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On December 23 2011 13:03 Misder wrote:
This is usually how it works imo. Lynch All Liars is a great policy lynch. Lynch All Lurkers also great, except that there are usually too many lurkers to lynch all of them.
Without these policy lynches, mafia can get out in too many situations.
Also, I've never played with any of you guys, so if you guys could link me to any games you guys played recently, that would be nice. I'm a bit too lazy to look stuff up right now.
This towns going to need everyone pulling their weight if we're going to catch the scums. Dont be lazy.
That said, I'm a nice guy. So heres a game that involves a few of the same players: Student Mafia
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Oh I guess I should link my games too. The most recent legit ones I've played on TL are Mafia XXX, XXIII- I'm pretty sure. It's been a while.
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For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun 
As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town.
And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary.
With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch?
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It will be very important that every player actively contributes, it doesn't matter if you aren't 100% confident about who is mafia it is important to put your thoughts down. The more posts we get the better so keep them coming.
Please try not to sheep other players, if you actually believe that a player is mafia you need to justify it and provide your own reasoning, simply saying you agree with somebody else's arguments will not help us figure out your alignment.
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I used to agree with LaL, but now it seems like a very shaky idea to me. What if we have a blue that lies to save himself? What if we have a green that's trying a gambit to draw out mafia? What if we have someone lie about their role to generate town discussion, later revealing they lied. I agree that LaL could be used on petty lies like excuses that contradict something someone has said before, but I disagree with Lynch ALL Liars.
Lynch all Lurkers is also terrible, as 100% of the time, when you lynch a lurker, a mafia member or the mafia as a whole will stray it to be a town member. This rule is basically asking to kill a townie.
I'm going to conclude with my general opinion on policies in general : No. Every single policy on, "he did this, *lists policy*, time to lynch him" is stupid, plain and simple. Let's get smarter and start playing this game right, with case-by-case analysis.
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And also, it's stupid to not get a lynch on day1 unless we have literally no leads. It's better to lynch a guy that we think is leaning scum, then not lynching anybody at all.
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On December 23 2011 13:58 GiygaS wrote:
I used to agree with LaL, but now it seems like a very shaky idea to me. What if we have a blue that lies to save himself? What if we have a green that's trying a gambit to draw out mafia? What if we have someone lie about their role to generate town discussion, later revealing they lied. I agree that LaL could be used on petty lies like excuses that contradict something someone has said before, but I disagree with Lynch ALL Liars.
Lynch all Lurkers is also terrible, as 100% of the time, when you lynch a lurker, a mafia member or the mafia as a whole will stray it to be a town member. This rule is basically asking to kill a townie.
I'm going to conclude with my general opinion on policies in general : No. Every single policy on, "he did this, *lists policy*, time to lynch him" is stupid, plain and simple. Let's get smarter and start playing this game right, with case-by-case analysis.
I don't see why a blue should be claiming green in the first place, nobody is going to ask for a roleclaim unless its during a time when its actually beneficial for the blue to claim, in which case they wouldn't claim green.
Greens should not fake-roleclaim blue the risks is just much greater than the reward. Let's say somebody claims to be a medic and gets shot for it. It's pretty good that he saved the possibility of a blue death but it's also possible that the real blue counter-claims gets killed and then the green gets lynched. Fake claims are anti-town so don't do it.
I don't even really understand the last idea but it doesn't seem like something that would benefit town in a major way so just avoid it.
Yes, mafia will try to save their own lurker but we only lynch a lurker if we can't agree on a scummy active player, an active player will give us more information so they have much more potential to help if they are town or to scum-slip if they are scum. I agree with you that no-lynches are bad, so I don't see why it would be a good idea to lynch an active player over a lurker.
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On December 23 2011 13:58 GiygaS wrote:
I used to agree with LaL, but now it seems like a very shaky idea to me. What if we have a blue that lies to save himself? What if we have a green that's trying a gambit to draw out mafia? What if we have someone lie about their role to generate town discussion, later revealing they lied. I agree that LaL could be used on petty lies like excuses that contradict something someone has said before, but I disagree with Lynch ALL Liars.
Lynch all Lurkers is also terrible, as 100% of the time, when you lynch a lurker, a mafia member or the mafia as a whole will stray it to be a town member. This rule is basically asking to kill a townie.
I'm going to conclude with my general opinion on policies in general : No. Every single policy on, "he did this, *lists policy*, time to lynch him" is stupid, plain and simple. Let's get smarter and start playing this game right, with case-by-case analysis.
The problem with people lying is that it generates confusion. Confusion leads to mislynches and a shitty atmosphere for finding scum because it can be hard to tell who's blue and lying to keep themselves alive and who's red and lying to keep themselves alive. From the observers perspective, these will look the same! So by all of us agreeing to not lie, the only ones left lying will be the people who are trying to encourage confusion (yep, dem reds).
Giygas, how do you suggest we deal with lurkers if not by hanging them? Giving them a free pass because "they might be town" is just giving the scum team permission to hide among the inactives and pick us off one-by-one each night.
