EPTMr. Wiggles Mini Mafia I - Page 8
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
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EchelonTee
United States5205 Posts
On seph: On December 23 2011 13:35 sephirotharg wrote: For myself, I've never played mafia here on TL, but I've played a small amount on some other forums. I'm not skilled, but it's still fun  As for policy lynches, I'm against Lynch All Liars, only because it tends to lead to players narrowing their focuses too much - lynching someone, even if they are a liar, may not be the best idea for the town. And Lynch All Lurkers is also a bad idea, not the least because at times I am one . Same reason as before, with the added rationale that life gets in the way sometimes - papers, work, family and such all happen, and sometimes you can't devote the time necessary.With that said, doing some estimation, worst case scenario (assuming bad lynches and vig kills, with one vig, as well as all mafia kills), we have until day 3 to flip a red. Keeping that in mind, what say the people about a day 1 lynch? Interesting how the seph is against policy lynches, as they could be easily used as a case on him. Self admitting lurking, then later claims he did this on purpose to see if it would arouse attention? Wat? Note how this post really doesn't advance discussion, especially his last paragraph; it sounds longer he is being analytical with his reasoning but all he is doing is stating the obvious, that we need day 1 lynch is a forgone conclusion. However this I'd still early the day, seph gets more suspicious/weird as we move on. On December 24 2011 03:25 sephirotharg wrote: Well, I'm a bit surprised this didn't happen faster. Shraft, what do you want me to say? I merely made a comment based on my tendencies - if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town. Add to my case the fact that I've already acted pro-town, in generating discussion with the last part of my first post, and I'm not sure how you can justify voting for me. Acting smug about doing something scummy, as though you're being actually a super sneaky pro-town? Seems like Betty poor backpedaling to me. Pointing out your negative tendencies just emphasizes that you are anti town, but trying to present it as though its no big deal. there is little reason to state this from a town perspective; you are just giving yourself an excuse for bad play and/or scum play. I and others already noted that you haven't generated any good discussion, so at this point your case is looking worse. On December 24 2011 03:38 sephirotharg wrote: RE: GiygaS No, you misinterpreted my post - I expected somebody to notice that part about me lurking long before they did - I didn't expect to get votes so early! You see, mafia will tend to push for a mis-lynch day 1 - and I don't mind putting myself out there as a target, if it lures them out of hiding. So, anyone who has pushed for lynching me, consider yourself on notice. More backpedaling with the justification for lurking. Very faulty logic, trying to claim people who are calling out your poor behavior are suspicious... For noticing that you are highly suspicious? No one is buying it. At this point I suspect this was a terribad GF gambit. On December 24 2011 08:14 sephirotharg wrote: Because I don't desire to appear mafia? If I'm town, the last thing I'd want to do is contradict myself, so it seems natural to me to re-read my posts. This sealed the case for me. Seph's defenses have positively become shorter and shadier. If your were town, your would have no reason to fear being scrutinized for bullshit unless a) you're a terribad townie who is disrupting play, or b) scummy scum. There is little backing up what you have said. Voting for self = just plain weird, shows that you don't have a case on ANYONE else, if you had any way to defend yourself, your vote and your reasoning would be the way... And you have shown that you have no defense. that, coupled with your defeatist mentality means you're either faulty townie with a lynch, or scum. ##Vote sephirotharg | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5205 Posts
On December 24 2011 09:47 Misder wrote: The sephirotharg bandwagon is pretty stupid imo. I think it's pretty clear that he's noobtelling. ##Vote: jaybrundage Although early, not saying anything really in his two posts. Also seems to want to jump on the easy bandwagon. Compared to his posts in Student Mafia, pretty similar style. I don't follow, you are invoking meta off of two posts? State a stronger case please on jay, or why we shouldn't off seph. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5205 Posts
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Misder
United States1557 Posts
