|
On September 17 2013 11:12 Pooshlmer wrote:
My solo lanes are garbage. What are the best champs to play when I get forced into those? (Rare, I know) So far I have Karthus. I hear Rumble is good for that as well. Basically someone who can still do decently when losing lane.
zed
sit at tower, farm, and as long as you finish lw + some ad item, you still one shot anyone with less than 2 armor items
|
On September 17 2013 11:12 Pooshlmer wrote:
My solo lanes are garbage. What are the best champs to play when I get forced into those? (Rare, I know) So far I have Karthus. I hear Rumble is good for that as well. Basically someone who can still do decently when losing lane.
Don't go into the mindset of playing someone just for the sake he/she can do decently when losing lane. 
The first thing that helped me improve my utterly horrible mid play was sitting down carefully and try to find my weakness' and strengths, then I asked a mid main to practice a bit and hear his analysis. By finding my weakness' I learned what to improve and by strengths I learned how I could contribute the best until my play in that role got up on par.
For me, a support main; mapawareness, ward timers/placement, enemy jungler "prediction" (as I like to call it) and keeping track of timers was something I had been practicing a lot from my main role. So even tho I would usually get behind in lane, I still had something I could offer the team.
Finally, don't be shy to tell your team you probably need a bit jungler help. Seeing a "lol ok" in chat is better than "omg feeder, uninstall and play tetris!". 
|
On September 15 2013 21:47 Jek wrote:
I'm a bit unsure if this should be posted here or in the TROLLS thread, so please bear with me.
Lately I've been experimenting with Movement Speed quints on any, except for Lee, jungler I play. It have felt really nice, and actually felt like resulting in a slightly faster clear [with a decent leash] due to the faster traveling from camp to camp. The bonus speed, makes for slightly earlier ganks/counter jungling which have caught the opponent off guard quite a few times by now - the ganks feel quite more powerful too since I'm usually faster than the targets.
My question(s) are now:
1) Experience from fellow summoners?
2) Thoughts on pros and cons?
3) Too gimmicky?
The biggest 'con' I've considered would be weakness vs invades and counterganks early due to the slightly lower statistics - but being able to walk away easier somewhat helps, I'd imagine caution should be used against strong duelist junglers. But in so far it haven't really been much of an issue, is this due to opponents not being that keen to read into my setup and punish it by invading/counterganks early in mid gold?
Lastly, is this standard and I'm just really slow at picking things up. :-P
As far as I know they're standard on a lot of junglers, and junglers without jumps/ranged stuns basically need them. (see udyr.) Although I haven't played much jungle since spring, so the meta might have shifted since then.
|
esports agnostic and dota player here: I've been watching bits and pieces of the lcs championships and was wondering what the comeback mechanics are like in LoL. At least in the games I've seen it seems hard to stop the momentum once a lead is gained unless the leading team makes mistakes.
|
Why is the meta (as in AD/Support bot, jungler, AP mid and Bruiser/Tank top) mandatory and so relied upon by LoL players?
|
United States15536 Posts
On September 18 2013 09:55 Clbull wrote:
Why is the meta (as in AD/Support bot, jungler, AP mid and Bruiser/Tank top) mandatory and so relied upon by LoL players?
At one point it was discovered that that was an "optimal strategy" for the time, due to duo lanes getting Dragon control, AD carries being the hardest scaling and weakest early, requiring a buddy, AP mids generally being unable to escape from things (and thus needing the shortest lane) but having burst enough to be effective roamers (that's newer but still), and top laners could be tanky and sel-sufficient away from everything else during the laning phase.
This was seen so often in pro and ladder play that it became ingrained, which wasn't helped by Riot's unconditional support and (to some extent) calcification of this meta and those roles.
That being said, there are some differences in pro play with lane swaps and 1v2s etc. Yet this pattern is seemingly more optimal than any other (tri-lanes, duo jungle, etc.) at least in part due to Riot's design choices enforcing this "meta."
