Mr. Wiggles Mini Mafia I

On December 21 2011 22:22 Dirkzor wrote:
Jackel you are already in the responsibility mafia, mind giving your slot up here? The holiday season just fits so perfectly for me to try a mafia game...

pretty please =)

On December 22 2011 03:54 Jitsu wrote:
A Observer QT**

On December 22 2011 04:08 Dirkzor wrote:
Thanks Jackal.

=)

Im ok with starting tomorrow.

On December 23 2011 06:37 Dirkzor wrote:
Will you extend the days/nights around christmas and/or New year's eve?

Just wondering since I'll be gone the evening of the 24th and 25th (family traditions)...

On December 23 2011 08:55 GiygaS wrote:
So does the game start in ~3 hours?

On December 23 2011 13:03 Misder wrote:
This is usually how it works imo. Lynch All Liars is a great policy lynch. Lynch All Lurkers also great, except that there are usually too many lurkers to lynch all of them.

Without these policy lynches, mafia can get out in too many situations.

Also, I've never played with any of you guys, so if you guys could link me to any games you guys played recently, that would be nice. I'm a bit too lazy to look stuff up right now.

On December 23 2011 13:58 GiygaS wrote:
I used to agree with LaL, but now it seems like a very shaky idea to me. What if we have a blue that lies to save himself? What if we have a green that's trying a gambit to draw out mafia? What if we have someone lie about their role to generate town discussion, later revealing they lied. I agree that LaL could be used on petty lies like excuses that contradict something someone has said before, but I disagree with Lynch ALL Liars.

Lynch all Lurkers is also terrible, as 100% of the time, when you lynch a lurker, a mafia member or the mafia as a whole will stray it to be a town member. This rule is basically asking to kill a townie.

I'm going to conclude with my general opinion on policies in general : No. Every single policy on, "he did this, *lists policy*, time to lynch him" is stupid, plain and simple. Let's get smarter and start playing this game right, with case-by-case analysis.

On December 23 2011 13:58 GiygaS wrote:
I used to agree with LaL, but now it seems like a very shaky idea to me. What if we have a blue that lies to save himself? What if we have a green that's trying a gambit to draw out mafia? What if we have someone lie about their role to generate town discussion, later revealing they lied. I agree that LaL could be used on petty lies like excuses that contradict something someone has said before, but I disagree with Lynch ALL Liars.

Lynch all Lurkers is also terrible, as 100% of the time, when you lynch a lurker, a mafia member or the mafia as a whole will stray it to be a town member. This rule is basically asking to kill a townie.

I'm going to conclude with my general opinion on policies in general : No. Every single policy on, "he did this, *lists policy*, time to lynch him" is stupid, plain and simple. Let's get smarter and start playing this game right, with case-by-case analysis.

On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:
For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun

As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town.

And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary.

With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch?

On December 23 2011 17:47 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Lynching lurkers day 1 always results in hitting a townie, and people aren't really as divided on who to lynch as they could be, so there is less information to be gained from a lurker mislynch. It just doesn't make sense on Day 1. Let's deal with that problem when/if it comes up later.

Lynch all Liars is actually extremely mafia friendly. Contrary to popular belief, they don't need to lie. It means they can push townies much easier. (I was mafia in Steamship. Poor Chaoser.)
That is not to say that lying is ok, quite the opposite, but it should be a factor, not the leading cause.

Let's avoid policy lynches, it's too easy to end the discussion once a lynch candidate has been found, and if that person was up there because of policy, discussion is essentially minimalized.

Other things we should probably discuss-
Pressure voting: Pressure is fine, pressure voting doesn't accomplish much, and only serves to start a bandwagon that shouldn't exist until a proper case is formed. Voting should be reserved for people you explicitly believe to be scum. Pressure somebody, and then if they don't respond correctly, use that as part of the reasoning to throw your vote on them.

Tunnelling: I believe it to do more harm than good in many occasions, but it can be useful in getting scum-slips out of tunnelled scum. As long as the person is aware that they are tunnelling, and is willing to stop doing it to weigh in on other lynch candidates, it's fine.

Veterans: We should make people stand purely on the effort they put into this game. Taking a veteran meta into account only seems to have promoted sheeping in recent games.

On December 24 2011 00:40 Misder wrote:
Policy lynches stem from this: Townies have no reason to lurk or lie. Mafia can gain from lurking or lying.

On December 24 2011 00:49 Shraft wrote:

Naturally. But my point still stands, if someone looks very green, it is utterly retarded to lynch them because of some stupid policy.

On December 24 2011 01:31 Grackaroni wrote:

I don't think you can get a solid read off a lurking player but feel free to prove me wrong.

Fake role claims need to be lynched ASAP, I don't care if the player might have "looked" green before, it is anti-town so they shouldn't have done. Tthe risks of a fake roleclaim overweigh it's benefits. Hopefully discussing Lynch All Liars beforehand will make it clear to a townie that they shouldn't fake claim.

Let's leave the lurking and the lying to scum players.

On December 23 2011 23:39 Dirkzor wrote:


I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it!

Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you.

##Vote sephirotharg

On December 23 2011 13:59 GiygaS wrote:
And also, it's stupid to not get a lynch on day1 unless we have literally no leads. It's better to lynch a guy that we think is leaning scum, then not lynching anybody at all.

On December 23 2011 15:16 Misder wrote:
@Day1 Lynch- yes. ofc, that comes with scumhunting as well as potentially lynching lurkers.

On December 24 2011 03:38 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: GiygaS

No, you misinterpreted my post - I expected somebody to notice that part about me lurking long before they did - I didn't expect to get votes so early!

You see, mafia will tend to push for a mis-lynch day 1 - and I don't mind putting myself out there as a target, if it lures them out of hiding. So, anyone who has pushed for lynching me, consider yourself on notice.

