|
On June 07 2012 01:20 Alaric wrote:
You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3.
If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x)
While his passive does scale, it scales by level, while shen's Q scales by rank and will outscale your passive's dots, giving him the ability to outtrade vs Darius pre-6. Beyond that, his Q outranges anything Darius has other then his E, so it allows shen to poke and zone, and gives him the initiator's advantage.
But the main reason why Shen is a soft counter to Darius is not his kit, it's his item build. Shen's damage and healing all scale off of HP, meaning he builds mostly Tanky HP items(warmogs, sunfire). Tanky HP items are the perfect counter to Darius's true damage and ArP.
|
On June 07 2012 02:09 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 01:20 Alaric wrote:
You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3.
If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x) While his passive does scale, it scales by level, while shen's Q scales by rank and will outscale your passive's dots, giving him the ability to outtrade vs Darius pre-6. Beyond that, his Q outranges anything Darius has other then his E, so it allows shen to poke and zone, and gives him the initiator's advantage. But the main reason why Shen is a soft counter to Darius is not his kit, it's his item build. Shen's damage and healing all scale off of HP, meaning he builds mostly Tanky HP items(warmogs, sunfire). Tanky HP items are the perfect counter to Darius's true damage and ArP.
Shen's Q has 475 range to Darius's Q with 425 and Shen's Q has enough of an animation that darius can close that 50 range with ease for trading unless you're creep blocked.
|
It doesn't feel like they removed the grace period assist refresh on his Ult. I used it 4+ times in a team fight just now, but only got 2 of the kills. (5th got cut off by the Surrender)
Anyone else had any experiences with his ult since the patch?
|
they haven't made the real patch yet I don't think.
|
His passive's ratio did go down though. (+5 on 17 AD, used to be +7)
|
On June 07 2012 02:38 Sven Stryker wrote:
It doesn't feel like they removed the grace period assist refresh on his Ult. I used it 4+ times in a team fight just now, but only got 2 of the kills. (5th got cut off by the Surrender)
Anyone else had any experiences with his ult since the patch?
i just played him, here is how i explain it:
Even if you do not get the kill with the ult, but the enemy dies within your ult animation (before your damage sets in), you still get the refresh
it is like caitlyn getting her ult on 5 sec CD when the enemy dies/moves out of sight range while she starts to channel her ult
but the mana is gone anyway
|
On June 07 2012 02:15 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 02:09 czylu wrote:On June 07 2012 01:20 Alaric wrote:
You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3.
If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x) While his passive does scale, it scales by level, while shen's Q scales by rank and will outscale your passive's dots, giving him the ability to outtrade vs Darius pre-6. Beyond that, his Q outranges anything Darius has other then his E, so it allows shen to poke and zone, and gives him the initiator's advantage. But the main reason why Shen is a soft counter to Darius is not his kit, it's his item build. Shen's damage and healing all scale off of HP, meaning he builds mostly Tanky HP items(warmogs, sunfire). Tanky HP items are the perfect counter to Darius's true damage and ArP. Shen's Q has 475 range to Darius's Q with 425 and Shen's Q has enough of an animation that darius can close that 50 range with ease for trading unless you're creep blocked.
I don't understand why people always use the attack animation as an excuse to discount the range advantage. Every attack has an animation, including darius's. Beyond that, I think most people know that the animation on attacks in internet RTS and MMO games has no bearing on the actual mechanics w/ in the game. That's the reason why Colossus occasionally drags it's laser beyond its 9 range in SC2. You can escape his Q pretty easily even w/ it as long as he does not have an MS advantage.
|
On June 07 2012 01:57 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 01:19 gtrsrs wrote:On June 07 2012 01:06 Mogwai wrote:On June 06 2012 16:53 WaveofShadow wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Darius being countered (or at least not allowed to snowball in lane) by Shen?
Constant shield and heal to counter act bleed harass damage, safe ranged csing ability, hell he even has the ability to prevent a Darius ult refresh on others by ulting.
