Hemorrhage (Passive) bonus Attack Damage ratio reduced to 0.3 from 0.4 Noxian Guillotine will now only refresh its cooldown when it deals the killing blow Apprehend pre-pull animation modified to be more readable for enemy Champion Fixed a bug with Hemorrhage applying Rylai's Crystal Scepter slow and Spell Vamp effects
Health ............ 426 (+93) Mana ............. 200 (+37.5) Damage ......... 50 (+3.5) Attack Speed . 0.679 (+2.6%) Range ............ 125 Health Regen .. 8.25 (+0.95) Mana Regen ... 6 (+0.35) Armor ............ 20 (+3.5) Magic Res ...... 30 (+1.25) Mov. Speed .... 315
Abilities:
Passive - Hemorrhage: Darius' basic attacks and damaging abilities cause enemies to bleed for 12/15/18/21/24/27/30/33/36 + 0.3 bonus AD magic damage over 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times.
Darius gains 5% movement speed for each bleeding enemy champion.
This passive is the linchpin of your early laning strength. It does deceptively huge damage and maintaining passive stacks on your opponents is a big part of how you keep pressure up in lane.
Q - Decimate: Deals 70/105/140/175/210 + 0.7 bonus AD physical damage to all nearby enemies in a circle. Champions in the outer half of the ability are struck by the blade, taking 50% additional damage.
CD: 9/8/7/6/5 Mana: 40 Range: 425 (last 155 is the blade that deals bonus damage to champions)
Short range PBAoE nuke with strong scaling. This ability is straightforward and very strong and the only thing that's at all tricky about it's use is getting comfortable with the range. It's sorter than you'd think at first, but eventually you'll get a feel for it and start butchering champions with the blade section of the nuke.
W - Crippling Strike: Darius's next basic attack deals 120/140/160/180/200% damage and slows the target's movement and attack speed by 20/25/30/35/40% for 2 seconds. Crippling strike's base cooldown is reduced by 1 second for each stack of Hemorrhage on the target.
CD: 8 Mana: 30/35/40/45/50 Range: 145
Riot decided that it was too easy to trade with Darius's passive alone in prolonged exchanges, so they said, "you know what he needs? A MS/AS debuff on-hit modifier that has a downward scaling CD based off passive stacks. That's bound to be fair!" This ability is pretty good in a void. 40% AS/MS debuff is plenty strong on it's own, but then you tack on the fact that this is effectively @ 1-3 second CD based on your CDR vs. a target with 5 passive stacks and your opponent is up shit's creek due to the insane 100% uptime on the debuff. I have tested the abuse case of 40% CDR vs. a 5 stack target, and their is a floor on how low the CD can be lowered, so the minimum CD on this ability is 1 second. At least they managed to knock out that abuse case, *whew*!
E - Apprehend: Passive: Darius gains 5/10/15/20/25% armor penetration.
Active: Darius pulls in all enemies in front of him.
CD: 24/21/18/15/12 Mana: 45 Range: 550
For such a brutal madman, Darius is extremely delicate when pulling his prey to himself. This ability deals no damage, just like Talon's cutthroat and as such is an easy 1-point wonder in most games. Free % armor pen ends up being pretty beast and for that reason I usually don't build any flat penetration on Darius. Between just this passive and the Weapon Expertise mastery, you hit 32.5% armor penetration.
The active pull takes some getting used to, but it's very powerful as it's just an AoE instead of a skill shot. Anyone who puts themselves in 550 range of Darius should be easy to pull and start wailing on.
R - Noxian Guillotine: Darius leaps to target enemy champion and DUNKS THE EVER-LOVING SHIT OUT OF THEM, dealing 160/250/340 + 0.75 bonus AD true damage. For each stack of Hemorrhage on the target, Noxian Guillotine deals an additional 20% damage, 320/500/680 + 1.5 bonus AD Maximum Damage . The cooldown is refreshed if Noxian Guillotine kills the target.
CD: 100/90/80 (I dunno why these are listed, it's really 0) Mana: 100 Range: 475
Nothing makes me feel more skilled than doing 600 true damage out of nowhere to kill some unsuspecting idiot who just wanted to play LoL and not use a ban on Darius. This ability is simply unfair and allows Darius to murder pretty much whoever he pleases 1v1. Make sure that you use this ability as people are about to die or after you hit 5 passive stacks for maximum efficiency.
GUIDES
Top Lane Darius
Summoner Skills: Flash/Ghost + Ignite I like Flash, but Ghost is better for multikilling, since you can ghost -> ult -> continue chasing with ult CD refresh, whereas Flash is down once you use it. Ignite + your passive will randomly kill people who have disengaged 2000 range away with like 500 HP left.
Masteries: 9/21/0 Executioner doesn't affect true damage and flat pen is devalued from his E, so the higher tiered offensive masteries are less attractive than you'd think on Darius. For that reason, I like investing heavily in the defensive tree for the Creep Damage reductions so that you can pick fights even against massive creep waves. The few times I haven't specced defensively, I've gotten really sad when I've vs. 20 creeps + my lane opponent and I can't just pick a fight, so I like defensive. You could probably mess with the balance and do a 13/16/1 setup or something to get the AD/level mastery and the Flash mastery, but it's all kinda a matter of preference.
You could spec more offensively, but there's really no need to. Just AD marks butchers people, so I just spec really safe since I know I don't need a let up on offense.
Skill Order: WQQE -> R > Q > W > E (vs. Melee) or EWQQ -> R > Q > W = E (vs. Ranged) R and Q are your primary nukes and as such always get the focus in leveling. As for W and E, I'll explain further in playstyle, but essentially you need E to be threatening to ranged characters and as such sometimes need to prioritize it over W in lane to get the CD down to more reasonable levels rather than upping your W damage.
Item Build:
Starting Items + x3 or + x5 Boots vs. easy lanes or ranged champs, cloth vs. harder melee lanes.
Situational Early Items
Dblades are good items. I get them if I don't think I want or need wriggle's.
If I opened cloth I get a wriggle's. Item's pretty beast, it solves a lot of your sustain issues and keeps the wards up without having to back and let your opponent feel comfy enough to kill creeps.
Good vs. double AP setups or just generally when you want AD and MRes.
Core + + I don't rush this core before getting dblades or wriggle's, but one way or another, I always get Phage + HoG on top of my boots.
Boots Options
or
Can't see a reason to get any other boots. Just get the defensive ones that feel most appropriate.
Staple Later Items
Your AD scaling is nuts and you have sustain issues. If you can afford to spend 3K gold on an offensive item, this is the best one to go for and it's frequently a good idea to rush your BT after HoG + Phage in easier lanes. Conversely, if you got camped in lane and are a fairly low priority to the opposing team when the game shifts towards teamfighting, getting a BT before truly getting tanky can force the opposing team to go after you or suffer the consequences of you cleaning up teamfights. It's the evenish games where I typically don't force an early BT, as you're already fairly high priority in these games without an excess of gold to spend on non-defensive items.
+ + + + + These are your defensive items. Choose wisely. You have no innate defense, so you typically need some HP, making Omen, Bashee's and Aegis the most logical choices IMO, but GA and QSS can be situationally game-breaking and FoN makes a lot of sense after Mallet rush vs. AP heavy teams. All that being said, I have mostly been finding myself settling into Omen + GA as my defensive core.
or What to do with your phage later depends highly on the game. If you're laning vs. a slippery champ like Teemo/Kennen/Singed/Nidalee/etc, I would recommend rushing a fairly quick Mallet, but otherwise, I lay off on upgrading my phage for a long time and then I just make the decision between damage and tankiness.
If you bought a Hexdrinker, do it. Item gives great AD and a lot of effective defense vs. Magic Damage.
For those situations where 32.5% ArPen isn't enough, why not boost that up to 59.5% ArPen? I've never bought this but if you're vs a bunch of dicks with like 300 Armor (Malphite + Ryze + WW + Urgot + Taric or something), it would make sense.
My Standard Final Item Build + + + + +
Playstyle Darius is an enormous bully in lane. His low level damage output is obscene, mostly due to his passive and as such, you should be looking to trade autos with anyone who's willing to do so with you. Try to prolong these low level engagements to keep your passive at max stacks on them, and then start unloading 3 second CD Ws on them, with an addition Q once they try to disengage. This is hard to pull off vs. ranged champs and as such, Darius's toughest matchups come in the form of good ranged solos like Teemo, Kennen and Kayle. In these lanes, you need to take your E first and bait them into 550 range, E them and then let your passive do the heavy lifting to out trade at levels 1-3. Levels 4-7 are probably Darius's strongest, as these levels are when you have an enormous Q nuke + both your utility abilities to stick to opponents and draw out these low level fights. Once you hit 6, take any opportunity to ult your lane opponent when they have 5 stacks on them unless you're getting ganked and will need to multi-dunk or if a full stack dunk won't be enough to even force them off the lane (if so, you're already in trouble). People like to pigeonhole Darius ult into an execute, but the fact of the matter is that prior to teamfights, it's OK if the ability goes on CD, so long as you're getting the max damage out of it. Once you get your phage, you're typically able to insta-kill anyone 1v1 once you get a proc, as 1 phage proc, typically gives you enough time to get 5 passive stacks on the opponent, which leads to minimumu CD Ws, which leads to more phage procs, which leads to dunks.
Once teamfights start breaking out, start making sure that you use your ult to get a kill on the first use or two. Not getting an ult refresh in teamfights is a big damage loss, and while it's greedy to try to ult their whole team, it's foolish to not at least try to get 1 refresh/fight. Even if you're just dunking their support, an ult that refreshes it's CD is essentially free damage. Whether or not you can afford to dive their team or should be babysitting your carry or waiting out the initial engage before playing cleanup is largely a matter of team compositions and the level to which you are fed. Don't underestimate Darius's usefulness as a babysitter though. Getting free hits on bruisers who try to dive your carry can lead to ezpz max stack dunks, which can be particularly useful vs. bruisers with massive resists, not to mention that Darius has a free mini-last whisper from his E's passive.
As the game goes on, your low range will become a bigger and bigger problem in fights and you'll eventually have a hard time finding the openings you need to dunk people. Don't let this discourage you though. Get a GA, stay off to the side and enter fights at odd angles to isolate high priority targets or play babysit the carry as outlined above. His late game is his biggest flaw, but Darius is still quite capable of getting some 4th quarter dunks.
in a committed fight, you get a 0.4 AD scaling instant magic damage proc on all your auto attacks and abilities, with a 2.0 AD scaling on a DoT if they try to disengage.
From what Seuss said, it is not instant, tho with less than 1 AS it is effectively a proc per aa.
in a committed fight, you get a 0.4 AD scaling instant magic damage proc on all your auto attacks and abilities, with a 2.0 AD scaling on a DoT if they try to disengage.
From what Seuss said, it is not instant, tho with less than 1 AS it is effectively a proc per aa.
Pfft, you can just focus/cc him in a teamfight, then he can't do much. And if you camp him in lane, he's not as strong later on. Hence, he's balanced. GG, Get Good noobs.
On May 26 2012 05:01 ManyCookies wrote: Pfft, you can just focus/cc him in a teamfight, then he can't do much. And if you camp him in lane, he's not as strong later on. Hence, he's balanced. GG, Get Good noobs.
lol, I think all champions should be balanced around them getting camped in lane.
Well yeah, what do you think the jungler is for? Saintvicious can camp three lanes, farm his jungle and secure buffs. If only your junglers were half as good as him, you'd see Darius is easy to deal with.
He's an AD caster version of Trynd. Once he gets out of control, he gets out of control hard. If you lane safe against him, don't commit to many fights, and just pressure him with range and CC, he's workable. Still very strong, but not unbeatable.
On May 26 2012 05:19 Requizen wrote: He's an AD caster version of Trynd. Once he gets out of control, he gets out of control hard. If you lane safe against him, don't commit to many fights, and just pressure him with range and CC, he's workable. Still very strong, but not unbeatable.
I think Kennen's the only character I can think of that has a chance vs. him in lane. His damage is just so very nutty.
Also, I think he's more like the lovechild between Kat and Garen. You can say that doesn't make sense because he has mana, but I only ever realize that when I'm going for like, my 3rd ult after spamming Q and W.
On May 26 2012 05:19 Requizen wrote: He's an AD caster version of Trynd. Once he gets out of control, he gets out of control hard. If you lane safe against him, don't commit to many fights, and just pressure him with range and CC, he's workable. Still very strong, but not unbeatable.
I think Kennen's the only character I can think of that has a chance vs. him in lane. His damage is just so very nutty.
Also, I think he's more like the lovechild between Kat and Garen. You can say that doesn't make sense because he has mana, but I only ever realize that when I'm going for like, my 3rd ult after spamming Q and W.
I did quite well against him as Swain. Your E+Q outranges his grab (Q is equal range, but he has to anticipate the instant cast) and you have leeway to kite with your Q slow + W. There's not really much he can do in lane without jungler support. Unfortunately, he's also a good roamer. And I might have faced bad Darius with poor reflexes; the grab might be easier than I think it is.
Have you ever considered leveling W first in lane? I think it might be significantly stronger against Autoattack champs (Kayle, tryn, Fiora, Irelia, etc) because dont push lane as much and levels of W means like literally no one can even damage you back because that debuff is obnoxious.
Q does slightly more damage assuming you hit them on outer ring, but W's CD also much shorter and allows you to stack passive more in any trade... only real thing is it more mana heavy. With E it not like you really have trouble starting fights or doing damage.
On May 26 2012 05:50 Goozen wrote: Panthion sould beat him easy in the lane due to Q and panths passive.
I got TRASHED as Panth vs. Darius. You throw a spear and then have to GTFO or get killed and spears don't chip him down fast enough.
Strange, i would have thought tht if he pulls you in after spear your passive will block his first hit (dont know if it blocks Q though (ment Q and it seems it dosnt although logically it should) and you can respond with HSS dealing a nice chunk of damage. I can see why post 6 its hard but it seems that pre ulti you have a big advantage.
On May 26 2012 06:45 zergnewb wrote: I trashed a darius as tryn, but he had flash while I had exhaust. Would tryn top be a good matchup or was the guy I was fighting bad?
I'm guessing Darius bad. I dont see how Tryn could trade with Darius... Press the W key and Tryn flat out does 20% less damage at level 2. Press E key he cant even run after trade. Darius wins click and pray trade with just with his passive, and he also has a AA reset nuke that debuffs attack speed.
On May 26 2012 06:45 zergnewb wrote: I trashed a darius as tryn, but he had flash while I had exhaust. Would tryn top be a good matchup or was the guy I was fighting bad?
I'm guessing Darius bad. I dont see how Tryn could trade with Darius... Press the W key and Tryn flat out does 20% less damage at level 2. Press E key he cant even run after trade. Darius wins click and pray trade with just with his passive, and he also has a AA reset nuke that debuffs attack speed.
Also... Is Darius ult mitigated by Poppy passive?
o.o
it shouldnt be. true damage is mitigated by nothing except poppy ult or kayle ult.
On May 26 2012 05:19 Requizen wrote: He's an AD caster version of Trynd. Once he gets out of control, he gets out of control hard. If you lane safe against him, don't commit to many fights, and just pressure him with range and CC, he's workable. Still very strong, but not unbeatable.
I think Kennen's the only character I can think of that has a chance vs. him in lane. His damage is just so very nutty.
Also, I think he's more like the lovechild between Kat and Garen. You can say that doesn't make sense because he has mana, but I only ever realize that when I'm going for like, my 3rd ult after spamming Q and W.
What about Teemo? You're always talking about how Teemo is the answer to everything and on the PBE (super high elo games I know) Teemo seemed to be winning vs Darius pretty regularly.
On May 26 2012 05:19 Requizen wrote: He's an AD caster version of Trynd. Once he gets out of control, he gets out of control hard. If you lane safe against him, don't commit to many fights, and just pressure him with range and CC, he's workable. Still very strong, but not unbeatable.
I think Kennen's the only character I can think of that has a chance vs. him in lane. His damage is just so very nutty.
Also, I think he's more like the lovechild between Kat and Garen. You can say that doesn't make sense because he has mana, but I only ever realize that when I'm going for like, my 3rd ult after spamming Q and W.
What about Teemo? You're always talking about how Teemo is the answer to everything and on the PBE (super high elo games I know) Teemo seemed to be winning vs Darius pretty regularly.
Teemo has an easy time with anyone that relies a lot on autoattacks and don't have sticking power. Even with blind up, Darius can stick to Teemo with his speed boost/slow/pull, do damage with Q (and I don't think W is mitigated), and his passive DoT can do plenty, and he can stack it easily. Just running an MR page and getting sustain quick should do the trick.
Teemo's 500 attack range seems like it would be a problem. He can probably bully Darius between Darius's E CDs, but if Darius is careful with using E, I think Teemo would be in a world of hurt as I think Darius should be able to pretty easily 1 combo Teemo.
Renekton was a tough lane for me, but that might have been because Lee Sin was camping as well. Still, his stun and ult are brutal dps if he builds a lot of health to survive your burst.
I had problems with Kayle the most out of any champ I faced. If my E was up, I could threaten trades, but after a while she was just able to harass me out of lane between E cooldowns. Another champ that was annoying was Vlad. I killed him at lvl 4 and got far ahead, but between the enemy jungler camping and Vlad being Vlad, he was able to turn things around by lvl 9.
he isnt that op honestly. His playstyle is like that of an all-in. IMO riven, yi, jarvan are better picks to any team comp almost considering they can engage and disengage very effectively in comparison to Darius.
Darius is built so that he is someone who once commits to a fight will win it IF he wisely chooses his timing. His playstyle is unforgiving extremely for both teams.
as for build: I have to tried to build him like a ad bruiser but he isn't is quite effective as a AD caster much like Renekton. His W helps make him a little more dpsy without the help of AD items. With max cdr his q and w comes up like crazy improving his dps much more than autoattacking
renekton and lee sin dominate darius. anyone that has a combination of mobility and sustain is just too much for him. i duo'd with sg's top player on a smurf last night, he is 2k, he played darius and got shit on like no one's business by a 1400 renekton lol. anyone that can disengage after a small trade and avoid prolonged trades is going to wreck him
i could see shyvana causing problems for him until 6 but i don't see her winning after that. they both do a ton of magic and physical damage early, it's probably just about who engages/chickens out first. whoever gets the first hit off is gonna have an advantage in the trade, and whoever runs first is gonna get fucked i bet. also i feel like it'd be reliant on shyv's E, as most of her matchups that aren't push-fests usually are
Honestly, he stopped feeling scary strong to me after a while. He's really good, to be fair, but he has his drawbacks and can be shut down in a couple different ways. He feels like a good choice for top laners and perhaps jungling, but he's no longer fills that "scary OP bullshit champ" space in my mind.