And the last objection you have to me: my asking people about day 1 lynches did indeed generate discussion. See this post:



And this one:

On December 24 2011 00:34 Misder wrote:


Lynching lurkers may usually hit a townie, but it does a number of crucial things 1) Gives incentive for greens to participate 2a) Pressures mafia to post more 2b) Mafia posts more = More likely to make mistakes 2c) Mafia lurking is a normal strategy for a lot of players

Lynch all Liars is not mafia friendly. Fine, mafia don't need to lie to win, but they can (and they will if we eventually do a massclaim). Also, town doesn't need to lie either. Look at the tradeoffs: mafia MAY hit incorrectly, causes town to become confused, mafia also has incentive to lie. If people are allowed to lie, mafia has so many more strategies.

Pressure voting I like, but its up to the player. ofc you vote for someone you think is scum, not town. Bandwagons give a lot of information.

Tunnelling is up to the player. It's not usually effective unless you are skilled at it though from my experience.

Veterans, we don't have I'm pretty sure.

On December 24 2011 03:31 sephirotharg wrote:


That's all well and good - I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say here. In general, lurking isn't optimal play, not for town at any rate.

That said, you didn't actually provide any reason to vote for me here. You responded to my post, but gave no rationale as to why you placed your vote on me. Please do everyone the favor of explaining your actions.

On December 24 2011 03:56 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: Giygas

This is a game of circles within circles son, and you'd best step to that right quick.

Weird accent aside, I'm merely stating that I find you, Dirkzor, and Shraft rather suspicious for voting so early and pushing hard. I think it's rather obvious why I wrote "the thing about lurking" - to generate some discussion, allowing scum to reveal themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the three of you flips red - but we'll see.

On December 24 2011 03:38 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: GiygaS

No, you misinterpreted my post - I expected somebody to notice that part about me lurking long before they did - I didn't expect to get votes so early!

You see, mafia will tend to push for a mis-lynch day 1 - and I don't mind putting myself out there as a target, if it lures them out of hiding. So, anyone who has pushed for lynching me, consider yourself on notice.

And the last objection you have to me: my asking people about day 1 lynches did indeed generate discussion. See this post:



And this one:

On December 23 2011 20:32 Dirkzor wrote:
/confirmed

I agree with the no policy lynches.[1] Everything should be accounted for and done on a case by case basis. But with that said I don't like people lurking or lieing. Both things are something you learn as a child is bad - well maybe not lurking =) - and the mafia are the bad guys.

Do we have any veterans in this game? Given i've only followed a few games here on TL mafia I can't see any that spring out at a vet? Correct me if I'm wrong please. However I do believe that people should look at what happens in this game and judge on that. No reason to say "But sir, he was very good in..." When he have done shitall in this game and caused several mislynches.

This is my first game playing Mafia. That said, I will try not to sheep and try to make my own opinions. I WILL win this! =) (Hahaha no meta for you guys )[2]

About lynches and/or No lynches: I would rather lynch someone i might think is town to get a lynch then to get a no lynch. It gives information and it helps town.

On December 23 2011 23:39 Dirkzor wrote:


I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it!

Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you.

##Vote sephirotharg

On December 24 2011 07:06 sephirotharg wrote:
@ Grack

It's not something I consciously decide at the beginning of the game; it arises mainly due to circumstances and whatnot - for example, in about an hour or so I'll be gone until late tonight, so don't expect much from me later on. I'll be around for the lynch deadline, though, and I intend to be active in the game. I've kept this thread open and refreshing since day 1 started.

@ Shraft

I'm glad that I'm not the only one playing subtly. So far, most people are playing their cards close to their chest, so to speak. When I'm active, I play more fast and loose.

On December 24 2011 07:16 sephirotharg wrote:
A couple of questions:

For voting, need we specifically unvote? Or, if we merely vote for a different person, is it taken for granted that we unvoted the original vote?

Can the host/co-host please keep the player list up to date? I refer to it often, and it would be nice to have the reminder that hyshes has replaced Mattchew, for example.

And as a placeholder: ##Vote sephirotharg

On December 23 2011 23:47 Dirkzor wrote:
Also, it's been 12 hours since we started and several people have yet to post.

Mattchewhyshes
Shraft
minus_human (yeah one post saying you would be back in a few hours...)
EchelonTee
jaybrundage

Gogo!

We need more activity if we want to find scum. Otherwise it will be chaos come a few hours before lynch time!

On December 21 2011 08:54 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
4. You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game.

On December 24 2011 07:50 GiygaS wrote:
What do people think of Seph voting for himself? Cause I have no idea how to handle this :/

On December 24 2011 07:56 Shraft wrote:


You may not vote for yourself. It is clearly stated in the voting rules.

On December 21 2011 08:54 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
4. You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game.

On December 24 2011 08:02 sephirotharg wrote:
@ Shraft

Please re-read the rules. It explicitly states that you may vote for yourself. In fact, here's the quote:

On December 24 2011 08:05 sephirotharg wrote:
Whoops. I should recuse myself at this point from the game - modkill me please, and replace me. I didn't read the rules carefully enough, and edited one of my earlier posts to change some contradictory wording. Assuming hosts agree, I'll no longer be participating in this game for breaking the rules.

On December 24 2011 08:05 sephirotharg wrote:
Whoops. I should recuse myself at this point from the game - modkill me please, and replace me. I didn't read the rules carefully enough, and edited one of my earlier posts to change some contradictory wording. Assuming hosts agree, I'll no longer be participating in this game for breaking the rules.

On December 24 2011 08:10 Cyber_Cheese wrote:

Errr, that post was during signups, before the game actually started, so it's fine. You would get a warning first anyway.

On December 24 2011 08:10 Cyber_Cheese wrote:

Errr, that post was during signups, before the game actually started, so it's fine. You would get a warning first anyway.

On December 24 2011 07:54 Cyber_Cheese wrote:

One last piece of policy:
Do not use 'ploys' or 'traps' to bait scum members. If you choose to disregard this, at minimum have fully thought it out. This involves but is not limited to being able to prove that only a scum member would walk into it, and that only a scum member would react the way that the person did. Make sure the pros outweigh the cons, and be ready to prove it.

Intentionally making your self look scummy is an example of a 'bad' ploy, because good townies should be calling you out.
That said, it did help me two things I want to point out so far:




1) He agrees policy lynches are bad, then doubles back and votes someone for potentially lurking later on in the game.
2) Calling attention to his inexperience.