Thoughts? buwahahahahahahahahahaha oh man, you guys are too funny on these forums. you don't have to be a dick waveofshadow is a nice poster with a genuine question as for my input, i agree with you wave darius should never be able to kill shen because of shen's dash at the very least at the worst i see this as a freefarm lane otherwise shen can build some early armor and still do a ton of damage to darius the only hard part is, with the frequency these guys are banned, seeing either yet alone both in the same game  you're right, that was uncalled for. Darius does dunk Shen though in my experience. Shen can't come even close to keeping up with his damage output. Vorpal is such a short range that Darius can trade his Qs for Shen's Qs which puts darius considerably ahead in the damage trades and Shen can't commit either or he gets completely bodied by Darius W and passive. Which means Shen's only way to have evenish trades is Q + W for Darius Q, at which point Darius can rope Shen in with his E, auto -> W, Shen ki strikes for energy back to dash away and then he's slowed and Darius is hasted, which lets Darius catch up for more follow up damage and wicked dunks. I've played the matchup 3 times on stream and every time the lane has proven to be a fairly straight forward win, even if I make costly mistakes early, once I get wriggle's, Shen's completely incapable of hanging with me in lane. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320408052 1:20:00ish. I botch the lane early and then still dunk him. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320140788 1:30:00ish. Hardly counts because of the level 1 fight, but dunked. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/319341538 first game. Again I start with an early disadvatage (no flash from level 1 invade) and then dunk him.
No worries, but thanks gtr for the kind words.
I definitely understand how Darius out-trades basically everyone he could possibly lane against, but what I was trying to go for with the Shen lane was perhaps avoiding overt trading (meaning obviously falling behind in cs early) and rather healing up and csing with Q when he can. Darius is going to push the lane by using Q and I know dunking under turret is usually pretty easy for him, but even against a Shen who naturally builds HP/Armor + Taunt?
I'm just trying to theorycraft something not because I think this should work, but because I just don't like the idea of someone being basically uncounterable in lane when I come across him. Really just rubs me (and I'm sure a lot of other people) the wrong way.
|
On June 07 2012 08:12 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 02:15 Mogwai wrote:On June 07 2012 02:09 czylu wrote:On June 07 2012 01:20 Alaric wrote:
You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3.
If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x) While his passive does scale, it scales by level, while shen's Q scales by rank and will outscale your passive's dots, giving him the ability to outtrade vs Darius pre-6. Beyond that, his Q outranges anything Darius has other then his E, so it allows shen to poke and zone, and gives him the initiator's advantage. But the main reason why Shen is a soft counter to Darius is not his kit, it's his item build. Shen's damage and healing all scale off of HP, meaning he builds mostly Tanky HP items(warmogs, sunfire). Tanky HP items are the perfect counter to Darius's true damage and ArP. Shen's Q has 475 range to Darius's Q with 425 and Shen's Q has enough of an animation that darius can close that 50 range with ease for trading unless you're creep blocked. I don't understand why people always use the attack animation as an excuse to discount the range advantage. Every attack has an animation, including darius's. Beyond that, I think most people know that the animation on attacks in internet RTS and MMO games has no bearing on the actual mechanics w/ in the game. That's the reason why Colossus occasionally drags it's laser beyond its 9 range in SC2. You can escape his Q pretty easily even w/ it as long as he does not have an MS advantage.
there's really no discussion to be had here because you apparently don't believe in ranges, nor do you understand how animations work since you're arguing that Darius has animations too, which is not the point because Darius's Q has an instant cast time and Shen's Q has an animation that lasts beyond throwing the sword, thus allowing Darius to close the gap on the tail end of Shen's animation.
On June 07 2012 09:13 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 01:57 Mogwai wrote:On June 07 2012 01:19 gtrsrs wrote:On June 07 2012 01:06 Mogwai wrote:On June 06 2012 16:53 WaveofShadow wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Darius being countered (or at least not allowed to snowball in lane) by Shen?
Constant shield and heal to counter act bleed harass damage, safe ranged csing ability, hell he even has the ability to prevent a Darius ult refresh on others by ulting.
