EPTPurgatory Mafia
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
I am looking forwards to this. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Blazinghand
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I cant wait to get started | ||
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Blazinghand
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I'm basically a larger electron orbital because I'm excited. If were more creative I'd think of more puns but basically I can't wait for this to get started :D | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
You are still in training to be angelic warrior, so you take great care in everything you do. But should the need arise, you are ready to do what you must. Every night, you may target a player to stalk. When you do so, choose one of: demon, corrupted town, or town with dark powers. If your target matches your choice, that player will be killed. If the Angel of Death has been eliminated, you may (instead of stalking,) target a player to slay. That player will be killed. You win with the angels. Once there's no Angel of Death, are your kills "masked" like the Angel of Death's kills are? Or do people see the alignment and role of the people you kill? Same question about the Angelic Observer as the last existing angel. If you are the last remaining angel, you may (instead of observing,) target a player to slay. If the target is town and not the demon hunter, that player will be killed | ||
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Blazinghand
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OK it's fairly clear Demon faction doesn't have the ability to kill townspeople, on further reading. Sorry for the irrelevant question. | ||
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Blazinghand
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Blazinghand
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A thought from me: Angels have like 1.5 KPs atm, and that drops to 1 (since the acolyte doesn't always get a kill)-- their power goes down with time. Demons have 0 kps but fight us for control of the lynch (among other things), their power goes up with time. The demon team isn't able to kill people, but it's got a lot of ways to manipulate elections-- and these only increase with power as the game goes on. I think the early game threat in terms of scum are angels, and the late game threat in terms of scum are demons, just because they could pretty easily control these elections. The demons seem to have it tougher, but things will get much easier for them as the day goes on. Also, due to the secret vote, vote count analysis isn't available, which makes me feel somewhat at a loss. I think we'll have to hold people accountable to what they say, since we can't hold them accountable to how they vote. Although we have a variety of interesting blue roles at our disposal, our chief focus has to be on scumhunting and succeeding via lynch early while we still have assured control of the vote. So, a question: we should/can totally claim corruption when we get corrupted? This exposes us to death via acolyte, but also lets us see who's corrupted and get an idea of how many votes we actually have doing something. This won't really be an issue for a couple days, though. Another question: is it sensible at all to "try" to get angels or demons first? I haven't played in a multifactional mafia game before, and am looking for some advice here-- or do we just scumhunt and lynch who we find? Another thought: the possibility for masked flips from the Angel of Death really scares me. I don't like the idea of someone dying and us not having any idea who it was. I don't really know what else to say on that subject but I thought I'd bring it up. We will, of course, be killing Angels exclusively via lynch-- our "vig" type role, the Demon Hunter, can only kill townies and angels. Don't forget to breadcrumb everything, blues. Also, let's try not to lurk, and promote healthy discussion like the sick nerd baller town we deserve to be. | ||
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Blazinghand
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On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now. I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more. No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. | ||
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Blazinghand
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On January 04 2012 16:20 Bluelightz wrote: I think that the channeler should use his/her ability as a medic power as well as being a roleblock power Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability On January 04 2012 16:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff? Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" The Transport and Banish actions are resolved simultaneously before all other actions, and can consequently cause the other actions to fail. All other actions except corruption and the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action are then resolved. The corruption action is then resolved (even if the demon who is performing the action was killed the same night.) Finally, the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action is resolved (even if the sage was killed the same night.) The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing | ||
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Blazinghand
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On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype! My first thoughts on the setup; Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. This sounds super correct. Once the Angel of Death or Angelic Acolyte is dead, claiming corrupted won't result in instant death since even if the Angelic Acolyte is still alive, at that point it'll be easier to just Slay rather than try to pick up a KP via Stalk. | ||
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Blazinghand
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On January 04 2012 16:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 04 2012 17:19 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: You pointed it out in the post prior, I was reading the thread, and read the whole thread before replying to it, and his was the more recent mention of it so I hit the quote button on that one. I explicitly said don't share them unless you have a counter. I never said I was against sharing ways to fight strategies. If anything my statement implies that you should share if you have a counter to an angel or demon strategy. Don't twist my words. Ok, but imagine an alternate situation-- you don't have a counter to a strategy, but it's likely the angels/demons have thought of it. wouldn't this be a good time to share so that you can learn stuff? Like, I don't like the idea of a bunch of town players who aren't working together and pooling their ideas. That sounds bad. That sounds like a pro-scum town environment. | ||
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Blazinghand
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On January 04 2012 17:40 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: You seem to be harping on this quite a bit, and yet haven't posted a single demon or angel strategy. The closest you have come is posting the risk of claiming the corruption. So, are you just pointing fingers at me for no reason, or are you withholding information that in your opinion should be shared? Or do you have no idea of how they should play but feel like other people will know and should share it? Nice dodge-- respond with questions, yes, that looks credible. Look, I haven't thought of anything. But if I did, I'd surely share it with the rest of the town, and I encourage others to do so. Why are you so adamant about supporting a crappy posting policy? If I think of something, I'll share it with people, as should everyone else. I think this is what creates a good town environment. | ||
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Blazinghand
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Blazinghand
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On January 04 2012 17:59 Refallen wrote: Not to mention that while angels CAN kill demons, it hardly seems optimal for them. With 11 town and only 3 of each faction, for angels to kill off demons would just mean that town will have an easier time. I think that we can consider the scenario of angel and demon killing each other therfore, highly improbable. ^--- example of a good post that discusses an angel strategy. Would you deny Refallen the right to make this post, HofD? No, you definitely would not. But you can see how discussions of scum strats are important to the town now, right? It should be fairly clear. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 04 2012 18:03 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Say this was a normal game of mafia and you were town. Would you discuss the ideal ways to play as scum? If not, why do you think discussing the ideal ways to play as demons and angels is a good idea? Ah yes you're right let's figure out how to fight scum without talking about how they think or what they might do, and if we have thoughts about this and need help let's not get help from each other about it. Hey look when I put words in your mouth it sounds bad too! The point i'm trying to make here is that a healthy discussion of what Angel and Demons might use as a strat and what we can do to counter it is very important, especially if you don't immediately know the counter strategy. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 04 2012 18:04 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: How did that post improve our odds of winning as town? Please elaborate. ._. are you serious? okay, i'll explain. Refallen notes that angels may want to kill some townspeople early on instead of demons. In fact, in accordance with your "guidelines" he notes that given they will follow that strat, our response is to consider the scenario of angel and demon killing each other off as improbable. We know that Angels will likely be shooting to hit town and blues at the start as a result. This is good knowledge to have. How people to react to this will also be telling in later reads when we try to see if people's actions are consistent and reasonable. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 04 2012 18:00 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: They don't know who is town and who is a demon. They might do it by accident. Granted, only the angel of death can do it accidentally (until the angel of death is killed at least) and then we'd never know the difference anyway. Why aren't you telling Refallen off? because you forgot for a moment about your poorly-thought-out rule and acted like a reasonable person. Try to do that more and think about your "well lets never discuss what scum actions might look like in this complicated setup" rule less. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 04 2012 18:18 Dirkzor wrote: Oh right. My bad. Thx for clearing that up. Oh and by the way. Your whole discussion about sharing angel/demon strat or not is stupid. What Refallen wrote wasn't a strat it was obvious and its okay to post that. I think what HOD means is an elaborate strat that can't be countered by town - ei. a strat that will be advanced and give angels/demons a chance to win because town has no counter. On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote: No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. If your interpretation of HofD is correct, then HofD and I were never in disagreement. | ||
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Blazinghand
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on that completely unbiased note i'm off to bed | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 04 2012 19:52 Dirkzor wrote: Where does it say that it is hidden? The only thing you can't see is when people voted. Zbot seems to post who voted who. If they are in order based on time I don't know, but you should be able to see who voted who. Please correct me if I'm wrong here... I can't immediately tell, but I know an easy way to find out-- ##Vote Dirkzor | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Blazinghand
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People on my "post or die" list currently: Erandorr Layabout Mr. Wiggles risk.nuke These four players have made no posts since the game began. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 05 2012 02:21 Blazinghand wrote: The latter. Once I figured out how Zbot works, I'm going to wait until 24 hours after the Day 1 post, then i'm gonna go after someone who hasn't posted yet. People on my "post or die" list currently: Erandorr Layabout Mr. Wiggles risk.nuke These four players have made no posts since the game began. Day 1 began on 1500 KST January 4. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=6#112 It's currently 0223 KST Janurary 5-- so it's entirely reasonable that these guys were asleep, at work, etc. The game's only been going for about 10 hours. so far. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 05 2012 02:41 layabout wrote: The benefits are situational but the cons for me are too strong to justify public claims, at least until the acolyte dies. I agree with this statement. Although this won't be relevant until Day 3 (after Night 2, the first even-numbered night) it's a good thing to know. On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 1 Lynch. With 18 alive, 10 votes are required to lynch. Current votes: Dirkzor (1): Blazinghand The Day 1 deadline is at January 08 2012 10:00. (That's approximately 3 days, 7:15:47 from now.) OK guys! so the vote totally isn't secret :D Glad we cleared that up. For now I'm going to park my vote on a lurker. ##Vote: Erandorr Something I found out when casting your vote: Make sure you remember to put "purgatory" in your PM title.. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
I think we should lynch whoever is the scummiest. If Bluelightz feels scummy to you, put together a case on him and cast your vote like a man. If you think he's probably scummy, and that he'll contribute poorly (as he did in Student mafia), put your money where your mouth is. I can respect that. | ||
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Blazinghand
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Blazinghand
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I think our best opportunity for directing the Demon Hunter, if any, would be to present him with a list of targets he should be shooting at, rather than a singular target, or else we run into the purgatory problem. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 05 2012 03:55 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: On Bluelightz: I will go check out his filter in the newbie game to see what all the fuss is about. You're in for quite the ride. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 05 2012 03:58 risk.nuke wrote: Sup, I'll read the thread soon, I'll post when I have something to say. Welcome aboard! Revised "post or die" list: Erandorr Layabout Mr. Wiggles | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Here's his posts so far, this game: On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote: Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? Useless post On January 04 2012 16:20 Bluelightz wrote: I think that the channeler should use his/her ability as a medic power as well as being a roleblock power Only a useful post compared to the previous post On January 04 2012 18:37 Bluelightz wrote: I wont be available till around [unparsable timestamp format] This post actually says nothing On January 04 2012 18:38 Bluelightz wrote: EBWOP: I wont be available till around 1:00 AM GMT+7 finally succeed at saying "brb" On January 04 2012 18:46 Bluelightz wrote: But but but I can't acces internet on a plane! "brb" On January 04 2012 18:49 Bluelightz wrote: Sorry then XD "brb" Bluelightz has been remarkably, profoundly unuseful this game, without even making a nominal attempt to be useful during the 3 hours he was active. Maybe he's just bad, or just didn't have time. Maybe he'll come back in a few hours and stun us with his astounding post quality. Or maybe he's anti-town, either by being scum or by being worthless. I think he's anti-town. His posts speak for themselves-- they are his verdict and his damnation. Let's kill him. ##vote Bluelightz | ||
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Blazinghand
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Also, I am still waiting on some of you to start posting. Let's hear some opinions on the Bluelightz case. Here's his Student Mafia filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291067&user=235418 | ||
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Blazinghand
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Blazinghand
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On January 05 2012 04:15 syllogism wrote: If bluelightz doesn't contribute by the end of the day we can re-evaluate. I assume you mean an IRL day or something here right? We're not made out of time. Bluelightz had 3 hours, and he spent them making one-liners and posts that were literally meaningless. I consider this play to be anti-town. I don't care who does it-- you could have done it, and it would be anti-town. Then he bails. Given that he knew he had to bail in a few hours, he could have made a post with, well, content. But he didn't. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 05 2012 04:27 syllogism wrote: No, I meant the first in-game day, that is to say up to 72 hours. Get used to certain players not immediately establishing their innocence, because that is going to be the norm. Whether bluelightz is going to be one of them remains to be seen, but there are "veterans" who to some extent do it every game. The fact that it's anti-town does not mean the optimal play is to lynch them every game for it. If you can pressure them to contribute, that's fine. The #1 goal of a town player should be to establish their innocence. Look, regardless of whether "oh bluelightz isn't establishing his innocence" or whatever, just look at that filter. That is an unhelpful dude. I don't have a solid scumread atm, but we've got 3 lurkers and one guy who's posted like 6 one-liners and said nothing. This is fine because probably the lurkers are asleep-- but ideally we have a sweet day1 discussion and get some juices flowing. I will not stand for an inactive crappy town. I will NOT get used to players not establishing their innocence. I will hunt down and kill all the scum whether in doing so I earn YOUR approval or not. On January 05 2012 04:27 syllogism wrote:Also is Mr. Wiggles actually playing? I see he edited his only post to say "can't", but he is still on the player list. On December 28 2011 15:49 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Can't  Is Mr. Wiggles playing? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 05 2012 04:28 layabout wrote: Bluelightz i think...: he lacks confidence in his own abilities that he may try to lurk that he has not tried to help that what he has written makes sense from a "town that has to get on a plane and will have limited internet acess" perspective he has provided us with very little that can be analysed effectively i do not think that there you can make all of those inferences + Show Spoiler + "profoundly unuseful" and "anti town" BH at this point in time nearly any case you can come up with needs to forced and isn't necessarily helpful You seem to like throwing your vote around but do you really think that at the current moment in time everyone should vote for bluelightz to kill him, possibly end the day and let night actions happen? if i were the type i might accuse you of "trying to gain town cred by forcing a case based off of thin air." i will not do that.  If anything, I'm burning bridges. The fact of the matter is, I'm not trying to get town cred by forcing a case off thin air, because doing so is how you lose town cred. My case is solid as hell. The guy was here for 3 hours and made 6 posts saying nothing. This is unacceptable and I will not stand for it. On January 05 2012 04:31 layabout wrote: What i think we should do today: I think that we should agree within the next few hours to commit to lynching a lurker day 1. If people do not post day 1, or try to hide, or like make 1 post then dip up out of here, of course we will lynch them. However, it's possible some of the players who haven't posted are still asleep, and it seems Mr. Wiggles may not be playing at all. | ||
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Blazinghand
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It's that simple. It won't be hard for him if he's being town. step 1) be helpful step 2) blazinghand is no longer attacking you | ||
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Blazinghand
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On January 05 2012 04:47 syllogism wrote: This is a completely pointless discussion, but your case definitely isn't "solid as hell"; it's not even a case. You randomly chose one worthless poster so far while ignoring a myriad of other similar posters. A new player not immediately posting something worthwhile is pretty much a null tell especially when we've never seen him play town previously. Right now it's more fruitful to concentrate on people who we know something about and those who have posted a bit but only contributed superficially. Indeed, most players have only made random comments about game mechanics, which says very little to nothing at all about them. To be fair, BL is substantially more worthless than all the other posters. I get your point, though, that many of the posts so far in this thread have been relatively value-free. His just stood out as unusually bad. Do you think I should unvote him? On January 05 2012 04:48 Zephirdd wrote: Reforcing my idea above: It's too soon to search desperately for a lynch target. And trying to desperately lynch someone day 1 benefits scum more than town, in the sense that it generates chaos and almost always ends up in a mislynch. We have a fuckload of time, take it. Oh it's definitely better to be organized than disorganized. What are your thoughts on policy-type lynches? I like the idea of lynching all lurkers. I feel like it encourages the average town and average mafia player to be more active. That being said, in the ideal world this policy would never be instituted due to fear of it because it's an inefficient allocation of town resources. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 05 2012 04:52 Bluelightz wrote: Okay, im back guys :p Im gonna start responding to cases and make cases myself. Anyway, first I clearly said that I wouldn't be available till about now(Flight was delayed ;|) Anyway, my thoughts on lynching lurkers. It ends up lynching a townie usually Although that's certainly true in our experience, do you think the fact that such a policy exists increases the rate at which scum post and slip up? Is there any value to it, even assuming it often lynches townies (assuming, of course, that anyone would dare lurk in such an environment)? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 05 2012 04:53 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Lynch the person that seems scummiest, obviously. And still acquiring reads. We have plenty of time left, no need to rush the lynch. I'm not in a rush I'm just taking my time, voting people, doing my thang. You know. It looks like BL is back so let's have some fun with him :D | ||
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Blazinghand
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ok no srsly I want to know: do you think policy lynch for a lurker is good? What do you think of the people who have been hanging out in the thread not posting so far? who is the scummiest poster so far? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 05 2012 04:58 layabout wrote: key thing to note: the point is to agree to commit to lynch a lurker now this should force/encourage people to be active contribute and gain information. ideally there will not be a lurker to lynch, and town will consider establishing their innocence important to make "on par" as high as possible. I am not suggesting we lynch the least active player UNless they are lurking because if they are then they will have chosen to be a lynch target. If the least active player has posted and contributed then we should not lynch them. it is not about the actual flip it is about the day1 atmosphere + the other benefits that i shall not repost I do not expect an ideal outcome but i wholeheartedly believe that we could easily agree to and take advantage of this course of action as a town. I thought of this a while ago and have yet to come up with a flaw that makes it a bad course of action. + Show Spoiler + other than townies that lurk, who should be universally despised but not killed Information is something town always lack and try to gain and in this game information is more valuable owing to the AoD and Concealer roles that can deny information. I just want to note that I am strongly in favor of a "Lynch All Lurkers" policy and am notorious for A) being a suave, good-looking gentleman and B) invoking this policy to kill people. Obviously A) is irrelevant but B) is pretty important. I will actually kill you if you lurk. I'm crazy man! I've done it before and I'll do it again. Maybe nobody will support me! I don't care I'll still try to kill you. Obviously "lynch all lurkers" is subverted by "town players who are lurking for no real reason" but then again so is "winning games of mafia" so we gotta do what we gotta do, right? No lurking plz | ||
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Blazinghand
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On January 05 2012 05:03 Zephirdd wrote: Many times people talk about policy lynches but they are rarely followed. No, I don't like policy lynches. L-A-Lurkers will most of the time target a town, because if a scum is targeted he will instantly become "useful" enough to avoid the lynch. Besides, the amount of information a lurker gives on lynch is nil. L-A-Liars may be decent, but I'm yet to see a mafia that lied "to help town". For example, Drazerk claimed a retarded role on XLVIII in order to attract mafia shots. A mafia wouldn't try that, ever; However lynching Drazerk there would be wrong, yet he would be a LALiars target. So no, I don't agree with LALiars either. The purpose, though, of LALurkers isn't to lynch a lurker-- it's to be WILLING to lynch a lurker. I'm totally willing to do it. Once that is clear, all the town players and all the mafia will stop lurking. LALiars I think is situational. I spent most of Student Mafia 1 lying about asking the doctor for protection and it worked out pretty well. | ||
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Blazinghand
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On January 05 2012 05:08 Bluelightz wrote: Next, I think the people that are not posting should be chec what is chec | ||
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Blazinghand
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On January 05 2012 05:11 layabout wrote: one liner that makes a point that i had already acknowledged and completed disregards my wall of general statement about policy lynching that really doesn't give me an opinion about what i actually wrote >angry smiley here< can somebody give a well thought out evaluation? I have a great evaluation of LALUrkers 1) town demonstrates that we will LALurkers 2) nobody lurks 3) :D Worked great in student mafia, I don't see why it wouldn't work here | ||
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Blazinghand
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On January 05 2012 05:25 syllogism wrote: Yes and then someone was genuinely busy, you lynched him and he predictably flipped town. There were some actually scummy candidates available but no one but palmar was paying attention to them. Players were contributing because they wanted to, not because they were afraid of some policy. If townies all contribute and manage to establish their innocence, of course lynching someone who is lurking is a trivial decision. I commit to "maybe" lynching a lurker as lurking is a generic scum tell and I usually go after someone I know should be being more useful but isn't. I will not commit, on day 1, to lynching a person who is just lurking and nothing else points towards them being scum. I will not lynch someone to gain benefits in some future game, which is essentially what policy lynching means. Such a lynch is acceptable if I've no strong reads of course. Policy lynching is bad as it takes a long time to actually produce any results in the "metagame" and it's unlikely for the policy to have affect new players. If the game has mostly older players, we can lynch them based on them posting less than they should be based on what we know about their town play rather than attributing the lynch to some policy. This sounds reasonable to me. If I have a strong read, I will definitely pursue that instead of someone who's lurking, since, well, I have a strong read. And you agree with me then, if there are no strong reads (or even medium reads, let's say), which is to say, we can't find someone who's scummy, AND there's a lurker who's lurking, we should lynch them? | ||
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Blazinghand
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On January 05 2012 05:48 layabout wrote: I feel like this might not be working.., with so many not on board there is next to no chance of success. Can we agree to look at lurking as highly incriminating and scummy? In the likely event of rubbish cases on day1 can we agree to go for the lurkers? additional justification: 1)with 12 town 6 non-town and information denying cabalities information and an organised town are much more valuable than they would be in a normal game (they are crucial in a normal game with even a semi-comppetant scum) 2)in the likely event of a day1 mislynch, it would be preferable to have acheived a pro-town atmosphere rather than a safe-to-lurk atmosphere To be fair, not a lot of people have had a chance to weigh in on your policy proposal-- some people have responded negatively, but very few people have responded so far. I think that establishing an open, pro-town atmosphere should be a top priority for us. I think LALurkers does that. | ||
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Blazinghand
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On January 05 2012 05:54 Zephirdd wrote: I thought the general rule was Scummy > Lurking Scummy > Lurking > Townie on lynch priority order? Of course, if by the end of the day-cycle we end up with no real case, we just lynch a lurker. But I really really wish we avoided that. This town isn't with a bad atmosphere either; discussion is rolling, things are going. I just wish a conclusion on the MrWiggles thing(is he really ingame) and that other players posted more, but I guess they are in different timezones eh. Again, we don't really have "lurkers" until 24 hours in. In all likelihood these people are like "asleep" then "at work" and stuff, and so for the first 24 hours I'm not gonna push to bag on lurkers just because, well, we're not actually sure they're lurking. I will verbally harass them though so that they know i want them to post. | ||
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On January 05 2012 06:19 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Why do you think it is likely that the cases after 72 hours of time will all be rubbish? Why do you think a day 1 mislynch is so likely? Even random chance gives us a 1/3 chance of hitting some form of scum, and I would like to think we can do better than random. Technically, a day1 mislynch is a "likely event" if we lynch randomly since it will happen 2/3rds of the time. In any case, I think 72 hours is plenty of time to put together some solid cases on a scum player and lynch him. I just think that have LALurkers in our back pocket is a good move. | ||
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On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Just so you know, you should never believe an investigative claim because someone bread-crumbed it. There's no reason to believe it because of bread-crumbs, because there's no proof that they actually did what they bread-crumbed. Breadcrumbs are only useful when a player flips, because you know what role they actually are, and then you know that any breadcrumbs are likely to be sound. If you want a recent example of breadcrumbs killing the town, go read Mini Mafia X, where Wherebugsgo wrote jk three times in a post then claimed jailkeeper, and town believed him. The only person I think can legitimately breadcrumb and use that to support their claim in this game is the demonhunter, and only if they end up killing a complete innocent, or else it could be the acolyte. Also keep in mind that crumbs should be made before the corresponding day-post. I agree with Wiggles on this. Breadcrumbs are generally worthless to support claims, and are used after a guy's dead to find out what he did. On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote: This is bad. Killing a useless townie is almost never worth it. A useless townie is still a townie, and they still provide us with a vote and count towards our win condition. It's always better to lynch scum, not lynch someone because he could be scum but it doesn't matter anyways because if he's town he's useless. In fact, I was leaning town on you at the beginning of the game, but now I think I'm going to have to re-evaluate that somewhat after your recent "case" on Bluelightz. Being bad doesn't make someone scum, so it seems weird that you'd try to attack him for being bad. There's been a lot of talk in the thread so far (though granted, most of it is based on mechanics), so who do you think is scummy? You don't make a case for why bluelightz is scum, just for why he hasn't done anything productive yet. I don't have any very solid reads yet. The post you have quoted there is me telling a guy that if he thinks Bluelightz is scum he should make a case and cast a vote. This is a very reasonable statement. If you want to address my case against Bluelightz, go right ahead, but don't quote a totally reasonable statement and imply that it's not. On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Don't Hammer. While we don't have to worry about corruption until day three, we should still be careful of keeping the lynch under our control. Always check the vote-count before voting, and always vote in the thread along with your PM to ZBot, so that we can see when you voted, as well as who you voted for, before Zbot the count. No one should be hammering a lynch until later in the day if we can help it, as this will give us the most time for discussion and information gathering. Spot on the money. I have been in-thread-voting with my pm voting, and everyone should do the same. | ||
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Bluelightz deserves the case I have against him and deserves my vote. And if he fails to contribute and there are no other scum reads, and all he's doing is stopping by every now and then to say "brb" and generally confuse our blues, then he also deserves to die. | ||
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On January 05 2012 07:42 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Greens can be anti-town, but if you read them as green, you don't lynch them. If they're non-contributing, then you pressure them to contribute, like you're trying to do by voting Bluelightz. Then they should be forced to do something, and give you information from which to get a better read. We're in agreement about that. However, you have to do this with multiple players, because you still have to separate the greens from whatever scum might be hiding among them. In your case, you didn't sound like you really thought that he was scum, just that he was not contributing. That might be what's throwing me off about you, as in my experience, if someone wants to pressure someone to contribute, they just vote them, and ask them to contribute, not make a case and call them maybe scum maybe town and then say we should kill them either way. I'll help pressure, but I'm not going to vote him now, as he claims he went to bed two hours ago. If he's not back and posting by tonight, I'll vote him, until he gives us something. So basically I'm all good | ||
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On January 05 2012 08:26 Grackaroni wrote: KK I'm back. I suggested the Bluelightz lynch and it looks like BH took a lot of shit because of me. No I took a lot of shit because of me. You didn't contribute to my Bluelightz idea at all, except to remind me he existed and is bad. If you like the bluelightz lynch, make a case and make your vote like a man. If you don't like it, don't do it. You make expand and defense it and you do so with vigor. Being like "hey guys should we pressure Bluelightz" and then apologizing for it doesn't help my case against him, and it doesn't help him either. | ||
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On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote: No I took a lot of shit because of me. You didn't contribute to my Bluelightz idea at all, except to remind me he existed and is bad. If you like the bluelightz lynch, make a case and make your vote like a man. If you don't like it, don't do it. You make expand and defense it and you do so with vigor. Being like "hey guys should we pressure Bluelightz" and then apologizing for it doesn't help my case against him, and it doesn't help him either. Not to be abrasive or anything, I just don't think there's any reason to pull your punches. | ||
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On January 05 2012 08:55 Grackaroni wrote: I already explained this though he is my 2nd choice for a lynch over a lurker lynch. Both styles of play are anti-town but we should be lynching scum not just people who are being anti-town. Your case on BL does not prove that he is scum it just says that his actions are anti-town. That's a fair point. I'm staying on BL though until I hear a better case. | ||
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On January 05 2012 09:48 Erandorr wrote: The last time I looked the game was full already, didn't even realize I am in this until now. The biggest question for me right now is this: Blazinghand are you WBGs Smurf? Or his long lost brother, maybe? Yes clearly i'm WBG's smurf with thousands of posts | ||
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On January 05 2012 09:49 Blazinghand wrote: Yes clearly i'm WBG's smurf with thousands of posts This post is sarcastic. I am not his smurf. In case that's not clear. | ||
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what's all this about >.> | ||
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On January 05 2012 11:42 Bluelightz wrote: Blast me with questions now im available again!  !:/ it's not my responsability to make you do the right thing. At some point you will make a post with more than 2 lines, and when that day comes, the heavens shall be rent asunder in agony and anguish unlike any ever known before. On January 05 2012 10:22 Refallen wrote: Alright, I just woke up, first thoughts: Why is everyone tunneling the lurkish newbie? He is sooooo likely to flip town instead of scum. Just look at Election Mafia, and XLVIII. In almost every case, the lurking newbie simply turns out to be just that, a newbie, which explains his low-posting. We definitely do not want to be wasting a lynch on him. You claim "everyone" is tunneling the lurkish newbie, but I don't see anyone tunneling bluelightz. Like, I think that question is just... false. I have vigorously questioned him and voted him, but I don't think anyone else has done anything remotely like tunneling him. On January 05 2012 10:22 Refallen wrote: This is never a good idea. Even a town who is completely non-contributing serves as an extra KP before LYLO, and for most newbie towns, they will be sheeping the case which most people are already on, in effect letting town have an extra vote. We should never ever ever kill town "because he's useless at it". I'm not sure what you're going on about having a solid case. How does one make a solid case on someone who has 3 posts and told us they're going afk for a bit on the very first day of the game? Who are you quoting here? Cause I don't know who you're quoting. It looks like you might be quoting me but man would it kill you to say who you're quoting? In any case, Bluelightz is still being terrible. Hopefully he'll pick up the pace presently. My goal isn't to kill him unless he's scum. However, his current posting habits are entirely unacceptable. I will not stand for this, I will not sit for it. Not on a plane or on a train or in a house or with a mouse. | ||
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On January 05 2012 15:05 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: So how would people feel about lynching Palmar or Erandorr if they don't start posting more? Both have posted nothing of worth so far, Palmar was even active elsewhere on the mafia forum today, and both are known for doing very little as scum. Demonstrate to me that Palmar and Erandorr also DON'T do very little on the first 24 hours of day 1 when they are town, and I'm game like venison | ||
