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*prplhz is helping me co-host this game. Any questions can be directed towards him or myself.
Resistance I - London Calling + Show Spoiler [Important Posts] +
Introduction: Resistance is also an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game is to find the spies and complete missions without their interference. It's much like a game of poker because the spies are also part of the town during the day and may manipulate the vote to their liking. Town win if 3 out of 5 possible missions end in a success. The spies win if they infiltrate and sabotage 3 missions first.
The game is typically very active, so the thread will get big quickly. However, it is essential to read the thread to play the game. If you do not have the time or patience to read the whole thread, do not play. I will not compensate for ignorance.
How to play Resistance: The game is played with 9 players, split between 2 teams, 6 Town and 3 Spies. The objective for Town is to complete 3 missions, the objective of the Spies is to sabotage 3 missions, and since missions can only succeed or fail, the game is over within 5 missions. The game begin with the day phase. Using a standard round-robin format, one among the players is designated the leader and gets to suggest a team of a few players, which may include the leader himself, who are sent on a mission to sabotage a facility of the Occupation. Everyone votes on if they accept or reject the proposed team, if it is rejected then the next player in line becomes leader and gets to suggest his own team, if it is accepted then we immediately move to the night phase. During the nightphase the spies who are sent on the mission send PMs to the hosts about whether they help or sabotage the mission. Town may only aid the mission, while spies may choose to aid or sabotage the mission. If enough spies sabotage, then the mission fail (1 sabotage is required on most days, 2 on day 4). After the night phase a new day phase begin, with the next player in line for leader suggesting his team.
Rules: Cheating: Cheating includes (but is not limited to): 1. Ruining the game by doing something like hand out your spyteam list to the town. 2. Logging on to someone else's account to get their role or looking over someone's shoulder to get their role. 3. Comparing role PM times to determine roles. 4. Posting screenshots of your inbox. 5. Posting any PM you receive from a host. 6. Getting yourself replaced to help your team. 7. Signing up more than once using smurf accounts. 8. Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits. 9. Sharing accounts with other players. Only you may post on your account. Cheating is not tolerated here. The punishment will be severe.
Posting: Mod Font: This is mod font. It is reserved for moderators. Please do not use it.
Question Font: This is question font. Use it to ask the moderators questions about the rules. Please do us a favor and read the rules before you ask anything.
Activity: You must post in this thread once during each day phase, and send in your nightaction each time you are sent on a mission, even if you are Town. If you fail to do so, you will be replaced. You are not required to vote on teams.
Smurfs:
On April 26 2011 13:22 mikeymoo wrote: Smurfs must PM the host because TL doesn't allow multiple accounts otherwise. If the host is unaware of smurfs, you (and/or your smurf) can be banned for having multiple accounts.
Spam: Spam is not tolerated, nor is any off-topic material. Do not discuss Proleague here. Do not talk about Starcraft II here. Play Mafia here.
Editing: Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be replaced. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting. While I ask for everybody to post as concisely as possible, post again if you have to edit anything.
Inappropriate posts: If you want to post something insulting or inappropriate and know the TL mods would have a problem with it elsewhere, don't post it here. If you do, a host will warn you or replace you and request that you be banned from future games. The hosts have the final say on what is inappropriate. If you do not like how someone is talking to you, please PM a host, Flamewheel, or Mig before involving the TL staff. If you are unsatisfied with how the situation is resolved, then you can appeal to the TL staff normally.
Reporting posts: The report button is a nice feature for regular TL, but not for this forum. We prefer to deal with things in house if possible to avoid confusion among the TL staff. If you have a problem with how someone is posting, talk to the host, co-host, Flamewheel, or Mig before using your report button. Please do not use your report button for anything other than inappropriate posts which you feel are not being dealt with adequately.
Ban discussions: Please wait until this game is over to talk about replacements and bans resulting from this game.
Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing.
This also means that you cannot leave the game without a good reason without a ban. These situations will be dealt with on a case by case basis. PM your host if you need to leave the game.
You have been warned.
Out of thread communication: Resistance does NOT use any form of out-of-thread communication, not even between spy members. Communication between spies is handled in the thread.
Day phase Voting rules: 1. Voting is done in a separate thread, located Here. Only votes in that thread are counted. Do not PM me your vote. 2. If you are the current leader, suggest your team in the voting thread and use the following format: ##Team: A, B, C, D, E. You may propose a team in advance, but you may not change your team once you become leader. 3. During the first mission, 3 players are needed. During the 2nd and 3rd mission, 4 are sent, and during the 4th and fifth mission, 5 players are part of the team. 4. Please vote in the following format: ##Vote LeaderName: Yay or ##Vote LeaderName: Nay. Votes not done in the correct fashion will not be counted. I will update vote counts whenever I get the chance. 5. No conditional voting. 6. You may vote for your own team. 7. Once a team has 5 Yay votes, it is accepted, the game immediately moves on to the Night phase with the suggested team sent on a mission, even if none of the hosts are online at that time. If a team has 5 Nay votes at any one time, it is immediately rejected and the team of the next leader in line is up for the vote. 8. You can vote for a leaders Team before he has become leader. If a leader has 5 yay-votes when proposing his team, the game goes to night immediately. 9. You may vote against the current leaders team before he/she has proposed a team. This is to prevent problems with the leader being offline for an extended period of time. 10. Voting is not mandatory. 11. If a team has not been decided on by the end of the day phase, the mission automatically fail!
Night phase rules: 1. If you are chosen to go on a mission and is Town, you do not need to send in a nightaction, you automatically aid the mission. 2. If you are chosen to go on a mission and is a Spy, you are aiding the mission on default, if you wish to sabotage then you need to send a PM to both hosts informing them that you are sabotaging the mission. 3. A mission fail if even one spy sabotages it, exception the 4th mission, which require 2 spies sabotaging to fail. 4. Everyone is informed if the mission succeeded or failed, and exactly how many spies sabotaged the mission.
Signups: This game is open to anyone. Signups will remain open until all 9 spots have been filled. This is not a first-come-first-served game, the hosts reserve the option to invite selected players.
Game-specific rules: Modkills: This game follows the TL Mafia Ban List. If you force us to replace you, then your punishment will go beyond being eliminated from this game. Please refer to it for questions about your punishment. If you want to use this game to sit out your ban, please PM Flamewheel or post in the Ban List. Not voting is not immediate grounds for replacement, but low activity and not voting can still get you replaced, decided on case-by-case by the hosts.
Replacements This game uses replacements. Replacements will be made in the game whenever a player drops out or need to be removed from the game.
Clues: There are (no) clues.
PMs PMs are not allowed in this game. Spies may not communicate with among themselves outside this thread.
Time Cycle: This game will follow a variable day/night cycle. The day goes on until a team has been decided on, but at most for 72 hours 96 hours. Once a team is selected night runs until the next deadline, then for 24 hours more, guaranteeing any spies at least 24 hours to send in their night action. Currently the deadline is 23:00 GMT (+00:00), or 0800 KST, but that is subject to change.
Credits: Thanks to anyone who has ever hosted a game. This list grows ever longer.
If you have not read all the rules, go back and do so. I will not compensate for ignorance!
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Signup by posting /signup in the thread. Be warned that noone dies in this game, if you sign up then you commit yourself to playing out the whole game, which could take up to 3 weeks, real time.
Player List: 1. Zona 2. Radfield 3. Palmar 4. Jackal58 5. VisceraEyes 6. Blazinghand 7. Truthbringer 8. GreYMisT 9. Toadesstern
Replacement List: 1. kingjames01 2. hyshes 3. igabod 4. 5. 6. 7.
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Leader List: 1. Radfield 2. Truthbringer 3. Zona 4. GreYMisT 5. Toadesstern 6. Blazinghand 7. Jackal58 8. Palmar 9. VisceraEyes
Radfield is the first leader, after which the others go in order. After VisceraEyes it starts over again with Radfield.
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Role PM Town
Subject: Resistance Role: Town
Good Luck! Role PM Spy
Subject: Resistance Role: Spy
The spyteam is A, B and C.
Remember that you are not allowed to contact them outside the game thread.
Good Luck!
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I really wanted to try this game because people keep killing me in other games. Well the joke is on them!
/in
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edit: wow, that deadline is sexy.
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haha yeah, ♥ european time deadlines.
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Man, I wanted a reserved post too!
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On December 23 2011 19:01 prplhz wrote:Man, I wanted a reserved post too! No, prplhz, you don´t have time to play. Now fetch me a fresh brain!
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On December 23 2011 20:34 Forumite wrote:No, prplhz, you don´t have time to play. Now fetch me a fresh brain!
Do you know how hard it is not to make a mean joke about that?
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will this overlap with "Zona's ??? game"?
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Oh wait no one dies? How's this work then?
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You make a team, and if your team consists of fail, then you fail.
It's kinda like mafia in that regard.
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/in
This looks........
.....interesting.
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Okay, I kinda see where this is going.
Teams are informed if they 'fail' and how many spais sabotaged each night mission. From that information we are supposed to extrapolate who among the team failed.
As spais, you have to decide if it's strategically sound for you to sabotage a mission (more than one spai on a team, whether your teammate is planning on sabotaging, etc). On Night 4, it takes two spais to sabotage.
VEEEERY interesting, is this a game that exists already?
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yes, there's even a board game for it.
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What's it called? I have a "game-night" crew who would probably geek out over this. I tried to turn them on to IRL Mafia, but they couldn't wrap their brain around it. This might be just the thing.
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You're my hero Palmar. I'm literally buying this as we speak.
And I'm going to DOMINATE this game.
/flex
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This is going to be a toughie for the spies. They really have to think individually.
Do the spies know each other?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
This looks like a really awesome game! Is there still room for me to
/signup
?
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If anyone desperately wants to play in this I don't mind sitting out, I'm not very good at mafia anyway.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 24 2011 02:48 xsksc wrote: If anyone desperately wants to play in this I don't mind sitting out, I'm not very good at mafia anyway. Don't put yourself down so much! Nobody got good at mafia by not playing games.
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On December 24 2011 02:48 xsksc wrote: If anyone desperately wants to play in this I don't mind sitting out, I'm not very good at mafia anyway.
Everyone has to start somewhere!
This isn't really a game of Mafia either, it's more about logical thinking and solving puzzles than behavior analysis.
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/signup
Do not want to miss the next one :p
Edit: Crap I'm too late again?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 24 2011 04:31 Toadesstern wrote:/in /signup Do not want to miss the next one :p Edit: Crap I'm too late again?
Not quite!
Signups: This game is open to anyone. Signups will remain open until all 9 spots have been filled. This is not a first-come-first-served game, the hosts reserve the option to invite selected players.
It's not first-come-first-served. I think Forumite will be picking Cool Kids only (tm) for this game. The trick is to be a cool kid like Zona.
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you probably also want to /out hyshes :p He just replaced someone in another game yesterday and won't play 2 games simultaneously I guess
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In the zone like Zona or rad like Radfield.
Okay don't listen to me, Forumite handles all that I'm just here to fetch brains.
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On December 24 2011 04:35 Blazinghand wrote: It's not first-come-first-served. I think Forumite will be picking Cool Kids only (tm) for this game. The trick is to be a cool kid like Zona.
It is, if you check the active games thread, both Zona and Radfield asked forumite to let them join once the game got in. This is mostly done when people have a specific interest in a setup.
So forumite probably pmd them both to let them know the game is up, just like they requested.
So yeah, technically, they were the first ones to sign up for the game.
Zona: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12588419
Radfield: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12592294
Obviously you can't do that every game, but if a game comes around with a theme, mechanic, lore, or just anything that really makes you want to play, it is okay to approach the host and ask for a chance to join the game when it goes up. Some hosts accept pre-signups, others don't.
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Forumite should inv me becuase we were scumbuddies in my first game :D
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On December 24 2011 05:54 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 04:35 Blazinghand wrote: It's not first-come-first-served. I think Forumite will be picking Cool Kids only (tm) for this game. The trick is to be a cool kid like Zona. It is, if you check the active games thread, both Zona and Radfield asked forumite to let them join once the game got in. This is mostly done when people have a specific interest in a setup. So forumite probably pmd them both to let them know the game is up, just like they requested. So yeah, technically, they were the first ones to sign up for the game. Zona: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12588419Radfield: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12592294Obviously you can't do that every game, but if a game comes around with a theme, mechanic, lore, or just anything that really makes you want to play, it is okay to approach the host and ask for a chance to join the game when it goes up. Some hosts accept pre-signups, others don't.
I wanna pre-in Game of Thrones Mafia.
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Looks fun (and unique) as shit.
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or /signup why cant people just use /in every time
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cause they're european
this is the SI-system signup
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Spies know who the other Spies are, they just can´t talk secretly through PMs and Quicktopics.
Every player that would have gotten a modkill in a normal mafia game needs to be replaced, the first few players on the replacement list will most likely get their chance. Noone flips, ever. You won´t ever be sure if someone is a spy, or just misunderstood. Fun!
We´re probably starting in a day or two, after christmas day.
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oh i dont wanna replace sorry /out
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On December 24 2011 05:56 GreYMisT wrote: Forumite should inv me becuase we were scumbuddies in my first game :D Werewolf Mafia, what a game, so many nightkills. Werewolves shooting into Town to get the other team. We only won because noone remembered our lurking werewolf.
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On December 24 2011 09:31 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 05:56 GreYMisT wrote: Forumite should inv me becuase we were scumbuddies in my first game :D Werewolf Mafia, what a game, so many nightkills. Werewolves shooting into Town to get the other team. We only won because noone remembered our lurking werewolf.
that game was ridiculously frustrating to play as town
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
/signup
This is going to be so awesome. If anyone wants a great review of the game check out this one on BGG: link
I may have missed it in the OP, but it is 6 resistance vs 3 spies, yes?
Given that we have 9 players(hard for the resistance), will we be using the "plot thickens" cards?
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I'm all for killing Blazinghand day 1. He's not cool enough.
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On December 24 2011 09:31 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 05:56 GreYMisT wrote: Forumite should inv me becuase we were scumbuddies in my first game :D Werewolf Mafia, what a game, so many nightkills. Werewolves shooting into Town to get the other team. We only won because noone remembered our lurking werewolf. You only won because you killed me.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 24 2011 12:53 Jackal58 wrote: I'm all for killing Blazinghand day 1. He's not cool enough.
alas, no killing in this game. It's a purely non-violent resistance.
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On December 24 2011 13:04 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 12:53 Jackal58 wrote: I'm all for killing Blazinghand day 1. He's not cool enough. alas, no killing in this game. It's a purely non-violent resistance. OK I'll bore him to death.
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/in! I love Resistance... One of my favourite games! Too bad I'm so slow... =(
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Can you run 2 simultaneous games, please???
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fear not kingjames01! /out i can't handle two games at once
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Actually I'll
/out
as well.
Much less time during this Christmas season than I thought I'd have and I'll be traveling after Christmas.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I'm very excited about this. I can't wait until after Christmas so this party can get started :D
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On December 24 2011 12:54 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 09:31 Forumite wrote:On December 24 2011 05:56 GreYMisT wrote: Forumite should inv me becuase we were scumbuddies in my first game :D Werewolf Mafia, what a game, so many nightkills. Werewolves shooting into Town to get the other team. We only won because noone remembered our lurking werewolf. You only won because you killed me. Poor Jackal. Will you forgive me if I use my Host-Powers to make you unkillable in this game?
If the bot is ready then we´ll start tomorrow at 00:00 GMT (+00:00), in 24 hours.
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Does this make me in or am I still on the waiting list?
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On December 24 2011 12:53 Radfield wrote:/signupThis is going to be so awesome. If anyone wants a great review of the game check out this one on BGG: linkI may have missed it in the OP, but it is 6 resistance vs 3 spies, yes? Given that we have 9 players(hard for the resistance), will we be using the "plot thickens" cards? As the first game on TL, we'll go with a normal game.
6 Town, 3 Spies, correct.
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On December 25 2011 09:48 kingjames01 wrote: Does this make me in or am I still on the waiting list? You are on the waiting list, but if one of the players drop out of the game, then I´ll sub in replacements. I will probably need replacements at some point, just don´t hold your breath.
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Even though i really want to play this game,
/out In order to make place for another player since i already have the pleasure of being in a game
/signup To be on the replacement list.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
If a team has 5 Nay votes at any one time, it is immediately rejected and the team of the next leader in line is up for the vote.
Who is the next leader in line? Is it alphabetical or by list order?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Double post.
EDIT: I guess my question is better summarized as:
Using a standard round-robin format, one among the players is designated the leader What is standard round-robin format?
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On December 25 2011 10:38 Blazinghand wrote:Double post. EDIT: I guess my question is better summarized as: Show nested quote +Using a standard round-robin format, one among the players is designated the leader What is standard round-robin format? You guys take turns being the leader, shifting every time a team has five nay votes.
I think we're going to RNG the order and RNG the first leader at the beginning of the game.
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Sweet I got in! This sounds really fun :D
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It really is such a fun game. I might even link a few good guides since there are so many new players to Resistance...
I wouldn't want the first game to be too low-level. It will still be fun but it may not be as intense.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
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Yay I'm in as well \o/
Missed nothing so far.
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Game on in three and a half hours! Joy!
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I guess as long as we're talking about London, I'd share my favorite Christmas story. Happy Christmas, gentlemen.
The Shepherd, a 30-minute spoken word story about a RAF pilot is flying home from Germany for Christmas in 1957. Fog sets in, and all radio communication is lost
http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=2179626369
gl hf!
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On December 25 2011 11:01 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 10:38 Blazinghand wrote:Double post. EDIT: I guess my question is better summarized as: Using a standard round-robin format, one among the players is designated the leader What is standard round-robin format? You guys take turns being the leader, shifting every time a team has five nay votes.
I think we're going to RNG the order and RNG the first leader at the beginning of the game.
Not really important but since I saw that I might as well ask: Are you going to leave out someone who already was leader? Let's say I'm leader d1 and pick a team: A, B ,C. 5 people vote nay and the next guy gets rnd-voted leader. Is that rnd going to be rnd out of 9 or rnd out of 8 because I can't be leader again? Also just to mention it: It's my first time with this kind of game :p
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On December 26 2011 05:29 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 11:01 prplhz wrote:On December 25 2011 10:38 Blazinghand wrote:Double post. EDIT: I guess my question is better summarized as: Using a standard round-robin format, one among the players is designated the leader What is standard round-robin format? You guys take turns being the leader, shifting every time a team has five nay votes.
I think we're going to RNG the order and RNG the first leader at the beginning of the game. Not really important but since I saw that I might as well ask: Are you going to leave out someone who already was leader? Let's say I'm leader d1 and pick a team: A, B ,C. 5 people vote nay and the next guy gets rnd-voted leader. Is that rnd going to be rnd out of 9 or rnd out of 8 because I can't be leader again?Also just to mention it: It's my first time with this kind of game :p When the game start I provide a scrambled list of the 9 players. The first one is designated as the first leader. If his team is rejected, then number 2 on the list becomes leader. Likewise if the Team is accepted, then we begin day 2 with the second player on the list as leader. After all 9 have gotten a chance to be leader, we start over with the first leader again.
The randomising is at the start of the game, afterwards it´s always the next one in line.
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Slight change to OP. You can vote for a leader before he has proposed a Team, but the team needs 5 yay-votes AFTER being proposed to be accepted. If 5 people vote yay for a Team, then one of them changing his vote, then the team will not be immediately accepted once proposed.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 26 2011 06:21 Forumite wrote: Slight change to OP. You can vote for a leader before he has proposed a Team, but the team needs 5 yay-votes AFTER being proposed to be accepted. If 5 people vote yay for a Team, then one of them changing his vote, then the team will not be immediately accepted once proposed.
This passage is currently still in the op:
8. You can vote for a leaders Team before he has become leader. If a leader has 5 yay-votes when proposing his team, the game goes to night immediately.
So this means in the following situation: Players Alex, Bart, Charles, Dick, and Eric all vote Yay on Fred. Fred then proposes a team: we immediately hit night phase.
And... Players Alex, Bart, Charles, Dick, and Eric all vote Yay on Fred. THEN, Dick changes his vote to Nay. Fred then proposes a team: we do not hit night phase, since at the time of proposal he had 4 votes, and the only time he had 5 votes he hadn't proposed a team yet.
Is this correct?
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On December 26 2011 06:43 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 06:21 Forumite wrote: Slight change to OP. You can vote for a leader before he has proposed a Team, but the team needs 5 yay-votes AFTER being proposed to be accepted. If 5 people vote yay for a Team, then one of them changing his vote, then the team will not be immediately accepted once proposed. This passage is currently still in the op: Show nested quote + 8. You can vote for a leaders Team before he has become leader. If a leader has 5 yay-votes when proposing his team, the game goes to night immediately.
So this means in the following situation: Players Alex, Bart, Charles, Dick, and Eric all vote Yay on Fred. Fred then proposes a team: we immediately hit night phase. And... Players Alex, Bart, Charles, Dick, and Eric all vote Yay on Fred. THEN, Dick changes his vote to Nay. Fred then proposes a team: we do not hit night phase, since at the time of proposal he had 4 votes, and the only time he had 5 votes he hadn't proposed a team yet. Is this correct?
Yup.
The voting and team proposal rules/commands might be a bit convoluted at first but they should become very intuitive after you've gone through the first few teams. This is a very real-timey game/setup so we did this to make it easier for you to play even when you're in different times zones and have different activity patterns.
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- Day 1 - -I suspect that we have been infiltrated by a German Spy!
-You don´t say?
Sample Role-PMs and the order of leaders is in the 3rd and 4th posts of the thread.
Post /confirm in the thread if you have received your Role-PM.
Current Deadline is in 72 hours, 23:00 GMT (+00:00), or 08:00 KST the 29th of December. If you have not decided on a team to send by then, the first mission automatically fail!
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
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aww... I guess that means I didn't get in... Good luck everyone! This is an amazing game.
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/confirm will go to bed now and start posting tomorrow
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ok checked out the new leader-order-list and it''s definatly worth an EBWOP:
Sweet radfield's leader day1 o/ I guess I'm going to be in the first mission-team because he knows I'm town \o/
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I went ahead and voted to confirm Radfield's picks because at this point it is all blind. It doesn't make any sense to shift the vote to anyone else. We need to just get started before we can get a read on anybody.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
/confirm
I'm not sure that makes sense Truth. If I pick something with all town, I want to see who votes for it and who does not. As such I would much rather people see my team before approving me.
I WILL be assigning myself on my team. I will also not be assigning either Zona or Palmar on my Day 1 team, since given that I am town, the likelyhood of one of them being mafia increases drastically(unless forumite randomized the set-up). Obviously this is all meanless to you guys, since you have no idea my alignment. However the logic should be sound.
I think I will take one player from VE, Jackal, Greymist and one player from Blazinghand, Truth and Toad. It's pretty arbitrary, but obviously there are no other metrics for me to go by right now.
Thoughts?
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I definitely think it makes sense to assign yourself to the team. I would have done the same had I gone first. After the first mission succeeds or fails though the team assignments will have to consider previous successes and failures.
I don't think the hosts will "balance" the team according to people's notoriety in mafia as this is a different game.
Here are my assumptions: 1. I don't think the host did any balancing of players. (This is supposed to be a pure logic game, imo.) and 2. Therefore nobody can justify a veto. (We don't have any information yet.)
I'm viewing people as A, B, C, not as Radfield, Zona, Palmar.
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/Confirm. I'm still not sure what I'm into in this so I'm just gonna watch for a couple of hours.
And Merry Christmas all.
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/confirm
Still getting used to typing on my first mechanical keyboard, well see how it goes...
I definitely agree that rad needs to go on the mission tonight. Also, this might be common sense, but if we succeed in a mission we should keep the team the same the next day, if there are no scum on the team then yay, and if there are they have to choose to sabotage the mission eventually. Basically we should be looking to keep the team as similar as possible, while swapping the leader into the team in the case of a failure.
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On December 26 2011 09:30 Radfield wrote: /confirm
I'm not sure that makes sense Truth. If I pick something with all town, I want to see who votes for it and who does not. As such I would much rather people see my team before approving me.
I WILL be assigning myself on my team. I will also not be assigning either Zona or Palmar on my Day 1 team, since given that I am town, the likelyhood of one of them being mafia increases drastically(unless forumite randomized the set-up). Obviously this is all meanless to you guys, since you have no idea my alignment. However the logic should be sound.
I think I will take one player from VE, Jackal, Greymist and one player from Blazinghand, Truth and Toad. It's pretty arbitrary, but obviously there are no other metrics for me to go by right now.
Thoughts?
I do agree with the fact that Truth should not be voting so early. Let's put it this way: If we really go by a true-rnd process saying the chances of getting 3/3 town are slim probably is a nice way to say it.
Also I'm claiming your groups are not arbitrary at all. At least group1 (Zona, Palmar, yourself) and group2 (Jackal, Greymist and VE) don't look arbitrary at all :p I'm pretty sure both truth and I have less games than those 6 people out of groups 1 and 2 which could make the 3rd group a newby-group but than again I never played with Blazinghand so maybe I'm wrong with that one.
But yeah, I'd like to hear a lot more from those 6 people you mentioned plus yourself and what they think about each other. Yes sending yourself makes sense but after all I'd like to be able to judge you d2 as well.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 26 2011 14:43 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 09:30 Radfield wrote: /confirm
I'm not sure that makes sense Truth. If I pick something with all town, I want to see who votes for it and who does not. As such I would much rather people see my team before approving me.
I WILL be assigning myself on my team. I will also not be assigning either Zona or Palmar on my Day 1 team, since given that I am town, the likelyhood of one of them being mafia increases drastically(unless forumite randomized the set-up). Obviously this is all meanless to you guys, since you have no idea my alignment. However the logic should be sound.
I think I will take one player from VE, Jackal, Greymist and one player from Blazinghand, Truth and Toad. It's pretty arbitrary, but obviously there are no other metrics for me to go by right now.
Thoughts?
I do agree with the fact that Truth should not be voting so early. Let's put it this way: If we really go by a true-rnd process saying the chances of getting 3/3 town are slim probably is a nice way to say it. Also I'm claiming your groups are not arbitrary at all. At least group1 (Zona, Palmar, yourself) and group2 (Jackal, Greymist and VE) don't look arbitrary at all :p I'm pretty sure both truth and I have less games than those 6 people out of groups 1 and 2 which could make the 3rd group a newby-group but than again I never played with Blazinghand so maybe I'm wrong with that one. But yeah, I'd like to hear a lot more from those 6 people you mentioned plus yourself and what they think about each other. Yes sending yourself makes sense but after all I'd like to be able to judge you d2 as well.
Assuming truly random picks, there's a (2/3) chance of picking a townsperson each time, meaning that there's a (2/3)^3 chance of getting 3 townies, or 8/27-- pretty bad.
I think it's reasonable to select yourself as part of your group. If you are town, it would be very unreasonable for you not to select yourself at this phase in the game when there have been neither successful nor unsuccessful missions yet. To yourself, you are a confirmed townie. Then you face somewhat decent odds of picking out two townspeople to come with you.
I think it's unreasonable to assume that there is 1 mafia among Zona/Palmar/Radfield. there could easily be 2 or 0. But EVEN ASSUMMING the layout is "1 mafia in Zona/Palm/Rad, 1 mafia in Jack/Grey/VE, 1 mafia in Blaze/Truth/Toad", the correct answer isn't to pick one guy from each group...
Because you, Radfield, know your own alignment. If you really think that there is 1 mafia in Zona/Palm/Rad, you should actually take one of Zona/Palm along with you! This is because you personally have the information that you're town, and can therefore say (assuming, again, that there's some distribution like that) that one of Zona/Palm is town. Therefore, you pick one of Zona/Palm, and you only have one pick left, and so you just need one solid-read town pick to create the following situation:
Team: Radfield (yourself, who is confirmed town to you), plus Zona (for example), plus someone who gives off a solid town read like, say, Blazinghand. If the mission fails, you can reasonably say "well I think this was Zona" (though others will not be able to do so). The beauty of this though is, assuming you're right about the "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad", If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
Contrast taking a team like Radfield/VE/Toad, and a mission success-- Assuming your "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad" idea is correct, this doesn't give us any info on who that was. Same with a mission failure.
So, if you really think one of Zona/Rad/Palm is mafia, and you are very sure of this due to the high relative skills of these specific players you, being Rad and knowing your own alignment, are in a unique position to form a team that grants you information-- so your current metric for forming a team is flawed.
I will not grant you a pre-emptive vote based on your ideas for acting on your reasoned assumptions.
THAT BEING SAID,
I do NOT think it it safe to say that there is one and only one mafia among zona/rad/palm. It's certainly possible, but it's also possible that Forumite was like "well I think this is a newbie game so I'm gonna stack the deck in favor of town and make a bunch of crap players mafia like that Blazinghand punk", or maybe he was like "lol man these guys gonna get rolled so hard, Zona, Rad and Palm all gonna be my mafia lololololol"
So, I also do not grant you a pre-emptive vote based on the assumptions underlying your ideas. I will wait to see the team itself.
That being said, I would not be unwilling to vote for your team once you have constructed it, should I determine it to be solid. I'm only pointing out that anyone who's thinking of pre-emptively yessing you (Truthbringer...) may want to put a wee bit more thought into it.
Just saying.
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Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D.
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Edit: Oh, game started already. Disappearing.
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On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D.
the same way you get a town read on anyone day1, look at the motives behind their posting. Granted i agree that it is not a rock solid read like on later days, but its all we have to go on at this point.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D.
It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds.
In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)".
brb 3 hours
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On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1?
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So we're not voting for Radfield but rather his choice of a team for night 1 correct?
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Right, we vote yes for his team. If we vote no the next leader is chosen. So basically yes for his team, no for the leader unless I'm mistaken.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 27 2011 03:15 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1?
I don't see why those would be mutually exclusive. In fact, I see those as the same thing. A successful mission gives is 3 probable towns, whereas a failed mission just says "well someone among these three is mafia but we don't know who ._."
So I'd say: yes, gathering d1 info by getting a successful mission is the most important.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 27 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 03:15 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1? I don't see why those would be mutually exclusive. In fact, I see those as the same thing. A successful mission gives is 3 probable towns, whereas a failed mission just says "well someone among these three is mafia but we don't know who ._." So I'd say: yes, gathering d1 info by getting a successful mission is the most important.
Well, what you were saying earlier is that if I think 1 of Zona and Palmar is scum, it makes the most sense to actually take one of those players along. That would decrease our odds of victory, but increase our information potential. Yes?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
If I select a team, can I later change my team? If yes I assume everyone will have to vote on it again. I just want to make sure I'm not locked in if I choose a team.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 27 2011 06:06 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 03:15 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1? I don't see why those would be mutually exclusive. In fact, I see those as the same thing. A successful mission gives is 3 probable towns, whereas a failed mission just says "well someone among these three is mafia but we don't know who ._." So I'd say: yes, gathering d1 info by getting a successful mission is the most important. Well, what you were saying earlier is that if I think 1 of Zona and Palmar is scum, it makes the most sense to actually take one of those players along. That would decrease our odds of victory, but increase our information potential. Yes?
Indeed. But this is only a viable tactic because you personally know that you are not scum. I'm not the current leader, so I would gain no additional information from you selecting one of Zona/Palmar to come with you, even assuming I shared your thought that 1 of Zona/Palmar/Radfield is scum, because *I* can't rule *you* out. So with my knowledge base, with your assumption of 1 of Zona/Palm/Rad being scum, I actually would not want you to pick 2 from that group, but rather, to pick me, since I myself know I am not scum, and I want to maximize our success rate.
Effectively, the leader's D1 is fundamentally different from a non-leader's D1, because the leader knows his alignment and is select the team. Since I'm currently not the leader, I think we should maximize win rate which will maximize info gained. You as the leader are not working with the same information I am, so you will have a different motivation.
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On December 27 2011 06:06 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 03:15 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1? I don't see why those would be mutually exclusive. In fact, I see those as the same thing. A successful mission gives is 3 probable towns, whereas a failed mission just says "well someone among these three is mafia but we don't know who ._." So I'd say: yes, gathering d1 info by getting a successful mission is the most important. Well, what you were saying earlier is that if I think 1 of Zona and Palmar is scum, it makes the most sense to actually take one of those players along. That would decrease our odds of victory, but increase our information potential. Yes? That's exactly my point. From what blazinghand said earlier it looks like he wants us to sacrifice d1 for information gain because if he was suggesting that if rad thinks zona or palmar are scum then he should take one of them to get clear information. However that "clear" information is only information for rad because he might know his alignment but how am I supposed to know if he's not the spy while both zona and palmar are town? So that "clear" information is really only clear information for rad (if at all) and increases the chances of being blocked d1. At the same time we could just get screwed big time if the waynie (idea = send rad + zona/palmar + waynie) turns out to be a spy. So even for rad the information isn't granted at all because he could end up thinking zona is a spy when sending zona along with him while in realitiy the 3rd guy was the spy.
To sum it up: I don't think there is anything like granted information out of d1 therefore I think we should try to minimize the chances of getting sabotaged therefore I don't like your "send zona or palmar to get clear information" at all. That's why I what blazinghand was about to suggest earlier.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 27 2011 06:16 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:06 Radfield wrote:On December 27 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 03:15 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1? I don't see why those would be mutually exclusive. In fact, I see those as the same thing. A successful mission gives is 3 probable towns, whereas a failed mission just says "well someone among these three is mafia but we don't know who ._." So I'd say: yes, gathering d1 info by getting a successful mission is the most important. Well, what you were saying earlier is that if I think 1 of Zona and Palmar is scum, it makes the most sense to actually take one of those players along. That would decrease our odds of victory, but increase our information potential. Yes? Indeed. But this is only a viable tactic because you personally know that you are not scum. I'm not the current leader, so I would gain no additional information from you selecting one of Zona/Palmar to come with you, even assuming I shared your thought that 1 of Zona/Palmar/Radfield is scum, because *I* can't rule *you* out. So with my knowledge base, with your assumption of 1 of Zona/Palm/Rad being scum, I actually would not want you to pick 2 from that group, but rather, to pick me, since I myself know I am not scum, and I want to maximize our success rate. Effectively, the leader's D1 is fundamentally different from a non-leader's D1, because the leader knows his alignment and is select the team. Since I'm currently not the leader, I think we should maximize win rate which will maximize info gained. You as the leader are not working with the same information I am, so you will have a different motivation.
In other words, I was asked "what's more important for you (blazinghand)" but this isn't the same question as "if you were radfield, and responsible for picking teams, and you were completely sure that either zona or palmar was scum, and you're not scum, what's more important for you"
that being said, have you assembled a team?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 27 2011 06:17 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:06 Radfield wrote:On December 27 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 03:15 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1? I don't see why those would be mutually exclusive. In fact, I see those as the same thing. A successful mission gives is 3 probable towns, whereas a failed mission just says "well someone among these three is mafia but we don't know who ._." So I'd say: yes, gathering d1 info by getting a successful mission is the most important. Well, what you were saying earlier is that if I think 1 of Zona and Palmar is scum, it makes the most sense to actually take one of those players along. That would decrease our odds of victory, but increase our information potential. Yes? That's exactly my point. From what blazinghand said earlier it looks like he wants us to sacrifice d1 for information gain because if he was suggesting that if rad thinks zona or palmar are scum then he should take one of them to get clear information. However that "clear" information is only information for rad because he might know his alignment but how am I supposed to know if he's not the spy while both zona and palmar are town? So that "clear" information is really only clear information for rad (if at all) and increases the chances of being blocked d1. At the same time we could just get screwed big time if the waynie (idea = send rad + zona/palmar + waynie) turns out to be a spy. So even for rad the information isn't granted at all because he could end up thinking zona is a spy when sending zona along with him while in realitiy the 3rd guy was the spy. To sum it up: I don't think there is anything like granted information out of d1 therefore I think we should try to minimize the chances of getting sabotaged therefore I don't like your "send zona or palmar to get clear information" at all. That's why I what blazinghand was about to suggest earlier.
._. we only really gain information if the mission is successful. If the mission fails all we know is "someone of these three is scum" the point of that post is that Radfield is not acting optimally given his assumptions, not "oh we should do X" because I think Radfield's assumptions are wrong anyways. I'm just pointing otu that given what he's said, it's a terrible idea to pre-vote Yay on him and you should unvote.
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On December 27 2011 06:09 Radfield wrote: If I select a team, can I later change my team? If yes I assume everyone will have to vote on it again. I just want to make sure I'm not locked in if I choose a team. Why would I vote for a team if you have the ability to switch it up later?
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@rad:
2. If you are the current leader, suggest your team in the voting thread and use the following format: ##Team: A, B, C, D, E. You may propose a team in advance, but you may not change your team once you become leader. So no, I don't think you can change your team.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 27 2011 06:23 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:09 Radfield wrote: If I select a team, can I later change my team? If yes I assume everyone will have to vote on it again. I just want to make sure I'm not locked in if I choose a team. Why would I vote for a team if you have the ability to switch it up later?
Indeed. this is why TruthBringer should unvote.
also, sorry I think I mixed up toadesttern with TB briefly.
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yeah what I was talking about was that part:
On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote:
Because you, Radfield, know your own alignment. If you really think that there is 1 mafia in Zona/Palm/Rad, you should actually take one of Zona/Palm along with you! This is because you personally have the information that you're town, and can therefore say (assuming, again, that there's some distribution like that) that one of Zona/Palm is town. Therefore, you pick one of Zona/Palm, and you only have one pick left, and so you just need one solid-read town pick to create the following situation:
You're actually saying "well given your theory is right and I was in your spot you probably should send in either Zona or Palmar as well to get information" or am I interpreting this part wrong? I can see how you criticize his theory of groups and I don't have a problem with that but what I quoted really sounds like "yeah let's send in a spy to get information".
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 27 2011 06:29 Toadesstern wrote:yeah what I was talking about was that part: Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote:
Because you, Radfield, know your own alignment. If you really think that there is 1 mafia in Zona/Palm/Rad, you should actually take one of Zona/Palm along with you! This is because you personally have the information that you're town, and can therefore say (assuming, again, that there's some distribution like that) that one of Zona/Palm is town. Therefore, you pick one of Zona/Palm, and you only have one pick left, and so you just need one solid-read town pick to create the following situation:
You're actually saying "well given your theory is right and I was in your spot you probably should send in either Zona or Palmar as well to get information" or am I interpreting this part wrong? I can see how you criticize his theory of groups and I don't have a problem with that but what I quoted really sounds like "yeah let's send in a spy to get information".
What? No, the point here is that he has information, which is that he is town, right? So he should take his other 1/3rd chance from the same group as himself, rather than taking one from the other group, assuming his assumption of thirds is correct. However, were he to field such a team, a player with the same assumptions as him (rule of thirds) and different information (ie, you are not radfield) would always vote against his team, since from their point of view he's picking 2 people from a group of 3 that contains 1 mafia-- we're working with diff info than radfield is.
I'm saying that, given a successful mission to come, if you're radfield and you operate on radfield's assumptions, picking 1 from each group is sub-optimal.
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On December 27 2011 06:09 Radfield wrote: If I select a team, can I later change my team? If yes I assume everyone will have to vote on it again. I just want to make sure I'm not locked in if I choose a team. No, if you are the leader and you have a team then you cannot change that, unless that team is None but then you don't really have a team If you guys want another team you have to nayvote the current team and go with the next leader who can then pick a new team.
That is, as long as Radfield is leader and his team is None he can propose a team and that team will be what is sent on mission. If Radfield proposes a team right now then that will be the team you guys are voting to send away on a mission, and he cannot change that team, only propose another team for next time he is leader.
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But zona or palmar are not a 1/3 chance given his information + theory are right. If rad's town and either palmar or zona are mafia than it's a 50% chance of sending mafia instead of the usual 1/3 which is increasing the chances of failure. Also given that none of those 2 started posting yet there's very little to analyze to get a better than average pick.
Let's assume rad really is town. In that case he either choses to pick one out of each group which would be (1/1) * (2/3) * (2/3) = 4/9 chance of getting town only. 1/1 because he knows he is town and does not have to pick someone from group1. 2/3 because there's 2 townies and 1 mafia per group (if his theory is right).
If he however picks one from group1 + a waynie it's going to be (1/1) * (1/2) * (4/6) = 4/12 chances of getting town only. So picking zona or palmar is decreasing the chances of success given rad really is town and his groups/theory is right.
Sure the 2nd one will have a better informationgain but it's more likely to be sabotaged.
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/confirm
As far as I can tell, the ideal team for spies is one with just a single spy on it, then there's no guessing necessary for that spy, he/she can just sabotage. I suppose it's possible for the spy to hold back (for wifom?) but given that there's only 5 missions total, I don't think it's worth it...at least at this level of play.
No spies is ideal, we can chalk up one of the three necessary successes, and repeat the team in hopes that it was really a no-spy team.
Two (or three!) spies on a mission isn't actually that bad for us, either - because the spies either have to guess and possibly result in multiple sabotaging the same mission (or possibly allow a successful mission through), or they have to try to coordinate publicly, which we should have a chance of spotting.
If a leader is town and without information, there's two choices - include self int he team, or don't. Both choices actually provide the same chance of 1 spy on the mission...over half. If the town leader includes him/herself, the chances are: 0 spies: 0.357142857143 chance 1 spies: 0.535714285714 chance 2 spies: 0.107142857143 chance Which doesn't look that good, honestly.
But if the town excludes him/herself, the chances are: 0 spies: 0.178571428571 chance 1 spies: 0.535714285714 chance 2 spies: 0.267857142857 chance 3 spies: 0.0178571428571 chance Which has a further reduced chance of 0 spies, so I guess including oneself as a town leader is better.
So I agree that Radfield should include himself on the team.
However, the other factor in the game is that a spy could be the leader - and then this person could pretty much do whatever the heck he/she wanted. 1 spy on the team? Done. Or maybe 2 spies on the team while trying to subtly tell the other spy not to sabotage? Dunno. On day 1 I doubt we can really tell with confidence if the leader is a spy or not, so I believe that Radfield should be the one to pick. On later days we may want to reject picks from suspected spy leaders.
Day 1, we have a 33% chance of a spy leader, and even if we get a town leader, half the time will still result in the ideal team for spies to sabotage...so we really need to analyze later in the game.
I don't like arguments that are based on hosts assigning and balancing teams by player reputation...we have no idea if this is actually happening (I almost never do this myself), and even if it was happening, this kind of "evidence" is rather unreliable.
To be honest I wish I could just push Radfield to RNG the other two members, but there's no way he can decisively prove to us that he actually did so... So I guess these arguments about who to pick based on such flimsy arguments should take place Day 1.
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I'll read this tomorrow.
Anyone trying to communicate anything that resembles spy strategies is a spy, don't talk about it.
It might be worth it to try to put the three scummiest people on the first mission. If you can't understand why, please don't talk about it.
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Hrm. Okay, because of part of what I posted, now I think it's a bad idea to include me in the mission. I will vote against a team that includes me.
Radfield, I believe I see the reason behind Palmar's suggestion for team-picking, so consider this option if you think it through and also see the rationale.
However, I don't like that he's basically declaring his desire not to contribute today, yet implies that he'll examine what we contribute today. Unless the ideal strategy is to not say anything of importance Day 1...but he should have said that specifically if he believed it.
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blazinghand and I am the only ones really discussing at all in this thread until now and tbh it's only math You two guys (zona and palmar) did your first posts right now and Rad is not posting at all while I still have to decide not only if I like the two guys he picks but also if I want a mission that involvs himself. Rads "group 2" didn't post at all. VE, Jackal and Greymist are all sitting on basicly nothing right now...
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On December 27 2011 07:12 Toadesstern wrote:blazinghand and I am the only ones really discussing at all in this thread until now and tbh it's only math You two guys (zona and palmar) did your first posts right now and Rad is not posting at all while I still have to decide not only if I like the two guys he picks but also if I want a mission that involvs himself. Rads "group 2" didn't post at all. VE, Jackal and Greymist are all sitting on basicly nothing right now...
I've posted....
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Im sure most of us are busy with post-christmas stuffs. Personally I think that until radfield puts forth his team, not much can be said. I'll wit till he does so, but i hope that at least happens in the next couple of hours so we can have time to comment on it.
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I'll unvote.
I am still skeptical that I'll get a read on anyone on day 1. I am thinking of this is as more of a logic game than a behavioral analysis game, but on the small chance I can get a tell from someone, I'll withhold my vote at least until Radfield comes up with his team.
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On December 27 2011 07:26 GreYMisT wrote: Im sure most of us are busy with post-christmas stuffs. Personally I think that until radfield puts forth his team, not much can be said. I'll wit till he does so, but i hope that at least happens in the next couple of hours so we can have time to comment on it.
yeah I know that's the reason I'm only mentioning it and I'm not really calling someone out because of it. Because as you said post christmas stuff atm and without radfield posting there's very little we can talk about. I know you posted but it's just not very much to go with right now. I've got a feeling radfield doesn't want to post a lot right now so he can judge people better but that's making it hard for me to judge him. We're 24 hours in the game and I don't have a slight clue what the first team might be like. I know this is a 72 hours day but I'd like to not have to vote yay on radfields team simply because he proposes his team on the last day...
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
OK, I'm just going to propose a team then.
Myself Palmar Blazinghand
It obviously goes against my initial post, but that first post was really just to get things kicking.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
What's your reasoning for this team? You note it goes against your initial reasoning but you don't offer any new reasoning.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
yay or nay.
Here is my reasoning.
Palmar's only post, while brief, is an important piece of advice and not one I had even considered.
Blazinghand seems townish and willing to reason out and his posting is sound.
I know myself to be town. Honestly, any Day 1 leader who DID NOT put themselves into the first mission would be auto-scum as far as I can tell. It would be blatantly playing against your win-con. In fact, it seems like leaders at every stage of mission will be putting themselves in. No?
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Not necessarily. If we succeed on night 2, regardless of who the leader is on day 3, he should do the same squad on night 3 as succeeded on night 2.
Otherwise though, yes, I agree the leader should put himself in the squad.
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I have once again voted to accept Radfield's picks. Palmar and blazinghand are no more nor no less suspicious to me than anyone else.
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I don't really agree with blazinghand and palmar is just a null for me...
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I agree with palmar, blazinghand is a null to me as well, but I have no reason to disagree with these picks as of right now.
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I'm okay with Radfield's suggestions, and have voted thusly.
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Well as mentioned, blazinghand is one of the two people I'd not like to send on a mission right now so it's a nay for me
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 27 2011 12:51 Toadesstern wrote: Well as mentioned, blazinghand is one of the two people I'd not like to send on a mission right now so it's a nay for me
why not?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 27 2011 13:00 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 12:51 Toadesstern wrote: Well as mentioned, blazinghand is one of the two people I'd not like to send on a mission right now so it's a nay for me why not?
I think it's fairly clear-- I've been talking a lot. I'm not actually sure "talking a lot on d1" is a town move in this game. Contrast "person who talks a lot", who might be slipping messages or hints to his scum alies (remember no mafia QT this game) and someone who straight-up hasn't been talking much at all, and therefore is likely town.