Thoughts? buwahahahahahahahahahaha oh man, you guys are too funny on these forums. you don't have to be a dick waveofshadow is a nice poster with a genuine question as for my input, i agree with you wave darius should never be able to kill shen because of shen's dash at the very least at the worst i see this as a freefarm lane otherwise shen can build some early armor and still do a ton of damage to darius the only hard part is, with the frequency these guys are banned, seeing either yet alone both in the same game you're right, that was uncalled for. Darius does dunk Shen though in my experience. Shen can't come even close to keeping up with his damage output. Vorpal is such a short range that Darius can trade his Qs for Shen's Qs which puts darius considerably ahead in the damage trades and Shen can't commit either or he gets completely bodied by Darius W and passive. Which means Shen's only way to have evenish trades is Q + W for Darius Q, at which point Darius can rope Shen in with his E, auto -> W, Shen ki strikes for energy back to dash away and then he's slowed and Darius is hasted, which lets Darius catch up for more follow up damage and wicked dunks. I've played the matchup 3 times on stream and every time the lane has proven to be a fairly straight forward win, even if I make costly mistakes early, once I get wriggle's, Shen's completely incapable of hanging with me in lane. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320408052 1:20:00ish. I botch the lane early and then still dunk him. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320140788 1:30:00ish. Hardly counts because of the level 1 fight, but dunked. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/319341538 first game. Again I start with an early disadvatage (no flash from level 1 invade) and then dunk him. No worries, but thanks gtr for the kind words. I definitely understand how Darius out-trades basically everyone he could possibly lane against, but what I was trying to go for with the Shen lane was perhaps avoiding overt trading (meaning obviously falling behind in cs early) and rather healing up and csing with Q when he can. Darius is going to push the lane by using Q and I know dunking under turret is usually pretty easy for him, but even against a Shen who naturally builds HP/Armor + Taunt? I'm just trying to theorycraft something not because I think this should work, but because I just don't like the idea of someone being basically uncounterable in lane when I come across him. Really just rubs me (and I'm sure a lot of other people) the wrong way.
The problem is that trying to defensively outscale Darius's damage is fighting a losing battle. He just does too much diverse damage (magic damage passive, physical autos + Q + W, true damage R) that all scales off of AD for you to be able to win via defense.
That being said, he's not uncounterable. He's counterable by ranged champs. Teemo is the most obvious and strong counter. Kayle probably does well vs. him though I've never had to play the matchup. I still haven't had to play the Udyr vs. Darius matchup and I can believe that Udyr would be able to trade, but it's too close to call for me without actually playing it a few times. (side note: why the fuck did people stop playing udyr top?)
|
On June 07 2012 11:40 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 08:12 czylu wrote:On June 07 2012 02:15 Mogwai wrote:On June 07 2012 02:09 czylu wrote:On June 07 2012 01:20 Alaric wrote:
You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3.
If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x) While his passive does scale, it scales by level, while shen's Q scales by rank and will outscale your passive's dots, giving him the ability to outtrade vs Darius pre-6. Beyond that, his Q outranges anything Darius has other then his E, so it allows shen to poke and zone, and gives him the initiator's advantage. But the main reason why Shen is a soft counter to Darius is not his kit, it's his item build. Shen's damage and healing all scale off of HP, meaning he builds mostly Tanky HP items(warmogs, sunfire). Tanky HP items are the perfect counter to Darius's true damage and ArP. Shen's Q has 475 range to Darius's Q with 425 and Shen's Q has enough of an animation that darius can close that 50 range with ease for trading unless you're creep blocked. I don't understand why people always use the attack animation as an excuse to discount the range advantage. Every attack has an animation, including darius's. Beyond that, I think most people know that the animation on attacks in internet RTS and MMO games has no bearing on the actual mechanics w/ in the game. That's the reason why Colossus occasionally drags it's laser beyond its 9 range in SC2. You can escape his Q pretty easily even w/ it as long as he does not have an MS advantage. there's really no discussion to be had here because you apparently don't believe in ranges, nor do you understand how animations work since you're arguing that Darius has animations too, which is not the point because Darius's Q has an instant cast time and Shen's Q has an animation that lasts beyond throwing the sword, thus allowing Darius to close the gap on the tail end of Shen's animation. Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 09:13 WaveofShadow wrote:On June 07 2012 01:57 Mogwai wrote:On June 07 2012 01:19 gtrsrs wrote:On June 07 2012 01:06 Mogwai wrote:On June 06 2012 16:53 WaveofShadow wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Darius being countered (or at least not allowed to snowball in lane) by Shen?
Constant shield and heal to counter act bleed harass damage, safe ranged csing ability, hell he even has the ability to prevent a Darius ult refresh on others by ulting.