On May 26 2012 14:12 Requizen wrote: Honestly, he stopped feeling scary strong to me after a while. He's really good, to be fair, but he has his drawbacks and can be shut down in a couple different ways. He feels like a good choice for top laners and perhaps jungling, but he's no longer fills that "scary OP bullshit champ" space in my mind.
This is exactly how I feel.
At first I was excited because I thought there might be an alternative I can find other than Renekton). He is like Gragas where the champion is good but you can "feel" his weaknesses that hindur him alot.
When the texts and spotlight on him (Darius) showed I was thinking OP about him. But after playing him I can tell he isn't that strong and was a waste of a buy (Someone I probably won't play again for a long time).
Just played a game as twitch where I went 5-3 or something? I helped Darius firstblood an exhaust ignite renekton (no flash means he'll win the first fight unless the jungler is there at the start of the fight stealthed) at level 2 and he just never needed help again from there. Mid got a kill with my help right after that so I spent my time at bot.
Darius ended up 16-5 getting twice as many kills as our next highest (blitz? and mf both had 8 or so) even though he didn't do all the damage. His ult is scary. It does more damage than cho's ult at it's maximum. Anyways my point is that Darius is one of the reasons why KDR isn't always an accurate indicator of one's impact on the game.
I'm just waiting till he gets nerfed at this point. When I play a game and the other team has Darius, I lose. If they don't have one, I win. It's kind of hilarious, but also a tad frustrating. Course, that could be correlation and maybe the psychological effect is also shitting on my play.
I feel like his ulti is a little too strong. It has *basically* no cooldown like Yi's Highlander, does more (true) damage (and scales) better than Cho's feast. AND it has good synergy with his passive (which is also a little ridiculous).
Swain absolutely dumps on him. Haven't lost a single match against him and I doubt I ever will. You can harass him while dodging his q and as long as you heal up any harass he does happen to hit you with he can't kill you. I HIGHLY doubt he will get nerfed. He isn't really OP, just his counters aren't really played very much. He is the new king of noobstompers though. Anyone with sustained/kiting damage or really high one-sided burst (due to cc) absolutely dumps on him.
the problem with darius is he snowballs so easily -_- big damage and big ability to take kills and a lot of the "x can beat darius" seems to be anecdotal... not sure anyone absolutely destorys him because he does trade really really well
On May 27 2012 11:56 CeriseCherries wrote: the problem with darius is he snowballs so easily -_- big damage and big ability to take kills and a lot of the "x can beat darius" seems to be anecdotal... not sure anyone absolutely destorys him because he does trade really really well
Well of course cait does. Put a ward down and start zoning from level 1 :/ But yeah I know what you mean.
I don't know if I am having bad luck but I am 2/7 with Darius while destroying my lane horribly. I am unsure if I am just getting shitty teams at random when I play him or if it's a Darius thing. I feel like in team fights he is really good at peeling with EW while doing crazy damage as opposed to a diver like Olaf or Noc but I just keep losing when I play him.
On May 26 2012 06:45 zergnewb wrote: I trashed a darius as tryn, but he had flash while I had exhaust. Would tryn top be a good matchup or was the guy I was fighting bad?
I'm guessing Darius bad. I dont see how Tryn could trade with Darius... Press the W key and Tryn flat out does 20% less damage at level 2. Press E key he cant even run after trade. Darius wins click and pray trade with just with his passive, and he also has a AA reset nuke that debuffs attack speed.
Also... Is Darius ult mitigated by Poppy passive?
o.o
Yeah.. Darius did 300 damage with his combo to me as trynd, at level 2. Its just ridiculous, he manhandles every melee champ.v Even olaf's E is a sad joke compared to darius' damage
On May 26 2012 06:45 zergnewb wrote: I trashed a darius as tryn, but he had flash while I had exhaust. Would tryn top be a good matchup or was the guy I was fighting bad?
I'm guessing Darius bad. I dont see how Tryn could trade with Darius... Press the W key and Tryn flat out does 20% less damage at level 2. Press E key he cant even run after trade. Darius wins click and pray trade with just with his passive, and he also has a AA reset nuke that debuffs attack speed.
Also... Is Darius ult mitigated by Poppy passive?
o.o
Yeah.. Darius did 300 damage with his combo to me as trynd, at level 2. Its just ridiculous, he manhandles every melee champ.v Even olaf's E is a sad joke compared to darius' damage
think only renekton is manly enough to take that trade and come out ahead
Just got shit on in lane as Darius by a Yorick, question is though who Yorick does not shit on, still managed to keep "only" a 15cs difference while our other lanes failed, but I tried the "kep up the teamspirit" and don''t surrender attitue and we managed to win after I called an engagement and managed to quadra muhamuha
On May 27 2012 16:40 Bladeorade wrote: I don't know if I am having bad luck but I am 2/7 with Darius while destroying my lane horribly. I am unsure if I am just getting shitty teams at random when I play him or if it's a Darius thing. I feel like in team fights he is really good at peeling with EW while doing crazy damage as opposed to a diver like Olaf or Noc but I just keep losing when I play him.
I dunno.
I have this strange thing with garen where I have a monstrous kdr but low w/l
I think it has to do with scaling and how much overall damage a champ does. If a poorly scaling champion gets a lot of kills that could have otherwise gone to better scalers, then the team overall gets hurt.
On May 28 2012 14:47 Requizen wrote: Fiora has murdered the hell out of every Darius I've seen. Neat.
I could see this happening. you're both duking it out 1v1 And as soon as the ult indicator appears over fiora (whenever an opponent darius is fighting gets low enough that his ult would kill them an indicator appears over their champion) she just ults and becomes untargetable and kills darius.
On May 28 2012 14:47 Requizen wrote: Fiora has murdered the hell out of every Darius I've seen. Neat.
I could see this happening. you're both duking it out 1v1 And as soon as the ult indicator appears over fiora (whenever an opponent darius is fighting gets low enough that his ult would kill them an indicator appears over their champion) she just ults and becomes untargetable and kills darius.
She also has her mini heal and speed boost, both of which make her really slippery and able to stay in longer than him. She really gets to decide when to engage, which is a huge boost over an all-in champ like Darius.
I've been playing Darius a lot this week. Either going frozen mallet > atmas or bloodthirst > Randuins/GA mainly. I tend to grab a zeal/pd on him because he's slow as shit.
I feel really bad for my teammates though because of his ult. It's the perfect kill steal. The last game I played I went like 22/2/6 or something dumb like that. Next closest person on our team was our AD graves with like 6 kills. Do I want to kill steal all day? No, but when it's a quick 700 damage execute that refreshes the cooldown you might as well always use it to finish players off quicker.
Having an Ashe on the other team makes me want to /rage. Constant slows is extremely bad for Darius. >.<
On May 28 2012 16:20 SidianTheBard wrote: I've been playing Darius a lot this week. Either going frozen mallet > atmas or bloodthirst > Randuins/GA mainly. I tend to grab a zeal/pd on him because he's slow as shit.
I feel really bad for my teammates though because of his ult. It's the perfect kill steal. The last game I played I went like 22/2/6 or something dumb like that. Next closest person on our team was our AD graves with like 6 kills. Do I want to kill steal all day? No, but when it's a quick 700 damage execute that refreshes the cooldown you might as well always use it to finish players off quicker.
Having an Ashe on the other team makes me want to /rage. Constant slows is extremely bad for Darius. >.<
philo>trinity>shurelias>randuin seems is what pros preffer and i like that build with mini ghost,cdr ,ms seems like everything darius needs
On May 28 2012 14:47 Requizen wrote: Fiora has murdered the hell out of every Darius I've seen. Neat.
I could see this happening. you're both duking it out 1v1 And as soon as the ult indicator appears over fiora (whenever an opponent darius is fighting gets low enough that his ult would kill them an indicator appears over their champion) she just ults and becomes untargetable and kills darius.
Eh, having played darius I haven't seen this indicator. All I've seen is the indicator for the passive dot.
Kayle ult is pretty good vs this asshole. He jumps up and Kayle says no quadra kill for you. What about Zhonya's, can you Zhonya's while he's in mid air to shut his ult down as well?
You should be able to use Zhonya, but if it works like Vlad's pool or Akali's shroud work on Nautilus' ult, he'll just get the cd back (not sure about the mana, I didn't check).
garen vs Darius (take my experience with a grain of salt) is Garen's win unless you take more than Darius' q+w until mod gameish. any later than that and Darius destroys garen
I'm not sure if I just got rolled or what, but 2 games in a row I got completely decimated as Darius playing top against Singed. He'd just run circles around me all day while tossing me about.
Fiora should also be able to lane against him early. At level 3 you have to wait for him to pull you in, then pop your W+E combo, wail on him 4x to fully stack your passive, then Q him in the face and Q again to escape. Darius' passive will out damage the heal from Fiora's passive but you should be able to stack yours faster than he can using E in addition to the 15AD you get from W passive; as long as you can disengage after the first 4 hits. Any more than 4 hits and darius' passive will wreak your heal. In between trades you can recover by last hitting minions for HP, he can't. Plus his Q pushes the lane hard so you will have to AA creeps to keep the wave just out of your tower range. Do not disengage with Q before he pulls you with his E or he will just bring you back into the fight and continue stacking his passive. Darius will win a prolonged engagment. Fiora has the ball in her court, can micro to win, but 1 mistake and darius can take the lane advantage.
Use smart casting to counter his Ult with your own Ult after level 6. You have to be quick while he's in the air for a split second.
On May 31 2012 18:05 Alaric wrote: Renekton and Fiora have been mentioned here, I guess you could add Lee Sin as he has the tools to dictates how and when to engage/disengage, amongst others.
Renekton I can see, Fiora I haven't tried yet, even though I guess if she manages to parry his W that would work out well. I still don't see her outdamaging him, but I wouldn't know for sure. I've played against Lee twice and managed to tear him apart, just because it didn't seem to matter he can pick his engagements well because there simply was no good time for him to engage at all. That doesn't neccessarily say much about the MU per say, but that's how it went for me.
I have no idea how Wukong, GP and Jax wouldn't get trashed, though, especially GP.
Wu and jax can disengage at will, and avoid attacks altogether
wu and GP do extremely well building tanky, which gives them advantages over darius. winning you lane and having positive matchups aren't always about kills you know. GP has an added advantage of being able to kite darius.
I am fully aware how lanes are won, thank you very much. Wukong can disengage, but assuming you're not pushed up to Wukong's turret - what hinders Darius from just following you? I'm genuinely asking, I love Wukong myself but I only played that MU from the Darius side and won ezpz.
Jax I can see if he forfeits early CS, but he will never be able to engage on Darius and I see him having a hard time farming at all up untill 7-8, especially if Darius is able to control the wave. I might be very wrong about the Jax matchup and I guess I can see Jax pulling ahead with the help of his jungler.
I still don't see GP standing a chance though. Once Darius lands his E, GP can't really do all that much, can he? If GP was a manaless champion, I could see him going even, but with resource restrictions, there's only so many oranges he can eat.
lets be honest here, darius is not "OH MY GOD OP'IEST SHIT EVER". But there are phases in the game when he is too strong. 1v2 is like peace of cake for him after he wins his lane, sometimes he even can 1v3. He definitely needs some hotfix. Eventhough I am not high elo player, still darius wrecks shit on our level and games become joyless.
The consensus of the latest SotL episode is that Darius is NOT op. They argue he can be countered in lane (but couldn't name 3 champs that do well against him from the top off their heads), is weak vs. kiting teams and becomes useless lategame except for his ult (which they admit is a little bit too strong in certain situations).
I still ban him. I lost almost every single game playing against him and never reached lategame where he is reputed to be weak...
€dit: nvm just realized Froggen plays normal where his enemies might not be that good compared to when he's playing ranked at 2.2k+ ELO.
The reason Darius feels so OP is because he is a E>W>Q>right click to win champion and because of his passive nobody can 1v1 him without loosing every single trade! He can be beaten but it requires twice as much micro from the other player and is very unforgiving because if you mess up once you're dead or forced to base. The AD scaling on his passive needs removed IMO and have his ult: only refresh half its CD on kill; reset it to like 10 seconds instead of instant CD; or increase the mana cost everytime he uses it like kogma's ult.
On May 31 2012 23:15 Ghost-z wrote: The reason Darius feels so OP is because he is a E>W>Q>right click to win champion and because of his passive nobody can 1v1 him without loosing every single trade! He can be beaten but it requires twice as much micro from the other player and is very unforgiving because if you mess up once you're dead or forced to base. The AD scaling on his passive needs removed IMO and have his ult: only refresh half its CD on kill; reset it to like 10 seconds instead of instant CD; or increase the mana cost everytime he uses it like kogma's ult.
those are both nerfs targetted at late game, where he's already kinda lackluster. mostly he needs base damage nerfs and range increases in order to even out his power curve IMO.
One change I think he needs based on how many people use the ult to chunk people down to 10% before killing them (rather than using it as a killing blow, especially early game) is that the ult should clear all stacks of Hemorrhage, allowing a non-killing blow ult not to mean instant death anyway because of bleed damage.
On June 01 2012 15:26 WaveofShadow wrote: One change I think he needs based on how many people use the ult to chunk people down to 10% before killing them (rather than using it as a killing blow, especially early game) is that the ult should clear all stacks of Hemorrhage, allowing a non-killing blow ult not to mean instant death anyway because of bleed damage.
that's a pretty huge damage nerf on it. you effectively take away 2.0 AD magic damage from most use cases. would need some sort of compensation, which would make it nuttier in the KS scenario, which I think doesn't need help. I don't think this change is needed.
next patch probably kills him depending on the numbers decrease on his passive. Darius is too binary with his current ranged and CDs for them to just be hitting damage numbers IMO.
On June 02 2012 15:32 Mogwai wrote: next patch probably kills him depending on the numbers decrease on his passive. Darius is too binary with his current ranged and CDs for them to just be hitting damage numbers IMO.
what about the damage on his ulti? it seems a little too high imo.
I just wish it wasn't true damage. True damage nuke on a CD that refreshes on kill, I hate how Riot intentionally make OP champs because they are so fucking greedy.
On June 02 2012 16:16 schmutttt wrote: I just wish it wasn't true damage. True damage nuke on a CD that refreshes on kill, I hate how Riot intentionally make OP champs because they are so fucking greedy.
zzzz i hate how people say that 'cause it's completely untrue. we get stuff like varus, sejuani, ziggs which definitely aren't OP and maybe even UP.
honestly, I don't think Darius's ult being true damage refreshing is the problem. It's just the crazy scaling on it imo.
On June 02 2012 15:32 Mogwai wrote: next patch probably kills him depending on the numbers decrease on his passive. Darius is too binary with his current ranged and CDs for them to just be hitting damage numbers IMO.
what about the damage on his ulti? it seems a little too high imo.
It got nerfed a ton with the .5s refresh taken away. It used to be you could ult+bleed tick+q or something to refresh. Now the last two are taken away and you have to last hit champs with just ult (which means you're also wasting some damage to overkill). That could be as much as a couple hundred health lower they have to be if you want to refresh ult CD.
it seems pretty fair imo. the way I see it is like Garen's ult, but it's true damage and refreshed if it lands a killing blow. as it stands it's just a busted ult right now.
On June 03 2012 01:31 Sakray wrote: You skill order is really strange, why using ulti first, since his couldown is reseted if you kill someone with it ?
Skill order usually means the order in which you level up your skills, not the order in which you use 'em.
The nerf to the passive is the one I'm interested in. Multidunks aren't as central to his gameplay as bullying with his passive in lane.
On June 03 2012 01:31 Sakray wrote: You skill order is really strange, why using ulti first, since his couldown is reseted if you kill someone with it ?
skill order = order you level your skills, not the order you use your skills.
I've found that riven counters him strongly in lane, you can dash away after last hitting and use your shield to tank the DoT. You can also trade effectively with him if you dash away because he can't grab back (the dash distance is a /little/ shorter than his grab range, but dash distance+AA distance is longer). Once you hit 6 as riven it's 100% a kill lane as darius cannot win trades when you're using your ulti.
On June 04 2012 14:48 drazak wrote: I've found that riven counters him strongly in lane, you can dash away after last hitting and use your shield to tank the DoT. You can also trade effectively with him if you dash away because he can't grab back (the dash distance is a /little/ shorter than his grab range, but dash distance+AA distance is longer). Once you hit 6 as riven it's 100% a kill lane as darius cannot win trades when you're using your ulti.
yea man, people keep telling me shit like riven and jax beat darius, and I keep dunking on them. there's a reason my elo shot up 150 points since this character's been out and it's because I've stomped pretty much every lane in the nuts. riven and jax are popular picks right now and I'm trashing them, I just don't buy it unless rivens and jaxes at 2-2.1K are trash.
Don't know if this has been stated but those saying to bait his ulti with Zhonyas, Kayle ulti etc. If he uses his ulti on a target that goes immune the cooldown does refresh, the only item that prevents refresh is if they die with a GA active. Other than that his ulti is a big F U when you think you juked it with zhonyas and come out to find it go off again ._.
On June 04 2012 14:48 drazak wrote: I've found that riven counters him strongly in lane, you can dash away after last hitting and use your shield to tank the DoT. You can also trade effectively with him if you dash away because he can't grab back (the dash distance is a /little/ shorter than his grab range, but dash distance+AA distance is longer). Once you hit 6 as riven it's 100% a kill lane as darius cannot win trades when you're using your ulti.
yea man, people keep telling me shit like riven and jax beat darius, and I keep dunking on them. there's a reason my elo shot up 150 points since this character's been out and it's because I've stomped pretty much every lane in the nuts. riven and jax are popular picks right now and I'm trashing them, I just don't buy it unless rivens and jaxes at 2-2.1K are trash.
Riven counters him up to level 5 mainly because her Q damage and passive, but once a darius hits 5 and gets level 3 Q he greatly out damages her in trades and the lane becomes a free win for Darius.
On June 04 2012 14:48 drazak wrote: I've found that riven counters him strongly in lane, you can dash away after last hitting and use your shield to tank the DoT. You can also trade effectively with him if you dash away because he can't grab back (the dash distance is a /little/ shorter than his grab range, but dash distance+AA distance is longer). Once you hit 6 as riven it's 100% a kill lane as darius cannot win trades when you're using your ulti.
yea man, people keep telling me shit like riven and jax beat darius, and I keep dunking on them. there's a reason my elo shot up 150 points since this character's been out and it's because I've stomped pretty much every lane in the nuts. riven and jax are popular picks right now and I'm trashing them, I just don't buy it unless rivens and jaxes at 2-2.1K are trash.
Another thing to note is that Riven helps a lot with ganks, which from what I have seen are the bane of Darius.
On May 28 2012 14:47 Requizen wrote: Fiora has murdered the hell out of every Darius I've seen. Neat.
I could see this happening. you're both duking it out 1v1 And as soon as the ult indicator appears over fiora (whenever an opponent darius is fighting gets low enough that his ult would kill them an indicator appears over their champion) she just ults and becomes untargetable and kills darius.