I will be voting Nay on this team because I'm suspicious of Radfield.
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On December 27 2011 13:00 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 12:51 Toadesstern wrote: Well as mentioned, blazinghand is one of the two people I'd not like to send on a mission right now so it's a nay for me why not?
you said what he said sounds townish and he's open for discussion. I still think he contradicted himself saying (all under the assumption that your group theory is right and you really are town) tha we should send palmar or zona as well because.
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oh and no the fact that you're talking a lot is not the reason I voted nay because I'm talking quite a lot as well and yeah seems like noone is talking at all o.O
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 27 2011 13:52 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 13:00 Radfield wrote:On December 27 2011 12:51 Toadesstern wrote: Well as mentioned, blazinghand is one of the two people I'd not like to send on a mission right now so it's a nay for me why not? you said what he said sounds townish and he's open for discussion. I still think he contradicted himself saying (all under the assumption that your group theory is right and you really are town) tha we should send palmar or zona as well because. ?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 27 2011 13:53 Toadesstern wrote: oh and no the fact that you're talking a lot is not the reason I voted nay because I'm talking quite a lot as well and yeah seems like noone is talking at all o.O
you're talking a lot and not contributing much. It sounds to me like you could be slipping messages to your mafia allies here.
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On December 27 2011 13:52 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 13:00 Radfield wrote:On December 27 2011 12:51 Toadesstern wrote: Well as mentioned, blazinghand is one of the two people I'd not like to send on a mission right now so it's a nay for me why not? you said what he said sounds townish and he's open for discussion. I still think he contradicted himself saying (all under the assumption that your group theory is right and you really are town) tha we should send palmar or zona as well because. EBWOP shouldn't post so late in the morning... something went missing when copy & pasting :p
...because that's according to increase our chances of either a successfull mission or increases the informationgain. To be honest I still haven't quite understood what he wanted to say with his first big post.
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@Radfield, even though you have proposed the team, you still have to vote.
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On December 27 2011 13:54 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 13:53 Toadesstern wrote: oh and no the fact that you're talking a lot is not the reason I voted nay because I'm talking quite a lot as well and yeah seems like noone is talking at all o.O you're talking a lot and not contributing much. It sounds to me like you could be slipping messages to your mafia allies here.
I'm talking a lot without contributing? Most of my posts actually still are about your first big post because I still think you got something wrong there. So yeah I'm critizing you instead of contributing myself but atm noone is really contributing because noone is talking except for the two of us and we're already discussing each other. Nothing more to discuss right now because again. Everyone else posted so little that they're nulls for me.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 27 2011 13:59 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 13:54 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 13:53 Toadesstern wrote: oh and no the fact that you're talking a lot is not the reason I voted nay because I'm talking quite a lot as well and yeah seems like noone is talking at all o.O you're talking a lot and not contributing much. It sounds to me like you could be slipping messages to your mafia allies here. I'm talking a lot without contributing? Most of my posts actually still are about your first big post because I still think you got something wrong there. So yeah I'm critizing you instead of contributing myself but atm noone is really contributing because noone is talking except for the two of us and we're already discussing each other. Nothing more to discuss right now because again. Everyone else posted so little that they're nulls for me.
I think you should try to contribute/post etc to encourage others to do the same. Perhaps the solution to "nobody else has contributed, so the town is having trouble forming reads" isn't "well hey I better not contribute you guys" but rather "hmm... maybe the solution here is to contribute."
Like, that would actually help.
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Blazing why are you suspicious of radfield? Do you find his team displeasurable?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 27 2011 14:06 GreYMisT wrote: Blazing why are you suspicious of radfield? Do you find his team displeasurable?
I find the fact that it includes me to be excellent. I find the way he has presented a series of arguments, not used them, claiming they were "just to start discussion", then presented a new team WITH NO JUSTIFICATION UNTIL PRESSURED, is scummy. I think something is up. I'm suspicious enough that I'm willing to throw him out and see what the next guy has to offer.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
P.S.: although Rad's team has 3 votes, he hasn't voted for it yet, meaning that the next non-Radfield person who votes for it will let him vote for it to make it 5. Think carefully about the way this guy has presented his case and his picks before you vote.
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I haven't voted either and I know I'm town.
I'm declaring the intention of voting in favor of Rad's team, since Radfield himself can hammer it I'm going to give people a few hours to discuss.
I see no real problem with Radfield, it doesn't actually matter if he's scum or town, the fact that he presented a team including himself simply shows he's not dumb, it tells us nothing about his alignment. Any town player would always present a team with themselves in it, and by extension scum has to do it too.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 27 2011 14:15 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 14:06 GreYMisT wrote: Blazing why are you suspicious of radfield? Do you find his team displeasurable? I find the fact that it includes me to be excellent. I find the way he has presented a series of arguments, not used them, claiming they were "just to start discussion", then presented a new team WITH NO JUSTIFICATION UNTIL PRESSURED, is scummy. I think something is up. I'm suspicious enough that I'm willing to throw him out and see what the next guy has to offer.
Actually I typed up and posted my reasons without seeing that you had asked me a question in between. However my post does look remarkably like a response to your post.
On December 27 2011 13:58 TruthBringer wrote: @Radfield, even though you have proposed the team, you still have to vote.
Thanks.
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Voted Radfield's team. We can't do anything until we do something.
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Team Accepted!
A team consisting of Radfield, Palmar and Blazinghand has been accepted for this mission!
Final vote count: Yays: TruthBringer GreYMisT VisceraEyes Radfield Jackal58 Nays: Toadesstern Blazinghand
Please send in your night actions to Forumite and prplhz
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- Night 1 - - Radfield, it´s dangerous to go alone! Here, take these!
The night ends in 29 hours, at 23:00 GMT (+00:00), or 08:00 KST 29th of December.
Day 2 will begin with Truthbringer as leader.
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- Day 2 -Mission Failure! An army fights on its stomach, but in the quiet war reigning in nighttime Paris, every belly was full. A decisive strike had been planned against the local bakery, cutting off the occupying german soldiers from their essential sandwishes and snacks, and crushing their morale in one fell strike. Three valiant soldiers of La Resistance set out late one evening, broke into the bakery at the corner and lit the croissants on fire, but they had barely hid themselves in the shrubbery across the street when they heard, heading right for them, sirens... Someone had alerted the fire department, and what would have been a weathy conflagration ended up as a tragic macaron murder. The camaraderie with which the three had set out that evening was gone, and they walked back to report in a sugary cloud of suspicion...
Mission 1 suffered one sabotage attempt, and failed!
Special Announcement! This and all future Dayphases extended by 24 hours!
Mission 2 require 4 participants!
Truthbringer is the first leader.
The day ends in 4 full days, or 96 hours, at 23:00 GMT (+00:00), or 08:00 KST the 2nd of January, 2011.
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On December 27 2011 14:21 Blazinghand wrote: P.S.: although Rad's team has 3 votes, he hasn't voted for it yet, meaning that the next non-Radfield person who votes for it will let him vote for it to make it 5. Think carefully about the way this guy has presented his case and his picks before you vote.
FoS Blazinghand
Radfield has been catching a lot of flak for the way he chose his initial team...but the thing is, nothing can happen until we have some information, which we have now.
I liked Palmar's post about people discussing Spy strategy, and I liked Radfield's posting d1...so that leaves me with Blazinghand. And he made this post just before the day ended. Like, if you're town and you're on the team, why would you want to cast suspicion on who picked you?
I will insta-nay any team that includes Blazinghand.
Smooches.
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I agree with this viscera. I think the best way for us to move forward now that we know that at least one of rad, palmar, and blazing is scum is to add the current leader, trade out blazinghand, and add someone else into the mix. I am not sure who i would recommend other than myself. perhaps viscera or toad.
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what about switching multiple people? If I had to take a guess I'd also say it's blazinghand but it's nothing clear at all. I was leaning lightly scum on him while palmar and rad both where nulls for me. And now we know that one of those is scum. Obviously blazinghand is the first I'd swap out too but I'm not going to say that I think palmar and / or rad are town because again, they're both just nulls for me on a failed mission.
It's kind of a problem for me right now. I don't really want palmar nor rad on a mission as well because I'm not convinced they're town. However swapping multiple people will give us WAY less information because we can't make connections between d1 and d2
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I think the next day team should not inclide anyone from the day one team since one person from the day one team is scum I will auto nay any vote that includes members of the day one team besides myself.it has been obvious to me that ras is scum in the way he presented and argued his team. That being said none of you guys know my aligment so yhe optimal strat for anyone not sent on last night's mission is to vote nay on any team containing members from that.
Also anyone who believes VE that i am more suspicious for my post against the team "near the end of the day" is a moron or scum or both. I was pointing out the danger of a Radfield quickhammer. The day was only close to the end because some guys voted yes after my post, not due to the time limitation. Believe it or not i fingered Rad as scum and I stand by that read and my nay vote.
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On December 29 2011 09:18 Blazinghand wrote: Also anyone who believes VE that i am more suspicious for my post against the team "near the end of the day" is a moron or scum or both. I was pointing out the danger of a Radfield quickhammer. The day was only close to the end because some guys voted yes after my post, not due to the time limitation. Believe it or not i fingered Rad as scum and I stand by that read and my nay vote.
Actually I got to agree with Greymist on the VE matter. Imo there's basicly 2 options for a pro-town-looking post. Either he's trolling and doing crazy shit that might look protown while in reality people should call him out for that stuff. Zhat's what he does when he's scum, because of his meta. At least that's what he did last game. Or he's not trolling and trying to be useful. I don't see him trolling therefor I got to agree with Greymist.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Ps i think VE is a fool not a knave but I may revise that opinion.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 09:23 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 09:18 Blazinghand wrote: Also anyone who believes VE that i am more suspicious for my post against the team "near the end of the day" is a moron or scum or both. I was pointing out the danger of a Radfield quickhammer. The day was only close to the end because some guys voted yes after my post, not due to the time limitation. Believe it or not i fingered Rad as scum and I stand by that read and my nay vote. Actually I got to agree with Greymist on the VE matter. Imo there's basicly 2 options for a pro-town-looking post. Either he's trolling and doing crazy shit that might look protown while in reality people should call him out for that stuff. Zhat's what he does when he's scum, because of his meta. At least that's what he did last game. Or he's not trolling and trying to be useful. I don't see him trolling therefor I got to agree with Greymist.
So you're claiming that VE is trying to look town? I literally don't undrstand what you're saying here. Is he not bei g helpful on purpose therefore hes town?
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Oh I'm a fool? Because I find you suspicious? Please. Prove me wrong instead of insulting me dude.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 09:31 VisceraEyes wrote: Oh I'm a fool? Because I find you suspicious? Please. Prove me wrong instead of insulting me dude.
Um no youre a fool because i didnt make that post close to a deadline... imade that post and the only reason tje dau emded was voting not time. That being said i revising my opi.ion of you from fool to knave
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No trickery was intended BH, I simply meant it was one of the last contentful posts before the day ended, not that it was timed close to the end of the day. Just a misunderstanding, that.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 09:42 VisceraEyes wrote: No trickery was intended BH, I simply meant it was one of the last contentful posts before the day ended, not that it was timed close to the end of the day. Just a misunderstanding, that.
Oh really? My explanation there was just a repetition of whT i had previously said. The facr of the matter is youveother ognored or pretended to overlook my previous post, and only now thst your trickery is laid bare for a aecond time do you back down. Spy.
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/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.)
Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy.
Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of you being town.
But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms.
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On December 29 2011 09:27 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 09:23 Toadesstern wrote:On December 29 2011 09:18 Blazinghand wrote: Also anyone who believes VE that i am more suspicious for my post against the team "near the end of the day" is a moron or scum or both. I was pointing out the danger of a Radfield quickhammer. The day was only close to the end because some guys voted yes after my post, not due to the time limitation. Believe it or not i fingered Rad as scum and I stand by that read and my nay vote. Actually I got to agree with Greymist on the VE matter. Imo there's basicly 2 options for a pro-town-looking post. Either he's trolling and doing crazy shit that might look protown while in reality people should call him out for that stuff. Zhat's what he does when he's scum, because of his meta. At least that's what he did last game. Or he's not trolling and trying to be useful. I don't see him trolling therefor I got to agree with Greymist. So you're claiming that VE is trying to look town? I literally don't undrstand what you're saying here. Is he not bei g helpful on purpose therefore hes town?
I'm claiming that he looks to be honestly trying to be helpful. If you think he's not helpful that's not even my point because what matters to me is that it's not looking like his usual mafia-trolls that are just weird stuff while the only reason he's not getting fos'ed for that kind of stuff is his meta. This looks "normal" to me => town
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SPECULATION TIME!!!
Is it possible that more than one spy was sent on last night's mission?
My guess is no, because only one sabotage attempt was made. Because there's no out-of-thread communication, spies aren't going to assume their buddies are going to sabotage (if they wanna win anyway,) and because all their communications happen inside the thread, we have to assume that only one spy was sent last night.
Anyone have thoughts on this matter?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 09:55 VisceraEyes wrote:/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.) Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy. Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of yo being town. But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms.
Let me refer you to my previous post... which it seems you still have not read. Am i town? Yes. I like teams with me on them and will vote yay on them... unless of course they include obvious sxum like Radfield. I made a read and made a call. It's a vote i stand by.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Man why is it suspicious to make a good read and act on it I ask you
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On December 29 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 09:55 VisceraEyes wrote:/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.) Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy. Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of yo being town. But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms. Let me refer you to my previous post... which it seems you still have not read. Am i town? Yes. I like teams with me on them and will vote yay on them... unless of course they include obvious sxum like Radfield. I made a read and made a call. It's a vote i stand by.
Radfield is by no means obvious scum. He may be obvious to you now because your mission failed N1, but at the time all he had done was post his team and given the reasoning behind it. You're reaching. Yes, I've read your post, please stop insinuating that I didn't.
I'm done with this debate, I've given my thoughts on you and I consider the matter to be closed. All you continuing to antagonize me serves to do is make you more suspicious to me.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Like imagine the inverse-- i think radfield is scum but i vote yes on a team including him .. that makes no sense at all. Given my reads and my knowledge i made the right call. I am severely dissapointed that others did not do the same.
That being said, take a look at Radfield's voting pattern. He was trying to set up abquickhammer and didnt justify his team until called out. I would recommend swapping him out for sire tonight for these reasons.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 10:13 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 09:55 VisceraEyes wrote:/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.) Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy. Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of yo being town. But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms. Let me refer you to my previous post... which it seems you still have not read. Am i town? Yes. I like teams with me on them and will vote yay on them... unless of course they include obvious sxum like Radfield. I made a read and made a call. It's a vote i stand by. Radfield is by no means obvious scum. He may be obvious to you now because your mission failed N1, but at the time all he had done was post his team and given the reasoning behind it. You're reaching. Yes, I've read your post, please stop insinuating that I didn't. I'm done with this debate, I've given my thoughts on you and I consider the matter to be closed. All you continuing to antagonize me serves to do is make you more suspicious to me.
Im notbtrying to convince you. Youbare scum. Thebpeople whose votes matter will seebthis convo and understand the truth. I klmade the right call. The matter wouldnt be closed if you were town because you would provide oegitimate arguments... ever. Defend yourself!
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Ok. At a keyboard now. Here's my main point-- Radfield made his team based not at all on his original metrics (flaws though they were). He then posted his team without any justification. He provided some after being called out on it, but only after the fact. He didn't vote for his own team, possibly setting up for a quickhammer situation, which shuts down debate and prevents us from gathering more information for vital d1 reads.
Then the mission failed.
I think that Radfield needs to be swapped out-- and that's my case.
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On December 29 2011 10:01 VisceraEyes wrote: SPECULATION TIME!!!
Is it possible that more than one spy was sent on last night's mission?
My guess is no, because only one sabotage attempt was made. Because there's no out-of-thread communication, spies aren't going to assume their buddies are going to sabotage (if they wanna win anyway,) and because all their communications happen inside the thread, we have to assume that only one spy was sent last night.
Anyone have thoughts on this matter?
well that's kind of what palmar was talking about. thoughts about this is talking about spy strategy. That could very well be spies breadcrumbing each other because they at least will know where to look at. So I'd say everyone think for themselves on that matter :p
Oh and @blazinghand: I actually didn't see your PS post earlier because I was in a rush typing. Looks like we both got the same idea about VE and didn't understand each other :D
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I agree with Toad that talking about mafia strategy is a poor idea. What are your thoughts on Radfield? Mafia? Town? Undetermined?
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On December 29 2011 10:43 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 10:01 VisceraEyes wrote: SPECULATION TIME!!!
Is it possible that more than one spy was sent on last night's mission?
My guess is no, because only one sabotage attempt was made. Because there's no out-of-thread communication, spies aren't going to assume their buddies are going to sabotage (if they wanna win anyway,) and because all their communications happen inside the thread, we have to assume that only one spy was sent last night.
Anyone have thoughts on this matter? well that's kind of what palmar was talking about. thoughts about this is talking about spy strategy. That could very well be spies breadcrumbing each other because they at least will know where to look at. So I'd say everyone think for themselves on that matter :p Oh and @blazinghand: I actually didn't see your PS post earlier because I was in a rush typing. Looks like we both got the same idea about VE and didn't understand each other :D
Wait a second...the bolded statement seems to imply that you agree with Blaze that I'm SPAI, but all your previous posts seem to indicate that you think I'm NOT SPAI. Please clarify.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 10:50 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 10:43 Toadesstern wrote:On December 29 2011 10:01 VisceraEyes wrote: SPECULATION TIME!!!
Is it possible that more than one spy was sent on last night's mission?
My guess is no, because only one sabotage attempt was made. Because there's no out-of-thread communication, spies aren't going to assume their buddies are going to sabotage (if they wanna win anyway,) and because all their communications happen inside the thread, we have to assume that only one spy was sent last night.
Anyone have thoughts on this matter? well that's kind of what palmar was talking about. thoughts about this is talking about spy strategy. That could very well be spies breadcrumbing each other because they at least will know where to look at. So I'd say everyone think for themselves on that matter :p Oh and @blazinghand: I actually didn't see your PS post earlier because I was in a rush typing. Looks like we both got the same idea about VE and didn't understand each other :D Wait a second...the bolded statement seems to imply that you agree with Blaze that I'm SPAI, but all your previous posts seem to indicate that you think I'm NOT SPAI. Please clarify. ._. another case of VE not reading my posts? The PS post was the one in which I indicated you were not a knave, but rather, a fool.
Aside: Zona hasn't posted yet. Is he MIA or was this a planned holiday AFK?
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On December 29 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 09:55 VisceraEyes wrote:/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.) Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy. Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of yo being town. But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms. Let me refer you to my previous post... which it seems you still have not read. Am i town? Yes. I like teams with me on them and will vote yay on them... unless of course they include obvious sxum like Radfield. I made a read and made a call. It's a vote i stand by.
wait, did you not just say you will vote nay for any team with the previous night's members....and then just said you will vote yay for teams with you on them?
Also why would we be worried about a quickhammer on a day1 team. we have almost 0 info on teams day one as this is a game of logic. we have to send someone, and rad's picks made sense.
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Why Zona in particular Blaze? Only 4 people in the game HAVE posted so far, were you expecting to hear from Zona early or something?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 11:11 VisceraEyes wrote: Why Zona in particular Blaze? Only 4 people in the game HAVE posted so far, were you expecting to hear from Zona early or something? Hm, good point. What's the deal with all these AFK people?
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Zona has posted, dont you people read?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 11:10 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 09:55 VisceraEyes wrote:/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.) Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy. Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of yo being town. But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms. Let me refer you to my previous post... which it seems you still have not read. Am i town? Yes. I like teams with me on them and will vote yay on them... unless of course they include obvious sxum like Radfield. I made a read and made a call. It's a vote i stand by. wait, did you not just say you will vote nay for any team with the previous night's members....and then just said you will vote yay for teams with you on them? Also why would we be worried about a quickhammer on a day1 team. we have almost 0 info on teams day one as this is a game of logic. we have to send someone, and rad's picks made sense.
?? I will vote nay for teams with the previous nights members who aren't me. ._. Also, I will vote yay for teams with me on them. However, as always, this is subject to things like "obvious scum on a team" which I will vote nay for, etc.
The fact of the matter is, the quickhammer on the day 1 team is the reason we have so little info now re: reads on people and their reasoning and post history. Do you really think that there's no way to make a read day 1? I disagree. I made a read, and I was right. The fact of the matter is, a quickhammer on day 1 reduced our information and our histories of people's posting here on day 2.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 11:15 GreYMisT wrote: Zona has posted, dont you people read?
OH LOL YOU'RE right. It just feels sort of non-postey I guess. Can someone make a list of filters or something.
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On December 29 2011 11:17 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:10 GreYMisT wrote:On December 29 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 09:55 VisceraEyes wrote:/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.) Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy. Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of yo being town. But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms. Let me refer you to my previous post... which it seems you still have not read. Am i town? Yes. I like teams with me on them and will vote yay on them... unless of course they include obvious sxum like Radfield. I made a read and made a call. It's a vote i stand by. wait, did you not just say you will vote nay for any team with the previous night's members....and then just said you will vote yay for teams with you on them? Also why would we be worried about a quickhammer on a day1 team. we have almost 0 info on teams day one as this is a game of logic. we have to send someone, and rad's picks made sense. ?? I will vote nay for teams with the previous nights members who aren't me. ._. Also, I will vote yay for teams with me on them. However, as always, this is subject to things like "obvious scum on a team" which I will vote nay for, etc. The fact of the matter is, the quickhammer on the day 1 team is the reason we have so little info now re: reads on people and their reasoning and post history. Do you really think that there's no way to make a read day 1? I disagree. I made a read, and I was right. The fact of the matter is, a quickhammer on day 1 reduced our information and our histories of people's posting here on day 2.
how were you right? that radfield is for sure scum? I'm afraid I must not be privy to the same information that you are.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 11:27 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:17 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 11:10 GreYMisT wrote:On December 29 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 09:55 VisceraEyes wrote:/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.) Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy. Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of yo being town. But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms. Let me refer you to my previous post... which it seems you still have not read. Am i town? Yes. I like teams with me on them and will vote yay on them... unless of course they include obvious sxum like Radfield. I made a read and made a call. It's a vote i stand by. wait, did you not just say you will vote nay for any team with the previous night's members....and then just said you will vote yay for teams with you on them? Also why would we be worried about a quickhammer on a day1 team. we have almost 0 info on teams day one as this is a game of logic. we have to send someone, and rad's picks made sense. ?? I will vote nay for teams with the previous nights members who aren't me. ._. Also, I will vote yay for teams with me on them. However, as always, this is subject to things like "obvious scum on a team" which I will vote nay for, etc. The fact of the matter is, the quickhammer on the day 1 team is the reason we have so little info now re: reads on people and their reasoning and post history. Do you really think that there's no way to make a read day 1? I disagree. I made a read, and I was right. The fact of the matter is, a quickhammer on day 1 reduced our information and our histories of people's posting here on day 2. how were you right? that radfield is for sure scum? I'm afraid I must not be privy to the same information that you are.
What? I voted Nay on the team. Radfield was scummy... and then the mission failed. At the very least, from my personal view, you have to admit-- if I'm town, I'm a fucking G. I'm da man. I called it like I saw it and I was right.
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On December 29 2011 11:29 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:27 GreYMisT wrote:On December 29 2011 11:17 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 11:10 GreYMisT wrote:On December 29 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 09:55 VisceraEyes wrote:/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.) Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy. Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of yo being town. But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms. Let me refer you to my previous post... which it seems you still have not read. Am i town? Yes. I like teams with me on them and will vote yay on them... unless of course they include obvious sxum like Radfield. I made a read and made a call. It's a vote i stand by. wait, did you not just say you will vote nay for any team with the previous night's members....and then just said you will vote yay for teams with you on them? Also why would we be worried about a quickhammer on a day1 team. we have almost 0 info on teams day one as this is a game of logic. we have to send someone, and rad's picks made sense. ?? I will vote nay for teams with the previous nights members who aren't me. ._. Also, I will vote yay for teams with me on them. However, as always, this is subject to things like "obvious scum on a team" which I will vote nay for, etc. The fact of the matter is, the quickhammer on the day 1 team is the reason we have so little info now re: reads on people and their reasoning and post history. Do you really think that there's no way to make a read day 1? I disagree. I made a read, and I was right. The fact of the matter is, a quickhammer on day 1 reduced our information and our histories of people's posting here on day 2. how were you right? that radfield is for sure scum? I'm afraid I must not be privy to the same information that you are. What? I voted Nay on the team. Radfield was scummy... and then the mission failed. At the very least, from my personal view, you have to admit-- if I'm town, I'm a fucking G. I'm da man. I called it like I saw it and I was right.
If your town you shouldnt worry about how this is making you look. Instead you are...interesting
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 11:31 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:29 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 11:27 GreYMisT wrote:On December 29 2011 11:17 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 11:10 GreYMisT wrote:On December 29 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 09:55 VisceraEyes wrote:/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.) Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy. Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of yo being town. But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms. Let me refer you to my previous post... which it seems you still have not read. Am i town? Yes. I like teams with me on them and will vote yay on them... unless of course they include obvious sxum like Radfield. I made a read and made a call. It's a vote i stand by. wait, did you not just say you will vote nay for any team with the previous night's members....and then just said you will vote yay for teams with you on them? Also why would we be worried about a quickhammer on a day1 team. we have almost 0 info on teams day one as this is a game of logic. we have to send someone, and rad's picks made sense. ?? I will vote nay for teams with the previous nights members who aren't me. ._. Also, I will vote yay for teams with me on them. However, as always, this is subject to things like "obvious scum on a team" which I will vote nay for, etc. The fact of the matter is, the quickhammer on the day 1 team is the reason we have so little info now re: reads on people and their reasoning and post history. Do you really think that there's no way to make a read day 1? I disagree. I made a read, and I was right. The fact of the matter is, a quickhammer on day 1 reduced our information and our histories of people's posting here on day 2. how were you right? that radfield is for sure scum? I'm afraid I must not be privy to the same information that you are. What? I voted Nay on the team. Radfield was scummy... and then the mission failed. At the very least, from my personal view, you have to admit-- if I'm town, I'm a fucking G. I'm da man. I called it like I saw it and I was right. If your town you shouldnt worry about how this is making you look. Instead you are...interesting
?? If I'm town I should totally worry because IF I AM THE ONE WHO GETS REPLACED WE LOSE ANOTHER MISSION. are you kidding me? I should try as hard as I can to make sure the other dudes get replaced instead of me... since I know the traitor is one of them two. If I'm town, it is exigent that I try as hard as possible to look good. ._. Have you even thought this through?
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On December 29 2011 10:50 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 10:43 Toadesstern wrote:On December 29 2011 10:01 VisceraEyes wrote: SPECULATION TIME!!!
Is it possible that more than one spy was sent on last night's mission?
My guess is no, because only one sabotage attempt was made. Because there's no out-of-thread communication, spies aren't going to assume their buddies are going to sabotage (if they wanna win anyway,) and because all their communications happen inside the thread, we have to assume that only one spy was sent last night.
Anyone have thoughts on this matter? well that's kind of what palmar was talking about. thoughts about this is talking about spy strategy. That could very well be spies breadcrumbing each other because they at least will know where to look at. So I'd say everyone think for themselves on that matter :p Oh and @blazinghand: I actually didn't see your PS post earlier because I was in a rush typing. Looks like we both got the same idea about VE and didn't understand each other :D Wait a second...the bolded statement seems to imply that you agree with Blaze that I'm SPAI, but all your previous posts seem to indicate that you think I'm NOT SPAI. Please clarify.
what blazinghand said. Just in case you want me to mention it as well after he already posted it.
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On December 29 2011 11:32 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:31 GreYMisT wrote:On December 29 2011 11:29 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 11:27 GreYMisT wrote:On December 29 2011 11:17 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 11:10 GreYMisT wrote:On December 29 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 09:55 VisceraEyes wrote:/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.) Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy. Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of yo being town. But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms. Let me refer you to my previous post... which it seems you still have not read. Am i town? Yes. I like teams with me on them and will vote yay on them... unless of course they include obvious sxum like Radfield. I made a read and made a call. It's a vote i stand by. wait, did you not just say you will vote nay for any team with the previous night's members....and then just said you will vote yay for teams with you on them? Also why would we be worried about a quickhammer on a day1 team. we have almost 0 info on teams day one as this is a game of logic. we have to send someone, and rad's picks made sense. ?? I will vote nay for teams with the previous nights members who aren't me. ._. Also, I will vote yay for teams with me on them. However, as always, this is subject to things like "obvious scum on a team" which I will vote nay for, etc. The fact of the matter is, the quickhammer on the day 1 team is the reason we have so little info now re: reads on people and their reasoning and post history. Do you really think that there's no way to make a read day 1? I disagree. I made a read, and I was right. The fact of the matter is, a quickhammer on day 1 reduced our information and our histories of people's posting here on day 2. how were you right? that radfield is for sure scum? I'm afraid I must not be privy to the same information that you are. What? I voted Nay on the team. Radfield was scummy... and then the mission failed. At the very least, from my personal view, you have to admit-- if I'm town, I'm a fucking G. I'm da man. I called it like I saw it and I was right. If your town you shouldnt worry about how this is making you look. Instead you are...interesting ?? If I'm town I should totally worry because IF I AM THE ONE WHO GETS REPLACED WE LOSE ANOTHER MISSION. are you kidding me? I should try as hard as I can to make sure the other dudes get replaced instead of me... since I know the traitor is one of them two. If I'm town, it is exigent that I try as hard as possible to look good. ._. Have you even thought this through?
yes i have, but the best way to look town is to not say: guys look how town I am.
who would you send on the next mission?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 11:49 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 11:32 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 11:31 GreYMisT wrote:On December 29 2011 11:29 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 11:27 GreYMisT wrote:On December 29 2011 11:17 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 11:10 GreYMisT wrote:On December 29 2011 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:On December 29 2011 09:55 VisceraEyes wrote:/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.) Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy. Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of yo being town. But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms. Let me refer you to my previous post... which it seems you still have not read. Am i town? Yes. I like teams with me on them and will vote yay on them... unless of course they include obvious sxum like Radfield. I made a read and made a call. It's a vote i stand by. wait, did you not just say you will vote nay for any team with the previous night's members....and then just said you will vote yay for teams with you on them? Also why would we be worried about a quickhammer on a day1 team. we have almost 0 info on teams day one as this is a game of logic. we have to send someone, and rad's picks made sense. ?? I will vote nay for teams with the previous nights members who aren't me. ._. Also, I will vote yay for teams with me on them. However, as always, this is subject to things like "obvious scum on a team" which I will vote nay for, etc. The fact of the matter is, the quickhammer on the day 1 team is the reason we have so little info now re: reads on people and their reasoning and post history. Do you really think that there's no way to make a read day 1? I disagree. I made a read, and I was right. The fact of the matter is, a quickhammer on day 1 reduced our information and our histories of people's posting here on day 2. how were you right? that radfield is for sure scum? I'm afraid I must not be privy to the same information that you are. What? I voted Nay on the team. Radfield was scummy... and then the mission failed. At the very least, from my personal view, you have to admit-- if I'm town, I'm a fucking G. I'm da man. I called it like I saw it and I was right. If your town you shouldnt worry about how this is making you look. Instead you are...interesting ?? If I'm town I should totally worry because IF I AM THE ONE WHO GETS REPLACED WE LOSE ANOTHER MISSION. are you kidding me? I should try as hard as I can to make sure the other dudes get replaced instead of me... since I know the traitor is one of them two. If I'm town, it is exigent that I try as hard as possible to look good. ._. Have you even thought this through? yes i have, but the best way to look town is to not say: guys look how town I am. who would you send on the next mission?
Did I say "guys look how town I am" in the post you quoted initially? no I said "if I am town I am a baller"
I think it's reasonable to say that if I am town, I am a HUGE baller. After all, if I'm town I totally called it on the first day and Nay-voted that scum-infested team. :D
I'm not sure who I'd send on the next mission. If I were leader I think I'd bring myself, obviously, but I think I'd interrogate some of the people who haven't posted much to try to get reads. I'd also try to ask people what they think about Palmar and Radfield and whether it's possible Palmar is scum. If most people agree with me, I'd replace Radfield with a town-looking player.
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What about something like this:
Leader + one of the vets + 2 other people that look town? That would be something like Truthbringer + Greymist + VE + either radfield or Palmar. Truthbringer would be the leader and obviously wants to send himself. Both Greymist and VE look townish to me and sure I'd like to be on the mission as well but suggesting youself is and issue we all know and therefor I'm just leaving it up to you guys and finally Radfield or Palmar. If the mission fails we get decent information and if the mission is a success we're good and have decent information or forced a mafia to not sabotage.
It's pretty much about the question if we should risk to send anyone who was part of the last mission at all or a completly new team.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Truthbringer is the upcoming leader.
Why would it be better to send a Vet than a non-Vet? Any particular reasoning behind that?
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After thinking about it for a bit, im starting to think it might be a better idea to create a new team of 4 players as someone else mentioned. Here is why: the scientific method of just changing one thing in the system no longer works at the moment, because we have to add 2 members instead of just changing out 1, thus impeding our efforts to find the spies. of course a new group of 4 does bring its own risks, but we now know at least one of the 3 spies is among rad, palmar, and blazing.
Thoughts?
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it's not about the vet but about the last mission. Obviously Zona jackal and so on are all vets too but I was refering to our two vets from mission 1: palmar and rad The reasoning behind that would be information gain. Right now we don't know which one's the spy. If we keep radfield or palmar and the mission fails we get pretty decent information or even force a spy to not sabotage at all because he would no longer be undercover or the mission succeeds because we picked the right one which is great, too.
I know it's risky as it can get, that's why I'm asking but on the other hand a completly new team might just randomly get us another spy on the team and we're still on 0 information because we only know one out of 3 is a spy and one out of 4 is a spy while those 3 and 4 have nothing in common.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 13:15 GreYMisT wrote: After thinking about it for a bit, im starting to think it might be a better idea to create a new team of 4 players as someone else mentioned. Here is why: the scientific method of just changing one thing in the system no longer works at the moment, because we have to add 2 members instead of just changing out 1, thus impeding our efforts to find the spies. of course a new group of 4 does bring its own risks, but we now know at least one of the 3 spies is among rad, palmar, and blazing.
Thoughts?
A new team of 4 player is literally the worst possible move behind "A team that includes all three of the night 1 players".
Assuming there was 1 and only 1 spy in the 3 who went last night, there are 2 in the 6 who didn't go. This means that if we pick 4 players who didn't go, IT'S SUPER DUPER EASY TO PICK A SPY IN THERE AND SUPER DUPER HARD TO MAKE THE ONE POSSIBLE COMBINATION THAT DOESN'T HAVE A SPY.
If you don't want throw this game you have to pick some people from last night AND some people who didn't go last night, imo. There's a possibility there was 2 spies on board rather than 1 last night, in which case it would be reasonable to pick entirely from the people who didn't go, but we can't know that.
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Firstly, I will go on the mission.
Second, Palmar has given the strongest town read so far, imo, so I'll include him. He has had no opportunity for subtle communication with teammates, plus he gave helpful advice with his one post.
Third, Zona has been similarly quiet, so if he suddenly started talking to communicate with his teammates it would be noticed. My read on him otherwise is null, but my read is similarly null or scummy on his competition.
Finally, VisceraEyes is giving me a townread.
I want to do these four, because I want to pick the highest likelihood of all townies. I think that if I tried to go with an information gain squad, it would put us at 0-2, which we really can't afford.
So, Truthbringer Palmar Zona VisceraEyes
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Oh come on, can you at least wait for a few hours before you propose the team? The day post came up around 23:00 my time and you suggest a team before 9am the morning after.
I don't agree with Zona on your team. I think the rest looks fine. The reason of why I'm a bit vary of zona is this:
On December 27 2011 06:54 Zona wrote: claring his desire not to contribute today, yet implies that he'll examine what we contribute today. Unless the ideal strategy is to not say anything of importance Day 1...but he should have said that specifically if he believed it.
Obviously, it's dumb as fuck to not contribute on day one, this was just a misunderstanding, when I said I'd "read this tomorrow", I meant tomorrow IRL, thus same game-day, just after I had slept.
However, if he indeed understood me to mean I'd not post/read anything until day 2, the reasonable town response is to call me out hard on it, instead of vaguely claiming he doesn't agree with it. There is literally no reason not to talk in this setup, especially with no chance of dying at any point in the game, mafia can't take out good townies in this game, so offering the idea that there might be some "ideal strategy" of saying nothing of importance day 1, which is just... bad.
So yeah, I'll be voting against this.
About last night's mission, that stuff gave me more information than any of you, because I know there is one scum between blaze and radfield. Seeing as we'll need 5 people on the day 5 mission, I think I'm going to suggest we include one of them in the mission today along with me. If we pick our shots well we can potentially clear 2-3 people today, which would take us a long way to winning.
Another thing to mention, Jackal58 hammered the vote, not Radfield.
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It is highly unlikely there were two scum on last day's team, I've gone through both Rad's and Blazinghand's filters, and neither of them posted anything that can be called out for being communication about whether or not they'd sabotage. The closest thing is this post from Blazinghand which could possible be him claiming he'd not sabotage:
On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote: If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
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Stuff like this is the reason I said there should be absolutely no talk about Spy strategies.
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On December 29 2011 19:08 Palmar wrote:Oh come on, can you at least wait for a few hours before you propose the team? The day post came up around 23:00 my time and you suggest a team before 9am the morning after.I don't agree with Zona on your team. I think the rest looks fine. The reason of why I'm a bit vary of zona is this: Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:54 Zona wrote: claring his desire not to contribute today, yet implies that he'll examine what we contribute today. Unless the ideal strategy is to not say anything of importance Day 1...but he should have said that specifically if he believed it. Obviously, it's dumb as fuck to not contribute on day one, this was just a misunderstanding, when I said I'd "read this tomorrow", I meant tomorrow IRL, thus same game-day, just after I had slept. However, if he indeed understood me to mean I'd not post/read anything until day 2, the reasonable town response is to call me out hard on it, instead of vaguely claiming he doesn't agree with it. There is literally no reason not to talk in this setup, especially with no chance of dying at any point in the game, mafia can't take out good townies in this game, so offering the idea that there might be some "ideal strategy" of saying nothing of importance day 1, which is just... bad. So yeah, I'll be voting against this. About last night's mission, that stuff gave me more information than any of you, because I know there is one scum between blaze and radfield. Seeing as we'll need 5 people on the day 5 mission, I think I'm going to suggest we include one of them in the mission today along with me. If we pick our shots well we can potentially clear 2-3 people today, which would take us a long way to winning. Another thing to mention, Jackal58 hammered the vote, not Radfield.
This.
And this. You don't stand in the door admiring the view. You fucking jump. And now we know one of either Rad BH or you is a spy.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 19:24 Palmar wrote:It is highly unlikely there were two scum on last day's team, I've gone through both Rad's and Blazinghand's filters, and neither of them posted anything that can be called out for being communication about whether or not they'd sabotage. The closest thing is this post from Blazinghand which could possible be him claiming he'd not sabotage: Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote: If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
On December 29 2011 19:25 Palmar wrote: Stuff like this is the reason I said there should be absolutely no talk about Spy strategies.
Yeah well you hadn't mentioned that yet at the time I made that post man D: Also that was made WRT: 2 "vets", 1 "me" etc, in a post talking about a plan for Radfield given that certain assumptions with which I disagreed were true.
You didn't mention the "don't talk about spy strategies" tip (a useful tip, btw) until the 27th. I wasn't breaking the rule.
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On December 29 2011 19:31 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 19:08 Palmar wrote:Oh come on, can you at least wait for a few hours before you propose the team? The day post came up around 23:00 my time and you suggest a team before 9am the morning after.I don't agree with Zona on your team. I think the rest looks fine. The reason of why I'm a bit vary of zona is this: On December 27 2011 06:54 Zona wrote: claring his desire not to contribute today, yet implies that he'll examine what we contribute today. Unless the ideal strategy is to not say anything of importance Day 1...but he should have said that specifically if he believed it. Obviously, it's dumb as fuck to not contribute on day one, this was just a misunderstanding, when I said I'd "read this tomorrow", I meant tomorrow IRL, thus same game-day, just after I had slept. However, if he indeed understood me to mean I'd not post/read anything until day 2, the reasonable town response is to call me out hard on it, instead of vaguely claiming he doesn't agree with it. There is literally no reason not to talk in this setup, especially with no chance of dying at any point in the game, mafia can't take out good townies in this game, so offering the idea that there might be some "ideal strategy" of saying nothing of importance day 1, which is just... bad. So yeah, I'll be voting against this. About last night's mission, that stuff gave me more information than any of you, because I know there is one scum between blaze and radfield. Seeing as we'll need 5 people on the day 5 mission, I think I'm going to suggest we include one of them in the mission today along with me. If we pick our shots well we can potentially clear 2-3 people today, which would take us a long way to winning. Another thing to mention, Jackal58 hammered the vote, not Radfield. This. And this. You don't stand in the door admiring the view. You fucking jump. And now we know one of either Rad BH or you is a spy.
Two questions, why did you hammer it without giving much thought about it? I had declared the intentions of voting in favor, but I specifically held off so we could get more comments.
Why do you assume there was only one spy on the mission? Did you do what I did and go back to read to see if there might be any breadcrumbs? I'm curious.
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On December 29 2011 19:37 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 19:24 Palmar wrote:It is highly unlikely there were two scum on last day's team, I've gone through both Rad's and Blazinghand's filters, and neither of them posted anything that can be called out for being communication about whether or not they'd sabotage. The closest thing is this post from Blazinghand which could possible be him claiming he'd not sabotage: On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote: If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 19:25 Palmar wrote: Stuff like this is the reason I said there should be absolutely no talk about Spy strategies. Yeah well you hadn't mentioned that yet at the time I made that post man D: Also that was made WRT: 2 "vets", 1 "me" etc, in a post talking about a plan for Radfield given that certain assumptions with which I disagreed were true. You didn't mention the "don't talk about spy strategies" tip (a useful tip, btw) until the 27th. I wasn't breaking the rule.
I can't actually make rules, and me saying it doesn't necessarily define from what point it's acceptable. You're not "clear" because you got a potential breadcrumb in before some arbitary deadline (the time of my post).
I mean, anyone in town should be able to recognize that it's vital to deny the spy team communication. You did not see this. I'm inclined to suggest a mission team that doesn't include you, but includes both Radfield and I.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
If you suggest a team that includes Radfield you will not have my vote, Palmar. One of you two is mafia-- such a team will certainly fail. Regardless, I think it's fairly reasonable to not post spy strategies, unless your'e suggesting that people SHOULD do so? Also, What the hell a breadcrumb? I was talking about a hypothetical circumstance in which somone held the same assumptions but put together a different team ._. it was a scenario that wasn't actually in existence at the time, and a team comp that I explicitly said I wouldn't support for a number of reasons.
And when Radfield did suggest a shitty ass team (because it included him, who was scummy), I voted against it. Did Jackal hammer it? yes. But it's worth noting that Radfield tried to be the hammer. He didn't vote for his own team until I called him out for it.
That being said, Jackal did hammer. Guys need to be more careful with their hammers man.
That ALSO being said, I find this current team with VE to be somewhat unacceptable. I am not comfortable voting Yay for it at the moment.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Man the reason we're in this crappy D2 situation is because nobody tried to like get stuff done D1 and stuff got hammered. I'm looking at you TruthBringer mr "oh I guess I might as well blindly yay vote this sounds like a good idea, oh no wait someone called me out well, I might as well wait until the team is suggested then yay vote immediately"
I see no reason to vote anything but Nay for this team. At LEAST it's not the terrible "4 people who didn't go last night" team AND it's not the "team with both radfield and palmar", but we seriously need to do better than this. A clean team tonight is basically worth 2 points since the 3rd mission is the same size as the 2nd mission.
I'm voting Nay.
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Yeah as mentioned I like the idea of having one vet in there, either rad or palmar but I don't see why zona should be in there. Yes if he started talking out of the blue that would be a nice tell but would still leave us with 2 more spies. It's not like a bad candidate but he's at most slightly townish for me while we have way better looking people like greymist or me although I can't really judge how I'm looking from the outside :p
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I agree that it's most likely that there was only 1 spy on the mission last night. However, all of you should not take my (or Palmar's) word for it and read Palmar/Radfield/blazinghand's filters yourself.
I'm suspicious of Radfield. His posting feels tangibly artificial whenever he's scum, and it feels that way in this game.
If we're going to aim for a 0 spy mission tonight, we have to take Palmar. Picking 4 from the remaining 6 (where we assume there are 2 spies) and hoping for zero spies is a very low probability deal. And I'm not comfortable with either Radfield or blazinghand. We must score a successful mission tonight, or figure out at least 4 players who are town in the process, if we are to guarantee that we don't immediately lose night 3. I'm still thinking through the merits of aiming for a 0 spy mission, vs aiming for a 2+ spy mission so don't call me out on the "if" part just yet.
On December 29 2011 19:08 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:54 Zona wrote: claring his desire not to contribute today, yet implies that he'll examine what we contribute today. Unless the ideal strategy is to not say anything of importance Day 1...but he should have said that specifically if he believed it. Obviously, it's dumb as fuck to not contribute on day one, this was just a misunderstanding, when I said I'd "read this tomorrow", I meant tomorrow IRL, thus same game-day, just after I had slept. However, if he indeed understood me to mean I'd not post/read anything until day 2, the reasonable town response is to call me out hard on it, instead of vaguely claiming he doesn't agree with it. I didn't call you out hard on it because I thought everything else you wrote had merit.
Actually, there's one thing I posted that I regret, which you guys should be calling me out on:
On December 27 2011 06:44 Zona wrote: However, the other factor in the game is that a spy could be the leader - and then this person could pretty much do whatever the heck he/she wanted. 1 spy on the team? Done. Or maybe 2 spies on the team while trying to subtly tell the other spy not to sabotage? Dunno. On day 1 I doubt we can really tell with confidence if the leader is a spy or not, so I believe that Radfield should be the one to pick. On later days we may want to reject picks from suspected spy leaders. It's for this reason that if Truth's team is rejected, I will forgo choosing a team and all of you should just vote nay on me. That means GreY should start thinking about what team to propose.
As for Truth's team, I'm still mulling over whether or not Truth is likely town, because I think whether or not the team is good solely depends on if Truth is town.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Zona I think your post in the voting thread is misformatted, unless you're voting no for a team you yourself proposed.
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... Did you even read the post I made, just right above your post?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
OH WOW I'M A MORON DON'T MIND ME
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 29 2011 10:13 Blazinghand wrote: Like imagine the inverse-- i think radfield is scum but i vote yes on a team including him .. that makes no sense at all. Given my reads and my knowledge i made the right call. I am severely dissapointed that others did not do the same.