FoS

On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:
For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun

As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town.

And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary.

With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch?

On December 24 2011 03:25 sephirotharg wrote:
Well, I'm a bit surprised this didn't happen faster.

Shraft, what do you want me to say? I merely made a comment based on my tendencies - if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town.

Add to my case the fact that I've already acted pro-town, in generating discussion with the last part of my first post, and I'm not sure how you can justify voting for me.

On December 24 2011 03:31 sephirotharg wrote:

That's all well and good - I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say here. In general, lurking isn't optimal play, not for town at any rate.

That said, you didn't actually provide any reason to vote for me here. You responded to my post, but gave no rationale as to why you placed your vote on me. Please do everyone the favor of explaining your actions.

On December 24 2011 03:56 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: Giygas

This is a game of circles within circles son, and you'd best step to that right quick.

Weird accent aside, I'm merely stating that I find you, Dirkzor, and Shraft rather suspicious for voting so early and pushing hard. I think it's rather obvious why I wrote "the thing about lurking" - to generate some discussion, allowing scum to reveal themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the three of you flips red - but we'll see.

On December 24 2011 07:06 sephirotharg wrote:
@ Grack

It's not something I consciously decide at the beginning of the game; it arises mainly due to circumstances and whatnot - for example, in about an hour or so I'll be gone until late tonight, so don't expect much from me later on. I'll be around for the lynch deadline, though, and I intend to be active in the game. I've kept this thread open and refreshing since day 1 started.

@ Shraft

I'm glad that I'm not the only one playing subtly. So far, most people are playing their cards close to their chest, so to speak. When I'm active, I play more fast and loose.

On December 24 2011 08:08 Shraft wrote:


I believe that mods can see your edits, so they should be able to edit in the original message. I do however find it strange that you're re-reading your own posts and looking for contradictions. Why would you worry about some contradictive wording if you're town?

On December 24 2011 08:14 sephirotharg wrote:
Because I don't desire to appear mafia? If I'm town, the last thing I'd want to do is contradict myself, so it seems natural to me to re-read my posts.

On December 24 2011 08:28 sephirotharg wrote:
I'll answer the criticisms leveled at me once a mod/host rules on my editing my post, assuming I'm still in the game. I'd rather not be at this point, though.

On December 21 2011 08:54 Mr. Wiggles wrote:

Editing:
Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be modkilled.

On December 24 2011 08:02 Shraft wrote:
I realised it because I saw a lock on his portrait. He made a /in-post you know.

On December 24 2011 08:28 sephirotharg wrote:
I'll answer the criticisms leveled at me once a mod/host rules on my editing my post, assuming I'm still in the game. I'd rather not be at this point, though.

On December 24 2011 07:16 sephirotharg wrote:
A couple of questions:

For voting, need we specifically unvote? Or, if we merely vote for a different person, is it taken for granted that we unvoted the original vote?

Can the host/co-host please keep the player list up to date? I refer to it often, and it would be nice to have the reminder that hyshes has replaced Mattchew, for example.

And as a placeholder: ##Vote sephirotharg

On December 24 2011 09:47 Misder wrote:
The sephirotharg bandwagon is pretty stupid imo. I think it's pretty clear that he's noobtelling.

##Vote: jaybrundage
Although early, not saying anything really in his two posts. Also seems to want to jump on the easy bandwagon. Compared to his posts in Student Mafia, pretty similar style.

RE: GiygaS No, you misinterpreted my post - I expected somebody to notice that part about me lurking long before they did - I didn't expect to get votes so early!

You see, mafia will tend to push for a mis-lynch day 1 - and I don't mind putting myself out there as a target, if it lures them out of hiding. So, anyone who has voted for me, consider yourself on notice.

And the last objection you have to me: my asking people about day 1 lynches did indeed generate discussion. See this post:



And this one:

On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote:
For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun

As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town.

And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary.

With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch?

On December 24 2011 03:25 sephirotharg wrote:
Well, I'm a bit surprised this didn't happen faster.

Shraft, what do you want me to say? I merely made a comment based on my tendencies - if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town.

Add to my case the fact that I've already acted pro-town, in generating discussion with the last part of my first post, and I'm not sure how you can justify voting for me.

On December 24 2011 03:38 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: GiygaS

No, you misinterpreted my post - I expected somebody to notice that part about me lurking long before they did - I didn't expect to get votes so early!

You see, mafia will tend to push for a mis-lynch day 1 - and I don't mind putting myself out there as a target, if it lures them out of hiding. So, anyone who has pushed for lynching me, consider yourself on notice.

On December 24 2011 08:14 sephirotharg wrote:
Because I don't desire to appear mafia? If I'm town, the last thing I'd want to do is contradict myself, so it seems natural to me to re-read my posts.

On December 24 2011 09:47 Misder wrote:
The sephirotharg bandwagon is pretty stupid imo. I think it's pretty clear that he's noobtelling.

##Vote: jaybrundage
Although early, not saying anything really in his two posts. Also seems to want to jump on the easy bandwagon. Compared to his posts in Student Mafia, pretty similar style.

On December 24 2011 03:38 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: GiygaS

No, you misinterpreted my post - I expected somebody to notice that part about me lurking long before they did - I didn't expect to get votes so early!

You see, mafia will tend to push for a mis-lynch day 1 - and I don't mind putting myself out there as a target, if it lures them out of hiding. So, anyone who has pushed for lynching me, consider yourself on notice.

And the last objection you have to me: my asking people about day 1 lynches did indeed generate discussion. See this post:



And this one:

On December 24 2011 08:28 sephirotharg wrote:

I'll answer the criticisms leveled at me once a mod/host rules on my editing my post, assuming I'm still in the game. I'd rather not be at this point, though.

On December 24 2011 08:00 sephirotharg wrote:
@ Giygas

It's just a placeholder vote. The rules say voting is mandatory, and I'd rather not get modkilled for forgetting to vote, so by preemptively voting I preclude that possibility. By voting for myself, I reveal nothing about my thoughts on other players.

On December 24 2011 08:14 sephirotharg wrote:
Because I don't desire to appear mafia? If I'm town, the last thing I'd want to do is contradict myself, so it seems natural to me to re-read my posts.

