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On July 31 2012 15:46 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 15:35 GwSC wrote:That is funny. I don't recall Phelps suddenly taking 5 seconds off his personal best times when he was winning. Even more relevant is her last split in the 400m IM. Last 100m .03 slower than Lochte, with the last 50m FASTER than Lochte did in his own 400m IM. Bottom line is this means that YE had significantly more in the tank, quite possibly multiple seconds or more. I'm certainly not going to accuse her of doping but there is no doubt it is eyebrow raising to say the least.
Sure, but olympic testing is rigorous and that's the only proof we have. Even if she was on illegal drugs that'd still be impressive to me. In any case, she hasn't even beat the WR *yet* which was set by an american.
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On July 31 2012 15:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 15:46 L_Master wrote:On July 31 2012 15:35 GwSC wrote:That is funny. I don't recall Phelps suddenly taking 5 seconds off his personal best times when he was winning. Even more relevant is her last split in the 400m IM. Last 100m .03 slower than Lochte, with the last 50m FASTER than Lochte did in his own 400m IM. Bottom line is this means that YE had significantly more in the tank, quite possibly multiple seconds or more. I'm certainly not going to accuse her of doping but there is no doubt it is eyebrow raising to say the least. Sure, but olympic testing is rigorous and that's the only proof we have. Even if she was on illegal drugs that'd still be impressive to me. In any case, she hasn't even beat the WR *yet* which was set by an american.
I have to agree with this, while yes "IF" she is on drugs she should get all the bans and disqualifications etc etc etc.
However it was still a human body (granted possibly chemically enhanced) that went that fast which to me is really quite incredible.
If she is found to not be on any drugs or chemicals, its a brilliant thing and hopefully this controversy doesn't tarnish it too much.
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Baa?21247 Posts
On July 31 2012 15:46 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 15:35 GwSC wrote:That is funny. I don't recall Phelps suddenly taking 5 seconds off his personal best times when he was winning. Even more relevant is her last split in the 400m IM. Last 100m .03 slower than Lochte, with the last 50m FASTER than Lochte did in his own 400m IM. Bottom line is this means that YE had significantly more in the tank, quite possibly multiple seconds or more. I'm certainly not going to accuse her of doping but there is no doubt it is eyebrow raising to say the least.
Why does everyone ignore that she swam the other 3/4th of the race over 20 seconds slower than Lochte? She's obviously focusing on freestyle while pacing herself and saving energy for the last burst lol.
Lots of sore losers lol.
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On July 31 2012 16:01 Archybaldie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 15:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:On July 31 2012 15:46 L_Master wrote:On July 31 2012 15:35 GwSC wrote:That is funny. I don't recall Phelps suddenly taking 5 seconds off his personal best times when he was winning. Even more relevant is her last split in the 400m IM. Last 100m .03 slower than Lochte, with the last 50m FASTER than Lochte did in his own 400m IM. Bottom line is this means that YE had significantly more in the tank, quite possibly multiple seconds or more. I'm certainly not going to accuse her of doping but there is no doubt it is eyebrow raising to say the least. Sure, but olympic testing is rigorous and that's the only proof we have. Even if she was on illegal drugs that'd still be impressive to me. In any case, she hasn't even beat the WR *yet* which was set by an american. I have to agree with this, while yes "IF" she is on drugs she should get all the bans and disqualifications etc etc etc. However it was still a human body (granted possibly chemically enhanced) that went that fast which to me is really quite incredible. If she is found to not be on any drugs or chemicals, its a brilliant thing and hopefully this controversy doesn't tarnish it too much.
No.
Its a brilliant thing until proven otherwise. Notive the huge difference.
Disgraceful discussion.
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On July 31 2012 16:13 Kleinmuuhg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 16:01 Archybaldie wrote:On July 31 2012 15:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:On July 31 2012 15:46 L_Master wrote:On July 31 2012 15:35 GwSC wrote:That is funny. I don't recall Phelps suddenly taking 5 seconds off his personal best times when he was winning. Even more relevant is her last split in the 400m IM. Last 100m .03 slower than Lochte, with the last 50m FASTER than Lochte did in his own 400m IM. Bottom line is this means that YE had significantly more in the tank, quite possibly multiple seconds or more. I'm certainly not going to accuse her of doping but there is no doubt it is eyebrow raising to say the least. Sure, but olympic testing is rigorous and that's the only proof we have. Even if she was on illegal drugs that'd still be impressive to me. In any case, she hasn't even beat the WR *yet* which was set by an american. I have to agree with this, while yes "IF" she is on drugs she should get all the bans and disqualifications etc etc etc. However it was still a human body (granted possibly chemically enhanced) that went that fast which to me is really quite incredible. If she is found to not be on any drugs or chemicals, its a brilliant thing and hopefully this controversy doesn't tarnish it too much. No. Its a brilliant thing until proven otherwise. Notive the huge difference. Disgraceful discussion.
