EPTMr. Wiggles Mini Mafia I - Page 12
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
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EchelonTee
United States5203 Posts
My thoughts at this point are in line with Cyber's, that at least some of the sheep voting that happened is suspicious. Personally I have my eyes on Shraft. On December 24 2011 02:17 Shraft wrote: The more I think about it, the more I dislike sephirotharg's post. I am going to put my vote on him until I hear what he has to say. ##Vote sephirotharg After Dirk has started a case on seph, Shraft follows up with what looks like a pretty normal pressure vote; put some heat on the suspicious fellow to generate discussion, nothing wrong with that. Though he doesn't post any analysis on this, nor in his subsequent posts, that's not necessarily a red flag at this early stage in the game. However, after others have made their cases on jay and seph, he says: On December 24 2011 19:33 Shraft wrote: I'm going to read through his filter once again when I get back and try to be as objective as possible. Then I'll decide if my suspicion toward him was justified or not. But instead of coming back and posting anything from seph's filter that he finds scummy, all he says is: On December 25 2011 07:29 Shraft wrote: All right, just read through the last two pages. I still think that seph has a higher chance of flipping red than jay. At first glance the cases on jay seem far-fetched to me. I'm going to read them through in detail once again now and make a more substantial post, but at the moment the chance of me switching my vote from seph to jay is slim. After the wagon has hit full steam, Shraft seems to just sit back and let the show unfold. I don't like this; not only does he shrug off concerns with jay by simply discrediting seph, he is content with letting seph go under without making a strong case in either direction, or even re-analyzing his position as he said he would. sephirotharg, who, though misguided, is now known to be unbiased, also noted this odd behavior from Shraft. At the moment I am suspicious. I will be looking forward for what you have to say regarding who you want dead and why. | ||
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hyshes
Belgium428 Posts
On December 25 2011 14:42 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Alright, that didn't go so well. That mislynch was caused by both his actions, and a majority of us being relatively content with having found someone that looked scummy. For as long as there are more scum out there than we can lynch per day, we should be scum hunting after we find a most likely candidate. Of particular concern to me was sheep voting. A few people sheep voted, if I had to name names, they would be Dirkzor Shraft Jaybrundage Hyshes The former two make the list because their initial votes were merely pressure. Their decision to be on the wagon at the end of the day is what matters most, and they borrowed logic from others. At some point you're going to have to make reads on candidates other than the one you want to hang most, to make sure there is a majority if you think someone is scum. It's ok to not have new content in an analysis on a bandwagon you want to join. Scum only say so many scummy things each, it's not like every word is overflowing with scummyness, so at some point the amount of new things to contribute is going to run dry. As a townie, you have to recognise that your argument brings nothing new, and show in your post both who helped you and what logic of theirs convinced you. The problems with reading people arise when townies get content with sheeping, and not doing any analysis. Again, if you're sheep voting, realise that you are, and show the logic that convinced you a person is scummy. Dirkzor, Shraft, Jaybrundage and Hyshes: Tell us what convinced you to be on the lynch at the end of the day. More importantly, if you could kill somebody right now, who would it be and why?. I did not sheepvote. I'm just not gonna let anyone come in here screw with us and get away with it. Especially when they say they are a noob but clearly aren't. There is no need as town to play so anti-town in a mini setup. Trickery can maybe used in abigger game, but here we have no room for it. And thus, in a mini game i see that as scumplay. There is no point in making lists atm of who is scum or not. I'm going to wait until we know who the scum shot this night. | ||
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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
On December 25 2011 14:42 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Alright, that didn't go so well. That mislynch was caused by both his actions, and a majority of us being relatively content with having found someone that looked scummy. For as long as there are more scum out there than we can lynch per day, we should be scum hunting after we find a most likely candidate. Of particular concern to me was sheep voting. A few people sheep voted, if I had to name names, they would be Dirkzor Shraft Jaybrundage Hyshes The former two make the list because their initial votes were merely pressure. Their decision to be on the wagon at the end of the day is what matters most, and they borrowed logic from others. At some point you're going to have to make reads on candidates other than the one you want to hang most, to make sure there is a majority if you think someone is scum. It's ok to not have new content in an analysis on a bandwagon you want to join. Scum only say so many scummy things each, it's not like every word is overflowing with scummyness, so at some point the amount of new things to contribute is going to run dry. As a townie, you have to recognise that your argument brings nothing new, and show in your post both who helped you and what logic of theirs convinced you. The problems with reading people arise when townies get content with sheeping, and not doing any analysis. Again, if you're sheep voting, realise that you are, and show the logic that convinced you a person is scummy. Dirkzor, Shraft, Jaybrundage and Hyshes: Tell us what convinced you to be on the lynch at the end of the day. More importantly, if you could kill somebody right now, who would it be and why?. I can't see how you would point me out for sheep voting? I pressure voted _very_ early on Seph and later reevaluted to jay. When i knew that i wouldn't post more before lynch time I went back to Seph to get a lynch. I'll answer you first question now and the second later in another post. For me i wanted to lynch either Seph or Jay. Seph was pressured way to easy into weird posts and strange way of acting. The whole "I wont post until a mod clears me" and the excuses in his posting. As i wrote when i changed my vote to jay i was leaning town on seph - but the lynch still would give some info. Jay just jumped on the wagon way to easy. I wrote about this when i went through peoples reasons to vote for Seph. He did put up a lot of defence when the cases on him were made but it just felt overly aggressive. It seemed like he wanted his actions to be completly the opposite from what seph showed in his defence and he went to far. In the end i just wanted a lynch and voted Seph because the activity level didn't seem that high and i saw the chance to get enough people to switch very small. I've just read the whole thread and have a few people's filter to go through. I'll answer your second question then. | ||