Eh, having played darius I haven't seen this indicator. All I've seen is the indicator for the passive dot.
I just went o customs and tested it for 20 mins. No indicator. Unless u mean one hemo stack = kill, which is apprently what's happening -_-
On June 04 2012 16:43 Alaric wrote: When there's 5 emo stacks, a bleeding silhouette appears atop the champ's model, but it's not related to the killrange apparently.
Edit: also, Kayle's ult shouldn't stop Darius' and refresh its cd, it only makes you take no damage.
On June 04 2012 16:09 Phtes wrote: Don't know if this has been stated but those saying to bait his ulti with Zhonyas, Kayle ulti etc. If he uses his ulti on a target that goes immune the cooldown does refresh, the only item that prevents refresh is if they die with a GA active. Other than that his ulti is a big F U when you think you juked it with zhonyas and come out to find it go off again ._.
On June 04 2012 14:48 drazak wrote: I've found that riven counters him strongly in lane, you can dash away after last hitting and use your shield to tank the DoT. You can also trade effectively with him if you dash away because he can't grab back (the dash distance is a /little/ shorter than his grab range, but dash distance+AA distance is longer). Once you hit 6 as riven it's 100% a kill lane as darius cannot win trades when you're using your ulti.
yea man, people keep telling me shit like riven and jax beat darius, and I keep dunking on them. there's a reason my elo shot up 150 points since this character's been out and it's because I've stomped pretty much every lane in the nuts. riven and jax are popular picks right now and I'm trashing them, I just don't buy it unless rivens and jaxes at 2-2.1K are trash.
Riven counters him up to level 5 mainly because her Q damage and passive, but once a darius hits 5 and gets level 3 Q he greatly out damages her in trades and the lane becomes a free win for Darius.
Why do people keep trying to tell me things like this? I'm telling you, Riven does not out damage Darius alone at any point in laning. No one's been able to trade with me as Darius, they either have the harass to chip me away before engaging or they get dunked. Completely binary.
And yea, sure, getting ganked as Darius sucks, but Darius supports ganks insanely well too. 550 range pull and a slow on ~3 second CD on top of nutty damage output... it's not like Riven's so much better at supporting ganks. Either one of them can roll the lane by supporting a jungler's ganks, but left to their own devices Darius goes in hard on Riven in my experience.
On June 04 2012 16:43 Alaric wrote: When there's 5 emo stacks, a bleeding silhouette appears atop the champ's model, but it's not related to the killrange apparently.
Edit: also, Kayle's ult shouldn't stop Darius' and refresh its cd, it only makes you take no damage.
yea, @ 5 stacks, you get a neato little indicator above their head, but that doesn't indicate that they'll necessarily die from your ult.
On June 04 2012 16:09 Phtes wrote: Don't know if this has been stated but those saying to bait his ulti with Zhonyas, Kayle ulti etc. If he uses his ulti on a target that goes immune the cooldown does refresh, the only item that prevents refresh is if they die with a GA active. Other than that his ulti is a big F U when you think you juked it with zhonyas and come out to find it go off again ._.
On June 04 2012 15:12 Mogwai wrote:
On June 04 2012 14:48 drazak wrote: I've found that riven counters him strongly in lane, you can dash away after last hitting and use your shield to tank the DoT. You can also trade effectively with him if you dash away because he can't grab back (the dash distance is a /little/ shorter than his grab range, but dash distance+AA distance is longer). Once you hit 6 as riven it's 100% a kill lane as darius cannot win trades when you're using your ulti.
yea man, people keep telling me shit like riven and jax beat darius, and I keep dunking on them. there's a reason my elo shot up 150 points since this character's been out and it's because I've stomped pretty much every lane in the nuts. riven and jax are popular picks right now and I'm trashing them, I just don't buy it unless rivens and jaxes at 2-2.1K are trash.
Riven counters him up to level 5 mainly because her Q damage and passive, but once a darius hits 5 and gets level 3 Q he greatly out damages her in trades and the lane becomes a free win for Darius.
Why do people keep trying to tell me things like this? I'm telling you, Riven does not out damage Darius alone at any point in laning. No one's been able to trade with me as Darius, they either have the harass to chip me away before engaging or they get dunked. Completely binary.
And yea, sure, getting ganked as Darius sucks, but Darius supports ganks insanely well too. 550 range pull and a slow on ~3 second CD on top of nutty damage output... it's not like Riven's so much better at supporting ganks. Either one of them can roll the lane by supporting a jungler's ganks, but left to their own devices Darius goes in hard on Riven in my experience.
On June 04 2012 16:43 Alaric wrote: When there's 5 emo stacks, a bleeding silhouette appears atop the champ's model, but it's not related to the killrange apparently.
Edit: also, Kayle's ult shouldn't stop Darius' and refresh its cd, it only makes you take no damage.
yea, @ 5 stacks, you get a neato little indicator above their head, but that doesn't indicate that they'll necessarily die from your ult.
Not necessarily, but who are we kidding. They probably will ;D
I agree with your build - it is similar to what me and Darien are using on him atm, but I have to disagree with wriggles. I just don't feel that he needs to waste 1500 gold on some puny armor, damage and sustain. The gold made to get wriggles is much better spent getting a phage to be more tanky, have more damage and get you more kills than wriggle Your goal in lane is to kill that opposing motherfucker and then push his tower and get objectives with your team, not passively farm top lane while the rest of the team 4v4s the other team, you are supposed to roam mid and bot and kills everybody IMO I just don't feel that it's worth the gold. (My build usually consists of boots, HoG, Hexdrinker and a Phage later turns into trinity or Mallet depending on how well I'm doing))
What lanes? In what lanes do you prefer sustain and armor over health and a slow.. I can think of maybe one, Jax. But then I'd still probably just try the more all in build and try and kill him Malphite too, I guess? But I think Malphite cockblocks you so hard even with sustain that you are forced to roam anyway
I am pretty sure that riven wins trades as long as she can unleash her combo and then get the fuck out, but Darius will win if he manages to prolong the trade. I think it works a little like Jax, she has to jump at you (or you just Q and run), do her combo, and when she tries to run away because her shit is on cooldown, you pull her back and she either has to stay and fight to the death or take free damage. I don't think Riven would win auto-attack trades against a Darius, because he has 1/3 of her cooldowns. But I guess this is just theory, for some reason I haven't actually faced a Riven yet.
On June 05 2012 02:15 OutlaW- wrote: I am pretty sure that riven wins trades as long as she can unleash her combo and then get the fuck out, but Darius will win if he manages to prolong the trade. I think it works a little like Jax, she has to jump at you (or you just Q and run), do her combo, and when she tries to run away because her shit is on cooldown, you pull her back and she either has to stay and fight to the death or take free damage. I don't think Riven would win auto-attack trades against a Darius, because he has 1/3 of her cooldowns. But I guess this is just theory, for some reason I haven't actually faced a Riven yet.
once she gets her ult, you have trouble winning trades vs. her without having the sort of stats that wriggle's gives you. I don't have problems trading with Riven, but I'm typically going tabi -> 1-2 dblades -> wriggle's -> phage, which is pretty much spending your money as efficiently as possible on the stats you need to compete with Riven's damage output.
I guess I would really have to test this out to be sure, I just don't think that getting wriggles on Darius is worth it as it's pretty much killing your late mid and late game potential.. But, like with wriggles bottom, it's a choice that has it's strengths and weaknesses, I just don't like it.
Thoughts on movespeed quints instead of armor quints? Seems like Darius has some problems midgame/lategame getting into range, gets kited a bit easily, but when they get close they get demolished.
On June 05 2012 06:33 bobbob wrote: Thoughts on movespeed quints instead of armor quints? Seems like Darius has some problems midgame/lategame getting into range, gets kited a bit easily, but when they get close they get demolished.
i rarely think that the extra ms from quints would be the difference between dunking and not dunking lategame. it might just be a style thing, but I prefer the resists for laning.
I have one more question - What the hell do you do when facing a good kennen? A properly played kennen has about a 0% chance to lose this match up from my experience.
it's the same as any ranged matchup really. get early ganks and capitalize on all aggressive positioning by them with hook -> dunk. I haven't had much trouble with ranged champs, they are counters, but it's soft because any mistake from them can lead to easy kills for Darius, as all ranged champions get butchered in the span of 1 combo it seems.
Problem is, a good kennen will never come in range for you to hook him. His range is 625, hook's is 550. He can always be just a little too far away, and if you finally manage to pull him, he Es away like the little faggot he is. Haven't you had problems with him?
his range is 575, not 625. also, attacks have animations, so you can run at him and wait for him to start an attack animation, keep running for a split second and then use your pull. having > range doesn't necessarily mean you get to dictate everything about a lane otherwise Cait would never get hit bot lane, but as we all know, that's not the case. the only ranged hero that has proven extremely problematic is teemo and that's because he can blind when you hook to cut your damage down considerably and he's basically ungankable post-6. other than that, as I said before, ranged heroes are soft counters to darius, but they're walking on a razor's edge to stay ahead in the lane because 1 misstep = death.
nerf looks to be fairly gentle. -25% scaling to his passive, ult refresh won't happen nearly as often in teamfights. I'm glad they didn't bury him, I think he'll still be a strong top laner after this nerf, though I am sad that the ult nerf seems to be a considerable nerf to his already weak late game.
I've seen your other guide and I recognize you as a talented player, and this Darius viewpoint also matches how I feel about him perfectly. He's just ridiculous right now.
I fail to see how this small nerf will really balance him out. He's too tanky for the damage he deals out, and his Ult should not be fully refreshed, grace period or no grace period.
I really expect Riot to nerf him more in the upcoming patches....but I'm having too much fun owning it up with him that I'm inclined to get him.
What are people's thoughts on Darius being countered (or at least not allowed to snowball in lane) by Shen? Constant shield and heal to counter act bleed harass damage, safe ranged csing ability, hell he even has the ability to prevent a Darius ult refresh on others by ulting.
On June 06 2012 16:53 WaveofShadow wrote: What are people's thoughts on Darius being countered (or at least not allowed to snowball in lane) by Shen? Constant shield and heal to counter act bleed harass damage, safe ranged csing ability, hell he even has the ability to prevent a Darius ult refresh on others by ulting.
On June 06 2012 16:53 WaveofShadow wrote: What are people's thoughts on Darius being countered (or at least not allowed to snowball in lane) by Shen? Constant shield and heal to counter act bleed harass damage, safe ranged csing ability, hell he even has the ability to prevent a Darius ult refresh on others by ulting.
Thoughts?
buwahahahahahahahahahaha
oh man, you guys are too funny on these forums.
you don't have to be a dick waveofshadow is a nice poster with a genuine question
as for my input, i agree with you wave darius should never be able to kill shen because of shen's dash at the very least at the worst i see this as a freefarm lane otherwise shen can build some early armor and still do a ton of damage to darius the only hard part is, with the frequency these guys are banned, seeing either yet alone both in the same game
You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3. If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x)
On June 06 2012 16:53 WaveofShadow wrote: What are people's thoughts on Darius being countered (or at least not allowed to snowball in lane) by Shen? Constant shield and heal to counter act bleed harass damage, safe ranged csing ability, hell he even has the ability to prevent a Darius ult refresh on others by ulting.
Thoughts?
buwahahahahahahahahahaha
oh man, you guys are too funny on these forums.
you don't have to be a dick waveofshadow is a nice poster with a genuine question
as for my input, i agree with you wave darius should never be able to kill shen because of shen's dash at the very least at the worst i see this as a freefarm lane otherwise shen can build some early armor and still do a ton of damage to darius the only hard part is, with the frequency these guys are banned, seeing either yet alone both in the same game
you're right, that was uncalled for.
Darius does dunk Shen though in my experience. Shen can't come even close to keeping up with his damage output. Vorpal is such a short range that Darius can trade his Qs for Shen's Qs which puts darius considerably ahead in the damage trades and Shen can't commit either or he gets completely bodied by Darius W and passive. Which means Shen's only way to have evenish trades is Q + W for Darius Q, at which point Darius can rope Shen in with his E, auto -> W, Shen ki strikes for energy back to dash away and then he's slowed and Darius is hasted, which lets Darius catch up for more follow up damage and wicked dunks.
I've played the matchup 3 times on stream and every time the lane has proven to be a fairly straight forward win, even if I make costly mistakes early, once I get wriggle's, Shen's completely incapable of hanging with me in lane. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320408052 1:20:00ish. I botch the lane early and then still dunk him. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320140788 1:30:00ish. Hardly counts because of the level 1 fight, but dunked. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/319341538 first game. Again I start with an early disadvatage (no flash from level 1 invade) and then dunk him.
On June 07 2012 01:20 Alaric wrote: You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3. If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x)
While his passive does scale, it scales by level, while shen's Q scales by rank and will outscale your passive's dots, giving him the ability to outtrade vs Darius pre-6. Beyond that, his Q outranges anything Darius has other then his E, so it allows shen to poke and zone, and gives him the initiator's advantage.
But the main reason why Shen is a soft counter to Darius is not his kit, it's his item build. Shen's damage and healing all scale off of HP, meaning he builds mostly Tanky HP items(warmogs, sunfire). Tanky HP items are the perfect counter to Darius's true damage and ArP.
On June 07 2012 01:20 Alaric wrote: You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3. If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x)
While his passive does scale, it scales by level, while shen's Q scales by rank and will outscale your passive's dots, giving him the ability to outtrade vs Darius pre-6. Beyond that, his Q outranges anything Darius has other then his E, so it allows shen to poke and zone, and gives him the initiator's advantage.
But the main reason why Shen is a soft counter to Darius is not his kit, it's his item build. Shen's damage and healing all scale off of HP, meaning he builds mostly Tanky HP items(warmogs, sunfire). Tanky HP items are the perfect counter to Darius's true damage and ArP.
Shen's Q has 475 range to Darius's Q with 425 and Shen's Q has enough of an animation that darius can close that 50 range with ease for trading unless you're creep blocked.
It doesn't feel like they removed the grace period assist refresh on his Ult. I used it 4+ times in a team fight just now, but only got 2 of the kills. (5th got cut off by the Surrender)
Anyone else had any experiences with his ult since the patch?
On June 07 2012 02:38 Sven Stryker wrote: It doesn't feel like they removed the grace period assist refresh on his Ult. I used it 4+ times in a team fight just now, but only got 2 of the kills. (5th got cut off by the Surrender)
Anyone else had any experiences with his ult since the patch?
i just played him, here is how i explain it: Even if you do not get the kill with the ult, but the enemy dies within your ult animation (before your damage sets in), you still get the refresh it is like caitlyn getting her ult on 5 sec CD when the enemy dies/moves out of sight range while she starts to channel her ult but the mana is gone anyway
On June 07 2012 01:20 Alaric wrote: You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3. If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x)
While his passive does scale, it scales by level, while shen's Q scales by rank and will outscale your passive's dots, giving him the ability to outtrade vs Darius pre-6. Beyond that, his Q outranges anything Darius has other then his E, so it allows shen to poke and zone, and gives him the initiator's advantage.
But the main reason why Shen is a soft counter to Darius is not his kit, it's his item build. Shen's damage and healing all scale off of HP, meaning he builds mostly Tanky HP items(warmogs, sunfire). Tanky HP items are the perfect counter to Darius's true damage and ArP.
Shen's Q has 475 range to Darius's Q with 425 and Shen's Q has enough of an animation that darius can close that 50 range with ease for trading unless you're creep blocked.
I don't understand why people always use the attack animation as an excuse to discount the range advantage. Every attack has an animation, including darius's. Beyond that, I think most people know that the animation on attacks in internet RTS and MMO games has no bearing on the actual mechanics w/ in the game. That's the reason why Colossus occasionally drags it's laser beyond its 9 range in SC2. You can escape his Q pretty easily even w/ it as long as he does not have an MS advantage.
On June 06 2012 16:53 WaveofShadow wrote: What are people's thoughts on Darius being countered (or at least not allowed to snowball in lane) by Shen? Constant shield and heal to counter act bleed harass damage, safe ranged csing ability, hell he even has the ability to prevent a Darius ult refresh on others by ulting.
Thoughts?
buwahahahahahahahahahaha
oh man, you guys are too funny on these forums.
you don't have to be a dick waveofshadow is a nice poster with a genuine question
as for my input, i agree with you wave darius should never be able to kill shen because of shen's dash at the very least at the worst i see this as a freefarm lane otherwise shen can build some early armor and still do a ton of damage to darius the only hard part is, with the frequency these guys are banned, seeing either yet alone both in the same game
you're right, that was uncalled for.
Darius does dunk Shen though in my experience. Shen can't come even close to keeping up with his damage output. Vorpal is such a short range that Darius can trade his Qs for Shen's Qs which puts darius considerably ahead in the damage trades and Shen can't commit either or he gets completely bodied by Darius W and passive. Which means Shen's only way to have evenish trades is Q + W for Darius Q, at which point Darius can rope Shen in with his E, auto -> W, Shen ki strikes for energy back to dash away and then he's slowed and Darius is hasted, which lets Darius catch up for more follow up damage and wicked dunks.
I've played the matchup 3 times on stream and every time the lane has proven to be a fairly straight forward win, even if I make costly mistakes early, once I get wriggle's, Shen's completely incapable of hanging with me in lane. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320408052 1:20:00ish. I botch the lane early and then still dunk him. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320140788 1:30:00ish. Hardly counts because of the level 1 fight, but dunked. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/319341538 first game. Again I start with an early disadvatage (no flash from level 1 invade) and then dunk him.
No worries, but thanks gtr for the kind words. I definitely understand how Darius out-trades basically everyone he could possibly lane against, but what I was trying to go for with the Shen lane was perhaps avoiding overt trading (meaning obviously falling behind in cs early) and rather healing up and csing with Q when he can. Darius is going to push the lane by using Q and I know dunking under turret is usually pretty easy for him, but even against a Shen who naturally builds HP/Armor + Taunt? I'm just trying to theorycraft something not because I think this should work, but because I just don't like the idea of someone being basically uncounterable in lane when I come across him. Really just rubs me (and I'm sure a lot of other people) the wrong way.
On June 07 2012 01:20 Alaric wrote: You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3. If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x)
While his passive does scale, it scales by level, while shen's Q scales by rank and will outscale your passive's dots, giving him the ability to outtrade vs Darius pre-6. Beyond that, his Q outranges anything Darius has other then his E, so it allows shen to poke and zone, and gives him the initiator's advantage.
But the main reason why Shen is a soft counter to Darius is not his kit, it's his item build. Shen's damage and healing all scale off of HP, meaning he builds mostly Tanky HP items(warmogs, sunfire). Tanky HP items are the perfect counter to Darius's true damage and ArP.
Shen's Q has 475 range to Darius's Q with 425 and Shen's Q has enough of an animation that darius can close that 50 range with ease for trading unless you're creep blocked.