Yep i phrased that poorly, i agree with you.
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On July 31 2012 16:13 Kleinmuuhg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 16:01 Archybaldie wrote:On July 31 2012 15:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:On July 31 2012 15:46 L_Master wrote:On July 31 2012 15:35 GwSC wrote:That is funny. I don't recall Phelps suddenly taking 5 seconds off his personal best times when he was winning. Even more relevant is her last split in the 400m IM. Last 100m .03 slower than Lochte, with the last 50m FASTER than Lochte did in his own 400m IM. Bottom line is this means that YE had significantly more in the tank, quite possibly multiple seconds or more. I'm certainly not going to accuse her of doping but there is no doubt it is eyebrow raising to say the least. Sure, but olympic testing is rigorous and that's the only proof we have. Even if she was on illegal drugs that'd still be impressive to me. In any case, she hasn't even beat the WR *yet* which was set by an american. I have to agree with this, while yes "IF" she is on drugs she should get all the bans and disqualifications etc etc etc. However it was still a human body (granted possibly chemically enhanced) that went that fast which to me is really quite incredible. If she is found to not be on any drugs or chemicals, its a brilliant thing and hopefully this controversy doesn't tarnish it too much. No. Its a brilliant thing until proven otherwise. Notive the huge difference. Disgraceful discussion.
What about FloJo?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_100_metres_world_record_progression
11.07 1.2 Wyomia Tyus United States Mexico City, Mexico October 15, 1968[1]
11.07 0.2 Renate Stecher East Germany Munich, West Germany September 2, 1972[1]
11.04 0.6 Inge Helten West Germany Fürth, West Germany June 13, 1976[1]
11.01 0.6 Annegret Richter West Germany Montreal, Canada July 25, 1976[1]
10.88 2.0 Marlies Oelsner East Germany Dresden, East Germany July 1, 1977[1]
10.88 1.9 Marlies Göhr East Germany Karl-Marx-Stadt, East Germany July 9, 1982[1]
10.81 1.7 Marlies Göhr East Germany Berlin, East Germany June 8, 1983[1]
10.79 0.6 Evelyn Ashford United States US Air Force Academy, United States July 3, 1983[1]
10.76 1.7 Evelyn Ashford United States Zürich, Switzerland August 22, 1984[1]
10.49 0.0* Florence Griffith-Joyner United States Indianapolis, United States July 16, 1988[1]
I'm assuming 2008 had those funky suits, so here's a record of the progression
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_record_progression_400_metres_individual_medley
The times have dropped a lot over the years, so it's hard to say.
The 2000 time was 4:34, Ye was 4:28.34, I'm sure her competitors were under the 2000 time.
And Michael Phelps record was 4:03 in 2008, 4:08 in 2004, so she's not physically dominant overall over men (which would be very suspicious).
The men's 100m record is ... 46.91 and the 50m is 20.91, and she did 58 or 56? The women's is 52, so she could conceivably be mailing it in for the other 300m.