Edit: It's also far easier to teach "one way to play" to new players rather than huge variances.
|
To elaborate slightly:
Every team has a jungler because it's simply suboptimal not to have one. Junglers apply pressure to all three lanes, get farm that no one else is taking, and provide early game buff control and dragon/baron control. Having a 2v1 top lane would make the other top laner unhappy, but enemy mid and bot could be fearless; the top lane would be splitting XP and farm, putting them at a disadvantage compared to a solo lane; and someone would have to take smite anyways.
Back in the early days, people ran whoever wherever. But the high ELO players knew that every team needed an AD carry, primarily for pushing down towers in sieges. ADs were usually played mid, since the shorter distance let them escape more easily. However, mages were a serious threat to carries, and a lot of people didn't really like playing them (with some notable exceptions like Procodoco).
Then people realized that supports were bonkers OP. Soraka was the absolute worst champ to play against, and she was so braindead that anyone could play her. Janna and Taric were also pretty stupid, and release Sona was possibly even easier than Soraka. It was basically impossible to beat an AD/Support lane bottom, while the AD also scaled the best into late game and the support champs all functioned exceptionally without farm. AD/Support vs anything else was untouchable. Bot lane has pretty much always been a 2v2 because of dragon, and since the AD/support pair was the strongest duo lane, it became AD/support bot.
Everything else basically fell out from there: mid and top were solos, and the team needed burst and tankiness. Top tended towards tanks because of the in-lane brushes being favorable to melee champs and the increased lane distance benefiting people who could survive the long trip back to tower, or who needed the lane length to chase down opponents. Mid's shorter distance benefited mages who generally didn't need to chase for a long time, and this was reinforced by the discovery of roaming. This quickly became divine law in every player's mind, not helped at all by RIOT fully embracing this setup in their balance decisions. (Seriously, get rid of IE, nerf armor items pls)
|
On September 18 2013 10:00 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2013 09:55 Clbull wrote:
Why is the meta (as in AD/Support bot, jungler, AP mid and Bruiser/Tank top) mandatory and so relied upon by LoL players? At one point it was discovered that that was an "optimal strategy" for the time, due to duo lanes getting Dragon control, AD carries being the hardest scaling and weakest early, requiring a buddy, AP mids generally being unable to escape from things (and thus needing the shortest lane) but having burst enough to be effective roamers (that's newer but still), and top laners could be tanky and sel-sufficient away from everything else during the laning phase. This was seen so often in pro and ladder play that it became ingrained, which wasn't helped by Riot's unconditional support and (to some extent) calcification of this meta and those roles. That being said, there are some differences in pro play with lane swaps and 1v2s etc. Yet this pattern is seemingly more optimal than any other (tri-lanes, duo jungle, etc.) at least in part due to Riot's design choices enforcing this "meta." Edit: It's also far easier to teach "one way to play" to new players rather than huge variances.
The fact Riot have not only condoned but mandated this makes my blood boil.
LoL would be amazing with more variation. At the moment it's more one dimensional than HotS TvZ and that is saying something.
I mean this is a game that could easily beat Dota 2 if they actually tried to add some sort of gameplay variation like role variety, composition variety, denying, creep stacking, etc.
|
United States15536 Posts
On September 19 2013 01:07 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2013 10:00 AsmodeusXI wrote:On September 18 2013 09:55 Clbull wrote:
Why is the meta (as in AD/Support bot, jungler, AP mid and Bruiser/Tank top) mandatory and so relied upon by LoL players? At one point it was discovered that that was an "optimal strategy" for the time, due to duo lanes getting Dragon control, AD carries being the hardest scaling and weakest early, requiring a buddy, AP mids generally being unable to escape from things (and thus needing the shortest lane) but having burst enough to be effective roamers (that's newer but still), and top laners could be tanky and sel-sufficient away from everything else during the laning phase. This was seen so often in pro and ladder play that it became ingrained, which wasn't helped by Riot's unconditional support and (to some extent) calcification of this meta and those roles. That being said, there are some differences in pro play with lane swaps and 1v2s etc. Yet this pattern is seemingly more optimal than any other (tri-lanes, duo jungle, etc.) at least in part due to Riot's design choices enforcing this "meta." Edit: It's also far easier to teach "one way to play" to new players rather than huge variances. The fact Riot have not only condoned but mandated this makes my blood boil. LoL would be amazing with more variation. At the moment it's more one dimensional than HotS TvZ and that is saying something. I mean this is a game that could easily beat Dota 2 if they actually tried to add some sort of gameplay variation like role variety, composition variety, denying, creep stacking, etc.
