Mr. Wiggles Mini Mafia I - Page 13

On December 27 2011 03:01 Dirkzor wrote:


The reason for me to make the long fluffy post about who had voted for seph, and why, was because i wanted to see the timeline for the wagon on Seph. The conclusion i made was rather short but I still feel it gave me an overview over how it went down. The reason I didn't go more in-depth was that i ran out of time. I was getting ready for christmas and was leaving after that.

I agree that some of my other post are kinda useless toward generating real discussion but can be perceived as such. I will do better!

On December 25 2011 22:20 Dirkzor wrote:
GiygaS:

I would like to kill him. It would atleast be very interesting to see what he flips. (Wow batman slow down... It's ALWAYS interesting what people flip... O_o)

+ Show Spoiler +
As i wrote earlier (see spoiler) he jumped on the Seph wagon prette early without much reasoning. He don't want to vote on a person with just 1 post but immediatly after sephs 2nd post he votes for him with not much more to go after then after the first post.
I thought he was scum after the first post, it was confirmed (for me) in the second post, for the reasons I entailed in that post. Why is that so hard to believe?
After this he have a few post with nothing in them. Then he is gone for almost 24hours and comes back posting this:


He admits that he just skimmed trough "the whole jaybrundage thing" but in the same post comes to the conclusion that Seph is more scummy than Jay. The reasoning for thinking Seph is scum is okay, but not very in-depth considering how much Seph had actually written to defend himself at this point.
I didn't come to the conclusion that Seph was more scummy, I came to the conclusion that he WAS scummy (you must have agreed considering you voted for him too.) I did say I only skimmed through the jay thing because I was saying that I was going to read through it and give my thoughts, which I did in the next post 30 minutes later. I said I was going to post my thoughts, and the throughts weren't really all that in-depth in my mind either that Jay wasn't AS scummy as seph, of course, now I have my doubts on him based off seph's results, going to be looking through his filter some.
The last post just screams scumbuddy to me. No reasoning. No logic. Just a statement to further enhance the image that Jay is a good guy.
How does it scream scumbuddy? I posted my thoughts that I didn't think Jay was as scummy as Seph, that's it that's all. I'll be honest, I was tunelling on Seph, which I won't do again.


This post is to me a null read. But i'll run over it anyway. The first part (bolded) makes perfectly sense to me. GiygaS argues that the case on Jay is mostly twisting words and then acknowledges that the case on Seph is similar but to him its more _how_ seph responded then what was the actual case. Again i would have liked to see more in-depth analysis. How did Seph react to make you think he was scum? How did Jay react better?
Last part of the post is again defending Jay on why he hasn't scumhunted (besides Seph). At this early stage of the game why would you defend someone? It just strikes me as weird since it is hard to get a read this early.
Sorry, I'll be more in-depth with my thoughts from now on *salute*

All in all not much was done from his side on day1. Would we have missed him if he had not posted at all? (yes he had a few post regarding lynch policy but those are useless) He pushed gently towards Seph in the beginning not overcommiting. Then later comes back and push Seph again without going all out crazy bananas mega case. Small nudges to get wagon on seph to continue while taking of spotlight from potential scumbuddy Jay.

On December 27 2011 03:06 Shraft wrote:
If we're going to win this, there are some players that'll have to start being a lot more active (I'm looking mainly at hyshes here). In fact town as a whole needs to be a lot more active, or else we're going to find ourselves at lylo in two cycles with insufficient information to work with.

How do you guys feel about jay? Do you still want to off him or do you think that there's better targets? I think his play is more in line with an emotionally invested townie than scum. My scepticism toward the jay lynch probably stems from the lackluster cases on him. I'd argue that we'll gain less information if we keep arguing jay, and that it'll probably be wiser to bring forth new information on other (less discussed) players, and that we should leave jay to the vigilante(s). The problem with that is that we might not even have one. Anyway, if people find jay scummy they'll probably present more cases pinpointing his scummyness, so hopefully that problem will work itself out.

Anyway, I have a new candidate for today's lynch.
As the new lynch target I present to you, GiygaS! I first caught sight of him when Dirkzor pointed out his attitude toward jay.

His first five posts are (more or less) stuff of no value, arguing policy lynches and general advice. It's basically filler, and thusly I won't analyse it.

His first interesting post is this one:

Here, he makes it overly clear that he is not jumping on some bandwagon without thinking it through thoroughly first. This is not a bad habit (to think things through), but from experience, only mafia feel the necessity to announce their thoughtfulness explicitly in the thread. A townie will gladly jump on a bandwagon on loose advice based off of one post in order to pressure someone, whereas scum are scared of voting because it attracts unwanted attention.
This townie won't. I have a policy on myself that I won't lynch somebody off one post unless it's super uber duper scummy, which Seph's was not. I don't agree that only mafia will announce their thoughtfulness as at this point I was trying to slow down the suspicions on Seph until we got another post out of him.