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On July 31 2012 16:31 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 16:13 Kleinmuuhg wrote:On July 31 2012 16:01 Archybaldie wrote:On July 31 2012 15:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:On July 31 2012 15:46 L_Master wrote:On July 31 2012 15:35 GwSC wrote:That is funny. I don't recall Phelps suddenly taking 5 seconds off his personal best times when he was winning. Even more relevant is her last split in the 400m IM. Last 100m .03 slower than Lochte, with the last 50m FASTER than Lochte did in his own 400m IM. Bottom line is this means that YE had significantly more in the tank, quite possibly multiple seconds or more. I'm certainly not going to accuse her of doping but there is no doubt it is eyebrow raising to say the least. Sure, but olympic testing is rigorous and that's the only proof we have. Even if she was on illegal drugs that'd still be impressive to me. In any case, she hasn't even beat the WR *yet* which was set by an american. I have to agree with this, while yes "IF" she is on drugs she should get all the bans and disqualifications etc etc etc. However it was still a human body (granted possibly chemically enhanced) that went that fast which to me is really quite incredible. If she is found to not be on any drugs or chemicals, its a brilliant thing and hopefully this controversy doesn't tarnish it too much. No. Its a brilliant thing until proven otherwise. Notive the huge difference. Disgraceful discussion. What about FloJo? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_100_metres_world_record_progression11.07 1.2 Wyomia Tyus United States Mexico City, Mexico October 15, 1968[1] 11.07 0.2 Renate Stecher East Germany Munich, West Germany September 2, 1972[1] 11.04 0.6 Inge Helten West Germany Fürth, West Germany June 13, 1976[1] 11.01 0.6 Annegret Richter West Germany Montreal, Canada July 25, 1976[1] 10.88 2.0 Marlies Oelsner East Germany Dresden, East Germany July 1, 1977[1] 10.88 1.9 Marlies Göhr East Germany Karl-Marx-Stadt, East Germany July 9, 1982[1] 10.81 1.7 Marlies Göhr East Germany Berlin, East Germany June 8, 1983[1] 10.79 0.6 Evelyn Ashford United States US Air Force Academy, United States July 3, 1983[1] 10.76 1.7 Evelyn Ashford United States Zürich, Switzerland August 22, 1984[1] 10.49 0.0* Florence Griffith-Joyner United States Indianapolis, United States July 16, 1988[1] I'm assuming 2008 had those funky suits, so here's a record of the progression http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_record_progression_400_metres_individual_medleyThe times have dropped a lot over the years, so it's hard to say. The 2000 time was 4:34, Ye was 4:28.34, I'm sure her competitors were under the 2000 time. And Michael Phelps record was 4:03 in 2008, 4:08 in 2004, so she's not physically dominant overall over men (which would be very suspicious). The men's 100m record is ... 46.91 and the 50m is 20.91, and she did 58 or 56? The women's is 52, so she could conceivably be mailing it in for the other 300m.
My point was innocent until proven otherwise. Not guilty until proven innocent.
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On July 31 2012 16:40 Kleinmuuhg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 16:31 igotmyown wrote:On July 31 2012 16:13 Kleinmuuhg wrote:On July 31 2012 16:01 Archybaldie wrote:On July 31 2012 15:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:On July 31 2012 15:46 L_Master wrote:On July 31 2012 15:35 GwSC wrote:That is funny. I don't recall Phelps suddenly taking 5 seconds off his personal best times when he was winning. Even more relevant is her last split in the 400m IM. Last 100m .03 slower than Lochte, with the last 50m FASTER than Lochte did in his own 400m IM. Bottom line is this means that YE had significantly more in the tank, quite possibly multiple seconds or more. I'm certainly not going to accuse her of doping but there is no doubt it is eyebrow raising to say the least. Sure, but olympic testing is rigorous and that's the only proof we have. Even if she was on illegal drugs that'd still be impressive to me. In any case, she hasn't even beat the WR *yet* which was set by an american. I have to agree with this, while yes "IF" she is on drugs she should get all the bans and disqualifications etc etc etc. However it was still a human body (granted possibly chemically enhanced) that went that fast which to me is really quite incredible. If she is found to not be on any drugs or chemicals, its a brilliant thing and hopefully this controversy doesn't tarnish it too much. No. Its a brilliant thing until proven otherwise. Notive the huge difference. Disgraceful discussion. What about FloJo? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_100_metres_world_record_progression11.07 1.2 Wyomia Tyus United States Mexico City, Mexico October 15, 1968[1] 11.07 0.2 Renate Stecher East Germany Munich, West Germany September 2, 1972[1] 11.04 0.6 Inge Helten West Germany Fürth, West Germany June 13, 1976[1] 11.01 0.6 Annegret Richter West Germany Montreal, Canada July 25, 1976[1] 10.88 2.0 Marlies Oelsner East Germany Dresden, East Germany July 1, 1977[1] 10.88 1.9 Marlies Göhr East Germany Karl-Marx-Stadt, East Germany July 9, 1982[1] 10.81 1.7 Marlies Göhr East Germany Berlin, East Germany June 8, 1983[1] 10.79 0.6 Evelyn Ashford United States US Air Force Academy, United States July 3, 1983[1] 10.76 1.7 Evelyn Ashford United States Zürich, Switzerland August 22, 1984[1] 10.49 0.0* Florence Griffith-Joyner United States Indianapolis, United States July 16, 1988[1] I'm assuming 2008 had those funky suits, so here's a record of the progression http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_record_progression_400_metres_individual_medleyThe times have dropped a lot over the years, so it's hard to say. The 2000 time was 4:34, Ye was 4:28.34, I'm sure her competitors were under the 2000 time. And Michael Phelps record was 4:03 in 2008, 4:08 in 2004, so she's not physically dominant overall over men (which would be very suspicious). The men's 100m record is ... 46.91 and the 50m is 20.91, and she did 58 or 56? The women's is 52, so she could conceivably be mailing it in for the other 300m. My point was innocent until proven otherwise. Not guilty until proven innocent.
