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On June 28 2011 14:26 DropBear wrote:
2. Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 12:21 Sinani201 wrote:On June 28 2011 12:15 sinani206 wrote:
Blues should play however and whenever they want. I shouldn't even have to mention that the townie is the most important role in the game. Analysis wins games, not blues. Let's get some pressure going.
I'm pretty annoying, so I'm going to pressure ##Vote: Sinani201 into being active because I know how much time he spends sitting at his computer and I don't want him to die from lurker KP his first game.
If someone dies from lurker KP, do they get banlisted? You're already voting for me? First off, I am not Sinani201. I'm Nisani201. Second of all, if you want me to make a post, you could have asked nicely. I don't have anything to contribute yet. I'm reading every single post, and when I feel like I have enough information, I will contribute. This little exchange confuses me. Why was it necessary to do this? Scumbuddies I wonder, trying to keep each other from being lurker targets? This early matey stuff reminds me of Irish_Punk13 in XXXIX. We all know what alignment he ended up flipping. Voting Edward the 1st.
You're right, the exchange wasn't necessary. But he wanted someone new to talk, and he knew that I was online at the time.
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United States22154 Posts
A pro-town atmosphere is one in which it is possible to scumhunt and read the thread without having to wade through crap. Its explained in Ver's town guide, but basically it means no mud flinging, no beating dead horses, avoiding unjustified OMGUS and generally behaving as gentlemen towards each other. If we do this we can generate and use information, it will also encourage newer posters to post. Thats the theory at least ^_^
To achieve this don't random FoS, treat even stupid ideas with respect (shoot them down, but theres no need to say "God you moron, you suck" just shoot it down) and behave in a way that makes people *want* to post and listen to what you have to say.
Also that post you pointed out is also similar to my post in the first 4 min of Closed Casket Mafia . Its a stylistic choice, and I really like the pictures of the grim reaper (not to mention I have like 12 I had ready for CCM, but then I was killed... ;_;) . Plus I hate lurkers, and I needed a conversation starter, so I chose to talk about them.
Any other questions?
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On June 28 2011 14:36 VisceraEyes wrote:
I enjoy how GMarshal included Palmar on the Vet list, yet his first game was my first game as well. Yes, he had a strong showing for Mafia that game...but in all honesty, scum won from an inactive town. I wonder what motivation GMarshal has putting a new player like Palmar (if you'd like to see an example of his 'stellar town play', may I direct you to PTP?) in the 'Vet' side of that list. He's certainly no vet as far as I'm concerned.
Palmar is not in this game, he submitted /out soon before the game started.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=237124¤tpage=6#109
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United States22154 Posts
On June 28 2011 14:36 VisceraEyes wrote:
I enjoy how GMarshal included Palmar on the Vet list, yet his first game was my first game as well. Yes, he had a strong showing for Mafia that game...but in all honesty, scum won from an inactive town. I wonder what motivation GMarshal has putting a new player like Palmar (if you'd like to see an example of his 'stellar town play', may I direct you to PTP?) in the 'Vet' side of that list. He's certainly no vet as far as I'm concerned.
I thought he played well, is that going to be a point of contention?
Sure he fucked up in PTP, but he *did* nail me when I was happily leading the town to do my bidding. In fact without him being resurrected the town would have assuredly lost. Your opinions are your own, I made some opinionated calls on that list, which I am more than happy to defend.
Fun fact, scum want to *avoid* being in the vet section of that list, as thats where the pressure is going to be when the vets start dying. Much like DB begged to be taken off the zodiac list in PTP, any mafia up there are now going to start second guessing their shots, as they don't want to expose themselves.
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On June 28 2011 14:15 Sinani201 wrote:
Sorry, bad formatting.
Please change my name on the player list to "Nisani201 (Sinani201)" as that is what I should be known as throughout the game
Did it, kind of. When you get your name perma changed I will fully update it.
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Pro-Town atmosphere would ideally be:
- No taking lead.
Being a "leader" seems really scummy to me. I just have this innate bias that leaders are mafia, and even though there is quite a slim chance of them being scum, if they are, town has already lost.
