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On December 29 2011 19:08 Palmar wrote:Oh come on, can you at least wait for a few hours before you propose the team? The day post came up around 23:00 my time and you suggest a team before 9am the morning after.I don't agree with Zona on your team. I think the rest looks fine. The reason of why I'm a bit vary of zona is this: Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:54 Zona wrote:
claring his desire not to contribute today, yet implies that he'll examine what we contribute today. Unless the ideal strategy is to not say anything of importance Day 1...but he should have said that specifically if he believed it. Obviously, it's dumb as fuck to not contribute on day one, this was just a misunderstanding, when I said I'd "read this tomorrow", I meant tomorrow IRL, thus same game-day, just after I had slept. However, if he indeed understood me to mean I'd not post/read anything until day 2, the reasonable town response is to call me out hard on it, instead of vaguely claiming he doesn't agree with it. There is literally no reason not to talk in this setup, especially with no chance of dying at any point in the game, mafia can't take out good townies in this game, so offering the idea that there might be some "ideal strategy" of saying nothing of importance day 1, which is just... bad. So yeah, I'll be voting against this. About last night's mission, that stuff gave me more information than any of you, because I know there is one scum between blaze and radfield. Seeing as we'll need 5 people on the day 5 mission, I think I'm going to suggest we include one of them in the mission today along with me. If we pick our shots well we can potentially clear 2-3 people today, which would take us a long way to winning. Another thing to mention, Jackal58 hammered the vote, not Radfield.
This.
And this. You don't stand in the door admiring the view. You fucking jump. And now we know one of either Rad BH or you is a spy.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 29 2011 19:24 Palmar wrote:It is highly unlikely there were two scum on last day's team, I've gone through both Rad's and Blazinghand's filters, and neither of them posted anything that can be called out for being communication about whether or not they'd sabotage. The closest thing is this post from Blazinghand which could possible be him claiming he'd not sabotage: Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote:
If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
On December 29 2011 19:25 Palmar wrote:
Stuff like this is the reason I said there should be absolutely no talk about Spy strategies.
Yeah well you hadn't mentioned that yet at the time I made that post man D: Also that was made WRT: 2 "vets", 1 "me" etc, in a post talking about a plan for Radfield given that certain assumptions with which I disagreed were true.
You didn't mention the "don't talk about spy strategies" tip (a useful tip, btw) until the 27th. I wasn't breaking the rule.
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On December 29 2011 19:31 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 19:08 Palmar wrote:Oh come on, can you at least wait for a few hours before you propose the team? The day post came up around 23:00 my time and you suggest a team before 9am the morning after.I don't agree with Zona on your team. I think the rest looks fine. The reason of why I'm a bit vary of zona is this: On December 27 2011 06:54 Zona wrote:
claring his desire not to contribute today, yet implies that he'll examine what we contribute today. Unless the ideal strategy is to not say anything of importance Day 1...but he should have said that specifically if he believed it. Obviously, it's dumb as fuck to not contribute on day one, this was just a misunderstanding, when I said I'd "read this tomorrow", I meant tomorrow IRL, thus same game-day, just after I had slept. However, if he indeed understood me to mean I'd not post/read anything until day 2, the reasonable town response is to call me out hard on it, instead of vaguely claiming he doesn't agree with it. There is literally no reason not to talk in this setup, especially with no chance of dying at any point in the game, mafia can't take out good townies in this game, so offering the idea that there might be some "ideal strategy" of saying nothing of importance day 1, which is just... bad. So yeah, I'll be voting against this. About last night's mission, that stuff gave me more information than any of you, because I know there is one scum between blaze and radfield. Seeing as we'll need 5 people on the day 5 mission, I think I'm going to suggest we include one of them in the mission today along with me. If we pick our shots well we can potentially clear 2-3 people today, which would take us a long way to winning. Another thing to mention, Jackal58 hammered the vote, not Radfield. This. And this. You don't stand in the door admiring the view. You fucking jump. And now we know one of either Rad BH or you is a spy.
Two questions, why did you hammer it without giving much thought about it? I had declared the intentions of voting in favor, but I specifically held off so we could get more comments.
Why do you assume there was only one spy on the mission? Did you do what I did and go back to read to see if there might be any breadcrumbs? I'm curious.