I don't understand why people always use the attack animation as an excuse to discount the range advantage. Every attack has an animation, including darius's. Beyond that, I think most people know that the animation on attacks in internet RTS and MMO games has no bearing on the actual mechanics w/ in the game. That's the reason why Colossus occasionally drags it's laser beyond its 9 range in SC2. You can escape his Q pretty easily even w/ it as long as he does not have an MS advantage.
there's really no discussion to be had here because you apparently don't believe in ranges, nor do you understand how animations work since you're arguing that Darius has animations too, which is not the point because Darius's Q has an instant cast time and Shen's Q has an animation that lasts beyond throwing the sword, thus allowing Darius to close the gap on the tail end of Shen's animation.
On June 06 2012 16:53 WaveofShadow wrote: What are people's thoughts on Darius being countered (or at least not allowed to snowball in lane) by Shen? Constant shield and heal to counter act bleed harass damage, safe ranged csing ability, hell he even has the ability to prevent a Darius ult refresh on others by ulting.
Thoughts?
buwahahahahahahahahahaha
oh man, you guys are too funny on these forums.
you don't have to be a dick waveofshadow is a nice poster with a genuine question
as for my input, i agree with you wave darius should never be able to kill shen because of shen's dash at the very least at the worst i see this as a freefarm lane otherwise shen can build some early armor and still do a ton of damage to darius the only hard part is, with the frequency these guys are banned, seeing either yet alone both in the same game
you're right, that was uncalled for.
Darius does dunk Shen though in my experience. Shen can't come even close to keeping up with his damage output. Vorpal is such a short range that Darius can trade his Qs for Shen's Qs which puts darius considerably ahead in the damage trades and Shen can't commit either or he gets completely bodied by Darius W and passive. Which means Shen's only way to have evenish trades is Q + W for Darius Q, at which point Darius can rope Shen in with his E, auto -> W, Shen ki strikes for energy back to dash away and then he's slowed and Darius is hasted, which lets Darius catch up for more follow up damage and wicked dunks.
I've played the matchup 3 times on stream and every time the lane has proven to be a fairly straight forward win, even if I make costly mistakes early, once I get wriggle's, Shen's completely incapable of hanging with me in lane. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320408052 1:20:00ish. I botch the lane early and then still dunk him. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320140788 1:30:00ish. Hardly counts because of the level 1 fight, but dunked. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/319341538 first game. Again I start with an early disadvatage (no flash from level 1 invade) and then dunk him.
No worries, but thanks gtr for the kind words. I definitely understand how Darius out-trades basically everyone he could possibly lane against, but what I was trying to go for with the Shen lane was perhaps avoiding overt trading (meaning obviously falling behind in cs early) and rather healing up and csing with Q when he can. Darius is going to push the lane by using Q and I know dunking under turret is usually pretty easy for him, but even against a Shen who naturally builds HP/Armor + Taunt? I'm just trying to theorycraft something not because I think this should work, but because I just don't like the idea of someone being basically uncounterable in lane when I come across him. Really just rubs me (and I'm sure a lot of other people) the wrong way.
The problem is that trying to defensively outscale Darius's damage is fighting a losing battle. He just does too much diverse damage (magic damage passive, physical autos + Q + W, true damage R) that all scales off of AD for you to be able to win via defense.
That being said, he's not uncounterable. He's counterable by ranged champs. Teemo is the most obvious and strong counter. Kayle probably does well vs. him though I've never had to play the matchup. I still haven't had to play the Udyr vs. Darius matchup and I can believe that Udyr would be able to trade, but it's too close to call for me without actually playing it a few times. (side note: why the fuck did people stop playing udyr top?)
On June 07 2012 01:20 Alaric wrote: You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3. If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x)
While his passive does scale, it scales by level, while shen's Q scales by rank and will outscale your passive's dots, giving him the ability to outtrade vs Darius pre-6. Beyond that, his Q outranges anything Darius has other then his E, so it allows shen to poke and zone, and gives him the initiator's advantage.
But the main reason why Shen is a soft counter to Darius is not his kit, it's his item build. Shen's damage and healing all scale off of HP, meaning he builds mostly Tanky HP items(warmogs, sunfire). Tanky HP items are the perfect counter to Darius's true damage and ArP.
Shen's Q has 475 range to Darius's Q with 425 and Shen's Q has enough of an animation that darius can close that 50 range with ease for trading unless you're creep blocked.
I don't understand why people always use the attack animation as an excuse to discount the range advantage. Every attack has an animation, including darius's. Beyond that, I think most people know that the animation on attacks in internet RTS and MMO games has no bearing on the actual mechanics w/ in the game. That's the reason why Colossus occasionally drags it's laser beyond its 9 range in SC2. You can escape his Q pretty easily even w/ it as long as he does not have an MS advantage.
there's really no discussion to be had here because you apparently don't believe in ranges, nor do you understand how animations work since you're arguing that Darius has animations too, which is not the point because Darius's Q has an instant cast time and Shen's Q has an animation that lasts beyond throwing the sword, thus allowing Darius to close the gap on the tail end of Shen's animation.
On June 06 2012 16:53 WaveofShadow wrote: What are people's thoughts on Darius being countered (or at least not allowed to snowball in lane) by Shen? Constant shield and heal to counter act bleed harass damage, safe ranged csing ability, hell he even has the ability to prevent a Darius ult refresh on others by ulting.
Thoughts?
buwahahahahahahahahahaha
oh man, you guys are too funny on these forums.
you don't have to be a dick waveofshadow is a nice poster with a genuine question
as for my input, i agree with you wave darius should never be able to kill shen because of shen's dash at the very least at the worst i see this as a freefarm lane otherwise shen can build some early armor and still do a ton of damage to darius the only hard part is, with the frequency these guys are banned, seeing either yet alone both in the same game
you're right, that was uncalled for.
Darius does dunk Shen though in my experience. Shen can't come even close to keeping up with his damage output. Vorpal is such a short range that Darius can trade his Qs for Shen's Qs which puts darius considerably ahead in the damage trades and Shen can't commit either or he gets completely bodied by Darius W and passive. Which means Shen's only way to have evenish trades is Q + W for Darius Q, at which point Darius can rope Shen in with his E, auto -> W, Shen ki strikes for energy back to dash away and then he's slowed and Darius is hasted, which lets Darius catch up for more follow up damage and wicked dunks.
I've played the matchup 3 times on stream and every time the lane has proven to be a fairly straight forward win, even if I make costly mistakes early, once I get wriggle's, Shen's completely incapable of hanging with me in lane. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320408052 1:20:00ish. I botch the lane early and then still dunk him. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320140788 1:30:00ish. Hardly counts because of the level 1 fight, but dunked. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/319341538 first game. Again I start with an early disadvatage (no flash from level 1 invade) and then dunk him.
No worries, but thanks gtr for the kind words. I definitely understand how Darius out-trades basically everyone he could possibly lane against, but what I was trying to go for with the Shen lane was perhaps avoiding overt trading (meaning obviously falling behind in cs early) and rather healing up and csing with Q when he can. Darius is going to push the lane by using Q and I know dunking under turret is usually pretty easy for him, but even against a Shen who naturally builds HP/Armor + Taunt? I'm just trying to theorycraft something not because I think this should work, but because I just don't like the idea of someone being basically uncounterable in lane when I come across him. Really just rubs me (and I'm sure a lot of other people) the wrong way.
The problem is that trying to defensively outscale Darius's damage is fighting a losing battle. He just does too much diverse damage (magic damage passive, physical autos + Q + W, true damage R) that all scales off of AD for you to be able to win via defense.
That being said, he's not uncounterable. He's counterable by ranged champs. Teemo is the most obvious and strong counter. Kayle probably does well vs. him though I've never had to play the matchup. I still haven't had to play the Udyr vs. Darius matchup and I can believe that Udyr would be able to trade, but it's too close to call for me without actually playing it a few times. (side note: why the fuck did people stop playing udyr top?)
I played Kayle a bunch of times vs all sorts of tops during my little 1900-2k climb.
I think Kayle would have to play EXTREMELY careful and only end up harassing with her Q since if she gets pulled into darius's range, she's going to lose the trade. She'll definitely win level 1-3, but after those 3 crucial levels, darius starts gaining the edge. The only way I can see Kayle doing well in the lane is to go balls deep and force darius back or kill him before level 5 and gain a small enough advantage there to keep him always behind. If you don't manage to harass him out of lane, his kite and scaling will overpower you and die. Kayle can't kite darius around because her auto range is within his Q and pull if i'm correct?
Take note I am a 1300s newb so be nice if this is a silly statement .
Nasus IMO is a pretty average champ, and whilst this has only been in normals, but I've smashed every Darius I've played with Nasus. Even early game I've traded fine with auto Q auto, then once I have tabi and wriggles he cannot trade with me at all.
Is wriggles silly on Nasus (I wanted retarded sustain and more armor), am I just vs bad players (only tried this in normals so far) or is Nasus actually a viable counter to Darius?
On June 07 2012 13:56 schmutttt wrote: Take note I am a 1300s newb so be nice if this is a silly statement .
Nasus IMO is a pretty average champ, and whilst this has only been in normals, but I've smashed every Darius I've played with Nasus. Even early game I've traded fine with auto Q auto, then once I have tabi and wriggles he cannot trade with me at all.
Is wriggles silly on Nasus (I wanted retarded sustain and more armor), am I just vs bad players (only tried this in normals so far) or is Nasus actually a viable counter to Darius?
Wriggles is not a bad choice on Nasus, but that doesn't mean you shoudl pick it up all the time. It's situational.
And a good Darius butchers Nasus. It's not even close.
On June 07 2012 01:20 Alaric wrote: You need to hit to heal, or to last hit with the dagger. If you do the former you're zoned (since you want to heal because he probably outtraded you) and even if you're not you're pushing, and if you do the latter then you won't have healed much before his E comes back. Well you can always dash away from him I guess.
As for fighting him, you underestimate his passive's damage, and since you'll keep your shield at level 1 while he maxes his b'n'b Q which (? not sure of the word) mana cost doesn't go up, it loses value from level 3. If you try to engage him, if he loses he'll W you and use the slow + his passive's bonus MS to disengage (if you don't taunt-engage he'll just run away while Qing you with the blade), if he wins he'll have the slow + his E to pull you back if you try to dash away.
Not sure how badly the trades go damage-wise, tho, and you spoke about "disallow to snowball" by which I guess you meant "farm fest with no killing potential". Smash "seems" to think the D wins. x)
While his passive does scale, it scales by level, while shen's Q scales by rank and will outscale your passive's dots, giving him the ability to outtrade vs Darius pre-6. Beyond that, his Q outranges anything Darius has other then his E, so it allows shen to poke and zone, and gives him the initiator's advantage.
But the main reason why Shen is a soft counter to Darius is not his kit, it's his item build. Shen's damage and healing all scale off of HP, meaning he builds mostly Tanky HP items(warmogs, sunfire). Tanky HP items are the perfect counter to Darius's true damage and ArP.
Shen's Q has 475 range to Darius's Q with 425 and Shen's Q has enough of an animation that darius can close that 50 range with ease for trading unless you're creep blocked.
I don't understand why people always use the attack animation as an excuse to discount the range advantage. Every attack has an animation, including darius's. Beyond that, I think most people know that the animation on attacks in internet RTS and MMO games has no bearing on the actual mechanics w/ in the game. That's the reason why Colossus occasionally drags it's laser beyond its 9 range in SC2. You can escape his Q pretty easily even w/ it as long as he does not have an MS advantage.
there's really no discussion to be had here because you apparently don't believe in ranges, nor do you understand how animations work since you're arguing that Darius has animations too, which is not the point because Darius's Q has an instant cast time and Shen's Q has an animation that lasts beyond throwing the sword, thus allowing Darius to close the gap on the tail end of Shen's animation.
On June 07 2012 09:13 WaveofShadow wrote:
On June 07 2012 01:57 Mogwai wrote:
On June 07 2012 01:19 gtrsrs wrote:
On June 07 2012 01:06 Mogwai wrote:
On June 06 2012 16:53 WaveofShadow wrote: What are people's thoughts on Darius being countered (or at least not allowed to snowball in lane) by Shen? Constant shield and heal to counter act bleed harass damage, safe ranged csing ability, hell he even has the ability to prevent a Darius ult refresh on others by ulting.
Thoughts?
buwahahahahahahahahahaha
oh man, you guys are too funny on these forums.
you don't have to be a dick waveofshadow is a nice poster with a genuine question
as for my input, i agree with you wave darius should never be able to kill shen because of shen's dash at the very least at the worst i see this as a freefarm lane otherwise shen can build some early armor and still do a ton of damage to darius the only hard part is, with the frequency these guys are banned, seeing either yet alone both in the same game
you're right, that was uncalled for.
Darius does dunk Shen though in my experience. Shen can't come even close to keeping up with his damage output. Vorpal is such a short range that Darius can trade his Qs for Shen's Qs which puts darius considerably ahead in the damage trades and Shen can't commit either or he gets completely bodied by Darius W and passive. Which means Shen's only way to have evenish trades is Q + W for Darius Q, at which point Darius can rope Shen in with his E, auto -> W, Shen ki strikes for energy back to dash away and then he's slowed and Darius is hasted, which lets Darius catch up for more follow up damage and wicked dunks.
I've played the matchup 3 times on stream and every time the lane has proven to be a fairly straight forward win, even if I make costly mistakes early, once I get wriggle's, Shen's completely incapable of hanging with me in lane. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320408052 1:20:00ish. I botch the lane early and then still dunk him. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/320140788 1:30:00ish. Hardly counts because of the level 1 fight, but dunked. http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/319341538 first game. Again I start with an early disadvatage (no flash from level 1 invade) and then dunk him.
No worries, but thanks gtr for the kind words. I definitely understand how Darius out-trades basically everyone he could possibly lane against, but what I was trying to go for with the Shen lane was perhaps avoiding overt trading (meaning obviously falling behind in cs early) and rather healing up and csing with Q when he can. Darius is going to push the lane by using Q and I know dunking under turret is usually pretty easy for him, but even against a Shen who naturally builds HP/Armor + Taunt? I'm just trying to theorycraft something not because I think this should work, but because I just don't like the idea of someone being basically uncounterable in lane when I come across him. Really just rubs me (and I'm sure a lot of other people) the wrong way.
The problem is that trying to defensively outscale Darius's damage is fighting a losing battle. He just does too much diverse damage (magic damage passive, physical autos + Q + W, true damage R) that all scales off of AD for you to be able to win via defense.
That being said, he's not uncounterable. He's counterable by ranged champs. Teemo is the most obvious and strong counter. Kayle probably does well vs. him though I've never had to play the matchup. I still haven't had to play the Udyr vs. Darius matchup and I can believe that Udyr would be able to trade, but it's too close to call for me without actually playing it a few times. (side note: why the fuck did people stop playing udyr top?)
I played Kayle a bunch of times vs all sorts of tops during my little 1900-2k climb.
I think Kayle would have to play EXTREMELY careful and only end up harassing with her Q since if she gets pulled into darius's range, she's going to lose the trade. She'll definitely win level 1-3, but after those 3 crucial levels, darius starts gaining the edge. The only way I can see Kayle doing well in the lane is to go balls deep and force darius back or kill him before level 5 and gain a small enough advantage there to keep him always behind. If you don't manage to harass him out of lane, his kite and scaling will overpower you and die. Kayle can't kite darius around because her auto range is within his Q and pull if i'm correct?
his E range > her auto range > his Q range I think your description of the matchup sounds about right. Kayle should have a tentative hold on the pacing of the matchup, but a single fuckup can be an insta-dunk -> snowball.
On June 07 2012 14:02 schmutttt wrote: Really? I must be playing awful players then . I didn't try and trade 1-3 too much but as the game went on I could do whatever I want.
Thanks for the quick reply .
yea, there's really no way nasus should be able to compete with a good darius. he'll just butcher you since you can't just stack armor and win like nasus can in some matchups.
irelia v darius, from irelia's perspective? thought it would be real straightforward, just play defensively and farm until 2 gp10 and wriggles, but he was literally towerdiving me npnp at level 3 and then with a jungler at 6.
On June 07 2012 17:32 broz0rs wrote: lol I still can't believe there's a champ that has a true damage scaling ult that refreshes upon kills. that is just ridunkulous.
Cho gaths had a scaling true damage ult for a long time, just it doesnt refresh.
On June 07 2012 17:09 gtrsrs wrote: irelia v darius, from irelia's perspective? thought it would be real straightforward, just play defensively and farm until 2 gp10 and wriggles, but he was literally towerdiving me npnp at level 3 and then with a jungler at 6.
21 def and it's all good. gotta be patient and wait out ganks. your main advantage is him being way more gankable than you especially if he's harassing a lot with q which pushes and also keeps you low for an e stun
as far as items go I've tried philo tabi hog aegis zeke and really appreciated the health buffer. I've seen triple dshield work as well
On June 07 2012 17:09 gtrsrs wrote: irelia v darius, from irelia's perspective? thought it would be real straightforward, just play defensively and farm until 2 gp10 and wriggles, but he was literally towerdiving me npnp at level 3 and then with a jungler at 6.
playing defensively does not beat Darius. I keep trying to tell you guys this. His damage is too high and too diverse for you to pick a sustainer and all-in on defensive stats successfully. You're fighting uphill all game just to not die in lane.
On June 07 2012 17:09 gtrsrs wrote: irelia v darius, from irelia's perspective? thought it would be real straightforward, just play defensively and farm until 2 gp10 and wriggles, but he was literally towerdiving me npnp at level 3 and then with a jungler at 6.
21 def and it's all good. gotta be patient and wait out ganks. your main advantage is him being way more gankable than you especially if he's harassing a lot with q which pushes and also keeps you low for an e stun
as far as items go I've tried philo tabi hog aegis zeke and really appreciated the health buffer. I've seen triple dshield work as well
philohog vs. Darius is asking to get dunked. the regen from philo is essentially meaningless vs. Darius. once he goes all in, he's going to kill you or put you so low that you have to back off. you're also never going to be sustaining casts enough to need the mana regen in lane. Setting yourself back 800 gold vs. someone with an already strong early game is just a bad idea. I think Irelia's going to get dunked either way, but if I had to guess about the best way to play the matchup, I'd say that tabi + hog -> phage and pray to god that you get enough ganks to get at least 2 levels ahead of him.
I played Olaf vs him (and asked a bit in the Olaf thread), is there a way for Olaf to win that lane? His burst damage output demolishes Olaf's, which led me to an early couple deaths (one that was my fault, another was a Rammus dive that couldn't be helped), and left me with throwing Q and trying to last hit while not dying and stacking health and armor to no avail.
Is this just a tough matchup for Olaf/easy matchup for Darius?
On June 08 2012 00:35 Requizen wrote: I played Olaf vs him (and asked a bit in the Olaf thread), is there a way for Olaf to win that lane? His burst damage output demolishes Olaf's, which led me to an early couple deaths (one that was my fault, another was a Rammus dive that couldn't be helped), and left me with throwing Q and trying to last hit while not dying and stacking health and armor to no avail.