That being said, take a look at Radfield's voting pattern. He was trying to set up abquickhammer and didnt justify his team until called out. I would recommend swapping him out for sire tonight for these reasons.
You are deliberately stretching the truth. Why would you possibly think I was trying to setup some sort of quickhammer? Obviously I am voting Yay on any team I put forward, hence I did not realize I had to vote until it was pointed out to me. Are you really stretching that into scum motivations? Not just that but deliberately scummy and blantant quickhammer scum motivations?
And when Radfield did suggest a shitty ass team (because it included him, who was scummy),
You name your reasons for finding me scummy as A) going against my initial post, and B) not providing my reasons for my team. Correct?
Yet the pure fact that I went against my initial post shows that I'm thinking and willing to find the best team possible. My first post was based entirely on conjecture, so obviously I am not going to hold myself to that in the face of additional information. I'm going to take the players I think are most likely town. Including Palmar in my team, a player who you obviously think is likely town, should only have reinforced the likelihood of me being town, since I independently came to the same conclusion as you(assuming you are town). I then included him, despite me already having a clear-cut reason to not do so(my initial post). If I was scum I have complete information anyways, so no need for me to blatantly contradict myself.
Second, you have stated multiple times that I provided my team without reason, and only after being PRESSURED by you did I give up my reasons. This is false. That is not what happened, as I already explained. I wrote up my second post without seeing your post asking for my reasoning. Check the time stamps. Maybe you think I wrote my post up within 2 minutes, but anyone who knows me knows I take a lot longer than that to make posts. Certainly if I am scum trying to defend myself from an attack I would not write up something and post it within 2 minutes.
Not to mention, my reasons at that stage are going to be weak at best. People were clamoring for a team so we could get going, and I proposed the best one I saw at the time. I think I likely made a mistake including you though.
You should not be on any mission from here on out, and if you want to auto-nay things that's fine by me. You have a ton of scummy things going for you right now:
On December 29 2011 09:18 Blazinghand wrote: I think the next day team should not inclide anyone from the day one team since one person from the day one team is scum I will auto nay any vote that includes members of the day one team besides myself.it has been obvious to me that ras is scum in the way he presented and argued his team. That being said none of you guys know my aligment so yhe optimal strat for anyone not sent on last night's mission is to vote nay on any team containing members from that.
This plan is absurdly anti-town. As pointed out, the likelihood of nabbing the proper 4 players from the remaining 6 are very low. If we fail this mission, we gain almost no additional info moving forward.
Also, you voted nay against a Day 1 mission that included you. Lets just think about that for a moment. On Day 1 you have almost no info on other players. If you are town and included in a mission, the likelihood of that mission succeeding goes up astronomically(compared to a mission with 3 players who are not you). Yet you voted against it, and are somehow positive I am scum, based on things that are largely irrelevant, and certainly not scummy.
Again, assuming you are town, you know one of myself or Palmar is scum. Yet you are absolutely convinced it is me, and giving Palmar a huge free pass. That makes no sense. I am sitting here looking at your posts thinking, "that guy is almost certainly a spy", yet I'm not about to give Palmar a free pass, because I could very well be wrong. Yet you seem absolutely certain, which is absurd at this stage.
One of you two is scum, that is a fact. Right now I lean probably 80-20 in favor of blaze.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 29 2011 17:33 TruthBringer wrote: Firstly, I will go on the mission.
Second, Palmar has given the strongest town read so far, imo, so I'll include him. He has had no opportunity for subtle communication with teammates, plus he gave helpful advice with his one post.
Third, Zona has been similarly quiet, so if he suddenly started talking to communicate with his teammates it would be noticed. My read on him otherwise is null, but my read is similarly null or scummy on his competition.
Finally, VisceraEyes is giving me a townread.
I want to do these four, because I want to pick the highest likelihood of all townies. I think that if I tried to go with an information gain squad, it would put us at 0-2, which we really can't afford.
So, Truthbringer Palmar Zona VisceraEyes
I also disagree with sending zona right now. However I agree with Truth, Palmar and VE.
Truth Palmar Radfield VE
That is the team I would like to see sent.
However, I have not reread the thread yet, so I'm not really sure if this is the optimum send.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 29 2011 09:18 Blazinghand wrote: I think the next day team should not inclide anyone from the day one team since one person from the day one team is scum. I will auto nay any vote that includes members of the day one team besides myself.it has been obvious to me that ras is scum in the way he presented and argued his team. That being said none of you guys know my aligment so yhe optimal strat for anyone not sent on last night's mission is to vote nay on any team containing members from that.
Also anyone who believes VE that i am more suspicious for my post against the team "near the end of the day" is a moron or scum or both. I was pointing out the danger of a Radfield quickhammer. The day was only close to the end because some guys voted yes after my post, not due to the time limitation. Believe it or not i fingered Rad as scum and I stand by that read and my nay vote.
On December 29 2011 20:19 Blazinghand wrote: Man the reason we're in this crappy D2 situation is because nobody tried to like get stuff done D1 and stuff got hammered. I'm looking at you TruthBringer mr "oh I guess I might as well blindly yay vote this sounds like a good idea, oh no wait someone called me out well, I might as well wait until the team is suggested then yay vote immediately"
I see no reason to vote anything but Nay for this team. At LEAST it's not the terrible "4 people who didn't go last night" team AND it's not the "team with both radfield and palmar", but we seriously need to do better than this. A clean team tonight is basically worth 2 points since the 3rd mission is the same size as the 2nd mission.
I'm voting Nay.
You are basically blatantly contradicting yourself. A) " I will not vote for any team which includes someone from day one", B) "at least it's not the terrible suggestions that I made".
An additional contradiction: You are stating over and over that I am obvious scum, yet you are refusing to vote for any team that includes Palmar. Yet if you think only 1 scum went on the mission, and you are positive it was me, you should be backing Palmar to be included in the Day 2 mission. Yet you are stating the opposite.
I will auto nay any vote that includes members of the day one team besides myself.it has been obvious to me that ras is scum in the way he presented and argued his team.
^Look at this quote! You state I am the obvious scum on the team, yet you will not vote for any team with Palmar. That is brutal.
Where the F is YOUR team blazinghand, this is your contribution:
...I see no reason to vote anything but Nay for this team. At LEAST it's not the terrible "4 people who didn't go last night" team AND it's not the "team with both radfield and palmar", but we seriously need to do better than this. A clean team tonight is basically worth 2 points since the 3rd mission is the same size as the 2nd mission.
Who do YOU want to send today. What do YOU think is the optimal team. You don't get to stand in the shadows and snipe just because you are not the team leader.
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How would you feel about sending me, truth, visceraeyes, and one more townie looking player (that'd be someone that's not jackal, blazinghand or zona).
so greymist or toad?
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On December 29 2011 21:00 Zona wrote:Actually, there's one thing I posted that I regret, which you guys should be calling me out on: Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:44 Zona wrote: However, the other factor in the game is that a spy could be the leader - and then this person could pretty much do whatever the heck he/she wanted. 1 spy on the team? Done. Or maybe 2 spies on the team while trying to subtly tell the other spy not to sabotage? Dunno. On day 1 I doubt we can really tell with confidence if the leader is a spy or not, so I believe that Radfield should be the one to pick. On later days we may want to reject picks from suspected spy leaders. It's for this reason that if Truth's team is rejected, I will forgo choosing a team and all of you should just vote nay on me. That means GreY should start thinking about what team to propose. As for Truth's team, I'm still mulling over whether or not Truth is likely town, because I think whether or not the team is good solely depends on if Truth is town.
Believe it or not, I was waiting to see which of Palmar or Radfield called you out on it. XD
The fact that Palmar didn't doesn't sit well with me...but I'm still in favor of the 1 scum on N1 mission, and I still think that's Blaze at this juncture...
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On December 29 2011 20:05 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 19:31 Jackal58 wrote:On December 29 2011 19:08 Palmar wrote:Oh come on, can you at least wait for a few hours before you propose the team? The day post came up around 23:00 my time and you suggest a team before 9am the morning after.I don't agree with Zona on your team. I think the rest looks fine. The reason of why I'm a bit vary of zona is this: On December 27 2011 06:54 Zona wrote: claring his desire not to contribute today, yet implies that he'll examine what we contribute today. Unless the ideal strategy is to not say anything of importance Day 1...but he should have said that specifically if he believed it. Obviously, it's dumb as fuck to not contribute on day one, this was just a misunderstanding, when I said I'd "read this tomorrow", I meant tomorrow IRL, thus same game-day, just after I had slept. However, if he indeed understood me to mean I'd not post/read anything until day 2, the reasonable town response is to call me out hard on it, instead of vaguely claiming he doesn't agree with it. There is literally no reason not to talk in this setup, especially with no chance of dying at any point in the game, mafia can't take out good townies in this game, so offering the idea that there might be some "ideal strategy" of saying nothing of importance day 1, which is just... bad. So yeah, I'll be voting against this. About last night's mission, that stuff gave me more information than any of you, because I know there is one scum between blaze and radfield. Seeing as we'll need 5 people on the day 5 mission, I think I'm going to suggest we include one of them in the mission today along with me. If we pick our shots well we can potentially clear 2-3 people today, which would take us a long way to winning. Another thing to mention, Jackal58 hammered the vote, not Radfield. This. And this. You don't stand in the door admiring the view. You fucking jump. And now we know one of either Rad BH or you is a spy. Two questions, why did you hammer it without giving much thought about it? I had declared the intentions of voting in favor, but I specifically held off so we could get more comments. Why do you assume there was only one spy on the mission? Did you do what I did and go back to read to see if there might be any breadcrumbs? I'm curious. I hammered it because we already had two days of people saying a whole lot of nothing. I'm not assuming there is only one. But we now know that at least one of the 3 of you is. That is a fact. Anything else is speculation.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 29 2011 23:33 Palmar wrote: How would you feel about sending me, truth, visceraeyes, and one more townie looking player (that'd be someone that's not jackal, blazinghand or zona).
so greymist or toad?
I would be ok with Palmar, truth, VE and greymist. Less ok with toad.
I think my ideal team right now would be Palmar, Greymist, VE and myself. With Palmar, Radfield, VE and Truth as second.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 30 2011 02:10 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 20:05 Palmar wrote:On December 29 2011 19:31 Jackal58 wrote:On December 29 2011 19:08 Palmar wrote:Oh come on, can you at least wait for a few hours before you propose the team? The day post came up around 23:00 my time and you suggest a team before 9am the morning after.I don't agree with Zona on your team. I think the rest looks fine. The reason of why I'm a bit vary of zona is this: On December 27 2011 06:54 Zona wrote: claring his desire not to contribute today, yet implies that he'll examine what we contribute today. Unless the ideal strategy is to not say anything of importance Day 1...but he should have said that specifically if he believed it. Obviously, it's dumb as fuck to not contribute on day one, this was just a misunderstanding, when I said I'd "read this tomorrow", I meant tomorrow IRL, thus same game-day, just after I had slept. However, if he indeed understood me to mean I'd not post/read anything until day 2, the reasonable town response is to call me out hard on it, instead of vaguely claiming he doesn't agree with it. There is literally no reason not to talk in this setup, especially with no chance of dying at any point in the game, mafia can't take out good townies in this game, so offering the idea that there might be some "ideal strategy" of saying nothing of importance day 1, which is just... bad. So yeah, I'll be voting against this. About last night's mission, that stuff gave me more information than any of you, because I know there is one scum between blaze and radfield. Seeing as we'll need 5 people on the day 5 mission, I think I'm going to suggest we include one of them in the mission today along with me. If we pick our shots well we can potentially clear 2-3 people today, which would take us a long way to winning. Another thing to mention, Jackal58 hammered the vote, not Radfield. This. And this. You don't stand in the door admiring the view. You fucking jump. And now we know one of either Rad BH or you is a spy. Two questions, why did you hammer it without giving much thought about it? I had declared the intentions of voting in favor, but I specifically held off so we could get more comments. Why do you assume there was only one spy on the mission? Did you do what I did and go back to read to see if there might be any breadcrumbs? I'm curious. I hammered it because we already had two days of people saying a whole lot of nothing. I'm not assuming there is only one. But we now know that at least one of the 3 of you is. That is a fact. Anything else is speculation.
Who do you think we should send today Jackal? Who do you think is most likely scum out of the three of us? Do you think we should be building a brand new team, or keeping part of the Day 1 team around?
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I chose my team with as little outside influence as possible. I didn't ask for advice, I picked the four safest townies to me and proposed it.
It seems like my team won't be accepted, so whoever ends up getting to pick the team should try to do the same.
If you are a truly townie leader, trust yourself, not the concensus. If you trust the concensus, you may be allowing yourself to be influenced by the spies.
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On December 29 2011 09:18 Blazinghand wrote: I think the next day team should not inclide anyone from the day one team since one person from the day one team is scum I will auto nay any vote that includes members of the day one team besides myself.it has been obvious to me that ras is scum in the way he presented and argued his team. That being said none of you guys know my aligment so yhe optimal strat for anyone not sent on last night's mission is to vote nay on any team containing members from that.
Also anyone who believes VE that i am more suspicious for my post against the team "near the end of the day" is a moron or scum or both. I was pointing out the danger of a Radfield quickhammer. The day was only close to the end because some guys voted yes after my post, not due to the time limitation. Believe it or not i fingered Rad as scum and I stand by that read and my nay vote.
Wait you say this, then you shoot down my idea to not include members from the day1 team, which is essentially the exact same thing you say here?
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I will also be nay voting the team. I am not comfortable with the ways in which he arrived at his conclusions. basically he wants the strongest townreads, but gives most of them mediocre reasons at best. This would be an ok team day1, but on day 2 when you state your objective as "create a winning team" and pick a missmatch of players, that is something im not ok with.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 23:09 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 09:18 Blazinghand wrote: I think the next day team should not inclide anyone from the day one team since one person from the day one team is scum. I will auto nay any vote that includes members of the day one team besides myself.it has been obvious to me that ras is scum in the way he presented and argued his team. That being said none of you guys know my aligment so yhe optimal strat for anyone not sent on last night's mission is to vote nay on any team containing members from that.
Also anyone who believes VE that i am more suspicious for my post against the team "near the end of the day" is a moron or scum or both. I was pointing out the danger of a Radfield quickhammer. The day was only close to the end because some guys voted yes after my post, not due to the time limitation. Believe it or not i fingered Rad as scum and I stand by that read and my nay vote. Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 20:19 Blazinghand wrote: Man the reason we're in this crappy D2 situation is because nobody tried to like get stuff done D1 and stuff got hammered. I'm looking at you TruthBringer mr "oh I guess I might as well blindly yay vote this sounds like a good idea, oh no wait someone called me out well, I might as well wait until the team is suggested then yay vote immediately"
I see no reason to vote anything but Nay for this team. At LEAST it's not the terrible "4 people who didn't go last night" team AND it's not the "team with both radfield and palmar", but we seriously need to do better than this. A clean team tonight is basically worth 2 points since the 3rd mission is the same size as the 2nd mission.
I'm voting Nay. You are basically blatantly contradicting yourself. A) " I will not vote for any team which includes someone from day one", B) "at least it's not the terrible suggestions that I made". An additional contradiction: You are stating over and over that I am obvious scum, yet you are refusing to vote for any team that includes Palmar. Yet if you think only 1 scum went on the mission, and you are positive it was me, you should be backing Palmar to be included in the Day 2 mission. Yet you are stating the opposite. Show nested quote + I will auto nay any vote that includes members of the day one team besides myself.it has been obvious to me that ras is scum in the way he presented and argued his team. ^Look at this quote! You state I am the obvious scum on the team, yet you will not vote for any team with Palmar. That is brutal.
In case it's not clear, when I initially said "I don't want any teams with Radfield or Palmar" I hadn't actually realized that the day 2 team was a 4-man team. My suggestion for the team composition is a suggestion for 3 people in that post. Novice mistake:
On December 30 2011 04:08 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 09:18 Blazinghand wrote: I think the next day team should not inclide anyone from the day one team since one person from the day one team is scum I will auto nay any vote that includes members of the day one team besides myself.it has been obvious to me that ras is scum in the way he presented and argued his team. That being said none of you guys know my aligment so yhe optimal strat for anyone not sent on last night's mission is to vote nay on any team containing members from that.
Also anyone who believes VE that i am more suspicious for my post against the team "near the end of the day" is a moron or scum or both. I was pointing out the danger of a Radfield quickhammer. The day was only close to the end because some guys voted yes after my post, not due to the time limitation. Believe it or not i fingered Rad as scum and I stand by that read and my nay vote. Wait you say this, then you shoot down my idea to not include members from the day1 team, which is essentially the exact same thing you say here?
Once I realize the team includes 4 people, it's fairly clear that it's very difficult to have a functioning team with 4 people who all didn't go last night. So, to reiterate:
I will vote nay on a team that includes both Radfield and Palmar, since this team is guaranteed to fail. I will vote nay on a team that includes nobody from the N1 team, since this team is BASICALLY guaranteed to fail. I like teams with me on them, but will vote nay on them if I think they include scum.
The fact that you guys couldn't figure out how to vote Nay on Radfield's obvious scum play yesterday isn't my fault.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 30 2011 03:32 TruthBringer wrote: If you are a truly townie leader, trust yourself, not the concensus. If you trust the concensus, you may be allowing yourself to be influenced by the spies.
Obviously each leader should provide a team that he believes is good. Also obviously there are spies. That being said if you say "hey guys what do you think" then, before everyone gets a chance to respond, slap down a team, well, don't expect to be too successful.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Blaze, what is your optimum team? What is the team you would send that does NOT include you(if you had to)?
Jackal, you need to start thinking about your team. Ideally you have your team proposed before you actually become leader so that we can keep things moving quickly.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Blaze, what do you think of Palmar?
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Team Rejected!
A team consisting of TruthBringer, Palmar, Zona and VisceraEyes has been rejected for this mission!
Final vote count: Yays: TruthBringer Nays: Blazinghand Palmar Radfield GreYMisT Toadesstern
The new leader is Zona whose team is None
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voted nay and that should make it 5. Zona is the next one right?
Just something I realised while rereading the thread: I said like 2 times I would like a team that's leader + palmar/rad + waynie + waynie. Radfield essentielly said he wants the exact same thing. However he ends up saying he doesn't want me on a team because of whatever. Rad if you don't like to send me shouldn't you be worried about sending the team I'm ok with?
On December 29 2011 23:00 Radfield wrote:
I also disagree with sending zona right now. However I agree with Truth, Palmar and VE.
Truth Palmar Radfield VE
That is the team I would like to see sent.
I mean that's what you said and the only difference I made to that is that I'd like to see Greymist over Palmar while stating that I also don't like Zona at the moment because we clearly got better candidates. Care to explain?
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Zona, you said eariler that you would nay vote any team that included you on it. Does this mean that as leader you are going to make a team that doesnt include you?
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On December 30 2011 05:20 Radfield wrote: Blaze, what is your optimum team? What is the team you would send that does NOT include you(if you had to)?
Jackal, you need to start thinking about your team. Ideally you have your team proposed before you actually become leader so that we can keep things moving quickly. I have been. It will include none from day 1.
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Me Visc Grey and Toad. We can run that team 3 consecutive times if it works.
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Did I miss something? Why is jackal planning a team when zona is next in line?
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On December 30 2011 08:38 GreYMisT wrote: Did I miss something? Why is jackal planning a team when zona is next in line?
Rad asked him his opinion.
Jackal, why neither of Rad/Palmar? Obviously I get Blaze, but srsly not 1 of Rad/Palmar?
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On December 30 2011 08:42 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 08:38 GreYMisT wrote: Did I miss something? Why is jackal planning a team when zona is next in line? Rad asked him his opinion. Jackal, why neither of Rad/Palmar? Obviously I get Blaze, but srsly not 1 of Rad/Palmar? Because the possibility exists that there were multiple scum on that mission. We know one of the 3 are. But 2 of or possibly all 3 are. We don't know.
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But chances are only 1 were right? Am I mistaken in thinking so? I mean, we know that there was only 1 sabotage attempt from the Day post, can we not extrapolate that only 1 scum was present?
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On December 30 2011 09:04 VisceraEyes wrote: But chances are only 1 were right? Am I mistaken in thinking so? I mean, we know that there was only 1 sabotage attempt from the Day post, can we not extrapolate that only 1 scum was present? Unless they have identified each other. The daypost was what I based my first post regarding night 1 on. We know that one of Rad, Palmar or BH is scum. That is fact. More than one is a possibility. I'm predisposed to not sending any of them out again atm.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I'm preemptively Nay on Jackal in that case. If there was one spy exactly on the mission last night then his strat is dumb. He has no way of knowing... unless of course he is scum trying to sink the town.
Zona is voting nay on himself I will follow suit. I am accessing via phone and will have acess to a keyboard later tonight for adressing other queries
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The problem with keeping the team the same and only switching out 1 member is indeed the possibility that more than 1 scum exists on it. I don't think we can do something like that until night 4, which requires 2 sabatoges. However people have made some good points against a totally new team. My thoughts are now that we know there is at least 1 scum among those players, we isolate them completely to remove 1 or more spies from the game entirely. This leaves at most 2 spies in the remaining players to deal with.
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On December 30 2011 09:40 GreYMisT wrote: The problem with keeping the team the same and only switching out 1 member is indeed the possibility that more than 1 scum exists on it. I don't think we can do something like that until night 4, which requires 2 sabatoges. However people have made some good points against a totally new team. My thoughts are now that we know there is at least 1 scum among those players, we isolate them completely to remove 1 or more spies from the game entirely. This leaves at most 2 spies in the remaining players to deal with.
yeah that's the reason I'd like to have either palmar or rad + leader + 2 townish looking people. BH is for most people the guy who's looking most scummy. If we do a team like leader + Radfield/Palmar + townie + townie we get awesome information. If that team fails we've almost isolated one scum and if it's a success we've chosen the right guy and will do the exact same thing again which denies scum the possibility to hide. I am suggesting Rad/Palmar over BH because I can't tell which one looks better but most people think BH looks worse than those 2. So a team with either Rad or Palmar is more likely to be a success and that'd be clear information for us based on what happened d1.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Whats your rwad in me toad? Are you part of this elusive "most people" or are you countig me out just becaise some bros be hatin
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wtf BH already voted nay on Jackal? I do agree that an all new team would not be a good idea but already voting nay? Jackal is the 7th on our leader list. It's not like his idea is engraved in stone and won't change anymore. That's just weird.
Jackal's not leader right now, Zona is (he's #3). That means there's 4 other teams or at least team suggestions that are bound to happen before Jackal is going to be leader and proooobably his mind might change during that process? At least I hope that another dayposts adds a piece to the puzzle for him as well, which he won't just ignore :p
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I just did some math (someone please double check), and if we assume that 2 spies exist in the remaining 6 players who have not gone on a mission, and we randomly picked a team consisting of 4 players, we would have a 41.6 percent chance of having at least 1 spy on the team. even though we of course would not be RNGing a team, I will admit close to 50/50 odds are not really the best to go on at the moment. Still waiting for zona's thoughts.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Neither is my vote engraved in stone and unchanging rigjt? Im jist leyting jackal know hisnidea is dumbbbbbbb. If he doesnt chsnge his mind when he comes up for leader today neother wil I . He hammered home a crappy team and is pushing another. I will not stand for this
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Gremist thats old news jackals idea is clearly either moronical or scum as i have said
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Also greymist your math is totally erong the ods are way way worse than that were talkung like 80% chance of 1+ spy
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Ya man wtf 41.6% where did you learn your maths its def ovr 80%
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On December 30 2011 10:01 Blazinghand wrote: Whats your rwad in me toad? Are you part of this elusive "most people" or are you countig me out just becaise some bros be hatin You're more likely scum than palmar and rad for me I guess. The biggest issue I have is actually trying to figure out rad or palmar because they're both equally not contributing / taking sides which freaks me out. I think you're the most likely to turn out mafia out of those 3 by a bit but I'd much rather get information on either palmar or rad because I can't differentiate between those 2 (actually zonas in there as well...) while having a better chance of success imo.
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If we only have 1 spy on mission-1 and we pick 4 now guys that would be 4/6 * 3/5 * 2/4 * 1/3 chances of getting town only. That is 24 / 360 which is a chance of 6,6% to hit town only on d2 if we pick completly new 4 people. That is a chance of roughly 93% to get at least 1 scum on d2
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EBWOP: Obviously that's only the pure math. Really looks better because we're not really going to randomly pick someone but instead pick people we think are town. We'd make an educated guess rather than a rnd-guess. That increases our chances but they're still as slim as you can get in this setup.
So yes. If you think there was only 1 spy on d1 picking 4 new people should not be an option,
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Unless of course jackal is scim and wamts us to fail
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Blaze, you still didn't answer who you think should go today. What is your ideal team.
Also, I have no idea why I thought Jackal was third in line, but I did. I'm actually a bit surprised he answered my question the way he did, considering he shouldn't have even been thinking about picking teams given his low spot.
Zona, you need to put forward a team ASAP. It doesn't have to include you if for some reason you don't want to send yourself. But hustle up.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Rad i didjnt answe your questik adbi already mentioned causr im on my pjone and csnt like view peoples filtetd and stuff. Also read zonas post hes novoting his own team
Gos why does nobdoy read anybodybelses posts in this game
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On December 30 2011 10:22 Toadesstern wrote: If we only have 1 spy on mission-1 and we pick 4 now guys that would be 4/6 * 3/5 * 2/4 * 1/3 chances of getting town only. That is 24 / 360 which is a chance of 6,6% to hit town only on d2 if we pick completly new 4 people. That is a chance of roughly 93% to get at least 1 scum on d2
alright thanks, i knew i messed up somewhere. its been years since i have done probability stuff.
But my point still stands that I admit to being wrong about choosing the new people. Im still a bit worried that we have yet to hear from zona.
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On December 30 2011 11:12 Blazinghand wrote: Rad i didjnt answe your questik adbi already mentioned causr im on my pjone and csnt like view peoples filtetd and stuff. Also read zonas post hes novoting his own team
Gos why does nobdoy read anybodybelses posts in this game
I know you are posting from your phone and all, but maybe the above is a good example of why "nobdoy read anybodybelses posts"
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Greymist read zonas filtr he explains tjst he ais nayvoting himself
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Oh hey what a surprisr ppl finally listening to me and it turns out that i as always am right
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she said she is nayvoting teams with her on them, not that she is going to nayvote herself when she becomes leader.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 29 2011 21:00 Zona wrote: I agree that it's most likely that there was only 1 spy on the mission last night. However, all of you should not take my ( It's for this reason that if Truth's team is rejected, I will forgo choosing a team and all of you should just vote nay on me. That means GreY should start thinking about what team to propose.
As for Truth's team, I'm still mulling over whether or not Truth is likely town, because I think whether or not the team is good solely depends on if Truth is town.
Here greymist i help u
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Ya dats rigbt im bettet at fidng tjis stiff via phonr thsn you are via computerbo ya i even make post quote excerpt.for u huh
I wish anyone read ppkls posts
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please stop typing until you get to a computer
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Ih whats this vlazinghand youbalso find vote podt?? How di u do this when vote thread is so big blazonghand is so sexy
Ya On December 29 2011 21:50 Zona wrote: meh
##vote Zona: nay
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That was a nay vote for truthbringer's team, she has failed to nay vote herself.
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wtf srsly that can't be phone only. That's like a combination of being drunk, typing on your phone, playing starcraft (you may chose which one but chose wisely) and having a having to do all that with with your left hand because you broke your right arm yesterday.
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On December 30 2011 11:44 GreYMisT wrote: That was a nay vote for truthbringer's team, she has failed to nay vote herself.
unless you can preemtivly nay vote leaders before they actually become leaders, which is weird.
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I think she (it's a girl?) did preemtivly nayvote herself. But I don't know if it's legit
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Votes for current team: Yays: Nays: Zona Blazinghand
[/center]
Herr i help u
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On December 30 2011 10:13 Blazinghand wrote: Gremist thats old news jackals idea is clearly either moronical or scum as i have said I don't want your approval scummy. Get a bigger phone.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 30 2011 11:50 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 10:13 Blazinghand wrote: Gremist thats old news jackals idea is clearly either moronical or scum as i have said I don't want your approval scummy. Get a bigger phone. Other ppl agree that youe idea is dumb are wr all scum then
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well in that case it's a nay for me as well because there probably won't be a teamsuggestion at all until greymist is leader. Although I'd still like to hear what she thinks.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Gentlemen how do ws feel about jackal59 in ligjt of his hammering and his proposition of a sure-to+fail team, a proposition tjat he has yet to retract instead chosing to bm my admittedly subpar typimg slkils? I am hifhly suspicious of him and will nay any team that includes him or is propoaed by him umless.i can be convinced of his innoxence
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Problem with Jackal's idea is this:
I think there was only one scum on the team tonight, this is based on the fact that neither Blazinghand nor Radfield left behind anything that is a clear attempt at telling the other not to sabotage. This means that in the remaining 6 people there are most likely 2 scum, so the chances of dodging both of those and selecting exactly the 4 people that aren't scum are very, very slim.
I'd much rather go with what I know, which is myself on a team, and then the more townie looking of Radfield and Blazinghand (which is Radfield atm). Then I'd add VE who looks pretty town, and the last spot would go to truth, toad or greymist. At the moment I'm leaning towards truthbringer on the team.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I have arrived at home. To whit:
Re. Jackal58: Ladies and Gentlemen, in light of his hammering the D vote and his proposition of a nearly-sure-to-fail team, I find myself strongly suspicious of him. This suspicion is only further compounded by his non-response to by questioning the wisdom of his ideas-- especially given the risks involved with picking a team entirely from people who didn't go last night, risks that we are all aware of and are generally unwilling to take. Unless I am further convinced, I will vote nay on any team including him OR proposed by him as Leader.
Re. Radfield's Incessant Badgering and non-reading of my posts: Seriously Radfield? I consider Radfield to be scummy due to his actions which include a deceptive voting pattern for his own team d1, and his lack of justification for his own team d1, both of which are things I called him out on and he only rectified after I did so. In any case, if I had to pick a team at the moment, I think I'd pick myself, Palmar, and 2 additional players-- PROBABLY Toadesstern... and the last pick is tough. I'd probably badger zona to try to get a better read, but, failing that, ... UGH i guess it would be between Greymist and VisceralEyes. Probably Greymist, but i'll have to go back through VE's posts to get a better read on him.
You also ask "well what if you had to select a team without yourself on it" and my answer to that is "I categorically refuse to make a team without myself when I am leader."
But yeah my chief concerns here are Radfield and Jackal as far as mafia goes. There's still some possibility that it was Palmar and not Radfield, but I think it's Radfield.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Palmar is you select a team with Radfield AND yourself on it you are shooting yourself in the foot. I'm 100% srs I will Nayvote ANY TEAM that includes both Radfield and Palmar because such a team includes a spy.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
That being said, GreyMist is up next if people could finish NayVoting zona.
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On December 30 2011 18:22 Blazinghand wrote: Palmar is you select a team with Radfield AND yourself on it you are shooting yourself in the foot. I'm 100% srs I will Nayvote ANY TEAM that includes both Radfield and Palmar because such a team includes a spy.
That says nothing about your alignment, if you do vote for a team with both of us you could just as well be claiming scum, so I'm not actually worried about what you think about it or how you will vote, I don't care what you have to say while I think you're scum. I'm trying to convince townies, not you.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Alright, well, will you afford me the opportunity to defend myself? Offer your case for why I am scum, and I will do my best to defray your arguments. Either I'm scum and wasting your time, or I'm town and trying to save the upcoming mission. Given that it's POSSIBLE I'm town, could you state your case?
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Defend yourself all you want.
I don't have a case, I scumhunt by finding townies, and Radfield looks kinda like one. That simply leaves you by process of elimination. (If you're interested, I also think VE is town, and very likely truthbringer is town).
Actually, fuck it, seeing as mafia cannot actually kill anyone this game, I'm proposing a new tactic for town. How about everyone lists their top 3 town reads (excluding themselves). This will help us a lot because it tells us who's reading the thread and what people are getting from it.
1. VisceraEyes (he really does look like his usual spammy town self, even when he was being a mafia asshole in xlviii he was very reserved and didn't post much fluff) 2. Truthbringer (by the virtue of having me as a strong town read, which is extremely dangerous to do if you're spies, in addition, while I didn't agree with the entirety of his team (zona), it seemed townie enough when he put it forward, he included both me and VE) 3. Radfield (His posting looks kinda pro-town, and if he was actually a spy he'd have done much more to discredit me, because he knows what giving me town-credit can do to a scum team.)
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
My top 3 town reads are Palmar, Toaddestern and Greymist.
Palmar is town because Radfield is scum and there was 1 spy onboard last night (probably). Also he hasn't been acting untownlike.
Toaddestern is town because he did good math and is trying to help.
Greymist is town (I think) because he's posting and trying to be helpful. His somewhat lax reading comprehensive skills and questionable knowledge of probability do not help him here but I'm torn between him and VE for this place.
So Palmar, your case against me is "Radfield is town". This is reasonable. If you a town player believe Radfield to be town, logically I must be scum.
HOWEVER
I'm not a fan of the way Radfield didn't vote for his own team, didn't follow up on his initial logic discussion re: team composition for day 1 leading into his team, and furthermore didn't try to justify or defend his choice of team until after I called it out of him. This leads me to believe he was scum. You clearly find these arguments unconvincing. Why is that?
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he did vote for his own team, in fact it was his vote that allowed the much scummier jackal to hammer it.
Your entire argument against the team was that Radfield himself should not be included on it, but regardless of Rad's alignment he would always have to include himself, because as town he's the only confirmed townie he has, and as scum... well he needs to act like he's town.
I'll go back and re-read your interchange, but if I remember correctly it was his presence you criticized.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I'm not talking about the REASON I disliked his team. The fact that I disliked his team doesn't make him scummy-- granted, I disliked his team because I found HIM scummy, but that's not why he's scummy.
He's scummy because he didn't provide any justification for his team whatsoever until after I called him out for offering no justification whatsoever, and ALSO didn't vote for his team until I called him out for not voting for his team. Was it good that the jackal hammer happened? No. Although that lets us know Jackal is a scummy bastard, it also choked off our vital D1 discussion and caused us to lose our initial mission. If there had been more time, things D1 could have been different.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Like, the idea that a scummy Jackal hammer cutting short our D1 discussion and sending a failed team on the first mission was a net positive is basically false.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Man way to bail. OK well I guess you went to bed. I'm off for a bit since I need to do that sleep BS. I'll check back sometime tomorrow afternoon when I wake up. After dinner ish though I'll be on via phone, and rereading some of my posts i'm inclined to spend more time reading than writing.
THAT BEING SAID if people are gonna be like "hey man i'm just straight up not reading posts in this thread nor am I reading the voting thread" you will all be subject to my typo-ridden remonstrations again. I won't be in a car this time though so It won't actually be typo-ridden and I will have time to correct them, etc.
Also, "Jackal hammer" kinda looks like "jackhammer". heh.
night
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Blazinghand, you state that you are the boss of reading the thread, which means you must be deliberately not reading my posts, as opposed to just accidentally not reading them.
I'm not a fan of the way Radfield didn't vote for his own team, didn't follow up on his initial logic discussion re: team composition for day 1 leading into his team, and furthermore didn't try to justify or defend his choice of team until after I called it out of him. This leads me to believe he was scum. You clearly find these arguments unconvincing. Why is that?
I have responded to these arguments several times, but will do it again because you are refusing to drop it.
1. I did not vote for my own team immediately. You seem to think this was a master plan of mine to sneakily hammer my own vote in a dastardly attempt to stifle town discussion. When in fact it was obviously(obvious to everyone else in the thread) just me not realizing that I had to vote for my own team. The first Day of the first game of forum resistance I have ever played. I mean come on, I am obviously going to vote for the team I put forward, it doesn't even makes sense for me not.
2. I didn't follow my initial post because more information was presented. My initial post was an attempt to generate discussion in the thread, not a set-in-stone set of guidelines for me to follow throughout the game. Again, this is obvious to every other player in the thread except for you. I chose my team based on who I thought was most likely town, NOT based on a post I made before any other players had posted. You are calling me scummy for something that is almost by definition NOT scummy.
3. You claim I did not justify my vote until after you called me out. Technically this is true, but I did not see your post until after I had already posted. Again, I ask you to check the time stamps. I did not write up that post in 2 minutes, as other than 1 liners no post in this forum ever takes me 2 minutes to write, and certainly no when I am scum. If you think I am lying to you right now, then fine, call me a liar. But you don't get to pretend anymore that I am not responding to you.
The fact that you are harping on these things when they not remotely scummy makes you look very very bad.
I'm not talking about the REASON I disliked his team. The fact that I disliked his team doesn't make him scummy-- granted, I disliked his team because I found HIM scummy, but that's not why he's scummy.
I don't believe you. I don't think you found me scummy at all until after I proposed the team. A team which you were a part of, and a team which you knew would fail. You voted against a Day 1 team including yourself which is absurdly scummy. You are desperately trying to paint me as scum(not to mention ignoring me and constantly repeating yourself) because it otherwise becomes obvious that you are scum.
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Team Rejected!
A team consisting of None has been rejected for this mission!
Final vote count: Yays: Nays: Zona Blazinghand GreYMisT Toadesstern Radfield
The new leader is GreYMisT whose team is: None
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
OK, having reread the thread I am pretty ok with Toad going. I think he is very likely town.
Toad, VE, Radfield + Palmar or Greymist would be a team I agree with. Any combination of those 5 is pretty ok with me. Truthbringer, Blazinghand, Jackal and Zona I would rather not go.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 30 2011 22:12 Radfield wrote:The fact that you are harping on these things when they not remotely scummy makes you look very very bad. Show nested quote +I'm not talking about the REASON I disliked his team. The fact that I disliked his team doesn't make him scummy-- granted, I disliked his team because I found HIM scummy, but that's not why he's scummy. I don't believe you. I don't think you found me scummy at all until after I proposed the team. A team which you were a part of, and a team which you knew would fail. You voted against a Day 1 team including yourself which is absurdly scummy. You are desperately trying to paint me as scum(not to mention ignoring me and constantly repeating yourself) because it otherwise becomes obvious that you are scum.
See, I think you don't believe me because you're scum and you have no reason to believe me. I think you deliberately picked me to be part of your team because of my response to your initial post, thinking that I would be a good "fall guy" for when the team failed. I think you're scum, and I thought that yesterday.
See, you claim that it's scummy to vote against a team with myself on it. However, imagine the following situation: A day 1 team is proposed, and I am on it, but so is a very very scummy player. A player so scummy that I actually think that the team is more likely to fail than normal, even taking into account that I am a town player. Naturally, I vote against the team.
Then, said player and his scumbuddy hammer home the discussion, ending Day 1 and sending us to the night phase.
If I were a scum player, and you are not a scum player, and you pick me for the team, it's true I could play some longwinded game of "oh hey guys I think radfield is scum, i'm gonna nayvote this team." I could stick my neck out for no real reason and take on these arguments, drawing a great deal of attention to myself. I don't think that would make a lot of sense though. A mafia player who had the good fortune to get picked day1 certainly wouldn't vote against his own team. If he was trying to abdicate his responsability for the vote, he'd just not vote at all. And he certainly wouldn't pick out one guy and label him scummy.
On the other hand, if I'm a town player, I identified a bad team and voted nay on it, even though I was on it, because I want town to succeed.
Oh, hey, that actually sounds like a simple, clear, and non-convoluted explanation for why my actions make sense!
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On December 30 2011 19:13 Blazinghand wrote: Like, the idea that a scummy Jackal hammer cutting short our D1 discussion and sending a failed team on the first mission was a net positive is basically false. And just what the hell was there to discuss? The weather? Your moms chocolate chip cookie recipe? The alignment of Uranus and Mars?????? What was there to discuss? I cut short a blabbering repetition of mindless babble that was going to last for days. Now we know that either you Palmar or Radfield are scum. Perhaps more. Probably not but perhaps. You were on that team and you're crying about it more than anybody. Yet you made no mention of it until Palmar did. Why? Because you're seizing an opportunity to duck out of the spotlight. Ya I hammered it. Don't like it? Tough shit.
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On December 31 2011 02:23 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 22:12 Radfield wrote:The fact that you are harping on these things when they not remotely scummy makes you look very very bad. I'm not talking about the REASON I disliked his team. The fact that I disliked his team doesn't make him scummy-- granted, I disliked his team because I found HIM scummy, but that's not why he's scummy. I don't believe you. I don't think you found me scummy at all until after I proposed the team. A team which you were a part of, and a team which you knew would fail. You voted against a Day 1 team including yourself which is absurdly scummy. You are desperately trying to paint me as scum(not to mention ignoring me and constantly repeating yourself) because it otherwise becomes obvious that you are scum. See, I think you don't believe me because you're scum and you have no reason to believe me. I think you deliberately picked me to be part of your team because of my response to your initial post, thinking that I would be a good "fall guy" for when the team failed. I think you're scum, and I thought that yesterday. See, you claim that it's scummy to vote against a team with myself on it. However, imagine the following situation: A day 1 team is proposed, and I am on it, but so is a very very scummy player. A player so scummy that I actually think that the team is more likely to fail than normal, even taking into account that I am a town player. Naturally, I vote against the team. Then, said player and his scumbuddy hammer home the discussion, ending Day 1 and sending us to the night phase. If I were a scum player, and you are not a scum player, and you pick me for the team, it's true I could play some longwinded game of "oh hey guys I think radfield is scum, i'm gonna nayvote this team." I could stick my neck out for no real reason and take on these arguments, drawing a great deal of attention to myself. I don't think that would make a lot of sense though. A mafia player who had the good fortune to get picked day1 certainly wouldn't vote against his own team. If he was trying to abdicate his responsability for the vote, he'd just not vote at all. And he certainly wouldn't pick out one guy and label him scummy. On the other hand, if I'm a town player,I identified a bad team and voted nay on it, even though I was on it, because I want town to succeed. Oh, hey, that actually sounds like a simple, clear, and non-convoluted explanation for why my actions make sense! I don't need to speculate on my towniness.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Jackal, a team with 1 mafia player is the worst possibility for an N1 team, and provides the least information. Ideally an N1 team will have 2-3 mafia players or 0 mafia players. You hammered home a terrible team. The fact of the matter is, My filter is like 4-5 pages long because I AM STAYING IN THE SPOTLIGHT. The idea that I'm trying to avoid attention is patently ridiculous. I love attention.
But yeah you're basically scum for hammering that. I mean you could also be super terrible but *I* think you're scum and until you can convince me otherwise I will nay any team proposed by you or containing you.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 31 2011 02:34 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 02:23 Blazinghand wrote:On December 30 2011 22:12 Radfield wrote:The fact that you are harping on these things when they not remotely scummy makes you look very very bad. I'm not talking about the REASON I disliked his team. The fact that I disliked his team doesn't make him scummy-- granted, I disliked his team because I found HIM scummy, but that's not why he's scummy. I don't believe you. I don't think you found me scummy at all until after I proposed the team. A team which you were a part of, and a team which you knew would fail. You voted against a Day 1 team including yourself which is absurdly scummy. You are desperately trying to paint me as scum(not to mention ignoring me and constantly repeating yourself) because it otherwise becomes obvious that you are scum. See, I think you don't believe me because you're scum and you have no reason to believe me. I think you deliberately picked me to be part of your team because of my response to your initial post, thinking that I would be a good "fall guy" for when the team failed. I think you're scum, and I thought that yesterday. See, you claim that it's scummy to vote against a team with myself on it. However, imagine the following situation: A day 1 team is proposed, and I am on it, but so is a very very scummy player. A player so scummy that I actually think that the team is more likely to fail than normal, even taking into account that I am a town player. Naturally, I vote against the team. Then, said player and his scumbuddy hammer home the discussion, ending Day 1 and sending us to the night phase. If I were a scum player, and you are not a scum player, and you pick me for the team, it's true I could play some longwinded game of "oh hey guys I think radfield is scum, i'm gonna nayvote this team." I could stick my neck out for no real reason and take on these arguments, drawing a great deal of attention to myself. I don't think that would make a lot of sense though. A mafia player who had the good fortune to get picked day1 certainly wouldn't vote against his own team. If he was trying to abdicate his responsability for the vote, he'd just not vote at all. And he certainly wouldn't pick out one guy and label him scummy. On the other hand, if I'm a town player,I identified a bad team and voted nay on it, even though I was on it, because I want town to succeed. Oh, hey, that actually sounds like a simple, clear, and non-convoluted explanation for why my actions make sense! I don't need to speculate on my towniness.
Correction: you have not chosen to defend yourself. You shun the spotlight because you're worried about being revealed for what you are.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Alright gents im going mobile. Will respond occadionally. I breathlessly await the new team suggeston
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On December 31 2011 02:36 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 02:34 Jackal58 wrote:On December 31 2011 02:23 Blazinghand wrote:On December 30 2011 22:12 Radfield wrote:The fact that you are harping on these things when they not remotely scummy makes you look very very bad. I'm not talking about the REASON I disliked his team. The fact that I disliked his team doesn't make him scummy-- granted, I disliked his team because I found HIM scummy, but that's not why he's scummy. I don't believe you. I don't think you found me scummy at all until after I proposed the team. A team which you were a part of, and a team which you knew would fail. You voted against a Day 1 team including yourself which is absurdly scummy. You are desperately trying to paint me as scum(not to mention ignoring me and constantly repeating yourself) because it otherwise becomes obvious that you are scum. See, I think you don't believe me because you're scum and you have no reason to believe me. I think you deliberately picked me to be part of your team because of my response to your initial post, thinking that I would be a good "fall guy" for when the team failed. I think you're scum, and I thought that yesterday. See, you claim that it's scummy to vote against a team with myself on it. However, imagine the following situation: A day 1 team is proposed, and I am on it, but so is a very very scummy player. A player so scummy that I actually think that the team is more likely to fail than normal, even taking into account that I am a town player. Naturally, I vote against the team. Then, said player and his scumbuddy hammer home the discussion, ending Day 1 and sending us to the night phase. If I were a scum player, and you are not a scum player, and you pick me for the team, it's true I could play some longwinded game of "oh hey guys I think radfield is scum, i'm gonna nayvote this team." I could stick my neck out for no real reason and take on these arguments, drawing a great deal of attention to myself. I don't think that would make a lot of sense though. A mafia player who had the good fortune to get picked day1 certainly wouldn't vote against his own team. If he was trying to abdicate his responsability for the vote, he'd just not vote at all. And he certainly wouldn't pick out one guy and label him scummy. On the other hand, if I'm a town player,I identified a bad team and voted nay on it, even though I was on it, because I want town to succeed. Oh, hey, that actually sounds like a simple, clear, and non-convoluted explanation for why my actions make sense! I don't need to speculate on my towniness. Correction: you have not chosen to defend yourself. You shun the spotlight because you're worried about being revealed for what you are. I have nothing to defend myself against. Again I ask "What discussion did I halt"? There was none.
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Alright guys I'm thinking of a team consisting of me, toad, palmar, and VE.