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Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [EchelonTee's post] + On December 25 2011 16:30 EchelonTee wrote: Christmas season is really savaging this town huh -.- sigh. My thoughts at this point are in line with Cyber's, that at least some of the sheep voting that happened is suspicious. Personally I have my eyes on Shraft. After Dirk has started a case on seph, Shraft follows up with what looks like a pretty normal pressure vote; put some heat on the suspicious fellow to generate discussion, nothing wrong with that. Though he doesn't post any analysis on this, nor in his subsequent posts, that's not necessarily a red flag at this early stage in the game. However, after others have made their cases on jay and seph, he says: But instead of coming back and posting anything from seph's filter that he finds scummy, all he says is: After the wagon has hit full steam, Shraft seems to just sit back and let the show unfold. I don't like this; not only does he shrug off concerns with jay by simply discrediting seph, he is content with letting seph go under without making a strong case in either direction, or even re-analyzing his position as he said he would. sephirotharg, who, though misguided, is now known to be unbiased, also noted this odd behavior from Shraft. At the moment I am suspicious. I will be looking forward for what you have to say regarding who you want dead and why. I did re-analyze my position. It's when I "discredited" seph's case on jay that I determined that I wouldn't change my vote. Every point against jay was stretched too far, to make it appear as he was doing something scummy, when in fact there's nothing scummy about jay's post. It felt more like an attempt to escape the lynch than an honest try at finding scum. | ||
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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
I would like to kill him. It would atleast be very interesting to see what he flips. (Wow batman slow down... It's ALWAYS interesting what people flip... O_o) + Show Spoiler + On December 24 2011 21:18 Dirkzor wrote: GiygaS: and He adds nothing new other then to hesitate a bit before voting for seph (after his first defence). This could easily be jumping on the wagon that Shraft and myself started. As i wrote earlier (see spoiler) he jumped on the Seph wagon prette early without much reasoning. He don't want to vote on a person with just 1 post but immediatly after sephs 2nd post he votes for him with not much more to go after then after the first post. After this he have a few post with nothing in them. Then he is gone for almost 24hours and comes back posting this: On December 25 2011 04:49 GiygaS wrote: I just read seph's defense and I've skimmed throught his whole jaybrundage thing. I'm not sure on him, and not nearly as much as I am on Sephiroth. All I heard in the defense was literally "I'm not mafia, would mafia do this?" can of defense, let alone how many times he mentions "I'm town", or that he's just a noob with a bad strategy. If I read honestly from him one more time I'm going to scream D: Reading through the rest now. On December 25 2011 05:23 GiygaS wrote: Yeah I believe jay in his defense, I'm sticking with seph. He admits that he just skimmed trough "the whole jaybrundage thing" but in the same post comes to the conclusion that Seph is more scummy than Jay. The reasoning for thinking Seph is scum is okay, but not very in-depth considering how much Seph had actually written to defend himself at this point. The last post just screams scumbuddy to me. No reasoning. No logic. Just a statement to further enhance the image that Jay is a good guy. On December 25 2011 06:49 GiygaS wrote: A lot of the stuff on Jay is twisting words to say he's mafia. While the first evidence against you was indeed flavor text (the lurker thing), most of he stuff on you now is how you've reacted to things IMO. Meanwhile Jay only has weird flavor text twisting against him. BTW, I think the reason he hasn't scumhunted yet is there's pretty much him and you on the chopping block. That and I just get a tone of voice thing in yours that makes it seem you're way more concerned about getting lynched than Jay is, which I usually associate with a mafia. This post is to me a null read. But i'll run over it anyway. The first part (bolded) makes perfectly sense to me. GiygaS argues that the case on Jay is mostly twisting words and then acknowledges that the case on Seph is similar but to him its more _how_ seph responded then what was the actual case. Again i would have liked to see more in-depth analysis. How did Seph react to make you think he was scum? How did Jay react better? Last part of the post is again defending Jay on why he hasn't scumhunted (besides Seph). At this early stage of the game why would you defend someone? It just strikes me as weird since it is hard to get a read this early. All in all not much was done from his side on day1. Would we have missed him if he had not posted at all? (yes he had a few post regarding lynch policy but those are useless) He pushed gently towards Seph in the beginning not overcommiting. Then later comes back and push Seph again without going all out crazy bananas mega case. Small nudges to get wagon on seph to continue while taking of spotlight from potential scumbuddy Jay. | ||
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Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