Role and composition variety would be welcome, but it doesn't need things like denying and creep stacking. Those are mechanics that just aren't LoL. The mantra here is an oft-repeated one: if you want to play DotA, play DotA. LoL is a very different game.
But yes, it would be nice if the Champion design and balancing didn't so strictly enforce a playstyle.
|
United States23745 Posts
On September 19 2013 01:07 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2013 10:00 AsmodeusXI wrote:On September 18 2013 09:55 Clbull wrote:
Why is the meta (as in AD/Support bot, jungler, AP mid and Bruiser/Tank top) mandatory and so relied upon by LoL players? At one point it was discovered that that was an "optimal strategy" for the time, due to duo lanes getting Dragon control, AD carries being the hardest scaling and weakest early, requiring a buddy, AP mids generally being unable to escape from things (and thus needing the shortest lane) but having burst enough to be effective roamers (that's newer but still), and top laners could be tanky and sel-sufficient away from everything else during the laning phase. This was seen so often in pro and ladder play that it became ingrained, which wasn't helped by Riot's unconditional support and (to some extent) calcification of this meta and those roles. That being said, there are some differences in pro play with lane swaps and 1v2s etc. Yet this pattern is seemingly more optimal than any other (tri-lanes, duo jungle, etc.) at least in part due to Riot's design choices enforcing this "meta." Edit: It's also far easier to teach "one way to play" to new players rather than huge variances. The fact Riot have not only condoned but mandated this makes my blood boil. LoL would be amazing with more variation. At the moment it's more one dimensional than HotS TvZ and that is saying something. I mean this is a game that could easily beat Dota 2 if they actually tried to add some sort of gameplay variation like role variety, composition variety, denying, creep stacking, etc.
Riot isn't trying to beat Dota in a "most complex game" competition. Riot has struck a nice balance between having a game that both appeals to the masses while also being competitive at a high level. The meta diversity comes in the champions that are picked, not the roles themselves. Sure, you'll always have a Mid laner, but the champions that get chosen for that role change over time. Dota already exits for those that want to dive into a more mechanically complex MOBA. Adding denying and creep stacking would make LoL not LoL. I guess my point is I want LoL to be LoL, not Dota.
|
Can someone explain the Lee vs Rumble matchup to me?
I'm level 27 so I'm not sure what advice would be useful right now, but I just faced a rumble as lee for the first time and rumble has been the next champ i intend on buying for a while. I started bead/ward/pots and he started cloth 5. I played rumble a bit during free week and I thought I would have to pressure him early to win the lane, and that my window would close around level 4. I burned through my potions really quickly though and ended up giving first blood because I took a turret shot (this itself happens often).
I sort of won lane, but I felt so dependent on having W/ignite off cooldown to escape his q/fight, respectively. The only times I won a straight up fight were when I had a stolen red buff. How do I play out this matchup?
|
Leesin is not a very good top champion, even if it's doable in solo queue he doesn't scale that well. To my knowledge, Rumble should beat you, you should probably try to push early and get lvl 2 or level 3 before him and just allin him by running to him, E E Q with autos and ignite in between and Q again to finish him if he flashes.If you play passive this isn't very good for you, in a farm lane I'd much rather be a rumble than a leesin.
|
On September 27 2013 11:40 catplanetcatplanet wrote:
Can someone explain the Lee vs Rumble matchup to me?
I'm level 27 so I'm not sure what advice would be useful right now, but I just faced a rumble as lee for the first time and rumble has been the next champ i intend on buying for a while. I started bead/ward/pots and he started cloth 5. I played rumble a bit during free week and I thought I would have to pressure him early to win the lane, and that my window would close around level 4. I burned through my potions really quickly though and ended up giving first blood because I took a turret shot (this itself happens often).