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United States22154 Posts
On December 31 2011 02:32 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 19:13 Blazinghand wrote: Like, the idea that a scummy Jackal hammer cutting short our D1 discussion and sending a failed team on the first mission was a net positive is basically false. And just what the hell was there to discuss? The weather? Your moms chocolate chip cookie recipe? The alignment of Uranus and Mars?????? I've always found that the position of mars and the density of chocolate chip cookies per liter of dough are vital measurements used in finding scum using the Xerix table...
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 31 2011 02:23 Blazinghand wrote:
See, you claim that it's scummy to vote against a team with myself on it. However, imagine the following situation: A day 1 team is proposed, and I am on it, but so is a very very scummy player. A player so scummy that I actually think that the team is more likely to fail than normal, even taking into account that I am a town player. Naturally, I vote against the team.
Before I proposed my team, what made me very very scummy? Please elaborate.
If I were a scum player, and you are not a scum player, and you pick me for the team, it's true I could play some longwinded game of "oh hey guys I think radfield is scum, i'm gonna nayvote this team." I could stick my neck out for no real reason and take on these arguments, drawing a great deal of attention to myself. I don't think that would make a lot of sense though. A mafia player who had the good fortune to get picked day1 certainly wouldn't vote against his own team. If he was trying to abdicate his responsability for the vote, he'd just not vote at all. And he certainly wouldn't pick out one guy and label him scummy.
On the other hand, if I'm a town player, I identified a bad team and voted nay on it, even though I was on it, because I want town to succeed.
Oh, hey, that actually sounds like a simple, clear, and non-convoluted explanation for why my actions make sense!
Allow me to lay out a simple, clear and non-convoluted explanation for your actions as scum:
You are scum, you are placed on the Day 1 team, knowing you will sabotage the mission and that it will fail you immediately seek to both distance yourself from the team, while simultaneously casting suspicion on another player on the mission.
It's pretty classic scum play actually. Townie is getting lynched, scum pops in towards the end and yells about how dumb the lynch is and how said player is obviously town.
10:26 Radfield proposes a team 10:29 Blazinghand questions the reasons for the team 10:31 Radfield posts his reasons for his team
Over the next 3 hours 3 people vote yes for my team. I had not yet voted so that makes it already at 4 votes, making the team virtually assured. At this point Blazinghand returns to the thread and votes against my team calling me scummy. Keep in mind at this point the team is pretty much already assured to go through.
Blazinghand then makes a number of posts, but none of them related to the team or voting. In fact, other than when he is directly asked by Greymist he does not mention the team. He is obviously around in the thread(answers greymist 10 minutes after the question is asked) but is not trying to stop players from voting for my team.
Think about this for a second. Blazinghand is sure that I am OBVIOUS scum. So sure is he that I am scum, he is voting against a team which includes himself on Day 1. Yet despite his sureness, he makes absolutely no effort to dissuade other players from voting through my team. This is a team he is almost sure is going to fail, yet he waits for 3 votes before mentioning in passing that he will not vote for my team. Even after he states his 'nay' intention he makes no effort to halt the team from getting passed.
Blazinghand is a spy
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 31 2011 03:55 GreYMisT wrote: Alright guys I'm thinking of a team consisting of me, toad, palmar, and VE.
I am ok with this team, though I would prefer myself and Palmar to go on the mission together. I think there was only 1 spy Day 1, and I'm pretty sure it was blazinghand
Assuming no communication or breadcrumbing, consider the thought process with 2 spies on the day 1 mission. You absolutely cannot risk both sabotaging the mission, as that exposes 2 of 3 players as spies, which loses the game for spies. Therefore if we had two spies on the first mission we would likely have succeeded in our mission.
Given this, I would like to see both Palmar and Myself go on the Day 2 mission. Other than that I am fine with any two of those three, but would prefer toad and VE.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Toad you are next in line. Are you willing to run Radfield, Toad, Palmar and VE?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
And you think for scum thats a more reasonabke strst than notbpost and its also more reasonabke than "blazinghand is a baller and figured stuff out day 1" welk i think my actions speak for themselves i will asdress your travestu of a post wheni get home
I find greys team to be reasonable and probably rhe best team that csn be put tofether without me on it so i willvote yay
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Yo greymist A ) ir team is formatyed wrong u nwed to repost it i think B) y u no vote own team? I unvote you
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
You need to use a zbot-readable format so right noe no ody yayvote him until he has set his team bexcause even though he is probs town he could be going for some sneaky switch.
Also i preemptive nayvote rad while at it
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You still on that blazing? Whoever puts a team forward is obviously going to vote for it, so it's a bit hard to remember to do sometimes.
And rad, I feel that VE is as likely town as you are at this point, and I feel strongly that toad and palmar at the moment are town. This is the reason just these 4 appear on my team. I'm going to reformat my team post now.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I didny say you were scum just aski.g why you not yayvote self but i wil wait for you to wprk out uour voting thread issues
When you do i will yayvote
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Why did you not try to persuade other players to vote nay against my team?
Why, when you were obviously around and apparently already thought I was scum, did you wait 3 hours before nay voting my team?
Why have you ignored this post that I made: post. I say ignore, because you have not called me a liar, and you keep pretending I haven't responded to that argument.
Why did you only post your reasons for nay voting my team when you got called out by Greymist? You state I was obvious scum at that point yet you did nothing to stop my team from going through. In fact it appears you would never have posted in depth your reasons for voting against my team unless greymist had called you out. Do you deny that?
Please don't respond to this unless:
a) you are using a keyboard
or
b) you are willing to proofread your post
I am willing to wait.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 31 2011 05:09 GreYMisT wrote: You still on that blazing? Whoever puts a team forward is obviously going to vote for it, so it's a bit hard to remember to do sometimes.
And rad, I feel that VE is as likely town as you are at this point, and I feel strongly that toad and palmar at the moment are town. This is the reason just these 4 appear on my team. I'm going to reformat my team post now.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with your team, but would like to swap you out for me. Hope you understand
If Toad is willing to run me, him, palmar and VE I will nay vote you and yay vote him.
If he is not willing to run that team than I will approve your team, as I feel it is second best. However, I admit I am not particularly willing to yay vote a team that has blazinghand's support...
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 31 2011 05:05 Blazinghand wrote: You need to use a zbot-readable format so right noe no ody yayvote him until he has set his team bexcause even though he is probs town he could be going for some sneaky switch.
Ridiculous. No townie should be running with this kind of train of thought.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 31 2011 05:14 Radfield wrote:Why did you not try to persuade other players to vote nay against my team? Why, when you were obviously around and apparently already thought I was scum, did you wait 3 hours before nay voting my team? Why have you ignored this post that I made: post. I say ignore, because you have not called me a liar, and you keep pretending I haven't responded to that argument. Why did you only post your reasons for nay voting my team when you got called out by Greymist? You state I was obvious scum at that point yet you did nothing to stop my team from going through. In fact it appears you would never have posted in depth your reasons for voting against my team unless greymist had called you out. Do you deny that?
Radfields strat is to ignore my questions and make other questions
fine i will wait for keyboard to respond to you
greymist you got a yayvote from me but ur slef-yayvote post is miformatted
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 31 2011 05:17 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 05:09 GreYMisT wrote: You still on that blazing? Whoever puts a team forward is obviously going to vote for it, so it's a bit hard to remember to do sometimes.
And rad, I feel that VE is as likely town as you are at this point, and I feel strongly that toad and palmar at the moment are town. This is the reason just these 4 appear on my team. I'm going to reformat my team post now. Yeah, I pretty much agree with your team, but would like to swap you out for me. Hope you understand If Toad is willing to run me, him, palmar and VE I will nay vote you and yay vote him. If he is not willing to run that team than I will approve your team, as I feel it is second best. However, I admit I am not particularly willing to yay vote a team that has blazinghand's support...
what is this if you are like "oh i think this team is god but i would swap gm 4 me" and it's like "hurr durr i am scum and want excuse to nayvote so i will antiparrot bh"
scum move imo
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I'm going to yay this team.
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Rad im not going to propose a team without me on it, that doesnt make sense from my perspective.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
yeah but it makes sense from the "rad is scum" perspective i don't know if your pauig attn but evertthing rad says doesnt makr sense
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On December 31 2011 05:28 Blazinghand wrote: yeah but it makes sense from the "rad is scum" perspective i don't know if your pauig attn but evertthing rad says doesnt makr sense
keyboard/proofread
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 31 2011 05:29 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 05:28 Blazinghand wrote: yeah but it makes sense from the "rad is scum" perspective i don't know if your pauig attn but evertthing rad says doesnt makr sense keyboard/proofread
that @ all ur voting post
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On December 31 2011 05:30 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 05:29 GreYMisT wrote:On December 31 2011 05:28 Blazinghand wrote: yeah but it makes sense from the "rad is scum" perspective i don't know if your pauig attn but evertthing rad says doesnt makr sense keyboard/proofread that @ all ur voting post
sry, im used to having to type ##Vote: and not ##Vote with no ":"
also ive been on my phone for the past 2 hours, whose posts are more legible?
In any case I'm done asking you to post legibly.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 31 2011 05:25 GreYMisT wrote: Rad im not going to propose a team without me on it, that doesnt make sense from my perspective.
I know it doesn't and chances are I will approve this team. But I do think it makes sense to put both me and Palmar in this mission.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
thats fair let me make thhat legible for you
On December 31 2011 05:28 Blazinghand wrote:
Indeed you make a fair point; let me note however that it makes sense from the "rad is scum" perspective. I don't know if you, good sir, have been paying much attention, but in my opinion many things radfield says do not make sense, as part of an intentional attempt to obfuscate our discussions
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 31 2011 05:20 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 05:14 Radfield wrote:Why did you not try to persuade other players to vote nay against my team? Why, when you were obviously around and apparently already thought I was scum, did you wait 3 hours before nay voting my team? Why have you ignored this post that I made: post. I say ignore, because you have not called me a liar, and you keep pretending I haven't responded to that argument. Why did you only post your reasons for nay voting my team when you got called out by Greymist? You state I was obvious scum at that point yet you did nothing to stop my team from going through. In fact it appears you would never have posted in depth your reasons for voting against my team unless greymist had called you out. Do you deny that? Radfields strat is to ignore my questions and make other questions fine i will wait for keyboard to respond to you greymist you got a yayvote from me but ur slef-yayvote post is miformatted
I just went over all your posts in the last 24 hours. That is over 30 posts, and none of them pose me any real questions(other than rhetorical questions). If you had important questions for me that went unanswered before that, 24 hours and 30 posts was enough time to re-ask them if you really cared.
If you actually have questions, feel free to ask.
Am I the only one who finds blazinghand over-the-top scummy?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
VE should be posting more
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On December 31 2011 02:23 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 22:12 Radfield wrote:The fact that you are harping on these things when they not remotely scummy makes you look very very bad. I'm not talking about the REASON I disliked his team. The fact that I disliked his team doesn't make him scummy-- granted, I disliked his team because I found HIM scummy, but that's not why he's scummy. I don't believe you. I don't think you found me scummy at all until after I proposed the team. A team which you were a part of, and a team which you knew would fail. You voted against a Day 1 team including yourself which is absurdly scummy. You are desperately trying to paint me as scum(not to mention ignoring me and constantly repeating yourself) because it otherwise becomes obvious that you are scum. See, I think you don't believe me because you're scum and you have no reason to believe me. I think you deliberately picked me to be part of your team because of my response to your initial post, thinking that I would be a good "fall guy" for when the team failed. I think you're scum, and I thought that yesterday. See, you claim that it's scummy to vote against a team with myself on it. However, imagine the following situation: A day 1 team is proposed, and I am on it, but so is a very very scummy player. A player so scummy that I actually think that the team is more likely to fail than normal, even taking into account that I am a town player. Naturally, I vote against the team. Then, said player and his scumbuddy hammer home the discussion, ending Day 1 and sending us to the night phase. If I were a scum player, and you are not a scum player, and you pick me for the team, it's true I could play some longwinded game of "oh hey guys I think radfield is scum, i'm gonna nayvote this team." I could stick my neck out for no real reason and take on these arguments, drawing a great deal of attention to myself. I don't think that would make a lot of sense though. A mafia player who had the good fortune to get picked day1 certainly wouldn't vote against his own team. If he was trying to abdicate his responsability for the vote, he'd just not vote at all. And he certainly wouldn't pick out one guy and label him scummy. On the other hand, if I'm a town player, I identified a bad team and voted nay on it, even though I was on it, because I want town to succeed. Oh, hey, that actually sounds like a simple, clear, and non-convoluted explanation for why my actions make sense!
Your response is a complicated vague convoluted explanation for my actions:
On December 31 2011 04:40 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 02:23 Blazinghand wrote:
See, you claim that it's scummy to vote against a team with myself on it. However, imagine the following situation: A day 1 team is proposed, and I am on it, but so is a very very scummy player. A player so scummy that I actually think that the team is more likely to fail than normal, even taking into account that I am a town player. Naturally, I vote against the team. Before I proposed my team, what made me very very scummy? Please elaborate. Show nested quote + If I were a scum player, and you are not a scum player, and you pick me for the team, it's true I could play some longwinded game of "oh hey guys I think radfield is scum, i'm gonna nayvote this team." I could stick my neck out for no real reason and take on these arguments, drawing a great deal of attention to myself. I don't think that would make a lot of sense though. A mafia player who had the good fortune to get picked day1 certainly wouldn't vote against his own team. If he was trying to abdicate his responsability for the vote, he'd just not vote at all. And he certainly wouldn't pick out one guy and label him scummy.
On the other hand, if I'm a town player, I identified a bad team and voted nay on it, even though I was on it, because I want town to succeed.
Oh, hey, that actually sounds like a simple, clear, and non-convoluted explanation for why my actions make sense!
Allow me to lay out a simple, clear and non-convoluted explanation for your actions as scum: You are scum, you are placed on the Day 1 team, knowing you will sabotage the mission and that it will fail you immediately seek to both distance yourself from the team, while simultaneously casting suspicion on another player on the mission. It's pretty classic scum play actually. Townie is getting lynched, scum pops in towards the end and yells about how dumb the lynch is and how said player is obviously town. 10:26 Radfield proposes a team 10:29 Blazinghand questions the reasons for the team 10:31 Radfield posts his reasons for his team Over the next 3 hours 3 people vote yes for my team. I had not yet voted so that makes it already at 4 votes, making the team virtually assured. At this point Blazinghand returns to the thread and votes against my team calling me scummy. Keep in mind at this point the team is pretty much already assured to go through. Blazinghand then makes a number of posts, but none of them related to the team or voting. In fact, other than when he is directly asked by Greymist he does not mention the team. He is obviously around in the thread(answers greymist 10 minutes after the question is asked) but is not trying to stop players from voting for my team. Think about this for a second. Blazinghand is sure that I am OBVIOUS scum. So sure is he that I am scum, he is voting against a team which includes himself on Day 1. Yet despite his sureness, he makes absolutely no effort to dissuade other players from voting through my team. This is a team he is almost sure is going to fail, yet he waits for 3 votes before mentioning in passing that he will not vote for my team. Even after he states his 'nay' intention he makes no effort to halt the team from getting passed. Blazinghand is a spy
You seriously think that's a legit response? You are aware the townspeople in this thread are not the chief producers of warm linens and undergarments. They are not notorious for their fluffy hair and affinity with semi-nomadic herders. Basically what im saying is: they are not sheep.
Anyone who reads your post and thinks "oh yes this is a good strat that scum would do and this would be a reasonable choice" is clearly an idiot, or hasn't though things through. If you want a good strat for scum check out jackal's weaving and dodging
You are probably the only one who finds me over-the-top scummy, because any reasonable person is thinking "wait blazinghand in addition to being generally sexy, suave, likeable, and basically a great guy, is making some good points here. Let me think about this.
Like, how is it not the best explanation that I 1) fingers you as scum 2) is like "hey guys lets think about this before voting 3) try to stop the quickhammer and you're like "hey man why you not try to stop it harder" well you know what I did what I could. maybe I could have done better but I didn't think people would be all over that terrible team like a dog on a butt-flavored biscuit.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
plz escuse the formatting its kinda hard to go back in the mobile app. im gonna eat some lunch and ill check back home in a few hours for a keyboard response. all this spell check is taking too long
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Okay, I've been rereading the first day's interactions to try to establish with as much confidence as possible that there was only one spy on the mission (so that later conclusions based upon this assumption can be made with more confidence), but what I find is that it's entirely possible that two on the team were spies, namely Radfield and Blazinghand.
Consider the sequence of events.
On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote: Team: Radfield (yourself, who is confirmed town to you), plus Zona (for example), plus someone who gives off a solid town read like, say, Blazinghand. If the mission fails, you can reasonably say "well I think this was Zona" (though others will not be able to do so). The beauty of this though is, assuming you're right about the "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad", If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
(a few more back and forth posts between the two I will discuss later)
On December 27 2011 10:26 Radfield wrote: OK, I'm just going to propose a team then.
Myself Palmar Blazinghand
It obviously goes against my initial post, but that first post was really just to get things kicking.
Palmar pointed out Blazinghand's little "WIFOM alert" portion, but it's the sequence of events that caught my eye. Notice that Radfield "goes against his intial post" after Blazinghand's post and then includes Blazinghand in his team.
However, what's damning is that Radfield accepts Blazinghand's poor logic in the process. Here are the back and forth posts.
On December 27 2011 06:06 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 03:15 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1? I don't see why those would be mutually exclusive. In fact, I see those as the same thing. A successful mission gives is 3 probable towns, whereas a failed mission just says "well someone among these three is mafia but we don't know who ._." So I'd say: yes, gathering d1 info by getting a successful mission is the most important. Well, what you were saying earlier is that if I think 1 of Zona and Palmar is scum, it makes the most sense to actually take one of those players along. That would decrease our odds of victory, but increase our information potential. Yes? Radfield has (implicitly) come to the correct conclusion ("decrease our odds of victory") here that if he believes one of Palmar/Zona/himself is a spy, then taking one more of us along with himself, if he is town, (so a 50/50 chance that myself or Palmar is a spy) is worse than picking from the rest, where the chances would be 33%.
On December 27 2011 06:16 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:06 Radfield wrote:On December 27 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 03:15 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1? I don't see why those would be mutually exclusive. In fact, I see those as the same thing. A successful mission gives is 3 probable towns, whereas a failed mission just says "well someone among these three is mafia but we don't know who ._." So I'd say: yes, gathering d1 info by getting a successful mission is the most important. Well, what you were saying earlier is that if I think 1 of Zona and Palmar is scum, it makes the most sense to actually take one of those players along. That would decrease our odds of victory, but increase our information potential. Yes? Indeed. But this is only a viable tactic because you personally know that you are not scum. I'm not the current leader, so I would gain no additional information from you selecting one of Zona/Palmar to come with you, even assuming I shared your thought that 1 of Zona/Palmar/Radfield is scum, because *I* can't rule *you* out. So with my knowledge base, with your assumption of 1 of Zona/Palm/Rad being scum, I actually would not want you to pick 2 from that group, but rather, to pick me, since I myself know I am not scum, and I want to maximize our success rate. Effectively, the leader's D1 is fundamentally different from a non-leader's D1, because the leader knows his alignment and is select the team. Since I'm currently not the leader, I think we should maximize win rate which will maximize info gained. You as the leader are not working with the same information I am, so you will have a different motivation. Here, Blazinghand reiterates his strategy, which he states "maximize win rate" (it does NOT), and talks about "You as the leader"..."will have different motivation."
On December 27 2011 06:21 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:17 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 06:06 Radfield wrote:On December 27 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 03:15 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1? I don't see why those would be mutually exclusive. In fact, I see those as the same thing. A successful mission gives is 3 probable towns, whereas a failed mission just says "well someone among these three is mafia but we don't know who ._." So I'd say: yes, gathering d1 info by getting a successful mission is the most important. Well, what you were saying earlier is that if I think 1 of Zona and Palmar is scum, it makes the most sense to actually take one of those players along. That would decrease our odds of victory, but increase our information potential. Yes? That's exactly my point. From what blazinghand said earlier it looks like he wants us to sacrifice d1 for information gain because if he was suggesting that if rad thinks zona or palmar are scum then he should take one of them to get clear information. However that "clear" information is only information for rad because he might know his alignment but how am I supposed to know if he's not the spy while both zona and palmar are town? So that "clear" information is really only clear information for rad (if at all) and increases the chances of being blocked d1. At the same time we could just get screwed big time if the waynie (idea = send rad + zona/palmar + waynie) turns out to be a spy. So even for rad the information isn't granted at all because he could end up thinking zona is a spy when sending zona along with him while in realitiy the 3rd guy was the spy. To sum it up: I don't think there is anything like granted information out of d1 therefore I think we should try to minimize the chances of getting sabotaged therefore I don't like your "send zona or palmar to get clear information" at all. That's why I what blazinghand was about to suggest earlier. ._. we only really gain information if the mission is successful. If the mission fails all we know is "someone of these three is scum" the point of that post is that Radfield is not acting optimally given his assumptions, not "oh we should do X" because I think Radfield's assumptions are wrong anyways. I'm just pointing otu that given what he's said, it's a terrible idea to pre-vote Yay on him and you should unvote. Blazinghand here even states that "we only really gain information if the mission is successful" - while suggesting a strategy which does NOT maximize the chances of success. At the very least, Radfield has realized this.
And after that, Radfield proposes his team, which if you'll notice, follows Blazinghand's proposed strategy. When asked why he picked it, he states:
On December 27 2011 10:31 Radfield wrote: yay or nay.
Here is my reasoning.
Palmar's only post, while brief, is an important piece of advice and not one I had even considered.
Blazinghand seems townish and willing to reason out and his posting is sound.
I know myself to be town. Honestly, any Day 1 leader who DID NOT put themselves into the first mission would be auto-scum as far as I can tell. It would be blatantly playing against your win-con. In fact, it seems like leaders at every stage of mission will be putting themselves in. No? He does NOT acknowledge that he is following precisely what Blazinghand has proposed. And worse, I expect Radfield to realize that Blazinghand's proposal does NOT maximize the chances of success given the assumptions, which both of them seem to accept without questioning.
After the N1 failure, both players basically attack each other (while emphasizing the "one spy on day 1" idea) without really considering the possibility that Palmar is the spy.
Actually, the more I reread, the more convinced I am that Radfield and Blazinghand are both spies. However, I will now go back and assume each of the Night 1 team members is the only scum on the team, and see if posts make sense under that assumption.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
if thats the case vote yay for Bluemists team then right?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
at least someone thinking both me and rad are spies is better than someone thinking i am the sole spy-- zona wont make the mistake of sending rad on a mission
That being said this is a great case against rad.
also that whole thing was "assuming rad's assumption was true" but i do not think it is true
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Actually, no. Because if I'm correct that you're a spy, then your support of the team actually indicates it's very possible that the last spy is in that team.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
The idea that I, as a spy, would select another spy for mission 1 is absurd. You should do something more productive with your time zona.
Who do you want on today's mission?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I think the key we're missing here is that Radfield Zona Jackal is the spy team
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Zona, do you think its more likely, in your scenario where the final spy is on my team, that VE or Toad is the remaining spy?
Rad has wanted to nay vote my team, suggesting I take myself off it and put him on, something that goes against the general consensus earlier of putting the current leader into the team which he himself put forward.
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On December 31 2011 07:07 Blazinghand wrote: I think the key we're missing here is that Radfield Zona Jackal is the spy team
Simply amazing, and you managed to do it without the need for reasoning too.
bravo, just...bravo.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I've put srs reasonign for radfield and jackal-- lots of reasoning.
Zona you think me + rad are spy right... but... if we are "pretending" to disagree one of us will be yay and one will be nay on most teams am i correct? each of us will say "wellt he other guy is a spy so i dont' like teams he likes" but then why in this case is it that the team is no good? if radfield were yay and I were nay would it be good? or do we both need to vote nay on a team for it to match your approval?
In fact if your theory is correct palmsr is town right?? I dont see why you votr nay
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 31 2011 07:08 GreYMisT wrote: Zona, do you think its more likely, in your scenario where the final spy is on my team, that VE or Toad is the remaining spy?
Rad has wanted to nay vote my team, suggesting I take myself off it and put him on, something that goes against the general consensus earlier of putting the current leader into the team which he himself put forward.
I actually said I would probably vote for your team, unless toad was willing to run with the team I put forward.
Lets be friends Greymist, no one else here right now is making sense
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Blazinghand, are you going to answer any of the questions I have asked you?
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On December 31 2011 07:07 Blazinghand wrote: I think the key we're missing here is that Radfield Zona Jackal is the spy team Yer funny. You make more sense when you type with your nose.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Man im still not home gimme a goddamn break. Somr ppl got stuff to do you know
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I yayed, so be warned next yay voter, you'll solidify the team.
As I mentioned before, I like Palmar and VE as townreads.
I really was considering Greymist on my first team, but he had some posts that I thought were of ambiguous content and alignment. I give him a slight townread.
Toad is the sketchiest person on the team, in my opinion, but really he is just a null for me and I prefer him over Blazinghand or Jackal.
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On December 31 2011 08:07 TruthBringer wrote: I yayed, so be warned next yay voter, you'll solidify the team.
As I mentioned before, I like Palmar and VE as townreads.
I really was considering Greymist on my first team, but he had some posts that I thought were of ambiguous content and alignment. I give him a slight townread.
Toad is the sketchiest person on the team, in my opinion, but really he is just a null for me and I prefer him over Blazinghand or Jackal. I'm ok with all but Palmar and since you all think I'm scum anyways Imma gonna hammer it again.
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Team Accepted!
A team consisting of Toadesstern, Palmar, GreYMisT and VisceraEyes has been accepted for this mission!
Final vote count: Yays: Blazinghand Palmar GreYMisT TruthBringer Jackal58 Nays:
Please send in your night actions to Forumite and prplhz
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- Night 2 - - The noble fruits of our orchards shall not sate the thirst of the invaders. We would rather see them turned to ashes! Set the vineyards on fire, show them our resolve!
- Well, of course, sir, we will, sir, but wouldn´t it be better to show our resolve after the harvest?
The night ends in 25 hours, at 01:00 GMT (+00:00), or 10:00 KST 1st of January.
Day 3 will begin with Toadesstern as leader.
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On December 31 2011 04:56 Radfield wrote: Toad you are next in line. Are you willing to run Radfield, Toad, Palmar and VE?
yeah that would have been the team I put up for discussion. Sry I wasn't around the last 8 hours or so Haven't slept yesterday, so I stayed up all day until 8pm being as sleepy as you can get and now I'm awake at 3:30 am again \o/
Still catching up and repsonding to everything I see while doing so.
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EBWOP: Oh team accepted. Sry that means I won't answer everything now and leave it for tomorrow. Just to make this clear because I just said I will respond to everything and now I'm not which would look strange without reasoning.
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Daypost will be delayed about 2 hours (to 01:00 GMT (+00:00)) due to New Year´s Eve celebration. Cheers!
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- Day 3 -Mission Failure! Something was wrong. It took a trained eye and a suspicious mind to notice, but the signs were unmistakeable. The normally docile guards at the checkpoint were alert and inquisitive. There were more cars than usual on the roads, both transporting troops, and civilian informers. It was obvious that they had been sold out from the start. Anyone else would have given up allready, but they were desperate. Given the circumstances they were lucky to get out alive.
Mission 2 suffered one sabotage attempt, and failed!
Happy New Year!
Mission 3 require 4 participants!
Toadestern is the first leader.
The day ends in just under 4 days, at 23:00 GMT (+00:00), or 08:00 KST the 5th of January, 2011.
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Damnit. Either the spies are pretty lucky only having one member sabatoge both nights, or this one only had one member as well. In any case I think the next mission should not include palmar, who has been the only continuous factor between the 2 failed missions.
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Yeah palmar will be a nogo for me. I'm still thinking about our possibilities. My idea right now would be just swapping out palmar with rad which would be a team like: Toad + Rad + Greymist + VE which looks good to me. However, if palmar ist NOT the spy in our teams one of those 2 other guys has to be a spy. It all comes down to wether Palmar really is the spy that failed d1 and d2 or if he's not
Let's put it that way. Rad and I am the only two that are engraved in stone for me right now. Obviously I will pick myself and because rad was on failure-d1 and was NOT on failure-d2 which looks good for him I'm going to send him as well. I'm probably more likely to swap out VE than greymist atm unless someone got a pretty good explanation why I should swap greymist. instead / as well. However I'm lacking townish looking people
Zona doesen't exactly look awesome but with what happened now zona might be an alternative. Jackal58 is just a null. I think he said he trusts me as well which is a good sign for me. Blazinghand actually looks better now with what happened because if Palmar is suspicious, BH is obviously a little less suspicious but still not really an alternative I guess. And finally Truthbringer. Looks to be a new guy but other than that I'm not really comfortable judging him. I'm leaning nooby-townie on him and he said something along the lines that I'm weird looking I think.
So if I have to swap someone out I'd probably replace the guy with Zona right now. That is everyone on top of swapping Palmar <-> Rad. Give me a couple of hours to think this trough.
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I think you guys are way off. You think it is more likely that Palmar is a spy and Greymist, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes, Radfield, and Blazinghand are all townies?
I think it is more likely that 1 of Radfield and Blazinghand was a spy, and 1 of Greymist, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes is a spy.
In that case, I would say Blazinghand is a spy and Toadesstern is a spy.
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On January 01 2012 12:28 TruthBringer wrote: I think you guys are way off. You think it is more likely that Palmar is a spy and Greymist, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes, Radfield, and Blazinghand are all townies?
I think it is more likely that 1 of Radfield and Blazinghand was a spy, and 1 of Greymist, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes is a spy.
In that case, I would say Blazinghand is a spy and Toadesstern is a spy. So you think BH and I am a spy? I was the guy who started pointing out that BH's first big post looked weird and I kept saying that for a long time I think. Essentially I said BH is (along with you) one of the only 2 people I would NOT be willing to send on a mission d1 and that's why I voted nay d1. You think a spy would put that much effort into getting another spy OFF the team d1?
That's just incredible in pretty much every way unless you think that either Radfield or Palmar were spies as well (you just said they're both town?) because in that scenario I would have tried to get a 1-spy-team instead of a 2-spy-team (which failed if your "theory" is right). So if you really think BH and I am a spy you have to think that one out of Rad+palmar has to be a spy or that I'm a mafia who's trolling his team on purpose because I would not have pushed against BH without a good reason if we both are spies... But then again, do you really think I would push my "teammate" on d1 increasing the chances that people might agree and think he's a spy as well? If that would be true I singlehandedly outet 2 spies as a spy myself. That is just ridicules. Your whole idea really only works if we had 2 spies d1 AND 2 spies d2 and both times spies managed to do it perfectly while pretty much everyone agreed that it's more likly that we only had 1 spy.
Could you do me a favor and tell me who YOU think is townie and why? I'm just going ahead and will be picking the exact opposite. + Show Spoiler +No I'm not but you get my point right?...
My point is, if you think I'm a spy I want to hear a reason instead of just saying "I think you're a spy" and on top of that I want to see a plausible "teammate" because if you think I am a spy saying BH is a spy makes 0 sense and if you think BH is a spy saying Toad is a spy makes 0 sense. This is NOT a "one of those two HAS to be a spy" argument, this is a "those two CAN'T be both spies, at all, Never ever" argument.
Yes this is a big post about how your idea just does not make sense. Yes I am not adressing your issues you have but that's simply because you haven't mentioned a single one. So go ahead, tell me why you think I'm mafia and I will either laugh at you and ignore everything else you're going to post or I'm going to answer them. Depending on my moot because again:
Could you do me a favor and tell me who YOU think is townie and why? I'm just going ahead and will be picking the exact opposite. + Show Spoiler +No I'm not but you get my point right?...
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On January 01 2012 12:28 TruthBringer wrote: I think you guys are way off. You think it is more likely that Palmar is a spy and Greymist, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes, Radfield, and Blazinghand are all townies?
I think it is more likely that 1 of Radfield and Blazinghand was a spy, and 1 of Greymist, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes is a spy.
In that case, I would say Blazinghand is a spy and Toadesstern is a spy.
This post resonates with me. Toad has seemed to me to be kinda iffy with his suspicions. I'm rereading and keeping a particular eye on BH and Toad.
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On day 1, there is so little to judge people's alignment on that someone has to look really, really scummy to reasonably veto the squad that includes them. It will basically never happen that a day 1 squad selection actually gets vetoed. With as scummy as you seemed to think BH was and as scummy as BH seemed to think Radfield was, the team still got the vote 5-2.
So, when you know it is very unlikely the squad will actually be vetoed, it is really easy to gain town credit by voting against a squad that you know will be sabotaged.
You and Blazinghand were the only two to vote against the first day squad.
As far as you going after Blazinghand, well you had to give some reason for voting against the squad and Palmar had said very little, and what little he had said was clearly good for town. Blazinghand was already harping on Radfield's rapid team selection. Plus, Radfield already adequately explained that he did have reasons and they came 5 minutes after his team post. BH was simply an easy scapegoat for you that allowed you to develop town credit after the first mission failed.
I don't know that you are a spy, but I would pick you as a spy over greymist, Palmar, or VE and I would pick BH as a spy over Radfield or Palmar.
As for who I think is town, my top 2 are Palmar and VE.
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On January 01 2012 16:28 TruthBringer wrote: On day 1, there is so little to judge people's alignment on that someone has to look really, really scummy to reasonably veto the squad that includes them. It will basically never happen that a day 1 squad selection actually gets vetoed. With as scummy as you seemed to think BH was and as scummy as BH seemed to think Radfield was, the team still got the vote 5-2.
So, when you know it is very unlikely the squad will actually be vetoed, it is really easy to gain town credit by voting against a squad that you know will be sabotaged.
You and Blazinghand were the only two to vote against the first day squad.
As far as you going after Blazinghand, well you had to give some reason for voting against the squad and Palmar had said very little, and what little he had said was clearly good for town. Blazinghand was already harping on Radfield's rapid team selection. Plus, Radfield already adequately explained that he did have reasons and they came 5 minutes after his team post. BH was simply an easy scapegoat for you that allowed you to develop town credit after the first mission failed.
I don't know that you are a spy, but I would pick you as a spy over greymist, Palmar, or VE and I would pick BH as a spy over Radfield or Palmar.
As for who I think is town, my top 2 are Palmar and VE. so you're basicly saying a townie should yay-vote every team suggested by leader #1 on day #1? Well I'm sorry I'm not agreeing with that. I said I'm not yay-voting a team that got yourself on it for your weird actions early on (actualIy did not say that, but I said it's 2 people behaving weird, one of them being BH and figured the 2nd one is not hard to guess) and I said I'm not going to yay-vote a team suggested by someone who wants to send BH because of this first big post that I still think made no sense. Yes it wasn't a "really scummy"-read, not at all. It was a "probably a coinflip but maybe leaning a little leaning towards scum"-read while everyone else was just a coinflip because noone was talking at all. That's all I had d1 and therefore I nay-voted it because I wanted a team without yourself and BH.
You just haven't even tried to do an educated guess instead you're just rnd-voting by agreeing with team#1 before it was even suggested. You really think we can win this if we only go by math? We need talk to judge people to make an educated guess instead of a plain rnd-vote like you did. People already pointed out that the chances of rnd-teams are as slim as they can get, still you're telling me that questioning people is the wrong way and I'm a spy because I nay-voted a team d1? This is not a some kind of gambling machine. The hosts did not balance this (at least I hope so and apparently the score proves me right) to make it a 50% win chance if we just go by math. You have to try and read people or mafia will win this unless we get really lucky.
You're just trying to get people argueing over each other. You still haven't said a word why you think the way you do. Yes I could be a spy given your information, yes BH could be as well but so could be everyone else on your list and I think there are way more reasonable solutions to the problem "who might be the scum" than suggesting I am a spy who made you all vote the way you did while having multiple spies on a mission who managed to get their shit right every day. You're just trying to start confusion and make people question me while not giving a simple reason why you think I look strange. That's not a bad thing if you really think I am spy for some reason because would mean you're trying to prevent another failure. However as mentioned you're not giving a single reason. That's just leading town towards a rnd-team because everyone is argueing about stuff that has no basis to argue about because there's not a single issue you gave us so far.
Actually I might swap VE as well since you seem to trust him for no specific reason. I can see how palmar looks town with what he posted, still I will not suggest him as he was on two missions that failed. So it's probably going to be something like Toad + Rad + Greymist + (either VE or Zona) I'll be suggesting.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
So, we likely have:
1 of Blazinghand, Palmar, Radfield
1 of Palmar, Greymist, VE, Toad
1 or 2 of Zona, Jackal, Truthbringer (If Palmar is a spy then we have 2 of these last 3.)
I am Town and I'm almost positive Toad is town. I am less sure about Palmar at the moment though. He has been dogging it this game, and contributing much less than he should. I'm not talking about posts or post-length here either, because Palmar can do a lot with a little. However it's holidays so that is less of an indicator than usual. But I am also concerned that he seems somewhat ambivalent to who the scum is (from his perspective) out of me and blazinghand. He has a good enough read on me generally that he should know I am town, and should know blazinghand is scum simply based on blazinghands terrible posting. Yet he has hardly mentioned blazinghand. That said I would still lean towards blazinghand being the scum on Day 1, but I am far less sure than I was.
Palmar, presumably from your perspective one of Greymist, VE and Toad are scum. Please find him for me
I think we should be taking one of zona, Jackal and Truth on this mission. Right now I am inclined to take Truthbringer.
That means Me, Toad, Truth and one more. I need to read some filters first though, and likely will not be doing it today.
Happy New Year Guys!!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Zona, you're doing some weird stuff this game. Please get in here and contribute with A) who you want to see go on this mission, and B) who you think is most scummy.
VE, you are quieter than you should be. From your perspective one of greymist, Toad and Palmar is scum. Who is it? Who else is scum? Who would you send on this mission?
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greymist/toad is one Blazinghand is one Zona/Jackal is one
That leaves our mission team for today as me/you/truth/ve.
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which is also the team I suggested yesterday. I should've just stuck to my guns and went with that one.
I'm leaning more towards toad being the scum from last night's mission. Greymist's position is clearly bad:
On January 01 2012 10:37 GreYMisT wrote: Damnit. Either the spies are pretty lucky only having one member sabatoge both nights, or this one only had one member as well. In any case I think the next mission should not include palmar, who has been the only continuous factor between the 2 failed missions.
But I don't think this makes him scum, this just makes him ignorant and possibly frustrated.
What you guys are forgetting, that barring some silly luck or super convoluted breadcrumbing, there was only 1 spy on each night's mission, which means we technically have a ton of players who are very likely to be town.
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finally, that's all I need, thx palmar :p Out of nowhere you 3 guys (Palmar, Truth, VE) are comming and telling people I'm a spy. Yet noone told me why you think so. Not a single word. This is you three sticking together because I said I'm not going to include palmar again and said I'm going to suggest myself + rad + greymist + a 4th guy while mentioning that I don't like VE's attitude anymore. Those 3 are our spies, all three are suspiciou for a reason and completly out of the blue they're sticking together like that? Just keep dodging them and we win. Guess I was wrong on BH afterall.
##Team: Toadesstern, Radfield, GreYMisT, Zona
Swapped out Palmar for obvious reasons Swapped out VE for obvious reasons and those 4 are town. Zona because even if you don't believe I'm right with truth and VE and you only think that we should not give palmar a chance Zona looks perfectly nice. Greymist still is my 2nd strongest townread after rad now that palmar was on both failed missions.
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yeah, I'm downvoting that team as fast as I possibly can
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Alright, first off - if you're town, you don't place a Yay vote until everything has been discussed. There are three spies, if even two town players place a Yay vote, and the proposed team happens to have 1 or more spies, they hammer and win.
Secondly, you must read what I write even if you feel I might be a spy. Other than Blazinghand and Radfield accusing each other, the other other substantial and comprehensive case that has been presented is my case against those two. I will present it again, in a stronger form, and I want you to read it with an open mind BEFORE you conclude whether I am town or spy.
Palmar, I know you are town (I will explain this), and I expect you especially to read closely. In TL Mafia 48, you presented a very strong case which quite a few dumb townies did not buy, and were exasperated as a result. I will feel the same exasperation if you do not consider my case.
Jackal, I know you are town (also will explain this), and I expect you to read closely. In Some Mafia Game, when BayonetteAnderson pulled off that dumbshit politician vote-buy claim, I explained to you with airtight logic why Palmar had to be mafia after all of that, but you did not believe me because you suspected that I was mafia. This time, read what I write, THEN decide whether or not my case has merit, and whether or not I am a spy.
The other townies, I expect you to read closely. There are only 6 townies in the game, and if the spies do not vote for a team without spies on it, we need at least 5 of us to Yay the team to succeed, and survive another day.
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Now, before you dismiss the possibility of two spies on the day 1 mission, consider this. Radfield + Blazinghand have 23 posts combined on day 1, compared to 31 for THE OTHER 7 OF US! Look at their filters and pay attention to what they have said to each other. How they are talking to each other.
First of all, I will repost the case I posted earlier here. I will rephrase the areas where I was tentative because I am sure now: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12942132 Nothing that has occurred after I posted that case has disproven any of it, and in fact, the case is now stronger than before.
By reexamining the first day's interactions I will establish that Radfield and Blazinghand are spies.
Consider the sequence of events.
On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote: Team: Radfield (yourself, who is confirmed town to you), plus Zona (for example), plus someone who gives off a solid town read like, say, Blazinghand. If the mission fails, you can reasonably say "well I think this was Zona" (though others will not be able to do so). The beauty of this though is, assuming you're right about the "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad", If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
(a few more back and forth posts between the two I will discuss later)
On December 27 2011 10:26 Radfield wrote: OK, I'm just going to propose a team then.
Myself Palmar Blazinghand
It obviously goes against my initial post, but that first post was really just to get things kicking.
Palmar pointed out Blazinghand's little "WIFOM alert" portion, but it's the sequence of events that caught my eye. Notice that Radfield "goes against his intial post" after Blazinghand's post and then includes Blazinghand in his team.
However, what's damning is that Radfield accepts Blazinghand's poor logic in the process. Here are the back and forth posts.
On December 27 2011 06:06 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 03:15 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1? I don't see why those would be mutually exclusive. In fact, I see those as the same thing. A successful mission gives is 3 probable towns, whereas a failed mission just says "well someone among these three is mafia but we don't know who ._." So I'd say: yes, gathering d1 info by getting a successful mission is the most important. Well, what you were saying earlier is that if I think 1 of Zona and Palmar is scum, it makes the most sense to actually take one of those players along. That would decrease our odds of victory, but increase our information potential. Yes? Radfield has (implicitly) come to the correct conclusion ("decrease our odds of victory") here that if he believes one of Palmar/Zona/himself is a spy, then taking one more of us along with himself, if he is town, (so a 50/50 chance that myself or Palmar is a spy) is worse than picking from the rest, where the chances would be 33%.
On December 27 2011 06:16 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:06 Radfield wrote:On December 27 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 03:15 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1? I don't see why those would be mutually exclusive. In fact, I see those as the same thing. A successful mission gives is 3 probable towns, whereas a failed mission just says "well someone among these three is mafia but we don't know who ._." So I'd say: yes, gathering d1 info by getting a successful mission is the most important. Well, what you were saying earlier is that if I think 1 of Zona and Palmar is scum, it makes the most sense to actually take one of those players along. That would decrease our odds of victory, but increase our information potential. Yes? Indeed. But this is only a viable tactic because you personally know that you are not scum. I'm not the current leader, so I would gain no additional information from you selecting one of Zona/Palmar to come with you, even assuming I shared your thought that 1 of Zona/Palmar/Radfield is scum, because *I* can't rule *you* out. So with my knowledge base, with your assumption of 1 of Zona/Palm/Rad being scum, I actually would not want you to pick 2 from that group, but rather, to pick me, since I myself know I am not scum, and I want to maximize our success rate. Effectively, the leader's D1 is fundamentally different from a non-leader's D1, because the leader knows his alignment and is select the team. Since I'm currently not the leader, I think we should maximize win rate which will maximize info gained. You as the leader are not working with the same information I am, so you will have a different motivation. Here, Blazinghand reiterates his strategy, which he states "maximize win rate" (it does NOT), and talks about "You as the leader"..."will have different motivation."
On December 27 2011 06:21 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 06:17 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 06:06 Radfield wrote:On December 27 2011 05:51 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 03:15 Toadesstern wrote:On December 27 2011 02:49 Blazinghand wrote:On December 27 2011 02:03 TruthBringer wrote: Blazinghand, how exactly do you get a townread from someone at this point in this game?
Based on my assumptions, which I clearly stated in my previous post. Everybody is just A, B, . . . H, I right now. I am not sure that putting any more thought into it is going to cause me to rationally approve of A, B, C, but not A, B, D. It's the kind of read that is more solid if more people post analysis of what they think the optimal move is. I think it's reasonable for any team leader to chose himself as part of his team on this first day, since to him he is a confirmed town, in order to maximize our odds. In any case, I don't view people as A, B, C-- you know why? Currently people have already diverged somewhat in posting patterns, if only because it's christmastime and some people haven't had time to post yet. For example, I haven't seen a post from Zona, whereas I HAVE seen a post from you. This means to me, Zona is indeed just "player A who hasn't posted yet"... but you are not. You are a person with a history. You blindly yay-voted the first town leader on the basis of "Well forming reads on the first day is harddddddddddd (or impossible)". brb 3 hours quick question. What's more important for you: Getting information d1 based off our mission or getting a successful mission d1? I don't see why those would be mutually exclusive. In fact, I see those as the same thing. A successful mission gives is 3 probable towns, whereas a failed mission just says "well someone among these three is mafia but we don't know who ._." So I'd say: yes, gathering d1 info by getting a successful mission is the most important. Well, what you were saying earlier is that if I think 1 of Zona and Palmar is scum, it makes the most sense to actually take one of those players along. That would decrease our odds of victory, but increase our information potential. Yes? That's exactly my point. From what blazinghand said earlier it looks like he wants us to sacrifice d1 for information gain because if he was suggesting that if rad thinks zona or palmar are scum then he should take one of them to get clear information. However that "clear" information is only information for rad because he might know his alignment but how am I supposed to know if he's not the spy while both zona and palmar are town? So that "clear" information is really only clear information for rad (if at all) and increases the chances of being blocked d1. At the same time we could just get screwed big time if the waynie (idea = send rad + zona/palmar + waynie) turns out to be a spy. So even for rad the information isn't granted at all because he could end up thinking zona is a spy when sending zona along with him while in realitiy the 3rd guy was the spy. To sum it up: I don't think there is anything like granted information out of d1 therefore I think we should try to minimize the chances of getting sabotaged therefore I don't like your "send zona or palmar to get clear information" at all. That's why I what blazinghand was about to suggest earlier. ._. we only really gain information if the mission is successful. If the mission fails all we know is "someone of these three is scum" the point of that post is that Radfield is not acting optimally given his assumptions, not "oh we should do X" because I think Radfield's assumptions are wrong anyways. I'm just pointing otu that given what he's said, it's a terrible idea to pre-vote Yay on him and you should unvote. Blazinghand here even states that "we only really gain information if the mission is successful" - while suggesting a strategy which does NOT maximize the chances of success. At the very least, Radfield has realized this.