At first I was going to make a post saying that I am kind of suspicious about Dirkzor, but then I refreshed the page, and I quite like his last post. Still, I have some issues with him. First off, let's take a few of his initial posts: + Show Spoiler + On December 23 2011 23:47 Dirkzor wrote: Also, it's been 12 hours since we started and several people have yet to post. Mattchew Shraft minus_human (yeah one post saying you would be back in a few hours...) EchelonTee jaybrundage Gogo! We need more activity if we want to find scum. Otherwise it will be chaos come a few hours before lynch time! On December 24 2011 08:01 Dirkzor wrote: Why vote on yourself? Even if it is a placeholder? Why not vote on me or Shraft who you said you found suspicius? Put some pressure back? Shraft how did you realize that Mattchew was banned? I have opdated my post with the filters on page 3 if people want to use it. (I used edit as it was a pre-game post that have no influence - ok?) minus_human EchelonTee jaybrundage Still waiting for you guys! (I left out hyshes since he "just" replaced Matt) On December 24 2011 21:18 Dirkzor wrote: This lynch looks worse the more people jumped on the wagon. Votes on Sephirotharg in order of appearence: Dirkzor Shraft GiygaS Sephirotharg jaybrundage Adam4167 EchelonTee Misder and Cyber are the only ones to qeustion this. Cyber targeted me and Misder targeted jay. Lest go through the reasons people voted for Sephirotharg: Dirk: and Basicly a very weak vote based on a semi joke (the smiley) concerning his own level of activity. I did this because at this point we were only discussing policy lynches which don't really nets us any info since everyone disagrees anyway. Shraft: and He adds to the case with the point about how he preemptivly excuse himself in his first post: "I'm not skilled, but it's still fun  ". After that he places a vote that is very clearly a pressure vote. GiygaS: and He adds nothing new other then to hesitate a bit before voting for seph (after his first defence). This could easily be jumping on the wagon that Shraft and myself started. sephirotharg: Well... jaybrundage: At this point several people was after seph. He was acting weird and voting for himself. An easy target to jump on and thats exactly what jay did. Nothing new added to the case. This is the point where my alarm bells started ringing. Why is everyone going for this kid? I find this very suspicious... Adam4167: Gives a really long case on Seph. Nothing that stands out as brand new but some points where made that hadn't been brought up before. Also Adam made a great affort in posting this which I don't think a scum would do since Seph is already an easy target. All in all a good case imo. EchelonTee: Slightly similar to adams. It is a well thought out and worked out case. Nothing that really shines through as new but by now 5 others have already voted for speh and made cases. Since this is only day1 very little material is there to work with. I don't find this overly scummy but Tee is still jumping the easy target. Basically, the problem I have with these three posts aren't the content in itself, rather the lack of it. I said earlier on that I think it's basically a null tell when people encourage each other to contribute. I still stand by that, but posting multiple posts lacking content is an indicator that you want to look as if you're contributing even though you're sharing very little of your own thoughts. The list posts bring nothing new to the table, they're just empty contributions. The post "analysing" each vote for sephirotharg in fact contains very little analysis. It's basically just quoting every post and then summing them up in three sentences. This is not scummy per se, it's just that I get the impression that people are of the opinion that dirkzor has contributed to the discussion/scumhunting in the thread, while in fact most of his posts are lacking content. + Show Spoiler [Last part of his post analysing the vo…] + On December 24 2011 21:18 Dirkzor wrote: To conclude this wall of text I find Jay scummy. He jumped the wagon early with no really evidence or thought behind it other then what others had already pointed out. When misder goes after him he quickly counter attacks pointing out how misder havn't done anything but discuss policy lynches. Misder later case on him is really solid and i agree with most of it. Edit before posting: I seem to have missed that Grackaroni have also voted for him. Wont go into his posts now. Also while writing hyshes have voted for him aswell. So now the number is at 9 votes on seph. This wagon is going to easy at the moment. Either scum have already given up on seph and is then pushing him hard or we found a very bad townie. I'm leaning bad townie. ##Unvote ##Vote jaybrundage The problem I have is that he switches his vote to jay while referring to Misder's case as "really solid". This quirks me because I had earlier read through Misder's case and I thoughts it was (no offense toward Misder) kind of poor. Let's look at Misder's case (my comments are bolded): + Show Spoiler + On December 24 2011 11:23 Misder wrote: The more I read seph, the more I read noob :/ I've read Ver's analysis on Mafia XXX multiple times, and I know the way I was thinking when I was mafia. The first post is the only thing I read that is preemptive defense. 1) It's not even preemptive defense- all it is is saying lurking is natural 2) It's not the only post- nothing after that post seems the way I would play at all as scum. Just seems like a frustrated townie to me. 3) Similar to 2, his play is anti-town, but I highly doubt he's scum (for example, voting for yourself is anti-town, but difficult for scum to do; or leaving the game- thats anti-town, but something I would not expect scum to do). It's almost like he's not trying to be careful of what he's doing (besides the editing I guess) I'll let seph defend himself though. On jay, let's just say its a gut read, and I'm feeling very good about it. I do only have 4 posts to work with right now. We can look at them though. Post 1 "Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency." This is pretty much the discussion between the Lynch all Lurkers policy lynch. However, framing it so that one side = scum is really not logical. Otherwise, jay is saying that GygaS and Cyber_Cheese are scum as well. Misder is putting words in his mouth. Jay did not frame it so that one side = scum. He simply said that "Trying to soft claim that lurking is okay is honestly pretty anti town". Anti town != scum. And claming that lurking is okay is anti town. "I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest." The "to be honest" part is something minor, but I don't like it. It's like saying, "I'm scum but even to me its really weird." It's more likely a writing habit of jay's than anything else. Attempting to equate it to "I'm scum but even to me it's really weird" is