On December 23 2011 15:57 minus_human wrote:
/Confirmed, have to go now, will be back in a couple of hours.

Your first post comes across as timid and making excuses for further down the track. Saying “I’m not skilled” only serves to devalue your opinion, which is something that no townie wants to do. It is however something that mafia wants to do, if he plans on flying under the radar.

Your problem with lynching all liars is that it ‘narrows town focus’ too much. I disagree; someone caught lying to the town deserves all the scrutiny they get. I feel as though you are giving yourself an out in the event that you are caught lying later on.

Lastly, your point on lurkers is just flat out questionable. If you didn’t have the time to devote to playing this game, then why did you sign up? As you can tell, there are several people who missed out that want your spot. You finish by tacking on some napkin math about how many days we have before lylo, which is unnecessary on page 4 when the game started on page 3. Its entirely fluff, discussing worst-case scenario’s on the first day is pointless and only serves as a distraction from us doing our jobs, catching scum.

Your second and third posts are also causes for concern. In your second post you state “if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town” in response to Shraft prodding you about your lurking intentions. Then in your next post, 6 minutes later, you say, “In general, lurking isn’t optimal play, not for town at any rate”. This just screams inconsistent. You claim your play style is pro-town, and then dismiss your play style as not optimal for town only 6 minutes later.

After demeaning Giygas by implying that you know something he doesn’t (interesting tactic for someone claiming to be “unskilled” in their first post), you claim that you think it’s ‘rather obvious’ as to why you are doing what you are doing. This just screams cop-out, you weren’t expecting all the heat you’re getting from your first few posts and now you are trying to rationalise it all as ‘generating discussion’.

In your last post (as of the time of writing this) you announce your intentions to return to lurking until near the deadline so ‘don’t expect much form me later on’, so… you don’t plan on defending yourself after all of this?

Your message to Shraft: “I’m glad I’m not the only one playing subtly” again just stinks of cop-out.

Now that the PBP is over, I’m just going to be honest. You claim unskilled and then act like you are ‘laying scum traps’ by being subtle. You announce your intentions to lurk, which does nothing to help this town. Your play has been nothing but anti-town since your first post. Don’t lurk, get back here and EXPLAIN your actions.

**And now that I’ve refreshed the thread, you’ve voted for yourself… AND edited “contradictory statements” out of one of your posts. I really wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the shoe fits here.

On December 24 2011 08:23 Shraft wrote:
If you're town, you should be focusing on finding scum rather than looking innocent yourself. It stands out to me because generally scum players are a lot more careful with what they say, and make damn sure that they don't contradict themselves or stick their neck out in any other way. Townies don't think as much about how they word their posts, but to mafia it comes naturally.

On December 24 2011 09:58 jaybrundage wrote:
Dont you think its weird that Sephirotharg instead of defending himself that he just leaves? And the votes for himself just not to get modkilled however he knows people are voting for him but he ignores it. He is much more likly to be lynched at this point.

The part where he edited a post to appear innocent is pretty much nailing him the coffin. A townie would not have to be so conscious of his posts because he has nothing to hide.

He then states at this point he would rather not play the game. He doesn't want to play the game because hes mafia that got caught day one. Kinda sucks but pretty good for town dont ya think.

On December 24 2011 10:23 EchelonTee wrote:
Was sister's birthday yesterday and went out last night, time to get on this.

On seph:

Interesting how seph is against policy lynches, as they could be easily used as a case on him. Self admitting lurking, then later claims he did this on purpose to see if it would arouse attention? Wat?

Note how this post really doesn't advance discussion, especially his last paragraph; it sounds longer he is being analytical with his reasoning but all he is doing is stating the obvious, that we need day 1 lynch is a forgone conclusion. However this I'd still early the day, seph gets more suspicious/weird as we move on.

Acting smug about doing something scummy, as though you're being actually a super sneaky pro-town? Seems like Betty poor backpedaling to me. Pointing out your negative tendencies just emphasizes that you are anti town, but trying to present it as though its no big deal. there is little reason to state this from a town perspective; you are just giving yourself an excuse for bad play and/or scum play. I and others already noted that you haven't generated any good discussion, so at this point your case is looking worse.

More backpedaling with the justification for lurking. Very faulty logic, trying to claim people who are calling out your poor behavior are suspicious... For noticing that you are highly suspicious? No one is buying it. At this point I suspect this was a terribad GF gambit.

This sealed the case for me. Seph's defenses have positively become shorter and shadier. If your were town, your would have no reason to fear being scrutinized for bullshit unless a) you're a terribad townie who is disrupting play, or b) scummy scum. There is little backing up what you have said. Voting for self = just plain weird, shows that you don't have a case on ANYONE else, if you had any way to defend yourself, your vote and your reasoning would be the way... And you have shown that you have no defense.

On December 24 2011 13:08 Grackaroni wrote:

You've become too inconsistent. At the start of the game you downplayed yourself as a lurker and a bad player. You later defended yourself using the above quote claiming that it was good play, it helped you lure scum out of hiding, and that you don't mind putting yourself out as a target.
You've taken some pressure and now all of a sudden you don't even want to play the game anymore?
That doesn't match with your earlier statement.

You should be using the information you've gathered with your "I'm a bad player and a lurker" trap to help expose the scum team. Instead you've already gotten a defeatist attitude.

Why wouldn't you want to give us your reads? You should be giving out information to help the town, especially because your about to be lynched... there is no alignment where it would be beneficial for you to not try to defend yourself and giving us what your thinking helps the town.

It is actually good to appear as townish as possible for both town and scum, but for somebody with as limited time as yourself you should be prioritizing reading other people's filters over your own.

As scum you could still try to wiggle your way out of the lynch. instead you put a placeholder vote on yourself EVEN THOUGH you said that you would be here before the deadline. You edit a post EVEN THOUGH you said you read the rules after people said you couldn't self vote. I think it's entirely possible that your play at the start of the game was so suspicious that now the mafia decided to bus you, that's my best explanation for why you've given up and are even asking to be modkilled. I hope that's not the case because you can't try to get modkilled to help your team.