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On January 06 2012 02:23 Refallen wrote: Syllo, and others, I don't see how showing angels were a bigger threat than demons would paint me as anti-town. Keep in mind that the context of the post when it was made; all of us were discussing the setup (mainly because it was start of day 1 and it served as a topic of discussion.) Obviously the point about us not being able to tell who was demon/angel makes the whole discussion basically practically useless, but it provided a topic for us to start talking about the game (if you want useless posts, see palmars kite claim) With that said, I'll be reading through the thread tomorrow and posting who I think are suspicious. Right now at least my previous suspicion of Palmar has been assuaged at him posting and being his usual bullying town self. You are aware that demons have the same effective KP as angels right ._. every other night they "kill" two town votes with corruption, one by a townie no longer being able to vote, and one by the demons getting an extra vote. Look, just lynch hella mafia and our problem here is solved anyways. More lynching more win. On January 06 2012 01:28 Dirkzor wrote: I know Palmar already asked this, but how am I different from BH, HoD or Refallen who all focused on Angels being the ones we should focus on. What the dicks is this. You wanna go? I'll go. I'm fucking crazy I'll do it. "oh hey BH thinks we should focus on angels" BULLSHIT. I'm calling you out right now for bullshit. QUOTE ME. Oh no wait you didn't cause you can't cause I didn't say we should be all up on angels business and not be on corrupted business. "oh whats that blazinghand are you a sexy beast" why yes yes I am let me share some quotes with you, discussing what I intially discussed coming into the game. BTW most of this stuff I was discussing was not exactly captain helpful but on the other hand I wasn't captian wrong here. things I said: On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote: I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. "But wait blazinghand isn't this the same problem but with Demons clearly you are a moron" Whoa whoa no need to be quick to judge, my friend. Check this out: On January 04 2012 16:57 Blazinghand wrote: This sounds super correct. Once the Angel of Death or Angelic Acolyte is dead, claiming corrupted won't result in instant death since even if the Angelic Acolyte is still alive, at that point it'll be easier to just Slay rather than try to pick up a KP via Stalk. "Blazinghand you are weird what is going on here" Well, what's going on here is I'm trying to figure stuff out. In doing so I rhetorically pass across many positions before I come to one. For a while I was wondering if we should, if possible, be more worried about a particular faction. I thought it might be Angels, I thought it might be Demons. "Man I totally thought I had something on you. I guess I'm just dumb-- you actually have a nuanced position on this issue, huh. " Hey, no need to feel down on yourself. We all make mistakes. I think we can work together to do well here "oh thanks man. Just out of curiosity, how would you characterize your strategy RE: angels and demons in an unequivocal way? just for future reference" man you are quite the badger-er, imaginary person who talks to me, but I think this post best sums up my position: On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote: step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. On January 06 2012 02:29 Zephirdd wrote: @layabout They do that because new players fear making mistakes. However it is NOT the best way to approach it. Just keep an eye on Dirkzor later on, and don't lower your expectations. AKA. ignore his "noob claim". Bluelightz looks weird, especially his wishywashness on who to shoot. The principal is the fact that he is a new player and held a tunneling pretty damn well. Too well, as if he had three heads instead of one. You get my point? And to be honest, no point in making that hugeass list if he wasn't going to say someone is scum. I found Palmar's game fun. layabout, who would you shoot if you had to, and why? OOOH OOH PICK ME I'd shoot dirkzor because he's BSing me. Also being a noob doesn't make you bad-- i'm a noob and i'm incredibly good at mafia. | ||
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On January 06 2012 01:56 syllogism wrote: I would like to hear some thoughts on Grackaroni/tyrran/refallen, all of which I would be interested in lynching today. All have been around, posted nothing useful and I've small issues with the way they've approached the game so far. Grackaroni for going after bluelightz in a very questionable manner, Refallen for being supposedly very excited about the game and then disappearing (I also don't particularly like this post overall) and Tyrran for not reading in his haste to attempt to seem like he is contributing. Tyrran you have shown that you can be useful, do you intend to post anything at all today? OK I'm gonna be real Grackaroni has mostly been chilling I believe *I* am the massive nerd baller who put together the sweet original "case" (in scare quotes because BL had made like 4-5 lines of text so far at the time) against BL. Grackaroni, on the other hand, was sitting around being like "man maybe someone should make this case" and generally not helping. That being said, I don't think there's anything wrong with the way I've presented my evidence, against BL. I think I've done well. I'm gonna poke through the Grack filter and see what I can fine. (Grack n Cheese Grack and Field Grackalope Grackenspiel Heart a Grack Grack in Black oh the list goes on but Grackaroni is just such a good name) | ||
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On January 06 2012 02:21 layabout wrote:+ Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + has he not read the tl commandments? 3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING 4. THOU SHALL CONTRIBUTE TO THE and BH + Show Spoiler + 5. THOU SHALL NOT SPAM THE MAFIA THREAD Say what you want about spam, at least you don't have to open THREE spoilers in my posts to see this kind of BS. Cmon man wheres your respect at. I didn't even notice you calling me out the first time I read through this! Stop it with the spoilers it makes it hard to search your posts. Usually my strat is to open a filter then use Control+F to find stuff but if you put everything in spoilers I need to like go through and CLICK THEM ALL. It's like a game of osu! but instead of fun pop music and video game music it's just the strumming of my tears hitting the desk as I click all these dumb spoiler tags. | ||
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On January 05 2012 07:42 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Greens can be anti-town, but if you read them as green, you don't lynch them. If they're non-contributing, then you pressure them to contribute, like you're trying to do by voting Bluelightz. Then they should be forced to do something, and give you information from which to get a better read. We're in agreement about that. However, you have to do this with multiple players, because you still have to separate the greens from whatever scum might be hiding among them. In your case, you didn't sound like you really thought that he was scum, just that he was not contributing. That might be what's throwing me off about you, as in my experience, if someone wants to pressure someone to contribute, they just vote them, and ask them to contribute, not make a case and call them maybe scum maybe town and then say we should kill them either way. I'll help pressure, but I'm not going to vote him now, as he claims he went to bed two hours ago. If he's not back and posting by tonight, I'll vote him, until he gives us something. So it's been like 20 hours Mr. Wiggles. Where you at homie. Here let me bring you up to date on the Bluelightz situation: On January 05 2012 14:27 Bluelightz wrote: Okay, ill just give my thoughts on LA-Lurkers First, I don't think that lynching lurkers benefit town in any way. Usually it results in a townie lynched(BByte lynch in student mafia as an example) Also, Here's the list of people I want posting xsksc Cwave risk.nuke Errandor That is all. "Hey guys stop lurking plz" Meaningless. Might be helpful, but meaningless. In this serious of long posts he shows us he has no reads: On January 05 2012 20:45 Bluelightz wrote: + Show Spoiler + Okay my thoughts on the lynch I think we should avoid lynching a lurker unless we have no other option left. Next, my reads on people Blazinghand, Town: From the way he is posting I assume that he is Town Cwave, Null: He only has 2 posts so I can't determine his allignment yet. Dirkzor, Null: When comparing his post's from Mr.Wiggles Mini and Here he acts differently, In Mr.Wiggles Mini he analyzes other people's post, etc that is town Dirk. But here, he discusses Strategy,etc but this is a new/ diffrent setup "Blazinghand, my accuser, is clearly town. wink wink" On January 05 2012 21:36 Bluelightz wrote: Okay here's the continuation of my reads + Show Spoiler + Errandor, Null: Lurking cannot determine alignment Grackaroni, Null: His posting contains his case against me and discussing about the lurkers in this game. HarbingerOfDoom, Null/Leaning Town: His posting contains discussion of strategy for town, Discussing LA-Lurkers Jackal58, Null: 2 posts since the start of the game cannot determine alignment. Layabout, Leaning Town: When I compare when Layabout was town in Student and if he is town here his posting style is much the same being aggressive and starting discussion Mr.Wiggles, Leaning Town: His posts while not alot has very good content. Palmar, Leaning Town/Null: His post's generate discussion and he starts discussion himself. RebirthOfLeGenD, Null: Lurking cannot determine alignment. Refallen, Null: His posts contain discussion about the lurkers,etc risk.nuke, Null: Has not posted alot syllogism, Leaning Town/Null: His post's generate discussion and he also shares his reads with others. Tyrran, Null: While lurking a little I can't determine his alignment xsksc, Null: Needs to start posting Zepphird, Null: His post's discuss about LA-Lurkers and strategy Okay I'm done if you have a question about my reads go for it !Now, I have many town reads because this is day 1 and also people haven't posted much(including me) So, here it is! "I have no idea what's going on in this game." THE JOURNEY CONTINUES: see, back in the old country we called Palmar "fire hydrant"... why did we call him this you ask? no, not because dogs piss on him, but because he puts on the pressure. Let's see how BL responds. On January 05 2012 21:46 Bluelightz wrote: Right now, since we have no real option I would like to lynch a lurker. Hedge On January 05 2012 21:59 Bluelightz wrote: At this point, I would wait if xsk starts posting, risk.nuke too. But if they don't i'm all ears for lynching them I would lynch RoL right now because he hasn't posted anything when I searched for RoL post's in the thread I haven't found any post's by him Hedge On January 05 2012 23:38 Bluelightz wrote: If I was in that situation then no. Because I lack sufficient information to make a correct move. Hedge On January 06 2012 00:20 Bluelightz wrote: Hmm, if it was that i'd re-evaluate everyone other then RoL and if i find someone else scummier then him I wouldn't shoot RoL but If I didn't find anyone scummier i'd shoot RoL. Minor Hedge On January 06 2012 00:27 Bluelightz wrote: Okay, First, I Assumed that I didn't do the analysis of everyone Next, I would re-evaluate all the possible things Lastly, even though I still have null reads I dont really trust my ability to analyze people's post's. Though if there we're more post's I could make a more accurate analyisis Now, my if I would answer your hipotethical situation given with the analysis I had I would shoot RoL. Finally pushed out of hedge On January 06 2012 01:14 Bluelightz wrote: Okay i'll adress this post then go to sleep so, we have 2 days and 9 hrs from when I post this. Hopefully when I wake up I can make a more accurate analysis. Bails We are back in a classic situation of "terrible or scum? A GAME OF GROANS" | ||
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ERandorr I believe I have addressed your brotherly concerns. Still though, haven't heard from you in like a day and currently this quote-tree is the only posts you've made. where you at bro On January 05 2012 09:00 Jackal58 wrote: Palmar, Palmar. Where for art though Palmar? He only disappears when he's scum. You role Angel or Demon Palmar? "hey he only disappears when he's scum" *dissapears* >.> On January 05 2012 22:25 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: lol sorry, I actually just got home and forgot this game started. Initially I thought I'd just finish up Responsibility mafia then jump over here but that doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon. I just need some time to catch up. Alright, so you've had about 6 hours to catch up. did you fall asleep or are you just trying to get us to forget about you On January 05 2012 03:58 risk.nuke wrote: Sup, I'll read the thread soon, I'll post when I have something to say. ##Vote: Risk.Nuke You've got something to say now. | ||
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On January 05 2012 03:58 risk.nuke wrote: Sup, I'll read the thread soon, I'll post when I have something to say. ##Vote: Risk.Nuke You've got something to say now. | ||
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._. ##vote Bluelightz | ||
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On January 06 2012 03:45 Blazinghand wrote: Alright, so you've had about 6 hours to catch up. did you fall asleep or are you just trying to get us to forget about you ##Vote RebirthOfLeGenD WELL? | ||
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Hopefully this works as well as it did with risk.nuke | ||
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There's a difference between saying I wouldn't mind if he is town and it might be good to kill, just because even if he is town he could be useless. "Oh but Blazinghand I am grackaroni and have no understanding of nuance please explain" Oh, Grackaroni, you are always so self-derprecating. Here I will help you. If Bluelights is lynched and flips scum, that would be sweet. If Bluelightz flips town, i'm gonna mind a lot. I'm gonna be pissed because he played like shitty dick. It will still have been the right move to have lynched him based on the info we had, and even if he is town, you have to admit he's useless-- indistinguishable from scum and actively hurtful if he, somehow, lives to LYLO. So I guess my question for you, Captain Grack Sparrow, is, do you really think I'd be happy lynching a townie day 1? Or do you think I'm just willing to accept the consequences of my actions, like a goddamn man, make a case, like a goddamn man, and ACTUALLY VOTE AND DO STUFF. | ||
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On January 06 2012 04:18 risk.nuke wrote: syllo, I started the post about 2 hours ago. I share what I want to share when I want to share it. Don't try and control me and please don't try to meta me. All my games I have a different style because I play varying of my mood. Ok get into helpful mood mor plz | ||
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On January 06 2012 04:24 Grackaroni wrote: However the lynch is used for Information as well as killing scum, it wouldn't give the most information but more than I previously thought as a lot of people seem split on whether he is scum or not. I honestly don't care about what information we get as long as we lynch a scum player D1. If Bluelightz is scum let's kill him. | ||
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PPP | ||
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On January 06 2012 06:37 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: And that's the bare minimum, not the recommended amount. Seriously people, this feels like a maybe 8 player game with some random cameo appearances thrown in. Who are you addressing? Call them out. | ||
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On January 06 2012 04:56 risk.nuke wrote: Blazinghand quit floating around and write something helpfull yourself. Ah yes you're right clearly i'm not comitting, making cases and being helpful maybe I should be like you when I grow up. Oh no wait that's not convincing anyone. People in this thread are not oysters with their heads in the sand, man. | ||
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On January 06 2012 07:21 layabout wrote: i <3 this post What do you make of Grackaroni? What do you make of my "case" against him + Show Spoiler + this spoiler contains nothing of value+ Show Spoiler + Grackaroni is a largely noncommittal semi-lurk who deserves the scorn of women and the hatred of men. If he somehow made it into the history books, the world would look back upon him and shudder with violent grief. Your case against him is fine. I want to see what he does. Inb4 noncomittal Grack is noncomittal. | ||
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On January 06 2012 08:25 Grackaroni wrote: @BH Do you really hold him up to the same standards as other players that you would be pissed off if he flips town? um... what? I'm always pissed when we lynch town >.> | ||
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Jackal, at the time of this post, has not posted here in just under 24 hours. Mr Wiggles, at the time of this post, has not posted here in over 24 hours. xsksc, at the time of this post, has not posted here in WELL over 24 hours. Can we get some replacements? | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=117613 Last post at January 05 2012 KST. Jackal's filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=124528 Last post at January 05 2012 09:54 KST Mr. Wiggles' filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=99050 Last post at January 05 2012 07:42 Xsksc's filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=149333 Last post at January 04 2012 23:24 KST It is January 06 2012 08:43 KST currently. | ||
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On January 06 2012 08:46 Blazinghand wrote: Erandorr's filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=117613 Last post at January 05 2012 09:54 KST. EBWOP | ||
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On January 06 2012 08:43 Blazinghand wrote: Jackal, at the time of this post, has not posted here in 24 hours. xsksc, at the time of this post, has not posted here in WELL over 24 hours. Can we get some replacements? EBWOP | ||
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On January 06 2012 09:34 Jackal58 wrote: No you can't. Get over your self important self. I have a job. And it's not asking if you'd like fries with that order. When I'm here I'll read the thread and post my opinions and vote accordingly. When I'm not here I'm working or paying bills or fixing shit my wife broke. Mafia is not my career it's how I choose to spend my leisure time. Some days I have more of it than others. I will post every day. When time permits you'll be sick of seeing me. When work permits I'll post from there. Today was not one of those days. So get over it. How am I supposed to know if you've legitimately left the thread or not? On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote: - You most post in the thread at least once every 24 hours. Your role may also include other activity requirements which you must follow. Look I can't tell if you have a job or you're busy or whatever, but if you just disappear for 24 hours people are gonna wonder where you've gone. Mafia is obviously second-place to work, sleep, life, etc, but I'd appreciate it if I KNEW IF YOU WERE STILL HERE. That's all. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 06 2012 09:39 Blazinghand wrote: How am I supposed to know if you've legitimately left the thread or not? Look I can't tell if you have a job or you're busy or whatever, but if you just disappear for 24 hours people are gonna wonder where you've gone. Mafia is obviously second-place to work, sleep, life, etc, but I'd appreciate it if I KNEW IF YOU WERE STILL HERE. That's all. Like I guess it's early in the game or whatever, but that's why I thought "oh maybe Jackal doesn't really care and he's taking a break from the forums and didn't tell anyone." It wasn't like Bluelightz who said "Hey guys i'm busy, sorry" or anything like that. You just bailed. You bailed for over a day. I thought you were gone, and I figured "well we might as well get some new players in here so we can actually play." No need to go all lou ferigno on me. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 06 2012 09:51 Jackal58 wrote: How can I possibly let you know that? I have over an hour commute each way and work a 10 hour day. I leave at 6 am and get home at 6:45 pm. Some days at work I have absolutely nothing to do and am able to post here. Some days my services are required. You have no way of knowing by the frequency of my posts. You have to rely on the contents of my posts. And right now I'm calling Palmar scum. On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote: - You most post in the thread at least once every 24 hours. Your role may also include other activity requirements which you must follow. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 06 2012 12:58 Zephirdd wrote: By the way, we are lynching someone tomorrow. Day1 no-lynch gives little for town, where even a mislynch will help us start tracing scum much better. The Day 1 deadline is at January 08 2012 10:00. (That's approximately 1 day, 20:47:58 from now.) | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 06 2012 17:53 Cwave wrote: Your name in my excel had "invited by Zona, most likely some role with power due to that". Now it's "useless inactive". check out previous Zona games if you think that's how Zona works | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 06 2012 18:08 Cwave wrote: Well, one would assume that people who get invited are gonna be bloody active. Game has run for 3 days now. That's not what you said. This is what you said: On January 06 2012 17:53 Cwave wrote: Your name in my excel had "invited by Zona, most likely some role with power due to that". | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
I've completed skim #1, and I've decided to argue with Zephirdd. Doing read-through #2 atm, then gonna start crapping on Palmar and/or Mr. Wiggles. On January 07 2012 01:48 Zephirdd wrote: If there is one thing perfectly fine for a scum team, is to lynch an enemy Palmar right off the bat; ESPECIALLY day 1 where the most wrong cases occur. Absolutely. On the other hand, if Palmar is scum, it would be incredibly good to lynch him d1. I think being like "well is palmar a good trade" or "is mr wiggles tunnelling him as a scum to get rid of a threat" isn't the right way to go about it. The right way to go about it is to take a look and Mr Wiggle's case and see if it's legitimate. Why is that you ask? Well, as Drake would say, "you know you know you know.... you know" [/quote]On January 07 2012 01:48 Zephirdd wrote: Either way, we can also consider that both Palmar AND MrWiggles may be scum(two families).[/QUOTE] For all we know, Wiggles or Palmar are scum thinking they're hanging town while hanging scum. But, EVEN IF Wiggles is, say, an Angel trying to hang a Demon, none of that matters. If his arguments are legit they're legit and if they're not they're not. Honestly, I don't care what the exactly situation is, if Wiggles is scum we hang him and if Palmar is scum we hang HIM. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
EBWOP: On January 07 2012 01:48 Zephirdd wrote: Either way, we can also consider that both Palmar AND MrWiggles may be scum(two families). For all we know, Wiggles or Palmar are scum thinking they're hanging town while hanging scum. But, EVEN IF Wiggles is, say, an Angel trying to hang a Demon, none of that matters. If his arguments are legit they're legit and if they're not they're not. Honestly, I don't care what the exactly situation is, if Wiggles is scum we hang him and if Palmar is scum we hang HIM. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 07 2012 02:19 Zephirdd wrote: And this is what makes me want o lynch MrWiggles and not Palmar. I thought you wanted to argue, but it's more like agreeing. I'm not saying your overall point is wrong -- I still haven't made my read on the landmark case of Wiggles v. Palmar. That doesn't mean I won't point out poor logic. If it so happens that you make a mistake that makes your case weaker, i'm still gonna point that out. Townies being wrong is bad, regardless of whether we agree. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 07 2012 02:25 Zephirdd wrote: That's a misunderstanding from your part. I stated a few times earlier that I thought Palmar's (counter)case was better. That one post you quoted with poor logic is a response to Refallen's question "Would scum stick out their neck?" and I just pointed out that it's perfectly reasonable. Right, and i'm adding that in addition to that, it doesn't even matter, just figure out if the case is good or not and lynch the scum. Addendum: is it concievable that this is a townie on townie situation? Or do we think one of these guys are scum? I guess the question i'm asking is "what are the odds that Mr Wiggles is unintentionally wrong"? Erandorr: Every day he's hustlin hustlin hustlin hustlin hustlin hustlin Guys Erandorr is hustling us. How do you know he's hustling us? Well let us look at his filter. Step 1) He is inactive. OK whatever. Inactivity happens. I accept that. But it's not just the inactivity. It's the hustlin. Day 1 begins January 04 2012 15:00 KST. Erandorr's posts between then and becoming active: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 09:48 Erandorr wrote: The last time I looked the game was full already, didn't even realize I am in this until now. The biggest question for me right now is this: Blazinghand are you WBGs Smurf? Or his long lost brother, maybe? On January 06 2012 09:16 Erandorr wrote: Ya I probably should post sometime soon but I am really tired and want to sleep soon. If anyone has any question for me just go ahead, I will provide content of my own tomorrow. So, he shows up about 18 hours in and asks me some questions. Then, about a day later he stops by makes an obligatory filler post to not get warned. At this point it's unclear whether or not Erandorr is, in fact, hustling us. He's done a good work of keeping up the hustle, you see. Maybe he's just been busy and wanted his only posts to be unhelpful insinuations about ??? And then he becomes active. On January 07 2012 01:39 Erandorr wrote: I actually didn't roll scum. I just missed the start and don't seem to find a way into the game. I already stated with my brilliant 1 liner that I sort of dislike a Wiggles lynch and actually would like to lynch Palmar today. I don't quite know what to do with all the other crap that has been posted, since the only person I have a clear Town read on is you (YES IM TRYING TO BUDDY UP) So, Syllo here is like "hey guys let's go after E-dawg" And you know what E-dawg says? "Oh I just missed the starT" No you didn't miss the start ._. you were here and asking me if I was WBG, then dippped up out of here for a day, then came back and said "brb" and dipped up out of here for another 18 hours. Or rather, you did miss the start, but not in the "oops I missed the target" kind of miss, more like the "oh shit here comes that guy who owes me money i'm gonna dive behind this trash can" kind of miss. Don't be behind the trash can, E-dawg. On January 07 2012 01:55 Erandorr wrote: Out of the two, which is the one you would rather like to lynch and why? This would be an entirely acceptable post for a user with a history of putting on the pressure, and in fact, in context, may indicate some mad nerd balling. Is Erandor, in fact, a mad nerd baller? Let us see, oh wait, Zephirdd is obvious pro-Palmar. To be fair, it seems like Erandorr just missed it. That happens. On the other hand it means he gets no bonus points for a post like this. On January 07 2012 02:11 Erandorr wrote: Why do you think Risk is scummiest and not Tyrran/me? If I am not mistaken then Syllos reasons to rather lynch Palmar have very little to do with the arguments Wiggles brought forward. Ya, mistake on my side, sorry. So, I can see a couple possibilities here. 1) Erandorr's various odd posts have good context and he is a regular bro. 2) Erandorr is a scummy motherfucker and he is hustling us. Hard. This last post? It's more questions no analysis. Not inherently a problem-- I make posts which ask questions and don't analyze somehow. But those aren't the only posts I make. Let's take a look by contextualizing this with Erandorr's analysis posts. Oh no wait Erandorr hasn't done any analysis. He hasn't gone after anyone. He hasn't voted here in the thread. He is hustling us. E-dawg why are you hustling | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 07 2012 02:58 Erandorr wrote: Shut up WBGs Smurf, I am trying to get into this. WBG and were both players in XLVIII there is no way I am his smurf. In any case I fully anticipate you getting all up in people's business now and contributing, if you are town.less hustling more doing stuff plz | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 07 2012 03:01 Blazinghand wrote: WBG and were both players in XLVIII there is no way I am his smurf. In any case I fully anticipate you getting all up in people's business now and contributing, if you are town.less hustling more doing stuff plz Also I am substantially sexier than WBG | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
But do you honestly think a Town Wiggles would come at you like that d1? If so, then your E-dawg vote makes sense. If not, what the hell are you doing? Bury Wiggles. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Your actions over the course of the last couple days have done little to convince me of your usefulness. However, I feel that it has come time to weigh in on Palmar v. Wiggles. I'm going to present a concise case summarizing what I would characterize as the feel of these player's play so far this game. I will say who I think is scum. I will present my strongest read. And then I am going to vote. I will begin by opening Palmar's filter. Wiggles has done a reasonable comprehensive job of going after Palmar, but tunnels are dark and cause, well, tunnel vision. I will add in a tunnel here until instead of tunnels we have a big dome area where it's easy for everyone to see what's going on. It's not the best analogy, but you get it. Day 1 begins January 04 2012 15:00 KST. Palmar before Wiggles comes at him bro + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2012 20:33 Palmar wrote: I'm a kite! Meaningless. Nothing much is happening yet, though. About 18 hours and 6 pages later, Harbringer presents a "Palmar is Lurking" case: On January 05 2012 15:05 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: So how would people feel about lynching Palmar or Erandorr if they don't start posting more? Both have posted nothing of worth so far, Palmar was even active elsewhere on the mafia forum today, and both are known for doing very little as scum. Palmar responds with more trolling: On January 05 2012 18:36 Palmar wrote: I claimed kite, that's pretty pro-town? 30 minutes later, he makes his first post that isn't an obvious troll: On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote: As a public service I'm going to list up some stupid stuff going on in the thread: Anyone talking about demon or angel strategy either is one, or is dumb. It's completely irrelevant to the goal at hand. The discussion about whether we should be lynching demons or angels is even dumber. We're going to lynch scum, I don't care what kind of scum, and thinking we can somehow figure out what type of scum multiple players are is just... derp. Bringing this up almost looks like testing the waters/reducing the threat level of one faction (your own). The discussion about how and when a seer should claim is also dumb. He doesn't need to claim if he doesn't suck. Any good Cop can just make a case once he has a guilty, or make a case to save an innocent, and push it. Knowing the player is scum makes writing the case so much easier. @Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why? @Cwave: Dirkzor's point is essentially correct, however, the fact that he felt the need to correct people by specifically demonstrating demons are no less threatening than angels, instead of just telling everyone to shut up and talk about something productive is however kinda scummy. The fact he's talking about the night cycle doesn't really say a lot. Talking about this post: Palmar makes a couple obvious observations about scum and claims. His statements are correct and I agree with them. However, the person he's addressing with the "seer claiming is dumb" statement is Harbringer, whose previous post was like 13 hours earlier: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 03:55 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Some things to think about: If the town seer claims after finding a single angel we have a 2/3 chance of reducing their kp, 2/3 chance of making it much safer to claim corruption, and a 100% chance of getting a lot of good information after the angel flips. There are no abilities in the game which make the reads come back incorrect. The angels also DO NOT have a roleblocking ability, so they then have to decide if they want to target the seer and risk missing a kp if the seer is sent to purgatory or leave him be. Obviously this becomes much riskier if we have already lost our channeler. I'd be interested to hear if other people think having the seer claim after their first angel find is a good idea as well. The sage on the other hand probably shouldn't claim unless he has 2 demons identified. If he claims with only one identified, 0% chance of reducing kp or reducing the corruption ability, demons have a roleblock ability, angels can kill the sage to make demons a larger threat to town thereby reducing focus on them. Still gain information obviously, but overall seems like a much weaker play than the seer claiming after finding an angel. The demon hunter is not only useful against demons. His attacks kill anything that isn't an angel....meaning if his target lives and wasn't sent to purgatory, he has successfully identified an angel. However, since he poses a significant threat to both angels and demons, I don't really see much of a reason for the demon hunter to ever claim, except perhaps to avoid a lynch if he fucks up and appears scummy. So please don't do that. On Bluelightz: I will go check out his filter in the newbie game to see what all the fuss is about. And had already been shot down by several people. Palmar here is contributing on the surface, but really was just repeating what had already been said. He asks a couple questions, but it's not real pressure. Overall, this post isn't BAD. In the context of several scumhunting and pressure actions on d1 this would be a normal Palmar post, actually. He WOULD slap down a guy who's already been slapped down. Normally he'd call the guy out by name, but slapping a guy down is exactly what Palmar would do. Shortly thereafter, Syllogism says that Palmar is normally more active d1, and therefore is likely scum out of all the lurkers. Dirkzor says Palmar is stifling discussion. Palmar's retort: On January 05 2012 20:10 Palmar wrote: No, I want to shut people up who are talking about trivial stuff that cannot possibly lead us to finding scum, thus simply cluttering the thread with useless information. Creating noise over true evidence is not helping. But since you are around, please tell me, who would you lynch, right now? I will provide the same answer to you in turn. At this point, he enters the discussion actively. On January 05 2012 20:21 Palmar wrote: You see, I don't disagree with the notion that lynching Bluelightz is bad, I'm just not sure how well I like your reasons for it. I actually think it's unlikely he's scum, not based on the amount he posted, but rather based on what he has posted. I didn't actually want to post yesterday, the time I had to play mafia I spent finishing up resistance, decided to rather just read the thread this morning. It's interesting that you seem to want to paint the picture that I'm always active and useful in the first part of day 1, when you know from experience that I do often ignore the initial discussion. Do you have a specific reason for this? between risk.nuke and Grackaroni, I'd much rather have a look at Grack, since I'm actually willing to wait for risk's initial contribution. I would actually have no problem with lynching people like RoL or Jackal day 1. Hedging on BL. Notes that he can't really pick risk cause risk hasn't posted. Says he wouldn't mind lynching Jack or RoL for being experienced lurkers. No commitments or analysis. On January 05 2012 20:24 Palmar wrote: It's not the amount, but the content that I have a problem with. What I don't like is people discussing trivial things which anyone can take any side on, no matter their alignment. An example on this would be a discussion on how blue roles should act in a normal game, since that simply is just people giving their opinion on something that has no relevance to the game at hand. This is a fair statement. In the context of Palmar scumhunting and providing pressure, this statement wouldn't ring any bells. On January 05 2012 20:59 Palmar wrote: Reading steamship should also have been a perfect example of a game where I don't post or simply troll during the opening hours to you. I find it very weird that you somehow missed that, despite remembering the game when you need to use it to point out to me that there is a possibility we're both town. You know I don't metagame like that. If I don't post in a game it's simply because I don't want to post, I don't turn off messaging clients or hide from the forum when I don't want to post in a game. It's my problem I'm playing multiple games, so I should be the one at disadvantage from that. I want to see how you're thinking this game. Can you read Dirkzor's filter and tell me what you think about it? You don't need to conclude an alignment, you simply need to tell me what you think. A meta-defense. Meh. No comittments or analysis, asks for syllo's read. On January 05 2012 21:28 Palmar wrote: I was kinda expecting you to ask me something to continue the conversation. I'll just assume you did. Oh, I'm glad you asked syllogism. Wiggles seems to do this every game, regardless of his alignment, post thoughts on how the game should be played out. However, I don't get the same bad feeling about his posts this time around as I did in mini mafia x, if this is his new scum late entrance, it has much more to it than last time I saw him opening a game as scum. I'm actually leaning town on wiggles this game, his follow-up posts were more useful than what I'd believe scum wiggles would do, compared to what I've come to know him doing as scum. I think he should be one of the last people we lynch today. I agree with removing Dirkzor off the board as a lynch candidate, even if his opening post was kinda weird, his casual pointing out things like "that's an easy way to lurk", seems like a townie, rather than scum. What do you think about Blazinghand? So, there are two ways you can read this: 1) Palmar is town and trying to start conversations. 