And after that, Radfield proposes his team, which if you'll notice, follows Blazinghand's proposed strategy. When asked why he picked it, he states:
On December 27 2011 10:31 Radfield wrote: yay or nay.
Here is my reasoning.
Palmar's only post, while brief, is an important piece of advice and not one I had even considered.
Blazinghand seems townish and willing to reason out and his posting is sound.
I know myself to be town. Honestly, any Day 1 leader who DID NOT put themselves into the first mission would be auto-scum as far as I can tell. It would be blatantly playing against your win-con. In fact, it seems like leaders at every stage of mission will be putting themselves in. No? He does NOT acknowledge that he is following precisely what Blazinghand has proposed. And worse, I expect Radfield to realize that Blazinghand's proposal does NOT maximize the chances of success given the assumptions, which both of them seem to accept without questioning.
After the N1 failure, both players basically attack each other (while emphasizing the "one spy on day 1" idea) without really considering the possibility that Palmar is the spy.
Now consider what has happened since then.
Radfield has responded to my case with just a lame insult.
On December 31 2011 07:03 Radfield wrote: The idea that I, as a spy, would select another spy for mission 1 is absurd. You should do something more productive with your time zona.
Who do you want on today's mission? No disputing of the reasoning or arguments involved at all. I would expect a town Radfield to dispute the case against him, since he would be able to clearly point out where it had no merit. You may also notice that Radfield is vigorously disputing the "cases" put against him by Blazinghand. Radfield is simply hoping that the case I present will be ignored by the rest of you.
Now let's look at Blazinghand's response. It's even more interesting.
His first post in response is this:
On December 31 2011 06:28 Blazinghand wrote: if thats the case vote yay for Bluemists team then right? His priority here is to get me to vote for GreyMiST's team, which we now see has failed. It's also something I anticipated, based on my case on Radfield and Blazinghand:
On December 31 2011 06:30 Zona wrote: Actually, no. Because if I'm correct that you're a spy, then your support of the team actually indicates it's very possible that the last spy is in that team.
He also doesn't defend against the allegations:
On December 31 2011 06:30 Blazinghand wrote: at least someone thinking both me and rad are spies is better than someone thinking i am the sole spy-- zona wont make the mistake of sending rad on a mission
That being said this is a great case against rad.
also that whole thing was "assuming rad's assumption was true" but i do not think it is true Then he throws out some nonsense to try to distract everyone:
On December 31 2011 07:07 Blazinghand wrote: I think the key we're missing here is that Radfield Zona Jackal is the spy team
Blazinghand and Radfield are spies. One of Toadesstern, GreYMisT and VisceraEyes is a spy. (Palmar is not a spy due to Blazinghand/Radfield being spies.)
Truthbringer, Palmar, Jackal, and I are town. This is the team I want. We still need to identify one more town for Day 5. VE, Toad, GreyMisT you need to post more of your opinions.
Before ANYONE votes Yay, we must have acceptable teams from everyone in the thread. Then we vote - the people we agree are least scummy vote last, the people we agree are most scummy vote first. If anyone places a Yay vote on a team they did not explicitly say they were comfortable with, we all immediately unvote and reconsider the situation.
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didn't expect you to help me :p Same goes for Truth and VE but as long as the rest votes yes I'm fine with that
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As I believe Radfield is a spy, I have nay-voted this team.
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totally know how palmar felt last game...
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ok zona I think there is literally only one possible team we're both agreeing on. I won't vote yay on a team that has palmar, truth or VE suggested because that's an instant lose, you won't agree on a team that got BH or Rad suggested. That's 5 people we don't like and leaves us with 4 people:
Grey, Jackal, Zona, Toad. Since all 4 of them are town I would also agree to that if jackal or zona are going to suggest something like that. However I still hope that we get 4 more townies to yay-vote my team to denie Palmar and VE their chance to get 2 stupid townies on their team but just in case that's not going to happen I'm already telling you that I'm pretty much going to nay-vote everything else.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Zona, I brushed off your case because it IS ridiculous. However, I will respond to it here in full.
What is the worse possible scenario for mafia Day 1? All three spies on the mission of course. The second worse scenario would be to have 2 spies. The reason for this is that having 2 sabotages on a mission with only 3 players basically loses the game for the spies. Therefore the idea that I, as a spy and team leader, would go out and select another spy is ridiculous. Whatever you may think of my play, it is not stupid. As a team leader there is no need for me to go through breadcrumbing and other risky public posting in order to make that first mission a failure. It simply makes no sense.
When I picked my team, I DID NOT do it to follow Blazinghand's metrics. In fact, until you pointed it out I had not realized that my team followed his metrics almost exactly. I felt Blazinghand was contributing in his own way, and I felt Palmar to be town based on his no spy talk post.
You're argument against me is that it is "damning" that I accepted blazinghands poor logic, but nowhere did I do that. I chose a team based on who i thought was town at the time. No more, no less. I can disagree with someone and point out flaws in logic while still having a town read on that person.
To sum up:
He does NOT acknowledge that he is following precisely what Blazinghand has proposed. And worse, I expect Radfield to realize that Blazinghand's proposal does NOT maximize the chances of success given the assumptions, which both of them seem to accept without questioning.
I did not realize I was following blazinghands suggestions.
I did not accept that my initial reasoning(1 mafia in each skill group) was correct. In fact I would bet 10:1 that it is incorrect, but was the only thing I had to go on at the beginning of the game.
I most certainly did not agree with blazinghands logic. This should be obvious given that I directly and clearly stated why and how it was flawed.
I chose my team based on town reads, that is all. Not on my initial speculation, not on blazinghands faulty logic.
Now, I have responded, and I urge you if you are town to look at more realistic scenarios. Right now you are obfuscating the thread, and distracting us from proper scum hunting.
I want you to now look at my filter with an open mind, ignoring Day 1 interaction with blazinghand (because I'm sure you will admit you have made up your mind there), and decide whether I am town or not based on my demeaner and contributions. You stated early on you felt my posting was 'artificial', do you still feel that way? Assuming I am scum, which you believe, how does my other posting stack up with that theory? Do you see scummy objectives in my posting?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
VE does not get to go on another mission until he gets in here and contributes.
Palmar, how much time have you put into this game the last 2 days(not an accusation, just a question). How much time are you willing to put in in the next few days? Also, can you lay out why you think truthbringer is town?
Jackal, considering you were 6th in line or so, why when I asked you if you had a prepared team did you answer yes? In my mind it seems strange that you would have a ready made team when you are almost certainly not going to be the team leader on that day. Who is your ideal team today?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Additionally Palmar, what are your reasons for thinking VE is town?
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On January 01 2012 23:19 Toadesstern wrote: ok zona I think there is literally only one possible team we're both agreeing on. I won't vote yay on a team that has palmar, truth or VE suggested because that's an instant lose, you won't agree on a team that got BH or Rad suggested. That's 5 people we don't like and leaves us with 4 people:
Grey, Jackal, Zona, Toad. Since all 4 of them are town I would also agree to that if jackal or zona are going to suggest something like that. However I still hope that we get 4 more townies to yay-vote my team to denie Palmar and VE their chance to get 2 stupid townies on their team but just in case that's not going to happen I'm already telling you that I'm pretty much going to nay-vote everything else.
What makes you say the bolded?
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On January 02 2012 01:47 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 23:19 Toadesstern wrote: ok zona I think there is literally only one possible team we're both agreeing on. I won't vote yay on a team that has palmar, truth or VE suggested because that's an instant lose, you won't agree on a team that got BH or Rad suggested. That's 5 people we don't like and leaves us with 4 people:
Grey, Jackal, Zona, Toad. Since all 4 of them are town I would also agree to that if jackal or zona are going to suggest something like that. However I still hope that we get 4 more townies to yay-vote my team to denie Palmar and VE their chance to get 2 stupid townies on their team but just in case that's not going to happen I'm already telling you that I'm pretty much going to nay-vote everything else. What makes you say the bolded?
there're 9 players in this game. I am not going to vote for 3 of them, zona is not going to vote for two of them => 9 - (3+2) = 4 = greymist, Jackal, Zona, Toad left
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On January 02 2012 00:55 Radfield wrote:Zona, I brushed off your case because it IS ridiculous. However, I will respond to it here in full. What is the worse possible scenario for mafia Day 1? All three spies on the mission of course. The second worse scenario would be to have 2 spies. The reason for this is that having 2 sabotages on a mission with only 3 players basically loses the game for the spies. Therefore the idea that I, as a spy and team leader, would go out and select another spy is ridiculous. Whatever you may think of my play, it is not stupid. As a team leader there is no need for me to go through breadcrumbing and other risky public posting in order to make that first mission a failure. It simply makes no sense. When I picked my team, I DID NOT do it to follow Blazinghand's metrics. In fact, until you pointed it out I had not realized that my team followed his metrics almost exactly. I felt Blazinghand was contributing in his own way, and I felt Palmar to be town based on his no spy talk post. You're argument against me is that it is "damning" that I accepted blazinghands poor logic, but nowhere did I do that. I chose a team based on who i thought was town at the time. No more, no less. I can disagree with someone and point out flaws in logic while still having a town read on that person. To sum up: Show nested quote + He does NOT acknowledge that he is following precisely what Blazinghand has proposed. And worse, I expect Radfield to realize that Blazinghand's proposal does NOT maximize the chances of success given the assumptions, which both of them seem to accept without questioning.
I did not realize I was following blazinghands suggestions. I did not accept that my initial reasoning(1 mafia in each skill group) was correct. In fact I would bet 10:1 that it is incorrect, but was the only thing I had to go on at the beginning of the game. I most certainly did not agree with blazinghands logic. This should be obvious given that I directly and clearly stated why and how it was flawed. I chose my team based on town reads, that is all. Not on my initial speculation, not on blazinghands faulty logic. Now, I have responded, and I urge you if you are town to look at more realistic scenarios. Right now you are obfuscating the thread, and distracting us from proper scum hunting. I want you to now look at my filter with an open mind, ignoring Day 1 interaction with blazinghand (because I'm sure you will admit you have made up your mind there), and decide whether I am town or not based on my demeaner and contributions. You stated early on you felt my posting was 'artificial', do you still feel that way? Assuming I am scum, which you believe, how does my other posting stack up with that theory? Do you see scummy objectives in my posting?
You know that spies can choose to sabatoge or not right? Conceivably if there were 3 spies on day 1, only 1 would need to sabatoge and the others could send in a no sabatoge request.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Yeam with rad = nay vote from me
Happy new years
Brb hangovr
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On January 01 2012 21:58 Palmar wrote: greymist/toad is one Blazinghand is one Zona/Jackal is one
That leaves our mission team for today as me/you/truth/ve.
This is as it should be. My guess for scum is Toad/Blazinghand/Jackal.
Therefor a team would include anyone that is not one of those three and my vote will reflect that.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Actually I'm unvoting my nay; it's possible that Palmar is the true villain here. That being said, I'm also suspicious of Zona and i'm definitely not 100% on Rad. I'm feeling substantially better now and will be reading the thread, addressing queries, and making various accusations presently.
Also VE what makes you think Palmar is a bro and not a spy
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If you are sure rad is a spy, then why on earth would you un-nay vote a team with him on it? has your opinion been changed somehow?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 02 2012 08:19 Blazinghand wrote: Actually I'm unvoting my nay; it's possible that Palmar is the true villain here.
Oh hey look its a post by blazinghand that's nto being read let me translate for you
"since palmar was on both teams, i admit there's a possibility that he sabotaged n1 and I was wrong about radfield-- that being said, i'm not ready to yay-vote this team"
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On January 01 2012 22:23 Toadesstern wrote: finally, that's all I need, thx palmar :p Out of nowhere you 3 guys (Palmar, Truth, VE) are comming and telling people I'm a spy. Yet noone told me why you think so. Not a single word. This is you three sticking together because I said I'm not going to include palmar again and said I'm going to suggest myself + rad + greymist + a 4th guy while mentioning that I don't like VE's attitude anymore. Those 3 are our spies, all three are suspiciou for a reason and completly out of the blue they're sticking together like that? Just keep dodging them and we win. Guess I was wrong on BH afterall.
##Team: Toadesstern, Radfield, GreYMisT, Zona
Swapped out Palmar for obvious reasons Swapped out VE for obvious reasons and those 4 are town. Zona because even if you don't believe I'm right with truth and VE and you only think that we should not give palmar a chance Zona looks perfectly nice. Greymist still is my 2nd strongest townread after rad now that palmar was on both failed missions.
I'll be downvoting this team as well.
Toad's reasoning that VE, Truth, and Palmar are the spies is a pretty big leap, and essentially an OMGUS. Remember, If both VE and palmar are the spies, that means that one of them would have had to choose to not sabatoge on day2, which is very risky. In addition, remember that Truth proposed his team with both Palmar and VE on it. Do you really believe that he would propose a team that contained the entire scumteam on day2?
To reiterate, I will be nay-voting because your logic for choosing this team is based on the thought that the above 3 players are scum, something I simply can't see.
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On January 02 2012 01:06 Radfield wrote: VE does not get to go on another mission until he gets in here and contributes.
Palmar, how much time have you put into this game the last 2 days(not an accusation, just a question). How much time are you willing to put in in the next few days? Also, can you lay out why you think truthbringer is town?
Jackal, considering you were 6th in line or so, why when I asked you if you had a prepared team did you answer yes? In my mind it seems strange that you would have a ready made team when you are almost certainly not going to be the team leader on that day. Who is your ideal team today? My team at the time was put forth to see if anybody tried to force that team choice to me.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 02 2012 04:13 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 00:55 Radfield wrote:Zona, I brushed off your case because it IS ridiculous. However, I will respond to it here in full. What is the worse possible scenario for mafia Day 1? All three spies on the mission of course. The second worse scenario would be to have 2 spies. The reason for this is that having 2 sabotages on a mission with only 3 players basically loses the game for the spies. Therefore the idea that I, as a spy and team leader, would go out and select another spy is ridiculous. Whatever you may think of my play, it is not stupid. As a team leader there is no need for me to go through breadcrumbing and other risky public posting in order to make that first mission a failure. It simply makes no sense. When I picked my team, I DID NOT do it to follow Blazinghand's metrics. In fact, until you pointed it out I had not realized that my team followed his metrics almost exactly. I felt Blazinghand was contributing in his own way, and I felt Palmar to be town based on his no spy talk post. You're argument against me is that it is "damning" that I accepted blazinghands poor logic, but nowhere did I do that. I chose a team based on who i thought was town at the time. No more, no less. I can disagree with someone and point out flaws in logic while still having a town read on that person. To sum up: He does NOT acknowledge that he is following precisely what Blazinghand has proposed. And worse, I expect Radfield to realize that Blazinghand's proposal does NOT maximize the chances of success given the assumptions, which both of them seem to accept without questioning.
I did not realize I was following blazinghands suggestions. I did not accept that my initial reasoning(1 mafia in each skill group) was correct. In fact I would bet 10:1 that it is incorrect, but was the only thing I had to go on at the beginning of the game. I most certainly did not agree with blazinghands logic. This should be obvious given that I directly and clearly stated why and how it was flawed. I chose my team based on town reads, that is all. Not on my initial speculation, not on blazinghands faulty logic. Now, I have responded, and I urge you if you are town to look at more realistic scenarios. Right now you are obfuscating the thread, and distracting us from proper scum hunting. I want you to now look at my filter with an open mind, ignoring Day 1 interaction with blazinghand (because I'm sure you will admit you have made up your mind there), and decide whether I am town or not based on my demeaner and contributions. You stated early on you felt my posting was 'artificial', do you still feel that way? Assuming I am scum, which you believe, how does my other posting stack up with that theory? Do you see scummy objectives in my posting? You know that spies can choose to sabatoge or not right? Conceivably if there were 3 spies on day 1, only 1 would need to sabatoge and the others could send in a no sabatoge request.
Of course, but that's extremely risky. If two players decide to sabotage, they are basically done because none of those three players are ever going on a mission again.
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radfield you might want to nay-vote my team to give us more time to set up the next (and probably the next after that) team. Right now I've got 4 nays and there's still a mafia voter out so it's not going to happen but they're stalling this whole shit. You guys will probably nayvote BH's-Team as well. Next in order would be jackal followed by palmar and VE...
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
In the event of 1 spy on the d1 team: 33% chance of Blazinghand 33% chance of Palmar 33% chance of Radfield
What are (randomly) the odds of 1 spy on d1 team? there's a 1/3rd chance for the first guy to be a spy, right? so assuming that, for the other two not to be spy, there is a 3/4ths chance to not pick the 2/8 ppl who are spies, then a 5/7ths chance not to pick the 2/7 people who are spies, meaning there is a 1/3*3/4*5/7 = 0.1786 of the first guy being a spy
"but wait blazinghand" you say "what if the first guy is town, then the second guy is spy?
well don't worry man, i can help you with that. Check this: the odds of the first guy being town is 2/3rds, right? well ok if the second guy is a spy there's a 3/8ths chance of getting him as spy, then if the third guy is a town, there's a 5/7ths chance of him being town... which comes out to 2/3 * 3/8 * 5/7 = 0.1786 of the second guy being a spy
"oh shoot blazinghand" you say "how does that work?"
well, we're just multiplying probabilities, so the order doesn't matter, right? The one thing we can determine for sure is that it should be the same probability of a single person on that team being a spy. That makes sense, yes?
Adding these three probabilities together, the probabilities come out to 53% chance of exactly 1 spy on N1 team! That still leaves a lot of room for the possibility of 2 spies N1.
What are the odds of 2 spies on the d1 team? The odds of there being 2 spies means that after there has been picked a spy (1/3rd chance) there is another spy pick, either immediately (1/4 chance), and then the third spy ISN'T picked (6/7) chance or there is a town pick then a spy pick (the other 3/4 of the time, there is a 2/7 chance of a second spy). (1/3) * (2/8) * (6/7) = 0.0714, and with three combinatorial routes, this leaves us with a 21% chance of 2 spies on D1.
Well, what about the remaining 26% chance? There is a small but non-zero chance that there were no spies D1 (which wasn't the case, but for completeness sake) and the odds of that would be 2/3rd * 5/8 * 4/7 (order irrelevant) which gives us a 23% chance. There's also a very small chance that the mission actually contained 3 spies, which would be a 1/3rd * 2/7 * 1/6 = 1.5% chance. Very small.
Now you're probably thinking "Wait why would there be 3 spies N1, Blazinghand? that sounds horribly unlikely and sub-optimal for the spies, doesn't it?"
Why yes, reader, that DOES?
See, the thing a raw probability calculation like this leaves out is that in every situation, there's a chance that the spy is Radfield, rather than Blazinghand or Palmar. See, if Blazinghand or Palmar is the spy, that has no impact on whether the other dude (Blazinghand or Palmar) is the spy. However, if Radfield is the spy, he's the dude who put together the team. He could easily chose to include 1, 2, 3, or 0 spies regardless of probability.
This makes things much more interesting.
Now imagine you're Radfield. This means you are a spy and are totally devious and smart etc etc. So you lucked into a d1 captainship, and you get the feeling people are gonna sheep all over you. You posted a question and some people have made some vaguely scummy d1 posts (Zona, Blazinghand both made posts prior to Greymist's warning about posting anything that could be used as spy meta). What's an optimal strategy?
Well, as Radfield, you'd pick your scumbuddy Palmar, who has been judiciously silent, and Blazinghand. Blazinghand, being the mad nerd baller that he is, will nayvote the team, looking even scummier, but luckily the (now probably not) scum Jackal comes in and hammers the vote.
Now, you get into a big long argument with Blazinghand and Palmar sort of chills. Townies, operating under the assumption that there was 1 spy N1 (when really there were two-- you sabotaged and palmar did nothing, so it looked like there was only 1 spy), are not going to select an "only new dudes" 4-man team. They don't want to select Blazinghand, because you've made a case against him. And, despite (or because of) your best efforts, Blazinghand has made a case of sorts against you.
Naturally, the pick Palmar. You wait until a team of 3 townies plus Palmar gets suggested, and of course it passes-- nobody wants a team with Blazinghand on it, and you are vaguely suspicious to some.
Palmar sabotages, and now things are looking scary. People immediately assume it's not Palmar, even though he's the common article between the two missions. Some people are like "Well radfield isn't confirmed town any more" and some people are suspicious of Palmar, but Blazinghand is still on everyone's scum list...
and then your Third man swoops in, Zona, who busts out this big "Blazinghand and Rad are working together" theory and it doesn't really make sense but people buy it because people will buy things when they're desperate. Zona took a hit earlier during the "is this a scum strat being said" deal, but things start to make sense. Radfield/Blazinghand/Zona? could be. Radfield/Blazinghand/someone else? maybe.
But these people aren't paying attention to the facts and the facts are that Radfield is scummy and the ONLY REASON HE WOULD BRING ME D1 when I looked scummy would be to entrap me as he has! it's an elaborate plot
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Actually greymist your reasoning to nay-vote my team is wrong. I did not put this team up because of those 3 spies we have. I put this team up because they still are the strongest town reads we got so far. The team I told Zona would be a team that's suggested because of those 3 spies.
Just ask yourself a couple questions: Do you think Radfield is a spy? Do you think we should send palmar on a mission after 2 consecutive failures? Do you think Zona is a spy when you're not willing to send Palmar (given you answered #2 with no)? Do you think I am a spy?
If you're answering a single (or multiple) questions with no, fine that's a prefectly fine reason to nay-vote. However if you answered everything with yes I want your vote. I did not put this team up because of truth+palmar+VE. I suggested this team because I am not willing to suggest palmar a third time (you already agreed to that) and at the same time I still think rad+Grey are good townreads for everyone (apperently except zona...). That's the reason I suggested the team. I'm trying to make this as easy as it can get for you guys and those people on my team all have decent towncred. Yet we have mass-nay's. Why do you think it's like that?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
To be fair I un-nay-voted your team Toad though that might actually lose you town cred ._.
In any case, I'm beginning to think Zona is a spy, in cahoots with an elaborate Rad/Palm scheme. it's kind of a long shot but it makes sense given what's happened so far.
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On January 02 2012 20:26 Toadesstern wrote: Actually greymist your reasoning to nay-vote my team is wrong. I did not put this team up because of those 3 spies we have. I put this team up because they still are the strongest town reads we got so far. The team I told Zona would be a team that's suggested because of those 3 spies.
Just ask yourself a couple questions: Do you think Radfield is a spy? Do you think we should send palmar on a mission after 2 consecutive failures? Do you think Zona is a spy when you're not willing to send Palmar (given you answered #2 with no)? Do you think I am a spy?
If you're answering a single (or multiple) questions with yes, fine that's a prefectly fine reason to nay-vote. However if you answered everything with yes I want your vote. I did not put this team up because of truth+palmar+VE. I suggested this team because I am not willing to suggest palmar a third time (you already agreed to that) and at the same time I still think rad+Grey are good townreads for everyone (apperently except zona...). That's the reason I suggested the team. I'm trying to make this as easy as it can get for you guys and those people on my team all have decent towncred. Yet we have mass-nay's. Why do you think it's like that?
EBWOP
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Well Toad, two of your nay votes are from people actually ON your team.... so you can't really say mafia are mass down-voting your mission.
In other news, I am going to ignore Blazinghand from here on out and focus on other things. Once I get home today I'm going to mass scumhunt. Until then I'm going to continue visiting with family and friends, but I expect to actually see some townies posting at some point.
You guys cannot all be scum, yet I am being painted with a red brush on absolutely brutal arguments, and no one is making a peep about it.
Palmar, do you think I am town or scum. VE same question. You guys both just finished playing a game with me where I was town. What is your read this game? SPEAK!
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On January 02 2012 22:19 Radfield wrote: Well Toad, two of your nay votes are from people actually ON your team.... so you can't really say mafia are mass down-voting your mission.
In other news, I am going to ignore Blazinghand from here on out and focus on other things. Once I get home today I'm going to mass scumhunt. Until then I'm going to continue visiting with family and friends, but I expect to actually see some townies posting at some point.
You guys cannot all be scum, yet I am being painted with a red brush on absolutely brutal arguments, and no one is making a peep about it.
Palmar, do you think I am town or scum. VE same question. You guys both just finished playing a game with me where I was town. What is your read this game? SPEAK!
Zona is not a real vote, he's just tunneling you and therefore voted nay Greymist voted nay because according to him my team is a team I set up because of palmar/VE/truth, which is not true. I mean if he thinks I am mafia that's a reason I could understand but he did not say that's the reason of his nay.
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Did you not say " those three are our spies"? And in any case I am nay voting you because I am both suspicious of you and wary of radfield.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
The big thing about this team is that it's saying "toad rad grey zona"
Which is saying "on day 1, palmar or blazinghand (or both) were spies (rad town), and on day 2, palmar VE (or both) were spies (greymist, toad town)"
it's also saying "zona doesn't look scummy" and i have serious reservations about zona. I think i'm going to nayvote this team after all.
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Team Rejected!
A team consisting of Toadesstern, Radfield, GreYMisT and Zona has been rejected for this mission!
Final vote count: Yays: Toadesstern Nays: Palmar Zona TruthBringer GreYMisT Blazinghand
The new leader is Blazinghand whose team is: None
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Man here come the nayvotes, right guys? I'm gonna lay down the reasoning for my team, put something together, and post it. That being said, if you think i'm scum you should just nayvote me now and get on with it.
Here are some general thoughts:
1) I do not trust Radfield. Radfield's actions d1 still are suspicious to me. I'm fairly sure he picked me for his team even though I looked scummy due to the "don't talk about spy meta" thing specifically BECAUSE he wanted me to be a fall guy. Zona goes into detail about this in some posts. 2) I do not trust Palmar. He's been relatively quiet, which doesn't say much, but he was on both teams that lost, and I wouldn't put it past Radfield to pick Palmar d1. 3) I do not trust Jackal58 for previously mentioned reasons including Hammering. The fact that he hammered the N2 team is meaningless though 4) VE actually seems okay to me. He was aggressive towards me but didn't tunnel and didn't make too many factual errors. 5) Truthbringer is still suspicious for me. 6) Greymist seems kosher. I'm somewhat worried about his post-reading skills and math skills but he seems more town than not. 7) I'm distrustful of Zona for a) the scum meta post on d1 and b) the completely unreasonable conclusion that both Rad and I are mafia (????) and then being like "well i'm voting against this team because blazinghand is voting for it" when RAd and I almost always vote at odds. 8) Toadesstern has been wrong for the right reasons this game. He's been asking questions, and rather reasonably included Radfield on his team. The thing I don't trust about him was the inclusion of Zona. That being said, I'm not willing to trust Truthbringer over him, and Palmar and Radfield are both iffy, and jackal is suspicious, and if I trusted zona i wouldn't be suspicious of Toad in the first place.
therefore, my team is Blazinghand, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes, and GreyMist.
Gentlemen, start your nayvotes! Anyone who thinks i'm mafia, please nayvote immediately so we can move on. Anyone who's iffy or who thinks i'm town, ask questions and interact with me! We will have many fun times together, I promise.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I said I was going to ignore you, but I just cannot help myself. Why do you think I thought you were scummy on Day 1 when I specifically said I felt you were town?
I will likely nay-vote this, but not until I take another hard look at Palmar.
We are losing this game because people are not posting. If you're town please start posting more so we can develop decent reads.
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I am going to nay-vote this team, I am simply not comfortable with you on/picking a team at this point, and I am also interested to see what Jackal has to offer us, and if his team differs from what he posted earlier.
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Also, I would like to echo what Zona said earlier and take it perhaps one step further. If you propose a team, please don't even vote for yourself until it has been decided to accept your team. This is because all we need are 2 town at this point yay-voting a team with a spy for the remaining 3 players to hammer and end the game.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I agree with radfield that increased posting from town players would be nice.
Radfield, I don't believe your "town" read on me on day1 was legitimate. I think everyone thought i was mafia day 1 after I made this post:
On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote:
Team: Radfield (yourself, who is confirmed town to you), plus Zona (for example), plus someone who gives off a solid town read like, say, Blazinghand. If the mission fails, you can reasonably say "well I think this was Zona" (though others will not be able to do so). The beauty of this though is, assuming you're right about the "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad", If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
A post like this which shared spy information is very scummy, and several people pointed this out, which is why people were suspicious of both Zona and myself who made posts like this on day 1. It's why Zona didn't even bother making a team because people were probably gonna mass nayvote it anyways.
In any case, I didn't like that you chose me day 1. Looking back on it, I think you were setting me up to be a "fall guy".
It could be you just didn't think that was that big of a slip-up. That being said, a couple of other things (the unnecessary discussion of the 1/3 1/3 1/3 possibility, the delayed justification, whether you meant it or not) also compound that suspicion.
In any case, I think my team is pretty solid. I think that most people will look at this team and think that the weakest link is Blazinghand. I, knowing myself to be town, suffer from no such doubts. This is a good team.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Alright Greymist I'll unvote my team but really if you don't trust me and think i'm a spy it's impossible for three spies to hammer the vote, since there are only 2 spies remaing, right?
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On January 03 2012 07:57 Blazinghand wrote:Alright Greymist I'll unvote my team but really if you don't trust me and think i'm a spy it's impossible for three spies to hammer the vote, since there are only 2 spies remaing, right?
Indeed, that was a general announcement directed towards all players.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
But yeah given that it's d3 and we have only 1 loss left we should be careful. It's possible I've made a misread, and in that case if my team gets 2 votes and then gets hammered all manner of bad things will happen. And by that i mean we'll lose.
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I'm naying because of Toad and BH on the team. We should rapidly nay vote this so we can get some good team propositions from either jackal or Palmar.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
TB you have said that Toad is a spy, but you haven't mentioned why-- here's what you say about Toad:
On December 31 2011 08:07 TruthBringer wrote: Toad is the sketchiest person on the team, in my opinion, but really he is just a null for me and I prefer him over Blazinghand or Jackal.
On January 01 2012 12:28 TruthBringer wrote: I think it is more likely that 1 of Radfield and Blazinghand was a spy, and 1 of Greymist, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes is a spy.
In that case, I would say Blazinghand is a spy and Toadesstern is a spy.
Why do you think toad is a spy? I'd rather not bring a spy along on a mission. I'd like to hear your case.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Truthbringer: You state that: "I would say Blazinghand is a spy and Toadesstern is a spy."
This means you believe their entire argument to be phony, and that Toad is effectively bussing me, correct? And your suspicions of Toad are mainly from him nay-voting day 1?
Zona, in your opening post you wrote:
As far as I can tell, the ideal team for spies is one with just a single spy on it, then there's no guessing necessary for that spy, he/she can just sabotage. I suppose it's possible for the spy to hold back (for wifom?) but given that there's only 5 missions total, I don't think it's worth it...at least at this level of play.
Yet you are now pushing that A spy leader on day one deliberately put another spy onto the three man team. Despite the fact that it is unnecessarily risky and ends up casting suspicion on 2/3rds of the scum team. Do you still actually believe that blazinghand and me are scum together?
Right now I'm leaning towards Zona being scum, simply because the things he is saying do not make sense from a townie perspective(or at least from MY perspective).
Here is a list of the things zona has written this game that have left me scratching my head:
To be honest I wish I could just push Radfield to RNG the other two members
Okay, because of part of what I posted, now I think it's a bad idea to include me in the mission. I will vote against a team that includes me.
I'm still thinking through the merits of aiming for a 0 spy mission, vs aiming for a 2+ spy mission so don't call me out on the "if" part just yet.
As for Truth's team, I'm still mulling over whether or not Truth is likely town, because I think whether or not the team is good solely depends on if Truth is town.
Not to mention that Zona's style of finding a good team is completely backwards:
Blazinghand and Radfield are spies. One of Toadesstern, GreYMisT and VisceraEyes is a spy. (Palmar is not a spy due to Blazinghand/Radfield being spies.)
Truthbringer, Palmar, Jackal, and I are town. This is the team I want.
This is simply NOT how you behave when you are losing 0-2 in a best of five. You simply cannot work all the way backwards off of 1(wrong) assumption of me and blazinghand being scum. You're not even LOOKING at the potential townyness or scummyness of Palmar, Jackal or Truthbringer, and that is a terrible way to play. You can't simply make 1 read and infer the rest of the alignments.
However, none of this adds up to necessarily being scum. It may simply add up to zona operating under an extremely different mindset than me. The only other game I have played with zona was ages ago. Zona was scum and as far as I recall did not particularly play like this. I might OK a mission with zona if pressed, but I would prefer to not have him going.
Greymist is probably Town. All his posts make good sense, and he is asking exactly the questions that popped into my head as well. His team was solid, and I agreed with the players and the decisions behind the players. However Greymist's scumhunting has been a bit lacking, and I would like to see more contribution.
Jackal has posted very little this entire game. Certainly not enough to be able to make an adequate town read on him. He is basically a full null with a slight scum read, but there is simply not enough posts or content to get a solid read. Certainly no way to get a solid town read. Jackal, surely you understand that despite what you may know about your own alignment, there is no way any of us can vote for you on today's team. I urge you to propose a team that does not include you on it.
Palmar's first post contains two pro-town ideas. His second post is also interesting, in that he downvotes a team that includes himself. If he is scum, it's unlikely he would downvote that team since he knows it will fail, unless it included multiple scum and he didn't want to risk that. However, basically all Palmar's posts contribute, and going through them they all make pretty solid sense. However his activity level is alarming. He's not pushing his ideas and seems pretty ambivalent on the whole. Get in here Palmar, push my towniness and team up with me, then shake things up and get your team through. I think Palmar is probably Town.
VE gave me a pretty decent pro-town vibe early on, but I am losing it. He failed a mission on night 2, and his activity level is far far below where it should be. He is extremely active as town in my experience, and he has really sat back this game. This post also did not sit great with me:
On January 02 2012 07:21 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 21:58 Palmar wrote: greymist/toad is one Blazinghand is one Zona/Jackal is one
That leaves our mission team for today as me/you/truth/ve. This is as it should be. My guess for scum is Toad/Blazinghand/Jackal. Therefor a team would include anyone that is not one of those three and my vote will reflect that.
You simply cannot play this way on Day 3 with our back up against the wall. He is taking his three top scum reads and saying "OK, anyone else can go". That is seriously putting all your eggs in one basket. He makes no attempt here to actually find townies, or make the best team, simply puts forward a scum team and runs with it 100%. That kind of attitude is sure to lose this game for us. I was leaning town on VE, but at this point I need to see a lot more and would prefer to not see him on a mission.
I'm going to bed now, and don't have time to do Toad or to properly do Truth. I was leaning town on Toad before, but a lot of players are seeing him as scummy, so I need to re-evaluate. Truthbringer looks ok, but I'm not sure if he is mission worthy yet.
Blazinghand is very likely scum.
So the team I am willing to approve right now contains Palmar(likely town), Greymist(probably town), Myself(certainly town) and probably truthbringer but I'm not sure. I will find the 4th player tomorrow.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 03 2012 10:10 TruthBringer wrote: I'm naying because of Toad and BH on the team. We should rapidly nay vote this so we can get some good team propositions from either jackal or Palmar.
Please don't wait for the leaders to propose a team. What is your ideal team Truth. Who do you see as our 4 most likely townies?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Radfield, did you find my reason for suspecting you reasonable?
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On January 03 2012 10:14 Blazinghand wrote:TB you have said that Toad is a spy, but you haven't mentioned why-- here's what you say about Toad: Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 08:07 TruthBringer wrote: Toad is the sketchiest person on the team, in my opinion, but really he is just a null for me and I prefer him over Blazinghand or Jackal. Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 12:28 TruthBringer wrote: I think it is more likely that 1 of Radfield and Blazinghand was a spy, and 1 of Greymist, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes is a spy.
In that case, I would say Blazinghand is a spy and Toadesstern is a spy. Why do you think toad is a spy? I'd rather not bring a spy along on a mission. I'd like to hear your case.
don't even ask him. I already asked 3 times and he hasn't mentioned a single issue he has. About the new team: Going to nayvote it since VE's on the team.
Also I don't understand why I should be bussing rad oO If I am a spy along with rad I managed to singlehandedly lose this game after getting a 2-0 lead while everyone in this thread thinks that rad+Toad are town. Just two interesting questions and yeah, I am kind of screwing palmars "rule" right now (give it a try and think about his post for a second...):
1) Do you really think someone is bussing someone else? If mafia wants to win this they need to make teams possible that got multiple mafias on them unless they get a straight 3-0. A mafia saying another mafia looks mafia (= bussing) is essentially the most stupid thing you can do because you're ruling out one out 3 possible win-teams (AB, BC, AC) for them just because A said B looks mafia which makes AB impossible. At least everyone else would nayvote it instantly if you want that team because yay voting a team with someone who is scum according to your reads does look kind of strange. So unless mafia get's a clear 3-0 win Mafia can not afford to bus each other. Also there is literally nothing you get out of bussing each other. In normal games you see flips and get instant-towncred. We don't have flips and there won't be towncred at all. Just give me a single reason why Mafia should bus each other?
2) Mafias in a 2-0 lead. It's basicly lylo or whatever you want to call it. Do you really think mafia is going to risk this by posting a lot right now? Hell no, they're chilling and waiting for a nice team while trying to get as less attention as possible. That's what VE is doing, that's what Palmar is doing and Truth just stepped in his thread to tell everyone "hey guyses, I think Toad is mafia but I got not a single reason or post to back it up, but you guys have to believe me!" which did nothing but chaos for town so far.
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Zona], your case feels incredibly forced, to the point I don't think a townie could come up with something like that. What I think is going on is I think Zona knows which one of Rad and Blaz is scum, and is trying to paint the other scum too, if successful, this makes town in a position where they think the chances of them hitting scum is 1/7, while in reality it's 2/7. I already explained back on day 2, that I had no reason to believe they managed to communicate a non-sabotage in the thread, remember that they can't use any secret codes or anything, so any breadcrumbs would have to be quite obvious.
By "forced" I mean that your case reeks of you having figured out the conclusion first and then written the case to reflect that conclusion (instead of reaching the conclusion by evaluating the case).
I still don't think I have a reason to believe they managed to communicate in such a way. I find Zona's direct appeal to me and jackal somewhat strange, especially seeing Jackal has been completely useless this game. I mean, Zona promised to explain why Jackal and I are town, and while correct, all there was to the explanation was the process of elimination based on the case against Rad/Blaz.
Jackal is completely unreadable to me. Last time he was this useless and shitty he was mafia, he has very little opinions on anyone in the game. Of the people that I don't think are scum, he's the one I would probably not send on a mission. There is a chance he may be the scum instead of Zona, and Zona is just being dumb, but there's also the chance Jackal is off somewhere bowling and doesn't really give a shit, and I'm right about Zona. I usually am.
Radfield is the hard one in this setup, the entire game hinges on me getting the read right on him. And I think he's town. This is completely based on meta from other games and how I would expect radfield to behave in a game like this. His posting matches what I'd expect, and his reads and thoughts seem reasonable enough. I'm glad he called Zona's case terrible before I did, means he's not just sheeping my opinions in order to win my trust. In addition, I think between the two, Blazinghand looks far worse.
@Rad, you asked how much time I was puttting in, I'll give you an answer and a question.
1) Less than usual, quite obviously. 2) Do you think you're helping town by giving scum weapons to discredit me?
That's the scummiest thing Rad has done this game, but I think he simply may not have thought through before asking that, so maybe it's just a stupid question.
The goal for today, after nayvoting Blaz's team for obvious reasons is to figure out the rest of this game.
This is what I assume is happening this game:
1 spy:
Palmar Radfield Blazinghand
1 spy:
Palmar VisceraEyes Greymist Toad
1: spy
Zona Jackal Truthbringer
The reason for me assuming this is the case is as I've explained I don't think rad and blaz are both spies, and based on how scummy the last group of people is, (both jackal and zona are not bad scum candidates), it's only likely that there is only one person on each mission.
Obviously it also adds up with there being one sabotage every day.
In my opinion it should be pretty clear that by virtue on being on neither mission, and actually looking kinda good compared to the others, Truthbringer should be on today's team. I see no reason to risk putting either Jackal or Zona on the team, since neither of them gives a strong town feeling, even if it's certain that only one of them is scum (remember, we know there can at most be 1 spy in those 3 people, due to there being 2 different spies on the first 2 days).
In addition, as explained I have a scum read on Blaz, and a town read on Rad. which makes it logical to add Radfield to the team.
The big question is which one of Grey/VE/Toad we include on the team. I initially had the strongest town read on VE, but his posting level has dropped so much, at this point I'd expect town VE to be kicking and screaming, probably for my head, but that's beside the issue. He's suspiciously quiet. I was quite sure Toad was the scummer, but he seems to be posting a ton of shit that kinda-makes-sense-ish. However I know he can bullshit a lot as scum (see XLVIII), so I'm not sure. Greymist, I'm just gonna demand you post reasons why you're not scum, you dit it steamship, because well, you were scum. Time to shine again.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Although I agree with you, Palmar, that Zona is scummy, I don't think there's an easy way to justify radfield picking me for the team day 1 given that I made this post:
On January 03 2012 07:56 Blazinghand wrote:Radfield, I don't believe your "town" read on me on day1 was legitimate. I think everyone thought i was mafia day 1 after I made this post: Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote:
Team: Radfield (yourself, who is confirmed town to you), plus Zona (for example), plus someone who gives off a solid town read like, say, Blazinghand. If the mission fails, you can reasonably say "well I think this was Zona" (though others will not be able to do so). The beauty of this though is, assuming you're right about the "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad", If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
A post like this which shared spy information is very scummy, and several people pointed this out, which is why people were suspicious of both Zona and myself who made posts like this on day 1. It's why Zona didn't even bother making a team because people were probably gonna mass nayvote it anyways. In any case, I didn't like that you chose me day 1. Looking back on it, I think you were setting me up to be a "fall guy". It could be you just didn't think that was that big of a slip-up. That being said, a couple of other things (the unnecessary discussion of the 1/3 1/3 1/3 possibility, the delayed justification, whether you meant it or not) also compound that suspicion.
Like, do Radfield's suspicious actions d1 strike you as normal and cautious, as Rad would normally play? Or do they strike you as Rad setting up a fall guy (myself)?
Or do they strike you as "you are palmar, radfield's scumbuddy?"
That being said, you still have some town cred-- having someone besides myself calling Zona out is great but now I wonder if there's some serious bus craziness going on or if one of you is actually not scum
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Oh I just realized I forgot to vote in our votingthread. As mentioned earlier BH's team is a nay for me because he suggested VE.
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Team Rejected!
A team consisting of Blazinghand, Toadesstern, GreYMisT and VisceraEyes has been rejected for this mission!
Final vote count: Yays: Blazinghand Nays: GreYMisT TruthBringer Radfield Toadesstern Palmar
The new leader is Jackal58 whose team is: None
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Jackal58, Zona, Toadesstern, GreYMist.
I have no clue how the hell you guys can determine that somebody is a spy by wtf they post. Sorry if I've been less than active but this game makes no fucking sense to me.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I thought I posted this last night, but upon opening my computer I see I got a 'bad request'. Here it is:
Seriously Blazinghand? You're sending yourself, plus 3 of the 4 players from last nights mission? That honestly makes zero sense.
You're basically stating that you are sure Palmar is scum, since you are sending the other three players from Night 2. Yet you have been stating all game that you are pretty sure I am the scum from Night 1. So now your stating that somehow Me and Palmar are BOTH scum, and we worked it out enough to only have 1 of us sabotage night 1.
Your entire thought process makes zero sense. Honestly, the idea that a townie would propose a team with Greymist, VE and Toad on it for day 3 is ludicrous.
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To answer some questions.
Why do I think toad is scum? First, as jackal points out above me it is hard to determine if someone is a spy by wtf they post. Yet toad, on the first day, before the mission has even failed, nay votes the team saying that blazinghand is suspicious. At that point in the game Blazinghand's participation level had been very similar to toad's participation level, anything BH could be guilty of, so too could toad. Except toad's contributions are generally less sincere, they are to me more, "look, I'm participating" rather than an effort to help the town make the best decision. His posts seemed to be primarily picking apart BH's arguments and then doing some math for us.
Another strike against toad is related to the math. After the second mission fails he jumps to the conclusion that Palmar is the reason the mission failed both nights. When it is actually more likely that there was 1 distinct spy on each mission. (With 6 players, it is more likely that you have grabbed 2 spies and 4 townies, rather than 1 spy and 5 townies.) With all the math toad did earlier, I thought that was a bad oversight.
Then, I see the team that fails, Palmar, toad, VE, and greymist. Palmar and VE have been consistently giving me townreads. Greymist has been essentially giving me a townread, a little bit of a bumpy ride with him, but ultimately he still seems town to me. Which leaves me with toad. He hasn't been over the top scummy, but he has been scummy enough that when 1 of those 4 have to be a spy, I am very comfortable concluding it is toad.
Another question for me, was my ideal team. If I can include myself, me, Palmar, VE, and greymist. If I can't, Palmar, VE, greymist, and Radfield.
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On January 03 2012 23:36 TruthBringer wrote: To answer some questions.
Why do I think toad is scum? First, as jackal points out above me it is hard to determine if someone is a spy by wtf they post. Yet toad, on the first day, before the mission has even failed, nay votes the team saying that blazinghand is suspicious. At that point in the game Blazinghand's participation level had been very similar to toad's participation level, anything BH could be guilty of, so too could toad. Except toad's contributions are generally less sincere, they are to me more, "look, I'm participating" rather than an effort to help the town make the best decision. His posts seemed to be primarily picking apart BH's arguments and then doing some math for us.
Another strike against toad is related to the math. After the second mission fails he jumps to the conclusion that Palmar is the reason the mission failed both nights. When it is actually more likely that there was 1 distinct spy on each mission. (With 6 players, it is more likely that you have grabbed 2 spies and 4 townies, rather than 1 spy and 5 townies.) With all the math toad did earlier, I thought that was a bad oversight.
Then, I see the team that fails, Palmar, toad, VE, and greymist. Palmar and VE have been consistently giving me townreads. Greymist has been essentially giving me a townread, a little bit of a bumpy ride with him, but ultimately he still seems town to me. Which leaves me with toad. He hasn't been over the top scummy, but he has been scummy enough that when 1 of those 4 have to be a spy, I am very comfortable concluding it is toad.
Another question for me, was my ideal team. If I can include myself, me, Palmar, VE, and greymist. If I can't, Palmar, VE, greymist, and Radfield.
Your first paragraph is essentially the reason BH already called me out ( I think it was BH, not sure right now). You're basicly saying that nayvoting something d1 is a bad thing. I don't see how that's a bad thing at all. You were suspicious because of your instant-yay vote before a team was suggested and BH was suspicious for contradicting himself. At least I thought so, don't know about the rest. Therefor I nay-voted the team because again, that's all I had at this point in time. I really don't like the style you're posting because it sounds a lot like "well since we don't see flips we will never know about people for sure, therefor we don't need to try and analayze people by what they're posting and should only go by math". I already told BH that that's not going to work.