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On December 29 2011 19:37 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 19:24 Palmar wrote:It is highly unlikely there were two scum on last day's team, I've gone through both Rad's and Blazinghand's filters, and neither of them posted anything that can be called out for being communication about whether or not they'd sabotage. The closest thing is this post from Blazinghand which could possible be him claiming he'd not sabotage: On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote:
If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 19:25 Palmar wrote:
Stuff like this is the reason I said there should be absolutely no talk about Spy strategies. Yeah well you hadn't mentioned that yet at the time I made that post man D: Also that was made WRT: 2 "vets", 1 "me" etc, in a post talking about a plan for Radfield given that certain assumptions with which I disagreed were true. You didn't mention the "don't talk about spy strategies" tip (a useful tip, btw) until the 27th. I wasn't breaking the rule.
I can't actually make rules, and me saying it doesn't necessarily define from what point it's acceptable. You're not "clear" because you got a potential breadcrumb in before some arbitary deadline (the time of my post).
I mean, anyone in town should be able to recognize that it's vital to deny the spy team communication. You did not see this. I'm inclined to suggest a mission team that doesn't include you, but includes both Radfield and I.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
If you suggest a team that includes Radfield you will not have my vote, Palmar. One of you two is mafia-- such a team will certainly fail. Regardless, I think it's fairly reasonable to not post spy strategies, unless your'e suggesting that people SHOULD do so? Also, What the hell a breadcrumb? I was talking about a hypothetical circumstance in which somone held the same assumptions but put together a different team ._. it was a scenario that wasn't actually in existence at the time, and a team comp that I explicitly said I wouldn't support for a number of reasons.
And when Radfield did suggest a shitty ass team (because it included him, who was scummy), I voted against it. Did Jackal hammer it? yes. But it's worth noting that Radfield tried to be the hammer. He didn't vote for his own team until I called him out for it.
That being said, Jackal did hammer. Guys need to be more careful with their hammers man.
That ALSO being said, I find this current team with VE to be somewhat unacceptable. I am not comfortable voting Yay for it at the moment.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Man the reason we're in this crappy D2 situation is because nobody tried to like get stuff done D1 and stuff got hammered. I'm looking at you TruthBringer mr "oh I guess I might as well blindly yay vote this sounds like a good idea, oh no wait someone called me out well, I might as well wait until the team is suggested then yay vote immediately"
I see no reason to vote anything but Nay for this team. At LEAST it's not the terrible "4 people who didn't go last night" team AND it's not the "team with both radfield and palmar", but we seriously need to do better than this. A clean team tonight is basically worth 2 points since the 3rd mission is the same size as the 2nd mission.
I'm voting Nay.
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Yeah as mentioned I like the idea of having one vet in there, either rad or palmar but I don't see why zona should be in there.
Yes if he started talking out of the blue that would be a nice tell but would still leave us with 2 more spies. It's not like a bad candidate but he's at most slightly townish for me while we have way better looking people like greymist or me although I can't really judge how I'm looking from the outside :p
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I agree that it's most likely that there was only 1 spy on the mission last night. However, all of you should not take my (or Palmar's) word for it and read Palmar/Radfield/blazinghand's filters yourself.
I'm suspicious of Radfield. His posting feels tangibly artificial whenever he's scum, and it feels that way in this game.
If we're going to aim for a 0 spy mission tonight, we have to take Palmar. Picking 4 from the remaining 6 (where we assume there are 2 spies) and hoping for zero spies is a very low probability deal. And I'm not comfortable with either Radfield or blazinghand. We must score a successful mission tonight, or figure out at least 4 players who are town in the process, if we are to guarantee that we don't immediately lose night 3. I'm still thinking through the merits of aiming for a 0 spy mission, vs aiming for a 2+ spy mission so don't call me out on the "if" part just yet.
On December 29 2011 19:08 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:54 Zona wrote:
claring his desire not to contribute today, yet implies that he'll examine what we contribute today. Unless the ideal strategy is to not say anything of importance Day 1...but he should have said that specifically if he believed it. Obviously, it's dumb as fuck to not contribute on day one, this was just a misunderstanding, when I said I'd "read this tomorrow", I meant tomorrow IRL, thus same game-day, just after I had slept. However, if he indeed understood me to mean I'd not post/read anything until day 2, the reasonable town response is to call me out hard on it, instead of vaguely claiming he doesn't agree with it.
I didn't call you out hard on it because I thought everything else you wrote had merit.
Actually, there's one thing I posted that I regret, which you guys should be calling me out on:
On December 27 2011 06:44 Zona wrote:
However, the other factor in the game is that a spy could be the leader - and then this person could pretty much do whatever the heck he/she wanted. 1 spy on the team? Done. Or maybe 2 spies on the team while trying to subtly tell the other spy not to sabotage? Dunno. On day 1 I doubt we can really tell with confidence if the leader is a spy or not, so I believe that Radfield should be the one to pick. On later days we may want to reject picks from suspected spy leaders.
