EPT
" simply because it's another preemptive measure. Mr. Wiggles Mini Mafia I - Page 5
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Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
" simply because it's another preemptive measure. | ||
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Misder
United States1557 Posts
On December 23 2011 17:47 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Lynching lurkers day 1 always results in hitting a townie, and people aren't really as divided on who to lynch as they could be, so there is less information to be gained from a lurker mislynch. It just doesn't make sense on Day 1. Let's deal with that problem when/if it comes up later. Lynch all Liars is actually extremely mafia friendly. Contrary to popular belief, they don't need to lie. It means they can push townies much easier. (I was mafia in Steamship. Poor Chaoser.) That is not to say that lying is ok, quite the opposite, but it should be a factor, not the leading cause. Let's avoid policy lynches, it's too easy to end the discussion once a lynch candidate has been found, and if that person was up there because of policy, discussion is essentially minimalized. Other things we should probably discuss- Pressure voting: Pressure is fine, pressure voting doesn't accomplish much, and only serves to start a bandwagon that shouldn't exist until a proper case is formed. Voting should be reserved for people you explicitly believe to be scum. Pressure somebody, and then if they don't respond correctly, use that as part of the reasoning to throw your vote on them. Tunnelling: I believe it to do more harm than good in many occasions, but it can be useful in getting scum-slips out of tunnelled scum. As long as the person is aware that they are tunnelling, and is willing to stop doing it to weigh in on other lynch candidates, it's fine. Veterans: We should make people stand purely on the effort they put into this game. Taking a veteran meta into account only seems to have promoted sheeping in recent games. Lynching lurkers may usually hit a townie, but it does a number of crucial things 1) Gives incentive for greens to participate 2a) Pressures mafia to post more 2b) Mafia posts more = More likely to make mistakes 2c) Mafia lurking is a normal strategy for a lot of players Lynch all Liars is not mafia friendly. Fine, mafia don't need to lie to win, but they can (and they will if we eventually do a massclaim). Also, town doesn't need to lie either. Look at the tradeoffs: mafia MAY hit incorrectly, causes town to become confused, mafia also has incentive to lie. If people are allowed to lie, mafia has so many more strategies. Pressure voting I like, but its up to the player. ofc you vote for someone you think is scum, not town. Bandwagons give a lot of information. Tunnelling is up to the player. It's not usually effective unless you are skilled at it though from my experience. Veterans, we don't have I'm pretty sure. | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
As town the optimal way to play is to appear as good as possible. What good can come from saying you are a bad player? It only frees some responsibility from acting anti-town. | ||
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Misder
United States1557 Posts
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Misder
United States1557 Posts
1) If the mafia lies or lurks and we don't have policy lynch, mafia can weedle out of his/her situation 2) Discussion on whether or not someone is townlurking/townlying or scumlurking/scumlying is useless. This kind of discussion doesn't generate anything but confusion. 3) No discussion on easy lynches allows for more discussion/focus on more important issues, like scumhunting. | ||
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Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
On December 24 2011 00:40 Misder wrote: Policy lynches stem from this: Townies have no reason to lurk or lie. Mafia can gain from lurking or lying. Naturally. But my point still stands, if someone looks very green, it is utterly retarded to lynch them because of some stupid policy. | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
On December 24 2011 00:49 Shraft wrote: Naturally. But my point still stands, if someone looks very green, it is utterly retarded to lynch them because of some stupid policy. I don't think you can get a solid read off a lurking player but feel free to prove me wrong. Fake role claims need to be lynched ASAP, I don't care if the player might have "looked" green before, it is anti-town so they shouldn't have done. Tthe risks of a fake roleclaim overweigh it's benefits. Hopefully discussing Lynch All Liars beforehand will make it clear to a townie that they shouldn't fake claim. Let's leave the lurking and the lying to scum players. | ||
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Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
On December 24 2011 01:31 Grackaroni wrote: I don't think you can get a solid read off a lurking player but feel free to prove me wrong. Fake role claims need to be lynched ASAP, I don't care if the player might have "looked" green before, it is anti-town so they shouldn't have done. Tthe risks of a fake roleclaim overweigh it's benefits. Hopefully discussing Lynch All Liars beforehand will make it clear to a townie that they shouldn't fake claim. Let's leave the lurking and the lying to scum players. We shouldn't lynch people based on policy alone. We must integrate it with all the other knowledge we have about the player first. That's why I disagree with policy lynches. Sure, lying or fake-claiming is scummy, but if we have a better alternative (someone with many good cases against them, for example) we should not lynch someone based on some stupid policy. | ||
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Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
##Vote sephirotharg By the way, I just noticed that Mattchew has been banned. Going to PM Wiggles about it. | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
I don't want to allow scum to get away with fake claiming this game which can be prevented if the town players are against fake claiming. | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
Shraft, what do you want me to say? I merely made a comment based on my tendencies - if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town. Add to my case the fact that I've already acted pro-town, in generating discussion with the last part of my first post, and I'm not sure how you can justify voting for me. | ||
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GiygaS
Canada1043 Posts