Your 2nd paragraph needs explanation. I don't see how 2 different spies are more reasonable than just one spy. I don't see this point at all and I think it's the other way around.
However I do agree with your 3rd paragraph somewhat. Palmar has given me townreads as well and if it wasn't for two consecutive fails I'd probably still be thinking he's a townie. Greymist is still a strong townread for me and VE only was on d1. After d1 he did nothing that looks like a townie so for me it's either Palmar who looks pretty town but was on 2 failed missions or it's VE who looked town d1 but other than that has done nothing at all.
Summary: I still think VE is scum I still think you're behaving unreasonable and therefor think you're scum I still get townreads from palmar but think it's too dangerous to suggest him. That's the reason I think he's scum but I could be wrong here. I don't think I'm wrong about VE or truth however.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 00:07 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 23:36 TruthBringer wrote: To answer some questions.
Why do I think toad is scum? First, as jackal points out above me it is hard to determine if someone is a spy by wtf they post. Yet toad, on the first day, before the mission has even failed, nay votes the team saying that blazinghand is suspicious. At that point in the game Blazinghand's participation level had been very similar to toad's participation level, anything BH could be guilty of, so too could toad. Except toad's contributions are generally less sincere, they are to me more, "look, I'm participating" rather than an effort to help the town make the best decision. His posts seemed to be primarily picking apart BH's arguments and then doing some math for us.
Another strike against toad is related to the math. After the second mission fails he jumps to the conclusion that Palmar is the reason the mission failed both nights. When it is actually more likely that there was 1 distinct spy on each mission. (With 6 players, it is more likely that you have grabbed 2 spies and 4 townies, rather than 1 spy and 5 townies.) With all the math toad did earlier, I thought that was a bad oversight.
Then, I see the team that fails, Palmar, toad, VE, and greymist. Palmar and VE have been consistently giving me townreads. Greymist has been essentially giving me a townread, a little bit of a bumpy ride with him, but ultimately he still seems town to me. Which leaves me with toad. He hasn't been over the top scummy, but he has been scummy enough that when 1 of those 4 have to be a spy, I am very comfortable concluding it is toad.
Another question for me, was my ideal team. If I can include myself, me, Palmar, VE, and greymist. If I can't, Palmar, VE, greymist, and Radfield. Your first paragraph is essentially the reason BH already called me out ( I think it was BH, not sure right now). You're basicly saying that nayvoting something d1 is a bad thing. I don't see how that's a bad thing at all. You were suspicious because of your instant-yay vote before a team was suggested and BH was suspicious for contradicting himself. At least I thought so, don't know about the rest. Therefor I nay-voted the team because again, that's all I had at this point in time. I really don't like the style you're posting because it sounds a lot like "well since we don't see flips we will never know about people for sure, therefor we don't need to try and analayze people by what they're posting and should only go by math". I already told BH that that's not going to work. I don't know what you're talking about, but off hand I'd say "you can't rely on reads, only math" is not something I'd say, given that my chief argument for myself being town is "I voted nay on the d1 team due to a read"
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On January 03 2012 22:46 Jackal58 wrote: Jackal58, Zona, Toadesstern, GreYMist.
I have no clue how the hell you guys can determine that somebody is a spy by wtf they post. Sorry if I've been less than active but this game makes no fucking sense to me.
I'm assuming you think the people you have not included on your team are people you have less than Optimal reads on. If that is the case why zona and not say palmar or rad? Who do you think are the spies this game? You say that we can't determine spies by what they post, but this is not much different from true mafia except that no one dies and scum can't communicate. If anything because scum can't talk to each other outside the thread it should be easier to find them based on their interactions.
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On January 04 2012 01:28 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 22:46 Jackal58 wrote: Jackal58, Zona, Toadesstern, GreYMist.
I have no clue how the hell you guys can determine that somebody is a spy by wtf they post. Sorry if I've been less than active but this game makes no fucking sense to me. I'm assuming you think the people you have not included on your team are people you have less than Optimal reads on. If that is the case why zona and not say palmar or rad? Who do you think are the spies this game? You say that we can't determine spies by what they post, but this is not much different from true mafia except that no one dies and scum can't communicate. If anything because scum can't talk to each other outside the thread it should be easier to find them based on their interactions. I'm picking people I see as town. As much as I can see in this setup. I'd say one of either Palmar or Rad are spies. I don't really expect any team I propose to be accepted anyways.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 01:37 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 01:28 GreYMisT wrote:On January 03 2012 22:46 Jackal58 wrote: Jackal58, Zona, Toadesstern, GreYMist.
I have no clue how the hell you guys can determine that somebody is a spy by wtf they post. Sorry if I've been less than active but this game makes no fucking sense to me. I'm assuming you think the people you have not included on your team are people you have less than Optimal reads on. If that is the case why zona and not say palmar or rad? Who do you think are the spies this game? You say that we can't determine spies by what they post, but this is not much different from true mafia except that no one dies and scum can't communicate. If anything because scum can't talk to each other outside the thread it should be easier to find them based on their interactions. I'm picking people I see as town. As much as I can see in this setup. I'd say one of either Palmar or Rad are spies. I don't really expect any team I propose to be accepted anyways.
If you think one of either Palmar or Rad are spies, do you think I too am a spy and it was a 2-spy n1?
Also, don't say "I don't really expect any team I propose to be accepted anyways" because even though *I* didn't expect my team to be accepted I did my best to make good reads and defend it, as should you. Proposing and voting on teams is good for us.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Does that mean you think Blazinghand is town Jackal?
@Rad, you asked how much time I was puttting in, I'll give you an answer and a question.
1) Less than usual, quite obviously. 2) Do you think you're helping town by giving scum weapons to discredit me?
That's the scummiest thing Rad has done this game, but I think he simply may not have thought through before asking that, so maybe it's just a stupid question.
Palmar, I asked this more to find out how much time you were planning on putting into this game in the future. In election mafia, I put way way less time into the game than I normally do, and my reads were way off in the late-game. Someone should have asked me that question, and would then have known to give my opinion less weight. It seems like a very pertinent question to ask a solid player if they have the time or not to make proper reads.
I'm not sure how that question was discrediting you. You either have the time or you don't, and if you don't then I'm going to pursue other avenues. If you do have the time then lets break this down, chat, and publicly scum hunt.
Independent of other players, what gives you your townread on truthbringer?
Once Jackals team gets rejected(which it surely will), you are up. I think you should not officially put forward a team until we have a chance to talk about it. Make your prelim suggestion here, and lets modify if we need to to get the votes to pass it. I think you are probably town, you think I am probably town, so lets put a team together.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 02:15 Radfield wrote: Does that mean you think Blazinghand is town Jackal?
Jackal is totes scummy but I'd just like to point out that thinking i'm town doesn't make you scum ._.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Of course not. I'm just trying to get some clear statements from Jackal regarding your alignment.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Alright, fair enough. I too would like to know what Jackal thinks. I'm highly suspicious of him as well, though I don't think his day2 hammer makes him any more suspicious than his day1 hammer. His defeatist attitude and non-defending of himself is discouraging, though.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Also, Rad, looking back on it, what made you pick me Day 1? Was it random or, given that you had a town read on me, what motivated that?
On December 27 2011 10:31 Radfield wrote: Here is my reasoning.
Palmar's only post, while brief, is an important piece of advice and not one I had even considered.
Blazinghand seems townish and willing to reason out and his posting is sound.
Radfield, I don't believe your "town" read on me on day1 was legitimate. I think everyone thought i was mafia day 1 after I made this post:
On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote:
Team: Radfield (yourself, who is confirmed town to you), plus Zona (for example), plus someone who gives off a solid town read like, say, Blazinghand. If the mission fails, you can reasonably say "well I think this was Zona" (though others will not be able to do so). The beauty of this though is, assuming you're right about the "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad", If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
A post like this which shared spy information is very scummy, and several people pointed this out, which is why people were suspicious of both Zona and myself who made posts like this on day 1. It's why Zona didn't even bother making a team because people were probably gonna mass nayvote it anyways.
In any case, I didn't like that you chose me day 1. Looking back on it, I think you were setting me up to be a "fall guy".
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On January 04 2012 03:31 Radfield wrote: Of course not. I'm just trying to get some clear statements from Jackal regarding your alignment. I think BH is scum. I think there is a very high order of probability that either you or Palmar are as well.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 05:11 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 03:31 Radfield wrote: Of course not. I'm just trying to get some clear statements from Jackal regarding your alignment. I think BH is scum. I think there is a very high order of probability that either you or Palmar are as well.
So you think there were 2 scum N1, one of which was me? Would you say you agree with Zona's analysis of "Blazinghand and Radfield are in cahoots"?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Actually, I guess the real question is, Jackal, If you think me and one of Palm/Rad is scum, do you have a solid read for a 3rd scum player? Is there an additional scummy player who makes you doubt that one of Palm/Rad is scum, as well, or are you pretty sold on that?
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No I don't. Not at this point in time. And we have very little time remaining.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Which yes/no question are you answering? I the "Do you agree with Zona" one or the "do you have another scumread" one?
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I want to personally apologize to everyone for my lack of posting. I got Skyrim for Christmas and I've been lost to the world outside Tamriel. That being said, I still have a townread on Palmar and a tentative townread on Radfield. I believe that Blazinghand is the most likely candidate for scum on the day 1 mission and I'm guessing Toad was the scum on d2.
Beyond that, I have to reread and I promise to do so today.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Welcome back! I hope you can reread and realize the Radfield/Palmar conspiracy that is afoot.
Also things are super confusing now that Jackal and I have the same portrait.
In any case, I don't trust Palmar any more. I kinda trust Radfield a little more but I still don't know what his deal was with the D1 team.
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Also I'd like to say that a team that includes me is a team with a higher success rate...continue including me in teams please.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Ah yes good move claiming Town. I was under the impression, however, that we are all implicitly claiming Town. I in fact can and will say the same thing:
I'd like to say that a team that includes me is a team with a higher success rate... include me in teams please.
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On January 04 2012 06:08 Blazinghand wrote: Ah yes good move claiming Town. I was under the impression, however, that we are all implicitly claiming Town. I in fact can and will say the same thing:
I'd like to say that a team that includes me is a team with a higher success rate... include me in teams please.
Mocking me isn't giving you any points bro.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
No but making a post that's literally useless isn't giving you any points either.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
All my mocking aside, I do actually think VE is probably town... My current scumlist is Radfield, Palmar, Zona. ._.
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The difference is that I don't think the post was useless and I'm not trying to get points. I made the post because I've been included on most of today's team-lists and I wanted everyone to know that I approve of that and want it to continue. I'm aware that scum are also able to do it, but I came out and said it rather than wait around and hope someone else says it for me. I made the post because I want to improve town's chances of winning by recognizing and appreciating a winning strategy when I see one. Not to get points, the way you did when you mocked me.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Whoa man no need to go all Lou Ferrigno on me. When you phrase it in the way you just phrased it it sounds totally reasonable. But when you just say "hey guys i'm totally town" I don't think it added much.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Also I think we're beyond the point where anyone's actually gonna put me on today's team, given how people voted on my team-- at this point the best thing I can do is ask people questions and help out with the discussion.
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Actually, what I said was:
On January 04 2012 06:06 VisceraEyes wrote: Also I'd like to say that a team that includes me is a team with a higher success rate...continue including me in teams please.
...not "Hey guys, I'm totally town"
Now don't get all incredulous with me when you're putting words in my mouth. If you think I'm "hulking out" on you, you clearly haven't played enough games with me.
If you're really interested in my thoughts after I read, quit trying to distract me from reading by mocking me and arguing with me. I'll post my thoughts shortly.
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VE i would like to know who you think is the spy team.
Blazinghand and Radfield same question.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I really don't see a difference between saying "a team that includes me is a team with a higher success rate" and "hey guys, i'm totally town"
Literally the only way a team that includes you would have a higher success rate would be that you're town, right? But we're all claiming town. That's how this setup works. Like, obviously NOW that you've made the second post it's like "oh, ok VE is just thanking me, Blazinghand, for including him in a team selection" but could you possibly understand how someone might interpret your post as a redundant and largely unuseful Town claim?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 06:32 GreYMisT wrote: VE i would like to know who you think is the spy team.
Blazinghand and Radfield same question.
On January 04 2012 06:12 Blazinghand wrote: All my mocking aside, I do actually think VE is probably town... My current scumlist is Radfield, Palmar, Zona. ._.
So i'm thinking Greymist just literally doesn't read my posts. Like, at first I was kind of joking but now i'm substantially more serious.
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On January 04 2012 06:34 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 06:32 GreYMisT wrote: VE i would like to know who you think is the spy team.
Blazinghand and Radfield same question. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 06:12 Blazinghand wrote: All my mocking aside, I do actually think VE is probably town... My current scumlist is Radfield, Palmar, Zona. ._. So i'm thinking Greymist just literally doesn't read my posts. Like, at first I was kind of joking but now i'm substantially more serious.
was writing that before you posted that line, then i got distracted preparing for newbie mafia.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Fair enough. As an addendum, I'm not 100% on the Rad/Palmar combination-- it's possible that one of them is innocent. This is my strongest set of reads, though, and my voting and team selection are based on this.
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Palmar, can you give me a really REALLY good reason not to suspect you for being on both missions that ended in failure?
Radfield, what are your thoughts on Palmar? Do you think he can be trusted?
BH, your flailing around and not making sense. But you sound town. So I'm at an impasse.
Jackal, this game needs more Jackal. We gotta take the Jackal back.
Zona, what are your thoughts on Jackal? Like, in general?
Right now my scumlist includes Blazinghand, Toadeastern and Jackal but I barring some meteorically Town post from Palmar, I can't include him on a mission list I'd yay. I'm similarly biased against Radfield solely because he chose the first team that ended in failure. Statistically, it seems like D1 would be town favored, so the fact that our N1 ended in failure makes me mistrust Radfield, albeit a little irrational.
If we can make it through tonight, we'll probably be okay N4 due to scum needing to include 2 of their number to sabotage the mission...therefor I'm weighing very carefully before yay'ing any teams for tonight.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 07:08 VisceraEyes wrote: BH, your flailing around and not making sense. But you sound town. So I'm at an impasse.
:/
On January 04 2012 07:08 VisceraEyes wrote: Right now my scumlist includes Blazinghand, Toadeastern and Jackal but I barring some meteorically Town post from Palmar, I can't include him on a mission list I'd yay. I'm similarly biased against Radfield solely because he chose the first team that ended in failure. Statistically, it seems like D1 would be town favored, so the fact that our N1 ended in failure makes me mistrust Radfield, albeit a little irrational.
OK I'M TOTALLY NOT DEFENDING RADFIELD but i feel the need to call out bad math.
There's about a 50% chance of exactly one spy on a randomly-selected N1 team of 3 players. There's a 21% chance of exactly two spies on a randomly-selected N1 team of 3 players.
Given that the first leader was chosen at random, there was a 33% chance of this leader being a spy, and a 67% chance of the leader being town. Assuming the leader is town, there's a (3/8) chance that the first guy he picks is a spy, and following that a 5/7th chance that the second guy he picks is town, leading to a 26% chance of one spy in permutation one. There's a 5/8th chance that the first guy he picks is a town, and a 3/7th chance that the second guy he picks is scum, leading to a 26% chance of one spy in the second permutation. If he makes two picks, there's a 3/8th chance the first pick is spy, and following that a 2/7th chance the second guy is spy, making it 12.5% chance he picked two spies to go with him.
This means that, assuming Radfield is town, there was a 56% chance of him picking exactly one spy, and a 12.5% chance he picked two spies if he picked completely at random.
My math from previously in the thread. + Show Spoiler +On January 02 2012 19:53 Blazinghand wrote: In the event of 1 spy on the d1 team: 33% chance of Blazinghand 33% chance of Palmar 33% chance of Radfield
What are (randomly) the odds of 1 spy on d1 team? there's a 1/3rd chance for the first guy to be a spy, right? so assuming that, for the other two not to be spy, there is a 3/4ths chance to not pick the 2/8 ppl who are spies, then a 5/7ths chance not to pick the 2/7 people who are spies, meaning there is a 1/3*3/4*5/7 = 0.1786 of the first guy being a spy
"but wait blazinghand" you say "what if the first guy is town, then the second guy is spy?
well don't worry man, i can help you with that. Check this: the odds of the first guy being town is 2/3rds, right? well ok if the second guy is a spy there's a 3/8ths chance of getting him as spy, then if the third guy is a town, there's a 5/7ths chance of him being town... which comes out to 2/3 * 3/8 * 5/7 = 0.1786 of the second guy being a spy
"oh shoot blazinghand" you say "how does that work?"
well, we're just multiplying probabilities, so the order doesn't matter, right? The one thing we can determine for sure is that it should be the same probability of a single person on that team being a spy. That makes sense, yes?
Adding these three probabilities together, the probabilities come out to 53% chance of exactly 1 spy on N1 team! That still leaves a lot of room for the possibility of 2 spies N1.
What are the odds of 2 spies on the d1 team? The odds of there being 2 spies means that after there has been picked a spy (1/3rd chance) there is another spy pick, either immediately (1/4 chance), and then the third spy ISN'T picked (6/7) chance or there is a town pick then a spy pick (the other 3/4 of the time, there is a 2/7 chance of a second spy). (1/3) * (2/8) * (6/7) = 0.0714, and with three combinatorial routes, this leaves us with a 21% chance of 2 spies on D1.
Well, what about the remaining 26% chance? There is a small but non-zero chance that there were no spies D1 (which wasn't the case, but for completeness sake) and the odds of that would be 2/3rd * 5/8 * 4/7 (order irrelevant) which gives us a 23% chance. There's also a very small chance that the mission actually contained 3 spies, which would be a 1/3rd * 2/7 * 1/6 = 1.5% chance. Very small.
Now you're probably thinking "Wait why would there be 3 spies N1, Blazinghand? that sounds horribly unlikely and sub-optimal for the spies, doesn't it?"
Why yes, reader, that DOES?
See, the thing a raw probability calculation like this leaves out is that in every situation, there's a chance that the spy is Radfield, rather than Blazinghand or Palmar. See, if Blazinghand or Palmar is the spy, that has no impact on whether the other dude (Blazinghand or Palmar) is the spy. However, if Radfield is the spy, he's the dude who put together the team. He could easily chose to include 1, 2, 3, or 0 spies regardless of probability.
This makes things much more interesting.
Now imagine you're Radfield. This means you are a spy and are totally devious and smart etc etc. So you lucked into a d1 captainship, and you get the feeling people are gonna sheep all over you. You posted a question and some people have made some vaguely scummy d1 posts (Zona, Blazinghand both made posts prior to Greymist's warning about posting anything that could be used as spy meta). What's an optimal strategy?
Well, as Radfield, you'd pick your scumbuddy Palmar, who has been judiciously silent, and Blazinghand. Blazinghand, being the mad nerd baller that he is, will nayvote the team, looking even scummier, but luckily the (now probably not) scum Jackal comes in and hammers the vote.
Now, you get into a big long argument with Blazinghand and Palmar sort of chills. Townies, operating under the assumption that there was 1 spy N1 (when really there were two-- you sabotaged and palmar did nothing, so it looked like there was only 1 spy), are not going to select an "only new dudes" 4-man team. They don't want to select Blazinghand, because you've made a case against him. And, despite (or because of) your best efforts, Blazinghand has made a case of sorts against you.
Naturally, the pick Palmar. You wait until a team of 3 townies plus Palmar gets suggested, and of course it passes-- nobody wants a team with Blazinghand on it, and you are vaguely suspicious to some.
Palmar sabotages, and now things are looking scary. People immediately assume it's not Palmar, even though he's the common article between the two missions. Some people are like "Well radfield isn't confirmed town any more" and some people are suspicious of Palmar, but Blazinghand is still on everyone's scum list...
and then your Third man swoops in, Zona, who busts out this big "Blazinghand and Rad are working together" theory and it doesn't really make sense but people buy it because people will buy things when they're desperate. Zona took a hit earlier during the "is this a scum strat being said" deal, but things start to make sense. Radfield/Blazinghand/Zona? could be. Radfield/Blazinghand/someone else? maybe.
But these people aren't paying attention to the facts and the facts are that Radfield is scummy and the ONLY REASON HE WOULD BRING ME D1 when I looked scummy would be to entrap me as he has! it's an elaborate plot
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
However, all that math is irrelevant because Radfield is scum.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Oh yeah and as a side note, when we put together a 4-man team of all town players tonight, it means we're set for N4 as well, BUT NOT FOR N5. N4 is the only night that requires 2 spies to sabotage, probably specifically because this game is designed for town to fail two nights in a row then win N3 and N4, or at least come into N4 with scum leading 2-1.
If we nail it today it'll go to the ace match.
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That math is irrelevant because it's based on Radfield picking totally at random and Radfield doesn't pick totally at random Blaze. No one does, whether they profess to or not...and Radfield actually STATED that his choice wasn't at random...so your 'math' is literally meaningless.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
You seriously just put scare quotes around the word Math?
YOU BROUGHT UP STATISTICS. You are basic a read of off WRONG MATH. I corrected that math. Then you say "math is irrelevant"
On January 04 2012 07:08 VisceraEyes wrote: Statistically, it seems like D1 would be town favored, so the fact that our N1 ended in failure makes me mistrust Radfield, albeit a little irrational.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
VE wrote: Statistically it seems like D1 would be town favored
I just pointed out that D1 literally isn't town favored.
How can you try to cop out of that. How is this a thing.
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I'm not basing any read on any statistics. You'll notice that Radfield isn't on my scumlist. I said why I mistrust Rad, not why I believe Rad is scum.
Your math IS irrelevant because it assumes totally random selection when Radfield didn't select totally at random. He chose based on the information inside the thread...which was obviously limited due to it being D1, but it was still enough for him to choose his team based on. It wasn't random, and it makes your argument that N1 is scum favored totally irrelevant because it wasn't random.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
BTW I'm not saying VE is scum or anything, he's just inconsistent and didn't think about the math, and then he's like "well blazinghand why did you bring up math" and what am I gonna do here, not tell him he's wrong? because he IS wrong, you know.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 07:31 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm not basing any read on any statistics. You'll notice that Radfield isn't on my scumlist. I said why I mistrust Rad, not why I believe Rad is scum.
Your math IS irrelevant because it assumes totally random selection when Radfield didn't select totally at random. He chose based on the information inside the thread...which was obviously limited due to it being D1, but it was still enough for him to choose his team based on. It wasn't random, and it makes your argument that N1 is scum favored totally irrelevant because it wasn't random.
Alright, I'll buy that argument. That's fair enough.
What, then, was the meaning of this sentence?
On January 04 2012 07:08 VisceraEyes wrote: Statistically, it seems like D1 would be town favored, so the fact that our N1 ended in failure makes me mistrust Radfield, albeit a little irrational.
You mention that the failure N1 makes you mistrust Radfield. That's fine-- I feel the same way.
But what's that first phrase there?
On January 04 2012 07:08 VisceraEyes wrote: Statistically, it seems like D1 would be town favored,
When you say "statistically"
you mean "well, statistically but not using any math"??
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I guess "statistically" should read "balance-wise" because it's not really based on math...it just seems to me that based on discussion and the fact that there's no concrete information to manipulate yet, town would have a better showing on D1 than on any other day...but I guess that doesn't make sense because they could just pick the same team D2 and so on, so yeah disregard the bit about Radfield. It doesn't make sense. Radfield is okay by me.
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Blaze, what in particular do you not like about Palmar? His posts, while infrequent and succinct, have appeared more town than I'd expect from Palmafia.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
:D I'm glad we could come to an agreement, but the point isn't that Radfield is innocent. He's still scum, just for different reasons. Look, people thought I was scum D1 right? It was after this post:
On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote:
Team: Radfield (yourself, who is confirmed town to you), plus Zona (for example), plus someone who gives off a solid town read like, say, Blazinghand. If the mission fails, you can reasonably say "well I think this was Zona" (though others will not be able to do so). The beauty of this though is, assuming you're right about the "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad", If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
A post like this which shared spy information is very scummy, and several people pointed this out, which is why people were suspicious of both Zona and myself who made posts like this on day 1. It's why Zona didn't even bother making a team because people were probably gonna mass nayvote it anyways.
There's no way a reasonable town player would have put me on the team, but Rad did. For this reason I think he is scum (that and his lack of justifications, and his lack of acknowledgment that he used the team I suggested he use...)
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On January 04 2012 07:43 Blazinghand wrote::D I'm glad we could come to an agreement, but the point isn't that Radfield is innocent. He's still scum, just for different reasons. Look, people thought I was scum D1 right? It was after this post: Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote:
Team: Radfield (yourself, who is confirmed town to you), plus Zona (for example), plus someone who gives off a solid town read like, say, Blazinghand. If the mission fails, you can reasonably say "well I think this was Zona" (though others will not be able to do so). The beauty of this though is, assuming you're right about the "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad", If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
A post like this which shared spy information is very scummy, and several people pointed this out, which is why people were suspicious of both Zona and myself who made posts like this on day 1. It's why Zona didn't even bother making a team because people were probably gonna mass nayvote it anyways. There's no way a reasonable town player would have put me on the team, but Rad did. For this reason I think he is scum (that and his lack of justifications, and his lack of acknowledgment that he used the team I suggested he use...)
Can you explain what you mean by the bolded statement?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 07:46 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 07:43 Blazinghand wrote::D I'm glad we could come to an agreement, but the point isn't that Radfield is innocent. He's still scum, just for different reasons. Look, people thought I was scum D1 right? It was after this post: On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote:
Team: Radfield (yourself, who is confirmed town to you), plus Zona (for example), plus someone who gives off a solid town read like, say, Blazinghand. If the mission fails, you can reasonably say "well I think this was Zona" (though others will not be able to do so). The beauty of this though is, assuming you're right about the "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad", If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
A post like this which shared spy information is very scummy, and several people pointed this out, which is why people were suspicious of both Zona and myself who made posts like this on day 1. It's why Zona didn't even bother making a team because people were probably gonna mass nayvote it anyways. There's no way a reasonable town player would have put me on the team, but Rad did. For this reason I think he is scum (that and his lack of justifications, and his lack of acknowledgment that he used the team I suggested he use...) Can you explain what you mean by the bolded statement?
MAN ITS' LIKE NOBODY READS THE THREAD.
Look, read the quoted post. This was a post that explicitly discussed mafia strategy. In case you don't know, the mafia don't have a QT in this game, so they can't communicate. Posts like this are very scummy-- I basically suggested a mafia strat and communicated vital information that would allow for a 2-man mafia team, one of which is Radfield, to have Radfield sabotage and the other player not sabotage with ease.
this post is the reason everyone thinks i'm mafia, and zona (nominally) has a ridiculous "Rad and Blazinghand are scumbuddies" case, and also the reason we have a "no mafia strat discussions" rule.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
BTW I said "nominally" about zona's case because Zona is just bussing Rad and trying to get me implicated in an attempt to absolve the guilt of having made a similarly scummy post at about the same time I did-- in an attempt to get on and sabotage our D3 team.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I guess I have two chief beefs with Palmar. One is that he and radfield are pulling the stunt that Zona accuses me and radfield of doing (zona is in on it with them). The other is that he is the common factor between the d1 and d2 teams.
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Okay, I thought that's what you were referring to, but I wanted to make sure.
Seriously guy, you need to STOP saying people aren't reading the thread. I just said that I read the thread, I can assure you I've read the thread. I was asking about your phrasing. You phrased it like you had scum information to share. You phrased it like you're guilty. That's what I was asking about. You were referring to Palmar's post that makes it out to be scummy, I know that now...but what you said was "shared spy information" which caused my confusion.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 07:55 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay, I thought that's what you were referring to, but I wanted to make sure.
Seriously guy, you need to STOP saying people aren't reading the thread. I just said that I read the thread, I can assure you I've read the thread. I was asking about your phrasing. You phrased it like you had scum information to share. You phrased it like you're guilty. That's what I was asking about. You were referring to Palmar's post that makes it out to be scummy, I know that now...but what you said was "shared spy information" which caused my confusion.
Yeah by "shared spy information" i meant "mentioned that the 2nd spy would intentionally not sabotage"
Like, given that everyone seems to have a scum read on me, I ASSUMED that people would know WHY they had a scum read on me. However, of the 8 non-me people in the thread, 3 of them don't actually have a good reason and are mafia. The other 5 have a bad reason but don't realize it's bad.
You could see how Zona's argument could be alluring. Yes, of course! Radfield and Blazinhand in cahoots. But really I'm being framed. However, Zona's arguments that Rad is scum are totally valid.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 07:59 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 07:55 VisceraEyes wrote: Okay, I thought that's what you were referring to, but I wanted to make sure.
Seriously guy, you need to STOP saying people aren't reading the thread. I just said that I read the thread, I can assure you I've read the thread. I was asking about your phrasing. You phrased it like you had scum information to share. You phrased it like you're guilty. That's what I was asking about. You were referring to Palmar's post that makes it out to be scummy, I know that now...but what you said was "shared spy information" which caused my confusion. Yeah by "shared spy information" i meant "mentioned that the 2nd spy would intentionally not sabotage" Like, given that everyone seems to have a scum read on me, I ASSUMED that people would know WHY they had a scum read on me. However, of the 8 non-me people in the thread, 3 of them don't actually have a good reason and are mafia. The other 5 have a bad reason but don't realize it's bad. You could see how Zona's argument could be alluring. Yes, of course! Radfield and Blazinhand in cahoots. But really I'm being framed. However, Zona's arguments that Rad is scum are totally valid.
Actually, hold on a sec-- assuming you didn't know about that post, why did you have a scum read on me?
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I've made the reasons I find you scummy crystal clear. I'm not going to try and convince you that you're scum Blaze.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
So, to sum it up, this was your initial argument that I was scum: + Show Spoiler +On December 29 2011 08:00 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 14:21 Blazinghand wrote: P.S.: although Rad's team has 3 votes, he hasn't voted for it yet, meaning that the next non-Radfield person who votes for it will let him vote for it to make it 5. Think carefully about the way this guy has presented his case and his picks before you vote. FoS BlazinghandRadfield has been catching a lot of flak for the way he chose his initial team...but the thing is, nothing can happen until we have some information, which we have now. I liked Palmar's post about people discussing Spy strategy, and I liked Radfield's posting d1...so that leaves me with Blazinghand. And he made this post just before the day ended. Like, if you're town and you're on the team, why would you want to cast suspicion on who picked you? I will insta-nay any team that includes Blazinghand. Smooches. On December 29 2011 09:55 VisceraEyes wrote:/:| (that's a raised eyebrow...at you sir.) Calm down a second. First of all, you just got back from a failed mission, and you shouldn't be calling ANYONE spy. Now, I found your post suspicious REGARDLESS of when it was made. The content was what I had a problem with (if you'll kindly read MY post on the matter...which you're either ignoring or intentionally overlooking.) The fact that you Nay'd a team that included you (as town) doesn't make any sense. I can understand after N1 maybe because you have more information, but ALL you have to go on, as town, is YOUR alignment...so a team that includes you is more likely to succeed by virtue of you being town. But I wouldn't expect a Spy like you to think in those terms.
You revise to:
+ Show Spoiler +On December 30 2011 00:46 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 21:00 Zona wrote:Actually, there's one thing I posted that I regret, which you guys should be calling me out on: On December 27 2011 06:44 Zona wrote: However, the other factor in the game is that a spy could be the leader - and then this person could pretty much do whatever the heck he/she wanted. 1 spy on the team? Done. Or maybe 2 spies on the team while trying to subtly tell the other spy not to sabotage? Dunno. On day 1 I doubt we can really tell with confidence if the leader is a spy or not, so I believe that Radfield should be the one to pick. On later days we may want to reject picks from suspected spy leaders. It's for this reason that if Truth's team is rejected, I will forgo choosing a team and all of you should just vote nay on me. That means GreY should start thinking about what team to propose. As for Truth's team, I'm still mulling over whether or not Truth is likely town, because I think whether or not the team is good solely depends on if Truth is town. Believe it or not, I was waiting to see which of Palmar or Radfield called you out on it. XD The fact that Palmar didn't doesn't sit well with me...but I'm still in favor of the 1 scum on N1 mission, and I still think that's Blaze at this juncture...
Then... + Show Spoiler +On January 01 2012 16:21 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 12:28 TruthBringer wrote: I think you guys are way off. You think it is more likely that Palmar is a spy and Greymist, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes, Radfield, and Blazinghand are all townies?
I think it is more likely that 1 of Radfield and Blazinghand was a spy, and 1 of Greymist, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes is a spy.
In that case, I would say Blazinghand is a spy and Toadesstern is a spy. This post resonates with me. Toad has seemed to me to be kinda iffy with his suspicions. I'm rereading and keeping a particular eye on BH and Toad.
and finally...
On January 04 2012 07:08 VisceraEyes wrote: BH, your flailing around and not making sense. But you sound town. So I'm at an impasse.
So basically your argument is that I nay-voted a team with myself on it on Day 1, but I sound town-- is this accurate?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 08:22 VisceraEyes wrote: I've made the reasons I find you scummy crystal clear. I'm not going to try and convince you that you're scum Blaze. Like, VE, I want you to imagine-- IMAGINE that I'm not trying to get you to convince me that I'm scum, as you so cutely imply, but rather, I'm trying to convince you that i'm town, because we need to get today's team right. Imagine that basically everything I've done in this thread has been helpful, I've suggested good teams, and I've generally voted in an accurate fashion...
Is it really so impossible, so unbelievably unlikely, that I'm just a massive baller (MASSIVE) and I fingered rad's day 1 actions as suspicious? Zona, acting on the same information (if you believe Zona's case) has done the same, putting together a case against both me AND Rad based on our day 1 actions. Do you think Zona's case is reasonable whereas mine was not? I think I made the right call. I think I'm a massive, massive baller.
I'm an aggressive player. That's how I play. Check out my play in XLVII (my filter) or Student Mafia (my filter). I am often abrasive and I make calls based on my reads, and vote aggressively.
That's what I do.
I think my d1 play was fine (aside from that post which contained potential spy strat ._.) and my play in general is like this. If you think i'm mafia just because i'm aggressive, think harder.
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It was about the manner in which you nay-voted a team that included you, but yes. That's about the gist of it. And your content sounds town, like, you genuinely sound like you're trying to find scum - except you call everyone who disagrees with you scum or just bad and fall immediately to "LOOK WHO'S NOT READING THE THREAD HURRDURR" any time someone asks something of you, which is intensely scummy to me.
To be honest my read on you very well could be play-style related, and I might end up replacing you with Palmar on my scum-list depending on how this all shakes out.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
In any case, it's kind of a WIFOM move of me to suggest that I'm following my own town meta, but check out my filters in XLVII and Student Mafia. I am a strident fellow. I'm not sure I can make a case for my defense that's more comprehensive than the two posts I just made-- but I think this should be fairly convincing.
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On January 04 2012 05:52 Blazinghand wrote: Which yes/no question are you answering? I the "Do you agree with Zona" one or the "do you have another scumread" one? No I have no other real reads. I think perhaps I have approached this game in entirely the wrong manner. The spies know who they all are. I have read this damn game about 500 times looking for anything that appears to be connections between 3 people. Reoccurring connections. Hidden messages. Breadcrumbs. I see nothing. I can make the same lame connections to everybody in this game. Nobody dies. The pool of candidates does not shrink. The yay and nay votes are all over the place. I can't line anybody up with anything. All I see are 2 failed missions and the people that were on them. A minimum of 2 are scum. Perhaps all 3 have been chosen. I have no clue. I tried to pick a team avoiding those that went on a prior mission that I think are spies. That's all I can do. Now I'm going out for the evening.
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Jackal bowling can WAIT bro! This is a LYLO situation!
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 08:39 VisceraEyes wrote: It was about the manner in which you nay-voted a team that included you, but yes. That's about the gist of it. And your content sounds town, like, you genuinely sound like you're trying to find scum - except you call everyone who disagrees with you scum or just bad and fall immediately to "LOOK WHO'S NOT READING THE THREAD HURRDURR" any time someone asks something of you, which is intensely scummy to me.
TO BE FAIR, I don't say that to EVEYRONE who disagrees with me. For example, I think you're town and put you on my team, despite the fact that I was initially very aggressive in my interactions with you. Furthermore, although maybe I should back off on the "omg read the thread" stuff i've been saying, it does get somewhat aggravating when you get situations like this:
On January 04 2012 06:12 Blazinghand wrote: All my mocking aside, I do actually think VE is probably town... My current scumlist is Radfield, Palmar, Zona. ._.
On January 04 2012 06:32 GreYMisT wrote: VE i would like to know who you think is the spy team.
Blazinghand and Radfield same question.
I didn't think Greymist took 20 minutes to write that post, and given my previous "greymist isn't reading my posts" interactions, I was not very pleased.
I'll lay off on the thread-reading stuff if it happens again and just quote relevant posts and make sarcastic smiley faces and ;_; faces in the future.
In any case, if you're fine with my content but dislike my tone, do check out how my tone usually is-- it's possible you're just not a fan of my playstyle, which I get, but sometimes that's just how a brotha rolls
Also Jackal it would be nice if you stuck around and cleared your name if you're town since we kinda need this mission to succeed. you know.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 08:45 Jackal58 wrote: All I see are 2 failed missions and the people that were on them. A minimum of 2 are scum. Perhaps all 3 have been chosen. I have no clue. I tried to pick a team avoiding those that went on a prior mission that I think are spies. That's all I can do. Now I'm going out for the evening.
Actually... a minimum of 1 who have been selected so far are scum. It's not impossible that Palmar alone sabotages both missions.
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Alright I am going to nay vote Jackal's team. I will admit that I don't have the best of reads this game, and from what I have seen everyone is kinda in the same boat when it comes to that. We are in a flipping terrible position, as we have very little room for testing and manuverbility at the moment. So im just going to throw out what I think, and hope that something sticks.
I have reevaluated the entire thread from a completely fresh point of veiw, and have come up with some different opinions. I think the scum team consists of Rad, Toad, and Jackal, with my level of suspicion decreasing from left to right.
I would like to reiterate, none of my reasons are super awesome, but its what I got.
Radfield's posting and general attitude this game strikes me as different than the way he posts as town. because this is a different format than we are all used to this means almost nothing, but it made him warrant suspicion from me. what turns me off about him is the way he instantly shifted blame onto blazing, without even considering the posibility that palmar is scum. i feel a town radfield would be all over palmar to post more. Look at election mafia where they were both town. both of their activity levels were good and they were working together to find scum. here they are completely disjointed. next observe the way he dismisses zona's case as simply "bad" this also strikes me as slightly off. He also keeps saying "guys we need to work together and contribute" but he isnt really talking things over in the thread with most of us. Again, not much. but w/e.
Toad strikes me for the following 2 reasons. first he was on my team that failed. second is that he two began pushing blazing hard along with rad. The absense of a scum QT in this game leads me to believe that he wanted to follow rad with what he was doing, and discredit the easy target.
Jackal is my weakest read. Something is just off about the way he is playing this game to me. also something that caught my attention was the way rad asked him his team earlier. this is something easy that scum would do to each other to look like they are contributing.
Palmar and VE, i would be eager to learn your thoughts on this.
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Grey, can you not replace Radfield with Palmar and make exactly the same case?
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On January 04 2012 09:35 VisceraEyes wrote: Grey, can you not replace Radfield with Palmar and make exactly the same case?
possibly close to it, yes. These three just struck me the hardest. Anything else to say about this?
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What do you think about a Radfield/Palmar/Jackal team Grey?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Something like that makes sense, but why are we discounting the possibility of a Radfield/Palmar/Zona team? Unless Zona's D1 "slip-up" was an honest mistake like mine... in which case Zona's "there were two spies N1" theory could apply to Rad/Palm.
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On January 04 2012 09:50 VisceraEyes wrote: What do you think about a Radfield/Palmar/Jackal team Grey?
well, considering i said that i dont like both radfield and jackal, and that you pointed out a reason i should be worried about palmar, I would say a team of those players right now would be pretty strange. especially because our teams require 4 players now.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 09:57 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 09:50 VisceraEyes wrote: What do you think about a Radfield/Palmar/Jackal team Grey? well, considering i said that i dont like both radfield and jackal, and that you pointed out a reason i should be worried about palmar, I would say a team of those players right now would be pretty strange. especially because our teams require 4 players now.
I believe he's saying quite the opposite: that he thinks the SPY team is Rad/Palm/Jack.
At least, I hope that's what he's saying >.>
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The thing is, the more I think about it, the less scummy it seems to be to 'discuss scum strategy'....I mean, it makes sense at first glance, but I'm having trouble finding an upside to keeping everyone in the dark as to how scum might operate at this point in the game. It's LYLO, or the Resistance equivalent of such. We need as much information as possible to make this mission a success.
Now, Blaze I will say that I at no point found your post discussing spy strategy to be scummy. Ever. My read on you has been based on your interactions with Radfield and the way you've been pushing your cases. It's felt off to me. I'm willing to admit that it's possibly just a playstyle difference thing.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree with Zona. Her game has been pretty solidly town by my estimation. Where did your Toad suspicion go? He OMGUS'd you D1 hard, why is he suddenly town to you?
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On January 04 2012 09:59 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 09:57 GreYMisT wrote:On January 04 2012 09:50 VisceraEyes wrote: What do you think about a Radfield/Palmar/Jackal team Grey? well, considering i said that i dont like both radfield and jackal, and that you pointed out a reason i should be worried about palmar, I would say a team of those players right now would be pretty strange. especially because our teams require 4 players now. I believe he's saying quite the opposite: that he thinks the SPY team is Rad/Palm/Jack. At least, I hope that's what he's saying >.>
This. Also we're building a team of 4 for the mission yes?
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On January 04 2012 09:59 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 09:57 GreYMisT wrote:On January 04 2012 09:50 VisceraEyes wrote: What do you think about a Radfield/Palmar/Jackal team Grey? well, considering i said that i dont like both radfield and jackal, and that you pointed out a reason i should be worried about palmar, I would say a team of those players right now would be pretty strange. especially because our teams require 4 players now. I believe he's saying quite the opposite: that he thinks the SPY team is Rad/Palm/Jack. At least, I hope that's what he's saying >.>
Oh, ok thank god. If that is the case I feel a team like that is probable. The problem is that on day 1 one of radfield or palmar would not have sabotaged. There are of course tons of ways to breadcrumb this that only people who knew for certain the scumteam would know to look for.
The more that I think about it the more that team makes sense in my head. assuming that team is correct, rad choose palmar as well as himself, and then chose to not sabatoge, allowing palmar to, or vice versa. the risk in this is that no sabotage would happen, in which case the same team would get picked, and they would have another day to breadcrumb who to sabotage. your team would also work with the day2 sabotage as well.
So in short, yes I feel both teams are about equally probable.
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At this point, I think it is okay to discuss spy strategy in the thread. All that matters is picking 4 townies for tonight and as someone already pointed out, if we do so, we get through night 3 and night 4.
Any communication that might happen between spies would have no negative impact for us, because as long as there is one spy on the team, we lose. Spy communication really only has a bearing on what they do if there are multiple spies on a given night, and our only hope is if there are zero spies tonight.
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I'll insta-yay a team that includes VE, Greymist, Blazinghand, Zona
Just putting that out there.
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On January 04 2012 10:50 TruthBringer wrote: At this point, I think it is okay to discuss spy strategy in the thread. All that matters is picking 4 townies for tonight and as someone already pointed out, if we do so, we get through night 3 and night 4.
Any communication that might happen between spies would have no negative impact for us, because as long as there is one spy on the team, we lose. Spy communication really only has a bearing on what they do if there are multiple spies on a given night, and our only hope is if there are zero spies tonight. Name 4 townies. Palmar picks next. I'm voting nay on anything Palmar proposes.
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On January 04 2012 10:50 TruthBringer wrote: At this point, I think it is okay to discuss spy strategy in the thread. All that matters is picking 4 townies for tonight and as someone already pointed out, if we do so, we get through night 3 and night 4.
Any communication that might happen between spies would have no negative impact for us, because as long as there is one spy on the team, we lose. Spy communication really only has a bearing on what they do if there are multiple spies on a given night, and our only hope is if there are zero spies tonight. Oh look it's a spy.
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I already named 4 townies. Me, Palmar, VE, greymist.
I even named a backup 4 townies, (if people think it is too self-serving including myself) Radfield, Palmar, VE, greymist.)
The reason I think it is okay to discuss spy strategy now is that we might be able to figure out who the spies are from spy behavior. For instance, I didn't want to say it earlier, because the spies might actually have used it, but initially I thought that Blazinghand's nayvote on the first night was a signal to his spy teammate (Radfield) to say "I won't be sabotaging, you sabotage."
Since then, I've decided that Radfield and Palmar both seem town, so Blazinghand was just nay-voting to receive towncredit when he inevitably knew the mission would fail.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
So it couldn't possibly occur to you, even in the slightest, that I thought Radfield was scum? your entire case against me is "I nayvoted the day 1 team I was on, and I couldn't possible have thought Rad was scum"?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 12:44 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 10:50 TruthBringer wrote: At this point, I think it is okay to discuss spy strategy in the thread. All that matters is picking 4 townies for tonight and as someone already pointed out, if we do so, we get through night 3 and night 4.
Any communication that might happen between spies would have no negative impact for us, because as long as there is one spy on the team, we lose. Spy communication really only has a bearing on what they do if there are multiple spies on a given night, and our only hope is if there are zero spies tonight. Oh look it's a spy.
At first I was like "lol jackal good attempt to dodge" then I realized TruthBringer would include Radfield AND Palmar ._.
and now I am confused again.
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On January 04 2012 09:16 GreYMisT wrote: Toad strikes me for the following 2 reasons. first he was on my team that failed. second is that he two began pushing blazing hard along with rad. The absense of a scum QT in this game leads me to believe that he wanted to follow rad with what he was doing, and discredit the easy target.. Holy we got a lot of text to read. I'm at this point and everything posted later on still needs to be read by me but that one got me posting because it's wrong.
Radfield was not the guy who started pushing BH. I was the very first guy who questioned him. If anything Radfield saw the need to follow my lead because we got no QT which I doubt as I think he's capable of doing decisions himself without having to follow a guy who's in his 5th game.
Quoting time (keeping it oldschool to not get a big ass post):
BH-Post-> My Question -> Radfields Question -> Explaining my intentions
So no, BH posted something weird. I asked him about this to get some information because the moment he said he aims for a successful mission I would have gone full nuts on him and Radfield literally did the same just without keeping the question open like I did. He just told him that his post is a problem and contradicting himself if he wants a successful mission. Followed by myself explaining that that's what I thought as well and therefore asked BH what he want's achieve in the first place.