just silly. "Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that." This isn't going anywhere, and there's no point to it. It's just saying, placeholder vote could be scum or town. I agree that this is mostly nonsense from jay, but it's not really scummy. "Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something" A fake attempt to generate more discussion when in reality, doesn't do anything. If you agree that this is just a fake attempt to generate discussion, then surely you must agree that Dirkzor's posting of lists combined with encouraging the people on said list to be more active is also a fake attempt to generate discussion. Encouraging people to post is not scummy in itself. Post 2 "Plz address these concerns." Same as before. Same as before. "If your town tell use everything you know so that we have tools to get scum." Basically, bluefishing. Really? No. Post 3 Compare this line: "Hm I find it interesting that you choice to vote for me." with one of his Student Mafia post ("But im curious how did i go from not posting quality stuff to being mafia.") Surprisingly similar. This meta is surprisingly weak. You can't excerpt single sentences from his posts in Student Mafia, compare them to single sentences from this game, and believe that it holds any evidence (or even indicates in the slightest) that jay is scum? Also similar: same post from above- "And if you want to make a case on me go for it." and another post from Student Mafia ("I dont mind if you think im scummy. Just make a real case for it.") Same as above. "So far you posted everything about policy lynches which is a great discussion starter. You have to move on sooner or later. You then vote for me with practically nothing. You claim i haven't contributed but all you talked about was policy lynches." Attacking me as defense, basically saying "Misder isn't qualified to attack me because he only talked about policy lynches". We can compare this to him and Adam and xtfffc in Student Mafia, although in that case, he did attack Adam first. Yet another post in Student Mafia ("If you wanna call me me scummy come out and say it im done with people soft claiming someones scum with out a real reason behind it. I honestly think that bullshit like that is not going to help the town.") I agree that his attack on you was silly, but you still can't compare single sentences to each other and use it to indicate that someone is mafia. None of this meta holds any water at all. Although there is one good thing for him- he's not trying to act noobish like he did in the beginning of Student Mafia. I find it really weird that he switches his vote while referring to this case as solid. The case Misder provided is all but solid. It holds barely any evidence at all. He doesn't even point to what he thinks is good about the case. He merely states that he "agrees with most of it". It just seems like an excuse to switch his vote. I thought this might be Dirkzor attempting to jump off the wagon that he started against sephirotharg (because he knew that he was innocent) in order to lessen the suspicion toward him, but that's a mere assumption and shouldn't be interpreted as more than that. That said, his switch back to sephirotharg was pro-town (only mafia would benefit from a no lynch) although it didn't matter in the end. There is one thing I don't like about his vote switch though. He says "I want them both to hang - atleast to get info." which is something that makes me twitch every time I read it. "Lynching to get information" is something that mafia uses to rationalise a lynch on a player that they know is town. Town lynches to kill scum, not to gain information. That said, I really like his last post concerning giygas, mostly because I hadn't noticed myself that giygas stated a lot of stuff without providing much reasoning. (The only post of giygas' that I had acknowledged before Dirkzor's post was "Yeah I believe jay in his defense, I'm sticking with seph.") In the end, my post didn't turn out the way I originally thought it would. At the time I started writing this I was quite suspicious of him, but his last post lessened my suspicion toward him greatly. | ||
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Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
First off, we shouldn't use ANY lists about who medics should protect. They simply serve as a heads up to the mafia saying "avoid to hit these targets". I don't think that a vigilante list is of any good either. Lists are easily influenced by the mafia and therefore they should be avoided at all times. To a vigilante or cop, the only one who is confirmed town is himself. You should use your powers at your own discretion. If you are a power role, but don't know how to use your power you should not ask for advice in the thread, you should rather consult some guide. For cops and vigilantes I can recommend Ace's guide. Bottom line: if you are a blue role, don't listen to anyone in this thread telling you how to use your power. Decide for yourself. If you are uncertain, consult a guide. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On December 25 2011 21:12 Dirkzor wrote: I can't see how you would point me out for sheep voting? I pressure voted _very_ early on Seph and later reevaluted to jay. When i knew that i wouldn't post more before lynch time I went back to Seph to get a lynch. I'll answer you first question now and the second later in another post. For me i wanted to lynch either Seph or Jay. Seph was pressured way to easy into weird posts and strange way of acting. The whole "I wont post until a mod clears me" and the excuses in his posting. As i wrote when i changed my vote to jay i was leaning town on seph - but the lynch still would give some info. Jay just jumped on the wagon way to easy. I wrote about this when i went through peoples reasons to vote for Seph. He did put up a lot of defence when the cases on him were made but it just felt overly aggressive. It seemed like he wanted his actions to be completly the opposite from what seph showed in his defence and he went to far. In the end i just wanted a lynch and voted Seph because the activity level didn't seem that high and i saw the chance to get enough people to switch very small. I've just read the whole thread and have a few people's filter to go through. I'll answer your second question then. I called it sheeping because your pressure was made off a relatively weak statement. What about his play after you put the vote on inspired you to have it there at the end of the day? Did you believe both Seph and Jay were scum at the times you voted them? You claim to use getting a lynch as the reason to swap back to Jay, but your vote-swap changed it from 8v3 to 9v2. Even before your swap, and given that Seph wasn't going to vote for himself, that left the game at 7v4, a majority on Seph already. What parts of the pages between these convinced you that your vote was necessary to ensure a majority was reached, and did anything else factor in outside of wanting to ensure a lynch? On December 25 2011 20:59 hyshes wrote: I did not sheepvote. I'm just not gonna let anyone come in here screw with us and get away with it. Especially when they say they are a noob but clearly aren't.