On Sephiroth (goddamn you were hard to beat in Kingdom Hearts 2  ), I think his post is definitely scummy, and I'm placing my FoS on him, but I am not lynching him yet. I want to see more than one post out of him to decide if I want to lynch him, as I don't believe one singular post should ever be the reason someone is lynched unless it is really extremely crazy. I'm looking forward to his defense and responses to future questions I ask of him | ||
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GiygaS
Canada1043 Posts
First of all, you expected to be voted on early? A town would never have that tendency. You made a comment on your tendencies that just sparks excuses for yourself later on down the road, that's NOT pro-town. Your last sentence didn't really "generate discussion", as that info was used as a footnote to other people's posts already. ##Vote sephirotharg | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
On December 23 2011 23:39 Dirkzor wrote: I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it! Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you. ##Vote sephirotharg That's all well and good - I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say here. In general, lurking isn't optimal play, not for town at any rate. That said, you didn't actually provide any reason to vote for me here. You responded to my post, but gave no rationale as to why you placed your vote on me. Please do everyone the favor of explaining your actions. | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
No, you misinterpreted my post - I expected somebody to notice that part about me lurking long before they did - I didn't expect to get votes so early! You see, mafia will tend to push for a mis-lynch day 1 - and I don't mind putting myself out there as a target, if it lures them out of hiding. So, anyone who has pushed for lynching me, consider yourself on notice. And the last objection you have to me: my asking people about day 1 lynches did indeed generate discussion. See this post: On December 23 2011 13:59 GiygaS wrote: And also, it's stupid to not get a lynch on day1 unless we have literally no leads. It's better to lynch a guy that we think is leaning scum, then not lynching anybody at all. And this one: On December 23 2011 15:16 Misder wrote: @Day1 Lynch- yes. ofc, that comes with scumhunting as well as potentially lynching lurkers. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
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GiygaS
Canada1043 Posts
On December 24 2011 03:38 sephirotharg wrote: RE: GiygaS No, you misinterpreted my post - I expected somebody to notice that part about me lurking long before they did - I didn't expect to get votes so early! You see, mafia will tend to push for a mis-lynch day 1 - and I don't mind putting myself out there as a target, if it lures them out of hiding. So, anyone who has pushed for lynching me, consider yourself on notice. And the last objection you have to me: my asking people about day 1 lynches did indeed generate discussion. See this post: And this one: Then why did you write the thing about lurking >.< Now you are implying that everyone accusing you is mafia, and "warning" everyone voting for you. Those quotes are just what I said, footnotes that came in to agreement as soon as the question was asked. | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
This is a game of circles within circles son, and you'd best step to that right quick. Weird accent aside, I'm merely stating that I find you, Dirkzor, and Shraft rather suspicious for voting so early and pushing hard. I think it's rather obvious why I wrote "the thing about lurking" - to generate some discussion, allowing scum to reveal themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the three of you flips red - but we'll see. | ||
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hyshes
Belgium428 Posts
Eventhough i'm not going to vote at this point for him, i'm kinda suspicious about sephirotharg. He seems to change from opinions a bit too much. But then again, i've seen weirder play in mafia. ps. I'm now out for the night, just stepped in as replacement so no high post count for me day1.. will be here tommorow | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 24 2011 00:34 Misder wrote: Lynching lurkers may usually hit a townie, but it does a number of crucial things 1) Gives incentive for greens to participate 2a) Pressures mafia to post more 2b) Mafia posts more = More likely to make mistakes 2c) Mafia lurking is a normal strategy for a lot of players Lynch all Liars is not mafia friendly. Fine, mafia don't need to lie to win, but they can (and they will if we eventually do a massclaim). Also, town doesn't need to lie either. Look at the tradeoffs: mafia MAY hit incorrectly, causes town to become confused, mafia also has incentive to lie. If people are allowed to lie, mafia has so many more strategies. Pressure voting I like, but its up to the player. ofc you vote for someone you think is scum, not town. Bandwagons give a lot of information. Tunnelling is up to the player. It's not usually effective unless you are skilled at it though from my experience. Veterans, we don't have I'm pretty sure. Lynching a lurker, especially on day 1, is essentially a cop-out. Active people will reveal themselves to be scummy via what they say and do, and there is much more information to be had if an active person flips. Lurkers are better targets for vigilantes, especially since they might have been up for mod-killing anyway. Even if we don't have a vigilante, lurkers don't have very much town influence end game, and can make for great dt targets if they continue to do the bare minimum, so it's very easy to remove them later into the game. As time passes, you can seperate the actions of town/mafia lurkers slightly because mafia have an agenda. On lynch all liars, it's very hard to conclusively prove that somebody lied. If you spend time trying to do that, that's time you could have been spending on real scum hunting. Additionally, if a person is scum and caught lying, there are going to be other things that point towards it. Which leads me to- the lie shouldn't have to be the whole argument on somebody. If your town, and you really feel like you have to lie, have the pros and cons well and truely thought out before doing so. I don't condone lying by any means, but I've played scum against a LaL town, and it really felt like it was a field day. If we allow easy bandwagons, it's promoting an anti-town atmosphere where people don't feel like they have to explain everything they do. Pressure voting is bad because it's too easy to start a bandwagon, and doesn't really accomplish anything. | ||
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