Thoughts? buwahahahahahahahahahaha oh man, you guys are too funny on these forums. you don't have to be a dick waveofshadow is a nice poster with a genuine question as for my input, i agree with you wave darius should never be able to kill shen because of shen's dash at the very least at the worst i see this as a freefarm lane otherwise shen can build some early armor and still do a ton of damage to darius the only hard part is, with the frequency these guys are banned, seeing either yet alone both in the same game you're right, that was uncalled for. Darius does dunk Shen though in my experience. Shen can't come even close to keeping up with his damage output. Vorpal is such a short range that Darius can trade his Qs for Shen's Qs which puts darius considerably ahead in the damage trades and Shen can't commit either or he gets completely bodied by Darius W and passive. Which means Shen's only way to have evenish trades is Q + W for Darius Q, at which point Darius can rope Shen in with his E, auto -> W, Shen ki strikes for energy back to dash away and then he's slowed and Darius is hasted, which lets Darius catch up for more follow up damage and wicked dunks. I've played the matchup 3 times on stream and every time the lane has proven to be a fairly straight forward win, even if I make costly mistakes early, once I get wriggle's, Shen's completely incapable of hanging with me in lane. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320408052 1:20:00ish. I botch the lane early and then still dunk him. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320140788 1:30:00ish. Hardly counts because of the level 1 fight, but dunked. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/319341538 first game. Again I start with an early disadvatage (no flash from level 1 invade) and then dunk him. No worries, but thanks gtr for the kind words. I definitely understand how Darius out-trades basically everyone he could possibly lane against, but what I was trying to go for with the Shen lane was perhaps avoiding overt trading (meaning obviously falling behind in cs early) and rather healing up and csing with Q when he can. Darius is going to push the lane by using Q and I know dunking under turret is usually pretty easy for him, but even against a Shen who naturally builds HP/Armor + Taunt? I'm just trying to theorycraft something not because I think this should work, but because I just don't like the idea of someone being basically uncounterable in lane when I come across him. Really just rubs me (and I'm sure a lot of other people) the wrong way. The problem is that trying to defensively outscale Darius's damage is fighting a losing battle. He just does too much diverse damage (magic damage passive, physical autos + Q + W, true damage R) that all scales off of AD for you to be able to win via defense. That being said, he's not uncounterable. He's counterable by ranged champs. Teemo is the most obvious and strong counter. Kayle probably does well vs. him though I've never had to play the matchup. I still haven't had to play the Udyr vs. Darius matchup and I can believe that Udyr would be able to trade, but it's too close to call for me without actually playing it a few times. (side note: why the fuck did people stop playing udyr top?)
I played Kayle a bunch of times vs all sorts of tops during my little 1900-2k climb.
I think Kayle would have to play EXTREMELY careful and only end up harassing with her Q since if she gets pulled into darius's range, she's going to lose the trade. She'll definitely win level 1-3, but after those 3 crucial levels, darius starts gaining the edge. The only way I can see Kayle doing well in the lane is to go balls deep and force darius back or kill him before level 5 and gain a small enough advantage there to keep him always behind. If you don't manage to harass him out of lane, his kite and scaling will overpower you and die. Kayle can't kite darius around because her auto range is within his Q and pull if i'm correct?
|
Take note I am a 1300s newb so be nice if this is a silly statement  .
Nasus IMO is a pretty average champ, and whilst this has only been in normals, but I've smashed every Darius I've played with Nasus. Even early game I've traded fine with auto Q auto, then once I have tabi and wriggles he cannot trade with me at all.
Is wriggles silly on Nasus (I wanted retarded sustain and more armor), am I just vs bad players (only tried this in normals so far) or is Nasus actually a viable counter to Darius?
|
On June 07 2012 13:56 schmutttt wrote:Take note I am a 1300s newb so be nice if this is a silly statement . Nasus IMO is a pretty average champ, and whilst this has only been in normals, but I've smashed every Darius I've played with Nasus. Even early game I've traded fine with auto Q auto, then once I have tabi and wriggles he cannot trade with me at all. Is wriggles silly on Nasus (I wanted retarded sustain and more armor), am I just vs bad players (only tried this in normals so far) or is Nasus actually a viable counter to Darius?
Wriggles is not a bad choice on Nasus, but that doesn't mean you shoudl pick it up all the time. It's situational.
And a good Darius butchers Nasus. It's not even close.
|
Really? I must be playing awful players then  . I didn't try and trade 1-3 too much but as the game went on I could do whatever I want.
Thanks for the quick reply .
|
On June 07 2012 12:57 Soloside wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 11:40 Mogwai wrote:On June 07 2012 08:12 czylu wrote:On June 07 2012 02:15 Mogwai wrote:On June 07 2012 02:09 czylu wrote:On June 07 2012 01:20 Alaric wrote:
You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3.