That's consistent. It's just that Flojo was never proven guilty, but people have always been very suspicious, since no women's ever come close to matching her results.
Similar with Lance Armstrong, and if you follow baseball, the amazing home runs numbers a bunch of hitters put up in the early 2000s. In the US, everyone's suspicious of any of those hitters, whether they tested positive or not.
The winner of the US olympic 100m trials was formerly banned for testing positive half a decade ago, and now his suspension is over, but we're still suspicious right?
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Nah I chose to stay naive instead of being suspicious. And wasnt Lance Armstrong proven guilty?
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On July 31 2012 16:52 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
Nah I chose to stay naive instead of being suspicious. And wasnt Lance Armstrong proven guilty?
No. See what suspicions can do to someones legacy 
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On July 31 2012 09:13 holdthephone wrote:
Having trouble getting into the flow of things. I just have no clue how NBC organizes their coverage. It's not live, they jump between things almost at random, never repeat what stage the event is at, hardly ever show another country, interviews suck, and the announcers for everything are just awful -- except the gymnastics guy. Website is a fucking mess.
Then there are spoilers on the front page of every news site since it all happened 6 hours prior.
There a stream somewhere that I'm missing out on? You'd think in 2012 I could just pick the sport I wanted to watch and be on my way.
NBC does the jump-around shit on purpose to maximize the viewership on the commercials. So, instead of scheduling an hour block for a particular event or something, they make us sit through the whole thing to catch the actions on hot ticket events such as swimming, gymnastics, and track.
They did show some of the Brits on gymnastics (the entire floor exercise in fact), but probably for drama reasons lol.
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On July 31 2012 16:55 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 16:52 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
Nah I chose to stay naive instead of being suspicious. And wasnt Lance Armstrong proven guilty? No. See what suspicions can do to someones legacy
Whether or not he was doped remove nothing from the winning 7 consecutive Tour de France. People are too prone to worship and hate. No reasonable opinions are made ...
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Huh, weird how we don't have a gymnastics or swimming thread...I guess people are afraid of mod actions or something since it's likely very hard to keep up with all those updates I guess?
Pretty interesting to see the tie for silver in 200m keke.
BUT CHINESE GYMNASTICS TEAM CHAMPS! Who would have thought?! That was pretty awesome, don't regret staying up late to watch it haha.
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
On July 31 2012 16:55 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 16:52 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
Nah I chose to stay naive instead of being suspicious. And wasnt Lance Armstrong proven guilty? No. See what suspicions can do to someones legacy
I don't want to shit up the thread but I was under the impression he'd been charged with doping by the USADA within the last couple of months and stands to be stripped of his tour titles + get hit with a lifetime ban if he can't explain the evidence and testimonials against him?
3 of the 6 guys (these were coaches/medics afaik) named in the conspiracy were already handed lifetime bans too.
Not proven guilty yet, but I think his case is kind of different from many others at this point. Unless you meant that people were suspicious and it looks like many years down the line it might turn out to be true.
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On July 31 2012 16:04 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 15:46 L_Master wrote:On July 31 2012 15:35 GwSC wrote:That is funny. I don't recall Phelps suddenly taking 5 seconds off his personal best times when he was winning. Even more relevant is her last split in the 400m IM. Last 100m .03 slower than Lochte, with the last 50m FASTER than Lochte did in his own 400m IM. Bottom line is this means that YE had significantly more in the tank, quite possibly multiple seconds or more. I'm certainly not going to accuse her of doping but there is no doubt it is eyebrow raising to say the least. Why does everyone ignore that she swam the other 3/4th of the race over 20 seconds slower than Lochte? She's obviously focusing on freestyle while pacing herself and saving energy for the last burst lol. Lots of sore losers lol.