2) Palmar is scum and picked a topic he'd feel comfortable talking about by uh, literally asking himself a question. This is his first real analysis-- within a few hours of him becoming active. Labeling a couple dudes as town is pretty Palmar-town-ey to do. I've seen him try to scumhunt by confirming townies and process of elimination. I don't know why he's asking about me though; clearly the answer to that question is "Blazinghand is a sexy beast, I stay up late dreaming about him. <3" So, let's talk about this for a moment. I think Palmar is actually providing some real pressure on Bluelightz here. This is about 20 hours after Grack first fingered Bluelightz and I jumped on him like a dog on an ass-flavored biscuit. He does this as Bluelightz posts his first of many "hey guys I'm gonna use 20 lines to tell you I have no scumreads" posts. This looks normal to me. I'd ask Bluelightz this in the same situation. Here's where we get to the contentious part of the issue: Bluelightz responds: On January 05 2012 21:59 Bluelightz wrote: At this point, I would wait if xsk starts posting, risk.nuke too. But if they don't i'm all ears for lynching them I would lynch RoL right now because he hasn't posted anything when I searched for RoL post's in the thread I haven't found any post's by him A typical bad response from either a newbie town or a newbie scum. What would you do in this situation? He's hedging, but nominally answers your questions, but provides a reason that sounds like an excuse. He's very hesitant. I know what I would do. I'd pressure him more. I'd ask him "why not X player, why not Y player" and so on. I'd say "Is that your only reason?" and "you really believe in lynch all lurkers?" and "of the active players, who is the scummiest?" and "why so uncertain?" I'd berate him HARD for such a hedging response. I'd be all over him. I think most people would. Now, maybe Palmar thought this was an acceptable response, right? No, Palmar thought this was a crappy response. So Palmar decided to continue to talk to BL. On January 05 2012 22:24 Palmar wrote: So consider this scenario. You are now a day-vigilante, if you kill a townie, you will lose the game for town immediately, so you have to shoot scum, everything is on the line. You HAVE to hit scum with the information you have now. Would you shoot RoL? This question asks: "Are you sure?" And it does it in a roundabout, generally crappy way. This is not a good way to up the ante on an opponent. Not at all. The question isn't "can Palmar provide some sort of justification for this" because I guarantee you 100% he CAN. He's Palmar, he can justify anything. The question is, "would a town player use this as a follow-up to Bluelight's hedging?" I don't think so. I feel like this is a bad way to increase pressure. I feel like it's weird. It doesn't seem like something you'd do if you really wanted to lay on the hurt. On the other hand, I'm not sure why scum Palmar would do this either. This is just... well, dumb. Palmar has some interaction with Syllogism calling him dumb again, and we get this: On January 06 2012 00:55 Palmar wrote: Alright, so at gunpoint, your highest possibility of flipping scum is RoL, based on the fact that he has not posted. That's very... interesting. You have little enough faith in your actual reads that you would risk a game to kill off someone who you have nothing to determine his alignment on. This is pretty indirect and noncommittal for an FoS, which is basically what it is. On January 06 2012 01:12 Palmar wrote: Well, I'm not sure what I should be asking you, apparently you're happy with fencesitting through the lynch, throwing your vote randomly against some lurker. Your entire scumhunting process is "This guy has not posted, so he must be scum". And I have a problem with that. Don't let me keep you up, there's still another day. You better come up with something better tomorrow, even if it's only a measurement of your neck. There's the Palmar we know :3 OK SO Right here I'm gonna stop and go through Wiggles' filter up to this point, because right after this he accuses Palmar. I'm doing this because we should know what Wiggles was up to before he comes out swinging. Wiggles before he comes at Palmar + Show Spoiler + So wiggles is silent at first, then he comes out swinging with a big post. I'm gonna break it down for y'all right here. On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Hey guys, I was sick last night, so I didn't bother posting. I took some Dristan and went to bed and feel better now, though, so let's get started. First thing's first, I want to address a couple of posts that I saw as non-optimal play, and something we should be aware of. Just so you know, you should never believe an investigative claim because someone bread-crumbed it. There's no reason to believe it because of bread-crumbs, because there's no proof that they actually did what they bread-crumbed. Breadcrumbs are only useful when a player flips, because you know what role they actually are, and then you know that any breadcrumbs are likely to be sound. If you want a recent example of breadcrumbs killing the town, go read Mini Mafia X, where Wherebugsgo wrote jk three times in a post then claimed jailkeeper, and town believed him. The only person I think can legitimately breadcrumb and use that to support their claim in this game is the demonhunter, and only if they end up killing a complete innocent, or else it could be the acolyte. Also keep in mind that crumbs should be made before the corresponding day-post. Basic Breadcrumb info. Not a perfectly accurate representation of WBG's claim, which was substantially more nuanced than that, and was actually somewhat transparent given what he claimed his night actions were, but yeah breadcrumbs don't support claims they cover flips. This is a true statement and is something that needed to be cleared up. Contrast Palmar's post which says the same thing, but 12 hours later. This basic info is a null read as opposed to a "wtf" read because it needed to be said. After it's been said, it's been said. On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote: ] This is bad. Killing a useless townie is almost never worth it. A useless townie is still a townie, and they still provide us with a vote and count towards our win condition. It's always better to lynch scum, not lynch someone because he could be scum but it doesn't matter anyways because if he's town he's useless. In fact, I was leaning town on you at the beginning of the game, but now I think I'm going to have to re-evaluate that somewhat after your recent "case" on Bluelightz. Being bad doesn't make someone scum, so it seems weird that you'd try to attack him for being bad. There's been a lot of talk in the thread so far (though granted, most of it is based on mechanics), so who do you think is scummy? You don't make a case for why bluelightz is scum, just for why he hasn't done anything productive yet. Here Wiggles goes after me. I think his case is shitty, not because any fact he says is untrue, but because his conclusions don't match his assumptions. Or he just didn't read my posts. I call him out for this later, and will address this in more detail when we reach it in his filter. The rest of what Wiggles say is obvious and semi-obvious but correct strategy info that hasn't been covered yet. No read. So overall I don't think this post says anything about Wiggles other than that he's writing stuff. So, moving on from his first post: On January 05 2012 07:29 Mr. Wiggles wrote: What I was talking about there, was this portion of the quoted post: "it might be good to kill him just because even if he is town he could be useless." Living useless townies are better than dead useless townies, especially when we mislynch them. When I read that, I thought you were implying that you would be fine lynching him, even if he flipped town, because he's useless. That also implies you aren't sure of your read, or that you're scummy, because it's covering for the potentiality that he flips town and tries to defend against it preemptively. Feel free to keep the pressure on him, though, and force him to contribute. I'm not saying unvote him, I just wanted to make a point that lynching greens because they're useless isn't generally beneficial for town. The same thing ties in with voting for inactives because they're inactive, especially if you read them as green, which is part of the discussion on Lynch all Lurkers. Wiggles and I are arguing about my case vs BL. Here he makes some dumb arguments based on not understanding me. No read. On January 05 2012 07:42 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Greens can be anti-town, but if you read them as green, you don't lynch them. If they're non-contributing, then you pressure them to contribute, like you're trying to do by voting Bluelightz. Then they should be forced to do something, and give you information from which to get a better read. We're in agreement about that. However, you have to do this with multiple players, because you still have to separate the greens from whatever scum might be hiding among them. In your case, you didn't sound like you really thought that he was scum, just that he was not contributing. That might be what's throwing me off about you, as in my experience, if someone wants to pressure someone to contribute, they just vote them, and ask them to contribute, not make a case and call them maybe scum maybe town and then say we should kill them either way. I'll help pressure, but I'm not going to vote him now, as he claims he went to bed two hours ago. If he's not back and posting by tonight, I'll vote him, until he gives us something. More Mr. Wiggles being dumb. I think he just misreads all my posts. He makes a commitment here though, which is something that Palmar didn't. So that's all the posts Mr. Wiggles made before his accusation against Palmar. That's where the gamestate was when Wiggles decided it was time to come at Palmar. We have a few questions to formulate based on this: Does Palmar seem scummy to you? How about Wiggles? The other question to formulate: Is Wiggles' case legitimate? Let's take a look! Mr. Wiggles' Opening Statement + Show Spoiler + On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Hi guys. First, we aren't lynching Bluelightz today. Reading through his posts, I'm getting a heavy new-town vibe from him. After he got called out, and started posting, this is how I've read him. Some people are saying that his posts sound like he has a scum-team behind him, but honestly, I don't think any scum team would let him post some of the things he did. As well, being calm when tunneled is not a scum tell in my opinion, in fact it's probably the opposite. A townie knows he is innocent, while a scum knows he is guilty. So, if you're being tunneled by someone, in which case do you think you'd be more nervous? When you know the person tunneling you is wrong, or when you know the person tunneling you is correct in their read? That's without even considering that he claims to have been gone during long periods in which he was supposed to be pressured. First off, this is a bunch of BS. Bluelightz is playing like dick and at that moment had contributed nothing of value. That's not super relevant to the actual accusation though. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So, instead, I present to you all: Palmar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=87086 Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. Alright, Wiggles. Let's see what you got. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: For example, take this post: It's a post that's all over the place, and it's a post that contains no solid reads except that at that time, he didn't think that Bluelightz was necessarily scum. However, against everyone else, he doesn't provide any solid accusation. He says he wants to look at Grack, and that he would be fine lynching "people like RoL or Jackal". Notice that he doesn't actually say that he'd be fine lynching Jackal or RoL, just people like them, which makes what he said entirely non-committal. It's almost the same thing as saying he wants to lynch lurking vets without calling any out. In his following posts, he has still yet to provide us with any scum reads, or to even pressure anyone. All he gives us are a couple of town reads and questions for syllo. Mr. Wiggles finds this more non-committal and hedging than I did. This is indeed one of many unhelpful posts by Palmar. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Next, is his altercation with Bluelightz, which I find very odd. Earlier, Palmar noted that he thought "it's unlikely he's scum", but then he felt the need to try to pressure him. So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Pressuring Bluelightz to take a stance was fine, but the way in which Palmar did it was odd. Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). Also, notice that Palmar is pressuring Bluelightz for giving a list of null and green reads, when this is the exact same thing Palmar has done up to this point in the game. It's hypocritical. So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Instead, he acts rather timidly compared to the pro-town Palmar I know. He doesn't even end up answering his own question afterwards, even when asked to, refusing yet again to take a stance on scum. So, I think Palmar is scum for his wishy-washiness, failure to provide any scum-reads, and for his timid posting and interactions. This is doubly condemning in the light of his normal town play, which is the complete opposite of what we see here. This is our Day 1 Lynch. ##Vote: Palmar So Mr. Wiggles notes the same thing I do about Palmar's weirdness with Bluelightz. He also thinks the follow-up is bad. From a "Wiggles-as-town" perspective, there's two possibilities here: 1) Palmar got an accurate read of town from BL's wishiwashiness, or 2) Palmar is scum trying to look town. This is a fairly well-thought-out case, and somewhat coincides with my own observations. However, before I pass judgement, I'm gonna take a look and Palmar's initial response to this case. Palmar's Defense + Show Spoiler + Palmar's defense comes in two parts: Meta and his interaction with Bluelightz. On January 06 2012 19:30 Palmar wrote: So, Wiggles is wrong, but he's also wrong in a way that makes him scum. He's being intentionally and maliciously thick. Remember, despite the picture Wiggles wants to paint, I've posted a ton in the thread already. Wiggles is not a bad player, so he knows that none of the things he posted have anything to do with my alignment. What we need to look at is how and why he is wrong. This is loooong. But please read it very carefully, some of the most important bits are after the break. Look at this. For someone who has played with me extensively in the past, he should know by now that I hate the "create plans" and "discuss if we want to lynch lurkers" phase of the game, so most of the time I ignore it and really start posting once I think there's something to discuss. In addition, aside from XLIV where I tunneled as part of a strategy (I tunneled just to see how town would respond), Please show me an example of a game where I tunneled on day one. I dare you to go and find a proper tunnel from me on day one that isn't XLIV. I have a feeling you're not going to be able to. I usually just read the thread, talk to people, and then at some point I make a decision. Usually with less than 24 hours to go. Once again, before you think about what Wiggles is doing here, remember that this guy actually knows exactly how I play, yet he's trying to make it look like something else. Of course the post has no solid reads, it's a conversation with syllogism. Something I've found incredibly useful to determine the alignment of people I know very well (mostly sandro and syllo). In addition, English may not be my first language, but did anyone actually read the last sentence the way wiggles did? Cause it sure as hell meant I'm willing to lynch those two, not just people like them. Like, did anyone seriously read this sentence, and get out of it that I'm not fine with lynching Jackal and RoL? Maybe I'm completely off here, but this to me is stretching the point seriously. What I was trying to point out is that sometimes people make an argument for not lynching lurking veterans on day one, and I was saying that I'd have no problem lynching them, ie: lynching Jackal or RoL. Yes, I want to see where syllo stands. Quibbling and argument. The big thing to note here is that neither of these players have provided links to games that Palmar is in. I don't like Meta, and I don't know these guys well, so I can't really comment on this. I'll have to go read the other games to determine if this fits in Palmar's meta, and I don't even know if Palmar has a consistent meta so i'll have to read even MORE games if I want to find that out. If someone could hook me up with some links to Palmar's filters in other games that would be, well, nice. If not I guess I'll have to go look myself ;_; The second part is the interesting part: On January 06 2012 19:30 Palmar wrote: The complete misrepresentation (thanks Ver) of what happened between me and Bluelightz is the most telling thing from Wiggles in the game. This is what it comes down to. First off, Wiggles accuses me of changing my mind. That's dumb in the first place, because well... that's how you play this game. (notice, with this post I'm changing my mind on Wiggles). The best part is that Wiggles is actually not reading the thread, which is why his case is so heavily founded on attempting to create some meta on how I'm supposed to play on day 1, and trying to prove I'm not fitting it. I'll show you an example of Wiggles not reading the thread: Wiggles is speculating about why I decided to attack Bluelightz But there is no need to speculate, I said exactly what the deal was. I asked Bluelightz a simple question (who would you lynch?) and he failed to produce an answer other than "a lurker". After which I pressured him to answer using increasingly harsh methods. Here's more: This is awesome, when you want to create a huge-ass case as scum, at least have the decency to read the posts of the person you're accusing, that way someone might buy it. (clickable) On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote: So who would you lynch Bluelightz? I want to establish this, I did ask Bluelightz who he wanted to lynch, then I asked him again, to get him to clarify a target, after he failed again I created a scenario to force him to actually give me an answer. Remember, the scenario, is essentially just "who do you think has the highest chance of flipping scum right now?", which should be exactly the same question as "who would you lynch?". This is important because for some reason Wiggles is attempting to make it look like a bad thing people are saying who they would lynch? I have no idea how that makes sense. And what has the fact that other people answered the question got to do with me? I mean, let's ignore for a moment the fact that people telling us who they think are scum is usually a good idea for town, and just focus on the fact that apparently I am scummy for something other people did. That's just plain wrong. You can never deduce anything about anyone's alignment from other people's actions. Pressure votes are useless, that's dumb as shit Wiggles. I have a feeling Bluelightz is scum, but until I actually have time to create a case to prove it, the vote doesn't actually do anything because it's not backed up with anything. Actually, I invite anyone in this thread to read the entire exchange, I'll provide a link: Clicky! And see if they get the same read on this as Wiggles. He accuses me of not attacking bad posts, when I created the entire scenario just to drag up an answer from Bluelightz, he accuses me of not pressuring.... well, read the next 2 pages, and see what conclusion you come to. No you are, because you cannot possibly be this bad. ##Vote: Mr. Wiggles Palmar points out some SERIOUS flaws in Wiggles' case. However, he still has some serious issues going on-- even though Palmar didn't pull the dayvig situation straight out of his ass, he still used it instead of better pressure moves. His issue here wasn't really lack of pressure, it was lack of REAL pressure, or helpful pressure. ._. So what do you think of all this, Blazinghand? I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case. I have no reason whatosever to believe Wiggles is town based on the way he put together his case and the fact that he has failed to contribute in a meaningful fashion besides erecting a 5-lane tollbooth-assisted 2-way tunnel at Palmar. All that being said, I think there's something up with Palmar. I don't know why he's acting so weird, and it gives me the heebie jeebies. Palmar comes off as scummy. I'm not taking into account his contributions after the Wiggles case, nor am I taking into account Wiggles' contributions after the initial response to Palmar's defense-- if Palmar is scum, it should be clear from his actions before Wiggles began putting together his tunnel. Also, most of that stuff has happened WHILE I was writing this post. It's kind of a long post. I don't like his read on risk.nuke; I don't like the FASHION in which he pressure Bluelightz-- that is to say, ineffectively, noncommittally, and generally unhelpfully; and I don't like the defense of said pressure. The one thing I'll say about his actions post-Wiggles-Accusation (besides his initial defense) since there's a lot of WIFOM rolling around based on whether or not he'll be more aggressive, etc-- is that I don't understand why he changed his vote to Erandorr. I really don't. And that's the reason I'm voting Palmar instead of Erandorr at the moment. I GET IT that Erandorr looks scummy. *I* think he looks scummy. But Palmar himself admits that given that he's town, he's horribly surprised that Wiggles would tunnel him like this. He even said "There's no way you're this bad" or something along those lines. It makes no sense. None at all. The fact that it came right after my comprehensive case on Erandorr doesn't mean anything either-- maybe he was legitimately convinced, but he could have been looking for another wagon to hop on. So why the sudden change, Palmar? Have you no explanation for me? You were so sure of Mr. Wiggles! *shakes head* ##Vote Palmar | ||
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@blaz, wiggles made a terrible case, but last 2 times he was scum i got him day 1, so i dont think hed have the balls to do this day 1. erandorr not playing is very good reason to think hes scum.[/qupte] Wiggles' case had some serious issues in it. Address mine in the above post. You are currently scummier to be than Erandorr. If you are town, exonerate yourself in my eyes, please. | ||
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Fixed tags: On January 07 2012 07:52 Palmar wrote: @blaz, wiggles made a terrible case, but last 2 times he was scum i got him day 1, so i dont think hed have the balls to do this day 1. erandorr not playing is very good reason to think hes scum. Wiggles' case had some serious issues in it. Address mine in the above post. You are currently scummier to be than Erandorr. If you are town, exonerate yourself in my eyes, please. | ||
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On January 07 2012 07:47 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Well, it appears as though xsksc is no longer playing this game, as his last post was: January 04 2012 23:24. I don't like lynching lurkers, but from what I know of Erandorr, his lurking makes him likely to be scum, and I do like lynching scum. Barring him showing an actual commitment to playing, I would be fine with lynching him. On risk.nuke, his playstyle seems to vary a good deal between games, so I am not sold on him being scum yet and would certainly like to hear a bit more from him before deciding whether or not I think he is worth a lynch. Tyrran Tyrran's play seems very different from his play in steamship where he was town. He is being much less aggressive so far, and usually people are more aggressive as town than they are as scum. I think he would make a fine lynch for the day. My only qualm with lynching him is that he hasn't interacted with other players much so far, so his flip will be less revealing, but I like our odds of hitting scum here. My vote will be on him for now. His steamship filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=57176 His filter so far this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=57176 ##Vote: Tyrran So you are voting Tyrran based on Meta instead of Erandorr who you think is likely to be scum due to being a lurker? | ||
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On January 07 2012 08:18 Palmar wrote: give me an example of you being on the receiving end oh wait you cant Does anyone have a series of links to games Palmar's been town/scum in or do i have to do this manually | ||
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I'm just assuming you're good. Would you like to respond to my case? | ||
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Or maybe they're trying to get those wagons started so they look safe, or are waiting for them to start. Examine Palmar's responses following my case. Do these look like legitimate responses to you? No he's basically dicking around. My vote is staying on him until he gives me an adequate response. | ||
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On January 07 2012 08:48 Palmar wrote: youre not getting detailed response. im posting on phone and your case was poste 23ish my time or something when im home im going to sleep. I can wait. I can empathize with the horrors of attempting to post via phone. I will be awake when you wake up, probably, and I'll definitely be awake in the hours leading up to the lynch deadline. It's fairly late in Europe right now, ok-- but will you adequately respond to my post when you get the chance? Because I've heard good things about defending yourself. | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: The Day 1 deadline is at January 08 2012 10:00. (That's approximately 1 day, 1:02:42 from now.) We've got 25 hours. Please, tell me why I'm terrible. | ||
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On January 07 2012 09:10 layabout wrote: It may not be your style to post a lot day1 but perhaps your could elaborate. Other than relative inactivity what make Erandorr scum? The fact that every post he makes is hustlin us? | ||
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On January 07 2012 09:12 Grackaroni wrote: @HoD + Show Spoiler + If someone beside HoD is reading this, the question I am answering is "why I thought Bluelightz play as scum would be bad for town?" I really hate the quote formating inside of the spoiler so I'm going to avoid posting long quotes from student. On December 14 2011 09:44 Bluelightz wrote: sorry just didnt feel like posting (>_<) On December 08 2011 00:05 Bluelightz wrote: PS: if i don't post much it's because I don't really have a good scumread on anyone if I do I'll post my analysis On December 14 2011 15:57 Bluelightz wrote: sorry BH, didnt notice your case till now so, ##Vote: Tunkeg BH, is there any other of his posts that make you have a scumread on him? also, after looking @ BHs case m mind is decided for this day On December 08 2011 18:57 Bluelightz wrote: ey215 is leaning scum, when he says I Am Town but then, I quote Grackaroni On December 07 2011 03:43 Grackaroni wrote: NOBODY IS A CONFIRMED TOWNIE He openly showed no issue with lurking He openly sheep's other people Further when he posts his own cases they always end up being null. sometimes he took completely random parts of our posts out and used them for the main basis of his read. Maybe he did most of these things purely because he was scum but I think he could at least realize that his play wasn't resembling pro-town play Anyways if you really want to I could go over everyone one of his posts from the last game and tell you what bugged me about them. But the point is that I should not have based his entire play off of only one game from him as scum, and I shouldn't have brought my annoyance with his last game's performance into this game either. Now I get to focus on the game that is actually being played instead of going over this old one. As for Palmar I don't think the meta can conclude that he is scum and he seems much more willing to contribute than errandor. palmar could be our best scumhunter and I don't think a day1 meta read should be enough to risk killing one of our best players Besides people are downplaying his scum play so somebody explain to me why people keep saying that it will be scary if Palmar is scum? I'm going to assume that your issue is the sheeping and not that the case is built off of meta because you are voting for Errandor because of activity meta while criticizing other people for doing the same thing to you. I'm just gonna note that Errandor's level of activity, while unacceptably low, is not the issue. The issue is that he is keeping up the hustle on us | ||
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but I've got my eye on you ##vote E-dawg | ||
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Man don't you read my shit + Show Spoiler + On January 07 2012 02:45 Blazinghand wrote: On January 07 2012 02:25 Zephirdd wrote: That's a misunderstanding from your part. I stated a few times earlier that I thought Palmar's (counter)case was better. That one post you quoted with poor logic is a response to Refallen's question "Would scum stick out their neck?" and I just pointed out that it's perfectly reasonable. Right, and i'm adding that in addition to that, it doesn't even matter, just figure out if the case is good or not and lynch the scum. Addendum: is it concievable that this is a townie on townie situation? Or do we think one of these guys are scum? I guess the question i'm asking is "what are the odds that Mr Wiggles is unintentionally wrong"? Erandorr: Every day he's hustlin hustlin hustlin hustlin hustlin hustlin Guys Erandorr is hustling us. How do you know he's hustling us? Well let us look at his filter. Step 1) He is inactive. OK whatever. Inactivity happens. I accept that. But it's not just the inactivity. It's the hustlin. Day 1 begins January 04 2012 15:00 KST. Erandorr's posts between then and becoming active: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 09:48 Erandorr wrote: The last time I looked the game was full already, didn't even realize I am in this until now. The biggest question for me right now is this: Blazinghand are you WBGs Smurf? Or his long lost brother, maybe? On January 06 2012 09:16 Erandorr wrote: Ya I probably should post sometime soon but I am really tired and want to sleep soon. If anyone has any question for me just go ahead, I will provide content of my own tomorrow. So, he shows up about 18 hours in and asks me some questions. Then, about a day later he stops by makes an obligatory filler post to not get warned. At this point it's unclear whether or not Erandorr is, in fact, hustling us. He's done a good work of keeping up the hustle, you see. Maybe he's just been busy and wanted his only posts to be unhelpful insinuations about ??? And then he becomes active. On January 07 2012 01:39 Erandorr wrote: I actually didn't roll scum. I just missed the start and don't seem to find a way into the game. I already stated with my brilliant 1 liner that I sort of dislike a Wiggles lynch and actually would like to lynch Palmar today. I don't quite know what to do with all the other crap that has been posted, since the only person I have a clear Town read on is you (YES IM TRYING TO BUDDY UP) So, Syllo here is like "hey guys let's go after E-dawg" And you know what E-dawg says? "Oh I just missed the starT" No you didn't miss the start ._. you were here and asking me if I was WBG, then dippped up out of here for a day, then came back and said "brb" and dipped up out of here for another 18 hours. Or rather, you did miss the start, but not in the "oops I missed the target" kind of miss, more like the "oh shit here comes that guy who owes me money i'm gonna dive behind this trash can" kind of miss. Don't be behind the trash can, E-dawg. On January 07 2012 01:55 Erandorr wrote: Out of the two, which is the one you would rather like to lynch and why? This would be an entirely acceptable post for a user with a history of putting on the pressure, and in fact, in context, may indicate some mad nerd balling. Is Erandor, in fact, a mad nerd baller? Let us see, oh wait, Zephirdd is obvious pro-Palmar. To be fair, it seems like Erandorr just missed it. That happens. On the other hand it means he gets no bonus points for a post like this. On January 07 2012 02:11 Erandorr wrote: Why do you think Risk is scummiest and not Tyrran/me? If I am not mistaken then Syllos reasons to rather lynch Palmar have very little to do with the arguments Wiggles brought forward. Ya, mistake on my side, sorry. So, I can see a couple possibilities here. 1) Erandorr's various odd posts have good context and he is a regular bro. 2) Erandorr is a scummy motherfucker and he is hustling us. Hard. This last post? It's more questions no analysis. Not inherently a problem-- I make posts which ask questions and don't analyze somehow. But those aren't the only posts I make. Let's take a look by contextualizing this with Erandorr's analysis posts. Oh no wait Erandorr hasn't done any analysis. He hasn't gone after anyone. He hasn't voted here in the thread. He is hustling us. E-dawg why are you hustling | ||
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On January 07 2012 09:18 Grackaroni wrote: Errandor continually comes into the thread and makes a post promising content to avoid modkill and disappears, the same goes for RoL as well but the only difference is that Errandor has a meta for lurking as scum. I'm glad someone here can see reason. In other words, E-dawg is hustling us. He is keeping up the hustle. Check out my post above, or 7 hours ago, for more details. | ||
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On January 07 2012 09:16 Blazinghand wrote: No you didn't miss the start ._. you were here and asking me if I was WBG, then dippped up out of here for a day, then came back and said "brb" and dipped up out of here for another 18 hours. Or rather, you did miss the start, but not in the "oops I missed the target" kind of miss, more like the "oh shit here comes that guy who owes me money i'm gonna dive behind this trash can" kind of miss. Don't be behind the trash can, E-dawg. EBWOP: Erandorr owes the other guy money, rather than the other guy owing Erandorr money in this hypothetical. If Erandorr were the creditor obviously he wouldn't be hiding behind a dumpster. | ||
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Hell Syllo what's the deal with your vote? It.s.. SYLLY OK seriously though are we just not voting or whats the deal here | ||
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So Grack what are your thoughts on Mr. Wiggles. If you want mine you can refer to my enormous Wiggls vs Palmar post but I want to know what you think. If you already posted and I somehow missed it link me up. My thoughts on the Wigglemeister: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=27#532 | ||
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YOU ARE ALWAYS PUSHING RISK NUKE WHY ARE YOU VOTING PALMAR WITHOUT ANNOUNCING IT IN THE THREAD | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 1 Lynch. With 18 alive, 10 votes are required to lynch. Current votes: Erandorr (3): Palmar (3): Mr. Wiggles, Jackal58, Refallen, Grackaroni (1): layabout Mr. Wiggles (1): Zephirdd, RebirthOfLeGenD (1): risk.nuke (1): Tyrran (1): HarbingerOfDoom Bluelightz (0): Dirkzor (0): HarbingerOfDoom (0): The Day 1 deadline is at January 08 2012 10:00. (That's approximately 1 day, 0:20:25 from now.) On January 06 2012 21:47 Refallen wrote: What I want to ask wiggles and jackal is this; obviously, the argument that he was acting unusually (in the sense that he was acting different because of low activity posting and lack of aggressiveness) no longer holds. And palmar has offered a spirited defence of himself, something i noticed he did as town too in tlxlvii. With that in mind, would you still vote for him, and why? Because right now, I am much more comfortable in lynching risk.nuke than Palmar. On January 07 2012 01:55 Refallen wrote: Would someone really end up asking this? And I thought I found something DEEP and USEFUL too =( Then Zeph, would you prefer a lynch of risk.nuke to Palmar//Wiggles right now? WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON SILENT SCUM VOTE JUMP WAGON HAMMER ##VOTE REFALLEN I CAUGHT YOU | ||
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On January 06 2012 21:47 Refallen wrote: What I want to ask wiggles and jackal is this; obviously, the argument that he was acting unusually (in the sense that he was acting different because of low activity posting and lack of aggressiveness) no longer holds. And palmar has offered a spirited defence of himself, something i noticed he did as town too in tlxlvii. With that in mind, would you still vote for him, and why? Because right now, I am much more comfortable in lynching risk.nuke than Palmar. This with your vote on Palmar for SEVERAL DAYS? ಠ_ಠ How is anyone buying this guys BS "oh hey guys yeah i'm just gonna park my vote here on Palmar while pushing risk.nuke." Look, that's just crappy play. If you think risk.nuke is scum, but aren't sure, I get why you'd not want to vote him quite yet. But if you are assured he is scummier than Palmar? And you're pressuring people to vote him instead of Palmar? Why would you leave your vote on Palmar? It makes no sense. No sir that will not buy me off. Not at all. On January 07 2012 10:00 Refallen wrote: And yes, right now I do want to lynch risk.nuke rather than Palmar. I'm seeing no harm in leaving my vote on him for now though, since Palmar only has four, hardly close to being scum hammered. (And because I'm lazy to PM ZBot on my IPhone last night lolol) Look even after I call him out he tries to leave his vote on Palmar. What do you think is going on here gentlemen? WHAT DO YOU THINK. You see no harm in leaving your vote on him now, and you're too lazy... to PM Zbot... on your iphone... LAST NIGHT? It's not last night right now, it's right NOW right now. On January 07 2012 10:11 Refallen wrote: My bad. I've only played 2 games so far which involved a voting thread so it didn't hit me to announce my votes before voting. Mmm, you're probably right, but I think the fact that there are two scum teams would have made it harder for that to happen. And yes, right now I don't mind lynching Palmar, but I do rather lynch risknuke. With that said ##UNVOTE PALMAR ##VOTE RISK.NUKE Oh hey you know how many games before I've played which involved a voting thread? You know what I'm not even gonna get involved in this. This isn't even a game with a voting thread. Everything's done via PMs. In a game with a voting thread, if you forget to say you voted in the main thread everyone knows anyways when and who you voted. In a game like this? that is not the case. We've explicitly said you should announce votes in here and you have blatantly disregarded this, despite the fact that other people were announcing their votes. You know what Refallen everything you do here just makes you look scummier and I don't know why everyone else is blind to the truth. Why would you not announce your vote? Why, after admitting you think Palmar is not as scummy as Risk, do you NOT change the vote? Why would you need to be strongarmed into voting for him? You think you have pulled the wool over everyone's eyes with your placations. But you are wrong. See, what Refallen doesn't know is that we are not objects whereby mechanical advantage, pressure, or cutting actions are applied. We are not those basic items that seperates humanity from apes. We do not need to be sharpened. I am telling you, Refallen-- we are not tools. I for one do not fall for your soothsaying. Why so slow to vote risknuke? WHY | ||
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Reading through your filter it seems like you're acting fairly town. ._. You got some reads and pushed them in a reasonable fashion, and respond to people who talk to you. I have no idea why you're so bad at voting and knowing where to put your vote. I'm either severely disappointed in your town play or largely convinced by your scum play. OK so, I think you MIGHT be scum, but you also might be town. I'm substantially more sure of E-dawg being scum because he's hustling us but I still demand explanations for your actions post me-calling-you-out. And if they are insufficient I will devour you. ##Vote: Erandorr Oh hey blazinghand whats this is your vote announced in the thread? yeah man it is oh that's cool that seems like a pro-town thing to do yeah i would say so why would you ever not announce your vote in the thread? dunno. | ||
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On January 07 2012 10:55 Grackaroni wrote: Refallen posted his suspicions of Palmar many times throughout his filter so I don't think this was any kind of underhanded scum tactic just an honest mistake. >.> On January 07 2012 10:49 layabout wrote: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha In all seriousness we need to be choosing our lynch traget between Erandorr and risk.nuke. I shall explain why i think this in the morning MAN ok look at the time I put my vote on him he deserved it and you know it On January 07 2012 11:00 risk.nuke wrote: Slowly and steadily I'm beeing raised to the top, scumagenda *cough* Ah yes clearly the scum conspiracy to bring you to "the top" with 2 votes has come to fruition i'm off for a couple of hours; dinner and that sort of thing. | ||
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As damning as the arguments are against risk, his responses have been evasive, poorly thought out, and overall shitty. risk.nuke, I'm gonna hammer you in a moment. In the off chance that you're town, I'm gonna give you 1 hour and 30 minutes (leaving 20 minutes of breathing room) before I hammer you. Make your cases and write down everything you can about your reads, who you think is scum, etc-- it will be your last contribution, perhaps a chance at redemption for your d1 play if this turns out to be a mislynch. OR, you're scum and you'll just die. :D | ||
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pm to: zbot subject: purgatory body: ##Vote Erandorr | ||
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On January 07 2012 02:45 Blazinghand wrote: Right, and i'm adding that in addition to that, it doesn't even matter, just figure out if the case is good or not and lynch the scum. Addendum: is it concievable that this is a townie on townie situation? Or do we think one of these guys are scum? I guess the question i'm asking is "what are the odds that Mr Wiggles is unintentionally wrong"? Erandorr: Every day he's hustlin hustlin hustlin hustlin hustlin hustlin Guys Erandorr is hustling us. How do you know he's hustling us? Well let us look at his filter. Step 1) He is inactive. OK whatever. Inactivity happens. I accept that. But it's not just the inactivity. It's the hustlin. Day 1 begins January 04 2012 15:00 KST. Erandorr's posts between then and becoming active: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 09:48 Erandorr wrote: The last time I looked the game was full already, didn't even realize I am in this until now. The biggest question for me right now is this: Blazinghand are you WBGs Smurf? Or his long lost brother, maybe? On January 06 2012 09:16 Erandorr wrote: Ya I probably should post sometime soon but I am really tired and want to sleep soon. If anyone has any question for me just go ahead, I will provide content of my own tomorrow. So, he shows up about 18 hours in and asks me some questions. Then, about a day later he stops by makes an obligatory filler post to not get warned. At this point it's unclear whether or not Erandorr is, in fact, hustling us. He's done a good work of keeping up the hustle, you see. Maybe he's just been busy and wanted his only posts to be unhelpful insinuations about ??? And then he becomes active. So, Syllo here is like "hey guys let's go after E-dawg" And you know what E-dawg says? "Oh I just missed the starT" No you didn't miss the start ._. you were here and asking me if I was WBG, then dippped up out of here for a day, then came back and said "brb" and dipped up out of here for another 18 hours. Or rather, you did miss the start, but not in the "oops I missed the target" kind of miss, more like the "oh shit here comes that guy who owes me money i'm gonna dive behind this trash can" kind of miss. Don't be behind the trash can, E-dawg. This would be an entirely acceptable post for a user with a history of putting on the pressure, and in fact, in context, may indicate some mad nerd balling. Is Erandor, in fact, a mad nerd baller? Let us see, oh wait, Zephirdd is obvious pro-Palmar. To be fair, it seems like Erandorr just missed it. That happens. On the other hand it means he gets no bonus points for a post like this. So, I can see a couple possibilities here. 1) Erandorr's various odd posts have good context and he is a regular bro. 2) Erandorr is a scummy motherfucker and he is hustling us. Hard. This last post? It's more questions no analysis. Not inherently a problem-- I make posts which ask questions and don't analyze somehow. But those aren't the only posts I make. Let's take a look by contextualizing this with Erandorr's analysis posts. Oh no wait Erandorr hasn't done any analysis. He hasn't gone after anyone. He hasn't voted here in the thread. He is hustling us. E-dawg why are you hustling Posts Erandorr has made since I have called him out for hustling us: On January 07 2012 02:58 Erandorr wrote: Shut up WBGs Smurf, I am trying to get into this. On January 08 2012 03:50 Erandorr wrote: ##Vote: Risk.Nuke. I will be on my way to my birthday party soon and killing people who are town on their birthday is just rude, isn't it? I realize that I am being an asshole right now for not posting, but I seriously don't have time right now. And yes what makes me more of an asshole is that I was , as Syllo correctly stated, playing Dota instead of bothering to post in the days before. As you can see, all he has done is continue to hustle. HE is hustlin us you guys | ||
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oh no wait he's spend like 4 days hustling us. | ||
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On January 08 2012 08:47 risk.nuke wrote: I'm not scum, A nolynch would even be better then to mislynch a townie. OH WOW GREAT ARGUMENT YOU CONVINCE ME NOW | ||
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On January 08 2012 08:48 risk.nuke wrote: Blazinghand quit beeing a huge troll. You did some pressuring but that's all you've done, after that you just got convinced of your own selfimportance so please tune it down. You made an argument that consisted of "well you guys shouldn't lynch me because i'm town" Really? Why would you even say that. | ||