On December 24 2011 08:14 sephirotharg wrote:
Because I don't desire to appear mafia? If I'm town, the last thing I'd want to do is contradict myself, so it seems natural to me to re-read my posts.

On December 24 2011 14:50 sephirotharg wrote:
@ Grackaroni

Explain to me where I said mafia are inconsistent.

On December 24 2011 13:27 sephirotharg wrote:
Honestly, you're reading too much into it. I actually am not skilled at this game (as you can tell), and to be honest there are situations where one might want one's opinion devalued, if one is a power role for example and desires to be less of a target. I'm not actuated by that motive in this particular case; I'm just a relative noob at mafia, and I said so in an attempt to be honest,

This critique of me stems from your misunderstanding of my original post. I have the time to play, I am actively playing, not lurking, and therefore my play style is rather pro-town. If I were to lurk, then my play style would be more mafia oriented - that is both what I contend now and what I meant in my other post.

As I've explained earlier, voting for myself as a placeholder was merely because I didn't want to expose any of my feelings on other players at that time - I prefer to reserve my judgments for later on. The contradictory statement was merely me saying that I didn't want votes on myself, then later in the same post saying that I was watching anyone who voted for me. After reading it over, I realized it sounded dumb and contradictory, so I changed it. Re-read both posts for yourself if you don't believe me.

I announced my intentions to go on a trip I'd planned for a few days - not to lurk. My message to Shraft was rather dumb, thinking over it. It came out all wrong, and I'm sorry.

On December 24 2011 14:00 sephirotharg wrote:
Again, I did not admit to lurking this game, merely stated that sometimes I play that way. This game is the opposite for me. And frankly, self-preservation is a natural instinct - who wouldn't be against something that could be used to kill them? We were speaking in the theoretical, and my thoughts generally are against both types of policy lynch, for reasons that encompass both self-preservation and other thoughts about their helpfulness.

No. They are suspicious for pushing for a mis-lynch - as lynching me surely would be. Noticing the line about lurking is exactly what I intended to be noticed, in the hopes of having some of the mafia pursue what seems like an easy lynch. I was attempting to scumhunt, and it didn't work quite as I hoped.

On December 24 2011 14:21 sephirotharg wrote:
At the risk of sounding pretentious, I give you this quote: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines" - Ralph Waldo Emerson. Relying on consistency as your argument is weak - it discounts the illogic that pervades the human mind. Okay, done with that rant.

I can think of several roles in which it would be beneficial - perhaps not in this game, but they do exist. Semantics aside, I never said that I would not ever share my thoughts, merely that I wanted to hold them for a more opportune time. With nearly a day left, that time is not now. And my defense is this post, as well as several others.

The bottom line is this: I am not a mafia. (shades of Nixon, eh?)

On December 24 2011 19:33 Shraft wrote:
However, he did point out one thing, namely that his play might be more in line with that of a newer/unskilled player.

On December 23 2011 23:39 Dirkzor wrote:


I bolded what i found strange. You already state that you will be lurking. Early in game you want people to feel its okay that you lurk. No Mr. I won't allow it!

Yes life gets in the way but you should make up for it when time permits. In that way people won't feel you are lurking if you have provided enough to talk about when you actually have the time. We all need to eat and sleep (work?) but if you don't carry your weight we don't need you.

##Vote sephirotharg

On December 24 2011 07:46 Dirkzor wrote:


I do feel I gave a reason, but since english isn't my first language I'll try again.

You are preemptivly excusing yourself for lurking. If people have the mindset that "Oh seph is lurking because thats what he does" you might try to get away with lurking later in the game. You could also point out later that you already said you would lurk. And I don't like that.

I would say that my vote wasn't intended to get you lynched. Just spur some discussion - which it did.



I did not find it obvious why you wrote it. It did start some discussion but only because I (and others) noticed how silly it was to write. I'll keep my vote on you for now for the lack of better choices...

On December 24 2011 00:15 Shraft wrote:
Also, I don't like that sephirotharg explains in his first that he "sometimes lurks". From my experience, most of the times when people make preemptive excuses, they're mafia. If he was a townie, he wouldn't worry about looking scummy later on if he had some IRL task that he needs to do. Furthermore, I don't like how he starts his post with "I'm not skilled, but it's still fun " simply because it's another preemptive measure.

On December 24 2011 02:17 Shraft wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I dislike sephirotharg's post. I am going to put my vote on him until I hear what he has to say.
##Vote sephirotharg

On December 24 2011 03:28 GiygaS wrote:
On Sephiroth (goddamn you were hard to beat in Kingdom Hearts 2 ), I think his post is definitely scummy, and I'm placing my FoS on him, but I am not lynching him yet. I want to see more than one post out of him to decide if I want to lynch him, as I don't believe one singular post should ever be the reason someone is lynched unless it is really extremely crazy. I'm looking forward to his defense and responses to future questions I ask of him

On December 24 2011 03:30 GiygaS wrote:
Ninja'd.

First of all, you expected to be voted on early? A town would never have that tendency.

You made a comment on your tendencies that just sparks excuses for yourself later on down the road, that's NOT pro-town.

Your last sentence didn't really "generate discussion", as that info was used as a footnote to other people's posts already.

##Vote sephirotharg

On December 24 2011 07:57 jaybrundage wrote:
Hey guys,

Sorry for not being to active. Internet is a commodity not always provided at my families house.

Ok lets get started. On policy lynches i think that there fine guidelines for how we should act and at the same time we should not follow them blindly and be the main reason we lynch someone.

Onto the good stuff. I think that the sephirotharg case is an interesting one. I do find his first post suspicious.

Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency.

I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest. You know people think your suspicious if not just plain scum. Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that.

##Vote sephirotharg

Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something

On December 24 2011 08:19 Adam4167 wrote:
Sephirotharg:



Your first post comes across as timid and making excuses for further down the track. Saying “I’m not skilled” only serves to devalue your opinion, which is something that no townie wants to do. It is however something that mafia wants to do, if he plans on flying under the radar.

Your problem with lynching all liars is that it ‘narrows town focus’ too much. I disagree; someone caught lying to the town deserves all the scrutiny they get. I feel as though you are giving yourself an out in the event that you are caught lying later on.