China #1!
+ Show Spoiler +Seriously though, Chinese dive team is awesome.
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On July 31 2012 16:31 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 16:13 Kleinmuuhg wrote:On July 31 2012 16:01 Archybaldie wrote:On July 31 2012 15:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:On July 31 2012 15:46 L_Master wrote:On July 31 2012 15:35 GwSC wrote:That is funny. I don't recall Phelps suddenly taking 5 seconds off his personal best times when he was winning. Even more relevant is her last split in the 400m IM. Last 100m .03 slower than Lochte, with the last 50m FASTER than Lochte did in his own 400m IM. Bottom line is this means that YE had significantly more in the tank, quite possibly multiple seconds or more. I'm certainly not going to accuse her of doping but there is no doubt it is eyebrow raising to say the least. Sure, but olympic testing is rigorous and that's the only proof we have. Even if she was on illegal drugs that'd still be impressive to me. In any case, she hasn't even beat the WR *yet* which was set by an american. I have to agree with this, while yes "IF" she is on drugs she should get all the bans and disqualifications etc etc etc. However it was still a human body (granted possibly chemically enhanced) that went that fast which to me is really quite incredible. If she is found to not be on any drugs or chemicals, its a brilliant thing and hopefully this controversy doesn't tarnish it too much. No. Its a brilliant thing until proven otherwise. Notive the huge difference. Disgraceful discussion. What about FloJo? .
Just as dodgy as all the other womens records from the 80's. It's really unfortunate for all the women's track and field athletes of today, their chances of fame and glory are a lot harder to achieve than on the mens side because so many of those records are practically out of reach, even with all the modern technology and training methods available.
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About Shinwen and why John Leonard calls it 'disturbing', because her last spit was so fast, that means she didn't pace her race well. She paced too slow. It means she could have swum about 2 seconds faster. She could have knocked 7 seconds of her personal best.
This is why it is so much more suspicious than if she didn't have such a fast final split.
China has a disproportionally large number of postitive doping cases in swimming. We know from former doctors that China had institutionalized doping in swimming (EPO and other stuff).
We have seen in the past a whole bunch of new chinese swimmers or runners come out of nowhere, break all the world records, and then disappear. It happened in running during the 1990s.
They still have world records on the 1500m, 3000m and 10k. (notably Wang Junxia).
The 5k one they set back then was broken. And we know now today that in the Kenyan/Ethiopian gene pool there are genes that make exceptional long distance runners. Yet the woman weren't able to break these Chinese records.
In swimming the same thing happened. Only difference is that the swimmers did get caught, using steroids, HGH and EPO.
We also know that on the top level of elite sports, most of the time dopers somehow don't get caught. Only big exception is Ben Johnson (and maybe Floyd Landis). But people there think he was set up. Maybe they injected him one time with the detectable stanzolol instead of the undetectable 'designer doping' tetrahydrogestrinone.
People like Carl Lewis, Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong(well actually he didn't (as a legal person) but his urine sample did), Marian Jones, etc don't test positive. One has to wonder how many labs similar to Balco are out there but completely unknown. And then China who may have it institutionalized, making it much easier. Didn't they go around schools and measure the hands of children to select who would be the best swimmers? If they do that and institionalized doping they can do so much more than what Balco could do. Then they shouldn't be caught unless someone becomes a whistle blower. I'm sure they learned from all the positives they got.
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Maybe there should be a separate sports and games thread for doping in general or doping in the olympics etc :/
@J1.au: yeah the diving team is pretty awesome too. Those two boys are hilarious haha, they interviewed them and one of them also did a pretty funny (not terrible but not great) Michael Jackson impersonation 
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I don't see any reason to knock the website. everything is clearly shown and sorted out and you can find everything really easy. The streams are really well done as well with the british commentary. The nbc coverage on primetime is a bit shaky but they're working with a ton of things and the main public ins't going to care about non us air time for the most part.
the spoiler problems are just bad luck this year with time zones. last Olympics in china worked out pretty well and Canada is in our time zone but london is just in that awkward spot of being 5 hours or so ahead of us making every schedule pretty rough for being able to watch. Its not fun waking up at 10ish in the morning and seeing most of the day half done over there.
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EPT