I've read Ver's analysis on Mafia XXX multiple times, and I know the way I was thinking when I was mafia. The first post is the only thing I read that is preemptive defense. 1) It's not even preemptive defense- all it is is saying lurking is natural 2) It's not the only post- nothing after that post seems the way I would play at all as scum. Just seems like a frustrated townie to me. 3) Similar to 2, his play is anti-town, but I highly doubt he's scum (for example, voting for yourself is anti-town, but difficult for scum to do; or leaving the game- thats anti-town, but something I would not expect scum to do). It's almost like he's not trying to be careful of what he's doing (besides the editing I guess) I'll let seph defend himself though. On jay, let's just say its a gut read, and I'm feeling very good about it. I do only have 4 posts to work with right now. We can look at them though. Post 1 "Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency." This is pretty much the discussion between the Lynch all Lurkers policy lynch. However, framing it so that one side = scum is really not logical. Otherwise, jay is saying that GygaS and Cyber_Cheese are scum as well. "I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest." The "to be honest" part is something minor, but I don't like it. It's like saying, "I'm scum but even to me its really weird." "Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that." This isn't going anywhere, and there's no point to it. It's just saying, placeholder vote could be scum or town. "Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something" A fake attempt to generate more discussion when in reality, doesn't do anything. Post 2 "Plz address these concerns." Same as before. "If your town tell use everything you know so that we have tools to get scum." Basically, bluefishing. Post 3 Compare this line: "Hm I find it interesting that you choice to vote for me." with one of his Student Mafia post ("But im curious how did i go from not posting quality stuff to being mafia.") Surprisingly similar. Also similar: same post from above- "And if you want to make a case on me go for it." and another post from Student Mafia ("I dont mind if you think im scummy. Just make a real case for it.") "So far you posted everything about policy lynches which is a great discussion starter. You have to move on sooner or later. You then vote for me with practically nothing. You claim i haven't contributed but all you talked about was policy lynches." Attacking me as defense, basically saying "Misder isn't qualified to attack me because he only talked about policy lynches". We can compare this to him and Adam and xtfffc in Student Mafia, although in that case, he did attack Adam first. Yet another post in Student Mafia ("If you wanna call me me scummy come out and say it im done with people soft claiming someones scum with out a real reason behind it. I honestly think that bullshit like that is not going to help the town.") Although there is one good thing for him- he's not trying to act noobish like he did in the beginning of Student Mafia. | ||
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Misder
United States1557 Posts
Post 4 "T_T it wasn't a sheep vote this guys scummy as hell." It pretty much was sheep- same analysis as others, though I actually don't mind that as much as the last part because my impression before was that he was not 100% certain that seph is scum, but now it's like "there's no way I'm not voting seph anymore". | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9832 Posts
On December 24 2011 03:38 sephirotharg wrote: RE: GiygaS No, you misinterpreted my post - I expected somebody to notice that part about me lurking long before they did - I didn't expect to get votes so early! You see, mafia will tend to push for a mis-lynch day 1 - and I don't mind putting myself out there as a target, if it lures them out of hiding. So, anyone who has pushed for lynching me, consider yourself on notice. And the last objection you have to me: my asking people about day 1 lynches did indeed generate discussion. See this post: And this one: On December 24 2011 08:28 sephirotharg wrote: I'll answer the criticisms leveled at me once a mod/host rules on my editing my post, assuming I'm still in the game. I'd rather not be at this point, though. You've become too inconsistent. At the start of the game you downplayed yourself as a lurker and a bad player. You later defended yourself using the above quote claiming that it was good play, it helped you lure scum out of hiding, and that you don't mind putting yourself out as a target. You've taken some pressure and now all of a sudden you don't even want to play the game anymore? That doesn't match with your earlier statement. You should be using the information you've gathered with your "I'm a bad player and a lurker" trap to help expose the scum team. Instead you've already gotten a defeatist attitude. On December 24 2011 08:00 sephirotharg wrote: @ Giygas It's just a placeholder vote. The rules say voting is mandatory, and I'd rather not get modkilled for forgetting to vote, so by preemptively voting I preclude that possibility. By voting for myself, I reveal nothing about my thoughts on other players. Why wouldn't you want to give us your reads? You should be giving out information to help the town, especially because your