- No spamming.
As has been mentioned before, all spamming does is derail town. It makes posts hard to find and confuses people so that scum are harder to analyse and pin for what they really are.
- Active scumhunting.
Scumhunting is obviously very pro-town. It gives the town a good discussion point and helps (obviously) find mafia. No reason not to do this.
- No lurking.
Lurking is confusing for all players who aren't lurking. It makes you hard to analyse. Obviously with all the anti-lurking abilities in this game, it isn't much of an issue, but keep this in mind.
That pretty much covers it. If anyone has any additions, feel free to share. Keep all of these points in mind when posting and analyzing.
Off to play some SotIS and then go to sleep. Probably won't check the thread until morning. Good night folks!
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On June 28 2011 14:38 GMarshal wrote:
A pro-town atmosphere is one in which it is possible to scumhunt and read the thread without having to wade through crap. Its explained in Ver's town guide, but basically it means no mud flinging, no beating dead horses, avoiding unjustified OMGUS and generally behaving as gentlemen towards each other. If we do this we can generate and use information, it will also encourage newer posters to post. Thats the theory at least ^_^
To achieve this don't random FoS, treat even stupid ideas with respect (shoot them down, but theres no need to say "God you moron, you suck" just shoot it down) and behave in a way that makes people *want* to post and listen to what you have to say.
Also that post you pointed out is also similar to my post in the first 4 min of Closed Casket Mafia . Its a stylistic choice, and I really like the pictures of the grim reaper (not to mention I have like 12 I had ready for CCM, but then I was killed... ;_;) . Plus I hate lurkers, and I needed a conversation starter, so I chose to talk about them.
Any other questions?
Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. Beating dead horses I can agree with, as with behaving like gentlemen and mud flinging. If you eliminate unjusitified OMGUS votes my entire town play just disappeared, I always just attack people who call me and other relative newcomers bad lol.
I hadn't seen the Closed Casket game, fair enough. Get back to reaping sir!
What do you think about the exchange between Henry VI and Edward I?
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United States22154 Posts
On June 28 2011 14:46 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 14:38 GMarshal wrote:
A pro-town atmosphere is one in which it is possible to scumhunt and read the thread without having to wade through crap. Its explained in Ver's town guide, but basically it means no mud flinging, no beating dead horses, avoiding unjustified OMGUS and generally behaving as gentlemen towards each other. If we do this we can generate and use information, it will also encourage newer posters to post. Thats the theory at least ^_^
To achieve this don't random FoS, treat even stupid ideas with respect (shoot them down, but theres no need to say "God you moron, you suck" just shoot it down) and behave in a way that makes people *want* to post and listen to what you have to say.
Also that post you pointed out is also similar to my post in the first 4 min of Closed Casket Mafia . Its a stylistic choice, and I really like the pictures of the grim reaper (not to mention I have like 12 I had ready for CCM, but then I was killed... ;_;) . Plus I hate lurkers, and I needed a conversation starter, so I chose to talk about them.
Any other questions? Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. Beating dead horses I can agree with, as with behaving like gentlemen and mud flinging. If you eliminate unjusitified OMGUS votes my entire town play just disappeared, I always just attack people who call me and other relative newcomers bad lol. I hadn't seen the Closed Casket game, fair enough. Get back to reaping sir! What do you think about the exchange between Henry VI and Edward I?
I haven't read anything sinister into it, as I see it the Sinani twins are close friends, and to me it looks like casual banter/poking fun. It might be revealing later, when I have a stronger read on them, but as of right now I just see it as two pals fooling around. You've made your opinion of their exchange clear.
What do you think of VisceraEyes being so upset at you being included as a "vet" in my list?
Have you formed an opinion about ym yet, if so, what is it?
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On June 28 2011 14:42 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 14:36 VisceraEyes wrote:
I enjoy how GMarshal included Palmar on the Vet list, yet his first game was my first game as well. Yes, he had a strong showing for Mafia that game...but in all honesty, scum won from an inactive town. I wonder what motivation GMarshal has putting a new player like Palmar (if you'd like to see an example of his 'stellar town play', may I direct you to PTP?) in the 'Vet' side of that list. He's certainly no vet as far as I'm concerned.