It's for this reason that if Truth's team is rejected, I will forgo choosing a team and all of you should just vote nay on me. That means GreY should start thinking about what team to propose.
As for Truth's team, I'm still mulling over whether or not Truth is likely town, because I think whether or not the team is good solely depends on if Truth is town.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Zona I think your post in the voting thread is misformatted, unless you're voting no for a team you yourself proposed.
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...
Did you even read the post I made, just right above your post?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
OH WOW I'M A MORON DON'T MIND ME
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 29 2011 10:13 Blazinghand wrote:
Like imagine the inverse-- i think radfield is scum but i vote yes on a team including him
.. that makes no sense at all. Given my reads and my knowledge i made the right call. I am severely dissapointed that others did not do the same.
That being said, take a look at Radfield's voting pattern. He was trying to set up abquickhammer and didnt justify his team until called out. I would recommend swapping him out for sire tonight for these reasons.
You are deliberately stretching the truth. Why would you possibly think I was trying to setup some sort of quickhammer? Obviously I am voting Yay on any team I put forward, hence I did not realize I had to vote until it was pointed out to me. Are you really stretching that into scum motivations? Not just that but deliberately scummy and blantant quickhammer scum motivations?
And when Radfield did suggest a shitty ass team (because it included him, who was scummy),
You name your reasons for finding me scummy as A) going against my initial post, and B) not providing my reasons for my team. Correct?
Yet the pure fact that I went against my initial post shows that I'm thinking and willing to find the best team possible. My first post was based entirely on conjecture, so obviously I am not going to hold myself to that in the face of additional information. I'm going to take the players I think are most likely town. Including Palmar in my team, a player who you obviously think is likely town, should only have reinforced the likelihood of me being town, since I independently came to the same conclusion as you(assuming you are town). I then included him, despite me already having a clear-cut reason to not do so(my initial post). If I was scum I have complete information anyways, so no need for me to blatantly contradict myself.
Second, you have stated multiple times that I provided my team without reason, and only after being PRESSURED by you did I give up my reasons. This is false. That is not what happened, as I already explained. I wrote up my second post without seeing your post asking for my reasoning. Check the time stamps. Maybe you think I wrote my post up within 2 minutes, but anyone who knows me knows I take a lot longer than that to make posts. Certainly if I am scum trying to defend myself from an attack I would not write up something and post it within 2 minutes.
Not to mention, my reasons at that stage are going to be weak at best. People were clamoring for a team so we could get going, and I proposed the best one I saw at the time. I think I likely made a mistake including you though.
You should not be on any mission from here on out, and if you want to auto-nay things that's fine by me. You have a ton of scummy things going for you right now:
On December 29 2011 09:18 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the next day team should not inclide anyone from the day one team since one person from the day one team is scum I will auto nay any vote that includes members of the day one team besides myself.it has been obvious to me that ras is scum in the way he presented and argued his team. That being said none of you guys know my aligment so yhe optimal strat for anyone not sent on last night's mission is to vote nay on any team containing members from that.
This plan is absurdly anti-town. As pointed out, the likelihood of nabbing the proper 4 players from the remaining 6 are very low. If we fail this mission, we gain almost no additional info moving forward.
Also, you voted nay against a Day 1 mission that included you. Lets just think about that for a moment. On Day 1 you have almost no info on other players. If you are town and included in a mission, the likelihood of that mission succeeding goes up astronomically(compared to a mission with 3 players who are not you). Yet you voted against it, and are somehow positive I am scum, based on things that are largely irrelevant, and certainly not scummy.
Again, assuming you are town, you know one of myself or Palmar is scum. Yet you are absolutely convinced it is me, and giving Palmar a huge free pass. That makes no sense. I am sitting here looking at your posts thinking, "that guy is almost certainly a spy", yet I'm not about to give Palmar a free pass, because I could very well be wrong. Yet you seem absolutely certain, which is absurd at this stage.
One of you two is scum, that is a fact. Right now I lean probably 80-20 in favor of blaze.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 29 2011 17:33 TruthBringer wrote:
Firstly, I will go on the mission.
Second, Palmar has given the strongest town read so far, imo, so I'll include him. He has had no opportunity for subtle communication with teammates, plus he gave helpful advice with his one post.
Third, Zona has been similarly quiet, so if he suddenly started talking to communicate with his teammates it would be noticed. My read on him otherwise is null, but my read is similarly null or scummy on his competition.
Finally, VisceraEyes is giving me a townread.