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On January 08 2012 08:49 Blazinghand wrote: You made an argument that consisted of "well you guys shouldn't lynch me because i'm town" Really? Why would you even say that. Like I'm not sure if you're aware of this but people can say that even if they're scum. If you want to convince me not to lynch you, you'll need to do better than that. The statement you made did nothing to help town, prove your innocence, or really do anything but take up space. | ||
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On January 08 2012 08:51 supersoft wrote: hey, is there an observer QT? PM Zona | ||
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On January 08 2012 08:51 risk.nuke wrote: Incase actually somebody belives I am town and could help me keep my head instead of falling for false propagande like we must lynch someone even if he is a townie. ._. come on man, you have like an hour to live. Be productive with it. | ||
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No this is wrong Erandorr has actively come to the thread and hustled us. Why on earth are his actions remotely acceptable | ||
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I say we should lynch Erandorr but if there will be no Erandorr lynch today i will comrpomise for risk.nuke but serioulsy where my ERandorr lynchersat | ||
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On January 08 2012 09:17 Refallen wrote: Just woke up. Are we switching to erandorr? Why not risk? And how long do we have? On January 08 2012 08:38 Blazinghand wrote: Here's my case against Erandorr: Posts Erandorr has made since I have called him out for hustling us: As you can see, all he has done is continue to hustle. HE is hustlin us you guys | ||
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On January 08 2012 09:21 Refallen wrote: Well it IS his birthday party. Tbh it seems like he's just lurking right now to me, so I rather pynch risk.nuke and give erandorr a day. Still, if no one switches to risk and we're nearing no lunch I'll do it. We've given Erandorr many days and every day he comes back and asks for more. He is hustling us | ||
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On January 08 2012 09:34 Grackaroni wrote: @BH/Layabout FFS, they are probably both going to flip scum, we just need to avoid a no-lynch. Right I think you guys just want to be the person able to brag about finding scum. If they both flip scum it doesn't matter ._. cmon dude let's avoid a no-lynch together | ||
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On January 08 2012 09:39 Mr. Wiggles wrote: There's 11 minutes left. Zbot will only update two more times. Somebody switch, post, and I'll hammer. On January 08 2012 09:40 Refallen wrote: Done Go wiggles Go | ||
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On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. .... So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. On January 08 2012 09:45 ZBot wrote: ]End of Day 1 Lynched: Erandorr (10): | ||
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On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote: Voting System: This game utilizes the Instant Majority Lynch system. If at any point during the day over half the players alive are voting to lynch a particular player, that player will be instant | ||
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RoL you better be pulling unicorns out of your ass | ||
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Erandorr Flipped VT http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=41#814 | ||
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1) the idea that we're gonna break a setup with mass roleclaim is preposterous 2) the idea that we're going to protect blues by banishing them defeats the purpose of blues. I think the way vanilla town should play this is the way town should play every game: find scum and lynch them. Blues should use their powers wisely and not roleclaim except in extreme cases. On January 09 2012 12:20 Jackal58 wrote: That's exactly why I think they are. Palmar is lazy scum. He doesn't like being scum. His actions towards Syllo are in line with his day one behavior as scum. I've played scum with Palmar before. He interacts with his teammates like nobodies business. Whether or not Palmar was lazy, I think we'll get more out of analyzing Syllogism's actions. I'm not comfortable wandering into meta WIFOM territory. On January 09 2012 12:43 Refallen wrote: Jackal, what do you think of syllo switching to Errandor late in day 1? As he said, I find it hard how someone who first pushed risk.nuke would stay on him throughout the day only to vote switch late to errandor if they're scum buddies. Right now, I think it more likely that syllo just brainfarted, but I'll like to hear your take on the day 1 situation. yeah man someone making a case on one dude then putting his vote on another dude what's up with that. On a more serious note here's syllo's filters and my thoughts: "Dude man Syllo what's the deal?" This is my question for Syllo. Here's where he's like "yeah man Erandorr not a good lynch" On January 07 2012 00:51 syllogism wrote: While I consider palmar the better lynch out of wiggles/palmar, I don't think it's a good idea to lynch palmar today. We've other very good lynches available, it's a setup with 6 scum and he is very likely to become more transparent the longer the game goes on if he is scum or dead if he is town. I'll probably narrow the list down but I would like to keep the lynch between erandorr/risk/tyrran/refallen. Out of those erandorr appears to be by far the safest lynch and the only reason I haven't been actively pushing him as the #1 lynch was to give him more time and because it's pretty disappointing if he again decided not to play due to rolling scum. ^===This is before my "hustlin" post. On January 07 2012 05:51 syllogism wrote: Wiggles what do you think about Erandorr and Risk nuke and don't you think that in a 6 scum game it would be safer play to lynch one of them or Tyrran as I would estimate that they are at least as likely to flip scum and are going to be considerably more worthless even if we happen to be wrong. ^===this is after my "hustlin" post. On January 07 2012 08:33 syllogism wrote: We should lynch erandorr/risk/tyrran today, regardless of how scummy you think palmar is being. The fact people don't seem to be willing to hop on those wagons despite me repeatedly giving them an opportunity to do so is suspicious. If palmar is scum, he has two scum mates who should be looking for alternative wagons by now. It's of course quite possible that his team mates are on that list but regardless lynching one of those 3 is better day 1 play. He seems to be relatively settled on these three musketeers. At this point he's pulling out big guns and calling people suspicious. On January 07 2012 19:26 syllogism wrote: Wiggles: I think palmar is likely scum. It's pretty much impossible to assign probabilities to flips so I'm not even going to bother, but I guess I could say that I don't think they are particularly more likely to flip scum than palmar. The issue is where we are if they don't flip scum; losing palmar day 1 would definitely be much worse. We can probably lynch him tomorrow if he keeps playing like this. See this is where you lose me syllogism. Yes palmar flipped scum but like if you think he's scum you should lynch him ._. On January 07 2012 20:14 syllogism wrote: Do you think we should lynch him over erandorr if the answer doesn't make sense? "him" is jackal (talking to palm) On January 07 2012 23:21 syllogism wrote: Haha jackal we can only lynch one person and there are 3 or maybe 4 people who are extremely likely to all flip scum (erandorr, risk, palmar and possibly tyrran) his revised scumlist now includes Palmar. On January 08 2012 07:02 syllogism wrote: Day ends in 3 hours, but within an hour or two is fine. I'm fine with lynching either erandorr/risk here it narrows to the two wagons. On January 08 2012 08:32 syllogism wrote: How many do we have around? I'm fine with switching to erandorr, I'm virtually certain that erandorr is scum and only very convinced that risk is On January 08 2012 08:45 syllogism wrote: I haven't been pushing the meta case against Erandorr, but he really wouldn't play like this as town. He even signed up for TL mafia L so he isn't burned out or busy; he just loathes playing as scum. In election mafia he hydraed with curu and refused to post at all due to rolling scum. Yesterday he lied about being sleepy, while I know he had been and still was playing dota 2 and kept playing for at least an hour after making the post (I went to sleep by that point). Such pure meta cases are annoying to push and I thought the case against risk was better in terms of it actually constituting as "playing mafia". But erandorr really can't be town So here we have what I view as the crux of the issue. Syllo here is talking out of two different sides of his mouth. One side says that he's virtually certain erandorr is scum, and only very convinced risk is. It says he hasn't pushed a meta case against Erandorr, then pushes a meta case. In the same post, he says pushing a case like tha tis annoying and he thought ... the case against risk was better of what does this what i don't even On January 08 2012 08:45 syllogism wrote: risk was better in terms of it actually constituting as "playing mafia". But erandorr really can't be town >.> On January 08 2012 08:58 syllogism wrote: No I still think risk is scum, but I'm pretty much certain that erandorr is. >.> So I'm not voting syllo yet. I don't really understand what he's talking about in these posts but it looks like scum trying to cover his ass. I'm sure he has a realistic situation, right syllo? | ||
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before: Here's where he's like "yeah man Erandorr not a good lynch" WHAT I MEANT: Here's where he's like "yeah man Erandorr IS a good lynch" | ||
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On January 09 2012 09:48 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: With townies like you, who needs mafia. 1) Zeph is indeed being a moron. There are no good plans that don't depend on excellent town who scumhunt. VTs win the game, Blues are just along for the ride and help out in close lategames. Also scum PRs have a much better than 1/17 chance of hitting their roles. 2) This is still a bad plan we should just scumhunt like normal ._. | ||
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On January 09 2012 18:21 Refallen wrote: And with that, assuming AoD targetted syllo, we can also clear syllo from not being an angel. Also, seeing how he was the very first to call out Palmar after his kite comment, I don't think he's demon either. yes you're right that was some serious analysis calling Palmar out for saying "i'm a kite" is pro town | ||
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On January 05 2012 22:25 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: lol sorry, I actually just got home and forgot this game started. Initially I thought I'd just finish up Responsibility mafia then jump over here but that doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon. I just need some time to catch up. ok so he lurked a bit On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. guys he's still lurking just hold on a sec On January 06 2012 15:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am off from work tomorrow and I plan to catch up then. I just finished like 3 hours of reading for responsibility after getting home from work. Tomorrow afternoon I will catch up, post, and give my thoughts. ok guys TOMORROW, TOMORROW he will sto the lurk. On January 07 2012 23:58 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry for my inactivity, I really I am. Some stuff came up that took up my supposed free time to post both yesterday and the day before. I have work 10-6 EST today (Currently 9:56) but after that I will try to deliver and post a lot more, this isn't going to be a game full of excuses from me. But until then I will cast a vote on the current vote leader. My logic here is that a lynch is better than a no lynch in terms of information and analysis, although it doesn't look like we will make the lynch cutoff and I want you guys to have that opportunity assuming I don't get back here in time today. ##Vote: Erandorr ._. So you know what RoL I don't like that you lurked for all of D1. That being said, that alone will not implicate you for anything. I think it's worth noting here that uh... you didn't actually vote Erandorr. woo-hoo. This during the last-minute scramble: On January 08 2012 09:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am going to try to read the last few pages and get an idea of whats happening since there isn't much time left, if anyone wants to summarize feel free. On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723 So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. At last we come to the first real post. First, you claim to have voted Erandorr when you have not at all. A simple mistake, but not a good start. He makes some reasonable points but I consider this a somewhat unsupported "vote" and yet still no vote. On January 08 2012 09:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Stupid bot never PMed me back, I sent like 2-3 votes. On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. On January 08 2012 09:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: My first vote didn't have purgatory in the subject heading, because it doesn't say that in the OP, my second vote was a mess up, and the third vote was too late. On January 08 2012 09:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: For some reason, I am not thinking right now. I knew that lol, until today all I have been doing is reading and analyzing the set up and trying to figure out how valid some plan I have is. ._. OK we're still in honest mistake territory, but as you can see RoL's D1 play was somewhat underwhelming. Does this paint him as scummy to me? Sort of. Maybe he WAS too busy to stop by and kept on telling us that he was catching up. Maybe he DID send a bunch of bad messages to zbot. Maybe he really didn't understand the voting situation. Maybe all he's been doing is analyzing the setup. I'll buy that, MAYBE, if he's got something good to say. So Mr. RoL what you got? Well although his suggestion was ultimately not implemented, since it's the only thing he's really talked about, that's what I'm gonna look at. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow. Intro This plan is essentially a mass role claim, but for a reason. Here is how I tend to implement it. Everyone claims not their role, but there color. We should have 4 blues (Townies with powers) and then 13 green (townie without power) on the off chance we end up with 5 blues they all claim their actual roles, when we see which roles have conflict we act from there. In this game one of the things heavily working against the town is status quo and the flow of information. The Angels have someone who kills without showing alignment while the Demons have the capacity to block the flip of a day lynch. What this plan does is preempts that decline in information because we know (roughly) all alignments before shit hits the fan. For example, if the Angels annihilate one of the blue power roles and it has never been claimed they can now safely claim the power role, basically just one of the detective type roles, but either way at that point they KNOW they are safe from a counter claim. In this scenario we put all the information out there knowing that it benefits us more than anyone else. The way I intend this to work is we all claim which forces the demons and angels into a bad position. No information is truly hidden, and we have just taken away 4 possibilities as candidate for scum either way. which means in a group of 15 players, 6 are now scum. that's a 40% chance of hitting scum through sheer guessing. The real benefit comes in how the mechanics interact. ಠ_ಠ Ok, I get that the concealed lynch / concealed kills thing is a problem. I get that. I get that as the game goes on and more people die, things will get harder for the town. I also get that a concealed lynch destroys a huge amount of information. The DT can't breadcrumb his findings if he gets conceal-shot by the AoD, etc. However, this just means we need to be careful about roleclaims and be effective during our early days when we haven't had more doubt introduced into our reads by flipless deaths. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Actually this looks respectably bad for the angels. I'm not sure I buy the "demons will always jail the blues" line but I can get how the Angels will try to kill off corrupted towns instead of blues with their Acolyte, maybe. But there are a lot of nights where there isn't a corrupted townie around! And on those nights the Angels get plenty of KP.Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. So in the end the Demons would benefit highly by managing to corrupt our blues because it will be harder for Angels to kill them, but they also benefit by spreading out corruption and forcing the Angels to spread KP to avoid being overwhelmed as the game progresses. I also don't like the idea of trading out our blue roles for a "confirmed voting block". Our blues will be largely unable to act due to roleblocks, getting shot, and roleblocking themselves rather than demons. We're giving up most of our blue power for something like this. The last thing is I'm not really sure how this makes things worse for the demons. They're still gonna be doing the same thing, which is corrupting people and biding their time. In fact, given that it will be harder for Angels to kill corrupted towns, as RoL NOTES, THIS MAKES THE DEMONS STRONGER. The corrupted situation will get out of hand and our demon DT will be roleblocked plenty of times, and eventually, even if we kill off an angel or two this is bad news for town. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Discussion Here is where we discuss the pros/cons of the strategy. First I must clear something up. Speed is paramount to the success of this strategy. We need ALL the blue claims before the day post to ensure integrity because as soon as the first annihilation happens no claim can be trusted as without fault. There is a reason why semiclosed set ups are used in the huge majority of TL games. Knowing a role count makes the game progressively more broken and doesn't allow for any sort of fake claim. The annihilation (angel) and lynch hiding (demon) mechanics are clearly in place to allow for fake claims and a downswing in truly knowable information. We need to preempt this disadvantage and get information out in the public before it is untrustworthy. The downside to this plan? An increase in Angel KP and the decrease in blue role efficiency due to purgatory inflicting powers such as transport and banish. The pros I have pretty much outlined earlier. We know all roles, we end up with 4 confirmed townies and a narrowing of the scum field to a 40% chance. While our blues powers are semi neutralized their voting powers remain intact and unless the Demons want to chance it, incorruptible. This eliminates fake claims and drastically helps out with the decreasing information we will have throughout the game by knowing someones *likely* role before they die while having a confirmed group. Overall this looks like it will increase the rate at which angels will kill blue roles, and will buy the demons more time to win. Our Demon Hunter seems to be on the ball. He shot Palmar (I think; maybe it was the acolyte). I'm not particuarly interested in giving the scum teams any advantages here. I think that mass roleclaim is dumb and will hurt the town, and I think RoL is scum trying to get us to do something dumb. I think this plan is basically a pro-demon plan. Others agree with me. Let's examine RoL's defense of his plan. On January 09 2012 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: He can't choose "townie". All town claims are safe until they claim corrupted. Bluelightz makes a dumb objection and gets shot down. On January 09 2012 00:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I didn't have time and you are misreading. I said if Erandorr flips scum then the shipjumpers should be suspect. The principle is still true. Without a DT check the chance of a vote switch hitting a townie without something significant happening is so incredibly low because mafia wouldn't let you so easily switch from a townie to a mafia. I don't know what else there is to explain. Erandorr was the initial, Risk,nuke was the switch. The switch is less likely to be scum than the original. For all the time spent "reading the thread" and "catching up" RoL doesn't seem to have, um, read the thread. It's great that he accuses someone of misreading while misreading ;_; On January 09 2012 03:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Most of the posts I read don't fully understand the game set up when attacking the plan. Secondly, from what I can tell at the time risk.nuke looked like the switch, not the initial. That could be my fault though. Either way in a two faction game assuming the initial is scum then the switch would be supported by one and neutral by the other still giving a switch a higher risk of being town. I explained how a switch tell was weaker in two faction vs one but still valid. I can't type much more because I'm on my shitty cell phone and my breaks almost over but read the rules and under how the acolyte works. He CAN'T kill townies, just townie with power, corrupt townie, or demon. Therefore KNOWN blues are a high priority target since they are a confirmed voting power which is the only threat to angels since they can't die through night actions. Some people being dumb about the acolyte. Which posts are he talking about? certainly not this one: + Show Spoiler + On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote: What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Now tyrran, he is not my boy, and he's played like dick this game, but the man has a point. Whether he's an Angel or Demon that doesn't like this plan, or a town player who's figured out that it's like totes anti-town, he laid out legitimate arguments and RoL just ignored them. These aren't misunderstandings of the acolyte's powers-- this is legitimate criticism. On January 09 2012 03:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Also, no one except scum has an incentive to fake claim blue so whoever said that is an idiot. Any lie is inherently antitown and should be treated as such. No blue would hide in greens because that would be antitown and stupid. On January 09 2012 03:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Oh and blues DON'T claim role unless there are 5 of them. And the mafia can only feasibly claim two of them, the seer and the sage or w/e the two that check alignment which would still 50/50 our demon hunter. On January 09 2012 06:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: This game isn't about blues, its about killing scum. Our blues can help with that, but any plan around them is stupid. I view them as confirmable voting power in this game which is MUCH more important than anything else. This game is about scumhunting, or blues are actually relatively weak. We have a jailer, two detectives that can only detect half the scum, so if they see someone scummy they may be right and not even get an answer, and a vigilante who can't kill half the scum but can shoot everyday. The vig is good, but rest of the power roles are relatively weak. The stronger element is their threat as a voting entity. So a couple clarifications here, but basically RoL is willing to give up the Blue roles in return for some confirmed voting power. On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. The idea that fake claim is the problem here is, well, a problem. Blues just shouldn't claim ._. He makes some good points as to why this is bad for angels, but it continues to look like this plan just helps demon. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: No, any more than 4 blue claims we have everyone claim and kill the contradictions. And if the scum decide to jetisson one likely-to-be-killed scum player? ._. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia. We also lose the anonymity withing the blues that your plan relies on to be safe. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: A voting block threatens angels more than blues. But more importantly it doesn't matter. Its a double edged sword, they are shutting down blue powers which threaten them while also inadvertently protecting them which preserves there voting power. The issue here is that this helps the demons find the blue that threatens them, the demon hunter, while upping the ante on the angels. It's a good for demons, bad for angels sort of thing. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Because their goal is to control voting power, and controlling voting power that the town and the angels will hesitate to kill is beneficial to them. ._. or they could just corrupt towns and be substantially better off. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Feasibly yes, but as soon as you guys realize its beneficial and the blues claim then every town aligned player should understand how detrimental lying is and therefore not do it. this is a fair point. town aligned players should not lie. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: It's called analysis. We have a smaller pool (-4 confirmed townies from suspects) to choose from and we can figure out the rest with skilled analysis. In the worst case scenario, it is possible that we could lose all the blues in two nights, but that still gives us AT LEAST one day of confirmed townies. If even one hit fails due to purgatory they are fucked. The angels have to maintain a status quo among Corrupted townies and eliminate demons, a blue circle should be a second priority for them. by day 3 in your perfect 4/4 blue dead scenario the demons have +3 corrupted townies and effectively control the lynch winning the game. If the Angels intend on winning they can't let that happen. we should be able to analyze without using this dumb roleclaim strat. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: They know if someone is faking if they are faking it, and they will lose that player instantly or after taking one blue, either way a fair exchange. Remember that this point RoL doesn't know Palmar is gonna get shot and flip scum, even though Palmar is likely D2 lynch-- he would have been a fine sacrifice for the demon/angel team, since he's dead anyways, to force claims. ._. Lastly, as the tide turns against him: On January 09 2012 08:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am heading out for the night. On January 09 2012 08:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: It starts with one person, but if no one takes that step then it doesn't matter. No one bother claiming now there isn't enough time and we can't guarantee all the blues are active now. On January 09 2012 09:48 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: With townies like you, who needs mafia. Zeph knows what's up. RoL doesn't actually leave, then proceeds to bail afterwards, saying nothing and disappearing into the mist whence he came. RoL has made no contributions and pushed a pro-scum plan. He even got a couple of morons to claim vt ._. He's lurking, and was hustling us pretty hard D1. I think he's a great D2 lynch. He's never been helpful and he has actively tried to hurt us. ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
I wanna see some posts | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [RoL lurking] + So, here's RoL. On January 05 2012 22:25 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: lol sorry, I actually just got home and forgot this game started. Initially I thought I'd just finish up Responsibility mafia then jump over here but that doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon. I just need some time to catch up. ok so he lurked a bit On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. guys he's still lurking just hold on a sec On January 06 2012 15:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am off from work tomorrow and I plan to catch up then. I just finished like 3 hours of reading for responsibility after getting home from work. Tomorrow afternoon I will catch up, post, and give my thoughts. ok guys TOMORROW, TOMORROW he will sto the lurk. On January 07 2012 23:58 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sorry for my inactivity, I really I am. Some stuff came up that took up my supposed free time to post both yesterday and the day before. I have work 10-6 EST today (Currently 9:56) but after that I will try to deliver and post a lot more, this isn't going to be a game full of excuses from me. But until then I will cast a vote on the current vote leader. My logic here is that a lynch is better than a no lynch in terms of information and analysis, although it doesn't look like we will make the lynch cutoff and I want you guys to have that opportunity assuming I don't get back here in time today. ##Vote: Erandorr ._. So you know what RoL I don't like that you lurked for all of D1. That being said, that alone will not implicate you for anything. I think it's worth noting here that uh... you didn't actually vote Erandorr. woo-hoo. + Show Spoiler [RoL's 'voting' D1] + This during the last-minute scramble: On January 08 2012 09:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am going to try to read the last few pages and get an idea of whats happening since there isn't much time left, if anyone wants to summarize feel free. On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723 So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. At last we come to the first real post. First, you claim to have voted Erandorr when you have not at all. A simple mistake, but not a good start. He makes some reasonable points but I consider this a somewhat unsupported "vote" and yet still no vote. On January 08 2012 09:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Stupid bot never PMed me back, I sent like 2-3 votes. On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. On January 08 2012 09:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: My first vote didn't have purgatory in the subject heading, because it doesn't say that in the OP, my second vote was a mess up, and the third vote was too late. On January 08 2012 09:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: For some reason, I am not thinking right now. I knew that lol, until today all I have been doing is reading and analyzing the set up and trying to figure out how valid some plan I have is. ._. OK we're still in honest mistake territory, but as you can see RoL's D1 play was somewhat underwhelming. Does this paint him as scummy to me? Sort of. Maybe he WAS too busy to stop by and kept on telling us that he was catching up. Maybe he DID send a bunch of bad messages to zbot. Maybe he really didn't understand the voting situation. Maybe all he's been doing is analyzing the setup. I'll buy that, MAYBE, if he's got something good to say. + Show Spoiler [Rol's shitty idea] + So Mr. RoL what you got? Well although his suggestion was ultimately not implemented, since it's the only thing he's really talked about, that's what I'm gonna look at. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow. Intro This plan is essentially a mass role claim, but for a reason. Here is how I tend to implement it. Everyone claims not their role, but there color. We should have 4 blues (Townies with powers) and then 13 green (townie without power) on the off chance we end up with 5 blues they all claim their actual roles, when we see which roles have conflict we act from there. In this game one of the things heavily working against the town is status quo and the flow of information. The Angels have someone who kills without showing alignment while the Demons have the capacity to block the flip of a day lynch. What this plan does is preempts that decline in information because we know (roughly) all alignments before shit hits the fan. For example, if the Angels annihilate one of the blue power roles and it has never been claimed they can now safely claim the power role, basically just one of the detective type roles, but either way at that point they KNOW they are safe from a counter claim. In this scenario we put all the information out there knowing that it benefits us more than anyone else. The way I intend this to work is we all claim which forces the demons and angels into a bad position. No information is truly hidden, and we have just taken away 4 possibilities as candidate for scum either way. which means in a group of 15 players, 6 are now scum. that's a 40% chance of hitting scum through sheer guessing. The real benefit comes in how the mechanics interact. ಠ_ಠ Ok, I get that the concealed lynch / concealed kills thing is a problem. I get that. I get that as the game goes on and more people die, things will get harder for the town. I also get that a concealed lynch destroys a huge amount of information. The DT can't breadcrumb his findings if he gets conceal-shot by the AoD, etc. However, this just means we need to be careful about roleclaims and be effective during our early days when we haven't had more doubt introduced into our reads by flipless deaths. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Actually this looks respectably bad for the angels. I'm not sure I buy the "demons will always jail the blues" line but I can get how the Angels will try to kill off corrupted towns instead of blues with their Acolyte, maybe. But there are a lot of nights where there isn't a corrupted townie around! And on those nights the Angels get plenty of KP.Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. So in the end the Demons would benefit highly by managing to corrupt our blues because it will be harder for Angels to kill them, but they also benefit by spreading out corruption and forcing the Angels to spread KP to avoid being overwhelmed as the game progresses. I also don't like the idea of trading out our blue roles for a "confirmed voting block". Our blues will be largely unable to act due to roleblocks, getting shot, and roleblocking themselves rather than demons. We're giving up most of our blue power for something like this. The last thing is I'm not really sure how this makes things worse for the demons. They're still gonna be doing the same thing, which is corrupting people and biding their time. In fact, given that it will be harder for Angels to kill corrupted towns, as RoL NOTES, THIS MAKES THE DEMONS STRONGER. The corrupted situation will get out of hand and our demon DT will be roleblocked plenty of times, and eventually, even if we kill off an angel or two this is bad news for town. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Discussion Here is where we discuss the pros/cons of the strategy. First I must clear something up. Speed is paramount to the success of this strategy. We need ALL the blue claims before the day post to ensure integrity because as soon as the first annihilation happens no claim can be trusted as without fault. There is a reason why semiclosed set ups are used in the huge majority of TL games. Knowing a role count makes the game progressively more broken and doesn't allow for any sort of fake claim. The annihilation (angel) and lynch hiding (demon) mechanics are clearly in place to allow for fake claims and a downswing in truly knowable information. We need to preempt this disadvantage and get information out in the public before it is untrustworthy. The downside to this plan? An increase in Angel KP and the decrease in blue role efficiency due to purgatory inflicting powers such as transport and banish. The pros I have pretty much outlined earlier. We know all roles, we end up with 4 confirmed townies and a narrowing of the scum field to a 40% chance. While our blues powers are semi neutralized their voting powers remain intact and unless the Demons want to chance it, incorruptible. This eliminates fake claims and drastically helps out with the decreasing information we will have throughout the game by knowing someones *likely* role before they die while having a confirmed group. Overall this looks like it will increase the rate at which angels will kill blue roles, and will buy the demons more time to win. Our Demon Hunter seems to be on the ball. He shot Palmar (I think; maybe it was the acolyte). I'm not particuarly interested in giving the scum teams any advantages here. I think that mass roleclaim is dumb and will hurt the town, and I think RoL is scum trying to get us to do something dumb. I think this plan is basically a pro-demon plan. Others agree with me. Let's examine RoL's defense of his plan. + Show Spoiler [RoL's defense of the plan] + On January 09 2012 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: He can't choose "townie". All town claims are safe until they claim corrupted. Bluelightz makes a dumb objection and gets shot down. On January 09 2012 00:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I didn't have time and you are misreading. I said if Erandorr flips scum then the shipjumpers should be suspect. The principle is still true. Without a DT check the chance of a vote switch hitting a townie without something significant happening is so incredibly low because mafia wouldn't let you so easily switch from a townie to a mafia. I don't know what else there is to explain. Erandorr was the initial, Risk,nuke was the switch. The switch is less likely to be scum than the original. For all the time spent "reading the thread" and "catching up" RoL doesn't seem to have, um, read the thread. It's great that he accuses someone of misreading while misreading ;_; On January 09 2012 03:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Most of the posts I read don't fully understand the game set up when attacking the plan. Secondly, from what I can tell at the time risk.nuke looked like the switch, not the initial. That could be my fault though. Either way in a two faction game assuming the initial is scum then the switch would be supported by one and neutral by the other still giving a switch a higher risk of being town. I explained how a switch tell was weaker in two faction vs one but still valid. I can't type much more because I'm on my shitty cell phone and my breaks almost over but read the rules and under how the acolyte works. He CAN'T kill townies, just townie with power, corrupt townie, or demon. Therefore KNOWN blues are a high priority target since they are a confirmed voting power which is the only threat to angels since they can't die through night actions. Some people being dumb about the acolyte. Which posts are he talking about? certainly not this one: + Show Spoiler + On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote: What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Now tyrran, he is not my boy, and he's played like dick this game, but the man has a point. Whether he's an Angel or Demon that doesn't like this plan, or a town player who's figured out that it's like totes anti-town, he laid out legitimate arguments and RoL just ignored them. These aren't misunderstandings of the acolyte's powers-- this is legitimate criticism. On January 09 2012 03:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Also, no one except scum has an incentive to fake claim blue so whoever said that is an idiot. Any lie is inherently antitown and should be treated as such. No blue would hide in greens because that would be antitown and stupid. On January 09 2012 03:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Oh and blues DON'T claim role unless there are 5 of them. And the mafia can only feasibly claim two of them, the seer and the sage or w/e the two that check alignment which would still 50/50 our demon hunter. On January 09 2012 06:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: This game isn't about blues, its about killing scum. Our blues can help with that, but any plan around them is stupid. I view them as confirmable voting power in this game which is MUCH more important than anything else. This game is about scumhunting, or blues are actually relatively weak. We have a jailer, two detectives that can only detect half the scum, so if they see someone scummy they may be right and not even get an answer, and a vigilante who can't kill half the scum but can shoot everyday. The vig is good, but rest of the power roles are relatively weak. The stronger element is their threat as a voting entity. So a couple clarifications here, but basically RoL is willing to give up the Blue roles in return for some confirmed voting power. On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. The idea that fake claim is the problem here is, well, a problem. Blues just shouldn't claim ._. He makes some good points as to why this is bad for angels, but it continues to look like this plan just helps demon. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: No, any more than 4 blue claims we have everyone claim and kill the contradictions. And if the scum decide to jetisson one likely-to-be-killed scum player? ._. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia. We also lose the anonymity withing the blues that your plan relies on to be safe. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: A voting block threatens angels more than blues. But more importantly it doesn't matter. Its a double edged sword, they are shutting down blue powers which threaten them while also inadvertently protecting them which preserves there voting power. The issue here is that this helps the demons find the blue that threatens them, the demon hunter, while upping the ante on the angels. It's a good for demons, bad for angels sort of thing. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Because their goal is to control voting power, and controlling voting power that the town and the angels will hesitate to kill is beneficial to them. ._. or they could just corrupt towns and be substantially better off. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Feasibly yes, but as soon as you guys realize its beneficial and the blues claim then every town aligned player should understand how detrimental lying is and therefore not do it. this is a fair point. town aligned players should not lie. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: It's called analysis. We have a smaller pool (-4 confirmed townies from suspects) to choose from and we can figure out the rest with skilled analysis. In the worst case scenario, it is possible that we could lose all the blues in two nights, but that still gives us AT LEAST one day of confirmed townies. If even one hit fails due to purgatory they are fucked. The angels have to maintain a status quo among Corrupted townies and eliminate demons, a blue circle should be a second priority for them. by day 3 in your perfect 4/4 blue dead scenario the demons have +3 corrupted townies and effectively control the lynch winning the game. If the Angels intend on winning they can't let that happen. we should be able to analyze without using this dumb roleclaim strat. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: They know if someone is faking if they are faking it, and they will lose that player instantly or after taking one blue, either way a fair exchange. Remember that this point RoL doesn't know Palmar is gonna get shot and flip scum, even though Palmar is likely D2 lynch-- he would have been a fine sacrifice for the demon/angel team, since he's dead anyways, to force claims. ._. + Show Spoiler [final minutes of n1] + Lastly, as the tide turns against him: On January 09 2012 08:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I am heading out for the night. On January 09 2012 08:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: It starts with one person, but if no one takes that step then it doesn't matter. No one bother claiming now there isn't enough time and we can't guarantee all the blues are active now. On January 09 2012 09:48 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: With townies like you, who needs mafia. Zeph knows what's up. RoL doesn't actually leave, then proceeds to bail afterwards, saying nothing and disappearing into the mist whence he came. RoL has made no contributions and pushed a pro-scum plan. He even got a couple of morons to claim vt ._. He's lurking, and was hustling us pretty hard D1. I think he's a great D2 lynch. He's never been helpful and he has actively tried to hurt us. ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD | ||