[1] There is no need as town to play so anti-town in a mini setup. Trickery can maybe used in abigger game, but here we have no room for it. And thus, in a mini game i see that as scumplay. There is no point in making lists atm of who is scum or not. I'm going to wait until we know who the scum shot this night. Alright, what made you feel that he clearly wasn't a noob at the time? The automatic default from 'bad trap' to 'scumplay' seems like multiple leaps of logic based off the fact he wasn't the noob he claimed to be. | ||
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hyshes
Belgium428 Posts
On December 26 2011 06:12 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I called it sheeping because your pressure was made off a relatively weak statement. What about his play after you put the vote on inspired you to have it there at the end of the day? Did you believe both Seph and Jay were scum at the times you voted them? You claim to use getting a lynch as the reason to swap back to Jay, but your vote-swap changed it from 8v3 to 9v2. Even before your swap, and given that Seph wasn't going to vote for himself, that left the game at 7v4, a majority on Seph already. What parts of the pages between these convinced you that your vote was necessary to ensure a majority was reached, and did anything else factor in outside of wanting to ensure a lynch? Alright, what made you feel that he clearly wasn't a noob at the time? The automatic default from 'bad trap' to 'scumplay' seems like multiple leaps of logic based off the fact he wasn't the noob he claimed to be. Noobs don't point out there mistakes. Someone else does this for them. He knows way too much about the game. | ||
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Adam4167
Australia1426 Posts
On December 26 2011 06:59 hyshes wrote: Noobs don't point out there mistakes. Someone else does this for them. He knows way too much about the game. Im looking over seph's filter now to try and verify what you are saying. I cant see any point where he points out his own mistake somewhere, we point out his mistakes and then he tries to cover it by saying it was a ploy to catch scum. Can you point to the post you are referring to specifically? | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9832 Posts
On December 25 2011 14:34 jaybrundage wrote: Sucks Sep was town Moving on. I would like to lynch hyshes next he has not attributed much to the discussion at all. And in general has not posted anything that has any significance How confident in this lynch are you? You already explained that you think lynches based purely off of policy are bad so is there something about his play that feels scummy to you or is it because of his lack of contributions. | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
You have contributed little to nothing to this thread and nothing original. You have barley posted and even then your posting has been scarce at best. I would like to see give your best case ASAP. I am fairly certian that if you dont post a case of your own that your going to bandwagon on the next one that comes around. Your play so far has been extremely anti town. | ||
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jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
On December 26 2011 11:24 Grackaroni wrote: How confident in this lynch are you? You already explained that you think lynches based purely off of policy are bad so is there something about his play that feels scummy to you or is it because of his lack of contributions. I dont want to have to get a lynch going on Hyshes its my intent that he starts becoming an active poster. As it it Hyshes as not done anything of vaule and if you're not helping the town you're hurting the town. If Hyshes does not provide more content then we cant get a read on him. He has not tried to establish that he is a townie. The number one thing you should do as town on day one. If he continues with his posting habit i think hes a very viable lynch candidate | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Day 2: Merry Christmas! ![[image loading]](http://pixdaus.com/pics/1261404180D6I9C9X.jpg) Grackaroni lay in his bed sleeping, when a thumping on his roof roused him from his slumber. At first he was surprised and confused, but then he remembered that it was Christmas Morning. "It must be Santa Claus", he thought to himself, "here to bring me my Christmas presents!" He smiled as he rolled over and closed his eyes once more. "I better go to sleep again, or he might leave without giving me my presents!" And with that, he went back to sleep, entirely mindful of, but not concerned with, the sound of footsteps on his roof and a scraping down his chimney. It was only after the mafia had descended from the roof and retreated to a safe distance that they triggered the explosives they had lowered into Grackaroni's house and he felt any kind of panic, but that only lasted for a split second, before he felt nothing more at all. Grackaroni the Townie had an explosive start to his Christmas Day! Day 2 has begun! With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!. Day 2 ends in 48 hours, at 12 KST two days from now. | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9832 Posts
Good luck guys and try to post more than I did.  | ||
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Misder
United States1557 Posts
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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