about to be lynched... there is no allignment where it would be beneficial for you to not try to defend yourself and giving us what your thinking helps the town. On December 24 2011 08:14 sephirotharg wrote: Because I don't desire to appear mafia? If I'm town, the last thing I'd want to do is contradict myself, so it seems natural to me to re-read my posts. It is actually good to appear as townish as possible for both town and scum, but for somebody with as limited time as yourself you should be prioritizing reading other people's filters over your own. As scum you could still try to wiggle your way out of the lynch. instead you put a placeholder vote on yourself EVEN THOUGH you said that you would be here before the deadline. You edit a post EVEN THOUGH you said you read the rules after people said you couldn't self vote. I think it's entirely possible that your play at the start of the game was so suspicious that now the mafia decided to bus you, that's my best explanation for why you've given up and are even asking to be modkilled. I hope that's not the case because you can't try to get modkilled to help your team. ##Vote: Sephirotharg | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9832 Posts
On December 23 2011 15:57 minus_human wrote: /Confirmed, have to go now, will be back in a couple of hours. Also kind of curious about what happened here. | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
I'll do my best to tackle people's concerns one by one, starting with Adam's post on page 7 (I'm not very skilled with TL's commenting system, so bear with me if things get wonky): Your first post comes across as timid and making excuses for further down the track. Saying “I’m not skilled” only serves to devalue your opinion, which is something that no townie wants to do. It is however something that mafia wants to do, if he plans on flying under the radar. Honestly, you're reading too much into it. I actually am not skilled at this game (as you can tell), and to be honest there are situations where one might want one's opinion devalued, if one is a power role for example and desires to be less of a target. I'm not actuated by that motive in this particular case; I'm just a relative noob at mafia, and I said so in an attempt to be honest, Your problem with lynching all liars is that it ‘narrows town focus’ too much. I disagree; someone caught lying to the town deserves all the scrutiny they get. I feel as though you are giving yourself an out in the event that you are caught lying later on. I agree with you that someone caught lying to the town deserves scrutiny; where I do not agree is that they automatically deserve lynching. Players are motivated by all sorts of wacky motives to make all sorts of zany plays, including lying. And if someone is a confirmed liar, the town can safely disregard them for the time being and focus on finding the other scum. At least, those are my feelings on the matter. In addition, why would I draw attention to my plan if I were mafia? If it really were my intention to lurk, and I were mafia, why would I out it so soon? I suppose you could chalk it up to my noobishness, but that would honestly be a rather silly play for a mafioso to make. Lastly, your point on lurkers is just flat out questionable. If you didn’t have the time to devote to playing this game, then why did you sign up? As you can tell, there are several people who missed out that want your spot. You finish by tacking on some napkin math about how many days we have before lylo, which is unnecessary on page 4 when the game started on page 3. Its entirely fluff, discussing worst-case scenario’s on the first day is pointless and only serves as a distraction from us doing our jobs, catching scum. I'll agree with you that my "napkin math" as you term it wasn't really necessary. But a distraction, I think not. And I never stated once that I "do not have the time to play this game". I did state that sometimes I lurk - however, I don't think I can be accused of that this game. In fact, this is one of the best times for me to play mafia - I'm done with school, on winter break and have little else to do for the most part. Your second and third posts are also causes for concern. In your second post you state “if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town” in response to Shraft prodding you about your lurking intentions. Then in your next post, 6 minutes later, you say, “In general, lurking isn’t optimal play, not for town at any rate”. This just screams inconsistent. You claim your play style is pro-town, and then dismiss your play style as not optimal for town only 6 minutes later. This critique of me stems from your misunderstanding of my original post. I have the time to play, I am actively playing, not lurking, and therefore my play style is rather pro-town. If I were to lurk, then my play style would be more mafia oriented - that is both what I contend now and what I meant in my other post. After demeaning Giygas by implying that you know something he doesn’t (interesting tactic