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1) lurk for most of d1 2) try to jump on the erandorr wagon and fail 3) push his bad plan I don't see how he's town | ||
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On January 10 2012 08:11 layabout wrote: Do you think RoL beleived his plan was good or bad for town? ._. I think he's scum. I think he was pushing an anti-town plan. So... yes. I'm somewhat surprised you weren't able to put that together yourself. | ||
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Hey RoL did you believe in your plan? RoL: "yes" | ||
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On January 10 2012 08:55 layabout wrote: do you understand my point? no your point is dumb he will always claim he thought his idea was a good idea. | ||
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On January 10 2012 09:01 Refallen wrote: Let's not "bury this guy" because he derped for a post. I think he's one of the most open and active members so far in posting his reads/trying to get people lynched, and I think he's probably town, even if some of his cases are bad. ' aDJALSDJLS did you read my case? no. did your ead mr wiggles post? no I'm talking about REBIRTHOFLEGEND READ THE CASE | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55 ^--- my case against RoL http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=56#1102 ^--- wiggles agreeing with me to go after RoL there u go | ||
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On January 10 2012 09:07 Spaackle wrote: @Refallen. He didn't just derp in a post. He made a well thought out plan that would cause a lot of harm to the town if it were implemented. He then defended against the flaws pointed out in his plan and has not done much since. He also hasn't really posted any reads on anyone, just his silly plan. Why are you so eager to defend him? You're underestimated the level of Derp Refallen experienced. He declined to actually read me and Mr. wiggles in a comprehensive fashion and thought we were attacking layabout. | ||
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On January 10 2012 09:11 Refallen wrote: Blazing, you tell me this post isn't misleading at all? Especially when mr wiggles was ending up talking about layabout at the last part of his post just before yours? And spaackle, what exactly of your point still stands, after it's clear that I'm not defending RoL, but rather layabout? no you're a moron my vote is on RoL. You're just a moron. | ||
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If you misinterpret this it is only because you want to misinterpret it... or see my previous hypothesis. | ||
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On January 10 2012 09:24 Refallen wrote: Yes. In the pre-game someone suggested a mass role-claim too. It isn't impossible for a town RoL to suggest the plan, and at the very least it seems that he has thought through it enough to address some common criticisms. But that's not the point. I rather stay on risk.nuke because I think he's a better lynch, I remember the last time you tried one of your hustlin' cases, though I do agree that RoL needs to do more this cycle. Just because I voted for risk.nuke does not mean I think RoL to be town. The fact of the matter is, the case on Erandorr was sound, and he got lynched because he played like scum. I think there are 9 players who agree with me on that. Furthermore, saying "well Erandorr was lurking too" isn't the point. The main point of my post isn't RoL's lurking. It's what he's posted and what he hasn't posted. Things RoL has posted: a massive, terrible plan that took a lot of time to write up and is anti-town. Things RoL hasn't posted: anything useful. This isn't a case of a guy lurking. This is a case of a guy lurking, then putting a lot of effort into something that would sink the town. Are you really saying "RoL needs to do more this cycle" when he has actively suggested possibly the worst plan of all time? No, I think RoL has done just what he's wanted to. see for yourself my actual case on RoL, since you seem to think i'm claiming we should lynch him due to inactivity: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081 | ||
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"hey blazinghand I agree with you and think we should lynch RoL" "here are some observations I have about some other scummy player" "here I am suggesting any sort of strategem or asking a question" "this is a helpful post" ^--- guys any of these posts would be welcome... | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 2 Lynch. With 16 alive, 9 votes are required to lynch. Current votes: RebirthOfLeGenD (4): Blazinghand, Mr. Wiggles, Zephirdd, Spaackle Dirkzor (1): Jackal58 risk.nuke (1): Cwave (0): The Day 2 deadline is at January 12 2012 10:00 KST. (That's approximately 1 day, 20:52:02 from now.) | ||
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On January 10 2012 14:59 syllogism wrote: Risk.nuke: I asked you a question. Would you rather lynch Tyrran or HoD today and why? This RoL wagon is incredibly suspicious. We aren't lynching him today. ???? i don't care about the wagon what do you think about the case | ||
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On January 10 2012 15:04 syllogism wrote: Hello Tyrran is Risk still a null read to you and why? What do you think about these posts? Both of those guys are also scum so it's not really useful to talk to them | ||
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On January 10 2012 15:09 Refallen wrote: Care about the wagon. ??? fragment or command? On January 10 2012 15:09 syllogism wrote: It looks like criticism of his bad plan, which doesn't make him mafia. It's a very weak case. Him being completely worthless is a better reason to lynch him, but not good enough to ignore people who have genuinely been here and played incredibly suspiciously. What do you think about risk/tyrran now? Why is it a weak case? RoL has been of negative value this game, adequately slapping down goodness with his shitty plan. You don't find that even slightly suspicious? | ||
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On January 10 2012 15:23 syllogism wrote: No, I'm saying he is busy due to being busy (work/real life) and as we can only lynch one per day, we prioritize the better lynches. Townies suggest bad plans all the time and defend them to death. So being inactive for a week and suggesting a shitty plan that would cause scum to win, isn't, erm, scummy? | ||
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On January 10 2012 15:30 syllogism wrote: See this is why people call you WBG's smurf. You are like a wall. I've repeatedly said that him being worthless is suspicious but that doesn't mean that he is a better lynch than the other two. Who do you think is more likely to suggest and defend a plan that is clearly going to be controversial? Town or Scum? I may be like a wall, but I am like a wall of manliness, handsome looks, good hygiene, and sharp, biting wit. It's not that his plan is worthless, it's that it has anti-worth. He should know that. You should know that. Who do you think is more likely to suggest a plan that would literally sink town? Town or Scum? | ||
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On January 10 2012 15:28 Refallen wrote: I'm saying you should take into consideration the wagon, and not only the case, like you said. And you're missing syllo's point, risk is MORE LIKELY to flip scum than RoL, and thus, he is a BETTER lynch. If we had 5 lynches per day we could lynch anyone who looks suspicious, but with only one, we have to choose the one that has the highest probability of making a scum flip. I think you're missing my point which is that RoL is like 100% scum, so he is better lynch. | ||
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On January 10 2012 15:34 Refallen wrote: Just like how Erandorr was the better lynch in day 1? k. ??? Erandorr was a great lynch day 1. Yes, he flipped town, but in the same situation I'd do what I did again and I'd do it proudly. | ||
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On January 10 2012 15:37 syllogism wrote: It depends on how the person who suggests the plan thinks it is going to be received. I doubt RoL thought a mass claim on day 1 plan was going to be well received. Scum do not want to suggest a plan that instantly makes them the center of unwanted attention. Further, I don't think it's quite that obvious that the plan is bad and I think he thought quite a bit about it, which suggests to me that he really does think it's a good idea. Regardless, as I can't reliably determine if he really believes the plan is good or not, I'm treating it as null. His activity and lack of scum hunting is not null, but again I'm not lynching him over risk/tyrran. "his play was so scummy he couldn't possibly be scum" and Syllo if I have to push this through without you I will | ||
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On January 10 2012 15:55 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: It is not so scummy he couldn't be scum...it is the disregard for the personal consequences, which is often a townie trait. When you aren't guilty, you don't usually think too much about whether or not what you do will draw suspicion. I think he thought he could convince everyone. I think he wanted to lead this town down a dark path. Regardless, let's wait for him to formulate his defense of his so-called "plan" | ||
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On January 10 2012 19:38 Refallen wrote: Blazing, look at who's voting with you on RoL. How many people there do you think are most likely town, and how many are not? Current votes: RebirthOfLeGenD (5): Blazinghand, Mr. Wiggles, Zephirdd, Spaackle, Cwave I know I'm town, Wiggles is probably town (or an aggressive angel). I think Zeph's probably town. I don't like Cwave. I have no read on Spaackle. | ||
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Refallen also i've got my eye on you mr. hidey vote dude | ||
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the alignment of RoL. RoL is scum. | ||
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On January 10 2012 19:45 Refallen wrote: And the alignment of the people on the wagon plays no part in how likely someone is about to point out scum mirite? Also, if you're still on that hidden vote thing, I derped, I said it, I stopped doing it. You don't know the alignment of the people on the wagon either; but here's the thing-- if RoL is scum, I don't give a dick about who agrees with me or not. Maybe he's the 2nd demon and angels are trying to wipe the demons quick. Maybe he's an angel and the two demons are trying to get back into the game. Or maybe all that matters is my analysis is spot-on, he's definitely scum, and he still hasn't come here to defend himself. If you have a problem with my analysis, say it. If not, get out of my way. | ||
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On January 11 2012 01:24 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Lol, are you guys retarded? I am gone for a day and you guys go batshit stupid and try to lynch me? I have work until 6pm but when I get back whoever the fuck is pushing this is getting reamed and I will finally get on my analysis game that I have been meaning to do. Yeah what was i thinking attacking such a useful and active pro town player oh no wait | ||
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On January 11 2012 01:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: As one of the lovely people who unintelligently shit all over my plan I don't expect much from you, but that's fine. Please, tell me why I am scum, I'd love to see it. Yeah good point i guess unless i made a big analysis post i dont have a leg to stand on huh | ||
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On January 11 2012 04:03 Dirkzor wrote: We can discuss other things then the actual lynch target. RoL's allignment seems in question at the moment. There's no question he's obvious scum | ||
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On January 11 2012 02:43 layabout wrote: I like the way you criticise a simplification of my point and then say my point in another form. I never said we ask him, so that is not a valid criticism of my criticism. If we want to analyse the plan we need to do the following: We need to look a the player and look at what he is saying. We need to make a judgements on:
we can also look at possible motivations for suggesting the plan, and how these might change with different alignments etc... We have to look at a lot of different things in order to decide upon whether his plan makes him more likely to be scum. jumping from to is logically unsound. What is more important is whether RoL beleived it was anti-town when he suggested it (if he didn't then it is null). If you think he did believe it was anti-town we then have to look at his actions more closely to find evidence to support that ideas and ways in which RoL tries to push an anti-town plan. The judgements that i have made about his plan (i haven't shared them) have lead me to the conclusion that is is not scummy. +i might post about risk later or tomorrow if i feel like it On January 10 2012 06:57 layabout wrote: I think you missed out one of the major crticisms of the plan ... | ||
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Does this accurately represent your views? Please elaborate if this is not the case. | ||
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Side note: Anyone who's like "quick let's hammer risk.nuke without a full discussion" is either a fool or a knave. The more discussion people post before a flip, the more knowledge we gain after the flip. | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: risk.nuke (5): | ||
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On January 11 2012 08:55 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Alright guy who insists on interpreting every single thing I do as scum. Let's look at it this way. I know I am town, I can be 100% certain of that. I don't know risk.nukes alignment, but I can be sure it is less than 100% likely because I am not risk.nuke. Why would I ever support my own lynch, or not support the opposing lynch if I know for certain that I am a bad lynch? Combine that with Risk.nuke's shitty Seer comment and you have my vote on him. Yeah I guess that's fair, a hypothetical town version of RoL would do the same thing. I retract that point. | ||
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On January 11 2012 13:13 Grackaroni wrote: I feel that between risk.nuke and RoL, Risk.nuke is the better lynch. RoL seems to truly believe that the voting block and confirmed townies would be more helpful than the blues themselves and seems to have spent a lot of time considering the implications of the mass roleclaim. I get the feeling that he legitimately believes his plan is good for town, and he stands by it even after the town declared it anti-town. This is meaningless-- he'd stand by it if he was scum too. The largest flaw in the plan is not the theory itself but the actual application. If only a portion of the town comes in to claim the whole plan falls apart, letting a portion of townies make claims is bad. Besides it's possible that we have a couple derp townies who would lie about their roles in order to save themselves or draw hits. Alright, fine, here's my A-game. I was hoping more people would respond first, but here it is. I'm not sure you understand what happened here-- RoL never meant for his plan to succeed. He knew-- *knew* that some people would stand against it, but some fools would get suckered. Here's how you can tell: he asked the VTs to claim. The thing about a mass roleclaim like this is you only need to ask the blues to claim. If our four blues claimed blue, then we're done-- no need for everyone else to claim VT, because by definition we are all claiming VT by talking to each other here in this thread. So why did RoL ask all the VTs to also claim, when it would be easier to just have the four blues claim (the Vts being everyone who didn't claim "Blue)? Why did he ignore this simpler way of executing his strategy that was less prone to failure? Because, my friends, in case it hasn't been obvious for some time... RoL knew his plan wouldn't be unanimously accepted. He knew that few or none of the blues would claim. RoL is a smart guy and he knew what would happen. Look at him defend his plan! He's dismissing most arguments as dumb without even directly addressing them. His goal isn't for his plan to succeed or fail... It is for his plan to kinda succeed. He wanted several VTs to claim, partially narrowing down the blues list and generally giving his faction an advantage in reading the town pool That's almost how things went. Luckily the only moron in the pack was risk.nuke, probably RoL's scumbuddy trying to draw out other claims. You're probably thinking "Blazinghand that sounds far-fetched" but what sounds more far-fetched to you? that RoL, a good player, suggested this bad idea, kept on pushing it, etc, EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS AN EQUIVALENT OUTCOME IDEA WITH LESS RISK? Why not just have the blues claim? RoL clearly spent a lot of time analyzing the setup. Long enough that he should have realized this. No, he's scum, and he's obvious scum. We have RoL dead-to-rights, you guys. There's no reasonable explanation for his actions other than being scum. Let's hang him. | ||
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On January 11 2012 14:31 Spaackle wrote: So, after a bit more of BH and RoL duking it out, I've decided to Unvote RoL for now. RoL has spent a long time and a lot of effort defending it, and a scum Probably would have dropped it long ago. RoL is still pretty null to me, though. Give me a bit more time to finish catching up on the thread and reading some filter, and I'll have an analysis for both Tyrran and risk.nuke What? Are you listening to yourself? If he were scum he'd cling to it since it's the only thing he's done all game besides lurk and fail to vote Erandorr properly. If he were town, he'd believe in his plan so he'd defend it anyways. RoL of any alignment will defend his plan. RoL isn't null, he's anti-useful and I have no idea why you'd unvote him at this time. | ||
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On January 11 2012 15:32 risk.nuke wrote: Whatever, Fuck this. Lynch me, I'm done. I could fight to stay alive but I don't have any motivation. The entire town is either tunneling me, sheeping and everyone is ignorning everything that doesn't fit me beeing scum-scheme which is a fucking lot. Syllogism the bandwagon starter have failed to provide reasoning and just ignored all of my pleads for him to do so. But to top it of, town seem contempt with allowing votes without reasoning. Even if I were to keep on living I wouldn't have any motivation to play with a town like this, I could say good luck town but you guys are screwed. Once I flip, lynch syllogism the bad tunneling angel and every fucking one who used something along the lines of this "I don't like RoL as a lynch because of X so I'm going with risk.nuke" for reasoning. ._. no townie would ever say this. Welcome to the top of my list, punk. ##Vote: risk.nuke | ||
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Your so-called "plan" is a sham! Your attempts to subvert us will not go unheeded! | ||
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On January 11 2012 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: The only thing you were right about here is that only Blues needed to claim since everyone else simply fell into the "other" category. I don't know how exactly that paints me as scum, or why you think I wanted my plan to fail at all, but whatever. Maybe if I didn't have a job and I was able to defend my plan from the first minute it was posted until the last possible minute I would of been able to shutdown these mind numbing responses I was forced to read and respond to hours after the fact when I knew it was too fucking late. This is why I claimed my role since I hoped it would trigger others to do it as well because I knew I didn't have the time to argue through the entire day to convince the first blue to claim which would be a pain in the ass without unanimous support as I obviously wasn't going to have with the aforementioned mentality being so omnipresent. The thinly-veiled ad hominem was unnecessary. I'm honestly disappointed in you. This post is just to say that. | ||
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On January 11 2012 16:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: The only thing you were right about here is that only Blues needed to claim since everyone else simply fell into the "other" category. I don't know how exactly that paints me as scum, or why you think I wanted my plan to fail at all, but whatever. Maybe if I didn't have a job and I was able to defend my plan from the first minute it was posted until the last possible minute I would of been able to shutdown these mind numbing responses I was forced to read and respond to hours after the fact when I knew it was too fucking late. This is why I claimed my role since I hoped it would trigger others to do it as well because I knew I didn't have the time to argue through the entire day to convince the first blue to claim which would be a pain in the ass without unanimous support as I obviously wasn't going to have with the aforementioned mentality being so omnipresent. Case 1) RoL's plan is to have the 4 blues claim, but the town partially rejects his plan. In this case, nobody claims, no harm done. Case 2) RoL's plan is to have everyone claim, but the town partially rejects his plan. In the case, some vts claim, giving the scum information. Why would you structure your plan in a way that is distinct only insofar as it can harm town? | ||
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On January 11 2012 16:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: If only I was streaming, you could of seen me reword it for niceties around 4 times. Look, here's a point i'm going to make-- even now, most of the town believes your plan was bad. It doesn't matter whether or not you were around at the time to defend it, even now that you have, people are AT BEST saying "well at least RoL himself thought it was a good plan" as their defense of you. Nobody likes your plan. It's bad, and it causes serious issues for town. It's not even the best version of the plan. It's the version that when it comes off the way it does, gives the scum a lot of extra info they shouldn't have. It's anti-town. Like you. | ||
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On January 11 2012 16:45 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I see your point, and it definitely was another approach to it. But having EVERYONE claim helped debunk your second issue of a counterclaim. If we forced everyone to claim as opposed to just the blues I viewed it as likely to get us more accurate claims and less likely to get a counterclaim overall since the scum couldn't wait until all the "blues" had claimed and then decide what to do, as soon as they were active, if the plan was accepted they would be expected to claim green/blue. And once again, I viewed it as a bit of a gamble to get it rolling in the short time span (20ish hours) I had to get it going. I tried to use my claim as a hinging point that others would jump on, it clearly didn't work because I knew it hinged off the first few responses which were all negative. Um, if there's a counterclaim, it's the same situation-- 5 blues, and they claim roles. Your method is just worse for town, and has been worse for town. | ||
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On January 11 2012 16:49 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So instead of bringing this up as an addendum, you bring it up now after the fact to criticize me? That's so productive. You were here, you have like 10 pages of filter to read, you had every opportunity to try and build on or rip down my plan, yet I recall rarely ever responding to you up until now, when shit doesn't matter anymore. So you admit your plan is terrible then. | ||
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On January 11 2012 16:50 Blazinghand wrote: So you admit your plan is terrible then. Cause, you know, that's what everyone else thinks. | ||
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On January 11 2012 16:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: And as an aside, that perceived ad hominem wasn't directed entirely at you. It was a general complaint at me rehashing the same points in at least 5-6 posts because kept bringing up the same (wrong) issue. and this one? On January 11 2012 16:23 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: ![[image loading]](http://reecesrainbow.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/13p98.jpg) How could I ever forget this gaze incessantly staring at me? | ||
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On January 11 2012 16:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: It was the idea of having the scum under pressure and making them act more impulsively. I preferred a scenario without a CC and wanted to do what I thought would minimize that chance. There are certain things I didn't wish to say because I didn't want scum to realize things that could be mildly irksome. But even those things that could put little bumps in my suggested plan weren't significant enough to turn it into a losing strategy for us. And as an aside, that perceived ad hominem wasn't directed entirely at you. It was a general complaint at me rehashing the same points in at least 5-6 posts because kept bringing up the same (wrong) issue. But seriously, we are spamming the thread. I am honestly going to sleep this time and not F5ing until 8 hours from now if not more. In any case, it's pretty clear that even in the event that your idea held water, this was not the best implementation of it. You spend like 3 days not posting and thinking of this plan. I think you're pretty smart. I think Town RoL would ask the blues to claim, not the vts + blues. The idea that blues-only-claiming being more susceptible to counter-claims without vts claiming doesn't make sense-- it's not clear there's a counter-claim until all the blues are there either way. | ||
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On January 11 2012 17:26 Cwave wrote: Why are we still discussing a very bad plan? RoL thinks it's a good plan. ;_; | ||
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Or rather, he CLAIMS to think it's a good plan. Which is suspicious. | ||
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On January 11 2012 19:12 Bluelightz wrote: Hmm, I'm back guys so here's my thoughts risk.nuke Grackaroni Really, he votes by saying like this. I Agree with you X, (short reason) and he also votes at the current vote leader. Looking for an easy lynch? Also, since Palmar's flip I am suspicious at the people who tried to not vote him So, I think risk is a good lynch but, I am suspicuous of Grackaroni I think risk is a good lynch and I am suspicious of the "tennis Gracket" as they call him. There are 5 scum in this game, there's no reason they can't both be scum. The fact of the matter is, Grack produces wool, bleats, and actually has some nice cheese-- rare in modern cuisine but you can find it at the local market. I am saying he is a sheep. Or rather, he wants to look like a sheep, but really he is wolf in sheep's clothing. Still, I don't think his case matches up to RoL's, or to Risk's, since Risk is blantant scum, somehow moreso even than RoL. | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote: - You may not include (embed) images or videos in your posts. I have inadvertantly quoted RoL who was in violation of this rule, but in doing so have violated it. You can find my post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=65#1288 + Show Spoiler + and his post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=64#1274 + Show Spoiler + On January 11 2012 16:23 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: How could I ever forget this gaze incessantly staring at me? May I edit my post to not include the quoted embedded image? | ||
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Yeah eveyrone knows you're gonna flip scum | ||
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._. That wad town play eh? Well we can lynch RoL tmr | ||
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On January 12 2012 05:48 Tyrran wrote: Fine with me, expect a full case during the first 24 hours of day3. Honestly you should post it now just in case you get shot. Unless you're an angel and know you have nothing to worry about. | ||
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On January 12 2012 12:05 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @Jackal Zbot can count votes from a thread, not sure why Zona chose to use PM's for voting for this game (maybe because of the corrupted town deal?), but so be it. That thing is still fucking cool. Zbot counts posts via pm because a demon typing "##force vote risk.nuke: blazinghand" or something into the thread would be uh, pretty obvious. This is why we post in the thread any time we vote. | ||
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On January 13 2012 02:56 syllogism wrote: I can't believe I somehow had missed this So first you called them both scum and then 10 minutes later you have to read Tyrran's filter to answer. You never posted your thoughts on Tyrran after that. You have done absolutely nothing in the last few days. I'd read the rest of your filter but it's a bit too taunting to bother right now, but just the above peculiarity is starting to make me wonder if your scum play too resembles that of WBGs. I didn't say i was gonna read tyrran's filter, just that i need to if I want to make a read. And honestly, I haven't read tyrran's filter, and when I feel like it, I'll make a read on him. At the moment, though, that's completely non-relevant to my interests. You know why? Because I've already got a target that I'm 100% sure is scum, and I will push him until he gets lynched. That's all that matters now. I literally don't give a dick about what other people are because at the moment we need to kill RoL. He's obvious scum and the fact that people are unwilling to lynch him despite the fact that he's literally done nothing useful all game is disheartening at best. | ||
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Don't half-ass it. Make your case, if you really think it exists. If you don't, you're either a lazy worthless town or a scum player stirring shit. #ComeAtMeBro | ||
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On January 13 2012 03:27 syllogism wrote: Oh another instant delurker. Your case is incredibly bad whether RoL is scum or not and thus it's extremely difficult to believe your confidence is genuine Are you kidding me? No, you're just not reading it. RoL's plan is bad. If he believed in his plan, he'd be pushing it right now! THINK ABOUT IT. The plan applies as long as no masked flips have happened yet, now on N2 is our last chance to implement it. He's obvious scum pushing a shitty plan to get a couple VT claims. God, it's like you don't even bother making reads. Or like you're his scumbuddy. | ||
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On January 13 2012 03:30 syllogism wrote: You hadn't read tyrran's filter, but you called him scum. You still haven't read his filter, but you call him scum. ??? No response to my questions I see, just dodging. | ||
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On January 13 2012 03:30 syllogism wrote: You hadn't read tyrran's filter, but you called him scum. You still haven't read his filter, but you call him scum. "hi my name is syllogism and I'm trying to make a case against blazinghand, but because I'm scum I won't actually make one, and instead just say random stuff" <--- this is you, syllogism | ||
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On January 13 2012 03:37 layabout wrote: Blazinghand please stop being an idiot. Make actual arguments and criticsms. Realise that you will not be right all of the time. Stop the tunnelling. Grow a pair. >no you're an idiot >um what >I'm not right all of the time, see E-dawg >I'm gonna push RoL because he's scum. The fact that you're blind to the truth doesn't mean i'm tunneling >no u | ||
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On January 13 2012 03:38 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @Syllo Based on what I have seen of his play/thoughts on other games, I think Blazinghand may genuinely believe his case on RoL is good. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT I BELIEVE. What matters is that it *IS* objectively a good case. God what is iit with you people and belief Look RoL obviously scum, why isnt' he pushing his plan RIGHT NOW. WHY ISN'T ROL PUSHING HIS PLAN RIGHT NOW THATS RIGHT HES SCUM AND ITS A SHITTY PLAN | ||
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On January 13 2012 03:40 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Maybe he isn't pushing his plan because we already overwhelmingly rejected it? But then why was he defending it so hard during the day when it didn't matter? No, he pushed his plan during d2, but not now during the night. Even more damning evidence atop a veritable mountain of damning evidence. | ||
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On January 13 2012 04:16 layabout wrote: I will almost certainly regret this after this post + Show Spoiler + On January 13 2012 02:56 syllogism wrote: I can't believe I somehow had missed this So first you called them both scum and then 10 minutes later you have to read Tyrran's filter to answer. You never posted your thoughts on Tyrran after that. You have done absolutely nothing in the last few days. I'd read the rest of your filter but it's a bit too taunting to bother right now, but just the above peculiarity is starting to make me wonder if your scum play too resembles that of WBGs. On January 13 2012 03:24 Blazinghand wrote: I didn't say i was gonna read tyrran's filter, just that i need to if I want to make a read. And honestly, I haven't read tyrran's filter, and when I feel like it, I'll make a read on him. At the moment, though, that's completely non-relevant to my interests. You know why? Because I've already got a target that I'm 100% sure is scum, and I will push him until he gets lynched. That's all that matters now. I literally don't give a dick about what other people are because at the moment we need to kill RoL. He's obvious scum and the fact that people are unwilling to lynch him despite the fact that he's literally done nothing useful all game is disheartening at best. On January 13 2012 03:24 Blazinghand wrote: Also tyrran is probs scum On January 13 2012 03:27 syllogism wrote: Oh another instant delurker. Your case is incredibly bad whether RoL is scum or not and thus it's extremely difficult to believe your confidence is genuine On January 13 2012 03:28 Blazinghand wrote: Also if you have a case to make against me, read my filter and make it. If I'm scum, you need to put together a comprehensive case. My filter is large, but that shouldn't be daunting-- there should be a plethora of evidence for you to find. Also my filter isn't THAT large. Don't half-ass it. Make your case, if you really think it exists. If you don't, you're either a lazy worthless town or a scum player stirring shit. #ComeAtMeBro On January 13 2012 03:29 Blazinghand wrote: Are you kidding me? No, you're just not reading it. RoL's plan is bad. If he believed in his plan, he'd be pushing it right now! THINK ABOUT IT. The plan applies as long as no masked flips have happened yet, now on N2 is our last chance to implement it. He's obvious scum pushing a shitty plan to get a couple VT claims. God, it's like you don't even bother making reads. Or like you're his scumbuddy. On January 13 2012 03:30 syllogism wrote: You hadn't read tyrran's filter, but you called him scum. You still haven't read his filter, but you call him scum. On January 13 2012 03:30 Blazinghand wrote: ??? No response to my questions I see, just dodging. On January 13 2012 03:31 Blazinghand wrote: "hi my name is syllogism and I'm trying to make a case against blazinghand, but because I'm scum I won't actually make one, and instead just say random stuff" <--- this is you, syllogism On January 13 2012 03:34 Blazinghand wrote: yeah dont got nothing to say to that do ya On January 13 2012 03:39 Blazinghand wrote: IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT I BELIEVE. What matters is that it *IS* objectively a good case. God what is iit with you people and belief Look RoL obviously scum, why isnt' he pushing his plan RIGHT NOW. WHY ISN'T ROL PUSHING HIS PLAN RIGHT NOW THATS RIGHT HES SCUM AND ITS A SHITTY PLAN @Anybody that isn't Blazinghand What the flying fuck do you think Blazing hand is doing here? Do you think he makes any valid points at all? Do you see any questions that he has asked that syllogism is dodging? I will henceforth ignore Blazinghand Really? You think that's gonna help us out? Come on, man ._. If you think I'm town, and you're ignoring me... what are you doing? Ignore me if you think i'm 100% scum, sure. But if you think I'm scum, make a case for me being scum and push it. And if you're not sure? If you think I may be town? I wouldn't be ignoring me. | ||
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On January 13 2012 04:17 Dirkzor wrote: Blazinghand, I think your case is bad. We can agree that RoL have been useless but so have others. The only real argument you have is that he proposed his plan deliberatly to hurt town which I find unlikely. His reasons for not pushing the plan now is actually quite pro-town in my book since it would just hinder other discussion. And he may have different ways of pushing his case then posting the same thing over and over *cough* BH *cough*. Either way, I have written it before and I'll do so again. I think RoL is a bad lynch. I would like to see him scumhunt soon though. RoL hasn't scumhunted all game. IF he believed in his plan he'd be pushing it now because he can still iplement it. He's argued his plan all day, but why stop at night, when it's time to mass roleclaim? Why use a sub-optimal version of the plan in which VTs claim, which hurts town? You don't find that scummy? | ||
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On January 13 2012 04:18 Blazinghand wrote: Really? You think that's gonna help us out? Come on, man ._. If you think I'm town, and you're ignoring me... what are you doing? Ignore me if you think i'm 100% scum, sure. But if you think I'm scum, make a case for me being scum and push it. And if you're not sure? If you think I may be town? I wouldn't be ignoring me. I seem to recall specifically stating at some point that we were not ostriches, and we do not have our heads in the sand. I guess I stand corrected. | ||