If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x) While his passive does scale, it scales by level, while shen's Q scales by rank and will outscale your passive's dots, giving him the ability to outtrade vs Darius pre-6. Beyond that, his Q outranges anything Darius has other then his E, so it allows shen to poke and zone, and gives him the initiator's advantage. But the main reason why Shen is a soft counter to Darius is not his kit, it's his item build. Shen's damage and healing all scale off of HP, meaning he builds mostly Tanky HP items(warmogs, sunfire). Tanky HP items are the perfect counter to Darius's true damage and ArP. Shen's Q has 475 range to Darius's Q with 425 and Shen's Q has enough of an animation that darius can close that 50 range with ease for trading unless you're creep blocked. I don't understand why people always use the attack animation as an excuse to discount the range advantage. Every attack has an animation, including darius's. Beyond that, I think most people know that the animation on attacks in internet RTS and MMO games has no bearing on the actual mechanics w/ in the game. That's the reason why Colossus occasionally drags it's laser beyond its 9 range in SC2. You can escape his Q pretty easily even w/ it as long as he does not have an MS advantage. there's really no discussion to be had here because you apparently don't believe in ranges, nor do you understand how animations work since you're arguing that Darius has animations too, which is not the point because Darius's Q has an instant cast time and Shen's Q has an animation that lasts beyond throwing the sword, thus allowing Darius to close the gap on the tail end of Shen's animation. On June 07 2012 09:13 WaveofShadow wrote:On June 07 2012 01:57 Mogwai wrote:On June 07 2012 01:19 gtrsrs wrote:On June 07 2012 01:06 Mogwai wrote:On June 06 2012 16:53 WaveofShadow wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Darius being countered (or at least not allowed to snowball in lane) by Shen?
Constant shield and heal to counter act bleed harass damage, safe ranged csing ability, hell he even has the ability to prevent a Darius ult refresh on others by ulting.
Thoughts? buwahahahahahahahahahaha oh man, you guys are too funny on these forums. you don't have to be a dick waveofshadow is a nice poster with a genuine question as for my input, i agree with you wave darius should never be able to kill shen because of shen's dash at the very least at the worst i see this as a freefarm lane otherwise shen can build some early armor and still do a ton of damage to darius the only hard part is, with the frequency these guys are banned, seeing either yet alone both in the same game you're right, that was uncalled for. Darius does dunk Shen though in my experience. Shen can't come even close to keeping up with his damage output. Vorpal is such a short range that Darius can trade his Qs for Shen's Qs which puts darius considerably ahead in the damage trades and Shen can't commit either or he gets completely bodied by Darius W and passive. Which means Shen's only way to have evenish trades is Q + W for Darius Q, at which point Darius can rope Shen in with his E, auto -> W, Shen ki strikes for energy back to dash away and then he's slowed and Darius is hasted, which lets Darius catch up for more follow up damage and wicked dunks. I've played the matchup 3 times on stream and every time the lane has proven to be a fairly straight forward win, even if I make costly mistakes early, once I get wriggle's, Shen's completely incapable of hanging with me in lane. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320408052 1:20:00ish. I botch the lane early and then still dunk him. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320140788 1:30:00ish. Hardly counts because of the level 1 fight, but dunked. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/319341538 first game. Again I start with an early disadvatage (no flash from level 1 invade) and then dunk him. No worries, but thanks gtr for the kind words. I definitely understand how Darius out-trades basically everyone he could possibly lane against, but what I was trying to go for with the Shen lane was perhaps avoiding overt trading (meaning obviously falling behind in cs early) and rather healing up and csing with Q when he can. Darius is going to push the lane by using Q and I know dunking under turret is usually pretty easy for him, but even against a Shen who naturally builds HP/Armor + Taunt? I'm just trying to theorycraft something not because I think this should work, but because I just don't like the idea of someone being basically uncounterable in lane when I come across him. Really just rubs me (and I'm sure a lot of other people) the wrong way. The problem is that trying to defensively outscale Darius's damage is fighting a losing battle. He just does too much diverse damage (magic damage passive, physical autos + Q + W, true damage R) that all scales off of AD for you to be able to win via defense. That being said, he's not uncounterable. He's counterable by ranged champs. Teemo is the most obvious and strong counter. Kayle probably does well vs. him though I've never had to play the matchup. I still haven't had to play the Udyr vs. Darius matchup and I can believe that Udyr would be able to trade, but it's too close to call for me without actually playing it a few times. (side note: why the fuck did people stop playing udyr top?) I played Kayle a bunch of times vs all sorts of tops during my little 1900-2k climb. I think Kayle would have to play EXTREMELY careful and only end up harassing with her Q since if she gets pulled into darius's range, she's going to lose the trade. She'll definitely win level 1-3, but after those 3 crucial levels, darius starts gaining the edge. The only way I can see Kayle doing well in the lane is to go balls deep and force darius back or kill him before level 5 and gain a small enough advantage there to keep him always behind. If you don't manage to harass him out of lane, his kite and scaling will overpower you and die. Kayle can't kite darius around because her auto range is within his Q and pull if i'm correct?