for someone claiming to be “unskilled” in their first post), you claim that you think it’s ‘rather obvious’ as to why you are doing what you are doing. This just screams cop-out, you weren’t expecting all the heat you’re getting from your first few posts and now you are trying to rationalise it all as ‘generating discussion’. I'm not sure where you got the implication that I "know something he doesn't" - I never had any such intentions. I was merely pointing out the fact that there are layers to any mafia game of deception and such. And I certainly never demeaned him. As for your second point, I'm honestly not sure what to say to that. I honestly thought, after explaining my plan in my other post, that it was obvious why I did what I did. And, as a point of clarification, I didn't defend it as "generating discussion" so much as scumhunting. In your last post (as of the time of writing this) you announce your intentions to return to lurking until near the deadline so ‘don’t expect much form me later on’, so… you don’t plan on defending yourself after all of this? Your message to Shraft: “I’m glad I’m not the only one playing subtly” again just stinks of cop-out. Now that the PBP is over, I’m just going to be honest. You claim unskilled and then act like you are ‘laying scum traps’ by being subtle. You announce your intentions to lurk, which does nothing to help this town. Your play has been nothing but anti-town since your first post. Don’t lurk, get back here and EXPLAIN your actions. **And now that I’ve refreshed the thread, you’ve voted for yourself… AND edited “contradictory statements” out of one of your posts. I really wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the shoe fits here. I announced my intentions to go on a trip I'd planned for a few days - not to lurk. My message to Shraft was rather dumb, thinking over it. It came out all wrong, and I'm sorry. Aren't my actions in line with an unskilled player? Trying (and not succeeding as much as I had hoped) to lure out scum with an (admittedly) poorly executed plan. Seems less like scum and more like noob, to me. I never announced my intentions to lurk - that was a misinterpretation on your part. And don't make the mistake of thinking that you can run my life or determine what I do - virtually (in both senses) yelling at me to come back is rude and counter-productive. As I've explained earlier, voting for myself as a placeholder was merely because I didn't want to expose any of my feelings on other players at that time - I prefer to reserve my judgments for later on. The contradictory statement was merely me saying that I didn't want votes on myself, then later in the same post saying that I was watching anyone who voted for me. After reading it over, I realized it sounded dumb and contradictory, so I changed it. Re-read both posts for yourself if you don't believe me. And that's a wall of text, so I'll break this up into several posts. My next one will come in shortly. | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
On December 24 2011 08:23 Shraft wrote: If you're town, you should be focusing on finding scum rather than looking innocent yourself. It stands out to me because generally scum players are a lot more careful with what they say, and make damn sure that they don't contradict themselves or stick their neck out in any other way. Townies don't think as much about how they word their posts, but to mafia it comes naturally. That's a stylistic choice. I prefer to look innocent, in general, when I'm town. Survival is important to me because if I don't survive, I'm of no further use to the town. My contributions to the town this game are up for debate, of course, but still, with all the heat I was already taking I felt it prudent to look less scummy, not realizing until later that my action (namely editing my post) was in violation of the rules. | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
On December 24 2011 09:58 jaybrundage wrote: Dont you think its weird that Sephirotharg instead of defending himself that he just leaves? And the votes for himself just not to get modkilled however he knows people are voting for him but he ignores it. He is much more likly to be lynched at this point. The part where he edited a post to appear innocent is pretty much nailing him the coffin. A townie would not have to be so conscious of his posts because he has nothing to hide. He then states at this point he would rather not play the game. He doesn't want to play the game because hes mafia that got caught day one. Kinda sucks but pretty good for town dont ya think. I wanted to leave because I was screwing up the game badly for everyone, and felt that if I gave up my spot to another person they would do a better job. Since I haven't been modkilled, it's up to me to defend myself now. Voting for myself was already explained - it's merely to prevent instadeath if for some reason I forget or can't be here in time for the lynch, and voting for myself reveals nothing of my thoughts with regard to others, which is how I like to play. I keep my opinions of others to myself in the early stages of the phases. The editing has also been explained - I was already taking heat, and thought it best to appear as clean as possible. I know you will say it is because I am mafia; however, it merely arose out of a desire to stay alive and help the town. Believe what you will. I didn't want to play anymore because I thought someone else would do a better job - and I still think that. However, I'm still in this game so I might as well at least try. Regardless of what you think, I'm not mafia. | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