Is this just a tough matchup for Olaf/easy matchup for Darius?
haven't had to play this matchup yet, but Olaf's a melee ranged champion and I haven't had even the slightest bit of trouble outtrading a melee champ yet on Darius, so I imagine Darius should win pretty handily.
I've had a lot of success with Kennen vs Darius. Just been starting out AD (boots->2xDblades->Sorcshoes->normal Ap crap, WEQWW, R>W>Q>E) and zoning.
Its pretty safe, and if you can bait out a Q or two in minions early you can hold him without CS for a long time while keeping him relatively extended. Dude still has like the most kill potential in the game though... (although I have a knack for getting killed by people I am beating in lane. I dunno, it just thing I guess.)
Kennen hasn't proven too problematic for me as Darius. He's as annoying as any ranged champ, but i feel like every pull vs. him is an easy auto W auto Q and if he stays on lane after that, the next pull is the same but ending in an R and he just dies. Having his escape as a haste rather than a blink really hurts him against the slow from W IMO.
Yeah, I could see that. Darius wrecks Kennen in a flat out engage.
I do think though that the only time you'd really be in range to get hooked is if you just auto'd darius, and once he six I dont think its wise to poke him without your W enhanced auto (giving you 1 mark), in which case should be pretty easy to press W land a Q and disengage while he stunned without eating that full combo.
The only people I can see winning hard against Darius are those that can abuse his lack of mobility (Teemo, Swain, maybe Vlad), those that can tank his damage long enough to escape/gank (can't honestly think of anyone off the top of my head, maybe Udyr?), or those that who have enough sustain or burst to out-damage him in fights (the only one I can think of is maybe Renek or in certain cases, Riven).
I'm not going to jump on the OP bandwagon, but you have to admit his early/mid/laning phase is insane compared to a majority of the champions. Admittedly, later on he's relegated to more or less being an Ult bot, but he does it pretty well, all things considered.
On June 08 2012 01:27 Requizen wrote: The only people I can see winning hard against Darius are those that can abuse his lack of mobility (Teemo, Swain, maybe Vlad), those that can tank his damage long enough to escape/gank (can't honestly think of anyone off the top of my head, maybe Udyr?), or those that who have enough sustain or burst to out-damage him in fights (the only one I can think of is maybe Renek or in certain cases, Riven).
I'm not going to jump on the OP bandwagon, but you have to admit his early/mid/laning phase is insane compared to a majority of the champions. Admittedly, later on he's relegated to more or less being an Ult bot, but he does it pretty well, all things considered.
haven't had to play vs. Swain. I'm not too concerned about the matchup. Swain's mobility is a joke, so I'm pretty sure I'll just hit an E and kill him. everyone likes to talk about swain being strong top, but he's so so weak early on and totally exposed to ganks at all points. I don't lose any sleep thinking about the matchup.
Vlad has gotten dunked every time I've played it. His damage it too low unless he commits and if he commits, darius outdamages him hard.
the biggest thing about teemo is that his blind basically cuts a standard Darius rotation's damage in half past level 5. If you're smart about blinding when you predict a Darius E, you outtrade and then can follow up with kite bullying while he waits for his E CD again.
how is the lulu vs darius matchup? shield+glitterlance should allow her to get some harass off without ever getting into hook range and shield-polymorph-slow should mitigate a ton of damage if forced to trade. then there's also the hp from her ult being one of the few defensive measures that are actually useful against a true damage nuke.
On June 08 2012 01:27 Requizen wrote: The only people I can see winning hard against Darius are those that can abuse his lack of mobility (Teemo, Swain, maybe Vlad), those that can tank his damage long enough to escape/gank (can't honestly think of anyone off the top of my head, maybe Udyr?), or those that who have enough sustain or burst to out-damage him in fights (the only one I can think of is maybe Renek or in certain cases, Riven).
I'm not going to jump on the OP bandwagon, but you have to admit his early/mid/laning phase is insane compared to a majority of the champions. Admittedly, later on he's relegated to more or less being an Ult bot, but he does it pretty well, all things considered.
haven't had to play vs. Swain. I'm not too concerned about the matchup. Swain's mobility is a joke, so I'm pretty sure I'll just hit an E and kill him. everyone likes to talk about swain being strong top, but he's so so weak early on and totally exposed to ganks at all points. I don't lose any sleep thinking about the matchup.
Vlad has gotten dunked every time I've played it. His damage it too low unless he commits and if he commits, darius outdamages him hard.
the biggest thing about teemo is that his blind basically cuts a standard Darius rotation's damage in half past level 5. If you're smart about blinding when you predict a Darius E, you outtrade and then can follow up with kite bullying while he waits for his E CD again.
I actually don't play Darius a whole lot (Swain and Vlad never), so I was just spitballing really. I'll trust your experience over my ideas. I really picked Swain because of his range increases and his slow buff in this last patch, plus the fact that he craps on a lot of other strong melee tops, especially post-6. But I agree he'd never be able to stand to Darius in a straight fight.
@Outlaw: I'd agree with that. Teemo does great against him like he does against every other bruiser top. If you're smart with blind, you really only have to deal with his Q and Ult, which should be no problem.
Renek did really well against him from what I saw, since he has no mana to worry about and can Slice in, hit, stun, Dice out, and then heal back on minions and what not, while his Ult makes engaging against him scary. Though, I was only watching it while jungling, so I couldn't speak to the skills of either Darius or Renek any time I saw it.
On June 08 2012 01:45 OutlaW- wrote: So who would you recommend the most to counter him, teemo?
yes, Teemo.
On June 08 2012 01:56 chalice wrote: how is the lulu vs darius matchup? shield+glitterlance should allow her to get some harass off without ever getting into hook range and shield-polymorph-slow should mitigate a ton of damage if forced to trade. then there's also the hp from her ult being one of the few defensive measures that are actually useful against a true damage nuke.
I dunked the one lulu I played against. Lulu feels so much weaker than Teemo top, I dunno, I just think the character's mediocre in solo lanes.
On June 08 2012 01:27 Requizen wrote: The only people I can see winning hard against Darius are those that can abuse his lack of mobility (Teemo, Swain, maybe Vlad), those that can tank his damage long enough to escape/gank (can't honestly think of anyone off the top of my head, maybe Udyr?), or those that who have enough sustain or burst to out-damage him in fights (the only one I can think of is maybe Renek or in certain cases, Riven).
I'm not going to jump on the OP bandwagon, but you have to admit his early/mid/laning phase is insane compared to a majority of the champions. Admittedly, later on he's relegated to more or less being an Ult bot, but he does it pretty well, all things considered.
haven't had to play vs. Swain. I'm not too concerned about the matchup. Swain's mobility is a joke, so I'm pretty sure I'll just hit an E and kill him. everyone likes to talk about swain being strong top, but he's so so weak early on and totally exposed to ganks at all points. I don't lose any sleep thinking about the matchup.
Vlad has gotten dunked every time I've played it. His damage it too low unless he commits and if he commits, darius outdamages him hard.
the biggest thing about teemo is that his blind basically cuts a standard Darius rotation's damage in half past level 5. If you're smart about blinding when you predict a Darius E, you outtrade and then can follow up with kite bullying while he waits for his E CD again.
I actually don't play Darius a whole lot (Swain and Vlad never), so I was just spitballing really. I'll trust your experience over my ideas. I really picked Swain because of his range increases and his slow buff in this last patch, plus the fact that he craps on a lot of other strong melee tops, especially post-6. But I agree he'd never be able to stand to Darius in a straight fight.
@Outlaw: I'd agree with that. Teemo does great against him like he does against every other bruiser top. If you're smart with blind, you really only have to deal with his Q and Ult, which should be no problem.
Renek did really well against him from what I saw, since he has no mana to worry about and can Slice in, hit, stun, Dice out, and then heal back on minions and what not, while his Ult makes engaging against him scary. Though, I was only watching it while jungling, so I couldn't speak to the skills of either Darius or Renek any time I saw it.
I think I had to play Darius vs. Renek once and that I won fairly handily. Renek takes too long to ramp up in lane and while his 6 is scary, it's not so scary that Darius cannot dunk on it.
I dunno guys, I can't really figured out if I'm biased on this champ or not. I'm 22-8 with him and since his release I jumped from ~2K to 224X. He just feels really damn strong and like I crush every lane with him.
I think I had to play Darius vs. Renek once and that I won fairly handily. Renek takes too long to ramp up in lane and while his 6 is scary, it's not so scary that Darius cannot dunk on it.
I dunno guys, I can't really figured out if I'm biased on this champ or not. I'm 22-8 with him and since his release I jumped from ~2K to 224X. He just feels really damn strong and like I crush every lane with him.
It's worth noting that you're primarily an aggressive solotop player (Wukong, J4, Panth) so Darius fits right it with your playstyle explaining why you do so well with him.
MLG this weekend is played on the Darius patch so if he's as strong as people say, maybe the pros will pick up on it? Or maybe he is just a solo Q pubstomper and not worth picking up in arranged team...?
I dunno what to expect. None of the pro top laners are running much Darius and I doubt he clicks with any of them well enough to justify the pick. The only one I see with decent numbers is Wickd, and I fully expect him to continue just picking champs he can run straight FH + Omen on.
He is a lot weaker in an organized setting too IMO.
I haven't lost a lane to a darius since he came out, except once, when i had to deal with a Jungler that thought darius on his team means camp top for free kills. we won that game because our mid and bot snowballed but i had to sit under tower half the match because the jungler Hotshotgg'd the top river bush. but that was pretty much a 1v2 lane, and not a me vs darius.
I've beaten darius with irelia, wu, lee sin, yorick and especially Renekton. Every time i picked renekton it was a horrible horrible game for that darius. So i guess i'm biased in the opposite way mogwai, I think he's trash.
Also something to keep in mind, is every character with command dashes, can dash out of the pull, Rene, Shen, gragas ect. you just start it when darius begins his pull, and you just dash through it ignoring him completely.
I beat a Darius as Swain, but I was clearly better than him on a non-mechanical standpoint (I warded and he didn't, granted two kills on WW ganks). It showed at least a thing tho: I already knew that Swain's E's animation is pretty damn long, well it's enough for him to pull me. He lost the trades as I ran away immediatly while him staying in place meant a full QEW in his face, but I didn't check his runes so maybe he should have won them (he started dshield and bought boots+4 pots at his first back).
I could only Q him and walk away unharmed, but that didn't do a lot of damage. Also, he tried to play aggressively from the start so I just let him push then froze the lane near my tower (GP never lane ganked to abuse that and after our first backs I made sure to freeze far enough to check my bush's entrance). So against a good Darius I don't know if he'd straight up beat me, but Swain shouldn't be able to E him unhindered.
On June 08 2012 05:15 iCanada wrote: So you're telling me you wouldn't start Dshield against swain?
Why not... I dont get it.
not sure if srs...
I'll assume you are... because you need boots to dodge his snare/get out of laser bird ASAP/get close enough to E him. And after that, you want dblades to kill him, not dshields.
laned vs darius as irelia in ranked, could trade with him fairly well but if you ever commit, the true damage ult kills you before you can get him down to 1/4 hp. Had to rush a giant's belt but overall the lane wasn't that bad.
On June 08 2012 05:15 iCanada wrote: So you're telling me you wouldn't start Dshield against swain?
Why not... I dont get it.
not sure if srs...
I'll assume you are... because you need boots to dodge his snare/get out of laser bird ASAP/get close enough to E him. And after that, you want dblades to kill him, not dshields.
I'm finding more and more that Darius craps all over his lane, but just isn't good by mid and lategame compared to any other bruiser in the game. Is there something wrong with my playstyle? I've been opening standard boots/whatever 2 dblades into phage, BT, tanky items, and it just seems that he doesn't have the scaling to work out. As is, have not lost my lane except to Nid who picked up 3 kills when a countergank happened at level 6 (and I was probably playing the lane wrong). I just find Darius easy to kite/stay away from as the AP or AD, and you aren't exactly the most amazing at dunking bruisers quickly, but that's what it seems I end up doing because I can't reach the AP the way you can with say J4, Renekton, Pantheon, or similar.
My Darius match history: 9-0-0 win (laned against intelligent yorick who opened boots 3 mana pots, got FB level 1, got another kill when he came back into lane, he was level 2 when I was 5, dunked him like 5 times that game) 16-7-5 win (got so outrageously fed, IIRC I was against Q first Jarvan, who tried to trade with me at level 1, FB level 1, they rotated through 3 champs toplane, none of which could lane me, Corki fared best but still got dunked twice before they left me top lane) 14-8-10 loss dunked everyone earlygame (started like 10-2) but couldn't do well later. 15-4-4 loss game was awkward since I was the only lane that won, but I won hard, so ended up being the only one who could get kills. Did the getting kills part well though. 11-6-1 loss similar to above, I started like 7-1 in laning, couldn't get there in midgame fights.
Feels like Darius is reliant on having a solid AP to burst people down partway. Am I missing something or does his mid and lategame suck beyond belief?
Nidalee vs Darius really lame, auto from outside range all day, if you happen to get a pull off somehow she'll just turn into cougar and leap away and heal it all back up, etc.
On June 08 2012 09:15 Shikyo wrote: Nidalee vs Darius really lame, auto from outside range all day, if you happen to get a pull off somehow she'll just turn into cougar and leap away and heal it all back up, etc.
pull her and instadunk, gg nid, gg.
basically it kinda sucks until phage, then it's like, okish, then you get mallet and gg nid, gg.
On June 08 2012 09:15 Shikyo wrote: Nidalee vs Darius really lame, auto from outside range all day, if you happen to get a pull off somehow she'll just turn into cougar and leap away and heal it all back up, etc.
pull her and instadunk, gg nid, gg.
basically it kinda sucks until phage, then it's like, okish, then you get mallet and gg nid, gg.
But she doesn't get instadunked at least by me, that leap just lets her get away and by the next time I get E (Which is like 30s or whatever the cd is) she's full hp again o_O All I can get in is W, Q and that's not enough... I could ulti if I do it before Q I guess but she's never been that low
On June 08 2012 09:15 Shikyo wrote: Nidalee vs Darius really lame, auto from outside range all day, if you happen to get a pull off somehow she'll just turn into cougar and leap away and heal it all back up, etc.
pull her and instadunk, gg nid, gg.
basically it kinda sucks until phage, then it's like, okish, then you get mallet and gg nid, gg.
But she doesn't get instadunked at least by me, that leap just lets her get away and by the next time I get E (Which is like 30s or whatever the cd is) she's full hp again o_O All I can get in is W, Q and that's not enough... I could ulti if I do it before Q I guess but she's never been that low
if she times it right, she can leap through your pull anyway.
On June 08 2012 09:32 Mogwai wrote: ok, if she's playing on 0 lag with superhuman reactions, she can GG your grab, sure, otherwise it's just a prediction thing, which can be baited.
It's really easy to do actually. ALL of Darius's animations save his Q at certain angles are super broadcasted, you can react to all of them since his damage point is so bad, though his Q is fast enough you can only flash out to avoid taking damage, no dash/jump will work. Now if you have alot of lag, yeah you get screwed, but with 70-100 ping i've been able to do it 9/10 times with renekton, hell i've even flashed out of his W animation to avoid being slowed.
On June 08 2012 09:32 Mogwai wrote: ok, if she's playing on 0 lag with superhuman reactions, she can GG your grab, sure, otherwise it's just a prediction thing, which can be baited.
It's really easy to do actually. ALL of Darius's animations save his Q at certain angles are super broadcasted, you can react to all of them since his damage point is so bad, though his Q is fast enough you can only flash out to avoid taking damage, no dash/jump will work. Now if you have alot of lag, yeah you get screwed, but with 70-100 ping i've been able to do it 9/10 times with renekton, hell i've even flashed out of his W animation to avoid being slowed.
you're predicting, not reacting, if you wanna play I'll teach you about baiting dashes :p.
Yeah that nidalee i played vs was really bad and she managed to cougar-leap every single time right after just my W and I doubt I screwed up such an easy combo so many times <_> the Q barely hits at the edge and sometimes doesn't
On June 08 2012 09:55 Shikyo wrote: Yeah that nidalee i played vs was really bad and she managed to cougar-leap every single time right after just my W and I doubt I screwed up such an easy combo so many times <_> the Q barely hits at the edge and sometimes doesn't
what i'm talking about isn't leaping after the pull. It's using the way that forced movement works in the game, where the second applied forced movement always wins, it's the reason you can condemn a person who was just headbutted back and they only move slightly for the headbutt and all the way for the condemn. if you put your forced movement on top of the pull, you just move away instead of be pulled in at all. If you do it correctly you actually start to get pulled back a little, and then dash/leap/flash/ect out.
and mogwai, i press E with renekton when darius lifts his halbred thing over his head as he does every time he tries to pull. apparently thats predicting, i didn't know. i assumed since i was taking a cue from his .7 second long animation it would be called reacting.
Also i'm not saying the people i play vs are better than your opponent's. I am saying i am better vs Darius than your opponents. Because they don't know the matchups and how to abuse darius's huge flaws.
On June 08 2012 09:55 Shikyo wrote: Yeah that nidalee i played vs was really bad and she managed to cougar-leap every single time right after just my W and I doubt I screwed up such an easy combo so many times <_> the Q barely hits at the edge and sometimes doesn't
what i'm talking about isn't leaping after the pull. It's using the way that forced movement works in the game, where the second applied forced movement always wins, it's the reason you can condemn a person who was just headbutted back and they only move slightly for the headbutt and all the way for the condemn. if you put your forced movement on top of the pull, you just move away instead of be pulled in at all. If you do it correctly you actually start to get pulled back a little, and then dash/leap/flash/ect out.
and mogwai, i press E with renekton when darius lifts his halbred thing over his head as he does every time he tries to pull. apparently thats predicting, i didn't know. i assumed since i was taking a queue from his .7 second long animation it would be called reacting.
Also i'm not saying the people i play vs are better than your opponent's. I am saying i am better vs Darius than your opponents. Because they don't know the matchups and how to abuse darius's huge flaws.
On June 08 2012 09:55 Shikyo wrote: Yeah that nidalee i played vs was really bad and she managed to cougar-leap every single time right after just my W and I doubt I screwed up such an easy combo so many times <_> the Q barely hits at the edge and sometimes doesn't
what i'm talking about isn't leaping after the pull. It's using the way that forced movement works in the game, where the second applied forced movement always wins, it's the reason you can condemn a person who was just headbutted back and they only move slightly for the headbutt and all the way for the condemn. if you put your forced movement on top of the pull, you just move away instead of be pulled in at all. If you do it correctly you actually start to get pulled back a little, and then dash/leap/flash/ect out.
and mogwai, i press E with renekton when darius lifts his halbred thing over his head as he does every time he tries to pull. apparently thats predicting, i didn't know. i assumed since i was taking a queue from his .7 second long animation it would be called reacting.