I thought he played well, is that going to be a point of contention? Sure he fucked up in PTP, but he *did* nail me when I was happily leading the town to do my bidding. In fact without him being resurrected the town would have assuredly lost. Your opinions are your own, I made some opinionated calls on that list, which I am more than happy to defend. Fun fact, scum want to *avoid* being in the vet section of that list, as thats where the pressure is going to be when the vets start dying. Much like DB begged to be taken off the zodiac list in PTP, any mafia up there are now going to start second guessing their shots, as they don't want to expose themselves.
GM, the whole idea of you making a list like that is to discuss it. I'm not attacking you, so there isn't anything to defend. I disagreed with your choice and I made my opinion known.
If you're gonna step up to bat, be ready to swing sir...that's all I'm sayin. If we as a town are going to follow you (don't you even pretend you're not bucking for town leadership at this point  ), I for one want to make absolutely sure there's no ulterior motive behind the things you say. Call me paranoid, but I trusted BC in PTP and it bit me in the ass...in a big way.
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Okay, I'm going to go completely against everything that's been said so far. Mafia are not dumb. They are very likely NOT going to lurk in this game. People should NOT be shooting into the lurker list until later or only if this becomes a real problem.
You guys can argue WIFOM all you want, but I'm willing to bet mafia won't find themselves in the lurker list any time soon.
Also we shall not make any lists this game. We will discuss 2-3 players at a time and leave blues to act on their own.
I shall start discussing YM. You pretty much started being agressive as always, but I feel after Mafia XLII you must have learned already that this is gonna lead us to endless confusion, no? My opinion is that you are abusing your town meta this game, throwing pointless flawed acusations like there's no tomorrow. Makes a lot of sense as scum trying to hide their colors doesn't it?
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EBWODP
in XLII...it's pretty obvious I didn't trust him in PTP LMAO
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On June 28 2011 13:38 Varpulis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 13:34 hiro protagonist wrote:
Ok, chaos, he is a list:
GMarshal
youngminii
Jackal58
~OpZ~
Mr. Wiggles
Kenpachi
these are the most skilled/vets players in this game. Fun fact: GMarshal has never been lynched as town. Another fun fact: Mr. Wiggles has been mafia the last 2 games I played with him.
Why the fuck do you have Kenpachi on the "skilled vets" list? He doesn't do shit all game, so mafia never bothers to kill him until they've already killed everybody useful. This is a fact. Put him on the intermediate list, if anywhere. If the lurker list mechanic is targeting one specific person, it's Kenpachi.
I really have to agree here. I played one game with him and it just... was painful waiting for him to speak.
However, iirc, he wasn't too bad at finding scum.
On June 28 2011 13:40 chaos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 13:37 Torqez wrote:On June 28 2011 13:22 chaos13 wrote:
Would somebody mind assembling a list of the skilled/veteran players for myself and the others who are not familiar with all the names in the roster? A 'priority list', if you will, of players mafia are likely to kill first. Odd post. How does this help us who are new to TL anyway? Roles are all randomised. So given that there are some players with better analytical skills than others, we can expect to have some in town and some in mafia, obviously.Like someone else said, it's just painting targets though. Plus, with the Lurker List (this is new to me btw), everyone should be actively involved anyway with the way they see the game devloping. This is exactly what makes it effective. Because, if the veteran/experienced players are town, they are likely to be shot early on by mafia. The mafia players will still be alive, however, (provided they haven't been lynched/vigi shot, and depending on their skill level they will probably be easily able to avoid this) and therefore when you have one or two skilled players who have not been killed early on, you need to start looking really closely at their posts because it is that much more likely (based on simple probability) that they are mafia. From that point, you can make a reasonable guess as to their alignment based on analysis.
I don't think a list such as this is necessary.
Not everyone will kill the most experienced players first. Oftentimes, softclaiming players (something I'm terrible for on MS) and obvtown newbs get killed (at least in my experience). Obvtown usually isn't terribly good for scum to keep around unless they are really easy to manipulate, from what I've seen.