I want to do these four, because I want to pick the highest likelihood of all townies. I think that if I tried to go with an information gain squad, it would put us at 0-2, which we really can't afford.
So,
Truthbringer
Palmar
Zona
VisceraEyes
I also disagree with sending zona right now. However I agree with Truth, Palmar and VE.
Truth
Palmar
Radfield
VE
That is the team I would like to see sent.
However, I have not reread the thread yet, so I'm not really sure if this is the optimum send.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 29 2011 09:18 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the next day team should not inclide anyone from the day one team since one person from the day one team is scum. I will auto nay any vote that includes members of the day one team besides myself.it has been obvious to me that ras is scum in the way he presented and argued his team. That being said none of you guys know my aligment so yhe optimal strat for anyone not sent on last night's mission is to vote nay on any team containing members from that.
Also anyone who believes VE that i am more suspicious for my post against the team "near the end of the day" is a moron or scum or both. I was pointing out the danger of a Radfield quickhammer. The day was only close to the end because some guys voted yes after my post, not due to the time limitation. Believe it or not i fingered Rad as scum and I stand by that read and my nay vote.
On December 29 2011 20:19 Blazinghand wrote:
Man the reason we're in this crappy D2 situation is because nobody tried to like get stuff done D1 and stuff got hammered. I'm looking at you TruthBringer mr "oh I guess I might as well blindly yay vote this sounds like a good idea, oh no wait someone called me out well, I might as well wait until the team is suggested then yay vote immediately"
I see no reason to vote anything but Nay for this team. At LEAST it's not the terrible "4 people who didn't go last night" team AND it's not the "team with both radfield and palmar", but we seriously need to do better than this. A clean team tonight is basically worth 2 points since the 3rd mission is the same size as the 2nd mission.
I'm voting Nay.
You are basically blatantly contradicting yourself. A) " I will not vote for any team which includes someone from day one", B) "at least it's not the terrible suggestions that I made".
An additional contradiction: You are stating over and over that I am obvious scum, yet you are refusing to vote for any team that includes Palmar. Yet if you think only 1 scum went on the mission, and you are positive it was me, you should be backing Palmar to be included in the Day 2 mission. Yet you are stating the opposite.
I will auto nay any vote that includes members of the day one team besides myself.it has been obvious to me that ras is scum in the way he presented and argued his team.
^Look at this quote! You state I am the obvious scum on the team, yet you will not vote for any team with Palmar. That is brutal.
Where the F is YOUR team blazinghand, this is your contribution:
...I see no reason to vote anything but Nay for this team. At LEAST it's not the terrible "4 people who didn't go last night" team AND it's not the "team with both radfield and palmar", but we seriously need to do better than this. A clean team tonight is basically worth 2 points since the 3rd mission is the same size as the 2nd mission.
Who do YOU want to send today. What do YOU think is the optimal team. You don't get to stand in the shadows and snipe just because you are not the team leader.
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How would you feel about sending me, truth, visceraeyes, and one more townie looking player (that'd be someone that's not jackal, blazinghand or zona).
so greymist or toad?
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On December 29 2011 21:00 Zona wrote:Actually, there's one thing I posted that I regret, which you guys should be calling me out on: Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:44 Zona wrote:
However, the other factor in the game is that a spy could be the leader - and then this person could pretty much do whatever the heck he/she wanted. 1 spy on the team? Done. Or maybe 2 spies on the team while trying to subtly tell the other spy not to sabotage? Dunno. On day 1 I doubt we can really tell with confidence if the leader is a spy or not, so I believe that Radfield should be the one to pick. On later days we may want to reject picks from suspected spy leaders. It's for this reason that if Truth's team is rejected, I will forgo choosing a team and all of you should just vote nay on me. That means GreY should start thinking about what team to propose. As for Truth's team, I'm still mulling over whether or not Truth is likely town, because I think whether or not the team is good solely depends on if Truth is town.
Believe it or not, I was waiting to see which of Palmar or Radfield called you out on it. XD
The fact that Palmar didn't doesn't sit well with me...but I'm still in favor of the 1 scum on N1 mission, and I still think that's Blaze at this juncture...