Also i'm not saying the people i play vs are better than your opponent's. I am saying i am better vs Darius than your opponents. Because they don't know the matchups and how to abuse darius's huge flaws.
That's really useful information, I'll try to make some use of it
On June 08 2012 09:55 Shikyo wrote: Yeah that nidalee i played vs was really bad and she managed to cougar-leap every single time right after just my W and I doubt I screwed up such an easy combo so many times <_> the Q barely hits at the edge and sometimes doesn't
what i'm talking about isn't leaping after the pull. It's using the way that forced movement works in the game, where the second applied forced movement always wins, it's the reason you can condemn a person who was just headbutted back and they only move slightly for the headbutt and all the way for the condemn. if you put your forced movement on top of the pull, you just move away instead of be pulled in at all. If you do it correctly you actually start to get pulled back a little, and then dash/leap/flash/ect out.
and mogwai, i press E with renekton when darius lifts his halbred thing over his head as he does every time he tries to pull. apparently thats predicting, i didn't know. i assumed since i was taking a queue from his .7 second long animation it would be called reacting.
Also i'm not saying the people i play vs are better than your opponent's. I am saying i am better vs Darius than your opponents. Because they don't know the matchups and how to abuse darius's huge flaws.
Smash vs Xizor grudge match gogo
Yeah I dunno dude, seems really friggin' unlikely that you can react to an animation that quickly, but what do I know. 1V1 GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGGOGO
On June 08 2012 09:55 Shikyo wrote: Yeah that nidalee i played vs was really bad and she managed to cougar-leap every single time right after just my W and I doubt I screwed up such an easy combo so many times <_> the Q barely hits at the edge and sometimes doesn't
what i'm talking about isn't leaping after the pull. It's using the way that forced movement works in the game, where the second applied forced movement always wins, it's the reason you can condemn a person who was just headbutted back and they only move slightly for the headbutt and all the way for the condemn. if you put your forced movement on top of the pull, you just move away instead of be pulled in at all. If you do it correctly you actually start to get pulled back a little, and then dash/leap/flash/ect out.
and mogwai, i press E with renekton when darius lifts his halbred thing over his head as he does every time he tries to pull. apparently thats predicting, i didn't know. i assumed since i was taking a queue from his .7 second long animation it would be called reacting.
Also i'm not saying the people i play vs are better than your opponent's. I am saying i am better vs Darius than your opponents. Because they don't know the matchups and how to abuse darius's huge flaws.
Smash vs Xizor grudge match gogo
Yeah I dunno dude, seems really friggin' unlikely that you can react to an animation that quickly, but what do I know. 1V1 GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGGOGO
if it was any animations but a few in the game i'd agree, but darius has absolutely terrible animations. I respect smash, but his views on darius are super biased by his ability to play aggressive top lanes, and the fact that people are unfamiliar with darius.
On June 08 2012 12:59 chalice wrote: are you absolutely sure that your views aren't biased by the fact that the people you play against are much worse that mogwai?
well, no, because I'm not talking about how much i shit on darius's. i'm talking about how easy it is to prevent darius's damage, on reaction. I'm talking in regards to the player, not in regards to the opponent.
Smash is talking about beating everyone he plays, i'm giving techniques and advice on how to shut down a character, not a player.
zzzz after playing Darius and seeing Darius being played, I honestly don't think his animations are anywhere near as bad as Xizor seems to make it out to be. If anything, Darius' E animation is really fuckin good. It has less delay than Blitzcrank's grab. If you can dodge Darius grab you can dodge Blitz grab.
Regarding the Nid matchup...well any matchup tbh, if you don't start dunking on people asap then you're gonna have a bad time. So regarding Nid, you should be winning your lane asap and by the time she gets her 6 you should be ahead to the point where it doesnt matter if you can't land every single combo.
So my friend (1200 elo pro status) went up against AP Yi as Darius. Heals through everything (in other words, doesn't get low enough that true damage ulti will kill him) and farms easy as hell, incidental damage to Darius when he tries to farm from Alpha Strike.
(I don't think this actually works at a high level, but still I'M TRYING TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING)
On June 08 2012 16:11 WaveofShadow wrote: So my friend (1200 elo pro status) went up against AP Yi as Darius. Heals through everything (in other words, doesn't get low enough that true damage ulti will kill him) and farms easy as hell, incidental damage to Darius when he tries to farm from Alpha Strike.
(I don't think this actually works at a high level, but still I'M TRYING TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING)
I would imagine that lane going something like Yi alphas on a creep. Darius accepts getting hit by alpha and runs towards said creep Yi re-appears and gets slowed->auto->Q Tries to meditate, promptly gets pulled out of it, tries to run, gets slowed/Q'd again At some point, Yi starts dying uncontrollably and rage quits.
On June 08 2012 16:11 WaveofShadow wrote: So my friend (1200 elo pro status) went up against AP Yi as Darius. Heals through everything (in other words, doesn't get low enough that true damage ulti will kill him) and farms easy as hell, incidental damage to Darius when he tries to farm from Alpha Strike.
(I don't think this actually works at a high level, but still I'M TRYING TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING)
On June 08 2012 16:11 WaveofShadow wrote: So my friend (1200 elo pro status) went up against AP Yi as Darius. Heals through everything (in other words, doesn't get low enough that true damage ulti will kill him) and farms easy as hell, incidental damage to Darius when he tries to farm from Alpha Strike.
(I don't think this actually works at a high level, but still I'M TRYING TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING)
Save pull for heal
Yeah I was too busy learning Naut jungle to think about ways my friend could've stopped him. Ugh, now I sound like a huge nub. I'm just going to leave this thread gracefully and accept that NOTHING CAN BE DONE
What about Cho'Gath? He seems to turn the lane into a farming one from my experience. Silence and knockup can just disrupt his combo, and he's obviously just tanky in general.
dunked. I beat on BouncingChest's cho gath in lane the 1 time I've played it and I consider him probably the best Cho atm. The lane ended up being semi-evenish because of fed Riven ganks, but I know that left to their own devices, Darius will dunk on him hard.
I've been playing AD nid against Darius with a lot success in solo que with arp reds, AD quints, and armor yellows and blues. You can start zoning with auto attacks at level 1 and heal back his Q harrass. He gets set way too far behind and the lane becomes unwinnable for him unless he gets a lot of ganks.
It seems to work pretty well, but it could be because i'm only in the mid1600's
Cait's probably fine though. Her range is 650 AA vs Darius' 550 spell range and she has an instant blink. I've said this before, but caitlyn is kinda like the safest pick in the game. She counters so many champions in a 1v1 lane: standing toe to toe with urgot, beating all the AD's, and all the melees that I can think of, as well as a few of the APs, and going even against most champs, falling off midgame, to become a force late game.
On June 09 2012 08:05 obesechicken13 wrote: Cait's probably fine though. Her range is 650 AA vs Darius' 550 spell range and she has an instant blink. I've said this before, but caitlyn is kinda like the safest pick in the game. She counters so many champions in a 1v1 lane: standing toe to toe with urgot, beating all the AD's, and all the melees that I can think of, as well as a few of the APs, and going even against most champs, falling off midgame, to become a force late game.
Yeah i'm sure cait is fine in lane, but outside of the lane you have to deal with the fact that you're playing caitlyn..
On June 09 2012 08:05 obesechicken13 wrote: Cait's probably fine though. Her range is 650 AA vs Darius' 550 spell range and she has an instant blink. I've said this before, but caitlyn is kinda like the safest pick in the game. She counters so many champions in a 1v1 lane: standing toe to toe with urgot, beating all the AD's, and all the melees that I can think of, as well as a few of the APs, and going even against most champs, falling off midgame, to become a force late game.
Yeah i'm sure cait is fine in lane, but outside of the lane you have to deal with the fact that you're playing caitlyn..
I just tried Darius vs some bots. I dunno. I don't see that wtf insane damage you guys are. He's fun to play though. Also I was getting kills all game long. It's not that Darius doesn't always contribute to damaging a champion. He does. His ult scales on hemorage stacks and he needs 5 to max out the ult. It's just that unless the enemy champ gets one shotted, Darius is always going to get the kill. (3 members of my bad team had 2 kills while I had 25) That's BS and I'm angry the Riot team decided to keep it.
Things I learned: Q>W I guess I just couldn't land the second W even after reducing it's cooldown with hemorrhage stacks because I would get CC's first. It might work if I had rushed mallet or used my bilgewater better. His sustain isn't great. At least not with just a bilgewater cutlass. If he misses his E he's screwed against ranged champs for 22 seconds.
Dunking everyone may not be good in the long run, but if your stuff allows you to put your dot faster then you can throw 700 true damage on them easily.
On June 09 2012 08:05 obesechicken13 wrote: Cait's probably fine though. Her range is 650 AA vs Darius' 550 spell range and she has an instant blink. I've said this before, but caitlyn is kinda like the safest pick in the game. She counters so many champions in a 1v1 lane: standing toe to toe with urgot, beating all the AD's, and all the melees that I can think of, as well as a few of the APs, and going even against most champs, falling off midgame, to become a force late game.
I agree, though I wouldn't exactly call caitlyn's net-throw instant. Her problems top are mostly related to 300 movespeed and junglers showing up.
Her net throw is probably slow enough that if you tried using it when Darius is like a step away from being close enough to E you, he would get the E off before you move away via net. It's really obnoxious.
And once he's on you... you're just dead. God forbid the enemy team has a maokai jungle or something else that will ensure that darius can get on you.
I feel like Kennen or similar would have the best time against him. Harass from range but if he does grab you, you can stun & run to win the trade.
Heh, I don't see anything beating Darius in lane, maybe Cait and Kennen can farm safely against him, but I tried playing Nidalee and got murdered (auto range too low ). Not sure what to do, permaban him for the next few weeks?
I'm a Kayle player, so I wanted to try her, but Hook outranges her E, so Kayle would have to bait hook, run out, and then Q/E Trade, which would probably lead to her taking more damage than Darius.
Yeah... I'm a nidalee player too and I haven't a clue what to do against him. Even cloth5 doesn't feel very good against him, the best I've come up with is boots, harass him hard at 1 if he opens Q (they all do... E first would be scary) and try to keep him low enough to be afraid of going all-in against me.
I feel like it's only working because I'm decent with nidalee and I'm playing against free-week dariuses (Darii?) who don't know what they're doing. Also as long as they keep building damage items and have no big tanky items post-6, I can harass them low enough from range that when they grab me, i can catform+ignite them and usually win.
I don't like teemo, so I was hoping to find another option for vs. Darius. Until then, I'll keep banning him. Nobody has complained about my request to ban him so far anyway.
On June 12 2012 03:26 HughMyron wrote: Heh, I don't see anything beating Darius in lane, maybe Cait and Kennen can farm safely against him, but I tried playing Nidalee and got murdered (auto range too low ). Not sure what to do, permaban him for the next few weeks?
he might not have much more in the way of nerfs coming. learn teemo and kayle and call for ganks when you need them. drag the game past 30 minutes and go nuts.
On June 12 2012 03:26 HughMyron wrote: Heh, I don't see anything beating Darius in lane, maybe Cait and Kennen can farm safely against him, but I tried playing Nidalee and got murdered (auto range too low ). Not sure what to do, permaban him for the next few weeks?
he might not have much more in the way of nerfs coming. learn teemo and kayle and call for ganks when you need them. drag the game past 30 minutes and go nuts.
Sadly, I think you're right huehuehue.
Knowing Riot though, they'll probably change Bleed to Physical (The Irelia treatment)
On June 12 2012 03:26 HughMyron wrote: Heh, I don't see anything beating Darius in lane, maybe Cait and Kennen can farm safely against him, but I tried playing Nidalee and got murdered (auto range too low ). Not sure what to do, permaban him for the next few weeks?
he might not have much more in the way of nerfs coming. learn teemo and kayle and call for ganks when you need them. drag the game past 30 minutes and go nuts.
Sadly, I think you're right huehuehue.
Knowing Riot though, they'll probably change Bleed to Physical (The Irelia treatment)
right, the irelia treatment that still leaves her with more repeatable true damage than you can shake a stick at. yep, totally killed that character -_-. Irelia's still stupid strong and scales harder than any other bruiser in the game. If you give Darius that treatment, it's gg for him because he'll never be able to compete with 75 true damage/attack + 6 second base CD dash + 8 second CD stun/slow.
On June 12 2012 03:26 HughMyron wrote: Heh, I don't see anything beating Darius in lane, maybe Cait and Kennen can farm safely against him, but I tried playing Nidalee and got murdered (auto range too low ). Not sure what to do, permaban him for the next few weeks?
he might not have much more in the way of nerfs coming. learn teemo and kayle and call for ganks when you need them. drag the game past 30 minutes and go nuts.
Sadly, I think you're right huehuehue.
Knowing Riot though, they'll probably change Bleed to Physical (The Irelia treatment)
right, the irelia treatment that still leaves her with more repeatable true damage than you can shake a stick at. yep, totally killed that character -_-. Irelia's still stupid strong and scales harder than any other bruiser in the game. If you give Darius that treatment, it's gg for him because he'll never be able to compete with 75 true damage/attack + 6 second base CD dash + 8 second CD stun/slow.
What does Kayle have on Darius that Nidalee doesn't? (Honest question)
On June 09 2012 08:05 obesechicken13 wrote: Cait's probably fine though. Her range is 650 AA vs Darius' 550 spell range and she has an instant blink. I've said this before, but caitlyn is kinda like the safest pick in the game. She counters so many champions in a 1v1 lane: standing toe to toe with urgot, beating all the AD's, and all the melees that I can think of, as well as a few of the APs, and going even against most champs, falling off midgame, to become a force late game.
I agree, though I wouldn't exactly call caitlyn's net-throw instant. Her problems top are mostly related to 300 movespeed and junglers showing up.
Her net throw is probably slow enough that if you tried using it when Darius is like a step away from being close enough to E you, he would get the E off before you move away via net. It's really obnoxious.
And once he's on you... you're just dead. God forbid the enemy team has a maokai jungle or something else that will ensure that darius can get on you.
I feel like Kennen or similar would have the best time against him. Harass from range but if he does grab you, you can stun & run to win the trade.
Yes, cait's net does have a chargeup time, but so does Darius' E and cait's net always goes off. So if cait gets grabbed and nets during the grab, she'll get rocketed out as if the grab never happened. (I just learned this recently) and if she just keeps her distance, and wards, I don't see junglers (without oracles/pink) being a problem either.
Hey Smash, what are you building anyway? I really feel like I need to build tank, because I get focus-fired and end up soaking up most of the damage, so I've been doing Wriggles/Merc's (for lane sustain) into Phage/Hex/Glacial -> FMallet/Maw/FH. Should I be getting a HoG early and doing Randuin's at some point, and maybe an Aegis somewhere? Or are you building more straight damage (though that seems not good in the long run to me)?
On June 09 2012 08:05 obesechicken13 wrote: Cait's probably fine though. Her range is 650 AA vs Darius' 550 spell range and she has an instant blink. I've said this before, but caitlyn is kinda like the safest pick in the game. She counters so many champions in a 1v1 lane: standing toe to toe with urgot, beating all the AD's, and all the melees that I can think of, as well as a few of the APs, and going even against most champs, falling off midgame, to become a force late game.
I agree, though I wouldn't exactly call caitlyn's net-throw instant. Her problems top are mostly related to 300 movespeed and junglers showing up.
Her net throw is probably slow enough that if you tried using it when Darius is like a step away from being close enough to E you, he would get the E off before you move away via net. It's really obnoxious.
And once he's on you... you're just dead. God forbid the enemy team has a maokai jungle or something else that will ensure that darius can get on you.
I feel like Kennen or similar would have the best time against him. Harass from range but if he does grab you, you can stun & run to win the trade.
Yes, cait's net does have a chargeup time, but so does Darius' E and cait's net always goes off. So if cait gets grabbed and nets during the grab, she'll get rocketed out as if the grab never happened. (I just learned this recently) and if she just keeps her distance, and wards, I don't see junglers (without oracles/pink) being a problem either.
I am 100% certain that's not what happens when EVERY other displacement effect hits cait during her net movement. Seen / been hit by naut grabs, blitz grabs, headbutts, and more, and net does shit all. Even just a stun landing on cait will stop her net movement.
@smash - makes sense. Kinda frustrating though. Maybe I should just pick up kayle top - I guess her early game doesn't play THAT much differently from Nidalee pre-6.
On June 09 2012 08:05 obesechicken13 wrote: Cait's probably fine though. Her range is 650 AA vs Darius' 550 spell range and she has an instant blink. I've said this before, but caitlyn is kinda like the safest pick in the game. She counters so many champions in a 1v1 lane: standing toe to toe with urgot, beating all the AD's, and all the melees that I can think of, as well as a few of the APs, and going even against most champs, falling off midgame, to become a force late game.
I agree, though I wouldn't exactly call caitlyn's net-throw instant. Her problems top are mostly related to 300 movespeed and junglers showing up.
Her net throw is probably slow enough that if you tried using it when Darius is like a step away from being close enough to E you, he would get the E off before you move away via net. It's really obnoxious.
And once he's on you... you're just dead. God forbid the enemy team has a maokai jungle or something else that will ensure that darius can get on you.
I feel like Kennen or similar would have the best time against him. Harass from range but if he does grab you, you can stun & run to win the trade.
Yes, cait's net does have a chargeup time, but so does Darius' E and cait's net always goes off. So if cait gets grabbed and nets during the grab, she'll get rocketed out as if the grab never happened. (I just learned this recently) and if she just keeps her distance, and wards, I don't see junglers (without oracles/pink) being a problem either.
I am 100% certain that's not what happens when EVERY other displacement effect hits cait during her net movement. Seen / been hit by naut grabs, blitz grabs, headbutts, and more, and net does shit all. Even just a stun landing on cait will stop her net movement.
@smash - makes sense. Kinda frustrating though. Maybe I should just pick up kayle top - I guess her early game doesn't play THAT much differently from Nidalee pre-6.
It depends on if she's moving or not. If she's moving, she'll always move the full distance, however, if she's stationary at the beginning of her cast, the other displacement will take precedence.
On June 12 2012 11:51 Requizen wrote: Hey Smash, what are you building anyway? I really feel like I need to build tank, because I get focus-fired and end up soaking up most of the damage, so I've been doing Wriggles/Merc's (for lane sustain) into Phage/Hex/Glacial -> FMallet/Maw/FH. Should I be getting a HoG early and doing Randuin's at some point, and maybe an Aegis somewhere? Or are you building more straight damage (though that seems not good in the long run to me)?