This means that the people left alive are not necessarily scum.
Also, WIFOM.
Because people are more prone to expect those vets who are leftover to be scum, I feel that's kind of game-breaking, regardless of their alignments.
Is a Zodiac List different from any other kind of list or is it just from a specific game I haven't stumbled across yet?
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On June 28 2011 14:46 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 14:38 GMarshal wrote:
A pro-town atmosphere is one in which it is possible to scumhunt and read the thread without having to wade through crap. Its explained in Ver's town guide, but basically it means no mud flinging, no beating dead horses, avoiding unjustified OMGUS and generally behaving as gentlemen towards each other. If we do this we can generate and use information, it will also encourage newer posters to post. Thats the theory at least ^_^
To achieve this don't random FoS, treat even stupid ideas with respect (shoot them down, but theres no need to say "God you moron, you suck" just shoot it down) and behave in a way that makes people *want* to post and listen to what you have to say.
Also that post you pointed out is also similar to my post in the first 4 min of Closed Casket Mafia . Its a stylistic choice, and I really like the pictures of the grim reaper (not to mention I have like 12 I had ready for CCM, but then I was killed... ;_;) . Plus I hate lurkers, and I needed a conversation starter, so I chose to talk about them.
Any other questions? Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. Beating dead horses I can agree with, as with behaving like gentlemen and mud flinging. If you eliminate unjusitified OMGUS votes my entire town play just disappeared, I always just attack people who call me and other relative newcomers bad lol. I hadn't seen the Closed Casket game, fair enough. Get back to reaping sir! What do you think about the exchange between Henry VI and Edward I?
Are you giving an excuse to play differently in this game than other games? Perhaps you just want to justify your actions for later in the game, it's okay I'd do it too ^_^
GM I'll answer for Dropbear.
I have indeed formed an opinion of ym and it is one of utmost respect. He is such a lively fellow who takes his time to shoot fireballs at anyone and everyone who posts because as we all know, scum are particularly vulnerable to fire. He seems to be trying to weed out any and all mafia before they can get slip out of sight and cause town to kill itself. I do have one qualm about his posts though, he seems to interchange the words scum and mafia often and this bothers me.
Hyaach I want you to answer me: Why did you first speak out and say "blues should not kill whoever they want" and then retract your statement by saying "blues should kill whoever they feel is scummy"? Did you get scared when we called you out on it? Did you decide not to post anymore because you've attracted too much attention? What's your opinion of me, am I a quack or am I being helpful to town? Don't forget to post your reasons, ta <3
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Oh lawd Lanaia -__-
I'm sorry if I sound rude, I'm really not trying to be, but if you're wondering what a Zodiac list is just Google it.
I dont want there to be 2 pages full of nothing but Zodiac discussion like in PTP.
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United States22154 Posts
On June 28 2011 14:54 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 14:42 GMarshal wrote:On June 28 2011 14:36 VisceraEyes wrote:
I enjoy how GMarshal included Palmar on the Vet list, yet his first game was my first game as well. Yes, he had a strong showing for Mafia that game...but in all honesty, scum won from an inactive town. I wonder what motivation GMarshal has putting a new player like Palmar (if you'd like to see an example of his 'stellar town play', may I direct you to PTP?) in the 'Vet' side of that list. He's certainly no vet as far as I'm concerned.
I thought he played well, is that going to be a point of contention? Sure he fucked up in PTP, but he *did* nail me when I was happily leading the town to do my bidding. In fact without him being resurrected the town would have assuredly lost. Your opinions are your own, I made some opinionated calls on that list, which I am more than happy to defend. Fun fact, scum want to *avoid* being in the vet section of that list, as thats where the pressure is going to be when the vets start dying. Much like DB begged to be taken off the zodiac list in PTP, any mafia up there are now going to start second guessing their shots, as they don't want to expose themselves. GM, the whole idea of you making a list like that is to discuss it. I'm not attacking you, so there isn't anything to defend. I disagreed with your choice and I made my opinion known. If you're gonna step up to bat, be ready to swing sir...that's all I'm sayin. If we as a town are going to follow you (don't you even pretend you're not bucking for town leadership at this point ), I for one want to make absolutely sure there's no ulterior motive behind the things you say. Call me paranoid, but I trusted BC in PTP and it bit me in the ass...in a big way.