On December 24 2011 10:23 EchelonTee wrote: Was sister's birthday yesterday and went out last night, time to get on this. On seph: Interesting how seph is against policy lynches, as they could be easily used as a case on him. Self admitting lurking, then later claims he did this on purpose to see if it would arouse attention? Wat? Note how this post really doesn't advance discussion, especially his last paragraph; it sounds longer he is being analytical with his reasoning but all he is doing is stating the obvious, that we need day 1 lynch is a forgone conclusion. However this I'd still early the day, seph gets more suspicious/weird as we move on. Again, I did not admit to lurking this game, merely stated that sometimes I play that way. This game is the opposite for me. And frankly, self-preservation is a natural instinct - who wouldn't be against something that could be used to kill them? We were speaking in the theoretical, and my thoughts generally are against both types of policy lynch, for reasons that encompass both self-preservation and other thoughts about their helpfulness. And sure, I may not have advanced the discussion (though I would argue that I did), but the same can be said for a portion of the posts in this thread. Are you going to say that anyone not advancing the discussion is a mafia? As for the bit about the day 1 lynch, I've played scenarios in other forums where day 1 lynch was inadvisable - I merely thought I'd float the possibility here. It seems that TL Mafia encourages day 1 lynches, something that I was not aware of at the time of my original post. Acting smug about doing something scummy, as though you're being actually a super sneaky pro-town? Seems like Betty poor backpedaling to me. Pointing out your negative tendencies just emphasizes that you are anti town, but trying to present it as though its no big deal. there is little reason to state this from a town perspective; you are just giving yourself an excuse for bad play and/or scum play. I and others already noted that you haven't generated any good discussion, so at this point your case is looking worse. You say potato, I say potato...well, I guess it doesn't work as well in print, but my point remains: you say I was backpedaling, I say I was trying to execute a strategy (one which hasn't panned out exceptionally well, to this point, but still).I'm not sure how being honest about how I tend to play is anti-town - perhaps you could enlighten me. I merely thought I was providing information about myself, in the spirit of honesty that started with people linking their previous games. More backpedaling with the justification for lurking. Very faulty logic, trying to claim people who are calling out your poor behavior are suspicious... For noticing that you are highly suspicious? No one is buying it. At this point I suspect this was a terribad GF gambit. No. They are suspicious for pushing for a mis-lynch - as lynching me surely would be. Noticing the line about lurking is exactly what I intended to be noticed, in the hopes of having some of the mafia pursue what seems like an easy lynch. I was attempting to scumhunt, and it didn't work quite as I hoped. This sealed the case for me. Seph's defenses have positively become shorter and shadier. If your were town, your would have no reason to fear being scrutinized for bullshit unless a) you're a terribad townie who is disrupting play, or b) scummy scum. There is little backing up what you have said. Voting for self = just plain weird, shows that you don't have a case on ANYONE else, if you had any way to defend yourself, your vote and your reasoning would be the way... And you have shown that you have no defense. Shorter and shadier, eh? Then how do you explain away my veritable walls of text in defense of myself now? And you are assuming that all townies think as you do - that is, they don't care about looking suspicious. I obviously differ in my mentality, which is why I edited my post. My self-vote has already been explained. And this my defense right here. | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