Just before GiygaS posted the message above, Sephirotharg posts (GiygaS was ninja'd):

After this post, the oh so thoughtful GiygaS posts:

Notice how he went from being very hesitant to vote for Sephirotharg to voting for him without providing much thought or reasoning at all. (This happened over a span of two minutes - his first post was made 3:28 and his second 3:30.) This means that all it took was two minutes and a rather contentless post from Seph to turn the thoughful GiygaS into voting-aggressively-without-providing-much-thought-GiygaS. Seems rather odd and inconsistent to me. The only thing that might be interpreted as scummy in Seph's second post is that he tries to proclaim his actions as pro-town, but even taking this into consideration, it seems strange that this would be enough to warrant GiygaS's change in his attitude toward Seph.
While this is strange looking back on it, I will agree, I disagree with your conclusion. In my head at the time, I treated Seph as scum, he was already tunneled in my brain. Everything he said was wrong and scummy, you can see that based off my responses to his contentless post, treating it like it was big content. Again, apologies for tunneling.
After placing his vote, GiygaS is content to sit back and wait for the day to end without providing much thought on the cases presented on jay. Nor does he provide any additional thoughts on why he wants sephirotharg lynched. This is what Dirkzor discovered. He simply states:
I was content because I was out of the house, it's Christmas holidays and I had shopping and a basketball game to prepare for. Not to mention all my free time was on programming an rpg I'm making for computer science.

This is just a contentless post attempting to make it appear as though he actually cares about how the lynch is going or making it appear as though he is contributing and actively thinking about choosing the best target for the lynch. Observe that he just uses blanket statements. He doesn't put any effort in pointing out what is wrong with the cases or just what he doesn't like (more specifically) about Seph's defense.
I'm using blanket statements because I didn't want to point out the countless times it happened. I was trying to make it appear that I cared about the lynch because I did, but like you said I was gone for 24 hours.

This is straight up buddying with jay. There is not a single reason for a townie to ever simply "believe" another player. The only healthy attitude to have as a townie toward other players is to never give them the benefit of the doubt. Always question them. Always demand of them to provide thoughts and reasons to back their statements. To buddy up with someone is foolish. This is pure anti-town play.
I'm going to explain this one sentence post here. I said (or I thought I did at the time) that I was going to look over the jay suspicions, and then I did and I posted my thoughts which were basically that the jay suspicions were null reads.

Only when he gets called out by Seph he provides more food for thought, and even then he provides only general fluff and makes no real effort to refer to anything specific. Here's the post:

Again, I'll be more in-depth with my analysis from now on when I can.

To conclude: GiygaS is a scummily scummy scum! When day turns to night, I want his body to hang on the gallows of Liquidia!

##Vote GiygaS

On December 26 2011 11:24 Grackaroni wrote:

How confident in this lynch are you?
You already explained that you think lynches based purely off of policy are bad so is there something about his play that feels scummy to you or is it because of his lack of contributions.

On December 24 2011 19:54 hyshes wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +



He has indeed. But, as you can see in the spoiler, he is defending himself very well aware of his fault. And a he has said himself, he is not really a noob. He might be a bad player, but that basic mistake he should not be making here.



+ Show Spoiler +

I'm not going to let anyone come in here, screw around with us a bit and then state "I am not a mafia" and get away with it.

##Vote: sephirotharg

On December 25 2011 12:06 hyshes wrote:
@sephirotharg stop contradicting yourself. You clearly aren't a noob.

On December 25 2011 20:59 hyshes wrote:


I did not sheepvote. I'm just not gonna let anyone come in here screw with us and get away with it. Especially when they say they are a noob but clearly aren't. There is no need as town to play so anti-town in a mini setup. Trickery can maybe used in abigger game, but here we have no room for it. And thus, in a mini game i see that as scumplay.

There is no point in making lists atm of who is scum or not. I'm going to wait until we know who the scum shot this night.

On December 25 2011 11:06 sephirotharg wrote:
##Unvote sephirotharg
##Vote jaybrundage

Now that that's done, I'll post my brief thoughts on everyone in the game, because my lynching appears imminent.

Here we go (this post was started several hours ago, bear that in mind):

Grackaroni: I'm getting a green vibe off Grack. He encourages everyone to share, seems to be acting for the town in general and put some thought into his case against me. I'm concerned at his lack of activity recently, and the fact that his case against me seemed to come almost out of nowhere (according to his posts, that is), but I'd still peg him as green.

Adam4167: I'm not entirely sure about Adam. His case against me was somewhat thoughtful, and he seems interested in finding scum. On the other hand he's not worked hard at scumhunting beyond looking at me, and he has dropped off the face of the earth recently.

hyshes: Too little of his to really judge. I'm not sure, mainly because he just jumped on the bandwagon against me, and because he's contributed nothing to the town, but with so few posts I'm not ready to say one way or another yet.