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On January 13 2012 04:16 layabout wrote: I will almost certainly regret this after this post + Show Spoiler + On January 13 2012 02:56 syllogism wrote: I can't believe I somehow had missed this So first you called them both scum and then 10 minutes later you have to read Tyrran's filter to answer. You never posted your thoughts on Tyrran after that. You have done absolutely nothing in the last few days. I'd read the rest of your filter but it's a bit too taunting to bother right now, but just the above peculiarity is starting to make me wonder if your scum play too resembles that of WBGs. On January 13 2012 03:24 Blazinghand wrote: I didn't say i was gonna read tyrran's filter, just that i need to if I want to make a read. And honestly, I haven't read tyrran's filter, and when I feel like it, I'll make a read on him. At the moment, though, that's completely non-relevant to my interests. You know why? Because I've already got a target that I'm 100% sure is scum, and I will push him until he gets lynched. That's all that matters now. I literally don't give a dick about what other people are because at the moment we need to kill RoL. He's obvious scum and the fact that people are unwilling to lynch him despite the fact that he's literally done nothing useful all game is disheartening at best. On January 13 2012 03:24 Blazinghand wrote: Also tyrran is probs scum On January 13 2012 03:27 syllogism wrote: Oh another instant delurker. Your case is incredibly bad whether RoL is scum or not and thus it's extremely difficult to believe your confidence is genuine On January 13 2012 03:28 Blazinghand wrote: Also if you have a case to make against me, read my filter and make it. If I'm scum, you need to put together a comprehensive case. My filter is large, but that shouldn't be daunting-- there should be a plethora of evidence for you to find. Also my filter isn't THAT large. Don't half-ass it. Make your case, if you really think it exists. If you don't, you're either a lazy worthless town or a scum player stirring shit. #ComeAtMeBro On January 13 2012 03:29 Blazinghand wrote: Are you kidding me? No, you're just not reading it. RoL's plan is bad. If he believed in his plan, he'd be pushing it right now! THINK ABOUT IT. The plan applies as long as no masked flips have happened yet, now on N2 is our last chance to implement it. He's obvious scum pushing a shitty plan to get a couple VT claims. God, it's like you don't even bother making reads. Or like you're his scumbuddy. On January 13 2012 03:30 syllogism wrote: You hadn't read tyrran's filter, but you called him scum. You still haven't read his filter, but you call him scum. On January 13 2012 03:30 Blazinghand wrote: ??? No response to my questions I see, just dodging. On January 13 2012 03:31 Blazinghand wrote: "hi my name is syllogism and I'm trying to make a case against blazinghand, but because I'm scum I won't actually make one, and instead just say random stuff" <--- this is you, syllogism On January 13 2012 03:34 Blazinghand wrote: yeah dont got nothing to say to that do ya On January 13 2012 03:39 Blazinghand wrote: IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT I BELIEVE. What matters is that it *IS* objectively a good case. God what is iit with you people and belief Look RoL obviously scum, why isnt' he pushing his plan RIGHT NOW. WHY ISN'T ROL PUSHING HIS PLAN RIGHT NOW THATS RIGHT HES SCUM AND ITS A SHITTY PLAN @Anybody that isn't Blazinghand What the flying fuck do you think Blazing hand is doing here? Do you think he makes any valid points at all? Do you see any questions that he has asked that syllogism is dodging? I will henceforth ignore Blazinghand Man if only I was a helpful poster like Layabout: On January 13 2012 03:37 layabout wrote: Blazinghand please stop being an idiot. Make actual arguments and criticsms. Realise that you will not be right all of the time. Stop the tunnelling. Grow a pair. Layabout if you'd like to address your questions at me and "grow a pair" let me know, I'd be glad to answer them. | ||
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On January 13 2012 04:27 Dirkzor wrote: Why is the roleclaiming plan better during night then it is during the day? It makes no real difference. I think it would be the other way around because the claiming could give us a good lynch target (The contradicting blues or one of the VT if only 4 blue claimed) Um, look dude the issue is that chance are the AoD's gonna do a masked kill tonight, right? After a masked kill RoL's plan no longer works. This is his last chance to push it. Where has he been? On January 13 2012 04:27 Dirkzor wrote: About whether the blues only should claim. Hmm... It wouldn't really make a difference if town decided to actaully do the plan, since everyone who did not claim bluerole would be VT. During the time where not everyone had claimed it would have made a difference yes, but not such a big deal that it paints him as the big red target that you make him out to be. The issue here is that he spent 3 days thinking of his plan and doing nothing, and claims he's solved the setup, when he hasn't, and it's not even the best version of his plan. I didn't spend 3 days thinking of his plan and that's a fairly obvious flaw in it. And if his plan comes off in a half-banked manner like it did this time? And a couple VTs claim, but no blues? scumteam gets hella info. Doesn't that seem like a porblem for you? | ||
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On January 13 2012 05:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @Blazinghand I understand you think RoL is scum and all, but don't you think it might be useful to look through the other filters as well? In case you see something that makes someone else a better target than him, or that exonerates RoL in some way? Focus is fine, pure tunneling is not. I'm focused on Tyrran, but I read everyone else's filter at least once before making my giant post, and have read at least a half dozen of them again since making it. Fair enough-- I have, in fact, examined other filters, though. It's not like the only thing I've done this game is push the RoL lynch. I'll take some time to examine tyrran and write a case post about him, as I have for other players. On January 13 2012 05:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Also, your filter just hit page 15 and this is a 72 page thread in an 18 player game. -just saying- First off, it's an 18 player game, but like only 16 of us are alive right. Also we've got dudes with tiny, tiny filters in here, from captain mcbad Erandorr to guys like Mr Wiggles or Jackal whose filters are best described as "shockingly brief". Also I don't see what the problem is with posting a lot. | ||
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On January 13 2012 06:42 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Because I want him shot tonight by the DH. He probably won't flip, though, as I get the feeling he's an angel more than a demon, so the seer can potentially check him as well. It also solves the problem of having to convince people to lynch him if he flips demon, as most people seem very reluctant to push anyone who they see as a "vet". @Blazinghand, you still haven't responded to the contradiction that Syllogism pointed out in your posting. Do so. On January 13 2012 02:56 syllogism wrote: I can't believe I somehow had missed this So first you called them both scum and then 10 minutes later you have to read Tyrran's filter to answer. You never posted your thoughts on Tyrran after that. You have done absolutely nothing in the last few days. I'd read the rest of your filter but it's a bit too taunting to bother right now, but just the above peculiarity is starting to make me wonder if your scum play too resembles that of WBGs. I called tyran scum because he strikes me as scum. I haven't read his filter and therefore cannot make a case for him. That doesn't mean I haven't read all his posts-- I read the thread itself. If you ask me to make a read on Tyrran right now without reading his filter I will call him scum. If you ask me to present a case on Tyrran and make my read, it will take some time. I am in the process of doing so right now. I haven't read his filter. But he looks like scum to me. | ||
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step 1) read some person's post step 2) think for 4-5 seconds step 3) respond with 1-2 lines of text the other 10% of my posts are step 1) spend several hours reading someone's filter and putting together a comprehensive case on them step 2) think for 45 minutes step 3) present case In my initial post in which I said "these two guys are scum" i was like "man these two guys are scum, sounds legit, hit post button" If you really want a good Tyrran opinion from me though I don't have one yet-- just my ininformed 1-liner opinion. | ||
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On January 13 2012 06:54 syllogism wrote: While I'm not going to bother reading Blazing's filter, I'm just going to assume that his mafia play wouldn't look like this, despite how little sense he makes. Also someone who I'm just going to start ignoring every game. ._. cmon man. You can't just assume my mafia play wouldn't look like this-- you don't even know what my mafia play looks like. What if I'm mafia? dont' be lazy. | ||
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On January 13 2012 06:54 syllogism wrote: I think he is likely mafia by this point, though probably not the absolutely best lynch. I do not think he is mafia due to the awful plan, but rather for being otherwise completely worthless and disinterested. I imagine Grackaroni, cwave, spaackle, tyrran, Jackal is scum infested too. Jackal's tone is okay, and that is usually the easiest way to spot his scum play, but he is still just lurking and tunnelling a different person every day. If you think he's not the best lynch, who is? I think RoL is the best lynch, but I've been open to new ideas before. | ||
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On January 13 2012 06:56 Blazinghand wrote: ._. cmon man. You can't just assume my mafia play wouldn't look like this-- you don't even know what my mafia play looks like. What if I'm mafia? dont' be lazy. Also man way to be a dick. Like, no need to be like "i'm just gonna ignore this guy every game" when apparently you agree with me on RoL. | ||
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On January 13 2012 07:15 Refallen wrote: Honestly, I'm getting pretty tired of RoL saying he's busy and disappearing for stretches of a time. If he dosen't start giving us some reads and scumhunting I am actually fine with lynching him tomorrow. <3 Honestly though he's had so many chances to be useful and he has not been. This game's been going for like 10 IRL days. | ||
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On January 13 2012 07:33 Refallen wrote: Honestly, I think syllo is one of my strongest (and only) town reads this game, along with blazhinghand. If he gets sent to purgatory and AoD dosen't hit , it isn't too far fetched to say that he was simply targetted again. That's a fair point. That being said, it's fairly unlikely that such a thing will happen. As a side note, we don't want corrupted town to claim, right? But if that's the case, wouldn't it be obvious they were corrupted just because they'd be like voting not they way they want to vote? | ||
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On January 13 2012 07:32 syllogism wrote: For the record, I do not want to survive the night Given that we all implicitly softclaim VT by not claiming Blue, this is a reasonable statement for any person in this thread to make. As a VT, if you get the mafia to burn their shots/roleblocks (or both!) on you because you're being too helpful, then you've done some good work, and bought your blues another night. | ||
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On January 13 2012 07:52 Cwave wrote: No it is not a reasonable statement?! This is a 3 faction game, there are 2 scum teams... You want scum to die, whatever scumfaction that is. You don't want "VT's to take hits" when there are 2 scums teams out there. What the hell/heaven is this... -.- Ah, that's true-- the ideal night kill for town isn't a non-blue townie getting shot, but a member of the gunless mafia getting shot. forgot about the multifactional element there herp derp | ||
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On January 13 2012 08:12 layabout wrote: Is it worth asking Zona to let me edit the post to update the Bullshit score counter? Um.... no? Just make a new post ._. why would you want to edit the existing one | ||
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On January 13 2012 08:24 Spaackle wrote: I'll be around for a little while, so feel free to ask/tell/compliment/insult me anything. I got a good one for you Mr Spaacks. Check it. On January 10 2012 13:02 Spaackle wrote: I'm with you on this one, BH. At first I thought that the RoL plan was merely just an ill-thought out plan, but after your and Mr Wiggles' arguments against it, now I see that the RoL plan isn't just bad, but that it seems to be intentionally anti-town. I want to see a defense from RoL, but until then: ##vote RebirthOfLegend OK On January 11 2012 14:31 Spaackle wrote: So, after a bit more of BH and RoL duking it out, I've decided to Unvote RoL for now. RoL has spent a long time and a lot of effort defending it, and a scum Probably would have dropped it long ago. RoL is still pretty null to me, though. Give me a bit more time to finish catching up on the thread and reading some filter, and I'll have an analysis for both Tyrran and risk.nuke Wow, way to bail for no reason What do you think about RoL now? On January 13 2012 08:23 Spaackle wrote: RoL: he's basically invisible for the first day, then during night one he comes up with a plan to mass claim. His plan is torn to shreds by everyone else while he quietly slips back into the shadows, reemerging only to defend his plan but not to do much of anything else. His lurkiness combined with his lack of contribution makes me think that he is a scum. Between him and Tyrran, I'd probably lynch RoL first. >.> Explain your flip-flopping, mr. flip-flopper. | ||
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On January 13 2012 08:51 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: For someone so painfully active (20% of total posts) it's amazing how you don't even know how many players are still alive. 16 is closer than 18 to 15 also like this is the least "relevant to people's criticisms of RoL" post you could make | ||
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On January 13 2012 08:50 Spaackle wrote: When I moved off of RoL, it was because the argument between you and him had gotten kind of silly and was filling up the thread. I looked at both risk and RoL, and risk looked like thebetter lynch. I would have voted him, but he was hammered before I could. So when you moved off RoL, you thought he was still a decent lynch, but risk was better? | ||
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On January 13 2012 08:53 syllogism wrote: Limited time and instantly delurk ??? | ||
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On January 13 2012 08:57 Mr. Wiggles wrote: HoD claimed he has limited time, and then when syllo asked him a question, he instantly showed up. Ah, that makes sense. I'm not a Harbringer fan either then. Sounds like he was scum trying to find an excuse to lurk, then forgot that he was "gone" and came back to respond to someone. | ||
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And if so I will gladly dismantle ever more of his arguments. | ||
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On January 13 2012 09:01 Spaackle wrote: @BH I partially used my RoL vote to get him to come out in the open. I think he is a good lynch, and I did when I voted him, but risk was still better to me. You dodged my question. On January 13 2012 08:54 Blazinghand wrote: So when you moved off RoL, you thought he was still a decent lynch, but risk was better? when you moved off RoL, did you think he was a decent lynch, but risk was better? Answer. | ||
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On January 13 2012 09:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: You are terrible and when I finish reading your godforsaken filter I will explain why. Glad to hear it. If you're town, hopefully you'll make some sort of attempt at scumhunting, addressing various people's concerns about your posting and play this game, and contribute to the town in a meaningful fashion. In any case, I've waited like 10 days for you to post something real. I can wait a little longer. Also, be a good boy and post it before the day post in case one of us wakes up dead. | ||
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On January 13 2012 09:10 Spaackle wrote: I'm pretty sure I did answer your question, BH. I said that yes, when I moved off RoL I thought risk was the better lynch. So when you moved off RoL, you though RoL was scum, but you were more sure about risk? | ||
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On January 13 2012 09:11 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Sigh, its a shame I know you won't end up dead, since from what I read I can infer you are most likely an Angel. I will elaborate when I finish reading, but to be honest I doubt I will get it in before the day post since I have to head to the gym in a bit and there is no way I can read and give a proper analysis in that amount of time. I do promise that I will put something out within the next 12 hours and it will be worthwhile. You can all hold me to that. "hey guys don't worry i'm just gonna delay some more, but you know I haven't been lurking all game so it's cool" | ||
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On January 13 2012 09:14 syllogism wrote: Just like we could hold you to this? Day ends in 50 minutes Yeah finally people are beginning to see the truth. RoL has been hustlin us for like 10 days I have no idea why anyone at all believes anything he says | ||
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On January 13 2012 09:15 Spaackle wrote: @ BH: yes. On January 11 2012 14:31 Spaackle wrote: So, after a bit more of BH and RoL duking it out, I've decided to Unvote RoL for now. RoL has spent a long time and a lot of effort defending it, and a scum Probably would have dropped it long ago. RoL is still pretty null to me, though. Give me a bit more time to finish catching up on the thread and reading some filter, and I'll have an analysis for both Tyrran and risk.nuke That's weird I thought he was pretty null to you | ||
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On January 13 2012 09:16 Grackaroni wrote: Whoa, what I gathered from your filter was that you were no longer sure that RoL was scum and had a null read on him when you removed your vote. YESSS see! I'm a fucking G All I do is fuck bitches get money and reveal Spaackles contraditictions all day oonts ootns oonts oonts | ||
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On January 13 2012 09:20 Spaackle wrote: Except that since then I've been pushing for his lynch. He looked a bit null to me at the moment, but I still suspected him as a scum. I just wanted to concentrate more on getting rid of risk at the moment. Oh man Spaackle from January 13 you sound like you thought he was scum I wonder who can argue with you??? let me ask spaackle from January 11 On January 11 2012 14:31 Spaackle wrote: I've decided to Unvote RoL for now. RoL has spent a long time and a lot of effort defending it, and a scum Probably would have dropped it long ago. RoL is still pretty null to me, though. huh thats weird I wonder which spaackle is right | ||
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Of course I knew RoL wouldn't live up to his promises | ||
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On January 13 2012 10:01 Zephirdd wrote: Am I the only one that thought it was weird that syllo said "I want to die tonight", as in "I don't want to be jailed so I can perform night actions" AS IN "I am the reason why there were no night kills by Angels during n1"? That's a hole in one very good plan. | ||
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Or rather, idea. Also did syllo get double purgatoried or what | ||
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##vote: reborthoflegend | ||
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On January 13 2012 10:11 syllogism wrote: Someone is exceptionally stupid Could someone please enlighten me about this? | ||
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If I were RoL this is where I'd say "brb 3 hours" then come back on Tuesday | ||
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However, your case is against me, so I will defend myself. I don't count out the scumhunting efforts of scum automatically in this game because there are two factions-- you could well believe your own case, and be a Demon trying to edge his team back into this game, etc. Without further ado, my point-by-point rebuttals: On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Part I: Day 1 Day 1 for BlazingHand can be characterized by a couple of issues that I think are worth noting, but barring his Day 2 activity wouldn't necessarily consider top candidate. Firstly, he focuses heavily on the set up. Then we look at his interaction with the Palmar. The third thing I am not too sure how to feel about is his overbearing activity. He is absolutely dominating the towns posts, his filter quite frankly is such a ridiculous amount to read it would scare off most people. I know I usually wouldn't bother reading WBG's filter in games because its usually like 8-10 pages within the first couple of days. By the end of day two his filter was 14 pages long, and accomplished an absolutely retarded amount of nothing except making this game insanely annoying to read. To be fair, the actual length of my filter (in terms of word count rather than, say, post count) isn't so bad. Most my posts are overwhelmingly short except for my analysis posts, which are few but long. My filter is susbtantially longer than average for this game, but not so much that it's some herculean feat to actually read it. I gladly encourage people to read and think for themselves rather than blindly accepting what RoL has to say (or even what *I* have to say, as a matter of principle) about any person's filter. By the end of day two, my filter didn't do nothing-- I successfully, erm, pushed an Erandorr lynch. Now, granted, Erandorr flipped town, but most people thought he was scum, and voted their thoughts. It wasn't like I was posting mindless drivel. On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So that being said let's get to his set up analysis. Now generally speaking, it is considered a bit scummy to dwell on a set up and post a about it. In this case due to the extremely unusual nature of the game I might be able to forgive that. For point of reference, I will include the posts in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2012 15:57 Blazinghand wrote: Sup guys? I'm Blazinghand. :DDDDD A thought from me: Angels have like 1.5 KPs atm, and that drops to 1 (since the acolyte doesn't always get a kill)-- their power goes down with time. Demons have 0 kps but fight us for control of the lynch (among other things), their power goes up with time. The demon team isn't able to kill people, but it's got a lot of ways to manipulate elections-- and these only increase with power as the game goes on. I think the early game threat in terms of scum are angels, and the late game threat in terms of scum are demons, just because they could pretty easily control these elections. The demons seem to have it tougher, but things will get much easier for them as the day goes on. Also, due to the secret vote, vote count analysis isn't available, which makes me feel somewhat at a loss. I think we'll have to hold people accountable to what they say, since we can't hold them accountable to how they vote. Although we have a variety of interesting blue roles at our disposal, our chief focus has to be on scumhunting and succeeding via lynch early while we still have assured control of the vote. So, a question: we should/can totally claim corruption when we get corrupted? This exposes us to death via acolyte, but also lets us see who's corrupted and get an idea of how many votes we actually have doing something. This won't really be an issue for a couple days, though. Another question: is it sensible at all to "try" to get angels or demons first? I haven't played in a multifactional mafia game before, and am looking for some advice here-- or do we just scumhunt and lynch who we find? Another thought: the possibility for masked flips from the Angel of Death really scares me. I don't like the idea of someone dying and us not having any idea who it was. I don't really know what else to say on that subject but I thought I'd bring it up. We will, of course, be killing Angels exclusively via lynch-- our "vig" type role, the Demon Hunter, can only kill townies and angels. Don't forget to breadcrumb everything, blues. Also, let's try not to lurk, and promote healthy discussion like the sick nerd baller town we deserve to be. On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote: I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote: Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff? Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing On January 04 2012 16:57 Blazinghand wrote: This sounds super correct. Once the Angel of Death or Angelic Acolyte is dead, claiming corrupted won't result in instant death since even if the Angelic Acolyte is still alive, at that point it'll be easier to just Slay rather than try to pick up a KP via Stalk. On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote: Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier On January 04 2012 17:56 Blazinghand wrote: Nice dodge-- respond with questions, yes, that looks credible. Look, I haven't thought of anything. But if I did, I'd surely share it with the rest of the town, and I encourage others to do so. Why are you so adamant about supporting a crappy posting policy? If I think of something, I'll share it with people, as should everyone else. I think this is what creates a good town environment. The last post specifically, I have bolded an interesting point. He wants us to share plans, then shits all over me when I do it. Fine whatever, the set up posting was minor we can let that slide. The setup posting was minor? ._. there was nothing else to talk about. I don't know why you brought this up. If you don't feel this is an important part of your case, then I will not address it other than this: I wanted us to share plans, so I could promote a healthy town discussion and find scum. Someone shared plans-- and that person happened to be scum, and it became clear from his horrid, terrible plan (at least to me) that this was the case. This is not inconsistent with me wanting us to share plans. On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: The next part I want to focus on is his other player interactions. Generally he is hostile with most players, while on Day 1 it can be a good way to generate discussion I don't believe that was entirely what he was doing, some of it was straight up bullying which just makes it so townies are less likely to challenge you, and more likely to sheep with you to avoid confrontations. I will include some of the posts in a spoiler once again. + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2012 18:06 Blazinghand wrote: Ah yes you're right let's figure out how to fight scum without talking about how they think or what they might do, and if we have thoughts about this and need help let's not get help from each other about it. Hey look when I put words in your mouth it sounds bad too! The point i'm trying to make here is that a healthy discussion of what Angel and Demons might use as a strat and what we can do to counter it is very important, especially if you don't immediately know the counter strategy. On January 04 2012 18:09 Blazinghand wrote: IN FACT YOU EVEN RESPOND TO THAT POST RIGHT HERE: Why aren't you telling Refallen off? because you forgot for a moment about your poorly-thought-out rule and acted like a reasonable person. Try to do that more and think about your "well lets never discuss what scum actions might look like in this complicated setup" rule less. On January 05 2012 04:31 Blazinghand wrote: The #1 goal of a town player should be to establish their innocence. Look, regardless of whether "oh bluelightz isn't establishing his innocence" or whatever, just look at that filter. That is an unhelpful dude. I don't have a solid scumread atm, but we've got 3 lurkers and one guy who's posted like 6 one-liners and said nothing. This is fine because probably the lurkers are asleep-- but ideally we have a sweet day1 discussion and get some juices flowing. I will not stand for an inactive crappy town. I will NOT get used to players not establishing their innocence. I will hunt down and kill all the scum whether in doing so I earn YOUR approval or not. Is Mr. Wiggles playing? On January 05 2012 04:34 Blazinghand wrote: If anything, I'm burning bridges. The fact of the matter is, I'm not trying to get town cred by forcing a case off thin air, because doing so is how you lose town cred. My case is solid as hell. The guy was here for 3 hours and made 6 posts saying nothing. This is unacceptable and I will not stand for it. If people do not post day 1, or try to hide, or like make 1 post then dip up out of here, of course we will lynch them. However, it's possible some of the players who haven't posted are still asleep, and it seems Mr. Wiggles may not be playing at all. Solid case indeed chap, you base it off useless posts. Definitely no signs of weakness. On January 05 2012 04:36 Blazinghand wrote: Look if Bluelightz gets off his plane, realizes he's being a tool, and decides to seriously help out, I won't have as much of a case on him any more because he'll be being, well, helpful. It's that simple. It won't be hard for him if he's being town. step 1) be helpful step 2) blazinghand is no longer attacking you And this guy gets up my ass about being a dick to players. On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote: Not to be abrasive or anything, I just don't think there's any reason to pull your punches. Oh cool, because you said not to be abrasive, then its all fine. This is just to establish the needless aggression and discouraging players. I want to establish a difference. When he is doing it here, it is to discourage people from coming against him. When I was posting abrasively in defense of my plan it served the purpose of attempting to shut down contention fast and efficiently because it was a rush scenario. The difference is his is to shut down objections to himself by less aggressive players, while mine was a tactical decision to help my plan get going on an extremely constricted time basis. Now for how he acted about Palmar. He starts off subtle trying to justify the case, then gets full swing behind it before jumping to an easier lynch in Erandorr/Risk.nuke. I will explain what I mean in the spoiler. On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: 'He basically does an entire analysis using wiggles posts which makes him hold zero accountability. On top of this he uses it to justify a vote he has been easing himself into. If you read the filter there is some more posts about palmar, but I feel this adequately sums it up. He hesitates to engage Palmar, then does it vicariously through wiggles arguments. When Palmar flips he could look good for this if it wasn't a two faction game. This is the reasoning I use to determine he must be an Angel. The part that makes him scummy is his absolutely shameless tunneling of me for 5 straight days, then compromising on a different mislynch. Um, ok so I don't know if you actually read my posts, but I'm basically saying I think Mr. Wiggle's arguments are completely shitty and I make up my own to attack Palmar with. At that time of my post, I seriously entertained the idea that they were both scum from different factions. The idea that I'm at once "aggressive and abrasive" but also "afraid to stick my neck out" is dumb. Let me show you the key areas of my case against Palmar where I basically smack down Mr. Wiggles: " Blazinghand Wrote: Mr. Wiggles finds this more non-committal and hedging than I did. This is indeed one of many unhelpful posts by Palmar." " Blazinghand Wrote: So Mr. Wiggles notes the same thing I do about Palmar's weirdness with Bluelightz. He also thinks the follow-up is bad. From a "Wiggles-as-town" perspective, there's two possibilities here: 1) Palmar got an accurate read of town from BL's wishiwashiness, or 2) Palmar is scum trying to look town." Blazinghand Wrote: I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case. I have no reason whatosever to believe Wiggles is town based on the way he put together his case and the fact that he has failed to contribute in a meaningful fashion besides erecting a 5-lane tollbooth-assisted 2-way tunnel at Palmar. what, you think I wouldn't remember MY OWN CASE? I didn't steal it from wiggles, I MADE IT UP MYSELF and SHAT UNREMORSEFULLY ON WIGGLES. That's right guys, I wasn't noncomittal, as RoL claims: I STUCK MY NECK the fuckk out and attacked both players. I said A) Palmar is scum B) Wiggles is right for the wrong reasons and I constructed my own case. Read the actual goddamn post before listening to RoL's bullshit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=27#532 My case against Palmar speaks for itself. I will be continuing this, addressing RoL's second case post in my next post. | ||
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On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Day 2; criticisms "wahh why is blazinghand so mean? my plan is good you guys... why do you all have to be assholes" Whoa, RoL, no need to call us all assholes. That's totally uncalled-for. We're all friends here. In response to your statement proper: No, your plan is bad. Were you town, I'd think you might literally be the only guy besides risk.nuke in this game who thought that plan was even a remotely good idea. On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So moving forward, he not only continues to bring up my plan and how antitown it is and illogically dismissing my arguments which just causes chaos as me and him argue over the same points again and again until my plan is effectively dead. He shuts it down successfully because I don't have the time to argue all day, yet goes a step further and tries to implicate me as scum for it claiming it does things I established it doesn't do. This is the post I am referring to here. You can read the whole exchange after this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081 I believe I get back on page 56 and begin arguing with him, but by that point time is against me and he effectively shut down my plan. Um... what? Let me read that back to you guys again in case you didn't spot the misleading sentence by RoL: RoL: I believe I get back on page 56 and begin arguing with him, but by that point time is against me and he effectively shut down my plan. Time is against you on Page 56? Oh I guess the end of N1 was coming up huh. Maybe my arguing against you during that crucial time prevented you from pusing your plan, eh? Wait, no.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=49#966 Oh waht's this? Day 2 started 7 pages earlier? Weird, I thought that I shut down your plan? Huh. Weird indeed. On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: On day two, I am not attempting to defend my plan for the sake of implementation but more because he's using at as a basis to call me scum, which is flawed in so many ways. The biggest thing though is his constant misrepresentation of things that I said and ignoring shit. 1. I explained this, I was finishing up responsibility in a lylo scenario where we won as town. 2. I explained my logic. If you have a problem with it then attack the logic, don't blanket misrepresent my post. 3. My plan isn't bad. When we are discussing the merits and everything don't blanket call me scum for your inability to read. It's just more examples of complete misrepresentation of the facts. On January 10 2012 08:05 Blazinghand wrote: Like, a summary of the things RoL has done this game: 1) lurk for most of d1 2) try to jump on the erandorr wagon and fail 3) push his bad plan Um... that's literally waht you've done this game. And you can SAY your plan was good all you want, it's still bad ._. I think this is just like so telling of RoL in general. He claims time was against him in the middle of day 2? He still had like several IRL days before the end of night 2 (before any masked flips happened) and he didn't try to get his plan pushed through for the rest of day 2 or any of night 2. He had tons of time. ??? I think RoL is just like misleading us here. I'm not even 100% sure this is a scum move, as his argument is so bad it's beyond meta-- it's just a terrible worthless meaningless QQ argument. "Oh Blazinghand shut down my plan and I ran out of time during the 4 day day/night cycle". On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Further misrepresentation. I was gone for like 8 hours between my plans initial posting, me sleeping, posting a bit from work, then getting home and defending it more. I have shit to do and he continues professing bullshit. The thing is, when you have 20% of all the god damn posts people might begin to believe you after a while. He keeps up dominating posting and shutting down contention without explaining himself. The big thing here is he doesn't look for ANYONE except me. LayAbout points it out and he continues aggressively dismissing players. Yet at the end of the day what happens? He is so sure I am scum but because I know how to defend myself without spamming 14 pages into a game he won't get a lynch on me, then just jumps over to risk.nuke to kill another townie. It just doesn't make sense as a townie. You think I am scum 100%, so completely certain yet you abandon your guns after tunneling me for 5 straight actual days in place of an easy mislynch? I don't get it, no one does. Sure you thought he was mildly suspicious but you can't very well say "Sure I think hes town, but I can't get you all to kill RoL so I'm switching over" The fact is your actions don't line up with your words and you spam the shit out of the game to get your way. I conclude that after all this crap you must be an Angel. I have shit to do and am getting yelled at, when I get up tomorrow we can throw down more, I needed to cut this case short. I also have a few more things I need to write tomorrow but we can get to that later. Anyway, ##Vote BlazingHand This is a bunch of BS. There is actually a legitimate criticism in here, though, a kernel of meaningful opposition in a veritable mound of turd. Why did I vote to lynch risk.nuke? Well, I also thought risk.nuke was scum. I wasn't 100% on him like I basically am on RoL. Why did I vote for risk.nuke? What could he possibly say or do that would make me actually more sure of him than RoL? What weird, unanswered questions. I wonder if RoL would PULL UP MY VOTE POST AND SHOW THE EVIDENCE??? No, he wants only to mislead, to misinform. On January 11 2012 15:37 Blazinghand wrote: ._. no townie would ever say this. Welcome to the top of my list, punk. ##Vote: risk.nuke http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=64#1270 The fact of the matter is, risk.nuke made a post that no townie under any circumstances would make. That is simply not a post you make. The job of a townie is to not get lynched first and foremost-- and him doing this indicated to me that he was claiming scum. So I lynched him. And I stand by that decision. | ||
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On January 14 2012 00:18 Grackaroni wrote: I don't think BH is nearly as pro-town as people think he is. Alright, Grack's finally starting to think for himself. On January 14 2012 00:18 Grackaroni wrote: There have been times in this game where BH has blatantly not read the thread or is misinterpreting posts. He likes to focus in on people who he feels are useless such as his case for Bluelightz (which only showed that he was anti-town) his case on erandorr (he ignores the meta which only proves that he is inactive and doesn't want to be modkilled) and finally his case on RoL (he's not scumhunting, his plan looks shitty) Um... OK never mind, I take it back-- Grack is terrible. 1) My case on Bluelightz was to pressure him. I think I did a good job. I also think I might need to lay some more pressure onto Bluelightz at some point because he has been profoundly unhelpful this game. 2) my case on erandorr what? Erandorr played like shitty dick, and the fact of the matter is, he deserved the lynch he got. I only wish he weren't terrible at playing town and weren't lurking and hustling. He literally did like nothing all game. In the same situation, I'd do the same thing again. 3) um... if you think my case on RoL is bad, make a case for it, don't just say it's bad. Grack, all I can say is that if you want to criticize me that's totes fine, but you should make quotes and like, actually formulate a case rather than... whatever you call this. LOL On January 14 2012 00:18 Grackaroni wrote: You are not actually scumhunting, you just lock in on people acting anti-town and tunnel them for the rest of the day to make yourself look good. you grab all their quotes and make a "case" but in reality it actually resembles what bluelightz' cases look like. Your play is legitimately worse than in Student. I am still suspicious of how long it took RoL to start scumhunting but at least he finally started. @BH: why not look into a player more active rather than only focusing on players doing nothing? there's 5 scum to catch. My play is worse than in Student? Well, that's saying very little. In Student i single-handedly brought down the entire scumteam, and did a fake anti-doctor claim and bought Veli the time he needed to investigate. Being worse than in Student is no problem at all-- if I play a little worse than I did in Student Mafia I'd have lynched 1/3rd of the mafia and fingered the other third by now And the fact of the matter is, RoL hasn't been just a little late or whatever, it's day 3. In any case, I've made my reads and I stick by them. Grackaroni, I've you've got something to say, come at me bro. If you're gonna dick around and not make a real case? I'll just keep on smacking you back down into the mud. | ||
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Also I've got serious issues with BL hustling us, but I consider RoL to be priority #1. BL you better be more useful then pointing out what a shitty player Grack is cause we all already know that. | ||
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On January 14 2012 03:03 Grackaroni wrote: @BH Those are my concerns... My case may not look like your's but I can give you an example of what your's would look like. *post a bunch of BL random useless posts* B-Dawg is hustling let's lynch. you're not actually looking for scum you simply find somebody who is bad or inactive and prove why they are bad or inactive and tunnel them. Quotes and evidence? Just listing "concerns" without backing them up isn't gonna convince our fellow townmates, Grack. You gotta put some effort in. Cmon, man-- if you really believe your case, surely you can spend a moment to find some evidence? | ||
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On January 14 2012 03:15 Tyrran wrote: @Blazinghand : Is there anyone other than RoL that you would like to lynch ? What is your stance on HoD and Dirkzor ? Yes. HoD: I don't think we can straight-up say he's the AoD as some have suggested. he'd be a decent DT check. Dirkzor: Haven't read his filter | ||
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On January 14 2012 06:11 Zephirdd wrote: You friggin' asked for someone to do a case against you if he believed you were scum No offense BH, but many of your posts have been garbage as well. I mean, it's obviously preferable to RoL lurking etc, but it would be nice to hear his opinion on anything else as well. Or if his case had any merit. | ||