Didn't you kill BC in PTP?
I'm happy to discuss the list, but clearly if I thought palmar deserved to be on there I'm going to defend my choice, thats *how* we discuss, you say "I disagree with ___ because of X Y and Z" and I say, "No you are mistaken because of A, F and M". So there is something to defend ^_^
As for town leadership, its a means to an end. I'm going to kill scum, that is the goal, to achieve that I need the town's help, so I'm willing to "lead" as long as its getting scum killed. Leadership is not a goal in and of itself, its a way to help us win. To kill scum, yes I need the rest of the town to be working together well. I don't care if I write the analysis that pegs scum or you do, or a newbie does, I care that we follow that analysis to a successful lynch.
If you want to consider me a leader then you are welcome to, all I promise to do is make my opinions clear and do my very best to kill mafia, nothing more, nothing less.
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On June 28 2011 14:55 sandroba wrote:
Okay, I'm going to go completely against everything that's been said so far. Mafia are not dumb. They are very likely NOT going to lurk in this game. People should NOT be shooting into the lurker list until later or only if this becomes a real problem.
You guys can argue WIFOM all you want, but I'm willing to bet mafia won't find themselves in the lurker list any time soon.
Also we shall not make any lists this game. We will discuss 2-3 players at a time and leave blues to act on their own.
I shall start discussing YM. You pretty much started being agressive as always, but I feel after Mafia XLII you must have learned already that this is gonna lead us to endless confusion, no? My opinion is that you are abusing your town meta this game, throwing pointless flawed acusations like there's no tomorrow. Makes a lot of sense as scum trying to hide their colors doesn't it?
It does make a lot of sense but I seriously just have to throw it out there:
My scum play is even worse than my town play, if you can imagine.
You say I've thrown around pointless flawed accusations but I haven't really, in XLII I tunneled 2 people with lengthy analyses but this game I've done no such thing, nothing of the sort although I am trying to maintain the same level of aggressiveness.
I agree with you that arguing WIFOM is stupid though. Who gives a flying fuck who the mafia are gonna shoot on that list (well the medic does but discussing it isn't going to help), all you're going to do is waste valuable time and space and confuse everyone and everything.
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On June 28 2011 14:53 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 14:46 DropBear wrote:On June 28 2011 14:38 GMarshal wrote:
A pro-town atmosphere is one in which it is possible to scumhunt and read the thread without having to wade through crap. Its explained in Ver's town guide, but basically it means no mud flinging, no beating dead horses, avoiding unjustified OMGUS and generally behaving as gentlemen towards each other. If we do this we can generate and use information, it will also encourage newer posters to post. Thats the theory at least ^_^
To achieve this don't random FoS, treat even stupid ideas with respect (shoot them down, but theres no need to say "God you moron, you suck" just shoot it down) and behave in a way that makes people *want* to post and listen to what you have to say.
Also that post you pointed out is also similar to my post in the first 4 min of Closed Casket Mafia . Its a stylistic choice, and I really like the pictures of the grim reaper (not to mention I have like 12 I had ready for CCM, but then I was killed... ;_;) . Plus I hate lurkers, and I needed a conversation starter, so I chose to talk about them.
Any other questions? Ok thanks for clearing that up for me. Beating dead horses I can agree with, as with behaving like gentlemen and mud flinging. If you eliminate unjusitified OMGUS votes my entire town play just disappeared, I always just attack people who call me and other relative newcomers bad lol. I hadn't seen the Closed Casket game, fair enough. Get back to reaping sir! What do you think about the exchange between Henry VI and Edward I? I haven't read anything sinister into it, as I see it the Sinani twins are close friends, and to me it looks like casual banter/poking fun. It might be revealing later, when I have a stronger read on them, but as of right now I just see it as two pals fooling around. You've made your opinion of their exchange clear. What do you think of VisceraEyes being so upset at you being included as a "vet" in my list? Have you formed an opinion about ym yet, if so, what is it?