On June 12 2012 11:51 Requizen wrote: Hey Smash, what are you building anyway? I really feel like I need to build tank, because I get focus-fired and end up soaking up most of the damage, so I've been doing Wriggles/Merc's (for lane sustain) into Phage/Hex/Glacial -> FMallet/Maw/FH. Should I be getting a HoG early and doing Randuin's at some point, and maybe an Aegis somewhere? Or are you building more straight damage (though that seems not good in the long run to me)?
it's all in the guide.
Ah, didn't know if you'd changed it up since the first inception, know you've been playing him almost non-stop when he's not banned lol.
On June 12 2012 11:51 Requizen wrote: Hey Smash, what are you building anyway? I really feel like I need to build tank, because I get focus-fired and end up soaking up most of the damage, so I've been doing Wriggles/Merc's (for lane sustain) into Phage/Hex/Glacial -> FMallet/Maw/FH. Should I be getting a HoG early and doing Randuin's at some point, and maybe an Aegis somewhere? Or are you building more straight damage (though that seems not good in the long run to me)?
it's all in the guide.
Ah, didn't know if you'd changed it up since the first inception, know you've been playing him almost non-stop when he's not banned lol.
yea, not really. Still typically looks like double dblade or wriggles -> HoG -> Phage -> BT (optional) -> defensive shit as necessary, Omen and GA being my current top 2 picks.
On June 12 2012 11:51 Requizen wrote: Hey Smash, what are you building anyway? I really feel like I need to build tank, because I get focus-fired and end up soaking up most of the damage, so I've been doing Wriggles/Merc's (for lane sustain) into Phage/Hex/Glacial -> FMallet/Maw/FH. Should I be getting a HoG early and doing Randuin's at some point, and maybe an Aegis somewhere? Or are you building more straight damage (though that seems not good in the long run to me)?
it's all in the guide.
Ah, didn't know if you'd changed it up since the first inception, know you've been playing him almost non-stop when he's not banned lol.
yea, not really. Still typically looks like double dblade or wriggles -> HoG -> Phage -> BT (optional) -> defensive shit as necessary, Omen and GA being my current top 2 picks.
I've honestly found the BT very optional as of late. It's great if you're dunking left and right in lane, but I'd often get defensive stuff earlier since I'm almost tanking teamfights (always focus the Darius, never not focus him), but then again I'm nowhere near your ELO
BT is actually typically when I'm not doing as well nowadays. If you're dunking hard, they start to focus you and you do better with defensive items. If you're getting shut down a bit, BT lets you randomly explode for crazy triples in midgame teamfights that pull you back into the game.
Just saw a Lee Sin get an asst against this guy from a jungle invade. Then I ganked his lane and got him a kill. And still he got completely derped on in laning. It was kinda sad to watch.
Then again, a lot of Lee matchups are based on player skill, but I'm not sure about this one.
On June 09 2012 08:05 obesechicken13 wrote: Cait's probably fine though. Her range is 650 AA vs Darius' 550 spell range and she has an instant blink. I've said this before, but caitlyn is kinda like the safest pick in the game. She counters so many champions in a 1v1 lane: standing toe to toe with urgot, beating all the AD's, and all the melees that I can think of, as well as a few of the APs, and going even against most champs, falling off midgame, to become a force late game.
I agree, though I wouldn't exactly call caitlyn's net-throw instant. Her problems top are mostly related to 300 movespeed and junglers showing up.
Her net throw is probably slow enough that if you tried using it when Darius is like a step away from being close enough to E you, he would get the E off before you move away via net. It's really obnoxious.
And once he's on you... you're just dead. God forbid the enemy team has a maokai jungle or something else that will ensure that darius can get on you.
I feel like Kennen or similar would have the best time against him. Harass from range but if he does grab you, you can stun & run to win the trade.
Yes, cait's net does have a chargeup time, but so does Darius' E and cait's net always goes off. So if cait gets grabbed and nets during the grab, she'll get rocketed out as if the grab never happened. (I just learned this recently) and if she just keeps her distance, and wards, I don't see junglers (without oracles/pink) being a problem either.
I am 100% certain that's not what happens when EVERY other displacement effect hits cait during her net movement. Seen / been hit by naut grabs, blitz grabs, headbutts, and more, and net does shit all. Even just a stun landing on cait will stop her net movement.
@smash - makes sense. Kinda frustrating though. Maybe I should just pick up kayle top - I guess her early game doesn't play THAT much differently from Nidalee pre-6.
Yeah that's because secondary movement inducers always take precedence. I'm not sure if stuns stop her from moving. But whenever Darius grabs cait, if the net goes off after, cait's net should take precedence. Anyways this is theorycraft. If you don't believe cait can monstrously beat darius in lane then keep playing what you want.
I feel like this guy needs some serious mana nerfs. Not being able to last hit because this guy can Q->auto->W->E->auto->Q whenever you get close for no mana is so dumb.
Darius has 312.5 mana at level 3 when he could first cast that combo. That nothing is 155 mana, which is half of his level 3 mana bar. At level 5, which is the last time he'd use that combo without having Ult, it'd be 155/387.5 or 40% of his mana. Level 6 and onward, you'd want to keep another 100 mana available for Darius's Ult.
On June 17 2012 08:15 Sven Stryker wrote: 40+30+45+40= nothing
Darius has 312.5 mana at level 3 when he could first cast that combo. That nothing is 155 mana, which is half of his level 3 mana bar. At level 5, which is the last time he'd use that combo without having Ult, it'd be 155/387.5 or 40% of his mana. Level 6 and onward, you'd want to keep another 100 mana available for Darius's Ult.
Compare it to jax. At level 3 a full combo: -> Q->W->E costs 165 mana, while he has 335 mana at level 3. One less ability than darius, less damage and the same relative mana cost. Heck even just E->Q which is what you sometimes need to get away from him costs 135 mana which is more than the 115 mana from a darius full combo.
My point is that the problem with darius is not his damage or the fact that you can't build full defense against him. The problem with him is that everyone will get into mana issues by just trying to trade with him, getting away from him or trying to sustain against him.
Energy champions like shen run into the same problem because you actually become energy starved while all he has to do is land 40 mana nukes from a safe distance whose cost doesn't scale at all. If they made him a manaless champion with just cooldowns like riven i doubt there would be much difference at all vs him in lane.
On June 17 2012 08:15 Sven Stryker wrote: 40+30+45+40= nothing
Darius has 312.5 mana at level 3 when he could first cast that combo. That nothing is 155 mana, which is half of his level 3 mana bar. At level 5, which is the last time he'd use that combo without having Ult, it'd be 155/387.5 or 40% of his mana. Level 6 and onward, you'd want to keep another 100 mana available for Darius's Ult.
Compare it to jax. At level 3 a full combo: -> Q->W->E costs 165 mana, while he has 300 mana at level 3. One less ability than darius, less damage and more relative and absolute mana than him. Heck even just E->Q which is what you sometimes need to get away from him costs 135 mana which is more than the 115 mana from a darius full combo.
My point is that the problem with darius is not his damage or the fact that you can't build full defense against him. The problem with him is that everyone will get into mana issues by just trying to trade with him, getting away from him or trying to sustain against him.
Energy champions like shen run into the same problem because you actually become energy starved while all he has to do is land 40 mana nukes whose cost doesn't scale at all. If they made him a manaless champion with just cooldowns like riven i doubt there would be much difference at all vs him in lane.
look at riven's mana cost effectiveness, then come back in here and tell that to me with a straight face.
I played against this guy for the first time with some friends and 2 randoms. Damn does his ult hit hard I understand his problems, vulnerability to ganks and lategame maneuverability, but if having to play around a 780 true damage nuke at 20 minutes isn't "antifun" what is lol Was waiting to zhonyas and went "wtf" when he pwned me so hard lolol
yea this champion is ultra retarded he can build 100% tank and still rapes me with ult in 1 hit ~50% hp no fucking idea how riot thought its a good idea, on top of that his laning phase is very strong he basically annihilates every melee bruiser 1v1 and loses only to specific counters like kennen or kayle, sometimes it doesnt matter anyway because he can roam and catch up on kills
He is a well established pubstomper imo Interesting design. Im not sure how wide the cone on his grab is, but if its any significant width i wonder how you can counterplay that (horizontal jukes without jumps would be impossible against a competent darius) if you can't fight them straight up
Wondering how Darius does against Singed at higher elo. Whenever I play singed against a darius it never seems that tough. If he ever pulls you in you just turn on your poison and fling him and it seems they always end up taking more damage then they dish out. I suppose early on Darius could be a pain in the ass for Singed but if your jungler comes early enough with your poison + fling + slow it usually always makes for a dead Darius. Worst case he blows his summoners and then ends up playing a lot more passive.
Might be just that the Dariusses at my level suck, but as an olaf i never had problems with darius... soften him up with my axe and when he used up his potions, go in and punch him in the face from close range. I usually get my Axe (Q) to level 3 to harass him more easily (after 1W & 1E) and then max E after and he never even gets close to standing a chance, so he'll end up being so far behind that he doesn't matter anymore in teamfights.
You usually can't go full melee against Darius but he has neither a sustain, gap-closer nor an escape, so if you can harass and cs from a distance he can't do anything about it and then you just go in and kill him when he's too weak. Repeat that a few times and he'll be a sad panda and go afk because his team is raging at him.
well i spactate quite alot recommended games and basically everytime darius is in a game sombody complains he is broken and those arent random 800 elo scrubs but 2.1k+++ players
On June 19 2012 23:27 kongoline wrote: well i spactate quite alot recommended games and basically everytime darius is in a game sombody complains he is broken and those arent random 800 elo scrubs but 2.1k+++ players
Dyrus didn't know Ahri's Q deals true damage, and he plays in one of the top teams worldwide. Just because someone is good at executing certain stuff and has a good overall understanding of the game and tons of experience doesn't mean he knows all it's intricacies. I mean, look at SilSol. It's insanely hard to judge champion balance correctly, especially when you're mad about getting rolled by a certain champ.
On June 19 2012 23:27 kongoline wrote: well i spactate quite alot recommended games and basically everytime darius is in a game sombody complains he is broken and those arent random 800 elo scrubs but 2.1k+++ players
Dyrus didn't know Ahri's Q deals true damage, and he plays in one of the top teams worldwide. Just because someone is good at executing certain stuff and has a good overall understanding of the game and tons of experience doesn't mean he knows all it's intricacies. I mean, look at SilSol. It's insanely hard to judge champion balance correctly, especially when you're mad about getting rolled by a certain champ.
not realy i dont see them complain at any other champion even half as much, this guy is toxic to play against for both teams, im 100% sure he will be tweaked in near future im just annoyed it takes so long
On June 19 2012 23:27 kongoline wrote: well i spactate quite alot recommended games and basically everytime darius is in a game sombody complains he is broken and those arent random 800 elo scrubs but 2.1k+++ players
Dyrus didn't know Ahri's Q deals true damage, and he plays in one of the top teams worldwide. Just because someone is good at executing certain stuff and has a good overall understanding of the game and tons of experience doesn't mean he knows all it's intricacies. I mean, look at SilSol. It's insanely hard to judge champion balance correctly, especially when you're mad about getting rolled by a certain champ.
not realy i dont see them complain at any other champion even half as much, this guy is toxic to play against for both teams, im 100% sure he will be tweaked in near future im just annoyed it takes so long
So because YOU don't hear other people complaining about different champions as much, he has to be broken? How full of yourself are you? You, much like every one else casually playing this game, know a fraction of what people are complaining about. You have a limited input. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean the complaints about other champions don't exist. I personally haven't seen a complaint about Darius in a good while because people start figuring out how he works and what works against him. The way I perceive this community, there's been much more hatred directed towards Alistar, Blitzcrank, Nautilus, Kennen. Now that might be true or not, but just because I see them as stronger champs doesn't mean they need to be fixed.
On June 19 2012 23:27 kongoline wrote: well i spactate quite alot recommended games and basically everytime darius is in a game sombody complains he is broken and those arent random 800 elo scrubs but 2.1k+++ players
Dyrus didn't know Ahri's Q deals true damage, and he plays in one of the top teams worldwide. Just because someone is good at executing certain stuff and has a good overall understanding of the game and tons of experience doesn't mean he knows all it's intricacies. I mean, look at SilSol. It's insanely hard to judge champion balance correctly, especially when you're mad about getting rolled by a certain champ.
not realy i dont see them complain at any other champion even half as much, this guy is toxic to play against for both teams, im 100% sure he will be tweaked in near future im just annoyed it takes so long
Do you think you could think through your problems with darius and lay them out? As it is now, all I'm hearing is anecdotal evidence basically saying that you don't like him and some unnamed pros don't either. That makes it kinda hard to respond to in any reasonable fashion.
I don't think there's a single champion in the game that's even close to as toxic to play as Kog Maw and Karthus, I believe those two champions are the most problematic by a long long shot.
Darius does a lot of damage outside of his ult. Yes he is motivated to "KS," but he's not as reliant on chaining ults as Katarina is on voracity chaining, so I don't really see the problem.
IDK what I'm doing so wrong that I suck with Darius. Everytime I play him I lose lane, every time I play against him I completely crush the lane (lolol FP Dariuses in ranked). Honestly I get the feeling like a wasted 6.3k IP on a champ everyone but me thinks is OP.
Using MS quints, AD reds, armor yellows, and mr/lvl blues. Building mercs, dblade(s), phage, and hexdrinker, into whatever I think I'll need.
E: For the record I also couldn't play mordekaiser or garen if my life depended on it.
On June 20 2012 02:02 Offhand wrote: IDK what I'm doing so wrong that I suck with Darius. Everytime I play him I lose lane, every time I play against him I completely crush the lane (lolol FP Dariuses in ranked). Honestly I get the feeling like a wasted 6.3k IP on a champ everyone but me thinks is OP.
Using MS quints, AD reds, armor yellows, and mr/lvl blues. Building mercs, dblade(s), phage, and hexdrinker, into whatever I think I'll need.
E: For the record I also couldn't play mordekaiser or garen if my life depended on it.
There's a whole OP about how to spec and play the character and you're giving no specific problem. I dunno what sort of response you're looking for.
On June 20 2012 02:08 Offhand wrote: ^^ I lose every trade against literally every other champ. It doesn't make sense.
if you're using my spec and losing trades, you're doing it wrong, period, idk what to tell you. You're not saying anything about which champs, and how you're playing it, you're just giving vague problems that I have no answer for because your general experiences directly contradict mine.
A lot of his dps in lane comes from his passive bleeding out your health and making him one of if not the worst person to trade with. lategame he falls off almost completely if your building ad. This "Press R for victory" is completely blown out of proportion and doesn't make sense at all if you've ever played him. Hes horrid at late game for a few reasons.
He has no mobility and no real cc other then a 20% slow off of his w that doesn't get used at the beginning of a teamfight in order to have any relevance on it at all. that means he has a aoe cone that doesn't do any damage other then procing his passive and a q that is good for aoe damage. if he builds attack damage then hes going to get bursted down from the onset of the teamfight making his r an impotent spell that would be an alright normal spell on anyone else. if he doesn't build a lot of ad then it doesn't scale to any real degree and won't win games for anything.
He has a fantastic design. Imagine other champs like yorick, akali, and cait. They're designed to win lanes and do a ton of damage in the early game to gain an advantage to be relevant in the lategame. Any major disruption to the early game that cause's them to not excel at the early game (for darius that is being ganked or not being able to trade against his lane enemy) then there is little for them to do anymore other then be bait and die.
Quite simply, Darius wins lanes but he does not win games.
On June 20 2012 02:22 Sermokala wrote: A lot of his dps in lane comes from his passive bleeding out your health and making him one of if not the worst person to trade with. lategame he falls off almost completely if your building ad. This "Press R for victory" is completely blown out of proportion and doesn't make sense at all if you've ever played him. Hes horrid at late game for a few reasons.
He has no mobility and no real cc other then a 20% slow off of his w that doesn't get used at the beginning of a teamfight in order to have any relevance on it at all. that means he has a aoe cone that doesn't do any damage other then procing his passive and a q that is good for aoe damage. if he builds attack damage then hes going to get bursted down from the onset of the teamfight making his r an impotent spell that would be an alright normal spell on anyone else. if he doesn't build a lot of ad then it doesn't scale to any real degree and won't win games for anything.
He has a fantastic design. Imagine other champs like yorick, akali, and cait. They're designed to win lanes and do a ton of damage in the early game to gain an advantage to be relevant in the lategame. Any major disruption to the early game that cause's them to not excel at the early game (for darius that is being ganked or not being able to trade against his lane enemy) then there is little for them to do anymore other then be bait and die.
Quite simply, Darius wins lanes but he does not win games.
His E doesn't proc his passive and his W is 40% at max level.
There certainly is something wrong about Darius being able to go Frozen Mallet/tank and having a guaranteed kill on anything that gets within 500 range of him. However he isn't that great in teamfights unless fed and his dmg is kind of mediocre if he cannot stay in fights for a really long time. Still he definitely needs some adjusting in my opinion, I think he'd be totally fine if the ult didn't reset cooldown at all. Another thing I can think of would be base stat reduction. In return maybe something like, I don't know, making the Q close hit more powerful?
On June 20 2012 02:39 Shikyo wrote: There certainly is something wrong about Darius being able to go Frozen Mallet/tank and having a guaranteed kill on anything that gets within 500 range of him. However he isn't that great in teamfights unless fed and his dmg is kind of mediocre if he cannot stay in fights for a really long time. Still he definitely needs some adjusting in my opinion, I think he'd be totally fine if the ult didn't reset cooldown at all. Another thing I can think of would be base stat reduction. In return maybe something like, I don't know, making the Q close hit more powerful?
if you're going to butcher his damage output, he needs range and/or mobility in return. it's the only way to keep him playable.
I useualy leave skilling w off till a while after so I mostly ment that he has a 20% slow in a lane. I guess if your laneing against someone who likes aa's then maxing w is good.
I really had no idea that his e didn't proc the passive. Its what I timed starting w'ing people around.
Maybe having his ult once it gets a kill give him a nice temporary ad bonus or a small perm ad bonus?
On June 20 2012 02:47 Sermokala wrote: I useualy leave skilling w off till a while after so I mostly ment that he has a 20% slow in a lane. I guess if your laneing against someone who likes aa's then maxing w is good.
I really had no idea that his e didn't proc the passive. Its what I timed starting w'ing people around.
Maybe having his ult once it gets a kill give him a nice temporary ad bonus or a small perm ad bonus?
I think he's got a bad design because unless the enemy gets bursted, Darius will always get the kill, which is just unfun for Darius' team. I think this is why I don't like it when I see the champion on my team. I haven't seen him be overpowered though.
it takes a bit of timing to get the ult down in the perfect window of when it will kill him and before he dies. it isn't an instant ult I think it takes a second and a half of him jumping up in the air and diveing down before it kicks in.
On June 20 2012 08:28 Sermokala wrote: it takes a bit of timing to get the ult down in the perfect window of when it will kill him and before he dies. it isn't an instant ult I think it takes a second and a half of him jumping up in the air and diveing down before it kicks in.