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I'm actually somewhat interested, RoL: What are your thoughts on anyone in this game who's not me? If you're not lynching me (and trust me, you're not), who should we target? | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 3 Lynch. With 13 alive, 7 votes are required to lynch. Current votes: RebirthOfLeGenD (2): Grackaroni, Spaackle (1): Zephirdd Bluelightz (1): Jackal58 Blazinghand (1): RebirthOfLeGenD HarbingerOfDoom (1): Tyrran The Day 3 deadline is at January 15 2012 10:00 KST. (That's approximately 1 day, 2:46:32 from now.) | ||
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On January 14 2012 07:13 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Your filter sucks and is massive regardless of how you look at it. Way to try to defend the Erandorr lynch by shoving it off on to other people. I didn't even mention that but your defensiveness on the issue is worth noting. The Erandorr lynch was good and I would do it again in the same circumstances. On January 14 2012 07:13 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I told you I could accept that it was minor and not a huge tell, but given that your day 2 posting was scummy as shit it was worth mentioning as an additive. Nice way to twist your words to justify getting up my ass. Regardless of how scummy you perceived my plan itself as, everyone else saw the way I was pushing it and how passionately I fought for it as being town. You seem to be the only outlier on that issue. This is a load of shit. You used wiggles arguments as a hinging point so if palmar flipped in a bad way you can blame him. You didn't "Shat all over wiggles", not even fucking close. Since when the fuck would Qualify as shitting all over someone? Hint: It doesn't. Your case against Palmar does speak for itself. You used wiggles arguments to create a point for you to start, mildly disagree with wiggles which could set him up for a day two lynch should the Palmar vote take off and then fail to hit scum, and then now that I call you out on it you try to completely exaggerate your negatively towards wiggles and your hostility towards palmar to justify your vote. Bullshit. ??? Wow dude I don't even know what the deal is here. I say that Wiggle's case is bad and I vote Palmar. Is there some problem here? I think you're ignoring most of my criticisms and making stuff up. Responding to drivel like this is not a good use of my time. | ||
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That being said you can't just go cherrypicking statements and taking them out of context. And when I add the context back in you can't just call it bullshit just because you wish it was. In any case I think I'll go read up on Spaackle's filter since Zeph is having an aneurysm trying to convince people to vote him. | ||
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but instead you bailed. ??? | ||
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On January 14 2012 07:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: "Why does nobody love me? I thought I'd be able to fool town with my shitty plan and now I'm mad at Blazinghand. I sure hope nobody actually reads my posts and realizes they're all poorly thought out." I'm sorry man. I truly am. Hopefully next game you roll town or something. | ||
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On January 14 2012 07:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: lol kk, I will put in more analysis later today/tomorrow, but if this dismissive bullshit isn't enough to justify killing him, then I don't know what to tell you. I'm heading to the gym, you guys have your information, make your decision. BlazingHand is clearly scummy as shit. Dude your analysis was basically "well i'm not gonna include blazinghand's vote post in my analysis. Then i'm gonna claim he voted for no reason" then I add my vote post. then you say "yeah well that reason is shitty. yes it's not something a town player would ever do but I don't know why you voted him. weren't you 90% sure of him and 100% sure of me?" Yeah dude I don't even know what to say to that. look I was 100% sure of you then the guy was like "man you guys all suck" and all but claimed scum. You don't go and say something like that as town-- even if you know you're gonna die you try to be useful beforehand. I became convinced beyond any doubt, 110% sure, if you would of his guilt. Like, it's like you're shouting random meaningless garbage at me, and when I point it out as random meaningless garbage you get really mad. ._. | ||
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On January 14 2012 07:45 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I get it man, I really do. You can't exactly back down being part of two bad lynches in a row when your reasoning was shitty. But, don't worry. I am sure if we replayed this game you would do it all over again, since you know, it works toward your win condition. Dude, you gotta admit, erandorr deserved what he had coming to him, and risk wasn't captain mchelpful. On January 14 2012 07:46 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: You have an impeccable ability to piss away all my time. When I get back I will take care of it. I'd just like to say that it might do your credibility some good to follow through on this particular promise. | ||
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On January 14 2012 07:46 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Unlike you, I am not going to abandon someone I am sure of for some other random easy lynch. The best course is never the easiest, this is no exception. ;_; why are you so mean? I didn't say "go vote some random bro"... I just want your thoughts on literally anyone in this game who's not me. Really. Anyone. | ||
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On January 14 2012 09:43 layabout wrote: GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ARSES /unignore Blazinghand... i have ... a need for your skills There has been an influx of bullshit in the thread and i am struggling to keep track of it. This bullshit threatens to destroy reason, logic and towns chance of winning You seem to have an awful lot of free time on your hands, but you could put it to better use. A giant dick once told me that you study physics. And so i ask you this: Can you begin recording the Horseshit scores for the entire thread and calculating their corresponding Bullshit-based chance of flipping scum? We need to cut down on the bullshit. Help me Blazinghand! You are my only hope.. Are we gonna be dividing this up by posters or by pages or what | ||
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On January 14 2012 09:46 Blazinghand wrote: Are we gonna be dividing this up by posters or by pages or what PS. am I a head-asser? (since my vote is on RoL) | ||
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Layabout covers: Bluelightz Dirkszor Grackaroni HarbribngerOfDoom Jackal58 RebirthofLegend Blazinghand Covers: Layabout Refallen Syllogism Tyrran Spaackle Zeph | ||
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On January 14 2012 09:49 Grackaroni wrote: How much better would an angel lynch be over a demon lynch right now, because I am pretty confident that Spaackle is a demon and RoL could be either. An AoD lynch this early would be like game-winningly good. It'd eliminate the masked flips! Demons we want to lynch obviously but like. AoD is priority #0 (as in it comes even before priority 1 yeah i know good number eh think about it for a bit) | ||
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On January 14 2012 18:17 Tyrran wrote: Okay so it seems i was wrong about HoD. I'm going to unvote him . Unless someone counter claims which is extremely unlikely due to breadcrumbs. Anyone who thinks that breadcrumbs are a reasonable explanation or support for a claim needs to spend some more time thinking. A good scum player breadcrumbs every blue role during the start of the game, then points them out if he wants to claim. This should be obvious. The real question we should be asking is: Where did HoD breadcrumb his investigative results in the event of being shot by the acolyte? | ||
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I'm just wondering where he breadcrumbed his N2 investigative results, as any good DT would. The angels have a non-masked potential KP, and knowing that, he should have written his non-demon investigative results from N2 coded in a post. If he could point to that that would be great. | ||
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For the record: On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 3 Lynch. With 13 alive, 7 votes are required to lynch. Current votes: HarbingerOfDoom (3): RebirthOfLeGenD (2): Spaackle (1): Bluelightz (1): Jackal58 Blazinghand (1): RebirthOfLeGenD The Day 3 deadline is at January 15 2012 10:00 KST. (That's approximately 14:48:43 from now.) We got ~15 hours left gentlehombres and ladiemarms. By now you are all intimately familiar with my critiques of RoL (whether you wanted to be or not LOL) and his play this game. Good night. | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 3 Lynch. With 13 alive, 7 votes are required to lynch. Current votes: RebirthOfLeGenD (5): HarbingerOfDoom (3): Spaackle (1): Bluelightz (1): Jackal58 Blazinghand (0): The Day 3 deadline is at January 15 2012 10:00 KST. (That's approximately 3:20:28 from now.) 3 hours 20 minutes left is anyone around | ||
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Perhaps I have been a dick this game-- but RoL hasn't contributed. | ||
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If the real channeller is out there, I do not claim. If we don't lynch RoL we can call a shot for him and lynch him tomorrow if he doesn't jail who we say. | ||
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On January 15 2012 07:00 Grackaroni wrote: I'm looking through his filter, can you point me to where he claimed VT, that in itself would be more than enough reason to lynch. YOU'RE RIGHT HE CLAIMED VT WHEN HE MADE HIS RETARDED PLAN. lynch him. | ||
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On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Well that pretty much sums up my plan, all critiques are welcome but I think I covered pretty much all dynamics in the game that interact with it. So I claim townie. I have work in a little while but will more than happily defend my position in around 6-7 hours from this post, but if you can't glaring problems with it remember that as soon as the night phase ends this plan is over. The first day cycle is the only time where blue roles cannot be faked. | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 3 Lynch. With 13 alive, 7 votes are required to lynch. Current votes: RebirthOfLeGenD (5): HarbingerOfDoom (3): Spaackle (1): Bluelightz (1): Jackal58 Blazinghand (0): The Day 3 deadline is at January 15 2012 10:00 KST. (That's approximately 2:59:09 from now.) | ||
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On January 15 2012 07:09 syllogism wrote: If the channeler is alive (which he is), send HarbingerOfDoom into purgatory tonight I second this motion and move to have it sent to the chamber floor. | ||
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On January 15 2012 07:09 Zephirdd wrote: Actually, they may have not had time to cancel the conceal. Imagine if they had "RoL gets lynched and we enjoy the chaos"(or whatever the reason for concealing is) and just right before his lynch he goes "IM CHANNELER GUUUUYS" and then suddenly the concealer wasted a conceal. Whether RoL was the channeler or not, that was a good thing for town as the conceal was basically wasted. Oh, that's true. Bad, unlucky, whatever, it's good for is :D | ||
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On January 15 2012 08:24 Bluelightz wrote: Hmm, sorry I didn't vote I was asleep Anyway, I'm going to reevaluate the thread later once I get back from ChurchDon't worry BL your play has been so good an active this game I give you rain check | ||
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Perhaps I'm the wrong person to say this, but if you have too much noise you cloud out the signal, you see? I'd condense your post to your chief suspect and the other scum people you think are scum. | ||
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We've got 3 and a half hours left. | ||
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So here's xsksc's solitary post: On January 04 2012 23:24 xsksc wrote: Hi guys. First multi-factional game for me as well, not really sure how we should proceed strategy-wise. Lynching an angel day 1 would obviously be ideal, although getting a demon is definitely better than a townie. Yeah, and then he went on to be one of the only useful townies that actually read the game and used his brain. Syllo, if Palmar does decide to mess around on day one again, would it not be better to wait and see how he behaves later on (like in TLXVIII), rather than just lynching him? A meaningless post and a half-assed defense of Palmar. I can't read anything off this. At this point Spaackle comes in and misses the Erandorr lynch. He defends Palmar and attacks risk. He attacks RoL's plana t night then makes the following statements: On January 09 2012 05:51 Spaackle wrote: @Jackal Hypothetically, let's say I'm a complete noob and I don't know how to play this game. Explain to me: why is it obvious? Could you please give a little bit more reasoning, even if it is things that others have already pointed out? I don't like people calling themselves noobs. IT creates excuses and excuses shouldn't exist. On January 09 2012 11:22 Spaackle wrote: Well, now that we know that Palmar is scum, we should take a look at a post the he made earlier: I'll bet we find Palmar's scumbuddies in the list of the people that he declared as townies. This is dumb. This is like straight-up WIFOM. So here's where I don't like Spaackle. He says some stuff about RoL and then some more stuff then he's unvoting: On January 10 2012 13:02 Spaackle wrote: I'm with you on this one, BH. At first I thought that the RoL plan was merely just an ill-thought out plan, but after your and Mr Wiggles' arguments against it, now I see that the RoL plan isn't just bad, but that it seems to be intentionally anti-town. I want to see a defense from RoL, but until then: ##vote RebirthOfLegend So this is like, a bandwagon hop. Let's see where this goes: On January 11 2012 14:31 Spaackle wrote: So, after a bit more of BH and RoL duking it out, I've decided to Unvote RoL for now. RoL has spent a long time and a lot of effort defending it, and a scum Probably would have dropped it long ago. RoL is still pretty null to me, though. Give me a bit more time to finish catching up on the thread and reading some filter, and I'll have an analysis for both Tyrran and risk.nuke The pressure gets on, and Spaackle bails the hell out. Ok, maybe he thought RoL is null. but let's do more digging, ladies and gentlemen. Well at this point he's hanging out a little later so I pressure him: On January 13 2012 08:40 Blazinghand wrote: I got a good one for you Mr Spaacks. Check it. OK Wow, way to bail for no reason What do you think about RoL now? >.> Explain your flip-flopping, mr. flip-flopper. I ask him to explain his flip-flopping. He responds: On January 13 2012 08:50 Spaackle wrote: When I moved off of RoL, it was because the argument between you and him had gotten kind of silly and was filling up the thread. I looked at both risk and RoL, and risk looked like thebetter lynch. I would have voted him, but he was hammered before I could. This is inconsistent. I want to catch him red-handed, though, so I ask him to elaborate: On January 13 2012 08:54 Blazinghand wrote: So when you moved off RoL, you thought he was still a decent lynch, but risk was better? He responds with a sidestep / lie: On January 13 2012 09:01 Spaackle wrote: @BH I partially used my RoL vote to get him to come out in the open. I think he is a good lynch, and I did when I voted him, but risk was still better to me. On January 13 2012 09:04 Blazinghand wrote: You dodged my question. when you moved off RoL, did you think he was a decent lynch, but risk was better? Answer. More pressure from me, then: On January 13 2012 09:10 Spaackle wrote: I'm pretty sure I did answer your question, BH. I said that yes, when I moved off RoL I thought risk was the better lynch. Bam there's the lie. On January 13 2012 09:12 Blazinghand wrote: So when you moved off RoL, you though RoL was scum, but you were more sure about risk? Of course I confirm. On January 13 2012 09:15 Spaackle wrote: @ BH: yes. I point out his inconsistency: On January 13 2012 09:16 Blazinghand wrote: That's weird I thought he was pretty null to you Grack notices as well: On January 13 2012 09:16 Grackaroni wrote: Whoa, what I gathered from your filter was that you were no longer sure that RoL was scum and had a null read on him when you removed your vote. On January 13 2012 09:20 Spaackle wrote: Except that since then I've been pushing for his lynch. He looked a bit null to me at the moment, but I still suspected him as a scum. I just wanted to concentrate more on getting rid of risk at the moment. hmm waffles are so delicious On January 13 2012 09:23 Blazinghand wrote: Oh man Spaackle from January 13 you sound like you thought he was scum I wonder who can argue with you??? let me ask spaackle from January 11 huh thats weird I wonder which spaackle is right Then Spaackle bails the fuck out and doesn't respond. He comes back later to interact with the thread in a normal fashion but otherwise is basically bailing super hard. On January 14 2012 15:45 Spaackle wrote: EBWOP: expected because we ran into a few problems. All of this was completely outside of my control. Lynching me will be just as good for the town as was lynching Erandorr and risk. While I may not be as active as I could be, lynching me is still a mislynch. HoDs claim is interesting. Everyone should back their votes off him and focus on a much safer lynch, like RoL. However, leaving breadcrumbs like that is still something that a scum could do, and fall back on if it looks like he'd be lynched. But this is too much WIFOM for right now. Let's just play it safe and back off. What the dicks is this. This is not a defense. In any case, Spaackle lied and has been largely unhelpful. He's on my scumlist unless he starts being useful. Coming up next: My case on Bluelightz | ||
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Camt wait for the day post | ||
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On January 16 2012 10:42 Zephirdd wrote: Alright, proposal: Whenever I say something, take the complete opposite. That should do it. Um... nope?  | ||
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Also where did layabout soft claim being corrupted? | ||
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"If RoL was an angel, which angel was he?" And "Was RoL an angel?" Don't worry about my other posts just respond to this one | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Let me tell you my reasoning on this subject. After the lynch I did some research and thought RoL was the channeller. and here's why. On January 15 2012 00:54 Zona wrote: The Q&A post has been updated with new questions and their answers On December 28 2011 15:41 Zona wrote: Can the town channeller choose not to act, and can he choose to perform his action on himself? Yes, the town channeler can choose not to act, and no, the channeler cannot target him/herself. If Wiggles was long dead, why did on January 15 at 00:54 KST someone ask about the channeler's self-protecting ability? No, that was RoL, deciding if he should claim or not. He is aggressively going after me, then here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=41447¤tpage=5 in his filter, you see him change tack, just after the new Q+A is added. he no longer attacks me and rather comfortably decides to claim. But then I realized he could have as easily been an angel who KNEW the channeller was dead from the masked flip, but then why would he ask that question? Well think about it this way: it doesn't even matter. an Angel false claiming channeller doesn't get anything but a little breathing room and will be lynched the next day anyways right? it only makes sense for the AoD to do this imo since it gives them another masked flip. So what does this evidence tell you Refallen? why, it tells you that he could have easily been the real chaneller. WHY DID HE ASK THE QUESTION? Re: demons twisting layabout: they could identify a CT crying for help as easily as a sage could right? so I see a couple possibilities here: 1) HoD is a demon and layabout said some random shit that could be interpreted that way 2) layabout is a demon and got his ass covered and HoD is legit 3) HoD is legit and demons be trolling us I'd say I feel most strongly that 3 is the case | ||
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I'm serious. Come at me, bros. If you're gonna vote me, don't hammer please. I want to see what you all have to say. | ||
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LAYABOUT WHERE ON GODS GREEN EARTH ARE YOU | ||
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My vote will move around a bit if I see fit to do so, but I will not move my vote without announcing it in bold in this thread, mr. Refallen captian voteswitch scumhammer lurklynch | ||
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Bluelights opens the game with some meaningless statements that nobody cares about. Things really start when people start being aggressive at him. So, as we remember, Bluelightz starts off with some plane riding etc and some unbelievably poor defense: + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2012 18:37 Bluelightz wrote: I wont be available till around [unparsable timestamp format] On January 04 2012 18:38 Bluelightz wrote: EBWOP: I wont be available till around 1:00 AM GMT+7 On January 04 2012 18:43 Dirkzor wrote: Thats an easy way to lurk... O_o On January 04 2012 18:46 Bluelightz wrote: But but but I can't acces internet on a plane! On January 04 2012 18:48 Dirkzor wrote: But how can i read is any other way than a horrible excuse to not post until later. Why not write "I'm flying Home/away/whatever with no internet during the trip. Should be able to post when i Arrive at [Time]" because the other way everyone can just post a timestamp... Then his defense: On January 05 2012 04:52 Bluelightz wrote: Okay, im back guys :p Im gonna start responding to cases and make cases myself. Anyway, first I clearly said that I wouldn't be available till about now(Flight was delayed ;|) Anyway, my thoughts on lynching lurkers. It ends up lynching a townie usually On January 05 2012 04:54 Bluelightz wrote: Im about to sleep >.> but anyway i got like half an hour so do what you will! On January 05 2012 05:08 Bluelightz wrote: First, I don't like the idea of lynching lurkers because more or less it justs waste's us a townie and Next, I think the people that are not posting should be chec Lastly, I don't have a scummy read on anyone yet. On January 05 2012 05:15 Bluelightz wrote: it was supposed to be "checked"because like me in student lurkers turned out to be scum >.> On January 05 2012 05:15 Bluelightz wrote: im gonna sleep now cya in a few/lots of hours On January 05 2012 14:27 Bluelightz wrote: Okay, ill just give my thoughts on LA-Lurkers First, I don't think that lynching lurkers benefit town in any way. Usually it results in a townie lynched(BByte lynch in student mafia as an example) Also, Here's the list of people I want posting xsksc Cwave risk.nuke Errandor That is all. I'd characterize this posting overall as "overwhelmingly bad"... and then we get to the stuff that causes people to get all up in his cake: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 20:45 Bluelightz wrote: Okay my thoughts on the lynch I think we should avoid lynching a lurker unless we have no other option left. Next, my reads on people Blazinghand, Town: From the way he is posting I assume that he is Town Cwave, Null: He only has 2 posts so I can't determine his allignment yet. Dirkzor, Null: When comparing his post's from Mr.Wiggles Mini and Here he acts differently, In Mr.Wiggles Mini he analyzes other people's post, etc that is town Dirk. But here, he discusses Strategy,etc but this is a new/ diffrent setup On January 05 2012 20:47 Bluelightz wrote: Derp I posted it before I finished it, I'll finish it in another post On January 05 2012 21:36 Bluelightz wrote: Okay here's the continuation of my reads Errandor, Null: Lurking cannot determine alignment Grackaroni, Null: His posting contains his case against me and discussing about the lurkers in this game. HarbingerOfDoom, Null/Leaning Town: His posting contains discussion of strategy for town, Discussing LA-Lurkers Jackal58, Null: 2 posts since the start of the game cannot determine alignment. Layabout, Leaning Town: When I compare when Layabout was town in Student and if he is town here his posting style is much the same being aggressive and starting discussion Mr.Wiggles, Leaning Town: His posts while not alot has very good content. Palmar, Leaning Town/Null: His post's generate discussion and he starts discussion himself. RebirthOfLeGenD, Null: Lurking cannot determine alignment. Refallen, Null: His posts contain discussion about the lurkers,etc risk.nuke, Null: Has not posted alot syllogism, Leaning Town/Null: His post's generate discussion and he also shares his reads with others. Tyrran, Null: While lurking a little I can't determine his alignment xsksc, Null: Needs to start posting Zepphird, Null: His post's discuss about LA-Lurkers and strategy Okay I'm done if you have a question about my reads go for it !Now, I have many town reads because this is day 1 and also people haven't posted much(including me) So, here it is! So... well, Palmar lays on the pressure. ._. in any case here's BL's response: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 21:46 Bluelightz wrote: Right now, since we have no real option I would like to lynch a lurker. On January 05 2012 21:59 Bluelightz wrote: At this point, I would wait if xsk starts posting, risk.nuke too. But if they don't i'm all ears for lynching them I would lynch RoL right now because he hasn't posted anything when I searched for RoL post's in the thread I haven't found any post's by him So that's some serious hedging by Bluelightz with some faulty logic. Is he terrible? Is he scum? The world may never know. After this, Palmar runs his whole "dayvig" circus and we know how that turned out. And you knwo what Bluelightz has done since then? almost nothing useful. all excuses. What's the deal, Bluelightz? A sampler of Bluelightz classic posting: On January 11 2012 23:53 Bluelightz wrote: ._. sorry risk On January 12 2012 00:01 Bluelightz wrote: Im gonna sleep now guys On January 12 2012 19:32 Bluelightz wrote: I'm back now! On January 13 2012 00:42 Bluelightz wrote: I'm gonna sleep now guys gonna make a case on someone when i get back from school On January 13 2012 21:27 Bluelightz wrote: I'm back guys but I'm leaving in a sec. Anyway, I'm gonna post a analysis of some post's by Grack and Spaackle This was 48 hours of bluelightz posts. RIGHT THERE> how is this guy not scum? nobody knows????? | ||
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On January 16 2012 19:11 Refallen wrote: You're annoying but you're not scum. But why are you voting for layabout when you said, and I think I can agree with that argument, that demons are just trolling us with the twist? Also, I am completely opposed to the theory that RoL is the channeler because of how he claimed townie in his plan of his. Can you imagine if town actually adopted the plan, then all of a sudden he's like "oh sorry guys, I'm actually a blue, carry on". Whole plan would fall through definitely. There is no townie justification for such a blatant lie. Much more likely that wiggles was channeler. Serious mode: Is layabout a demon or an angel? | ||
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On January 16 2012 19:12 Blazinghand wrote: Serious mode: Is layabout a demon or an angel? That is, in your opinion. This is pretty important. | ||
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Why is HoD alive right now? Spaackle was obvious the demon hunter kill. Why didn't the acolyte kill HoD? | ||
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no he cannot Town Sage (x1) Your study of the powers of light has enabled you to sense and counter demonic power. Each night, you may target a player to illuminate. You will receive "Demon" or "Not Demon" as a result, and your target will also be cleansed of corruption. You are immune to corruption. You win with the town. no "dark powers" | ||
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On January 16 2012 19:32 Dirkzor wrote: Either because HoD is not a sage, and the angels know. Or because the acolyte is dead (RoL?) and they can't Ok yes these are our two options. So I'm thinking the acolyte is dead. I'm thinking RoL was the acolyte. This is my theory. waht do you two think? | ||
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On January 16 2012 19:33 Refallen wrote: Where'd you get the idea that they thought syllo was the seer? I'm pretty sure syllo was vanilla town tbh. AoD thought syllo was seer-- he's dead. he basically soft-claimed blue trying to get unroleblocked "I want to die" <-- remember that quote? | ||
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On January 16 2012 19:33 Dirkzor wrote: Or maybe the angels are as stupid as me and thought Acolyte could kill sage. I have assumed the entire game that acolyte could kill every blue town had. angels will spend a long time reading on what exactly their powers do, trust me-- no scum wants to lose because they didn't realize something about their own role PMs. | ||
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On January 16 2012 06:02 Zephirdd wrote: OH ARE YOU? Wanna know what happens when the DH shots someone and HoD was jailed? We lost a DT check for nothing because you made excuses for reasons for HoD's claim to be false. Demons will try to create a case over HoD as he is the one town they fear, and Angels will try to protect him because he is useful and any lynch that is not an Angel is excellent for them because that's the only way to kill Angels. And ta-daa, you got the Angel connection you needed from me. But hey that doesn't matters, because tonight you will get your "Not Angel" read, syllo-seer, but that probably doesn't matter as well because if Angels have half a brain they realized you are the Seer last night from your "I DUN WANNA DIE" thing. BAM Acolyte on you, AoD on someone else, DH on Spaackle(hopefully) and suddenly Angels won the game because town will look at this and lynch me and HoD. | ||
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On January 16 2012 19:38 Dirkzor wrote: What... how can it ever be 50% that RoL was acolyte?!?! He might have donw something completely different then what we are speculating here and have missed. There is 50% chance that RoL was the channeler and 50% chance that is was Wiggles. Oh the reasoning is "assuming RoL is an angel, and knowing he's not the AoD based on the night kill, there's a 50% chance he was the acolyte, 50% chance he was the observer" | ||
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I was just wondering what you were thinking about that in terms of "optimal angel play". I'm wondering if RoL was the acolyte or the observer (as I am highly, highly sure he was an angel based on his play). | ||
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Some context: a list of posters who were definitely around between the time RoL claimed Channeller and the time RoL was lynched, and flipped "???" Blazinghand Layabout Syllogism Dirkzor Zephirdd Grackaroni Spaackle Now normally you'd say "ok none of these guys are the demonic concealer" Well, why would they not be the demonic concealer? The obvious answer? The demons wouldn't actually want to conceal this lynch after RoL claimed Channeller, since it would be super clear after the following night whether or not the channeller was alive. If he died claiming VT (which is what was thought by almost everyone outside that list of people above), that would cause substantially more confusion. So the Demonic Concealer is not among that group, or else he'd decide not to conceal the lynch and save it for a better day. Unless, of course, there was another purpose to the concealment. The demons wanted to protect the Corrupted Townie, who is probably their last best hope for winning this game. In that case, we're talking about me. I am the Corrupted Townie. I was corrupted N2. The demons likely concealed the lynch because they thought RoL was a VT (not believing my case) and wanted me to live following the lynch. I believe layabout is a demon who specifically soft-claimed CT then got twisted to try to keep their CT from getting illuminated, as I several times during the course of my rambunctious D3 breadcrumbed things about wanting people to enlighten me, brighten my day, etc. My unusually rambunctious and aggressive play was to try to get a wagon going on me and see who the demons were. I used Sense on __________ because______________. I got a result of "not dark" and am not sure if I should reveal who I Sensed last night. Dear god I hope the acolyte is dead. | ||
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On January 16 2012 19:59 Refallen wrote: HoD will illuminate you, so you should be safe tonight. And sorry, watching GSL, will be back soon. Rules: The Transport and Banish actions are resolved simultaneously before all other actions, and can consequently cause the other actions to fail. All other actions except corruption and the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action are then resolved. The corruption action is then resolved (even if the demon who is performing the action was killed the same night.) Finally, the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action is resolved (even if the sage was killed the same night.) The cleansing doesn't happen until after killing actions. If the acolyte is alive, I'm dead. I've thought this through rather carefully. also dude Oz vs Curious highlights are lame come back here and talk | ||
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On January 16 2012 20:17 Refallen wrote: It depends on who the player is. Obviously if he's already scummy and you see him as not dark you should probably come out so we can lynch an angel today. Then again, we have 4 people here who are either VT/Sage, while only 2 angels left, so the odds don't really favor us here. It depends if you're sure the player is scummy enough to be an angel and also to be lynched today. I am currently offering "no comment" on whether or not the player is scummy. I will wait to hear other people's opinions on this issue. I hope you don't mind. | ||
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this means out of the 10 remaining we've got: AoD Acolyte/Observer Concealer (no power) Twister Demon Hunter (dead if he was syllo, which case this is a VT) Seer (dead if he was syllo, in which case this is a VT) Sage (HoD) VT VT CT -- this is me. | ||
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This means that the town cannot win a vote today unless we have the help of one of the scum teams. I have some nominal control over my vote until the demons mess with it, meaning that assuming they're afraid of WIFOM or something, they probably won't actually manipulate my vote since they're afraid of giving something away. Their goal is to kill an angel or the DH today and get up to 4 votes out of 8 or 7 tomorrow, controlling the town vote. ;_; i'm unclear on where to go here guys | ||
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In fact, the fact that layabout was twisted last night (and therefore not me) makes me even more sure that the acolyte is dead. | ||
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In other words, the demons could win as early as tomorrow if we do it wrong. Alternatively, if we lynch one demon and have the demon hunter kill the other, the angels will kill a townie and we'll enter day 5 with 7 players, 2 of whom are angels, 5 of whom are town. if the acolyte is dead, it's a 1-kp single faction mafia game from that point out. So, the real question is: Is the acolyte alive? because if the acolyte is alive, we could enter day 5 with 6 players, 2 of whom are angels, 4 of whom are town and may be vulnerable to corrupted kills or dark power kills from the acolyte. I'm thinking the acolyte is dead because of the twisting yesterday. If the acolyte is alive, town is in serious trouble with the "let's try to get rid of the demons" plan. If the acolyte is dead, killing the AoD and puts us in a strong position, but only if the DH can shoot a demon. Does this sound right? | ||
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2 corrupted townies, 1 demon, 1 angel, 3 townies even in that scenario, we're forced to team up with the angel to try to take out the very strong demon faction. | ||
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1 live angel (AoD or the observer with the gun that can't kill the demonhunter), 1 corrupted townie from night 4, 1 live demon, possibly the wister, and 4 live townies. This will put us in a situation where there are 2 demon votes, 1 angel vote, 4 town votes, and 1 angel KP. However, it will require the cooperation of the last angel and the demon hunter to "split fire" so that we kill at least one demon vote between layabout and me, keeping the twister from using it to block a shot. | ||
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On January 16 2012 21:12 Bluelightz wrote: @BH what do you think of mass roleclaiming? It depends what roles are left in the game. We've had a couple masked flips, and I don't like the idea of some scum who saw the inside of a masked flip taking the town wherever they want, especially if the acolyte is alive. It might be more facile just to directly ask a faction for help in weakening another faction. | ||
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On January 16 2012 21:14 Blazinghand wrote: It depends what roles are left in the game. We've had a couple masked flips, and I don't like the idea of some scum who saw the inside of a masked flip taking the town wherever they want, especially if the acolyte is alive. It might be more facile just to directly ask a faction for help in weakening another faction. On the other hand, we/someone shoudl sit down and work out how a mass roleclaim would work out with all possibilities of masked flips being X, Y, and Z, and also what possibilites there are for scum faleclaiming during this in different ways. I doubt there's a safe way to mass roleclaim at this point. | ||
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alright gentlemen I think we should look for a way to lynch an angel and shoot a demon / demon vote. nobody claim unnecessarily. | ||
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we need to lynch an angel and you guys have a better idea of who that is than the town does. You guys have a set of information that I do not. 1) was layabout actually twisted? (is HoD's claim real) 2) what was RoL's flip? 3) your own identities. Please do the following 1) if you are willing to talk about whether or not layabout was twisted, move my vote onto myself. 2) if you are willing to reveal the identify of RoL's flip, move my vote onto grackaroni then onto myself. 3) otherwise, please move my vote onto your best read for angels. If that read happens to be layabout (where my vote is currently parked), indicate that this is the case by moving my vote onto myself then back onto layabout. 4) If you would like me to introduce additional options for communication via vote movement, move my vote onto jackal then onto myself. Thank you for your help. let's lynch an angel today. | ||
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Please do the following 1) if you are willing to talk about whether or not layabout was twisted, move my vote onto ZEPHIRDD. 2) if you are willing to reveal the identify of RoL's flip, move my vote onto grackaroni then onto ZEPHIRDD. 3) otherwise, please move my vote onto your best read for angels. If that read happens to be layabout (where my vote is currently parked), indicate that this is the case by moving my vote onto ZEPHIRDD then back onto layabout. 4) If you would like me to introduce additional options for communication via vote movement, move my vote onto jackal then onto ZEPHIRDD. | ||
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Please do the following 1) if you are willing to talk about whether or not layabout was twisted, move my vote onto REFALLEN then ZEPHIRDD. 2) if you are willing to reveal the identify of RoL's flip, move my vote onto GRACKARONI then onto ZEPHIRDD. 3) otherwise, please move my vote onto your best read for angels. If that read happens to be LAYABOUT (where my vote is currently parked), indicate that this is the case by moving my vote onto ZEPHIRDD then back onto LAYABOUT. 4) If you would like me to introduce additional options for communication via vote movement, move my vote onto JACKAL then onto ZEPHIRDD.[/QUOTE] | ||
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I honestly think this is not a bad idea at all. | ||
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On January 17 2012 07:04 Blazinghand wrote: Final refined demon communication code: Please do the following 1) if you are willing to talk about whether or not layabout was twisted, move my vote onto REFALLEN then ZEPHIRDD. 2) if you are willing to reveal the identify of RoL's flip, move my vote onto GRACKARONI then onto ZEPHIRDD. 3) otherwise, please move my vote onto your best read for angels. If that read happens to be LAYABOUT (where my vote is currently parked), indicate that this is the case by moving my vote onto ZEPHIRDD then back onto LAYABOUT. 4) If you would like me to introduce additional options for communication via vote movement, move my vote onto JACKAL then onto ZEPHIRDD. Just in case the demon team missed it last page | ||
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If you don't think this can help us find angels, why? | ||
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Also, if I were a demon false-claiming CT wouldn't I just get killed by the demon-hunter? It sounds really dumb to me. After all, the demon hunter is killing me tonight for sure to get rid of a demon vote after we lynch an angel. If I were an angel false-claiming CT, the demons would just use their real CT plus people's arguments to bury me. and if I were town, why would I false-claim CT? | ||