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On December 29 2011 20:05 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 19:31 Jackal58 wrote:On December 29 2011 19:08 Palmar wrote:Oh come on, can you at least wait for a few hours before you propose the team? The day post came up around 23:00 my time and you suggest a team before 9am the morning after.I don't agree with Zona on your team. I think the rest looks fine. The reason of why I'm a bit vary of zona is this: On December 27 2011 06:54 Zona wrote:
claring his desire not to contribute today, yet implies that he'll examine what we contribute today. Unless the ideal strategy is to not say anything of importance Day 1...but he should have said that specifically if he believed it. Obviously, it's dumb as fuck to not contribute on day one, this was just a misunderstanding, when I said I'd "read this tomorrow", I meant tomorrow IRL, thus same game-day, just after I had slept. However, if he indeed understood me to mean I'd not post/read anything until day 2, the reasonable town response is to call me out hard on it, instead of vaguely claiming he doesn't agree with it. There is literally no reason not to talk in this setup, especially with no chance of dying at any point in the game, mafia can't take out good townies in this game, so offering the idea that there might be some "ideal strategy" of saying nothing of importance day 1, which is just... bad. So yeah, I'll be voting against this. About last night's mission, that stuff gave me more information than any of you, because I know there is one scum between blaze and radfield. Seeing as we'll need 5 people on the day 5 mission, I think I'm going to suggest we include one of them in the mission today along with me. If we pick our shots well we can potentially clear 2-3 people today, which would take us a long way to winning. Another thing to mention, Jackal58 hammered the vote, not Radfield. This. And this. You don't stand in the door admiring the view. You fucking jump. And now we know one of either Rad BH or you is a spy. Two questions, why did you hammer it without giving much thought about it? I had declared the intentions of voting in favor, but I specifically held off so we could get more comments. Why do you assume there was only one spy on the mission? Did you do what I did and go back to read to see if there might be any breadcrumbs? I'm curious.
I hammered it because we already had two days of people saying a whole lot of nothing.
I'm not assuming there is only one. But we now know that at least one of the 3 of you is. That is a fact. Anything else is speculation.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 29 2011 23:33 Palmar wrote:
How would you feel about sending me, truth, visceraeyes, and one more townie looking player (that'd be someone that's not jackal, blazinghand or zona).
so greymist or toad?
I would be ok with Palmar, truth, VE and greymist. Less ok with toad.
I think my ideal team right now would be Palmar, Greymist, VE and myself. With Palmar, Radfield, VE and Truth as second.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:10 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 20:05 Palmar wrote:On December 29 2011 19:31 Jackal58 wrote:On December 29 2011 19:08 Palmar wrote:Oh come on, can you at least wait for a few hours before you propose the team? The day post came up around 23:00 my time and you suggest a team before 9am the morning after.I don't agree with Zona on your team. I think the rest looks fine. The reason of why I'm a bit vary of zona is this: On December 27 2011 06:54 Zona wrote:
claring his desire not to contribute today, yet implies that he'll examine what we contribute today. Unless the ideal strategy is to not say anything of importance Day 1...but he should have said that specifically if he believed it. Obviously, it's dumb as fuck to not contribute on day one, this was just a misunderstanding, when I said I'd "read this tomorrow", I meant tomorrow IRL, thus same game-day, just after I had slept. However, if he indeed understood me to mean I'd not post/read anything until day 2, the reasonable town response is to call me out hard on it, instead of vaguely claiming he doesn't agree with it. There is literally no reason not to talk in this setup, especially with no chance of dying at any point in the game, mafia can't take out good townies in this game, so offering the idea that there might be some "ideal strategy" of saying nothing of importance day 1, which is just... bad. So yeah, I'll be voting against this. About last night's mission, that stuff gave me more information than any of you, because I know there is one scum between blaze and radfield. Seeing as we'll need 5 people on the day 5 mission, I think I'm going to suggest we include one of them in the mission today along with me. If we pick our shots well we can potentially clear 2-3 people today, which would take us a long way to winning. Another thing to mention, Jackal58 hammered the vote, not Radfield. This. And this. You don't stand in the door admiring the view. You fucking jump. And now we know one of either Rad BH or you is a spy. Two questions, why did you hammer it without giving much thought about it? I had declared the intentions of voting in favor, but I specifically held off so we could get more comments. Why do you assume there was only one spy on the mission? Did you do what I did and go back to read to see if there might be any breadcrumbs? I'm curious. I hammered it because we already had two days of people saying a whole lot of nothing. I'm not assuming there is only one. But we now know that at least one of the 3 of you is. That is a fact. Anything else is speculation.
Who do you think we should send today Jackal? Who do you think is most likely scum out of the three of us? Do you think we should be building a brand new team, or keeping part of the Day 1 team around?
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I chose my team with as little outside influence as possible. I didn't ask for advice, I picked the four safest townies to me and proposed it.
It seems like my team won't be accepted, so whoever ends up getting to pick the team should try to do the same.
If you are a truly townie leader, trust yourself, not the concensus. If you trust the concensus, you may be allowing yourself to be influenced by the spies.
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EPT