Reading the rest now
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On January 04 2012 10:51 VisceraEyes wrote: I'll insta-yay a team that includes VE, Greymist, Blazinghand, Zona
Just putting that out there.
Yeah and I'm going to nayvote that instantly because I think you're a spy. I actually don't see a reason why people should suggest VE at all. We thought VE's town d1 because of that one post he did. Now that he went lurking the read is literally a null at most.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Well, if Radfield and you thought I was scummy, doesn't that makes it even WEIRDER that radfield would pick me for a team? Wouldn't that seem a little *off* to you? It seems off to me, which is the reasoning for my suspicion of radfield. Think about radfield's motivations here-- why would he bring me along, with almost now reasoning?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 16:46 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 10:51 VisceraEyes wrote: I'll insta-yay a team that includes VE, Greymist, Blazinghand, Zona
Just putting that out there. Yeah and I'm going to nayvote that instantly because I think you're a spy. I actually don't see a reason why people should suggest VE at all. We thought VE's town d1 because of that one post he did. Now that he went lurking the read is literally a null at most. Are you now up-to-date with your post-reading?
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Team Rejected!
A team consisting of None has been rejected for this mission!
Final vote count: Yays: Nays: Radfield Blazinghand GreYMisT TruthBringer Toadesstern
The new leader is Palmar whose team is: None
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On January 04 2012 16:48 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:46 Toadesstern wrote:On January 04 2012 10:51 VisceraEyes wrote: I'll insta-yay a team that includes VE, Greymist, Blazinghand, Zona
Just putting that out there. Yeah and I'm going to nayvote that instantly because I think you're a spy. I actually don't see a reason why people should suggest VE at all. We thought VE's town d1 because of that one post he did. Now that he went lurking the read is literally a null at most. Are you now up-to-date with your post-reading?
kind of yeah. Still rereading because I only went fast to get done with it and focus on posts when I'm done with catching up but if you got something shoot me.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 16:50 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:48 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 16:46 Toadesstern wrote:On January 04 2012 10:51 VisceraEyes wrote: I'll insta-yay a team that includes VE, Greymist, Blazinghand, Zona
Just putting that out there. Yeah and I'm going to nayvote that instantly because I think you're a spy. I actually don't see a reason why people should suggest VE at all. We thought VE's town d1 because of that one post he did. Now that he went lurking the read is literally a null at most. Are you now up-to-date with your post-reading? kind of yeah. Still rereading because I only went fast to get done with it and focus on posts when I'm done with catching up but if you got something shoot me.
So I've recently made a fairly comprehensive series of posts detailing my innocence and the scumminess of Rad/Palm. I was just wondering what your thoughts are on this post.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Also, I'm nayvoting Palmar's team since I think he's scum.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Alright i'm gonna get some sleep
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Well Palmar still gives me Townreads, so does Rad and so do you right now. I'm actually willing to believe that the spy is either Rad or you right now as VE should be a spy as well just because of the fact that there was only 1 spy sabotage on d2. But yeah I still agree that we should nayvote palmar because it's just too dangerous. Judging who was spy d1 is giving me headaches.
The big issue I have is that the next few leaders aren't exaclty nice as well: Palmar (nay) -> VE (nay) -> Radfield (probably nay now?) -> Truthbringer (nay) -> Zona+Grey+Toad all okayish if the suggested teams are ok and we're kind of in a rush right now (given how long it takes a nay-vote a single guy...)
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As proposed earlier:
Palmar Radfield VisceraEyes Truthbringer
For obvious reasons, I think. I am pretty sure the scum during the first night was BlazingHand, so Radfield and I are clear. It's almost certain that one of Zona or Jackal is scum, I'm leaning towards it being Zona due to the case against Radfield/Blazinghand, which is another reason why I think Radfield is clear. However, it's too risky to put Jackal on the team, and in my opinion Truthbringer looks a lot better (he is spot on that talking about spy strategies is completely fine now, since any and all spies on tonight's team would sabotage to end the game, they don't need to communicate anymore), and for some reason Jackal is attempting to call him scum based on it.
VisceraEyes started posting again, and I already had a decent townread on him since early in the game. I know scum and possibly some sceptical townies are going to vote against this team.
It's on my head by the way, this is what I could best come up with this game. I think the scumteam is Toad/Zona/Blazinghand, and I think Greymist/Jackal are the townies I've left out. I could obviously be wrong on either but I'm starting to think I am not.
To pass a team that has 4 townies on it, 5 townies (all but one) need to approve of it, so please take a long hard look on my reasoning and see if you agree with it. If you are town, you need to be seriously looking at this team.
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On January 04 2012 09:16 GreYMisT wrote: Alright I am going to nay vote Jackal's team. I will admit that I don't have the best of reads this game, and from what I have seen everyone is kinda in the same boat when it comes to that. We are in a flipping terrible position, as we have very little room for testing and manuverbility at the moment. So im just going to throw out what I think, and hope that something sticks.
I have reevaluated the entire thread from a completely fresh point of veiw, and have come up with some different opinions. I think the scum team consists of Rad, Toad, and Jackal, with my level of suspicion decreasing from left to right.
I would like to reiterate, none of my reasons are super awesome, but its what I got.
Radfield's posting and general attitude this game strikes me as different than the way he posts as town. because this is a different format than we are all used to this means almost nothing, but it made him warrant suspicion from me. what turns me off about him is the way he instantly shifted blame onto blazing, without even considering the posibility that palmar is scum. i feel a town radfield would be all over palmar to post more. Look at election mafia where they were both town. both of their activity levels were good and they were working together to find scum. here they are completely disjointed. next observe the way he dismisses zona's case as simply "bad" this also strikes me as slightly off. He also keeps saying "guys we need to work together and contribute" but he isnt really talking things over in the thread with most of us. Again, not much. but w/e.
Toad strikes me for the following 2 reasons. first he was on my team that failed. second is that he two began pushing blazing hard along with rad. The absense of a scum QT in this game leads me to believe that he wanted to follow rad with what he was doing, and discredit the easy target.
Jackal is my weakest read. Something is just off about the way he is playing this game to me. also something that caught my attention was the way rad asked him his team earlier. this is something easy that scum would do to each other to look like they are contributing.
Palmar and VE, i would be eager to learn your thoughts on this.
I can completely relate to (and by the activity levels, most everyone can) posting slightly less this game. As I already explained, Radfield is posting exactly how I'd expect him to post. Maybe the volume is less than usual, but it's the content that matters.
Toad I agree with you on.
Jackal is... meh.... maybe Zona isn't scum, and just bad for that case, but I think the more likely scenario is that jackal is just lazy/apathetic. I would not dream of putting him on a team though, because he is very, very hard to read, especially when he contributes as little as he has done this game.
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On January 04 2012 09:35 VisceraEyes wrote: Grey, can you not replace Radfield with Palmar and make exactly the same case?
This is essentially correct, doesn't tell us much about Greymist, he may just be lazy, or he may not have included all his reasons. The fact that VE notices makes VE more likely to be town.
On January 04 2012 09:56 Blazinghand wrote: Something like that makes sense, but why are we discounting the possibility of a Radfield/Palmar/Zona team? Unless Zona's D1 "slip-up" was an honest mistake like mine... in which case Zona's "there were two spies N1" theory could apply to Rad/Palm.
I have no words, that's such a far-fetched scenario, not only is Zona's initial case insane enough to be immediately discarded (not the notion that they both could be spies, but the reasoning behind it), but you're adding in that it's some kind of a crazy half-bus?
There is no chance you're town.
On January 04 2012 10:06 VisceraEyes wrote: The thing is, the more I think about it, the less scummy it seems to be to 'discuss scum strategy'....I mean, it makes sense at first glance, but I'm having trouble finding an upside to keeping everyone in the dark as to how scum might operate at this point in the game. It's LYLO, or the Resistance equivalent of such. We need as much information as possible to make this mission a success.
This is correct. The fact that both VisceraEyes and Truthbringer brought this point up reinforces my town read on them. The scum, knowing that I'm not scum, are much less likely to go directly against something I've basically laid down as policy for the town.
It's a town trait to break the rules at the correct moment, and at the moment, it has no impact upon the game to discuss spy strategies. The reason I didn't want people to do it initially was obviously so that there was no chance of spies slipping messages into their posts, thus being able to only single-sabotage on a double-spy team, which is immensely beneficial to a spy team, since it basically is giving us a false list check.
so yeah, today it doesn't matter, we're equally fucked if there is one spy or more spies on the team, so they have no reason to try and communicate anything like this.
But I think the original policy served is purpose, obviously there are some people that are trying to push the idea there was more than one spy on the first or second day, but really, if I put myself in the spy position on day 1, with no information, and no solid clues from a partner, I'd sabotage every time, and by assuming that everyone else would do the same, I think the chances of there being 2 spies on day 1 or 2 are very slim.
which means the information we have is 2 list checks of 1/3 mafia and 1/4 mafia, in addition, I (and most people who are actually reading the thread) know that there are 2 different mafia on those two teams.
The goal here is to find 4 townies, if you want, you can look for 3 scum and then exclude 2 scummy townies, but the ultimate goal is to find 4 townies.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Blazinghand, you keep writing that people found you scummy on Day 1, and therefore it was strange for me to put you on the team. But that is untrue. Go re-read Day 1, and you will find the only player who thought you were suspicious was Toad. Your 'spy' post is not the reason people found you scummy then or now. Notice also that 5 other players approved my team, so it's very unlikely that a bunch of people found you scummy.
Greymist Wrote: Radfield's posting and general attitude this game strikes me as different than the way he posts as town. because this is a different format than we are all used to this means almost nothing, but it made him warrant suspicion from me. what turns me off about him is the way he instantly shifted blame onto blazing, without even considering the posibility that palmar is scum. i feel a town radfield would be all over palmar to post more. Look at election mafia where they were both town. both of their activity levels were good and they were working together to find scum. here they are completely disjointed. next observe the way he dismisses zona's case as simply "bad" this also strikes me as slightly off. He also keeps saying "guys we need to work together and contribute" but he isnt really talking things over in the thread with most of us. Again, not much. but w/e.
All the reasons you post here are false:
I specifically talked about the possibility of Palmar being scum, and even called out Blazinghand for doing what you accuse me of.
I encouraged Palmar to post more, and brought it up several times.
I have been actively trying to work together in the thread, both by encouraging others to post and by discussing issues with other players.
Those reads look a bit contrived, and it makes me more skeptical of Greymist.
I will back Palmars team, but I won't be voting on it in the Vthread just yet. I'm kinda putting all my eggs in the Palmar is town blazing is scum basket, but I'm ok with that at this point. VE is likely town, Truth is likely town. If there is scum on that team it is probably Palmar, but I doubt it.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 18:55 Palmar wrote: As proposed earlier:
Palmar Radfield VisceraEyes Truthbringer
I can't yay-vote a team with Palmar AND Radfield on it. We will immediately lose. Although it's possible one of you is town, it's not possible that you're both town. Palmar, if you really want to pass a team to convince me, you'll have to do better than this-- swap out Radfield for Greymist and i'd be happier. I'd still vote Nay, but i'd be happier.
On January 04 2012 19:19 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 09:56 Blazinghand wrote: Something like that makes sense, but why are we discounting the possibility of a Radfield/Palmar/Zona team? Unless Zona's D1 "slip-up" was an honest mistake like mine... in which case Zona's "there were two spies N1" theory could apply to Rad/Palm. I have no words, that's such a far-fetched scenario, not only is Zona's initial case insane enough to be immediately discarded (not the notion that they both could be spies, but the reasoning behind it), but you're adding in that it's some kind of a crazy half-bus? There is no chance you're town.
I don't think you're the real Palmar. The real Palmar plays like this:
1) identify obvious scum moves 2) one by one, identify town players, until it's clear who scum is 3) play cautiously and don't make mistakes
There's two possibilities here-- you're either a mistaken Palmar or a scum Palmar. I think you're a scum Palmar, because town Palmar wouldn't say "there is no chance you're town". Town Palmar would just point out that Radfield is clearly town, and note that I have to be scum if both he and Radfield were Town.
Town Palmar posts more and is better, so I think you're Scum Palmar.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 04 2012 22:11 Radfield wrote: I will back Palmars team, but I won't be voting on it in the Vthread just yet. I'm kinda putting all my eggs in the Palmar is town blazing is scum basket, but I'm ok with that at this point. VE is likely town, Truth is likely town. If there is scum on that team it is probably Palmar, but I doubt it.
Radfield if you really don't know which of us is town and which of us is scum, wouldn't it make more sense to not take a risk and back a team that doesn't include Palmar? I don't see why you'd be a fan of this team.
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Well deadline is in 3 and a half hour according to mission day3 text ( 5.1.2012 - 08:00 KST). Soooo unless that's somehow wrong we need to get kicking or we autolose
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I'm going to do the same as Rad: voted yay hoping spies are VE+BH and not VE + Palmar given we have so little time left because everything else is an insta-lose anyways...
So if I'm somehow wrong and the deadline is NOT in 3hours like the day-3-posts says pls tell me and I will reconsider this. Or if we get a bunch of people in this thread willing to change things.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I'm here right now. Who else is here? We need to put together a team ASAP. like, let's roll call, see if we have 5 people, and yay or nay something. I categorically refuse to yay-vote a team with both palmar and rad since that is assured death for us, as sure as the 3 hour deadline is-- but any team that does not include both of them is preferable to a sure loss.
I'm here.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
11. If a team has not been decided on by the end of the day phase, the mission automatically fail!
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 01 2012 10:12 Forumite wrote: [center]- Day 3 -
Mission 3 require 4 participants!
The day ends in just under 4 days, at 23:00 GMT (+00:00), or 08:00 KST the 5th of January, 2011.
WE HAVE LIKE 3 HOURS GUYS
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
This is a problem that could have been solved with pre-emptive nayvoting or you guys actually believing I can make legit calls on people being scum d1 but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Like, this would LITERALLY be the lamest way to lose this game.
Can we get an extension or something here cause this is gonna be super lame
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I'm F5ing here like 2-3 minutes. Man did Toad bail too? am I alone here?? ;_;
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nah I'm here and I'm going to be here for the next 3 hours. But as you're the only one here with me and you haven't posted something new to me I did not feel to update my "hey I'm still here"-status
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Yeah, okay, I got it. I'll keep on refreshing this thread. With only two people we can't actually do anything, but once we have 5 we can pre-emptive nayvote our way to one of us being team captain and force a team through.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Just to make it completely clear: I will auto-nayvote any team with both Radfield and Palmar. I'm more suspicious of Radfield than Palmar, so if we HAVE to include one, I GUESS Palmar will do, but I think they're both scum. If it really comes down to it, a team with just one of them is better than an auto loss.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Guys we have like 2 hours left
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I voted Nay because I'm not convinced Rad and Palmar are both town. Palmar never answered my question, I assume because he thinks I'm stupid and don't deserve an answer (if he's town) or can't (if he's scum). Either way, I can't yay a team that includes him at this time. I really hope we get some dudes in here pronto.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
OK so we're up to 3 dudes. We really need 2 more dudes
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I'm also going to preemptively put forward my team in the voting thread in case we can get a few more nays before the deadline.
It will include VisceraEyes, Greymist, Blazinghand, Zona
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I approve of that team. Toad, what do you think?
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I think you guys can preemptively Yay it too.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
If we can get 5 people on board We're totally set. VE you're the next leader right?
We just need 2 more people.
We can make this happen.
We must.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
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Rad and Palmar are scum - if they were town they would be in here trying to get a team together because if we don't pick a team the mission auto-fails and town loses. They don't care, therefor, they're scum.
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Toad if you're listening to reason and aren't scum, that makes Blaze town in spite of your misgivings.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Yeah anyone who's town right now is scrambling to get together a team so we don't auto lose. Radfield is Canadian which means it's between 1 pm and 4 pm where he is-- h e may be at work. But, if that's the case, this entire game's gonna be over before he comes home from work.
Palmar is Icelandic which means it's 9 pm for him right now-- he should be awake and online.
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Radfield is playing radically different from his normal play, and the fact that Palmar doesn't see it makes perfect sense if they're both scum. Like, Radfield claims to be trying to 'generate discussion' but all he discusses in detail is why Blaze HAS to be scum. Defending himself to no end against Blaze' onslaught of suspicion. To be fair, the reasons he "fingered Rad d1" are totally bogus and lent to why I thought Blaze was scum in the first place, but that doesn't change the facts here and now. Here and now, town is about to lose and a town Radfield wouldn't just pop in to say 'Nuh uh you guys' and leave again. Town Radfield would be trying to convince people...ESPECIALLY people he feels are likely townies.
Rad is scum, and Palmar's insistence that nothing is wrong with Rad's play makes Palmar scum too. The current team is bunk. Toad, I implore you to Nay the present team and Yay mine.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Indeed, we do need to Nay the present team as soon as possible, and Toad, we need your help for that. If you could stop being afk for a moment, please, give it a try.
Look, EVEN if you think I'm scum, EVEN SO, you have to admit that currently, VE and I will not accept that team. If I'm town, I will never accept a Palm+Rad team since the N1 mission failed. We need every vote we can get to avoid an autoloss here
Help us out.
Also, Palmar is in the TLMafia IRC, so his computer is physically powered on. Dunno what he's up to
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Don't use outside sources Blaze, 'swrongwitchoo?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Oh does that count as out-of-thread communication? D:
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Like, if I saw Palmar posting in the strategy forum and posted here "hey man why aren't you posting in mafia you're clearly online" would that be out of thread communication
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Blaze, the team is Rad Palmar and Toad...Toad isn't going to help us. This is pretty much over dawg.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
It has occured to me that Toad may be scum... but
IT'S NOT OVER YET. There's still the possibility of THREE more town players stopping by in the next two hours. With 5 players we can nay down this team, then yay in your team.
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I'm here but I think VE is scum so I don't really like that one either. A team suggested by rad, truth or zona would be fine for me. VE only if I have to because we only got 10 mins left. Just like with palmar
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I will be here, refreshing, in hopes that three town players check back in time to join me and VE in saving this game.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
OK SO WAIT Toad you think Palmar is scum? who do you think is scum.
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and yeah I'm pretty sure BH is town right now given how much he tries to get a team going. So I'd much rather have a team with BH right now than a team with rad/palmar.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
OK can we get a third nayvote on Palmar's team then? Then we'll just need 2 more to make VE in charge. Granted, VE maybe scum, but I'm 100% sure a team with both rad and palmar will fail.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Like, if you think i'm town, then that means that the current team proposed by palmar, which includes both himself and radfield, MUST include a scum player.
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Yeah I think palmar is scum just the way I think VE is scum right now and I'd like to not have to decide which one is getting m vote. So I'm leaving yay on palmar for the case that we don't get enough people in here. I think he's scum but that's not a 100% read. Not having a team at all is a 100% lose. So if you get 2 more people in here I will switch to nay instantly but I'm probably going to nay VE as well and will try to get a better leader. Suspicious right now is Palmar, Rad, Truth, VE imo. So a Zona team would be nice if we make it that far or I'll have to try our luck and just pick one out of those 4.
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Here's my theory - it's convoluted and WIFOMy, but it's what I got.
Rad posts a team theory that's generally disliked by the active majority.
Blaze makes a post saying why he doesn't like it and raises the possibility of scum communicating that one will 'not sabotage'
Palmar, knowing the present leader is scum, makes a post that simultaneously implicates Blaze and instructs Rad surreptitiously to not sabotage. (Anyone [Blaze] who is discussing scum strategy is scum [...and will sabotage the mission *winkwink*...so don't do it *winkwink*])
Rad then actually posts his team of Radfield Palmar and Blaze, having picked up the hidden meaning of Palmar's message.
Now, where were Palmar and Rad during the "morning" of D2? You remember, when I was going ape-shit about scumBlaze and he was going ape-shit about scumVE...where were our 'totally townie teamsters' then? They came in later, after the dust had settled and the lines had been drawn.
Palmar was on the second mission, which would account for its failure...but I highly doubt anyone else on the N2 mission is scum because honestly (no offense) none of them are really good enough to pick up a message like the one D1 that Rad picked up. It's possible I guess, but not likely in my opinion.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
As long as you keep on refreshing the thread, and you nayvote Palmar when the time comes, that works for me.
But you have to understand, I cannot vote yay on a Palm/Rad team. You're voting yay on a team that includes half of your scumlist. I can only hope that a couple more people show up, and we salvage this game.
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Which means that I don't really think Toad is scum...I was just barbing him into activity.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
VE your theory is what i've been trying to convince people of for like 10 pages.
That being said, Toad seems unwilling to unyayvote Palmar, even though he thinks i'm town and the team includes Rad/Palm.
At this point we just need to wait for more poeple to show up
F5F5F5
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Toad do you understand that Radfield and Palmar actually care about winning? You get that right? And the fact that they're not here to try and convince us that they're town means LITERALLY that they're scum.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
It's true, i mean if Rad and Palm want their team to win they'd be like "uh guys cmon vote for our team"-- there's a possibility they're both away from their computers though
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On January 05 2012 06:19 Blazinghand wrote: VE your theory is what i've been trying to convince people of for like 10 pages.
That being said, Toad seems unwilling to unyayvote Palmar, even though he thinks i'm town and the team includes Rad/Palm.
At this point we just need to wait for more poeple to show up
F5F5F5
I'm not unwilling to unvote. I am unwilling to give away a 10% chance to win this (if I'm actually wrong with my read) as long as the alternative is a 0% chance to win because we got noone else in here. As I said, as soon at people get in here I'll nayvote asap.
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It's possible, but not likely with a deadline like this. I mean, Palmar has been known to miss the occasional 11p EST deadline (hello epic video XLVIII)...but this deadline is MUCH more forgiving for ALL timezones. I don't see them not being around for this kind of a deadline.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
To be fair, even if you stay on the yayvote, that team has only your yayvote, so when time runs out we're gonna lose anyways.
All of this is just theoretical because at the moment it's just the three of us.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Well it's also wroth noting that like, Radfield hasn't even yayvoted this team.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
MAN CMON GUYS CHECK THE THREAD PLEASE WE NEED YOU
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How much time is left in this deadline? i just got done with my jan term class
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It really only needs bumped at this point Blaze, continually posting isn't doing anything but spamming the thread. If you have something more to add please do so by all means..but if you're just posting to post, the thread doesn't need that.
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Hour and half I think Grey.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Greymist we have 1 hour, 20 minutes left. Please nayvote Palmar's team and we need one more person and you me VE and toad and this one more person can yayvote a new team into existence.
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How many of us are here? just me you and blazing and maybe toad right?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Toad is in and out but he isn't feeling great about the nayvoting. If you're not able to stick around, but you trust VE, you can just nayvote Palmar and yayvote VE and hope for the best.
Regardless, we need one more person.
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already done, I dont like radfield and palmar both on a team at this point.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
VE's proposed team (Assuming we get another voter in to nayvote Palmar and Toad switches like he promised, or we get 2 voters in to nayvote palmar without toad's help):
VisceraEyes, Greymist, Blazinghand, Zona
thoughts?
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Toad would you be so kind as to reiterate your suspicion of me so I can respond to it and possibly convince you otherwise please?
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Greymist gave me a townread early on and that did not change at all I know I am town.
You gave me a townread d1 but d2 and d3 it was just nothing due to skyrim according to you Palmars posts still give me townread but was on 2 failed missions.
=> either you or palmar imo. Palmar looks a litte more town but I'm pretty sure he's capable to look protown in a setup with so little talk...
Imo we can't afford to send a team with either you or palmar right now but that'd be luxury right now and I will probably have to settle with one of you two.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I could understand sending a Palmar team, Toad, but are you really okay with a "Radfield + Palmar" team? Even with what is ostensibly a "Blazinghand is town" read?
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I implore you to settle with me - I've explained my absence, and I'm here now trying to win with town. You're right about Palmar - he knows how to look pro-town. Can you say the same for me? You were on my scum team in XLVIII - you commented several times on how scummy my posts were. Are you seeing similarities OTHER than my absence? By that reasoning, do you think it's likely that I'm telling the truth about my absence?
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no I'm not ok with sending rad+palmar but I'm not ok with voting nay as long as people are missing to get something going as well
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I mean i guess the big thing is that there's no way a team with Radfield AND Palmar can suceed if you think I'm town so I don't think you should yay-vote it. Just saying.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Wait why are you not ok with voting nay? If people are missing it's not like a yay-vote is meaningful, and at least if you vote nay maybe someone will show up and we'll have ever-so-slightly more time to assemble and yay-vote in VE's team.
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Toad what you're saying doesn't make sense - first of all, there aren't enough people to YAY a team either, with or without you. Blaze and I are absolutely NOT voting a team with Rad and Palmar on it....so you're doing just as much to hinder town victory parking your vote. Conversely, anyone who comes into the thread might get a skewed view of what the general consensus want if your vote is artificially bloating the 'yay's for Palmar's team.
PLEASE Nay-vote Palmar's team and Yay mine. I'm literally BEGGING you Toad.
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because we're needing one additional vote in both scenarios: If i switch now we still need one more. If I don't we only need one more to yay + those guys who are arround right now
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
So Toad, here's what you're saying; you think VE is scum, so you don't want to vote Nay, so you want to get together the vote from Greymist, Myself, and the next person who comes by... but you KNOW I will never vote Yay on the Palm+Rad team. You know that. If i'm town there's scum on that team.
And if VE is scum he certainly won't either, he'll stop the vote from going through... so if you are right about VE, we'll need an EXTRA person to pass a Palm/Rad team since I refuse to vote for a team I know will lose. And if you're wrong about VE, why are you voting yay on Palm/rad team?
Vote nay. Do it.
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Toad, the hand commands you! DO NOT IGNORE THE FLAMES!!!
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Of course, I think the real story here is that Toad is the third mafia player. We're probably gonna need 2 more players, not 1 more ._.
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That doesn't make sense...he and Palmar were on N2 mission. Do you think it's possible that one of them wouldn't have sabotaged?
Unless Palmar just did it knowing Toad would sabotage....
There's merit to this.
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if I'm right about VE he can just unvote afterwards and we're in even bigger troubles because that's just like the no-lynch we produced last game. I'm going to unvote the moment we get 5 people in here
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well actually what I said is wrong, kind of. Both scenarios are instant lose if VE is scum
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Wait Toad why not unvote now? Is there ANY ADVANTAGE to not unvoting?
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Toad you're not right about VE. You still haven't answered why you think I'm scum or responded to my defense at all.
Please, it's important for you to believe that I'm town at this point Toad. Think about this. Would I give a shit about convincing you if I were scum? Would I not just let town fumble into a no-lynch as scum?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Yeah I mean VE kinda has a point, just the fact that he's here and voting rather than say, rofling and sitting back in his easy chair means he's trying to get something done. In 45 minutes, TOWN LOSES IF WE DONT DO SOMETHING. We need to do something.
f5 f5 f5 I hope someone new shows up
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I went ahead and premtivly voted for VE's team, I have to go somewhere and get somethings done. GL
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
alright, thanks Greymist. I hope we find another dude
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Thanks Grey. Hope it's not in vain.
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What I'm upset about is not that scum won this, but that town inactivity lost this. Truly unfortunate.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Yeah as I've mentioned this is probably the lamest of all possible losses. I hope a couple people show up... NOW
f5 f5 f5
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I mean, honestly, the scum play this game has been SOOOOO bad in hindsight, it's really pretty pathetic.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
To be fair I should have defended myself better following N1. I think everyone thinking I was scum was tripping people up, because then there's a misleading explanation for the N1 failure. Generally the goal as a town player should be to prove your own innocence first.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
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Nah, the goal as a town player is 100% of the time to try to find scum. You prove your innocence by fulfilling that goal.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
So radfield stopped by to vote yay on the palmar team. Now he's gonna come over and tell everyone I'm scum, then go laugh and wait half an hour.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Or maybe he's not even gonna stop by the thread. I don't even know why he dropped in the yay-vote, short of some people showing up and getting their stuff in line very quickly we are basically bonerized ;_;
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To bloat the yay-votes, which I warned Toad of. Pretty standard procedure.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Man the level of lameness that I'm experiencing right now is peerless.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Just trying to catch up gang. I thought the deadline was tomorrow. Are we too late?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Radfield we have 25 minutes left.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
So I mean in the off chance that Radfield is town, this is actually better. Rad and Toad you guys should vote Nay on Palmar's team.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Time is fairly important here Radfield, Toad what say you
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so how are the chances to nay VE as well and get to another leader now that we're 5 people? :p As mentioned I don't really like VE's team as well and I'd like to get something else
You're telling me I can't yay on palmar because it got 2 people I am suspicious of (palmar and rad) and at the same time you got an alternative that got 2 people that I'm suspicious of as well. I literally told you 4 people I'm suspicious of and both teams got 2 of those suggested... don't like that...
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Toad you're not even listening and so I'm not even responding to you anymore. At this point, I hope we lose and you're town so it can be your fault exclusively.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Toad you don't understand just pay attention
Look Me, Rad and Palm were on the Day 1 team right?
AND THAT TEAM FAILED
If you think i'm town
THEN YOU THINK PALMAR'S CURRENT TEAM WILL FAIL.
These are the same statements: "Blazinghand is town" and "One of Palm/Rad is scum"
If you think i'm town, nayvote that team NOW.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
So rad and toad I think are just trying to distract us. Currently we have GM, VE, and Myself in our camp. We need two more people and we can still make this happen in the remaining time. ITS NOT OVER YET
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
No, I still think you are scum blazing.
I also think Palmar is town, VE is town, and truth is town. I'm honestly baffled how people can see blazinghand as town right now.
You guys realize his proposal for a day 3 team was Himself, Greymist, VE and Toad. This was at a time when he was 'sure' I was scum, and was only maybe on Palmar. Yet he was taking the entire Day 2 team for Day 3?
It is possible that Palmar is scum. I fully admit that, but I'm willing to be fooled at this point because he's played an extremely solid game if scum, and all his posts seem townish to me. Not to mention Blazing is super scummy. Those two things add up to going with Palmar.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Man what a lame way to lose. I actually hope Toad is scum because if Toad is town, well, I'm severely disappoint.
Even if Toad does join our camp, we'll need an additional person.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
LOOK HOW MUCH RESISTANCE PALMARS TEAM IS GETTING!?
3 Yay votes, yet scum have not hammered?? Open your eyes guys.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
RAdfield your Rad/Palmar team will not pass. This is a gauranteed loss if you don't change your vote. If you're not gonna change your vote then we lose, simple as that.
We need Rad and Toad, or one of Rad and Toad and a new person, or two new people, and we can save this game.
If you guys are town, come and save this game. Take us from a 0% success rate to a chance of winning.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
SCUM HAS ALREADY HAMMERED, SCUM IS RAD/PALM/TOAD
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
or, scum is just sitting in easy chairs and roffling, and instead of hammering is gonna wait 15 minutes.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Rad, Palmar's team WILL NOT PASS. There's still time to yay-vote VE's team. BEtter a small chance than zero chance.
join us
VE: you'll have to repropose your team as soon as you become leader, I think. Be ready in case it happens in the last few minutes.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
yeah, that makes sense blazing.... ?
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Yeah Rad, there's no point in scum acting at this point - a no lynch is a loss.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Rad, your vote right now is wasted. dont' waste it. Vote nay on palmar and yay on VE, so at least we have a non-0 chance of winning.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
VE, why do you think blazing is town?
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Nah I won't...it says I can do it in advance.
Notice how the proposals always read 'None' in the thread announcements? It's because no one has pre-proposed a team.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
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Rad: Because I think you and Palmar are scum.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Ah okay well be ready to repropose in cas esomething is weird as soon as you become capatian
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
The only reason i'm spending time on Rad is it's POSSIBLE, although incredibly unlikely, that he's town, and so is Toad. SOMEHOW. and if that's the case, and we CAN get together people for a team, then by jove i'll take any chance we can get
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
are you willing to at least vote yay on this team for a chance of succeeding? Instead of an auto-loss?
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Rad: Why? What's sad about that?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Radfield look even if you're 99% sure i'm scum better a 1% chance to win than 0% chance to win right? EVERYONE SHOULD SEE THIS. join us
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It's an auto-loss anyway. Palmar is most assuredly scum, even if you're not.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Although I suppose you could say the same thing to me....
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Rad, Toad, join us and save this game if you're town. Do it-- create a chance to win this game
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 07:49 VisceraEyes wrote: It's an auto-loss anyway. Palmar is most assuredly scum, even if you're not.
Again... why not blzing?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Radfield, Palm is a tricky guy and you know it
bulletin to people who don't have time to read this: vote yay on VE and nay on palmar, do it now, or we lose in 10 minutes
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
TRUTHBRINGER WHAT ARE YOU DOING YOU'RE GONNA MAKE US LOSE
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
He is indeed blazing. Your play has been headshakingly bad if you are town though.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Guys, guys guys do you really really think after all this that Palm and Rad are both town? WHY WOULD YOU THINK THAT
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Don't taunt me Rad, you've already won.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Radfield, It's my 2nd game of mafia ever give me a break. The fact that I can't convince you means you're either A) scum or B) bad
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Radfield, Truthbringe,r we can STILL SAVE THIS GAME. COME OVER
vote yay on VE. vote nay on Palmar
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 07:51 Blazinghand wrote: Radfield, It's my 2nd game of mafia ever give me a break. The fact that I can't convince you means you're either A) scum or B) bad
Weren't you popping around obs QT's? I seem to recall you making sense there.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 05 2012 07:52 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 07:51 Blazinghand wrote: Radfield, It's my 2nd game of mafia ever give me a break. The fact that I can't convince you means you're either A) scum or B) bad Weren't you popping around obs QT's? I seem to recall you making sense there.
Yah, i make sense so hurry up and unvote palmar, nayvote him, and vote VE already
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
The worst part about this blazing is you are actually starting to reverse my read. Making me very sad and confused...
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I'm wiling to believe that Rad, but the present team includes Palmar...who I CAN NOT trust at this point.
Blaze: There's a third option you're not taking into account: That rad is neither scum nor bad and that you're town. That possibility is just as likely in my opinion.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Look RAdfield cmon man i've spent like the past 6 hours trying to avert this auto-lose. Join us and save this game
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Man i hate these scrambles.
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I'm troubled by Zona's absence too...which means my team is no good too.
GG scum.
If it's not Rad/Palmar/Toad it's probably Palmar/Zona/Toad.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I gotta say Rad you are a pretty brilliant Mafia player but at this point either way you have to keep on talking up until they end, don't you?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
VE STOP GIVING UP JUST LIKE MAKE A NEW TEAM OR SOMETHING
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Because he was on 2 teams that failed. Not taking into account his blatant buddying of me, not taking into account his inactivity, not taking into account his stifling of town discussion, HE WAS ON TWO TEAMS THAT FAILED.
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Can't make a new team once one is proposed. It's in the rulez.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 07:54 Blazinghand wrote: Look RAdfield cmon man i've spent like the past 6 hours trying to avert this auto-lose. Join us and save this game
In all fairness, from your perspective(as scum) this is an auto-loss team for scum if we get it through. 4 players get confirmed town, and all we need to do is find 1 more. With the whole scum team basically exposed.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
ok GUYS i'm gonna put this reasonably: let's not lose this game due to auto-loss, at least. AT LEAST THAT, GIVE ME THAT
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Radfield, Change your vote and let us have at least a CHANCE of winning. A CHANCE
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 07:55 VisceraEyes wrote: Because he was on 2 teams that failed. Not taking into account his blatant buddying of me, not taking into account his inactivity, not taking into account his stifling of town discussion, HE WAS ON TWO TEAMS THAT FAILED.
So you think that all those other 5 players are town? You think that more likely? It is wayyy more likely that there were two seperate 1 mafia teams
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Also Radfield alone isn't enough, that's the worst thign here, we nee da vote from Truthbringer or Toad
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
VE, JUST FUCKING VOTE THROUGH THIS TEAM!
SCREW YOUR READS AND GIVE US A CHANCE!
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
bulletin to anyone who just tuned in: unvote Palm's team and vote for VE's team, you have 2 minutes remaining before autoloss do it now
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
VE DON'T DO IT HE'S TRYING TO MAKE US LOSE
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 07:57 Blazinghand wrote: bulletin to anyone who just tuned in: unvote Palm's team and vote for VE's team, you have 2 minutes remaining before autoloss do it now
it's not gonna happen dude. VE, please vote yay on Palmar.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
radfield please swap over truthbringer toad cmon guys
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 07:58 Blazinghand wrote: VE DON'T DO IT HE'S TRYING TO MAKE US LOSE
I am trying to make you lose hopefully. We will soon see.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
VE you know i'm town, you KNOW IT. Maybe radfield is innocent but you KNOW PALMAR IS SCUM.
don't throw htis away
radfield join us
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No, like I said before, I think it's most likely that you're both scum and that you got his message about not sabotaging N1. Care to explain why the whole of D2, all you did was defend yourself against then obvScumBlaze? If he was obvScum (and the consensus is that he was) why wasn't more of your time spent looking for his buddies? Why didn't you follow up on any of your prods of other players? You realize that I didn't answer a SINGLE one of your prods during this game right Rad? Not a single one. Yet I'm pretty obvTown to you. Why? Why am I town?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Even if I wanted to I can't do it on my own. There is only one way to possible victory here.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Radfield you are either a fool or a knave that is all
I should have defended myself better
I did what I could
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
JUST DO IT VE, we lose without a fight otherwise
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Radfield is still arguing because he knows he has to to look town
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
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Rad I'm not doing it. Period.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Palmar may be scum VE, but you voting the team in would have given us a chance. Braindead move.
lol indeed syllo
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Meh. I blame inactivity, and I take full responsibility for my part of it.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Radfield you could have swapped over and convinced Toad or Truth the fact of the matter is a Rad/Palm team has 0 chance of winning and at least an attempt to try to get a VE team going would have been an honorable death
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:01 VisceraEyes wrote: Rad I'm not doing it. Period.
You realize you make absolutely no sense, even if you are 100% right in your read on Palmar.
1 option gives you a for sure loss
1 option gives you a loss if your read is correct.
Gee whiz, I wonder which option makes more sense......
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Is this officially over? I want to talk
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I suppose well played Palmar. I was putting my eggs in your basket.
Blazing, I don't even know what to say if you are town....
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:02 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: dat ending
of the about 30 pages of play, 12 of them were in the last day
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Why was Palmar only one vote away from acceptance?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:03 syllogism wrote: Is this officially over? I want to talk
I'm not sure, I am only going on the deadline these guys told me. Best to keep your mouth shut until its official.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Radfield man I was town. I was town and you buried me because you couldn't understand a guy makeing a day 1 read
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On January 01 2012 10:12 Forumite wrote:- Day 3 -Mission Failure! Something was wrong. It took a trained eye and a suspicious mind to notice, but the signs were unmistakeable. The normally docile guards at the checkpoint were alert and inquisitive. There were more cars than usual on the roads, both transporting troops, and civilian informers. It was obvious that they had been sold out from the start. Anyone else would have given up allready, but they were desperate. Given the circumstances they were lucky to get out alive.Mission 2 suffered one sabotage attempt, and failed!
Happy New Year! Mission 3 require 4 participants!
Toadestern is the first leader.
The day ends in just under 4 days, at 23:00 GMT (+00:00), or 08:00 KST the 5th of January, 2011.
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oh fuck guys, nicely played Blazinghand.
What the shit, why not get the team in?
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On January 01 2012 10:12 Forumite wrote: [...] The day ends in just under 4 days, at 23:00 GMT (+00:00), or 08:00 KST the 5th of January, 2011.
according to that post the game is over
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My fault Palmar. Kind of you to join us too late bro.
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Lol, it doesn´t matter how long the day is, it can be chaos the 10 last minutes anyway.
By my count we didn´t reach either 5 nays or 5 yays on Palmars team, so the mission ended in a failure. Is that what you read too?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Yeah the game is done, we lose ;_;
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
That's what I read too, Forumite ;_;
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I was also town Blazing, and you play made no sense.
A) Make a read based of very very little
B) Do not push that read at all until the results come back
C) Talk about how great your read was and how sure you were. Yet you did absolutely nothing Day 1 to stop the train from rolling
D) Consistantly change your reasoning for seeing me as scum
E) Propose a team made up of entirely Day 2 members, except for one guy who you don't really even have a solid scum read on...
I could go on...
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Radfield: you should have realized palmar is scum but you rather just tunnelled someone who was putting 10x more effort into the game than palmar was. Palmar obviously wasn't caring about the game and was on 2 failed missions. VE's team was all town.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
My play made perfect sense
I did what I could to stop the day 1 train from rolling, I told people to think. I became more sure of it, and in hindsight I should have pushed harder.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Like, how the hell was Palmar acceptable to ANYONE after he was on 2 failed teams???????
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On January 05 2012 08:07 Blazinghand wrote: Like, how the hell was Palmar acceptable to ANYONE after he was on 2 failed teams???????
Cause I'm both cute, and trustworthy.
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On January 05 2012 08:07 Blazinghand wrote: Like, how the hell was Palmar acceptable to ANYONE after he was on 2 failed teams???????
that's what I said all the time lol
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
So was it like Zona Palmar Toad or what
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:06 syllogism wrote: Radfield: you should have realized palmar is scum but you rather just tunnelled someone who was putting 10x more effort into the game than palmar was. Palmar obviously wasn't caring about the game and was on 2 failed missions. VE's team was all town.
I was blinded by the scumminess of Blazing. I have also been consistantly fooled my last two games by players who put in 'effort' yet make no sense(and turn out to be scum). Notice I put Blazinghand on my team Day 1 because he was 'putting in effort'. Then he went loopy on me and I had to assume he was scum. Palmar played it nice and safe and I bought it.
Zona's whole thing threw me for a loop too. Where did you possibly come up with that Zona? It honestly made zero sense.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
man toad you know you should have nay voted, then RAD would have nay voted
you were like "i'll nay vote when more peopel are back" and then you DIDN'T. why didn't you
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Oh, unless you were scum zona. Then that makes sense.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
See now my Radfield Palmar Zona thoery makes more sense! I was like mostly right most of the time this game
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Toad man WHY DIDN'T YOU SWITCH. Your not switching meant Rad didn't switch cause it wouldn't make a difference. We could have not autolost right ther eyou know......... GDSAFJKDASLFJDSAKLFSDAfsa
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:09 Blazinghand wrote: man toad you know you should have nay voted, then RAD would have nay voted
you were like "i'll nay vote when more peopel are back" and then you DIDN'T. why didn't you
That is maybe true. If we had enough on VE's team for 1 more person I would have probably switched. But without that it made more sense for me to stick and hope VE switched at the last minute(which he should have done regardless of his read)
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On January 05 2012 08:10 Blazinghand wrote: See now my Radfield Palmar Zona thoery makes more sense! I was like mostly right most of the time this game
lol
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Obviously toad+truth are mafia given that they were around (and toad promised to switch!) but not caring. You should probably realize that scum wouldn't spend the last few hours here trying to get people to switch when they are already up by 2-0 and the thread is dead.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Yeah I mean from VE's perspective a last minute switch is what he should have done. The fact of the matter is, though, Palmar was scum and Toad really needed to switch earlier but despite me and VE constantly berating him he didn't. I'm p. mad abou tthat
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Ahh toad as a mafia player? so then Toad/Palm on d2, one of them didn't sabo, i get it
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I mean i was kinda suspicious of toad, but I dunno. I want a final post already
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of course I am mafia. I even softclaimed mafia d2 to make my allies look good because they apparently thought they need to bus me.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Realize this though Palmar. I am one step closer to figuring you out now All sorts of things about your play niggled me this game, but I never pressed them(big mistake) because I thought blazing was scum(small mistake).
Next time
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
who sabotaged the n2? how'd you work it out, or was it just "Palmar keeps at it"?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
also who was 3rd mafia? Zona???
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Palmar sabotaged again while the new addition didn't (toad), which is the obvious play and worked out
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
oh syllo, you just sound so smart sitting up there
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On January 05 2012 08:12 Radfield wrote:Realize this though Palmar. I am one step closer to figuring you out now All sorts of things about your play niggled me this game, but I never pressed them(big mistake) because I thought blazing was scum(small mistake). Next time
I'm the most obvious scum player on TL dude.
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I tried to breadcrum bullshit and wasn't sure if palmar got it. So either palmar got that and knew i was not going to sabotage or he was just going to sabotage anyways.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Makes sense. So toad not swapping was smart move. Dude Radfield you know I can't adequately out argue you, but i did manage to convince greymist and/or VE or someone that i was innocent. Don't let the fact that i'm accusing you not let you see that i'm clean
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well, aside from syllo of course, who is just as blatantly obvious.
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Yes it's easy isn't it! But that's how I would have handled sabotaging and I have proof!
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But anyway shouldn't assume that there was only one on a mission because only one sabotaged. Even if they had both ended up not sabotaging on day 2, they would have been in a good position
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Congrats to Visceraleyes for being the only person in the game suggesting an all town team
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Toad is very obvious scum it seems to me, check out how he accuses people when he is town, and how he does it as scum. Also note how much more trusting he is of people when he is scum. I almost pm'ed him with "why so mafia?" but didn't want to interfere with an ongoing game like that :-P
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so palmar did you get my drift or did you just do what syllo said? :p my post:
On December 31 2011 11:50 Toadesstern wrote: EBWOP: Oh team accepted. Sry that means I won't answer everything now and leave it for tomorrow. Just to make this clear because I just said I will respond to everything and now I'm not which would look strange without reasoning.
I just tried to get as much negation with something to make it clear in my post while making it look like I did not realize it was already night :p
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I was fairly sure Toad was mafia during the "final scramble" because he didn't unyayvote the Palmar team, despite obvious reasons. VE knew this as well, I think.
I'm honeslty surprised that it wasn't "everyone shows up for the final scramble"...
The fact that people didn't vote in an election that ended in an autoloss is disheartening, to say the least.
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I knew Palmar was scum the moment he dared me to start suspecting him.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
So who was the third scum? I MUST KNOW
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On January 05 2012 08:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Toad is very obvious scum it seems to me, check out how he accuses people when he is town, and how he does it as scum. Also note how much more trusting he is of people when he is scum. I almost pm'ed him with "why so mafia?" but didn't want to interfere with an ongoing game like that :-P
yeah I actually realized that as well. Last game a mafia I did even more and not no scumhunting at all. So I improved a little and again I did bullshit on d2 because I thought it's a good move to get my team in a good position after they decided to bus me so I tried to do some OMGUS shit that people have to call me out on it.
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Simultaneously, I knew that if I pushed him right then he would attempt to discredit me.
Fuck, I even tried to goad Palmar into posting with all the "Really, the scum play this game has been terrible"
GG guys.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:14 Blazinghand wrote: Makes sense. So toad not swapping was smart move. Dude Radfield you know I can't adequately out argue you, but i did manage to convince greymist and/or VE or someone that i was innocent. Don't let the fact that i'm accusing you not let you see that i'm clean
The problem was I couldn't see how your suspicion of me was legit. You ended up with 4 or 5 reasons I was scum this game, yet all of them only really took a sentence or a quote to show they were incorrect. Yet you stuck with it, talked about how you were 'sure' I was 'obvious' scum, when there simply existed no evidence that could possibly corroborate that. The fact that you ignored Palmar in all that(particularly day 2 and early day 3) made me almost certain you were scum. That gave Palmar a free pass for me.