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unless an angel dies today, angels win like 90%. both the demon faction and town want to lynch an angel. All the demons have to do is put my vote on an angel and we'll know what's up. then, the demon hunter can kill a demon or myself, or the demon hunter and the last angel can split fire, one of them killing me and one killing a demon, or something. The point is, this is the best chance for town, and there's no reason for demons not to help. | ||
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look, we need to lynch an angel today or else angels win. Demons OR town both need this to happen. I see now reason why we wouldn't work together to do this. The fact of the matter is, the goals of Demon and town are the same during this specific moment in time. They will diverge as soon as the night begins since we'll need to start killing demons and CTs, but the point is, unless we kill an angel, they're probably gonna win. do you deny this? | ||
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don't pay attention to grackaroni's code, stick to mine. | ||
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On January 17 2012 10:31 Refallen wrote: We need to decide on a lynxh target. I do not mind lynching either dirkzor/Tyrran/layabout here We can't afford to not lynch an angel today. I think layabout is a demon since he was twisted... | ||
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On January 17 2012 10:35 Grackaroni wrote: It seems like we've came to an agreement that we want to lynch an angel though. I don't see Layabout flipping Angel. Bluelightz would be a much preferable lynch over layabout. This much should be obvious. We need to lynch an angel, even if there are only two. If we do not lynch an angel today, I don't see how town can win. Why don't you see Layabout flipping Angel? | ||
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On January 17 2012 15:15 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Maybe because he wants the sage dead really badly (and remember, the angels are certain that I am actually the sage given the lack of counter-claim), and because he was twisted by the demons last night? I agree. I was just trying to get grack to talk. What do you think about lynching grack | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: The Day 4 deadline is at 2012-01-18 10:00:00 KST. (That's approximately 16:45:04 from now.) | ||
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So, let's talk about Hope If RoL isn't an angel, we have 3 angels alive. If we lynch an angel today, and it's the AoD or acolyte, that'll bring us down to 2 angels. the DH will shoot me and the angels will kill a town player, but maybe a demon too. in a best case for town scenario they kill a demon. That lets us enter day 5 with 1 CT, 1 Demon, 2 Angels, 3 town-affiliated people. If we lynch another angel, and the angel kills a town player, and the demon hunter kills, lets say, the last demon we can enter day 6 with 1 angel and 2 town, and it's lylo. It's not over for town even if there are 3 angels alive right now-- we just need to constantly lynch angels and pick off a demon or two over the next couple of nights. And even if it were over for town, our goal is still to lynch every angel-- that's our minor victory condition if we can't win outright. I haven't liked bluelightz all game. If I had control of my vote it would be on him. I dont' know why demons are leaving my vote on layabout. I think they may be trying to exonerate him (a demon) by parking it there. | ||
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If it somehow turns out he was town, especially if he was blue, I'm gonna have some serious thinking / introspection to do after this game ._. | ||
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On January 18 2012 02:54 layabout wrote: of the total votes its likely that 2-6 of them are scum controlled (most likely = 2 demon 3 angel 1 ct or 2 demon 2 angel 1ct) 2-6 of them? How on earth is it possible that only 2 votes are scum controlled? Please enlighten | ||
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On January 18 2012 05:48 Dirkzor wrote: BH, since they moved your vote... doesnt that mean that the demons answered you "Move my vote"-code (rimes!) shinanigans? um, no... they moved my vote before i suggested the code. otherwise, I wouldn't have had to make a complicated code regarding "how to indicate you want to lynch layabout", instead i'd just use my control of my vote to ##unvote and make things simpler. I am currently not in control of my vote. | ||
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On January 18 2012 06:00 Zephirdd wrote: They moved the vote to Refallen and back to layabout. From his codes, that means nothing. Actually I was the one who made that move-- I voted refallen, then voted layabout. Then, the demons made me unvote, then revote refallen. Then, I suggested the voting code. since then, my vote has not moved. | ||
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On January 18 2012 06:02 Blazinghand wrote: Actually I was the one who made that move-- I voted refallen, then voted layabout. Then, the demons made me unvote, then revote refallen. Then, I suggested the voting code. since then, my vote has not moved. EBWOP: Actually I was the one who made that move-- I voted refallen, then voted layabout. Then, the demons made me unvote, then revote LAYABOUT. Then, I suggested the voting code. since then, my vote has not moved | ||
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On January 18 2012 06:04 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Voting Refallen for now :-/ I have a bad feeling about this :-/ if you don'[t think he's an aangel, don't vote for him. if you do, vote for him. don't pussyfoot around the issue. | ||
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On January 18 2012 06:09 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: A no-lynch gives us a 0% chance of lynching scum. Angels we can ONLY kill via lynching. I like >0% more than 0%. Instead plz convince ppl of your best read . That way we can win? | ||
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. Help a brotha out | ||
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On January 18 2012 07:09 Zephirdd wrote: Angels. Demons would benefit from Sage, DH or Angel lynch, but a no-lynch leave their voting power smaller while leaving Angels untouched, opening space for the (possible) Sage to find a Demon, the DH to snipe a Demon and the Angels to be Angels. As it stands, what the demons want most is probably an angel lynch unless they know the acolyte is dead and they think the demon hunter won't get them. If we no-lynch, though, the demons are in deep crap since the lynch failed to mitigate the angel faction's kps in any way (and you can only kill angels via lynch) and the demonhunter is alive also. The only people who benefit from a no-lynch are angels-- they can only b e killed via lynch. | ||
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On January 18 2012 07:16 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Holy fuck, unvoting to avoid corrupted town insta-hammer. Goddammit, be careful man. demons want to lynch an angel today right? unless you think refallen is the demon hunter, don't worry about ct quickhammer. in fact, think of the hammer as a seal of approval that we're not inadvertently lynching a demon and that their faction agrees with us :D | ||
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I'm constantly here from now to vote deadline. I wish I had a vote I could use to help out ;_; | ||
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I am comfortable lynching him or bluelightz. | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 4 Lynch. With 10 alive, 6 votes are required to lynch. Current votes: Refallen (4): Jackal58 (2): Bluelightz, Blazinghand layabout (0): HarbingerOfDoom (0): The Day 4 deadline is at 2012-01-18 10:00:00 KST. (That's approximately 1:39:47 from now.) Guys, I've been moved onto Jackal58. | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 4 Lynch. With 10 alive, 6 votes are required to lynch. Current votes: Jackal58 (3): Bluelightz, Blazinghand, Zephirdd Refallen (3): Bluelightz (1): Jackal58 layabout (0): HarbingerOfDoom (0): The Day 4 deadline is at 2012-01-18 10:00:00 KST. (That's approximately 1:27:37 from now.) this is looking a bit better. now demons can't easily hammer refallen. ok guys do we really think jack is an angel? if we're sure the demons are smart, we can wagon this | ||
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On January 18 2012 08:33 Refallen wrote: Christ. I'm posting all this from my phone on the way to school so I'm sorry I can't offer a detailed defence. God I hate how I don't live in the US/UK and I don't have to rush through deadlines every time. you claimed DH, unless someone counter-claims you, you should be OK as far as defense goes. It's just kinda dangerous to do that at 4 votes since the demons may ahve responded by hammering you with me | ||
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On January 18 2012 08:33 Grackaroni wrote: Did the demons put you're vote there? read the goddamn thread, christ | ||
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no, the demons didn't put my vote there, but it's mid january so my votes are flying south for the season and stopping by jackal to rest liuke what the hell kind of question is that. dude, i don't have control of my vote, i'm the corrupted town. | ||
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Angels Demon Hunter Sage since nobody has counter-claimed refallen, he is the demon hunter. demons know this. this means that they think jackal is an angel. they don't want to waste the lynch on a VT, they need to get rid of an anti-demon KP tonight. therefore, they think jackal is an angel. let's bury jackal. | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 4 Lynch. With 10 alive, 6 votes are required to lynch. Current votes: Jackal58 (4): Bluelightz, Blazinghand, Zephirdd, Grackaroni Refallen (3): Bluelightz (1): Jackal58 layabout (0): HarbingerOfDoom (0): The Day 4 deadline is at 2012-01-18 10:00:00 KST. (That's approximately 1:18:28 from now.) | ||
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Plus, the sooner we hammer, the sooner the night falls, and i'm almost certainly dead tonight ;_; I hope I was able to help in this last day as town. | ||
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We need two votes to hammer. People who aren't on Jackal currently, but have voted: Jackal, Dirk, layabout, Tyrran Granted, we don't want to unnecessarily hammer early, but that deadline is looking, gentlemen. Starting 1 hour before the deadline I will be extremely pleased at any hammering just because a no-lynch today is so deadly. | ||
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On January 18 2012 08:58 Refallen wrote: Ugh. I really want to lynch dirk/Tyrran but class is starting... Meh. Don't have a choice it feels like, since I'll be in class till deadline. Though I feel he's so strongly town omfg. Please, let's switch to Tyrran. I'll leave my vote on him, you all can still hammer jackal without me if you really want but I strongly want to vote for Tyrran. ##vote tyrran YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. what if jackal is innocent and so won't self-hammer, and there are 3 angels alive, and they're layabout, dirkzor, and tyrran, and are happy with a no-lynch? vote jackal. cmon man. CMON. | ||
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I hope Dirk comes back. | ||
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On January 18 2012 09:30 Zephirdd wrote: At least we'll know that his plane will be fine lol Is he a pilot? >.> | ||
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On January 18 2012 09:31 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Was hoping the demons might still offer another lynch...and thereby tell us another non-demon. But I am voting now. Excellent. Just one more vote to hammer. If you're a demon or a town-affiliated player (and of the 5 not voting for jackal, there's definitely someone out there), why in hades would you not be voting for Jackal right now? Don't no-lynch, guys. | ||
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On December 28 2011 15:42 ZBot wrote: Vote count for the Day 4 Lynch. With 10 alive, 6 votes are required to lynch. Current votes: Jackal58 (5): Bluelightz, Blazinghand, Zephirdd, Grackaroni, HarbingerOfDoom Refallen (3): Tyrran (1): Refallen Bluelightz (1): Jackal58 layabout (0): HarbingerOfDoom (0): The Day 4 deadline is at 2012-01-18 10:00:00 KST. (That's approximately 0:26:45 from now.) one more! | ||
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we kinda need to kill an angel today. we really need to kill an angel today. and let me tell you what a no-lynch does: not kill angels | ||
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On the other hand if you are an angel player you are a genius because Refallen threw away his vote because of you. | ||
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Refallen threw his vote away for no reason, then decided to leave the thread and not check back. Jackal won't hammer himself, of course. layabout and tyrran are MIA | ||
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what are you two doing | ||
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There are still 2 demons, I'm a corrupted townie, and there may be another corrupted townie happening tonight. Refallen, aim wisely. I suspect layabout and bluelightz are the demons, and I feel that tyrran is our remaining angel. If you shoot a demon tonight, I think we'll be able to badass our way back into a town victory. If you miss, and no demons die, it's all over (unless the AoD kills one). | ||
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On January 18 2012 10:24 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: The demons must lynch me, the demon hunter, and any remaining angels to win. As long as the angels don't get stabby toward me or Refallen, they are at least 3 days away from a victory. Ah, good point. Even if they control the vote, it'll still only be one lynch per day-- plenty of time to wipe them out, assuming we're reasonably accurate about it. | ||
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That way they have lots of WIFOM to wade through. | ||
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On January 18 2012 10:36 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: I was already planning to either flip a coin, or to use something online to RNG 2 or 3 options :-P Perfect > | ||
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On January 18 2012 10:42 Grackaroni wrote: @Refallen. You may have to shoot Blazinghand tonight. it promises that Demons will not control the lynch and if they do then they can just kill you and will win the game. If you aren't confident on a demon read then shoot him. oh definitely. primary DH goal is to deny a demon vote-- an added bonus would be killing an actual demon. | ||
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On January 18 2012 14:32 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: @Refallen Just make you you claim your shot before the day post. That way if angels decide to kill you and you happen to hit an angel instead of a demon, we'll know that person is an angel. (No purgatory means surviving demon hunter shot = angel) that's actually really good. yeah, just before the day post. | ||
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On January 18 2012 14:47 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Damn twist ability. I want to save you :-( flip coins, as mentioned. | ||
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Refallen is gonna shoot a demon, or, if he's not sure of his read, he'll shoot me to mitigate demon votes. The AoD will kill someone. HoD is either cleansing me or looking for demons or denying someone from being corrupted (using RNG or coin to mitigate demon guesses). I'll sense someone. and everything will be different in the morning. | ||
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I say this because, after reading your most recent post, I have literally no idea what it means or what it says about your, or even what you're saying. Perhaps after the game I shall gain insight into your meta. Sorry if I've been unfairly thinking you're scummy scum scum scum all game. | ||
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LSB's newbie guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=180405 Incog's general guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=301748 | ||
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I sensed DARK on Tyrran Tyrran is the last Demon. | ||
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I have control of my vote, I think, until he controls it. CAN WE HAMMER HIM BEFORE HE COMES BACK AND MOVES MY VOTE? ##Vote: Tyrran | ||
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On January 19 2012 10:32 Blazinghand wrote: There should be 1-2 CTs total. 1 from my night (me), and 1 from last night. it's possible the last night one was insta-illuminated though right or the one from last night being sage or an angel. | ||
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Here's my list of claims I've seen so far: Blazinghand - Claimed VT - CT various posts Bluelightz - No Claim (besides "Town"). Has not posted since the start of Day 5. Waiting for his CT / not CT claim. On January 18 2012 18:59 Bluelightz wrote: I am town, I just suck at it Dirkzor - no claim. Has not posted since the start of Day 5. Waiting for his CT / not CT claim. Grackaroni - HoD says he's not a Demon, I say he's not Dark. Claimed "Not Corrupted" On January 19 2012 10:34 Grackaroni wrote: I wasn't corrupted either. HarbingerOfDoom - Claimed Sage, and as such unable to be corrupted. On January 19 2012 10:32 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: I can't be corrupted due to being the sage and all. Refallen - Claimed DH, claimed Not Corrupted Called shot last night on Layabout N4. On January 19 2012 12:01 Refallen wrote: I wasn't corrupted. Zephirdd[ - Claimed Not Corrupted On January 19 2012 10:31 Zephirdd wrote: Actually, people should claim if they were corrupt or not. I wasn't. I want to wait to hear what Bluelights and Dirkzor have to say about their own corruption statuses before considering a night skip. | ||
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Refallen for calling his Demon Hunter shots Blazinghand (Myself) for various things I've done as Corrupted Town, including having my vote moved to Jackal, and sensing Tyrran and him flipping scum. "confirmed" town: HoD for claiming and not being counter-claimed, and the likely identity of the masked flips confirmable as town: Bluelightz if I sense him tonight and don't wake up dead. that leaves us with Zeph, Dirk, and Grack as the unconfirmed town. We can assume the angel will shoot into the confirmed townies, likely hitting me and Refallen first. It is currently N5. Refallen or I will be dead at the start of D6. If Refallen shoots: N5: Refallen shoots an unconfirmed and hits a town, I get killed by the angel to prevent confirmation of bluelightz [5 players left] D6: we lynch an unconfirmed and he's town. [4 players left] N6: With 4 players left and the angel killing one of them, Refallen has to shoot the angel or we lose. With Refallen shooting, we get 3 bites at the apple, 2 from Refallen shooting and 1 from a lynch. If Refallen calls his shots, even on N6 if he hits the angel and the angel kills him, we'll have 2 town players left for the D7 lynch to win. If Refallen doesn't shoot: N5: I get killed by the angel to prevent confirmation of Bluelightz [6 players left] D6: we lynch an unconfirmed and he's town [5 players left] N6: AoD kills someone [4 players left] D7: 4 players, we have to lynch properly or lose. Without refallen shooting, we get 2 bites at the apple, both from lynching. If Refallen only shoots tonight, and stops shooting: N5: Refallen shoots an unconfirmed and hits a town, I get killed by the angel to prevent confirmation of bluelightz [5 players left] D6: we lynched an unconfirmed and he's town [4 players left] N6: AoD kills one of us [3 players left] D7: 3 players, we have to lynch the angel or lose. If Refallen only shoots tonight, we get 3 bites at the apple, two from lynching and one from shooting. Refallen, please shoot at whoever you think the angel is tonight, and call your shot so that if the angel targets you tonight, we know who the angel is. This will give the town an extra kill this game. HoD, there's something better you can do with your power than a called illumination on me tonight. | ||
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On January 20 2012 03:00 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to flip a coin. If it is heads, I illuminate Blazinghand, if it is tails I illuminate Bluelightz. I will not call my shot. After night ends, Bluelightz will say whether or not he was cleansed. If his call doesn't match up with my action, we lynch him. This means if he is an angel, this plan has a 50% chance to reveal him as scum, if he is actually corrupted town, he will call it correctly every time. Sound good? I like this plan. | ||
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On January 20 2012 07:55 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: It's ok. With so few people listening to my case combined with the craziness Tyrran was spewing I backed off my read on him too :-( You're stabbing Dirkzor, yes? And everyone is ending night early I hope? I'm impatient. I have voted to end night early. Everyone with a night action has to PM Zona for this to happen. | ||
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On January 20 2012 10:22 Zephirdd wrote: I'm pretty sure that's Bluelightz' fault. He wasn't awake in between Zona posting the time PM thing and now Blazinghand: why the hell would the Acolyte leave YOU alive, when you are(were) such a huge threat to the Angels with your corrupted vote? Why would he leave Refallen alive after the last night, considering he would be a confirmed town and work as a semi-DT? Why didn't we see any acolyte kill at all, especially past RoL lynch? Nah, RoL was the acolyte IMO. Oh, that's true. The reason there were no angel kills was because they had one shot and it was twisted. If they had more than one kp, they'd have killed SOMETHING last night, at the very least. That means we're just looking for one angel. | ||
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In every case he made, it took a lot of pressure to get the man to commit. For most of this game, Grack is non-committal. Why does he hide in the shadows so? Why does he lurk? + Show Spoiler + On January 06 2012 04:26 Grackaroni wrote: fine. ##Vote: HarbingerofDoom But with that I am off, Will be back in a few hours though, I promise On January 11 2012 13:13 Grackaroni wrote: I feel that between risk.nuke and RoL, Risk.nuke is the better lynch. RoL seems to truly believe that the voting block and confirmed townies would be more helpful than the blues themselves and seems to have spent a lot of time considering the implications of the mass roleclaim. I get the feeling that he legitimately believes his plan is good for town, and he stands by it even after the town declared it anti-town. The largest flaw in the plan is not the theory itself but the actual application. If only a portion of the town comes in to claim the whole plan falls apart, letting a portion of townies make claims is bad. Besides it's possible that we have a couple derp townies who would lie about their roles in order to save themselves or draw hits. risk.nuke mentioned a plan that consisted of sitting back and observing posts and got pissed off at Syllo for ruining it. I think he has been overreacting to accusations. He also is using meta on other people yet when it's used against himself meta is worthless. The only thing I agree with is that Palmar's flip does make me think that you are less likely to be a demon, still though if you were an Angel of course you're going to ask to be checked in order to prolong your life. With 20 hours to go we need to start consolidating our votes. I think risk.nuke is more likely scum than RoL but either one is preferable to a no-lynch. ##Vote: risk.nuke Even his attack on me (and his defense of RoL) is couched in unclear, uncertain terminology to take the edge off it: + Show Spoiler + On January 14 2012 00:18 Grackaroni wrote: I don't think BH is nearly as pro-town as people think he is. There have been times in this game where BH has blatantly not read the thread or is misinterpreting posts. He likes to focus in on people who he feels are useless such as his case for Bluelightz (which only showed that he was anti-town) his case on erandorr (he ignores the meta which only proves that he is inactive and doesn't want to be modkilled) and finally his case on RoL (he's not scumhunting, his plan looks shitty) You are not actually scumhunting, you just lock in on people acting anti-town and tunnel them for the rest of the day to make yourself look good. you grab all their quotes and make a "case" but in reality it actually resembles what bluelightz' cases look like. Your play is legitimately worse than in Student. I am still suspicious of how long it took RoL to start scumhunting but at least he finally started. @BH: why not look into a player more active rather than only focusing on players doing nothing? there's 5 scum to catch. He also tries to disrupt my communication with the demons, after I've clearly laid out a method of communication with them: + Show Spoiler + On January 17 2012 07:49 Grackaroni wrote: Why don't the demons just reveal RoL's flip, it will help us make a better decision and help you're team overall. You guys want an angel lynch just as badly as we do, use BH to vote on Tyrran if he was channeler, Use BH to vote on dirkzor if he was scum That way we know for sure whether we need to lynch HoD or not. A mislynch is BAD for your team today, give us the information and we can avoid it. Communicating with the demons via corrupted townies is allowed right? Now I'm going to talk about his interactions with Jackal. Although he vaguely talks about Jackal once or twice, here are the only two posts in which he meaningfully interacts with Jackal: On January 14 2012 10:47 Grackaroni wrote: @Jackal: I thought you wanted to lynch dirkzor? Why BL and not dirkzor... @Refallen: my vote is the 4th one there. double check before posting. The idea itself is good though, I would be happy to lynch RoL or spaackle and to banish HoD to purgatory. On January 18 2012 08:39 Grackaroni wrote: Jackal has as good chances of being angel as Tyrran/Dirkzor/Bluelightz. As long as we get a majority we've got this. ##Vote:Jackal58 So, the first one is some really low-aggression pressure on Jackal. I don't consider that a point in Grack's favor. The fact that nothing else is actually a direct interaction with Jackal is somewhat disconcerting, but on the other hand, Jackal didn't post very much. The second one actually seems like it might be an instance of anti-angel action by Grack. But look at the context before it: How hesitant and slow he is! How clueless! Jackal has to tell him! He did end up becoming instrumental in lynching Jackal, but if you take a look, he slaps down his vote and leaves the thread at about the same time Jackal stops trying to defend himself. It's possible that at this moment, these two decided in their QT that it was time to bus and that there was no way Jackal was avoiding the noose. That's my case on Grack. It's what I got. I made this case rather than a case on, say, Zeph, because Grack seemed more suspicious to me before I started reading his filter. That being said, trust nobody. Discuss this a lot. Make cases on everyone who is scummy. Find the scum mistakes and scum behavior and drag them out into the sunlight. Have constant vigilance. | ||
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By the way, I fully anticipated a heated and interesting discussion tomorrow. Don't just be all like "we're gonna lynch grack" unless you think he's the best lynch out of the unconfirmed towns. *I* think he is the best lynch, but I'm probably not gonna be alive to make a vote tomorrow. In the event of Gracks' innocence: Grack, as a town player, I want you to try as hard as possible to get the scum lynched. That'll start with you trying to make a solid case on someone else and thereby exonerate yourself. It is your responsibility to do so. Like, anything we can do to generate evidence and put pressure on the final angel is good. The worst possible scenario is a silent day in which someone gets lynched. I want a heated discussion. I want fingers pointed. I want people making analysis and reading filters. Scumhunting Who was pro RoL or anti RoL? And more importantly, what were the reasons they gave, and were they on the fence? remember the angels didn't know the demons would mask that lynch. During the whole Jackal debacle, and my attempts to commune with the demons, what were people doing? There won't be that many people left alive. Filters won't be too long with me dead, either :D I guarantee you that right now, the last angel has already revealed himself. This game has been long enough that it's possible to find it out just based on analyzing and discussing tomorrow. I'm sure he's slipped up somewhere. Confirmed Townies Lastly, remember that it's not strictly true that there are tons of confirmed towns. Refallen is confirmed due to his called shots, and I'm basically confirmed via my senses, vote on Jackal, sense on Tyrran. HoD isn't actually confirmed unless he confirms Bluelightz-- in which case, it's very unlikely that the two of them are lying since there's probably only 1 angel. The people who have the most information (assuming that Bluelightz and HoD are both what they say they are) are actually the unconfirmed townies. See, you know your own alignment, which nobody else knows. For you, there is one less possible scum suspect than there is for Refallen. Use your information advantage. scumhunt as hard as possible. We are not currently in a "town wins for sure" scenario. Yes, we have 3 bites at the apple, but this is an apple that could take more than 3 bites to eat. Scumhunt. Read filters. Make cases. Keep the thread active. Good luck, town. Don't let your guard down. | ||
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Think about how angst-ridden she was, asking WHY her lover exists! The pain their forbidden passion brings her is so great! | ||
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EDIT: Obs QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/gWLc45bnmdC65 | ||
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On January 22 2012 01:23 wherebugsgo wrote: I really don't understand what the point of a breadcrumb (in the way HoD did it) as town is. You breadcrumb your results as town, not your role, because anyone can breadcrumb any role they want. The whole point of breadcrumbing is so that, if you're shot by mafia, town can reread your posts and find your targets and the results. Of course with the current state of the TL meta townies don't really have to worry much about scum fakeclaims, because scum are fucking lazy, but honestly if scum play improves a tiny bit, townies will get shafted sooooo hard by that crumbing business. Jk jk jk | ||
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On January 22 2012 02:16 layabout wrote: The actual case on RoL was poor. It did not show how what he had done was scummy. I consider the case on RoL to be THE thing I did right this game. I looked at his actions and motivations and found they were incongruent with him being a town player. The only possible reasoning was that he was scum. The fact that it took so much effort from me to actually get him lynched is disheartening, but I'm glad we got it done. | ||
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Like, why do you think I pushed him so hard? I sat down and thought about what could motivate someone to suggest a plan like that, and the ONLY thing I could think of was "well, he must be scum." No other explanation made sense. There's NO way he would suggest that plan without being a mafia player. As soon as I realized this, I decided I would bury RoL at all costs regardless of what anyone said. | ||
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The logic there seems impeccable. EDIT: Like, given that everyone thought the plan hurt town, I'm amazed we didn't just dogpile him and lynch him right away after he suggested it. Srsly. | ||
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On January 22 2012 02:57 layabout wrote: I think that most of the criticisms were weak and that many people showed that they did not fully understand the plan. I think that RoL's responses were actually much stronger than the criticisms. I think that town players, are entirely capable of coming up with or pushing plans that are bad for town. I think that we could not have made a reliable judgement concerning how good/bad RoL thought his plan was for town, since he was out-arguing his critics and trying to push the plan to convince us to follow it (this would make sense for a player of either alignment) Since we could not reliably judge whether or not he was trying to manipulate or help us i think that we could not use his plan as the basis for calling him scum. You're leaving out the part where his plan is actually bad for town, and lets the angels win. Yes, people had poorly thought out criticisms of the plan. Yes, RoL defended his plan skillfully. Yes, it's possible he was a terrible townie who wrote a 3,000 word plan without thinking through the consequences of it. But it was still a bad plan, and he was still pushing it. Why would you push a bad plan? Because you are scum. So I tunneled him for a week. EDIT: Look, I had a clear read on RoL. I believed like 99% that he was scum. How, in that circumstance, am I NOT going to push him, and push him hard? | ||
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On January 22 2012 03:22 layabout wrote: BH you have yet again completely missed the point i am making i blame you for this: I don't remember the context for that quotation. I'm not sure what the point is, but RoL thought he could get away with suggesting an anti-town plan, and I pushed him, and he got lynched. Like, why would he push that plan? what motivation could he have? I can't think of a solid motivation except "I dont' want town to win" so clearly he was scum. EDIT: Hey, and it turned out he WAS scum! How about that! | ||
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In any case, it seems Wiggle-Dawg agreed with me as well, on RoL :D I'll go take a look at your post. | ||
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On January 11 2012 02:43 layabout wrote: If we want to analyse the plan we need to do the following: We need to look a the player and look at what he is saying. We need to make a judgements on:
we can also look at possible motivations for suggesting the plan, and how these might change with different alignments etc... We have to look at a lot of different things in order to decide upon whether his plan makes him more likely to be scum. jumping from to is logically unsound. What is more important is whether RoL beleived it was anti-town when he suggested it (if he didn't then it is null). If you think he did believe it was anti-town we then have to look at his actions more closely to find evidence to support that ideas and ways in which RoL tries to push an anti-town plan. The judgements that i have made about his plan (i haven't shared them) have lead me to the conclusion that is is not scummy. +i might post about risk later or tomorrow if i feel like it I think you and I scumhunt in entirely different ways. You take a look at all this stuff like What does the player suggesting the plan think the consequences of suggesting or following the plan will be How they want us to perceive their plan How they tell us it will work in practice Here's what I look at: Why would he suggest whatever plan he's suggesting? What's his motivation? I determined that there's no reason he'd suggest that plan besides "being scum" I don't care how he presented it or whatever, this is what I saw RoL do:
I see no reason to do this unless you are scum. All I care about are the motivations for why someone would do something. I somewhat care what people say, but the real tell is WHY they say it. Does his play make sense if he's town? does it make sense if he's scum? etc. I think this is the most crucial part of scum-hunting. I also think it's a TOTALLY reasonable step in logic from "all he does is lurk and do anti-town stuff" to "##Vote: RebirthofLegend" And I think that although I am a stubborn guy, my case was sound. EDIT: On January 22 2012 03:32 layabout wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13091508 i am giving up. your stubbornness is unfathomable Edit: It doesn't even matter what his alignment is/was Edit: all this editing is so fun, maybe i should go back and put more spoilers into my posts Are you giving up, or just closing your mind to another way of thinking? Who is the stubborn one here, the one who is willing to have a discussion, or the one who walks away from it? It DOES matter what his alignment is/was. It DOES matter, because the purpose of scumhunting isn't to follow some sort of "scumhunting etiquette", or to line up with whatever you personally think scumhunting should be-- the purpose of scumhunting is to catch scum. I daresay that my case on RoL was effective in that regard. If nothing else, it made him stop lurking and incriminate himself in the eyes of the town. | ||
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Also, I think my RoL case was pretty good. It was good enough to get him lynched. EDIT: Also, we wouldn't have had mislynches on you and Erandorr if either of you did anything useful all game. I can honestly say I would lynch Erandorr again in the same circumstances, gladly and without remorse. If someone is gonna lurk and be unhelpful, I will lynch them Day 1 every time. I will do this until there are no lurkers left in TL Mafia. | ||
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On January 22 2012 04:16 risk.nuke wrote: Yeah, my game wasn't flawless either. I was tired, got tunneled, felt demotivated, and I'm generally a bad scumhunter day 1. Maybe it was awefull. But I was a bad lynch. For me to accept that I wasn't is to accept that letting people vote without reasoning is a good idea. But you see, that's the point! YOU WERE A BAD LYNCH. You totes could have defended yourself, in that case. If you were really a bad lynch, I don't see how you, being A) innocent and B) a bad lynch were gonna get lynched. I think that if you had defended yourself adequately and made a solid case on someone else you'd have been fine. You SHOULD have been fine. | ||
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Like, if there's nothing to defend yourself against, just make a REAL CASE and people will be all "hey this is actually a good case" and get on that, right? If there was really no legitimate case against you, wouldn't offering forward a legitimate case totally take the pressure off you? or am I missing something here. | ||
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On January 10 2012 21:41 risk.nuke wrote: Syllogism, Tyrran so far hasn't played how I expected him to. His posts seem alot like he is trying to match his steamship meta but it just doesn't have the same essence. I don't think I'm willing to lynch him just yet. But that could change, I'm not going to say I can't be talked into lynching him so he can just lurk the entire day safely. HoD, I might be alittle biased to the fact that this is one of the few people who have defended me. On the other hand if he we keep going by the assumption that the demons put him in purgatory which I absolutely think is what happend the motive could either have been to protect one of their own or framing someone else to make it look like they were. There are a few things that makes HoD a viable lynch. There is a chance he is the AoD, and there is a chance he is a demon. I don't like how he speculates alot about scum actions. In fairness it makes sense that he should do this more then otherssince he was singled out by scumactions but I still think a scum is inclined to do so. This is like the strongest case you make when you're under attack, but this is just a bunch of waffling. Where's your scumhunting? Other than this you make bad attempts to defend yourself, accuse people of being bad tunneling angels, generally deride fellow members of the town, etc. Is that really an effective way to play? Where are your quotes of people showing inconsistency or scummy play? Where are your attempts at contributing to the town? There aren't any. At all. Read your own filter and pretend it's someone else and ask yourself "was this guy helping the town?" | ||
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Blazinghand
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What motivation could he have for lurking for 72 hours then suggesting a pro-scum plan? Why, he 's scum of course :D | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 22 2012 08:37 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: On this issue this is all I am going to say. If I tell you that the center of the earth is filled with tiny gnomes who ride bicycles that cause the earth to revolve around the sun, and then at the end of the game I find out that the earth really does revolve around the sun, does my conclusion being correct automatically mean my premise was correct? Do you seriously believe lurking for the first 72 hours is town behavior? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On January 22 2012 09:11 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Regardless of my alignment, that would have happened since I was busy. It means nothing. If you were town, it would have been terrible play! 72 hours of not helping! There's no reason you'd do that as scum. Your posts weren't even trying to help. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
ROFL yeah well it's not how long your filter is, it's how you use it. Actually at the time he died, my filter was only 18 pages long IIRC. So maybe he only read my filter, and that was 15-20 pages of the game :D | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
Town won. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
But thanks for the post game writeup! I feel like this illuminated a lot of stuff that I sort of considered but never really realized/put to words. Also sorry about the "day post is late" posts | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
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