I sort of won lane, but I felt so dependent on having W/ignite off cooldown to escape his q/fight, respectively. The only times I won a straight up fight were when I had a stolen red buff. How do I play out this matchup?
For one have W up everytime he uses Q get out. Never stay in his ult. Also you will wanna pick up a early hexdrinker. Its a god send and lets you 1v1 him.
|
I'm looking to understand the details in mid/top lane itemization. I know it's heavily match-up/champion dependent so I'm looking for a generalization (but still in a detailed way...).
For example, this is what I'm looking for, but for mid and not ADC:
Choosing between BT/IE/Botrk depends a lot on how you want to play the lane.
IE: you choose it for straight up dominance through damage. Lack of lifesteal means you need to clearly end engages and not run extended skirmishes/trades. In the long run, this is also the best for team fight damage. Auto attack reliant champions typically get this (like Caitlyn).
BT: If you get the early vamp scepter for sustaining, then you'll typically lose trades/engages until you have the BF sword. BT is good at boosting burst damage through scaling on abilities, so ability-based ADCs often get this (like Graves). One special case where an AA-reliant champion would get this is if Caitlyn wants to shove waves early with Q, then BT will boost Q damage at the expensive of greater AA damage through crits.
For mid lane, some questions I'm wondering are:
1. Why start Doran's vs Flask? I hear sustain laners like Fizz and Kassadin will get it, but I've seen Ahri's go either way. And what about faerie charm + ward + pots?
2. Which "types" of match-ups are there and how does itemization weigh in? i.e. sustain like chogath, bully like syndra, "survive until 6" like kassadin.
3. When do you want Seraph's over Unholy grail? It seems like so many mid laners prefer chalice into unholy grail these days.
|
I'm no mid master, but I think I can answer 3. Short version: Much of the cost of Seraph's is in raw mana. Unless you can actually use that mana pool, Unholy Grail does everything that Seraph's does and then some.
The goal of both items is to fix all your mana problems forever. Both do that about as well for most champs. So, comparing them in terms of their other benefits, Seraphs gives more raw AP and a shield, but Grail gives MR and (the big thing) 20% CDR. The shield is of moderate utility, not great not bad, but overall Grail is more survivability and 20% CDR generally translates to more damage. Seraphs also requires that you get tear somewhat earlyish.
|
Im having a minor problem in solo Q. Im really questioning my top lane champ pool, i've been forced to play top more recently and it's just not very stable since i havent really played top since low gold.
My pool atm is:
Riven >> Garen >>>>>>>>> Vlad
I just busted out my Riven for the first time in a ton of games and the skills i've polished up from climbing carried over well and it seems like my best top. The champ that concerns me the most is Renekton, how should i deal with him? Should i learn someone specifically for him (doesn't matter if it's not in flavor of the meta like Garen) or just play that matchup? I played Garen into Renekton and it seemed pretty easy (though i think i was just better, i don't really know any VS Renekton matchup well).
|
On October 04 2013 11:34 Ethelis wrote:
Im having a minor problem in solo Q. Im really questioning my top lane champ pool, i've been forced to play top more recently and it's just not very stable since i havent really played top since low gold.
My pool atm is:
Riven >> Garen >>>>>>>>> Vlad
I just busted out my Riven for the first time in a ton of games and the skills i've polished up from climbing carried over well and it seems like my best top. The champ that concerns me the most is Renekton, how should i deal with him? Should i learn someone specifically for him (doesn't matter if it's not in flavor of the meta like Garen) or just play that matchup? I played Garen into Renekton and it seemed pretty easy (though i think i was just better, i don't really know any VS Renekton matchup well).
I don't know what division you're in (I'm guessing at least high gold though), so take what I say with a grain of salt. That being said, honestly I think if Riven is your best then you should stick with Riven. Obviously not every lane is going to be favorable if you just play one champion, but from my experience, I've found that Experience > Matchup. I'm played Darius into Teemo and Lissandra before, and while those may be considered unfavorable match-ups for Darius, I've still beaten my lane.
That being said though, I think when you get in higher divisions, then the actual match-up becomes more important. And if you're where I think you are, then I don't think it'd be bad to have a specific champion to counter pick Renekton. I'd probably do that if you couldn't get Riven to work against Renekton at all.