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I say we threaten to lynch them or get any kind of vigilante to shoot lurkers. Having a vig do it eliminates the threat of the lurker being strayed to be a townie.
@Grack: I'm just saying things should be done on a case-by-case basis. What I believe is that a lie should be counted as A piece of evidence against someone instead of all the evidence against someone.
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The vigilante is a good point but we don't actually even know that we have one.
If I was a vigilante I would wait to find a target I'm really sure is scum rather than use my only shot on a lurker. That's just me though I can see some benefits to your idea.
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@Day1 Lynch- yes. ofc, that comes with scumhunting as well as potentially lynching lurkers.
Strict rules on Lynch all Liars is key because it really does cause confusion as well as give mafia a way out- ie "oh I lied about being medic because i wanted mafia to shoot me" when in reality, he/she wanted to get medic to softclaim or even counterclaim
Strict rules on Lynch all Lurkers is key because it also gives mafia a way out- ie "Oh sorry, I was busy- what's going on again? I really want to contribute!"- taking the noob/lurker approach of being mafia
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I see the main reason for Lynch all Lurkers and Lynch all Liars is that it allows for more confusion if they are not in place. The substitute for this would just to act well anyway. Like seriously, if I see anyone here condemning not using lynch all lurkers, and then lurk themselves, I will pull 5 gaskets all in a millisecond. But seriously, we don't need these policies if we all contribute to a good town atmosphere anyway!
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/Confirmed, have to go now, will be back in a couple of hours.
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I should also clarify something, if there's no one to lynch, I'd rather lynch a lurker than have no lynch at all.
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Lynching lurkers day 1 always results in hitting a townie, and people aren't really as divided on who to lynch as they could be, so there is less information to be gained from a lurker mislynch. It just doesn't make sense on Day 1. Let's deal with that problem when/if it comes up later.
Lynch all Liars is actually extremely mafia friendly. Contrary to popular belief, they don't need to lie. It means they can push townies much easier. (I was mafia in Steamship. Poor Chaoser.)
That is not to say that lying is ok, quite the opposite, but it should be a factor, not the leading cause.
Let's avoid policy lynches, it's too easy to end the discussion once a lynch candidate has been found, and if that person was up there because of policy, discussion is essentially minimalized.
Other things we should probably discuss-
Pressure voting: Pressure is fine, pressure voting doesn't accomplish much, and only serves to start a bandwagon that shouldn't exist until a proper case is formed. Voting should be reserved for people you explicitly believe to be scum. Pressure somebody, and then if they don't respond correctly, use that as part of the reasoning to throw your vote on them.
Tunnelling: I believe it to do more harm than good in many occasions, but it can be useful in getting scum-slips out of tunnelled scum. As long as the person is aware that they are tunnelling, and is willing to stop doing it to weigh in on other lynch candidates, it's fine.
Veterans: We should make people stand purely on the effort they put into this game. Taking a veteran meta into account only seems to have promoted sheeping in recent games.
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/confirmed
I agree with the no policy lynches. Everything should be accounted for and done on a case by case basis. But with that said I don't like people lurking or lieing. Both things are something you learn as a child is bad - well maybe not lurking =) - and the mafia are the bad guys.
Do we have any veterans in this game? Given i've only followed a few games here on TL mafia I can't see any that spring out at a vet? Correct me if I'm wrong please. However I do believe that people should look at what happens in this game and judge on that. No reason to say "But sir, he was very good in..." When he have done shitall in this game and caused several mislynches.
This is my first game playing Mafia. That said, I will try not to sheep and try to make my own opinions. I WILL win this! =) (Hahaha no meta for you guys  )
About lynches and/or No lynches: I would rather lynch someone i might think is town to get a lynch then to get a no lynch. It gives information and it helps town.
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On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town. And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary. With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch?
I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it!
Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you.
##Vote sephirotharg
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Also, it's been 12 hours since we started and several people have yet to post.
Mattchew
Shraft
minus_human (yeah one post saying you would be back in a few hours...)
EchelonTee
jaybrundage
Gogo!
We need more activity if we want to find scum. Otherwise it will be chaos come a few hours before lynch time!
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To start off, I am going to adopt L's post formatting from Responsibility Mafia in this game. It makes for very clean and easily readable posts.
RE: Policy Lynches
I am vehemently against any kind of policy lynch. Lynch all liars and lynch all lurkers are terrible ideas. We should always lynch the guy that we think is most likely to flip scum, i.e. if someone has looked very green for the whole game, but then it is revealed that he lied once, we should not lynch him. Now don't get me wrong, not lying and not lurking are two great policies to abide by as town. What I'm saying is that policy lynches are always bad.
RE: Gambits and lying/fake-claiming as town.
Generally, never fake-claim or attempt to reveal scum through some kind of clever trap. Most of the times they do not work because the plan is flawed in some way and in a no PM game, they're especially hard to pull off. Don't do it.
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EPT