his E range > her auto range > his Q range I think your description of the matchup sounds about right. Kayle should have a tentative hold on the pacing of the matchup, but a single fuckup can be an insta-dunk -> snowball.
On June 07 2012 14:02 schmutttt wrote:Really? I must be playing awful players then . I didn't try and trade 1-3 too much but as the game went on I could do whatever I want. Thanks for the quick reply .
yea, there's really no way nasus should be able to compete with a good darius. he'll just butcher you since you can't just stack armor and win like nasus can in some matchups.
|
irelia v darius, from irelia's perspective? thought it would be real straightforward, just play defensively and farm until 2 gp10 and wriggles, but he was literally towerdiving me npnp at level 3 and then with a jungler at 6.
|
lol I still can't believe there's a champ that has a true damage scaling ult that refreshes upon kills. that is just ridunkulous.
|
On June 07 2012 17:32 broz0rs wrote:
lol I still can't believe there's a champ that has a true damage scaling ult that refreshes upon kills. that is just ridunkulous.
Cho gaths had a scaling true damage ult for a long time, just it doesnt refresh.
sadly
|
On June 07 2012 17:09 gtrsrs wrote:
irelia v darius, from irelia's perspective? thought it would be real straightforward, just play defensively and farm until 2 gp10 and wriggles, but he was literally towerdiving me npnp at level 3 and then with a jungler at 6.
21 def and it's all good. gotta be patient and wait out ganks. your main advantage is him being way more gankable than you especially if he's harassing a lot with q which pushes and also keeps you low for an e stun
as far as items go I've tried philo tabi hog aegis zeke and really appreciated the health buffer. I've seen triple dshield work as well
|
On June 07 2012 17:09 gtrsrs wrote:
irelia v darius, from irelia's perspective? thought it would be real straightforward, just play defensively and farm until 2 gp10 and wriggles, but he was literally towerdiving me npnp at level 3 and then with a jungler at 6.
playing defensively does not beat Darius. I keep trying to tell you guys this. His damage is too high and too diverse for you to pick a sustainer and all-in on defensive stats successfully. You're fighting uphill all game just to not die in lane.
On June 07 2012 18:38 nyxnyxnyx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 17:09 gtrsrs wrote:
irelia v darius, from irelia's perspective? thought it would be real straightforward, just play defensively and farm until 2 gp10 and wriggles, but he was literally towerdiving me npnp at level 3 and then with a jungler at 6. 21 def and it's all good. gotta be patient and wait out ganks. your main advantage is him being way more gankable than you especially if he's harassing a lot with q which pushes and also keeps you low for an e stun as far as items go I've tried philo tabi hog aegis zeke and really appreciated the health buffer. I've seen triple dshield work as well
philohog vs. Darius is asking to get dunked. the regen from philo is essentially meaningless vs. Darius. once he goes all in, he's going to kill you or put you so low that you have to back off. you're also never going to be sustaining casts enough to need the mana regen in lane. Setting yourself back 800 gold vs. someone with an already strong early game is just a bad idea. I think Irelia's going to get dunked either way, but if I had to guess about the best way to play the matchup, I'd say that tabi + hog -> phage and pray to god that you get enough ganks to get at least 2 levels ahead of him.
|
I played Olaf vs him (and asked a bit in the Olaf thread), is there a way for Olaf to win that lane? His burst damage output demolishes Olaf's, which led me to an early couple deaths (one that was my fault, another was a Rammus dive that couldn't be helped), and left me with throwing Q and trying to last hit while not dying and stacking health and armor to no avail.
Is this just a tough matchup for Olaf/easy matchup for Darius?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