Just my two cents though.
|
Riven vs Renekton can actually work pretty well. At least i have been wrecked by Riven as Rene, but that might just be that i am not that good. But considering I am now in Diamond (WUWUWUWUWUWU) and i consider my rene toplane at least something i can reliably pick when i have to go top, it is not absurdly bad.
The main problem as Rene vs Riven are the first few levels, where she can bully you around. If Riven can get a large enough advantage out of that, it is really hard to get back into the lane. If you just let the first few levels be a farmfest, Rene gets a timing rather quickly where he just wrecks riven and there is not a lot she can do about that.
If you are not focussing on top as one of your main lanes, i'd suggest just learning 1-2 champions that you can play against pretty much anything, and pick them whenever you are forced to go top. Renekton is one of those, Riven probably also. A large championpool in one of your offlanes is not really that effective, since you will not play that lane very often, and if you then also swap champions all the time, you will never really understand what is going on. Pick 1-2 champions which are stable and rarely banned, and play only those whenever you are forced to go top. Don't counterpick outside of those 1-2 champions.
You must realize that playing time is limited, and the game shifts all the time. If you only play each champions once every 2 weeks, you will never get good with them, and each time you pick them you are probably in a situation that you have never seen before and are just winging it. That is not ideal. What you want is to reach the point where you can reliably predict how a lane will play out before it even started, and know how you should play it at each point in time, when you win trades, when you lose trade, and which crucial timings you need to abuse. That is only possible if you played the same matchup before, preferably multiple times. Which is only really possible if you play with a limited champion pool.
For example, my current champion pool is the following:
I pick Thresh when i am the first support to pick
Sona if Thresh is banned
Leona if the enemy picked Blitz
Zyra if the enemy picked Leona(or Taric)
Blitz if the enemy picked Sona or Nami
Sona if the enemy picked anything else
Renekton if i am toplane
J4 if i am jungle.
I actively try to avoid any other situation. I nearly never play mid or ADC, i counterpick in my main lane, though rarely since as a support main i usually pick before the enemy support. And i play exactly one champion in another lane. I should probably learn to play something i pick when the enemy picks renekton, but that happens surprisingly rarely, so much that up until now i didn't really have to worry about it.
|
I've had this problem a non-negligible amount of times - I'm playing a jungler with poor low-level fighting capability like Hecarim, and I'm starting blue -> red on purple side. The top laner doesn't stand to spot a red-side invade, and when I go to red, it's already been taken. At this point I see three options:
1) Head directly to their red and try to contest it. If it works you catch up a bit in terms of experience, but if their bot lane reacts at all you've wasted a lot of time, had to flash, or died.
2) Gank top immediately. Without red or cc at low levels (generally taken at 3+), there's no real kill pressure, but you might get a summoner, and the risks are fairly low.
3) Take golems -> wraiths -> wolves and try to position for a countergank. Conceding double buffs and map presence just seems sad, but it's the safest choice.
Of course, none of these alternatives are very satisfying. Anyone have any experience or advice to share?
|
On October 04 2013 17:09 MidnightGladius wrote:
I've had this problem a non-negligible amount of times - I'm playing a jungler with poor low-level fighting capability like Hecarim, and I'm starting blue -> red on purple side. The top laner doesn't stand to spot a red-side invade, and when I go to red, it's already been taken. At this point I see three options:
1) Head directly to their red and try to contest it. If it works you catch up a bit in terms of experience, but if their bot lane reacts at all you've wasted a lot of time, had to flash, or died.
2) Gank top immediately. Without red or cc at low levels (generally taken at 3+), there's no real kill pressure, but you might get a summoner, and the risks are fairly low.
3) Take golems -> wraiths -> wolves and try to position for a countergank. Conceding double buffs and map presence just seems sad, but it's the safest choice.
Of course, none of these alternatives are very satisfying. Anyone have any experience or advice to share?
Subset: If you play a jungler with poor early fighting, and are against something like udyr, go red-blue-bot through their jungle instead of blue-red-top. Tell your top you will be doing that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