On December 26 2011 06:12 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I called it sheeping because your pressure was made off a relatively weak statement. What about his play after you put the vote on inspired you to have it there at the end of the day? Did you believe both Seph and Jay were scum at the times you voted them? You claim to use getting a lynch as the reason to swap back to Jay, but your vote-swap changed it from 8v3 to 9v2. Even before your swap, and given that Seph wasn't going to vote for himself, that left the game at 7v4, a majority on Seph already. What parts of the pages between these convinced you that your vote was necessary to ensure a majority was reached, and did anything else factor in outside of wanting to ensure a lynch? I wanted Jay to hang more then Seph. But with the activity level in the thread and the fact that i wouldn't be back before lynch made me switch back to seph. I did not do any math to figure out if my vote would be the deciding one, but the consensus seemed to be that Seph would hang. I just my vote there so a few late switches wasn't going to ruin it. It just felt like people weren't abandoning the Seph wagon and I couldn't be around to try to persuade them. I feel like I just reapeated my self. Please ask again if you want me to clarify something... | ||
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Dirkzor
Denmark1944 Posts
On December 26 2011 00:55 Shraft wrote: RE: Who do you want to lynch and why? At first I was going to make a post saying that I am kind of suspicious about Dirkzor, but then I refreshed the page, and I quite like his last post. Still, I have some issues with him. First off, let's take a few of his initial posts: + Show Spoiler + On December 23 2011 23:47 Dirkzor wrote: Also, it's been 12 hours since we started and several people have yet to post. Mattchew Shraft minus_human (yeah one post saying you would be back in a few hours...) EchelonTee jaybrundage Gogo! We need more activity if we want to find scum. Otherwise it will be chaos come a few hours before lynch time! On December 24 2011 08:01 Dirkzor wrote: Why vote on yourself? Even if it is a placeholder? Why not vote on me or Shraft who you said you found suspicius? Put some pressure back? Shraft how did you realize that Mattchew was banned? I have opdated my post with the filters on page 3 if people want to use it. (I used edit as it was a pre-game post that have no influence - ok?) minus_human EchelonTee jaybrundage Still waiting for you guys! (I left out hyshes since he "just" replaced Matt) On December 24 2011 21:18 Dirkzor wrote: This lynch looks worse the more people jumped on the wagon. Votes on Sephirotharg in order of appearence: Dirkzor Shraft GiygaS Sephirotharg jaybrundage Adam4167 EchelonTee Misder and Cyber are the only ones to qeustion this. Cyber targeted me and Misder targeted jay. Lest go through the reasons people voted for Sephirotharg: Dirk: and Basicly a very weak vote based on a semi joke (the smiley) concerning his own level of activity. I did this because at this point we were only discussing policy lynches which don't really nets us any info since everyone disagrees anyway. Shraft: and He adds to the case with the point about how he preemptivly excuse himself in his first post: "I'm not skilled, but it's still fun ". After that he places a vote that is very clearly a pressure vote. GiygaS: and He adds nothing new other then to hesitate a bit before voting for seph (after his first defence). This could easily be jumping on the wagon that Shraft and myself started. sephirotharg: Well... jaybrundage: At this point several people was after seph. He was acting weird and voting for himself. An easy target to jump on and thats exactly what jay did. Nothing new added to the case. This is the point where my alarm bells started ringing. Why is everyone going for this kid? I find this very suspicious... Adam4167: Gives a really long case on Seph. Nothing that stands out as brand new but some points where made that hadn't been brought up before. Also Adam made a great affort in posting this which I don't think a scum would do since Seph is already an easy target. All in all a good case imo. EchelonTee: Slightly similar to adams. It is a well thought out and worked out case. Nothing that really shines through as new but by now 5 others have already voted for speh and made cases. Since this is only day1 very little material is there to work with. I don't find this overly scummy but Tee is still jumping the easy target. Basically, the problem I have with these three posts aren't the content in itself, rather the lack of it. I said earlier on that I think it's basically a null tell when people encourage each other to contribute. I still stand by that, but posting multiple posts lacking content is an indicator that you want to look as if you're contributing even though you're sharing very little of your own thoughts. The list posts bring nothing new to the table, they're just empty contributions. The post "analysing" each vote for sephirotharg in fact contains very little analysis. It's basically just quoting every post and then summing them up in three sentences. This is not scummy per se, it's just that I get the impression that people are of the opinion that dirkzor has contributed to the discussion/scumhunting in the thread, while in fact most of his posts are lacking content. + Show Spoiler [Last part of his post analysing the vo…] + On December 24 2011 21:18 Dirkzor wrote: To conclude this wall of text I find Jay scummy. He jumped the wagon early with no really evidence or thought behind it other then what others had already pointed out. When misder goes after him he quickly counter attacks pointing out how misder havn't done anything but discuss policy lynches. Misder later case on him is really solid and i agree with most of it. Edit before posting: I seem to have missed that Grackaroni have also voted for him. Wont go into his posts now. Also while writing hyshes have voted for him aswell. So now the number is at 9 votes on seph. This wagon is going to easy at the moment. Either scum have already given up on seph and is then pushing him hard or we found a very bad townie. I'm leaning bad townie. ##Unvote ##Vote jaybrundage The problem I have is that he switches his vote to jay while referring to Misder's case as "really solid". This quirks me because I had earlier read through Misder's case and I thoughts it was (no offense toward Misder) kind of poor. Let's look at Misder's case (my comments are bolded): + Show Spoiler + On December 24 2011 11:23 Misder wrote: The more I read seph, the more I read noob :/ I've read Ver's analysis on Mafia XXX multiple times, and I know the way I was thinking when I was mafia. The first post is the only thing I read that is preemptive defense. 