Shraft: I'm feeling like Shraft is a bit more mafia-esque. He seemed quick to vote for me, then didn't really explain himself except for the feeling that my post was "scummy". And when the focus shifts to Jay, Shraft seems to mostly ignore his faults and tries to refocus the group on me. Other than that he's not been tremendously active or contributory, which is why I'm leaning mafia for him.

Giygas: I can't get a solid read on Giygas. He appears to be working to find out who the scum is, but not terribly hard. None of his posts have been truly substantive, yet I'm not ready to say he's red yet. In fact, I feel like he's green, but I'd not bet my life on it (lol).

Misder: Green. He's actively working to scumhunt, and has analyzed both of the current contenders for lynching (me and Jay). His actions thus far seem pro-town.

minus_human: 3 posts, none of which deal with the current situation. I've no idea.

Echelon_Tee: Also green. He contributed an analysis of me to the group, two in fact. Come to think of it, he hasn't said anything with regard to jay. Either way, I feel he's interested in finding the actual scum, so I'd say he is green.

Cyber_Cheese: town seems more likely, but I'm not sold on his innocence yet. He puts his FoS on me early and then just watches events unfold, until the case comes up against Jay. He hops on the bandwagon pretty quickly there. I feel that a townie would have taken a closer look at me than he did. That said, I'm leaning towards town for him.

jaybrundage: You know my feelings with regard to him.

Dirkzor: Feels green to me. He does vote for me quickly, this is true. But later he runs down reasons for everyone's votes and tries to spur discussion about who to lynch. Nothing sticks out to me, so he seems town.

So the three I'd peg as mafia, at this point in time, are: jay, shraft, and one of the lurkers (hyshes or minus_human).

On December 25 2011 07:07 sephirotharg wrote:


Well, sure. Giygas didn't know what to think. Others understood it, mainly Misder, who told everyone we should consider it null. I've also laid out my reasons for voting for myself. So this is just a difference of opinion here.



Hypocrisy. The only times you have been active are 1) when you were pursuing my lynch and 2) when you yourself are the focus of scrutiny. Other than that, you have been lurking. You say you want an active town, and defy that with your actions. Are you really town then?



I agree, lying about the deadline would be dumb. Which is why I'm calling you out on it. If you had actually made a mistake, you would have apologized, or acknowledged the fact shortly thereafter. Instead you attack Misder and myself in the space of one post, without mentioning your "mistake" at all. Seems fishy to me. And I'm not going to let you get away with merely saying "defense was lackluster". If you really think so, why don't you analyze it? This strikes me as the kind of generality that a mafia would say. Quoting Emerson was flavor, nothing more. Is it a stretch? Maybe. Does it make me mafia? No.



Poor grammar aside, this is an outright lie. I count 12 posts from you as of this reply. Of these 12, the first 3 are pregame fluff. The next 4 come in the space of a couple of hours, and deal primarily with my first post. The next 5 come about 17 hours later by my count, and are focused on defending yourself. That's only 9 posts in the actual game (two or three of which are one-liners), and significant gaps between the posts. Sure, you have to sleep, that's fine. But 9 posts in 2 days of play does not seem active to me, especially given the content of said posts.



You are incorrect here. I said previously that I was suspicious of anyone that voted so quickly for me - in that context, specifically Dirk, Shraft and Giygas. That was on page 5, however, and I laid out my case for you on page 9. The time gap between those pages was what, a day or so? Plenty of time for my opinions to change and solidify. After seeing the others' case on you, I looked back at your filter and found you to be rather scummy. So I laid out my case against you. Rest assured, you were not the only one I looked at, however, and you aren't the only one I have suspicions about. And you are ignoring the fact that at the end of my case against you I specifically call out Shraft as another suspicious person. Dirk and Giygas I'm less sure of, and therefore I'm not willing at this time to reveal my thoughts.

On December 27 2011 05:36 Shraft wrote:
There is no need for you to post your thoughts about everyone in the game. Telling us who you think is town is irrelevant (and even anti town). We are not interested in who you trust and who you don't. If everyone outs their time reads and if there's people that are town and are believed to be town by multiple players, it's like painting a big fucking target on their back for mafia to hit. Instead of writing small analyses on every player in the game, focus on the one player who seems scummiest to you, and write a good case. Writing small posts about every player doesn't benefit town in any way.

On December 27 2011 05:54 GiygaS wrote:

Mafia knows who's town and who's not. :/ If people can come to a consensus on who's townish for now, how is that a bad thing? I want people's opinions on this before I post the rest, for obvious reasons of my time.

On December 27 2011 11:35 Adam4167 wrote:
Now that ive caught up on the thread:

Giygas: I find your analysis interesting and insightful. I am concerned with how you’ve switched from “I believe jay in his defense” and “your tone makes it sound like your more concerned about avoiding a lynch (aimed at seph)” to your more recent posts of “I agree with seph” and “sephs final posts are seemingly hitting spot on (in regards to sephs’ case on jay)”.
This is a dramatic turn around from your opinions on day 1. Are you basing this entirely off of sephs flip or has something changed between then and now?