Lastly, your point on lurkers is just flat out questionable. If you didn’t have the time to devote to playing this game, then why did you sign up? As you can tell, there are several people who missed out that want your spot. You finish by tacking on some napkin math about how many days we have before lylo, which is unnecessary on page 4 when the game started on page 3. Its entirely fluff, discussing worst-case scenario’s on the first day is pointless and only serves as a distraction from us doing our jobs, catching scum.





Your second and third posts are also causes for concern. In your second post you state “if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town” in response to Shraft prodding you about your lurking intentions. Then in your next post, 6 minutes later, you say, “In general, lurking isn’t optimal play, not for town at any rate”. This just screams inconsistent. You claim your play style is pro-town, and then dismiss your play style as not optimal for town only 6 minutes later.



After demeaning Giygas by implying that you know something he doesn’t (interesting tactic for someone claiming to be “unskilled” in their first post), you claim that you think it’s ‘rather obvious’ as to why you are doing what you are doing. This just screams cop-out, you weren’t expecting all the heat you’re getting from your first few posts and now you are trying to rationalise it all as ‘generating discussion’.



In your last post (as of the time of writing this) you announce your intentions to return to lurking until near the deadline so ‘don’t expect much form me later on’, so… you don’t plan on defending yourself after all of this?

Your message to Shraft: “I’m glad I’m not the only one playing subtly” again just stinks of cop-out.


Now that the PBP is over, I’m just going to be honest. You claim unskilled and then act like you are ‘laying scum traps’ by being subtle. You announce your intentions to lurk, which does nothing to help this town. Your play has been nothing but anti-town since your first post. Don’t lurk, get back here and EXPLAIN your actions.



**And now that I’ve refreshed the thread, you’ve voted for yourself… AND edited “contradictory statements” out of one of your posts. I really wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the shoe fits here.

##Vote sephirotharg

On December 24 2011 10:23 EchelonTee wrote:
Was sister's birthday yesterday and went out last night, time to get on this.

On seph:



Interesting how the seph is against policy lynches, as they could be easily used as a case on him. Self admitting lurking, then later claims he did this on purpose to see if it would arouse attention? Wat?

Note how this post really doesn't advance discussion, especially his last paragraph; it sounds longer he is being analytical with his reasoning but all he is doing is stating the obvious, that we need day 1 lynch is a forgone conclusion. However this I'd still early the day, seph gets more suspicious/weird as we move on.



Acting smug about doing something scummy, as though you're being actually a super sneaky pro-town? Seems like Betty poor backpedaling to me. Pointing out your negative tendencies just emphasizes that you are anti town, but trying to present it as though its no big deal. there is little reason to state this from a town perspective; you are just giving yourself an excuse for bad play and/or scum play. I and others already noted that you haven't generated any good discussion, so at this point your case is looking worse.



More backpedaling with the justification for lurking. Very faulty logic, trying to claim people who are calling out your poor behavior are suspicious... For noticing that you are highly suspicious? No one is buying it. At this point I suspect this was a terribad GF gambit.



This sealed the case for me. Seph's defenses have positively become shorter and shadier. If your were town, your would have no reason to fear being scrutinized for bullshit unless a) you're a terribad townie who is disrupting play, or b) scummy scum. There is little backing up what you have said. Voting for self = just plain weird, shows that you don't have a case on ANYONE else, if you had any way to defend yourself, your vote and your reasoning would be the way... And you have shown that you have no defense.

that, coupled with your defeatist mentality means you're either faulty townie with a lynch, or scum.

##Vote sephirotharg

On December 24 2011 22:13 Dirkzor wrote:
I'll be gone for the rest of the day. We europeans celebrate christmas the evening of the 24th. I'll try to sneak away from the fantastic food to consolidate my vote in order to get a lynch - might just be a quick skimming trough the thread.

I wouldn't mind a Seph lynch but i just don't like him to be the only target of the day. I wouldn't mind seeing jay hang either - thus my vote on him.

minus_human still havent contributed which I really want him to! A few hours is apparently a day or so. Maybe he wanted to write days instead of hours....

could we get the Zbot going? Its harder and harder to follow where the votes are at

On December 24 2011 07:57 jaybrundage wrote:
Hey guys,

Sorry for not being to active. Internet is a commodity not always provided at my families house.[1]

Ok lets get started. On policy lynches i think that there fine guidelines for how we should act and at the same time we should not follow them blindly and be the main reason we lynch someone.

Onto the good stuff. I think that the sephirotharg case is an interesting one. I do find his first post suspicious.

Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency. [2]

I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest. You know people think your suspicious if not just plain scum. Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that. [3]

##Vote sephirotharg

Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. [4] Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something

On December 24 2011 09:58 jaybrundage wrote:
Hm I find it interesting that you choice to vote for me.

The Sephirotharg so called bandwagon is going so well because hes had some huge scum tells. If you dont realize this then you should reread his posts. I stated why i think hes scummy.

You state its stupid but please do explain that. Dont you think its weird that Sephirotharg instead of defending himself that he just leaves? And the votes for himself just not to get modkilled however he knows people are voting for him but he ignores it. He is much more likly to be lynched at this point.[4]

The part where he edited a post to appear innocent is pretty much nailing him the coffin. A townie would not have to be so conscious of his posts because he has nothing to hide.

He then states at this point he would rather not play the game. He doesn't want to play the game because hes mafia that got caught day one. Kinda sucks but pretty good for town dont ya think.[5]

And if you want to make a case on me go for it.

So far you posted everything about policy lynches which is a great discussion starter. You have to move on sooner or later.
You then vote for me with practically nothing. You claim i haven't contributed but all you talked about was policy lynches.

On December 24 2011 10:02 jaybrundage wrote:
T_T it wasn't a sheep vote this guys scummy as hell.[6]

On December 24 2011 07:57 jaybrundage wrote:
Hey guys,

Sorry for not being to active. Internet is a commodity not always provided at my families house.

Ok lets get started. On policy lynches i think that there fine guidelines for how we should act and at the same time we should not follow them blindly and be the main reason we lynch someone.1

Onto the good stuff. I think that the sephirotharg case is an interesting one. I do find his first post suspicious.

Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency.2

I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest. You know people think your suspicious if not just plain scum. Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that.3

##Vote sephirotharg

Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something4

On December 24 2011 09:37 jaybrundage wrote:
Alright sep you just got a warning. As of now i see as scum and you have a lot of votes on you. Plz address these concerns.

And it would be great for you to give your scum reads. As we have about 2 and a half hours till deadline.

If your town tell use everything you know so that we have tools to get scum. Give us everything you got this is the time you can change the vote. Now or never.

Oh and in case my nonbolded vote doesnt count.

##Vote Sephirotharg

On December 24 2011 09:58 jaybrundage wrote:
The Sephirotharg so called bandwagon is going so well because hes had some huge scum tells. If you dont realize this then you should reread his posts. I stated why i think hes scummy.

You state its stupid but please do explain that. Dont you think its weird that Sephirotharg instead of defending himself that he just leaves? And the votes for himself just not to get modkilled however he knows people are voting for him but he ignores it. He is much more likly to be lynched at this point.

The part where he edited a post to appear innocent is pretty much nailing him the coffin. A townie would not have to be so conscious of his posts because he has nothing to hide.

He then states at this point he would rather not play the game. He doesn't want to play the game because hes mafia that got caught day one. Kinda sucks but pretty good for town dont ya think.

And if you want to make a case on me go for it.

So far you posted everything about policy lynches which is a great discussion starter. You have to move on sooner or later.
You then vote for me with practically nothing. You claim i haven't contributed but all you talked about was policy lynches.

On jay, let's just say its a gut read, and I'm feeling very good about it. I do only have 4 posts to work with right now. We can look at them though.

Post 1
"Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency."
This is pretty much the discussion between the Lynch all Lurkers policy lynch. However, framing it so that one side = scum is really not logical. Otherwise, jay is saying that GygaS and Cyber_Cheese are scum as well.

"I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest."
The "to be honest" part is something minor, but I don't like it. It's like saying, "I'm scum but even to me its really weird."

"Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that."
This isn't going anywhere, and there's no point to it. It's just saying, placeholder vote could be scum or town.

"Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something"
A fake attempt to generate more discussion when in reality, doesn't do anything.

Post 2
"Plz address these concerns."
Same as before.

"If your town tell use everything you know so that we have tools to get scum."
Basically, bluefishing.

Post 3
Compare this line: "Hm I find it interesting that you choice to vote for me." with one of his Student Mafia post ("But im curious how did i go from not posting quality stuff to being mafia.") Surprisingly similar.

Also similar: same post from above- "And if you want to make a case on me go for it." and another post from Student Mafia ("I dont mind if you think im scummy. Just make a real case for it.")

"So far you posted everything about policy lynches which is a great discussion starter. You have to move on sooner or later.
You then vote for me with practically nothing. You claim i haven't contributed but all you talked about was policy lynches."
Attacking me as defense, basically saying "Misder isn't qualified to attack me because he only talked about policy lynches". We can compare this to him and Adam and xtfffc in Student Mafia, although in that case, he did attack Adam first. Yet another post in Student Mafia ("If you wanna call me me scummy come out and say it im done with people soft claiming someones scum with out a real reason behind it. I honestly think that bullshit like that is not going to help the town.")

Although there is one good thing for him- he's not trying to act noobish like he did in the beginning of Student Mafia.

On December 24 2011 21:18 Dirkzor wrote:


jaybrundage:


At this point several people was after seph. He was acting weird and voting for himself. An easy target to jump on and thats exactly what jay did. Nothing new added to the case. This is the point where my alarm bells started ringing. Why is everyone going for this kid? I find this very suspicious...


To conclude this wall of text I find Jay scummy. He jumped the wagon early with no really evidence or thought behind it other then what others had already pointed out. When misder goes after him he quickly counter attacks pointing out how misder havn't done anything but discuss policy lynches.

Misder later case on him is really solid and i agree with most of it.

Edit before posting: I seem to have missed that Grackaroni have also voted for him. Wont go into his posts now. Also while writing hyshes have voted for him aswell. So now the number is at 9 votes on seph.

This wagon is going to easy at the moment. Either scum have already given up on seph and is then pushing him hard or we found a very bad townie. I'm leaning bad townie.

##Unvote
##Vote jaybrundage

On December 25 2011 01:02 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Alright, so I took a look at Jaybrundage's filter-





1) I'm sorry, I haven't been around much
2) Lurking for any reason is not acceptable
That seems like a mighty fine double-standard right there.

Jay-
Would you call me a lurker? I think the reason that Sep said we should not lynch lurkers is because he likes to lurk sometimes correct. That in it self seems bad for the town. If you like to lurk dont play as others have suggested.

3, 4) About half of your reasoning is devoted to talking about how voting for yourself makes no sense as either side, but somehow this works out to be a scum tell?

Jay-
I think its a distraction. Sep had no reason to vote for himself unless he has a short term memory loss. Thats it. And in that case he should not be playing mafia in the first place.
I think that making a self vote in that time served only to confuse people. And confusing people is mafia agenda.

5) Mistakes happen. It would suck as a townie too. How does a townies reaction differ from a scum reaction? Can you explain how this is a scum tell?

Jay-
But a townie would know there in the right. And would be able to prove it with coherent logically argument. Considering my situation i would hope i can be open and show everyone that my goals are all town orientated.

6) After adding nothing to the discussion, you brought up null reads and pre-mentioned points as your logic behind putting down a vote.

Jay-
This is up to your discretion. I think that sep is a good lynch because of his play. It speaks for it self.

The double standard and lack of good logic in placing his vote make him look eager to have his vote down on any bandwagon.
##Vote Jaydrundage

On December 25 2011 02:22 sephirotharg wrote:
Well, you guys wanted my strongest case, so here it is:

Surprise! It's Jaybrundage.

Let's go through this step by step.



1: Interesting how his first substantive post opens with a justification for his seeming lurking. He continues on to say they are "good guidelines" but backs off from this stance by saying they shouldn't be the reason we lynch somebody. I've been accused of preemptively defending my lurking; well, I'm leveling the same charge at Jay.