I will say this though. Several things you did this game gave me pause(in my suspicion), but not enough for me to go anywhere near clearing you. My fault entirely. Next time I will get it right
On January 05 2012 08:14 syllogism wrote: Yes it's easy isn't it! But that's how I would have handled sabotaging and I have proof!
I need no proof. I honestly didn't doubt your skills for a second!
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On January 05 2012 08:17 Toadesstern wrote:so palmar did you get my drift or did you just do what syllo said? :p my post: Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 11:50 Toadesstern wrote: EBWOP: Oh team accepted. Sry that means I won't answer everything now and leave it for tomorrow. Just to make this clear because I just said I will respond to everything and now I'm not which would look strange without reasoning. I just tried to get as much negation with something to make it clear in my post while making it look like I did not realize it was already night :p
Dude, I don't even read the thread when I'm scum, so no.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Oh you're right it makes sense-- Truthbringer would have swapped over
So wait if Zona wasn't scum, what was with that "Rad and Blaze are in it together" accusation? I thought for sure Zona was scum.
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On January 05 2012 08:21 Blazinghand wrote: Oh you're right it makes sense-- Truthbringer would have swapped over
So wait if Zona wasn't scum, what was with that "Rad and Blaze are in it together" accusation? I thought for sure Zona was scum.
Just good ol' fashioned townie paranoia, that.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
OK so Rad was one of those things hte fact that I kept on correcting people's bad math because I thought that was pretty good.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Well, to look on the bright side it's about time for me to roll scum again, and now I have my activity levels in Election Mafia and my poor reads in Resistance to fall back on as excuses.
Excellent!
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I CAN'T BELIEVE WE LOST DUE TO INACTIVITY.
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*oldmanfist* RADFIELD!!!!!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:22 Blazinghand wrote: OK so Rad was one of those things hte fact that I kept on correcting people's bad math because I thought that was pretty good.
Pretty good as a townie trait?
Mafia looove to contribute things like that. It gives them something to do without actually commenting on whats going on or who is scum.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:23 VisceraEyes wrote: *oldmanfist* RADFIELD!!!!!
On the bright side it was out of my hands. Even if I had switched we would have lost.
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The different setup did make it a bit harder as scum can for instance quite freely bus their team mates and it's easier to make someone look like a spy than mafia
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Man but i was fixing stuff! FIXING IT. I averted a potentially disastrous "4 man team who isn't anyone from D1 or D2" strategy
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Okay, let´s wrap this up. prplhz will be along with the endflavor later, just opening the discussion about the game.
Game Over - Spy Victory
- Mission 3 Failed -
Spyteam was Palmar, TruthBringer and Toadesstern.
Thanks so much for playing! I hope you like this setup, and that we´ll see more Resistance games on TL in the future. Big thanks to prplhz for writing and running the bot that made my job so much easier
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Oh I guess I can legit ask this now: Why DID you bring me along D1 Rad?
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On January 05 2012 08:23 Blazinghand wrote: I CAN'T BELIEVE WE LOST DUE TO INACTIVITY. I was pretty active :p
On January 05 2012 08:23 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:22 Blazinghand wrote: OK so Rad was one of those things hte fact that I kept on correcting people's bad math because I thought that was pretty good. Pretty good as a townie trait? Mafia looove to contribute things like that. It gives them something to do without actually commenting on whats going on or who is scum.
yeah I don't know about that. I don't think townies should do that math stuff to begin with. However I don't see a problem in correcting someone when he's wrong about math. Remember that post from Greymist when he said something along the lines "yeah should be about 50% chances" and I explained that it's something like 7% in reality? I think I'd do that as townie as well.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:24 Blazinghand wrote: Man but i was fixing stuff! FIXING IT. I averted a potentially disastrous "4 man team who isn't anyone from D1 or D2" strategy
nah, as mafia you have to assume that someone will catch the bad math. And if someone is going to do it it might as well be you(to catch the cred).
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Because you sounded town Blaze, he said that already. Your participation in the thread made you sound very town indeed. It's why I yay'd the team.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Break time for me. Too many mafia games in a row fries my abilities. I have been getting steadily worse for months....
GG all.
Thanks a bunch to Forumite and prplhz, I thoroughly enjoyed this despite the three and out. Would definitely play this again.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I guess I just assumed everyone thought I was scum after the "mentioned a spy strat" thing.
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Also scum can just pretend to be looking for townies in this setup, always include themselves and be okay. It's pretty easy to even paint own team mates as town. No scum hunting required, at least if town allows that
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That's so wrong. Like, consider the source brah. Remember who said that in the first place?
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On January 05 2012 08:28 syllogism wrote: Also scum can just pretend to be looking for townies in this setup, always include themselves and be okay. It's pretty easy to even paint own team mates as town. No scum hunting required, at least if town allows that
that's what i tried d1 before my mates decided to bus me
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On January 05 2012 08:28 syllogism wrote: Also scum can just pretend to be looking for townies in this setup, always include themselves and be okay. It's pretty easy to even paint own team mates as town. No scum hunting required, at least if town allows that
Yeah I was praying to roll scum this game. With no worries about dying, scum have a free hand to do about anything. Like, scum are actually encouraged BY WAY OF SETUP to contribute freely.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Man even if all the townies voted together in the final election, we didn't have 5 townies. We had VE, GreyMist, myself, and Radfield, and two townies didn't vote: Zona and Jackal.
With 4 town players you can't get a majority of 5.
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On January 05 2012 08:27 Radfield wrote:Break time for me. Too many mafia games in a row fries my abilities. I have been getting steadily worse for months.... GG all. Thanks a bunch to Forumite and prplhz, I thoroughly enjoyed this despite the three and out. Would definitely play this again. No one had a clue as to who the scum were in this game, shouldn't take it too hard, especially when you don't quite have the time required.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I guess one thing with resistance-style games is that elections come and go quickly since new ones can start when 5 nays come up, so you have to preemptively vote based on your reads or check back a lot, or else something like this can happen.
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And with the preemptive voting thing you can coordinate things like "Hey guys, just nay vote until you get to me, look at all these townies I put on my team"
I wish I had been more active in this game.
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When people were arguing about math I just closed the thread and went "whatever".
Radfield's team on day 1 made perfect sense, Blazinghand was being very active, and Radfield and I are both quite easy to figure out. Blazinghand made some "mistakes" that allowed us to push the idea he was the scum in that team.
I wasn't bussing you Toad, I just decided to line myself up opposite you, to try and guarantee victory. Town almost managed to work around it though, mostly thanks to VisceraEyes. But no one actually stepped up to lead town and get things moving so you guys spent too much time mudslinging each other randomly.
I can't claim scum played too well, I think we did okay, but really, my opinion is that the loss is mostly to be blamed on people being unfamiliar with the setup and no one really stepping back to look over what happened in the game. I think the setup is not unbalanced, remember, all it takes is one successful mission and town has 4 very likely town candidates, and scum has to metagame it hard. For example, if tonight's mission would've been a success, town would have instawon if they figured out one more townie for the night 5 mission.
I would play this setup again, I find the no dying mechanic kinda fun!
thanks for hosting mr. hosties.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I'm actually comfortable with my level of activity. I wish I had argued better against Radfield. I think I was suspicious of why he picked me, then the delayed explanation, then the non-self-vote then he and jackal hammered it home... then the mission failed and I was like "man clearly Radfield has some long convoluted plan to make me the fall guy" and things only went downhill from there. Like, everything I did makes sense if you think that Radfield had no reasonable reason to chose me for his team D1.
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I don't think you should preemptively vote based on your reads. You guys just surrendered the moment you decided it's a good idea to need 2 or 3 days to get a single leader nayvoted to get the next one. I was the guy pointing out the deadline was at 8:00KST because I thought noone's here. If someone would have thought this trough 24hours earlier you'd still have a chance.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
I was always very aggressive with my votes. That being said, I actually think we would have STILL been fine, even with this crunch time, if jackal and Zona checked in before the game end deadline.
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On January 05 2012 08:35 Blazinghand wrote: I'm actually comfortable with my level of activity. I wish I had argued better against Radfield. I think I was suspicious of why he picked me, then the delayed explanation, then the non-self-vote then he and jackal hammered it home... then the mission failed and I was like "man clearly Radfield has some long convoluted plan to make me the fall guy" and things only went downhill from there. Like, everything I did makes sense if you think that Radfield had no reasonable reason to chose me for his team D1.
That's crazy though, he picked you, knowing your own alignment, should just roll with it. Remember, Radfield was town, so his idea of picking you cannot possibly be scummy. I'd probably have done something similar in his situation, and it did give town a lot of information, too bad no one actually bothered to extract that information and make it into something useful.
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yeah probably. I got pretty scared the moment I saw VE's town-only team
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On January 05 2012 08:35 Blazinghand wrote: I'm actually comfortable with my level of activity. I wish I had argued better against Radfield. I think I was suspicious of why he picked me, then the delayed explanation, then the non-self-vote then he and jackal hammered it home... then the mission failed and I was like "man clearly Radfield has some long convoluted plan to make me the fall guy" and things only went downhill from there. Like, everything I did makes sense if you think that Radfield had no reasonable reason to chose me for his team D1.
But the thing is you were so tunneled in that when he provided a reason (verily, TWO MINUTES after you commented that he had none), you weren't hearing it. You had already made up your mind.
Take it from the tunnel-master...tunneling is bad to the nth.
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As town you want to pick people who already appear town or are very likely to put enough effort into the game to make themselves look innocent later. Then even if you pick a spy, you can easily figure out who it is. Pretty obvious, but the second point is important
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On January 05 2012 08:40 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:35 Blazinghand wrote: I'm actually comfortable with my level of activity. I wish I had argued better against Radfield. I think I was suspicious of why he picked me, then the delayed explanation, then the non-self-vote then he and jackal hammered it home... then the mission failed and I was like "man clearly Radfield has some long convoluted plan to make me the fall guy" and things only went downhill from there. Like, everything I did makes sense if you think that Radfield had no reasonable reason to chose me for his team D1. But the thing is you were so tunneled in that when he provided a reason (verily, TWO MINUTES after you commented that he had none), you weren't hearing it. You had already made up your mind. Take it from the tunnel-master...tunneling is bad to the nth.
This guy knows it!
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Just wanted to provide an outsider's point of view:
In Resistance, one of the most effective ways to gain information is through the voting process. In fact, once the players become more experienced with the game, it is very common to go through multiple leaders each day.
I was going to post some guides before the game began, but no one seemed interested enough.
Also, the pre-emptive voting mechanic worked against town. You should never be comfortable enough to give up your vote so easily.
Anyway, good game everyone and I hope to be able to get selected for the next one.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:41 kingjames01 wrote: Just wanted to provide an outsider's point of view:
In Resistance, one of the most effective ways to gain information is through the voting process. In fact, once the players become more experienced with the game, it is very common to go through multiple leaders each day.
I was going to post some guides before the game began, but no one seemed interested enough.
I was interested! I even posted links to other forum games of Resistance! D:
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Sadly, I do know it.
Also I'd like to announce that my last scum game on MafiaScum ended in a perfect scum victory, making me completely undefeated as scum on that site. /flex
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mafiascum townies are bad
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Yes, it's pretty weird how little attention was given to voting patterns as this game is all about them. Haven't actually looked at voting so not sure how relevant they would have been in this specific game
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Well that's it for me. 0:40 am and I'm going to get some sleep now. Good game guys, next time you should try to be a little more active. I can see how judging people (like zona or jackal) is hard when there's so little information. I don't think scum did well, not at all, but we were able to do whatever we wanted to do, given that nothing was happening.
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Yeah, I saw that. There weren't any other comments so I thought I wouldn't interfere. It seemed like most players were new and I thought it would be best to just let everyone figure it out. However, if I were in the game and Town, I would definitely have posted! =)
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:41 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:40 VisceraEyes wrote:On January 05 2012 08:35 Blazinghand wrote: I'm actually comfortable with my level of activity. I wish I had argued better against Radfield. I think I was suspicious of why he picked me, then the delayed explanation, then the non-self-vote then he and jackal hammered it home... then the mission failed and I was like "man clearly Radfield has some long convoluted plan to make me the fall guy" and things only went downhill from there. Like, everything I did makes sense if you think that Radfield had no reasonable reason to chose me for his team D1. But the thing is you were so tunneled in that when he provided a reason (verily, TWO MINUTES after you commented that he had none), you weren't hearing it. You had already made up your mind. Take it from the tunnel-master...tunneling is bad to the nth. This guy knows it!
Radfield's accusations of me were all terrible, and the fact that he tunneled me didn't help. I didn't think he had a good reason, and I honestly still don't. It didn't make sense to me that, as a town player, Rad would grab someone who had made a "scumslip" AND be following my pattern BUT not admit it. The fact that he went after me rather than Palmar later on only further convinced me.
Also, I don't know why everyone was obsessed with passing the first team that came by day 1, or that it's scummy not to do so. I saw a team that looked suspicious, so I nayed it.
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Toad, sorry for calling you out. I thought I could make the most plausible case against you.
I was trying to keep Palmar as a townie, so it was easier to paint you as scum than VE or greymist.
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MafiaScum VETS are bad. They instill bad habits in the newbs. If MafiaScum vets had HALF the skill of this site's vets, that site would be a lot more fun to play on.
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On January 05 2012 08:45 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:41 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 08:40 VisceraEyes wrote:On January 05 2012 08:35 Blazinghand wrote: I'm actually comfortable with my level of activity. I wish I had argued better against Radfield. I think I was suspicious of why he picked me, then the delayed explanation, then the non-self-vote then he and jackal hammered it home... then the mission failed and I was like "man clearly Radfield has some long convoluted plan to make me the fall guy" and things only went downhill from there. Like, everything I did makes sense if you think that Radfield had no reasonable reason to chose me for his team D1. But the thing is you were so tunneled in that when he provided a reason (verily, TWO MINUTES after you commented that he had none), you weren't hearing it. You had already made up your mind. Take it from the tunnel-master...tunneling is bad to the nth. This guy knows it! Radfield's accusations of me were all terrible, and the fact that he tunneled me didn't help. I didn't think he had a good reason, and I honestly still don't. It didn't make sense to me that, as a town player, Rad would grab someone who had made a "scumslip" AND be following my pattern BUT not admit it. The fact that he went after me rather than Palmar later on only further convinced me. Also, I don't know why everyone was obsessed with passing the first team that came by day 1, or that it's scummy not to do so. I saw a team that looked suspicious, so I nayed it.
You had no valid reason for calling it suspicious, and it included yourself.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:44 Toadesstern wrote: Well that's it for me. 0:40 am and I'm going to get some sleep now. Good game guys, next time you should try to be a little more active. I can see how judging people (like zona or jackal) is hard when there's so little information. I don't think scum did well, not at all, but we were able to do whatever we wanted to do, given that nothing was happening.
I have 14 pages of filter in a 38 page game
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:46 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:45 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 08:41 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 08:40 VisceraEyes wrote:On January 05 2012 08:35 Blazinghand wrote: I'm actually comfortable with my level of activity. I wish I had argued better against Radfield. I think I was suspicious of why he picked me, then the delayed explanation, then the non-self-vote then he and jackal hammered it home... then the mission failed and I was like "man clearly Radfield has some long convoluted plan to make me the fall guy" and things only went downhill from there. Like, everything I did makes sense if you think that Radfield had no reasonable reason to chose me for his team D1. But the thing is you were so tunneled in that when he provided a reason (verily, TWO MINUTES after you commented that he had none), you weren't hearing it. You had already made up your mind. Take it from the tunnel-master...tunneling is bad to the nth. This guy knows it! Radfield's accusations of me were all terrible, and the fact that he tunneled me didn't help. I didn't think he had a good reason, and I honestly still don't. It didn't make sense to me that, as a town player, Rad would grab someone who had made a "scumslip" AND be following my pattern BUT not admit it. The fact that he went after me rather than Palmar later on only further convinced me. Also, I don't know why everyone was obsessed with passing the first team that came by day 1, or that it's scummy not to do so. I saw a team that looked suspicious, so I nayed it. You had no valid reason for calling it suspicious, and it included yourself.
Dude I totally did! The fact that I was wrong about radfield doesn't mean it wasn't a weird way he went about things. In fact, he was suspicious enough that Zona thought he was scum.
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On January 05 2012 08:47 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:46 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 08:45 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 08:41 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 08:40 VisceraEyes wrote:On January 05 2012 08:35 Blazinghand wrote: I'm actually comfortable with my level of activity. I wish I had argued better against Radfield. I think I was suspicious of why he picked me, then the delayed explanation, then the non-self-vote then he and jackal hammered it home... then the mission failed and I was like "man clearly Radfield has some long convoluted plan to make me the fall guy" and things only went downhill from there. Like, everything I did makes sense if you think that Radfield had no reasonable reason to chose me for his team D1. But the thing is you were so tunneled in that when he provided a reason (verily, TWO MINUTES after you commented that he had none), you weren't hearing it. You had already made up your mind. Take it from the tunnel-master...tunneling is bad to the nth. This guy knows it! Radfield's accusations of me were all terrible, and the fact that he tunneled me didn't help. I didn't think he had a good reason, and I honestly still don't. It didn't make sense to me that, as a town player, Rad would grab someone who had made a "scumslip" AND be following my pattern BUT not admit it. The fact that he went after me rather than Palmar later on only further convinced me. Also, I don't know why everyone was obsessed with passing the first team that came by day 1, or that it's scummy not to do so. I saw a team that looked suspicious, so I nayed it. You had no valid reason for calling it suspicious, and it included yourself. Dude I totally did! The fact that I was wrong about radfield doesn't mean it wasn't a weird way he went about things. In fact, he was suspicious enough that Zona thought he was scum.
ok another post from me: The point is that you did a mistake d1 but that mistake was nothing like a scumslip. It was a mistake like everyone could have done and frankly that's probably even a slight townread unless you know the guy does some mistakes on purpose to look like that because mafia is checking their posts. You looked like a guy putting some effort in this game and at the same time you looked like a new guy who isn't playing perfectly d1. That's a townie most times.
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Blaze your reason for suspecting Rad was ludicrous. It was the determining factor in my suspicion of you. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll start improving your play.
First of all, there's no information in D1. As a townie, you should be PRAYING to be picked for the night team. PRAYING TO WHATEVER GOD YOU BELIEVE IN. Why? Because as you so accurately (and repeatedly) pointed out: there's a 35% chance of picking a scum for the N1 mission. And if the leader picks you, that number goes down DRASTICALLY, right? To something like 12%? I don't know the math, I'm not a scientist. What I do know is that you nay-voted a team that included you and that was bad. BAD Blaze.
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On January 05 2012 08:47 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:46 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 08:45 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 08:41 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 08:40 VisceraEyes wrote:On January 05 2012 08:35 Blazinghand wrote: I'm actually comfortable with my level of activity. I wish I had argued better against Radfield. I think I was suspicious of why he picked me, then the delayed explanation, then the non-self-vote then he and jackal hammered it home... then the mission failed and I was like "man clearly Radfield has some long convoluted plan to make me the fall guy" and things only went downhill from there. Like, everything I did makes sense if you think that Radfield had no reasonable reason to chose me for his team D1. But the thing is you were so tunneled in that when he provided a reason (verily, TWO MINUTES after you commented that he had none), you weren't hearing it. You had already made up your mind. Take it from the tunnel-master...tunneling is bad to the nth. This guy knows it! Radfield's accusations of me were all terrible, and the fact that he tunneled me didn't help. I didn't think he had a good reason, and I honestly still don't. It didn't make sense to me that, as a town player, Rad would grab someone who had made a "scumslip" AND be following my pattern BUT not admit it. The fact that he went after me rather than Palmar later on only further convinced me. Also, I don't know why everyone was obsessed with passing the first team that came by day 1, or that it's scummy not to do so. I saw a team that looked suspicious, so I nayed it. You had no valid reason for calling it suspicious, and it included yourself. Dude I totally did! The fact that I was wrong about radfield doesn't mean it wasn't a weird way he went about things. In fact, he was suspicious enough that Zona thought he was scum.
Zona was wrong quite a bit this game, and no, until you can prove that something about his teammaking was weird, you don't have a valid reason to oppose it.
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On January 05 2012 08:41 kingjames01 wrote: Just wanted to provide an outsider's point of view:
In Resistance, one of the most effective ways to gain information is through the voting process. In fact, once the players become more experienced with the game, it is very common to go through multiple leaders each day.
I was going to post some guides before the game began, but no one seemed interested enough.
Also, the pre-emptive voting mechanic worked against town. You should never be comfortable enough to give up your vote so easily.
Anyway, good game everyone and I hope to be able to get selected for the next one.
I read a few of those guides
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Oh, I want to be picked for a night team because the chance of scum for an N1 mission goes from like enormous to small. But something felt off about the way Radfield made his post. If you think the guy who's picking you is scum, IF YOU REALLY THINK THAT, are you still gonna vote yay?
Obviously if I am unsure I will vote nay. But I thought he was scum. There IS information D1, and that's how Radfield picked me. He read me as town. I read him as scum, and so I tried to "unpick" him by voting nay and passing leadership to the next leader.
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On January 05 2012 08:53 Blazinghand wrote: Oh, I want to be picked for a night team because the chance of scum for an N1 mission goes from like enormous to small. But something felt off about the way Radfield made his post. If you think the guy who's picking you is scum, IF YOU REALLY THINK THAT, are you still gonna vote yay?
Obviously if I am unsure I will vote nay. But I thought he was scum. There IS information D1, and that's how Radfield picked me. He read me as town. I read him as scum, and so I tried to "unpick" him by voting nay and passing leadership to the next leader.
You did not have a valid reason to think Radfield was scum!
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Look if every townsperson just yay-votes their own team, then a scum player could easily pick two townies to go with him and get a free sabotage N1, right? That's terrible. People should use the time to talk, form reads, and have rounds of nay-votes. Like, ok here's the other thing-- everyone else just yay-voted the team without much discussion. that was also a problem.
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On January 05 2012 08:50 VisceraEyes wrote: Blaze your reason for suspecting Rad was ludicrous. It was the determining factor in my suspicion of you. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll start improving your play.
First of all, there's no information in D1. As a townie, you should be PRAYING to be picked for the night team. PRAYING TO WHATEVER GOD YOU BELIEVE IN. Why? Because as you so accurately (and repeatedly) pointed out: there's a 35% chance of picking a scum for the N1 mission. And if the leader picks you, that number goes down DRASTICALLY, right? To something like 12%? I don't know the math, I'm not a scientist. What I do know is that you nay-voted a team that included you and that was bad. BAD Blaze.
That might seem logical to you, but in actual Resistance play, it's very high-level to down-vote a team that you are on. The important thing is to gain information. The more teams that are declined, the more you reveal about the other players. You'll be able to discern voting patterns and that is key from the beginning.
You guys were too hasty this game. He did the right thing. It should have been CLEAR that he was Town. Everyone should have rallied behind him for the rest of the game.
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This game is impossible to win as town.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:54 Jackal58 wrote: This game is impossible to win as town.
Strong disagree. Town only needs to win one of the first 3 missions, and mission 4 is free for them.
Even near the end, if we had won N3, we'd also win N4 and have decent odds going into N5.
I don't think we lost by a huge amount, honestly, despite the 3-0 score.
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On January 05 2012 08:52 Palmar wrote: Zona was wrong quite a bit this game, and no, until you can prove that something about his teammaking was weird, you don't have a valid reason to oppose it.
This is wrong too. Down-voting teams IS IN ITSELF a valid reason. You gain information about the other players and who THEY support.
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On January 05 2012 08:54 Jackal58 wrote: This game is impossible to win as inactive town.
FTFY
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:56 kingjames01 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:52 Palmar wrote: Zona was wrong quite a bit this game, and no, until you can prove that something about his teammaking was weird, you don't have a valid reason to oppose it. This is wrong too. Down-voting teams IS IN ITSELF a valid reason. You gain information about the other players and who THEY support.
I agree with KJ. Ideally, we'd all be super active and everyone would have to propose a team D1 and people would vote, etc, and lots of info would get recorded, then a team would pass and we'd have several pages of votes and evidence to look through.
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On January 05 2012 08:56 kingjames01 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:52 Palmar wrote: Zona was wrong quite a bit this game, and no, until you can prove that something about his teammaking was weird, you don't have a valid reason to oppose it. This is wrong too. Down-voting teams IS IN ITSELF a valid reason. You gain information about the other players and who THEY support.
No, you always need a reason to downvote, because if you do it without reason, scum can do the same randomly if they're smart, and suddenly the voting patterns become useless. If you want to use voting patterns, they have to mean something. Randomly downvoting teams for the simple reason of downvoting them actually destroys evidence, instead of providing it.
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I'm not opposing the idea of downvoting teams, but it must always be done in a commital way with valid reasoning.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 05 2012 08:59 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:56 kingjames01 wrote:On January 05 2012 08:52 Palmar wrote: Zona was wrong quite a bit this game, and no, until you can prove that something about his teammaking was weird, you don't have a valid reason to oppose it. This is wrong too. Down-voting teams IS IN ITSELF a valid reason. You gain information about the other players and who THEY support. No, you always need a reason to downvote, because if you do it without reason, scum can do the same randomly if they're smart, and suddenly the voting patterns become useless. If you want to use voting patterns, they have to mean something. Randomly downvoting teams for the simple reason of downvoting them actually destroys evidence, instead of providing it. See, this is a fair statement, but on day 1 we didn't have any voting patterns-- the first team passed. If I voted yay, it'd have passed unanimously, and then where would we be?
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Did anyone read through these sweet games?
Look what happens in say, the second link. Guy proposes the first team and instead of everyone blind yayvoting, there's discussion, and tons of people vote nay, and it establishes a body of evidence, and the game goes on.
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On January 05 2012 09:00 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:59 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 08:56 kingjames01 wrote:On January 05 2012 08:52 Palmar wrote: Zona was wrong quite a bit this game, and no, until you can prove that something about his teammaking was weird, you don't have a valid reason to oppose it. This is wrong too. Down-voting teams IS IN ITSELF a valid reason. You gain information about the other players and who THEY support. No, you always need a reason to downvote, because if you do it without reason, scum can do the same randomly if they're smart, and suddenly the voting patterns become useless. If you want to use voting patterns, they have to mean something. Randomly downvoting teams for the simple reason of downvoting them actually destroys evidence, instead of providing it. See, this is a fair statement, but on day 1 we didn't have any voting patterns-- the first team passed. If I voted yay, it'd have passed unanimously, and then where would we be?
In exactly the same situation.
Problem is, you didn't achieve anything by nayvoting it, other than painting a target on your ass. If you had actually given valid and strong reasons for voting the way you did, then it'd have been a completely different story. It's now what you did (nayvote), it's how (without valid reasons) you did it that's important.
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On January 05 2012 08:59 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:56 kingjames01 wrote:On January 05 2012 08:52 Palmar wrote: Zona was wrong quite a bit this game, and no, until you can prove that something about his teammaking was weird, you don't have a valid reason to oppose it. This is wrong too. Down-voting teams IS IN ITSELF a valid reason. You gain information about the other players and who THEY support. No, you always need a reason to downvote, because if you do it without reason, scum can do the same randomly if they're smart, and suddenly the voting patterns become useless. If you want to use voting patterns, they have to mean something. Randomly downvoting teams for the simple reason of downvoting them actually destroys evidence, instead of providing it.
This is STILL wrong. Players who first start out seem to BELIEVE that it is scum-like to down-vote and stay away from it. In fact, there's more benefit to down-voting teams that to okay them. Consider this: in any random selection, it is much more likely to include at least 1 spy in the first mission than it is to not include a spy.
Anyway, I don't want to argue with you, since this is your chance to discuss the game that you just played. However, I just wanted to stop the incorrect information being spouted here.
If you want to see "The Power of No" in action and you like the Resistance, go out and buy it. It costs about $15 here in North America and it's been localized across many regions in the world. Then come back and we can have this discussion properly.
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On January 05 2012 09:05 kingjames01 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:59 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 08:56 kingjames01 wrote:On January 05 2012 08:52 Palmar wrote: Zona was wrong quite a bit this game, and no, until you can prove that something about his teammaking was weird, you don't have a valid reason to oppose it. This is wrong too. Down-voting teams IS IN ITSELF a valid reason. You gain information about the other players and who THEY support. No, you always need a reason to downvote, because if you do it without reason, scum can do the same randomly if they're smart, and suddenly the voting patterns become useless. If you want to use voting patterns, they have to mean something. Randomly downvoting teams for the simple reason of downvoting them actually destroys evidence, instead of providing it. This is STILL wrong. Players who first start out seem to BELIEVE that it is scum-like to down-vote and stay away from it. In fact, there's more benefit to down-voting teams that to okay them. Consider this: in any random selection, it is much more likely to include at least 1 spy in the first mission than it is to not include a spy. Anyway, I don't want to argue with you, since this is your chance to discuss the game that you just played. However, I just wanted to stop the incorrect information being spouted here. If you want to see "The Power of No" in action and you like the Resistance, go out and buy it. It costs about $15 here in North America and it's been localized across many regions in the world. Then come back and we can have this discussion properly.
You can't just tell me I'm wrong without backing it up.
It's not scummy at all to say nay to a team, all I'm proposing is you need very valid reasons to do it, especially if you are on the said team yourself. Randomly nayvoting doesn't generate any evidence at all, because mafia can just roll a dice and vote no or yes, which is what I would do. Like if I saw townies just killing off teams with no reason, I'd literally roll a dice to see if I supported the next team.
Without people committing to their ideas voting patterns mean nothing. Town had an excellent opportunity to scrutinize Radfield's team, but they failed to capitalize on it. That doesn't mean that people should start nay-voting teams without any kind of solid reasoning at all, because that invites mafia to do the same.
The same actually goes with yes-votes, I never mentioned it this game (I vaguely hinted at it in my "we must find townies" rants), but its equally important to give solid reasoning when you're yayvoting.
In a game where voting patterns are important, it's even more important to make damn sure the votes actually mean something, so your evidence is worth looking at.
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On January 05 2012 09:05 kingjames01 wrote: Players who first start out seem to BELIEVE that it is scum-like to down-vote and stay away from it.
Anyone who actually knows me, also knows that I'm the biggest proponent of things like this being bullshit, I never look at what people do, only how they do it. There is no such thing as a scumtell.
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On January 05 2012 09:05 kingjames01 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:59 Palmar wrote:On January 05 2012 08:56 kingjames01 wrote:On January 05 2012 08:52 Palmar wrote: Zona was wrong quite a bit this game, and no, until you can prove that something about his teammaking was weird, you don't have a valid reason to oppose it. This is wrong too. Down-voting teams IS IN ITSELF a valid reason. You gain information about the other players and who THEY support. No, you always need a reason to downvote, because if you do it without reason, scum can do the same randomly if they're smart, and suddenly the voting patterns become useless. If you want to use voting patterns, they have to mean something. Randomly downvoting teams for the simple reason of downvoting them actually destroys evidence, instead of providing it. This is STILL wrong. Players who first start out seem to BELIEVE that it is scum-like to down-vote and stay away from it. In fact, there's more benefit to down-voting teams that to okay them. Consider this: in any random selection, it is much more likely to include at least 1 spy in the first mission than it is to not include a spy. Anyway, I don't want to argue with you, since this is your chance to discuss the game that you just played. However, I just wanted to stop the incorrect information being spouted here. If you want to see "The Power of No" in action and you like the Resistance, go out and buy it. It costs about $15 here in North America and it's been localized across many regions in the world. Then come back and we can have this discussion properly.
The difference between that game and this one is that everyone's posts are stored here in a text format for everyone to go back and reference. The table-top game is different in that no one is transcribing what happened and everything everyone said, so just blindly nay-voting is totally and completely asinine. You're right about the "power of no" in an IRL game, I won't dispute that...but in forum Resistance, you'd better damn well have a reason for EVERY action you take because people are going to look back and see WHY you made X decision or took Y action. EVERY TIME.
Palmar isn't wrong, you're just talking about two different games. It's essentially the same game, but with the different format comes different strategies.
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meh, i was right on toad, but just half right on rad. VE was right when he said you could just swap him in
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I'm still a little herpy, but on the whole I'd say my game has vastly improved.
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by half right on rad i mean half right on palmar. I think my reads were screwed up because it seemed that most of the townies making sense all game just didn't care
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yes, you're actually quite a bit better. Which means you can't be mad if I hang you for being wrong!
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I will not play this again until I observe a few more games in this format. Not a knock on you Forumite- Thanks for running it- that's a knock on me. I still don't grasp the nuances of this. I wanted to lynch Palmar.
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On January 05 2012 09:23 GreYMisT wrote: by half right on rad i mean half right on palmar. I think my reads were screwed up because it seemed that most of the townies making sense all game just didn't care
You really need to start taking lead in towns dude, you've played quite a few games, you grasp the idea well and your reads are usually pretty good, but you always seem to end up like a background unimportant figure in towns. Playing like you're doing now is great for your scum meta, but you have the talent to take it to the next level.
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On January 05 2012 09:23 Palmar wrote: yes, you're actually quite a bit better. Which means you can't be mad if I hang you for being wrong!
Actually, yeah I can...because being wrong still /= being scum...no matter how good one is. You can hang me for using poor logic I guess, or for appealing to logical fallacies, but you'd better NEVER try and hang me for being wrong or I'll hang you for being scum.
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On January 05 2012 09:25 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 09:23 GreYMisT wrote: by half right on rad i mean half right on palmar. I think my reads were screwed up because it seemed that most of the townies making sense all game just didn't care You really need to start taking lead in towns dude, you've played quite a few games, you grasp the idea well and your reads are usually pretty good, but you always seem to end up like a background unimportant figure in towns. Playing like you're doing now is great for your scum meta, but you have the talent to take it to the next level.
This. I followed you bro. You were my anchor this game, and we almost won because of it. We really only lost because of inactivity.
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Hosts: why did you change the voting system so that the votes were public? The votes should ALWAYS be revealed simultaneously.
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On January 05 2012 09:25 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 09:23 GreYMisT wrote: by half right on rad i mean half right on palmar. I think my reads were screwed up because it seemed that most of the townies making sense all game just didn't care You really need to start taking lead in towns dude, you've played quite a few games, you grasp the idea well and your reads are usually pretty good, but you always seem to end up like a background unimportant figure in towns. Playing like you're doing now is great for your scum meta, but you have the talent to take it to the next level.
yea, this game I was pretty lost with the new format and stratagies associated, as I'm sure most of us were.
The reason I feel like I end up in the background is that I like to be as sure as possible in my reads, I dont like to do things based on assumptions unless the situation demands it. This is why if you look at election mafia early on I was changing my mind often. I was trying to be more active in that game, so you got to see the thought process that happens in my head all game long. This is also why when a game gets close to LYLO, you see me kick it up far beyond my typical play, becuase im more certain of my reads and feel comfortable with convincing others of them.
I think my problem still is confidence, I just need to start pushing harder. sure i might lose my record of never being lynched as town, but hey, as long as i win.
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Yeah dude, don't fear the noose as town. It lends credence to your reads for those that you leave behind. Your job isn't to stay alive, it's to kill scum. SCUM'S job is to stay alive.
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It doesnt help that for some reason i go into every game with the mindset of me being mafia.
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You should. Know thy enemy.
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You know that if more Mafia players went into games with the mindset of townies, towns would have a MUCH harder time of it, ya?
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On January 05 2012 09:32 kingjames01 wrote: Hosts: why did you change the voting system so that the votes were public? The votes should ALWAYS be revealed simultaneously. It´s a question about porting. We wanted a way to make a tabletop game work on a forum. If we have to wait until every player has voted then it takes 3 days to vote for each leader´s team, and the game will just grind to a halt. Continous voting was the best way to make it work with a limited discussion phase.
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On January 05 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 09:32 kingjames01 wrote: Hosts: why did you change the voting system so that the votes were public? The votes should ALWAYS be revealed simultaneously. It´s a question about porting. We wanted a way to make a tabletop game work on a forum. If we have to wait until every player has voted then it takes 3 days to vote for each leader´s team, and the game will just grind to a halt. Continous voting was the best way to make it work with a limited discussion phase.
When Resistance games are Played by Forum on other sites, we usually PM the votes to the hosts. You are correct that it is more work, but if you have the authority of the Ban Thread you should be alright here.
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Anyway, back on the subject of this game:
I think one of the major things we did wrong as a town was not talk about our choices. I regret not being here for the D1 discussion, as I felt like an outsider reading it back over once Rad's choices were made. D2 was a little better and we could have won if D3 had had more of the same. If Zona and Jackal had been here, I feel confident that we could have won this game handily...likewise if Rad had come any sooner than he did. Think about it - if my team had been accepted, D4 would have been in the bag (town Rad would absolutely have sent the same team that came back with a successful N3) and we just would have had to determine who else was town based on that. I would have put suggested Radfield if he'd done that, who was town, and the game would have been over....but as it was, not enough people were around for us to actually DISCUSS what our options were. In future games (I hope there will be future games...) I'll be taking a slightly different approach.
1) More discussion. This killed town. Because it was a new game, we all played like newbs slinging shit at each other instead of looking at what was happening. Palmar as LEADER almost got a team with HIM ON IT approved after being on TWO FAILED MISSIONS.
2) More Nay-voting. Not arbitrarily or anything, but if I get a funny feeling about someone, I'ma do what Blaze did and just nay-vote the team. It's not like nay-voting is like voting to lynch or anything. They'll have a chance to prove themselves later.
3) Less Mud-slinging. I personally tunneled in on Blaze for a minute there. I was able to cool my jets and see him for the townie he was eventually, but it blinded me to the fact that Palmar hadn't said a damn thing in the interim. I didn't become sure about Palmar until AFTER he came back into the thread and kept appealing to me...I should've been looking at what was happening in the game rather than trying to find ways Blaze was suspicious (as if I had to look -.-)
4) More Activity. This game demands it, because of the pace of the voting system. Like, 2 people could have had all-town teams in this game and I would have never known it because of the rate that I was checking the thread. This game demands slightly higher activity than Mafia, as the information comes just as much from the elections as from the missions.
I thoroughly enjoyed the setup guys and I sincerely hope we'll see more of this game. It's close enough to Mafia that we can run more of these, ya? I'd consider it a mini too, so we can roll a Resistance when there's not a mini on deck.
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On January 05 2012 09:48 kingjames01 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:On January 05 2012 09:32 kingjames01 wrote: Hosts: why did you change the voting system so that the votes were public? The votes should ALWAYS be revealed simultaneously. It´s a question about porting. We wanted a way to make a tabletop game work on a forum. If we have to wait until every player has voted then it takes 3 days to vote for each leader´s team, and the game will just grind to a halt. Continous voting was the best way to make it work with a limited discussion phase. When Resistance games are Played by Forum on other sites, we usually PM the votes to the hosts. You are correct that it is more work, but if you have the authority of the Ban Thread you should be alright here.
Forumite: if you're still there could you comment on why you did not use The Plot Thickens for a 9 player game? Also, do you have plans to run another Resistance game, and if so, can you tell us when?
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On January 05 2012 09:48 kingjames01 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:On January 05 2012 09:32 kingjames01 wrote: Hosts: why did you change the voting system so that the votes were public? The votes should ALWAYS be revealed simultaneously. It´s a question about porting. We wanted a way to make a tabletop game work on a forum. If we have to wait until every player has voted then it takes 3 days to vote for each leader´s team, and the game will just grind to a halt. Continous voting was the best way to make it work with a limited discussion phase. When Resistance games are Played by Forum on other sites, we usually PM the votes to the hosts. You are correct that it is more work, but if you have the authority of the Ban Thread you should be alright here. Could work, I don´t mind more things to do with PMs, but it takes so much more time, waiting for others and then them waiting for me. It sometimes takes a leader two days to propose a team, if we add 2 days for voting, and another round each time a team is rejected, then we´re quickly reaching weeks for each discussion phase, and banning people to speed this up make it harder to read other players. This wasn´t the perfect way to deal with it, but it worked. The next game the host can try something else, like adding more days to the discussion when a leader proposes a team.
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On January 05 2012 10:10 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 09:48 kingjames01 wrote:On January 05 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:On January 05 2012 09:32 kingjames01 wrote: Hosts: why did you change the voting system so that the votes were public? The votes should ALWAYS be revealed simultaneously. It´s a question about porting. We wanted a way to make a tabletop game work on a forum. If we have to wait until every player has voted then it takes 3 days to vote for each leader´s team, and the game will just grind to a halt. Continous voting was the best way to make it work with a limited discussion phase. When Resistance games are Played by Forum on other sites, we usually PM the votes to the hosts. You are correct that it is more work, but if you have the authority of the Ban Thread you should be alright here. Could work, I don´t mind more things to do with PMs, but it takes so much more time, waiting for others and then them waiting for me. It sometimes takes a leader two days to propose a team, if we add 2 days for voting, and another round each time a team is rejected, then we´re quickly reaching weeks for each discussion phase, and banning people to speed this up make it harder to read other players. This wasn´t the perfect way to deal with it, but it worked. The next game the host can try something else, like adding more days to the discussion when a leader proposes a team.
I think that would be a good compromise, actually. Perhaps, give the leader a set duration of time to propose a team which then resets the clock on the discussion phase. The players would then have a set duration of time to send in a vote.
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On January 05 2012 10:07 kingjames01 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 09:48 kingjames01 wrote:On January 05 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:On January 05 2012 09:32 kingjames01 wrote: Hosts: why did you change the voting system so that the votes were public? The votes should ALWAYS be revealed simultaneously. It´s a question about porting. We wanted a way to make a tabletop game work on a forum. If we have to wait until every player has voted then it takes 3 days to vote for each leader´s team, and the game will just grind to a halt. Continous voting was the best way to make it work with a limited discussion phase. When Resistance games are Played by Forum on other sites, we usually PM the votes to the hosts. You are correct that it is more work, but if you have the authority of the Ban Thread you should be alright here. Forumite: if you're still there could you comment on why you did not use The Plot Thickens for a 9 player game? Also, do you have plans to run another Resistance game, and if so, can you tell us when? I wanted to keep it simple this first time, vanilla. As for running more games, I´m up for it, but nothing planned. It depends on prplhz though, it´s his bot that made it possible to run a quick game. The bot is essential for this setup, but there´s other ones that take more time that could work too.
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On January 05 2012 10:13 kingjames01 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 10:10 Forumite wrote:On January 05 2012 09:48 kingjames01 wrote:On January 05 2012 09:46 Forumite wrote:On January 05 2012 09:32 kingjames01 wrote: Hosts: why did you change the voting system so that the votes were public? The votes should ALWAYS be revealed simultaneously. It´s a question about porting. We wanted a way to make a tabletop game work on a forum. If we have to wait until every player has voted then it takes 3 days to vote for each leader´s team, and the game will just grind to a halt. Continous voting was the best way to make it work with a limited discussion phase. When Resistance games are Played by Forum on other sites, we usually PM the votes to the hosts. You are correct that it is more work, but if you have the authority of the Ban Thread you should be alright here. Could work, I don´t mind more things to do with PMs, but it takes so much more time, waiting for others and then them waiting for me. It sometimes takes a leader two days to propose a team, if we add 2 days for voting, and another round each time a team is rejected, then we´re quickly reaching weeks for each discussion phase, and banning people to speed this up make it harder to read other players. This wasn´t the perfect way to deal with it, but it worked. The next game the host can try something else, like adding more days to the discussion when a leader proposes a team. I think that would be a good compromise, actually. Perhaps, give the leader a set duration of time to propose a team which then resets the clock on the discussion phase. The players would then have a set duration of time to send in a vote. A leader who doesn´t propose on time is skipped, a player who doesn´t vote on time gets a warning. Much slower game, but with only 5 mission possible that might work.
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Also THX PRPL FOR THE BOT!!!
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On January 05 2012 10:31 VisceraEyes wrote: Also THX PRPL FOR THE BOT!!! THIS!
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Heh, thought would find some time to catch up during a sudden hectic period but it's over...it's just as well.
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Woops, fell the hell asleep and the flavor I prepared was for you actually accepting a team. You'll never know.
Stampeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Time was running out for the insurgency cell. The group had already planned the trip for the famed polish potato stores, which would surely have provided a setting for some excellent flavor, but they had to find a group of four for the mission first. The air was rife with paranoia, everybody was accusing someone and in turn getting accused by someone else.
"no u"
"NO U"
Some of them were yelling at the top of their lungs, some were sobbing in the dark corners of the room, some were just sitting staring into the empty air. Suddenly one of them said "Look at the time... LOOK AT THE TIME!". The whole room came to a silence and no one moved, clinging to the self delusional hope that time would stand still with them, but it was too late. They had failed to send a team for their last mission and the war was now lost. With sadness in their eyes they all look around at each other, but hey, where the hell were Toadesstern, TruthBringer, and Palmar?
Suddenly the door to the bunker they were hiding in slammed open and in came running a wild herd of stampeding buffaloes. One of them tried to reason with the buffaloes but these were unreasonable buffaloes that just wanted to run headfirst into objects. One of them tried to shoot the buffaloes with a bazooka but these were immortal buffaloes that could not suffer any physical damage. One of them tried to get away by crawling up the walls of the bunker but these buffaloes transcended the space-time continuum and could easily run on both walls and ceiling, in this universe and in all others. There was no escape and they were all violently ripped to pieces.
Meanwhile, Toadesstern, TruthBringer, and Palmar were on their way to GMarshal's.
Radfield, Zona, GreYMisT, Blazinghand, Jackal58 and VisceraEyes were trampled and gored to death. Toadesstern, TruthBringer and Palmar celebrated their victory with a traditional MLP:FiM marathon.
Thanks to everybody for playing and thanks to Forumite for letting me cohost
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Wow, the last 1 hour or so of this game was so intense.
It's like those action movies, where the hero is rushing over to the damsel in distress, and he has a time limit. And every single time it appears he won't make it, and the damsel will DIE, and you get goosebumps and stuff.
And in the end you get to the edge of the seat when 10 seconds are remaining, but when 2 seconds are remaining, the hero comes and saves the day...
...that didn't happen here obviously, but the previous thrill was there.
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On January 05 2012 14:05 gonzaw wrote: Wow, the last 1 hour or so of this game was so intense.
It's like those action movies, where the hero is rushing over to the damsel in distress, and he has a time limit. And every single time it appears he won't make it, and the damsel will DIE, and you get goosebumps and stuff.
And in the end you get to the edge of the seat when 10 seconds are remaining, but when 2 seconds are remaining, the hero comes and saves the day...
...that didn't happen here obviously, but the previous thrill was there.
you would be surprised how often that happens. Read the last day of couple's therapy or all of LoTR mafia.
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Bumping this too. For hype.
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You guys would both like this game. Read. I can sense your anus is ill prepared.
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