1) It's not even preemptive defense- all it is is saying lurking is natural 2) It's not the only post- nothing after that post seems the way I would play at all as scum. Just seems like a frustrated townie to me. 3) Similar to 2, his play is anti-town, but I highly doubt he's scum (for example, voting for yourself is anti-town, but difficult for scum to do; or leaving the game- thats anti-town, but something I would not expect scum to do). It's almost like he's not trying to be careful of what he's doing (besides the editing I guess) I'll let seph defend himself though. On jay, let's just say its a gut read, and I'm feeling very good about it. I do only have 4 posts to work with right now. We can look at them though. Post 1 "Trying to soft claim that lurking is ok is honestly pretty anti town. There is not reason to allow it or hint that it's acceptable or we gonna establish a bad town atmosphere. We need people to post what they think so we can get transparency." This is pretty much the discussion between the Lynch all Lurkers policy lynch. However, framing it so that one side = scum is really not logical. Otherwise, jay is saying that GygaS and Cyber_Cheese are scum as well. Misder is putting words in his mouth. Jay did not frame it so that one side = scum. He simply said that "Trying to soft claim that lurking is okay is honestly pretty anti town". Anti town != scum. And claming that lurking is okay is anti town. "I also fine the fact that sephirotharg posted a vote in himself really really weird to be honest." The "to be honest" part is something minor, but I don't like it. It's like saying, "I'm scum but even to me its really weird." It's more likely a writing habit of jay's than anything else. Attempting to equate it to "I'm scum but even to me it's really weird" is just silly. "Why would you put a vote on your self as a "placeholder" I honestly think its a distraction because why would mafia vote himself. But at the same time why would town vote for himself. Its a action that makes no sense. And when we are trying to get clarity why would you do that." This isn't going anywhere, and there's no point to it. It's just saying, placeholder vote could be scum or town. I agree that this is mostly nonsense from jay, but it's not really scummy. "Honestly you seem to want to be voting for the way your acting. Post a solid reason why we should not vote for you. Defend your self give people another case on someone you think is scummy. Something" A fake attempt to generate more discussion when in reality, doesn't do anything. If you agree that this is just a fake attempt to generate discussion, then surely you must agree that Dirkzor's posting of lists combined with encouraging the people on said list to be more active is also a fake attempt to generate discussion. Encouraging people to post is not scummy in itself. Post 2 "Plz address these concerns." Same as before. Same as before. "If your town tell use everything you know so that we have tools to get scum." Basically, bluefishing. Really? No. Post 3 Compare this line: "Hm I find it interesting that you choice to vote for me." with one of his Student Mafia post ("But im curious how did i go from not posting quality stuff to being mafia.") Surprisingly similar. This meta is surprisingly weak. You can't excerpt single sentences from his posts in Student Mafia, compare them to single sentences from this game, and believe that it holds any evidence (or even indicates in the slightest) that jay is scum? Also similar: same post from above- "And if you want to make a case on me go for it." and another post from Student Mafia ("I dont mind if you think im scummy. Just make a real case for it.") Same as above. "So far you posted everything about policy lynches which is a great discussion starter. You have to move on sooner or later. You then vote for me with practically nothing. You claim i haven't contributed but all you talked about was policy lynches." Attacking me as defense, basically saying "Misder isn't qualified to attack me because he only talked about policy lynches". We can compare this to him and Adam and xtfffc in Student Mafia, although in that case, he did attack Adam first. Yet another post in Student Mafia ("If you wanna call me me scummy come out and say it im done with people soft claiming someones scum with out a real reason behind it. I honestly think that bullshit like that is not going to help the town.") I agree that his attack on you was silly, but you still can't compare single sentences to each other and use it to indicate that someone is mafia. None of this meta holds any water at all. Although there is one good thing for him- he's not trying to act noobish like he did in the beginning of Student Mafia. I find it really weird that he switches his vote while referring to this case as solid. The case Misder provided is all but solid. It holds barely any evidence at all. He doesn't even point to what he thinks is good about the case. He merely states that he "agrees with most of it". It just seems like an excuse to switch his vote. I thought this might be Dirkzor attempting to jump off the wagon that he started against sephirotharg (because he knew that he was innocent) in order to lessen the suspicion toward him, but that's a mere assumption and shouldn't be interpreted as more than that. That said, his switch back to sephirotharg was pro-town (only mafia would benefit from a no lynch) although it didn't matter in the end. There is one thing I don't like about his vote switch though. He says "I want them both to hang - atleast to get info." which is something that makes me twitch every time I read it. "Lynching to get information" is something that mafia uses to rationalise a lynch on a player that they know is town. Town lynches to kill scum, not to gain information. That said, I really like his last post concerning giygas, mostly because I hadn't noticed myself that giygas stated a lot of stuff without providing much reasoning. (The only post of giygas' that I had acknowledged before Dirkzor's post was "Yeah I believe jay in his defense, I'm sticking with seph.") In the end, my post didn't turn out the way I originally thought it would. At the time I started writing this I was quite suspicious of him, but his last post lessened my suspicion toward him greatly. The reason for me to make the long fluffy post about who had voted for seph, and why, was because i wanted to see the timeline for the wagon on Seph. The conclusion i made was rather short but I still feel it gave me an overview over how it went down. The reason I didn't go more in-depth was that i ran out of time. I was getting ready for christmas and was leaving after that. I agree that some of my other post are kinda useless toward generating real discussion but can be perceived as such. I will do better! | ||
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Shraft
Sweden701 Posts