Jay-
I dont back off at all. I said there are guidelines and thats that. It means something to follow loosely. We should not lynch someone solely on the basis of a policy lynch there should be scum tells as well.

2: Soft-claiming that lurking is ok is anti-town, right? Then why did you just try to excuse your own lurking? That's anti-town behavior as well.

Jay-
There is a big difference to saying don't lynch lurkers guys I'm a lurker as you said. And me apologizing for not being here since the start of the game. I NEVER said it was ok to lurk that's why i said i was sorry.

3: You say that there's no reason for a mafia to vote for their self. Then, realizing that you just implied that I was a townie, you back up and try to posit that there's no reason for a townie to vote for their self. Then you just give up and say you are confused. How does any of this help the town? You argue that my self-vote was a distraction but it's you who attempts to distract the town with this nonsense paragraph.

Jay- I have stated multiply times i think it was a distraction. There was no reason for you to vote for your self. It only serves to confuse people and make people second guess there own vote. Giygas stated himself that he had no idea what to think of it.

4: "I seem to want to be voting for the way I'm acting?" What does that even mean? And then you appeal to me to do something, anything at all. Why? You'd prefer for others to be active, if you are mafia. If I'm doing all the talking, you don't have to contribute.

Jay-
It means you have been acting scummy. I want you to be active because a active town is a healthy town that can find mafia.
I would prefer everyone to be active so we can catch scum when they slip.

This post is basically a nothing post. Jay tries to excuse his own lurking (and then lurks rather a lot after this, having only 2 additional posts of any length. For a game that's almost 2 days old at this point that is a paltry contribution) and then confuses the issue by saying that my actions make no sense. He reiterates reasons others have laid out for my post seeming scummy but fails to expand on those reasons.



I received a warning. Thanks for stating the obvious. Then you say I had "a lot of votes" on myself. At this point, the votes numbered 4, one of which was my own placeholder. 3 votes is "a lot?" No, you just want me to perceive it that way so I panic and mess up. This is further compounded by the fact that you say we have only 2 hours left - an outright lie. Could you have made a mistake? Certainly. But does it benefit you to put more pressure on me? Yes. And then you conclude by asking me for my scum reads - when you yourself haven't contributed at all beyond restating what other people have said.

Jay-
I wanted to get your post asap because i thought we only had two hours. I turned out to be mistaken. Why would i lie about the deadline. That would just be plain dumb. I gave my scum read and its you. You defense was lackluster. It at some points didn't even make sense. Quoting Emerson seems like a stretch.



And here you just restate what has already been said. Both of your main points against me have already been noted by this time, by Shraft and Adam a few posts above yours. And then you attack Misder, even though his vote is obviously a pressure vote. You even acknowledge as much by saying "You then vote for me with practically nothing".

Jay-
You can see my defense of Misder above. I did want him to put a case we need cases and conversation.

You lurk, then make excuses for it. You distract the town from the actual issues, and merely restate points that have already been said. And you react aggressively when the flimsiest of votes is pushed against you. And you push for an early, not fully reasoned-out lynch. None of this behavior makes sense from a town perspective, but it is classic mafia play.

Jay-
I have not lurked. And i have not made excuses for it.
I have defensed my self thoroughly because i am not mafia. I have pushed your lynch because you are the scummiest person atm.


I have my doubts about others, most notably Shraft, but since Jay's response amounts to "it wasn't a sheep vote" he is my prime suspect at this point in time.

Jay-
This is VERYYY interesting. You previously said that you found Drikzor and Shraft suspicious which is down below HOWEVER you push onto me after seeing that other people are doing so. Ever since Drikzor came off your lynch wagon you dont even mention him. And you switch from Shraft who you though was suspicious to me.

On December 24 2011 03:56 sephirotharg wrote:
RE: Giygas

This is a game of circles within circles son, and you'd best step to that right quick.

Weird accent aside, I'm merely stating that I find you, Dirkzor, and Shraft rather suspicious for voting so early and pushing hard. I think it's rather obvious why I wrote "the thing about lurking" - to generate some discussion, allowing scum to reveal themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the three of you flips red - but we'll see.

On December 25 2011 05:23 GiygaS wrote:
Yeah I believe jay in his defense, I'm sticking with seph.

On December 25 2011 06:38 sephirotharg wrote:


Care to expand on that? Why do you believe Jay and not me? Lay out your reasoning, convince others. That's the town play.

Hypocrisy. The only times you have been active are 1) when you were pursuing my lynch and 2) when you yourself are the focus of scrutiny. Other than that, you have been lurking. You say you want an active town, and defy that with your actions. Are you really town then?

Poor grammar aside, this is an outright lie.

On December 25 2011 02:22 sephirotharg wrote:
Well, you guys wanted my strongest case, so here it is:

Surprise! It's Jaybrundage.

Let's go through this step by step.



1: Interesting how his first substantive post opens with a justification for his seeming lurking. He continues on to say they are "good guidelines" but backs off from this stance by saying they shouldn't be the reason we lynch somebody. I've been accused of preemptively defending my lurking; well, I'm leveling the same charge at Jay.

2: Soft-claiming that lurking is ok is anti-town, right? Then why did you just try to excuse your own lurking? That's anti-town behavior as well.

3: You say that there's no reason for a mafia to vote for their self. Then, realizing that you just implied that I was a townie, you back up and try to posit that there's no reason for a townie to vote for their self. Then you just give up and say you are confused. How does any of this help the town? You argue that my self-vote was a distraction but it's you who attempts to distract the town with this nonsense paragraph.

4: "I seem to want to be voting for the way I'm acting?" What does that even mean? And then you appeal to me to do something, anything at all. Why? You'd prefer for others to be active, if you are mafia. If I'm doing all the talking, you don't have to contribute.

This post is basically a nothing post. Jay tries to excuse his own lurking (and then lurks rather a lot after this, having only 2 additional posts of any length. For a game that's almost 2 days old at this point that is a paltry contribution) and then confuses the issue by saying that my actions make no sense. He reiterates reasons others have laid out for my post seeming scummy but fails to expand on those reasons.