? I can't find anything Viscera said about me. He got upset about Palmar being on the list. Could you link me?
I see youngminii as being the same as he was in Surprisingly Normal Mini 3, aggressive and pushing people. His thinking on you mirrored my own, to be honest.
On June 28 2011 11:57 youngminii wrote:
Good post GMarshal, I wasn't aware scum were targeting lurkers too this game. It's almost as if they're a 3rd party faction. I like how you make a giant warning against lurkers when the game itself is designed to punish them.
And hiro for immediately backing you. YM is correct I feel on his analysis of the plan. Telling Mafia precisely what to do to avoid being shot isn't really a good idea imo.
On June 28 2011 12:20 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 12:13 hiro protagonist wrote:
Sup town!
I am 100% behind Gmarshal about lurkers/trolls. that is all I have to say about that.
so everyone, lets get into it: towns lurker KP should be used once any lurker list is up. As such, I doubt very much that we will need to do a policy lynch on lurkers (which is something I almost always advocate).
Conversely: mafia, with the lurker mod on, will try and be spammy. Vigs, please,please,PLEASE, just shoot anyone that is cluttering up the thread with nonsense.
Do not do this, Vig you should be targeting who they feel is scum, not anyone that is spammy. First off, scum are not stupid, they won't be spamming up the thread for the sake of spamming the thread. Second, by saying "just shoot anyone that is cluttering up the thread with nonsense" in the thread will obviously signal scum to be very delicate and careful with their posting. FoS on you for this, it's a very flawed plan, everyone knows what a lurker is and what's not, if someone appears to be spammy and their playstyle lines up with scum then go ahead and shoot them but as soon as you start directing who the Vig should hit publically is when mafia get an advantage.
I see someone who is known for being aggressive putting pressure on people. My early call on youngminii is town.
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United States22154 Posts
@Palmar, I was referring to this although "upset" may be too strong a word.
Also Hi sand!
Oh and YM, your answer to the question I asked DB made me giggle <3
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United States22154 Posts
On June 28 2011 14:55 sandroba wrote:
Okay, I'm going to go completely against everything that's been said so far. Mafia are not dumb. They are very likely NOT going to lurk in this game. People should NOT be shooting into the lurker list until later or only if this becomes a real problem.
You guys can argue WIFOM all you want, but I'm willing to bet mafia won't find themselves in the lurker list any time soon.
Also we shall not make any lists this game. We will discuss 2-3 players at a time and leave blues to act on their own.
I shall start discussing YM. You pretty much started being agressive as always, but I feel after Mafia XLII you must have learned already that this is gonna lead us to endless confusion, no? My opinion is that you are abusing your town meta this game, throwing pointless flawed acusations like there's no tomorrow. Makes a lot of sense as scum trying to hide their colors doesn't it?
Mafia may or may not lurk, new mafia have a tendency to lurk out of fear, this isn't a crackpot theory, its a fact. And lurkers only hurt town, I'm happy to see them dead, as they aren't helping and aren't analyzable. All they do is give mafia easy lynches, I'd rather see them shot early than worry about mafia pushing a lynch on one at LYLO. Basically town lurkers are as good as traitors, which means I have no regrets when they die. None.
I don't agree with your accusation of YM, from reading another game of his where he was mafia (XXX maybe?) what I saw of his scum play showed a less aggressive, more subdued YM. I don't want to base much on meta, so I'm waiting to see how he handles himself before coming to a real decision, although based exclusively on meta considerations I would judge him to be town atm.
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@GM
At any rate, 201 is correct, Palmar DID /out before the game started. He'll either be Mod-killed or replaced before Day 2, I totally forgot.
Aside from adding LSB to the vet list, which Wiggles already suggested, I have no problems with your list. :D
NOW
What do we do with it? We've pretty much unanimously decided that blues will be acting on their own with VERY limited guidance from the rest of town. Should we just go down the list and start asking people their opinions on each one? Or is that just something to look at once people start dying?
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EPT