How do you guys feel about jay? Do you still want to off him or do you think that there's better targets? I think his play is more in line with an emotionally invested townie than scum. My scepticism toward the jay lynch probably stems from the lackluster cases on him. I'd argue that we'll gain less information if we keep arguing jay, and that it'll probably be wiser to bring forth new information on other (less discussed) players, and that we should leave jay to the vigilante(s). The problem with that is that we might not even have one. Anyway, if people find jay scummy they'll probably present more cases pinpointing his scummyness, so hopefully that problem will work itself out. Anyway, I have a new candidate for today's lynch. As the new lynch target I present to you, GiygaS! I first caught sight of him when Dirkzor pointed out his attitude toward jay. His first five posts are (more or less) stuff of no value, arguing policy lynches and general advice. It's basically filler, and thusly I won't analyse it. His first interesting post is this one: On December 24 2011 03:28 GiygaS wrote: First of all, shut up about policies people. I know I won't back down on not implementing them, and Cyber_Cheese won't either. This whole discussion on which policy is better was really only good for generating the first bit of discussion, but now we have people ignoring actually important events to talk about this shit. Stop. On Sephiroth (goddamn you were hard to beat in Kingdom Hearts 2  ), I think his post is definitely scummy, and I'm placing my FoS on him, but I am not lynching him yet. I want to see more than one post out of him to decide if I want to lynch him, as I don't believe one singular post should ever be the reason someone is lynched unless it is really extremely crazy. I'm looking forward to his defense and responses to future questions I ask of himHere, he makes it overly clear that he is not jumping on some bandwagon without thinking it through thoroughly first. This is not a bad habit (to think things through), but from experience, only mafia feel the necessity to announce their thoughtfulness explicitly in the thread. A townie will gladly jump on a bandwagon on loose advice based off of one post in order to pressure someone, whereas scum are scared of voting because it attracts unwanted attention. Just before GiygaS posted the message above, Sephirotharg posts (GiygaS was ninja'd): On December 24 2011 03:25 sephirotharg wrote: Well, I'm a bit surprised this didn't happen faster. Shraft, what do you want me to say? I merely made a comment based on my tendencies - if anything, explicitly stating how I play is pro-town. Add to my case the fact that I've already acted pro-town, in generating discussion with the last part of my first post, and I'm not sure how you can justify voting for me. After this post, the oh so thoughtful GiygaS posts: On December 24 2011 03:30 GiygaS wrote: Ninja'd. First of all, you expected to be voted on early? A town would never have that tendency. You made a comment on your tendencies that just sparks excuses for yourself later on down the road, that's NOT pro-town. Your last sentence didn't really "generate discussion", as that info was used as a footnote to other people's posts already. ##Vote sephirotharg Notice how he went from being very hesitant to vote for Sephirotharg to voting for him without providing much thought or reasoning at all. (This happened over a span of two minutes - his first post was made 3:28 and his second 3:30.) This means that all it took was two minutes and a rather contentless post from Seph to turn the thoughful GiygaS into voting-aggressively-without-providing-much-thought-GiygaS. Seems rather odd and inconsistent to me. The only thing that might be interpreted as scummy in Seph's second post is that he tries to proclaim his actions as pro-town, but even taking this into consideration, it seems strange that this would be enough to warrant GiygaS's change in his attitude toward Seph. After placing his vote, GiygaS is content to sit back and wait for the day to end without providing much thought on the cases presented on jay. Nor does he provide any additional thoughts on why he wants sephirotharg lynched. This is what Dirkzor discovered. He simply states: On December 25 2011 04:49 GiygaS wrote: I just read seph's defense and I've skimmed throught his whole jaybrundage thing. I'm not sure on him, and not nearly as much as I am on Sephiroth. All I heard in the defense was literally "I'm not mafia, would mafia do this?" can of defense, let alone how many times he mentions "I'm town", or that he's just a noob with a bad strategy. If I read honestly from him one more time I'm going to scream D: Reading through the rest now. This is just a contentless post attempting to make it appear as though he actually cares about how the lynch is going or making it appear as though he is contributing and actively thinking about choosing the best target for the lynch. Observe that he just uses blanket statements. He doesn't put any effort in pointing out what is wrong with the cases or just what he doesn't like (more specifically) about Seph's defense. On December 25 2011 05:23 GiygaS wrote: Yeah I believe jay in his defense, I'm sticking with seph. This is straight up buddying with jay. There is not a single reason for a townie to ever simply "believe" another player. The only healthy attitude to have as a townie toward other players is to never give them the benefit of the doubt. Always question them. Always demand of them to provide thoughts and reasons to back their statements. To buddy up with someone is foolish. This is pure anti-town play. Only when he gets called out by Seph he provides more food for thought, and even then he provides only general fluff and makes no real effort to refer to anything specific. Here's the post: On December 25 2011 06:49 GiygaS wrote: A lot of the stuff on Jay is twisting words to say he's mafia. While the first evidence against you was indeed flavor text (the lurker thing), most of he stuff on you now is how you've reacted to things IMO. Meanwhile Jay only has weird flavor text twisting against him. BTW, I think the reason he hasn't scumhunted yet is there's pretty much him and you on the chopping block. That and I just get a tone of voice thing in yours that makes it seem you're way more concerned about getting lynched than Jay is, which I usually associate with a mafia. To conclude: GiygaS is a scummily scummy scum! When day turns to night, I want his body to hang on the gallows of Liquidia! ##Vote GiygaS | ||
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