On December 24 2011 13:08 Grackaroni wrote: You've become too inconsistent. At the start of the game you downplayed yourself as a lurker and a bad player. You later defended yourself using the above quote claiming that it was good play, it helped you lure scum out of hiding, and that you don't mind putting yourself out as a target. You've taken some pressure and now all of a sudden you don't even want to play the game anymore? That doesn't match with your earlier statement. You should be using the information you've gathered with your "I'm a bad player and a lurker" trap to help expose the scum team. Instead you've already gotten a defeatist attitude. At the risk of sounding pretentious, I give you this quote: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines" - Ralph Waldo Emerson. Relying on consistency as your argument is weak - it discounts the illogic that pervades the human mind. Okay, done with that rant. I said I was at times a lurker, not in this game specifically. And unskilled does not equate to bad. Even an unskilled player can make good plays from time to time, as I believed I had done at that point. My reasons for desiring to stop playing the game have already been explained. Why wouldn't you want to give us your reads? You should be giving out information to help the town, especially because your about to be lynched... there is no alignment where it would be beneficial for you to not try to defend yourself and giving us what your thinking helps the town. I can think of several roles in which it would be beneficial - perhaps not in this game, but they do exist. Semantics aside, I never said that I would not ever share my thoughts, merely that I wanted to hold them for a more opportune time. With nearly a day left, that time is not now. And my defense is this post, as well as several others. It is actually good to appear as townish as possible for both town and scum, but for somebody with as limited time as yourself you should be prioritizing reading other people's filters over your own. As scum you could still try to wiggle your way out of the lynch. instead you put a placeholder vote on yourself EVEN THOUGH you said that you would be here before the deadline. You edit a post EVEN THOUGH you said you read the rules after people said you couldn't self vote. I think it's entirely possible that your play at the start of the game was so suspicious that now the mafia decided to bus you, that's my best explanation for why you've given up and are even asking to be modkilled. I hope that's not the case because you can't try to get modkilled to help your team. I'm not sure where you get the impression that I have "limited time" - I have quite a bit of time at the moment, thank you. I do appreciate the advice, though - when I'm in a game and have limited time I'll be sure to prioritize as you suggest. I believe that redundancies are advisable in certain situations - this is one. Placing my vote on myself gives me an extra layer against instadeath by failing to vote - in line with my previously expressed desire to survive, you'll find. And I'm not saying that I'm perfect; I re-read the rules about voting, not editing posts, hence my error. furthermore, that edit occurred before I voted for myself - a strike against you for not checking the time stamps and flow of the game. And as I've already stated, I desired a modkill merely because I thought anyone could do a better job than me - I figured my replacement, whoever that may be, would be better able than myself to see the game through. Since I've not been modkilled, though, I will do my best to see this game through. The bottom line is this: I am not a mafia. (shades of Nixon, eh?) :  : | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9832 Posts
On December 24 2011 08:14 sephirotharg wrote: Because I don't desire to appear mafia? If I'm town, the last thing I'd want to do is contradict myself, so it seems natural to me to re-read my posts. If you don't think mafia are inconsistent than why are you editing posts to avoid contradicting yourself? What your saying here makes it looks like contradicting yourself makes you appear scummy. | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
Explain to me where I said mafia are inconsistent. | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
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Grackaroni
United States9832 Posts
On December 24 2011 14:50 sephirotharg wrote: @ Grackaroni Explain to me where I said mafia are inconsistent. You said you don't want to appear to be mafia so you want to avoid contradicting yourself to make yourself look more town. Contradicting yourself IS being inconsistent | ||
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Adam4167
Australia1426 Posts
Who would make a better lynch than you, and why? I'm going to sit here now and read through this block of text. | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
I've never stated that mafia are inconsistent, or consistent for that matter. I did attack the fact that you used inconsistency as a basis for labeling me, however. In my experience, mafia tend (note the word tend, is not always the case) to be contradictory - hence my desire to appear non-contradictory. | ||
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sephirotharg
United States91 Posts
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