Yeah I know, but it can be timed as long as the enemy's life is going down at a constant rate and not being veigared.
So I was playing Darius completely tooling on a Riven and everyone was really surprised as they thought Riven countered Darius and would win trades because she has a shield, a popup and a stun. I was very confused by this and am wondering if perhaps I face bad Rivens because this is not the first time I have tooled on one.
I don't think I've lost my lane as Darius yet. The guy is completely insane and the amount of early game damage he can do is crazy. Plus when you get level 6 you can really burst somebody down fast. Usually I always win my lane which means if the other top lane guy gets close to last hitting (unless he's by his tower) he easily gets taken down to half life.
I got Boots+3 > dorans > dorans > phage always no matter what. Then it depends if they are AP heavy or AD heavy which then I either go Hexdrinker > bloodthirster after phage or just go straight into bloodthister.
He does fall off a little bit end game but if you're able to get the killing blow with your ult every kill that's an easy 500+damage on each enemy. It's also funny to laugh at those people who stack armor only to have your passive + ult ignore all that.
Darius might be too strong of a laner but if they nerf his laning he's going to need a buff for his team fight ability.
On June 20 2012 10:26 Bladeorade wrote: So I was playing Darius completely tooling on a Riven and everyone was really surprised as they thought Riven countered Darius and would win trades because she has a shield, a popup and a stun. I was very confused by this and am wondering if perhaps I face bad Rivens because this is not the first time I have tooled on one.
Was she maxing shield? If she was then I'd imagine she'd be able to do okay, but otherwise Darius out-damages her easily. Darius passive>Riven passive.
On June 20 2012 08:20 obesechicken13 wrote: I think he's got a bad design because unless the enemy gets bursted, Darius will always get the kill, which is just unfun for Darius' team. I think this is why I don't like it when I see the champion on my team. I haven't seen him be overpowered though.
There's lots of carries who can get an ability in during Darius' ult hangtime to snipe the kill. The only issue is that means you're purposely gimping your Darius in teamfights as a result.
Refresh on kill abilities are dumb (dumb is a much better term than "anti-fun"). The nerf to R maximized the amount of dumb playing with Darius brings to your own team. Kat's works much better, for example.
if someone snipes your kill while you're midair for your dunk, the CD gets refreshed. There's still a grace period on the ult, it's just closer to 0.1 seconds than 0.5 seconds now.
So I don't know if malphite had just fed him too much (2-0 and complaints) or I was jungling had less gold, and hadn't built for him, or it was my misclick moving too close to the brush when his pull was down, but I don't think kayle is an easy counter to Darius. I can tank one iteration of his combo at level 6 with my ult, but before that and after the ult goes on its 60 s cooldown, I feel disadvantaged. Still haven't gone against one in lane with all the bans, demands for top, people picking top after I pick it and call it, and dodges.
Imo W/L>KDR>KPR ^. I have good KDR with trist and garen but bad w/l I have good w/l and kdr with jax.
My friend believes that Teemo is not at all the counter to Darius, stating that Teemo has to play perfectly to not die instantly, and that he's too squishy to really lane. This is obviously incorrect, but since I am bad at putting words together well, can one of you guys state why it is that Teemo counters Darius? Because they are really bugging me XD
Played Udyr vs Darius with alot of success top lane, a tiger proc can trade just as hard as his q and bleed damage, but while he's only relying on potions you've got turtle + potions. And once you get wriggles you can pretty much shrug off most of his damage.
Dunno how you guys beat him as Teemo... I've tried, and it seems like at best I can kill him and then die to the bleed after effect. Do you have some sort of of foresight, because I feel like dodging pulls is really dicey given Teemo's range. I may be extremely unlucky though, it seems like the Darius always gets away with 10 hp or something dumb when I have the chance to kill him without dying, which seemes to happen 4-5 times a game. -_-
I will say if I get to phage I feel like I can punish him for a while, but getting there is tricky.
On July 07 2012 06:41 zer0das wrote: Dunno how you guys beat him as Teemo... I've tried, and it seems like at best I can kill him and then die to the bleed after effect. Do you have some sort of of foresight, because I feel like dodging pulls is really dicey given Teemo's range. I may be extremely unlucky though, it seems like the Darius always gets away with 10 hp or something dumb when I have the chance to kill him without dying, which seemes to happen 4-5 times a game. -_-
I will say if I get to phage I feel like I can punish him for a while, but getting there is tricky.
I don't play Teemo much, but what you do is you pop your blind as soon as he hooks, and because he won't be able to slow you with his W you can just run away (with move quick). Obviously you want to auto-attack harass him all day in lane.
On July 07 2012 06:41 zer0das wrote: Dunno how you guys beat him as Teemo... I've tried, and it seems like at best I can kill him and then die to the bleed after effect. Do you have some sort of of foresight, because I feel like dodging pulls is really dicey given Teemo's range. I may be extremely unlucky though, it seems like the Darius always gets away with 10 hp or something dumb when I have the chance to kill him without dying, which seemes to happen 4-5 times a game. -_-
I will say if I get to phage I feel like I can punish him for a while, but getting there is tricky.
I don't play Teemo much, but what you do is you pop your blind as soon as he hooks, and because he won't be able to slow you with his W you can just run away (with move quick). Obviously you want to auto-attack harass him all day in lane.
I don't think Irelia does that well against him (on stream Darius snowballs well against her, so I'd say it's at best an even matchup) and I think on hit effects still hit through blind. Blinds stop physical damage from autoattacks or onhits. It blocks no magic damage and no fully spell damage, and I don't think it stops any effects.
^^ You eat the slow, but you win the trade (Teemo autos vs missing Darius autos), after 2-3 attacks the blind falls off and you promptly GTFO. It's not possible to avoid all the damage but you should definitely come out ahead.
My god, I hate Darius so much. He can build mostly tank items and still dish out ridiculous amount of damage.
No escape mechanism? He doesn't NEED one, he's the predator, even when its 1v5 No good CC? Doesn't matter, he kills you before you even get a chance to really escape Overrated laning phase? Well even if he gets shut down in lane, once he picks up a few kills from teamfights, he's gonna massacre your team.
The recent "nerf" for Darius was not even a nerf. He's still batshit insane. He's the next champ I'm gonna buy, saving my IP.
On July 24 2012 19:40 GhostOwl wrote: My god, I hate Darius so much. He can build mostly tank items and still dish out ridiculous amount of damage.
No escape mechanism? He doesn't NEED one, he's the predator, even when its 1v5 No good CC? Doesn't matter, he kills you before you even get a chance to really escape Overrated laning phase? Well even if he gets shut down in lane, once he picks up a few kills from teamfights, he's gonna massacre your team.
The recent "nerf" for Darius was not even a nerf. He's still batshit insane. He's the next champ I'm gonna buy, saving my IP.
darius's damage is nothing special without damage items.
On July 24 2012 19:40 GhostOwl wrote: My god, I hate Darius so much. He can build mostly tank items and still dish out ridiculous amount of damage.
No escape mechanism? He doesn't NEED one, he's the predator, even when its 1v5 No good CC? Doesn't matter, he kills you before you even get a chance to really escape Overrated laning phase? Well even if he gets shut down in lane, once he picks up a few kills from teamfights, he's gonna massacre your team.
The recent "nerf" for Darius was not even a nerf. He's still batshit insane. He's the next champ I'm gonna buy, saving my IP.
darius's damage is nothing special without damage items.
I think he meant that Darius' no-damage-item damage is higher than other champions, i.e. his base damage output is on the high end of the scale. Which is true, for the most part.
On June 20 2012 10:26 Bladeorade wrote: So I was playing Darius completely tooling on a Riven and everyone was really surprised as they thought Riven countered Darius and would win trades because she has a shield, a popup and a stun. I was very confused by this and am wondering if perhaps I face bad Rivens because this is not the first time I have tooled on one.
Trading as Riven against Darius doesn't work at all. The only time you can even manage to get slightly ahead is when his Q is on cool down, and even then, between his W and his rake, he still gets to Q you before you slip away, and by then, the bleeds have done their damage. Mid game to late game, Riven is much better as long as you can get a decent feed. I always encourage my jungles to hit Darius as much as possible early game, and save stuns when Darius is at low health so we can finish him before his ult. Early game is extremely difficult against Darius though. I've only ever come out even against him as Riven, never on top.
On July 24 2012 19:40 GhostOwl wrote: My god, I hate Darius so much. He can build mostly tank items and still dish out ridiculous amount of damage.
No escape mechanism? He doesn't NEED one, he's the predator, even when its 1v5 No good CC? Doesn't matter, he kills you before you even get a chance to really escape Overrated laning phase? Well even if he gets shut down in lane, once he picks up a few kills from teamfights, he's gonna massacre your team.
The recent "nerf" for Darius was not even a nerf. He's still batshit insane. He's the next champ I'm gonna buy, saving my IP.
darius's damage is nothing special without damage items.
I think he meant that Darius' no-damage-item damage is higher than other champions, i.e. his base damage output is on the high end of the scale. Which is true, for the most part.
did you read his post? it's an incoherent tirade about darius being OP as shit, which at this point is a pretty laughable stance.
On July 25 2012 00:31 JokerSan wrote: He still provides no utility in team fights and can only crush in team fights you were probably going to win anyways.
I wouldn't say "no" utility. Pull and slow are good sticking/peeling tools, and the threat of his ult is one of the strongest tools to make someone run away in fear. I know when I'm in a teamfight against Darius, I'll get scared at half health as long as I know his ult is up, even if I'm playing a bruiser.
On July 24 2012 19:40 GhostOwl wrote: My god, I hate Darius so much. He can build mostly tank items and still dish out ridiculous amount of damage.
No escape mechanism? He doesn't NEED one, he's the predator, even when its 1v5 No good CC? Doesn't matter, he kills you before you even get a chance to really escape Overrated laning phase? Well even if he gets shut down in lane, once he picks up a few kills from teamfights, he's gonna massacre your team.
The recent "nerf" for Darius was not even a nerf. He's still batshit insane. He's the next champ I'm gonna buy, saving my IP.
darius's damage is nothing special without damage items.
I think he meant that Darius' no-damage-item damage is higher than other champions, i.e. his base damage output is on the high end of the scale. Which is true, for the most part.
did you read his post? it's an incoherent tirade about darius being OP as shit, which at this point is a pretty laughable stance.
I was more responding to the first line. While he's not doing AD levels of damage with pure tank items, he's still more damaging than most full tank-item champions.
I would never agree that he's OP, though. He's ban material against certain tops, that's for sure, but there are plenty of top/jungle combos that can camp him and make him useless. There are some that are just double kill material, sure, but most of the time I feel safe going up and ganking him, knowing that he can't run.
I kind of first hated him when he first came out and I tried him, but now I like him a lot more. I suppose it was because I was trying to build and play him like Riven, straight AD and trying to dance around. Instead, I just embraced the dunk that was within myself. And it feels good.
Mainly play him out of the jungle. I thought it would be painful and bad, but a core of Merc/Wriggle/Phage/Aegis is actually pretty easy to get and very effective on him. I've been skipping HoG since the nerf, but may consider it in games where my team is pushing too hard for me to be effective in ganks and I just want to farm and pressure.
I've also been considering running a page of AD red/Armor yellow/MR blue/MS quints to help his roam and ganks, since mobility is his big lacking point. Effective, or should I just do AD/Armor/MR quints depending on the matchup?
On July 24 2012 19:40 GhostOwl wrote: My god, I hate Darius so much. He can build mostly tank items and still dish out ridiculous amount of damage.
No escape mechanism? He doesn't NEED one, he's the predator, even when its 1v5 No good CC? Doesn't matter, he kills you before you even get a chance to really escape Overrated laning phase? Well even if he gets shut down in lane, once he picks up a few kills from teamfights, he's gonna massacre your team.
The recent "nerf" for Darius was not even a nerf. He's still batshit insane. He's the next champ I'm gonna buy, saving my IP.
darius's damage is nothing special without damage items.
I think he meant that Darius' no-damage-item damage is higher than other champions, i.e. his base damage output is on the high end of the scale. Which is true, for the most part.
did you read his post? it's an incoherent tirade about darius being OP as shit, which at this point is a pretty laughable stance.
I was more responding to the first line. While he's not doing AD levels of damage with pure tank items, he's still more damaging than most full tank-item champions.
I would never agree that he's OP, though. He's ban material against certain tops, that's for sure, but there are plenty of top/jungle combos that can camp him and make him useless. There are some that are just double kill material, sure, but most of the time I feel safe going up and ganking him, knowing that he can't run.
Olaf can build Frozen Heart/Shurelya/Randuin's and reach 40 CDR, at which point he has 360 true damage at a very low CD. His W gives him free AD, spellvamp and lifesteal and his Q is pretty good too, although hard to really generalize due to the pick-up/line-aoe/slow/skillshot/etc. mechanics. This is a lot more damage than Darius can dish out. Once you give Darius some offensive items, however, he starts dealing more damage (mostly due to his passive).
In fact, there are many champions that deal a lot of damage without (m)any offensive items. Cho'Gath does a fair amount, so does Galio, Malphite and even Amumu.
im going boots, hog, frozen mallet, randuins, force of nature, bloodthirster, GA. GA before bt sometimes. i find the other team likes to target darius lol. with these items i get extremely tanky. i dont really feel the need to build a damage item early, although ive never tried it. maybe i should. just tanking everything and ulting people when appropriate seems to be working real well.
darius is a blast. might try to main him for awhile, he does get banned occasionally tho. now i see why mogwai loves the dunk so much, it never gets old.
On October 09 2012 11:47 DarkwindHK wrote: Is there any melee champion that can win Darius in lane phase? Or you must get jungler's help to abuse the fact that he has no escape skills?
Is there any items you should build against Darius? I feel that armour is not helping much, as the bleeding + ult still kill you.
If one can only only choose Jayce or other ranged top to counter him, it will limit the team composition too much.
Nunu pretty good, Smash's build, walk on darius, see him cry all day ... or rage quit >_>
On October 09 2012 11:47 DarkwindHK wrote: Is there any melee champion that can win Darius in lane phase? Or you must get jungler's help to abuse the fact that he has no escape skills?
Is there any items you should build against Darius? I feel that armour is not helping much, as the bleeding + ult still kill you.
If one can only only choose Jayce or other ranged top to counter him, it will limit the team composition too much.
Nunu pretty good, Smash's build, walk on darius, see him cry all day ... or rage quit >_>
9-21-0, split pen marks, armor yellows, MR blues, AP quints. boots +2 hp pots + 1 mana pot, steal a bit from their jungle (if blue side and their jungler starts blue) or take your golems (if purple side and your jungler starts blue), build either 2 drings or philo+kage, then core of chalice+glacial shroud+hextech revolver, into grail/FH/wota. R>E>Q>W, spam iceballs, trade when consume's up. Against Darius you E him and nom a creep whenever he pulls you, E him the rest of the time and just zone him from creeps via harass+sustain.
On October 09 2012 11:23 Vaporized wrote: what's everyones regular build on darius?
im going boots, hog, frozen mallet, randuins, force of nature, bloodthirster, GA. GA before bt sometimes. i find the other team likes to target darius lol. with these items i get extremely tanky. i dont really feel the need to build a damage item early, although ive never tried it. maybe i should. just tanking everything and ulting people when appropriate seems to be working real well.
darius is a blast. might try to main him for awhile, he does get banned occasionally tho. now i see why mogwai loves the dunk so much, it never gets old.
I build boots3 -> dorans x 1(or 2) -> t2 boots -> phage -> aegis -> BT/mallet -> mallet/BT -> maw -> GA
I find that phage + aegis, then a mallet later is great for mid-game defense, plus aegis helps a ton in teamfights. I'd rather get maw instead of force of nature for MR, since darius scales so well with bonus AD. If I'm the team's tank I get mallet first. If I have another tank on the team, I get BT first.
HoG is bad for lane, unless you start snowballing early and you know for sure you're going to get randuin's later. I only get randuin's if I'm against an auto-attacker top lane and even then I get warden's mail first since it helps far more in lane than HoG.
On most lanes I start boots + 3 or 4 pots On hard lanes or against strong level 2 jungler, I start cloth armor + 3 pots + 1 ward Junglers know that darius is super weak against ganks and is susceptible to being camped. I'm tired of dying to level 2 ganks so I get a ward first quite often now.
After that I rush hexdrinker against AP champ or Phage against tanky/AD champs.
After that I get boots 2. After that the order gets pretty fuzzy, but I usually end up with something like Maw, Frozen, Negatron Cloak, and Randuins.
I skip dblades on Darius since I feel like getting an early phage or hexdrinker is super op, but they scale super poorly as the game goes on.
On October 10 2012 02:56 JokerSan wrote: On most lanes I start boots + 3 or 4 pots On hard lanes or against strong level 2 jungler, I start cloth armor + 3 pots + 1 ward Junglers know that darius is super weak against ganks and is susceptible to being camped. I'm tired of dying to level 2 ganks so I get a ward first quite often now.
After that I rush hexdrinker against AP champ or Phage against tanky/AD champs.
After that I get boots 2. After that the order gets pretty fuzzy, but I usually end up with something like Maw, Frozen, Negatron Cloak, and Randuins.
I skip dblades on Darius since I feel like getting an early phage or hexdrinker is super op, but they scale super poorly as the game goes on.
I'm not sure why hexdrinker or phage scale poorly. But everything else sounds right.
Also not sure if Darius is OP but he should always have a good kda at the cost of his team's kda.
I think his strength is that he can build fully tanky with just a frozen mallet for damage and still do his job. He's able to zone out squishies with the threat of a pull and as long as his ult is up and he has mana, he can generate threat on anyone who gets low enough and has enough stacks to kill. But if there's an enemy AD carry who can stay out of pull range, then that carry can just melt through Darius since Darius has no escapes. Another huge weakness of Darius' ult is that it weakens your own AD carry when you use it to get kills because there's a good chance it'd have gone to your carry otherwise. I try to use it only in big team fights or when I'm not sure if the kill is secure to give the kill to the AD carry because I still prefer a farmed ADC to a farmed tank.
I think people overestimate Darius' damage and he generates more threat than he should. His damage is great but people act like he's going to flash, Q, E, W, auto, auto, R before they can react. They focus him when his ult isn't going to hit for the full 600 damage on every target, and the enemy AD carry is hitting for 300-400 per shot at a rate of 2 shots per second. His passive only lasts 5 seconds and he needs 5 stacks to max out his ult damage. He also overkills too much.
What champions are good vs Darius? I have trouble dealing with him without jungleres help, and You cant always count on it in soloque. BTW:Am i bad player?
On December 24 2012 23:43 Silvanel wrote: What champions are good vs Darius? I have trouble dealing with him without jungleres help, and You cant always count on it in soloque. BTW:Am i bad player?
I have troubles vs Cho and Yorick. On the opposite spectrum I have trouble as Kayle and I suspect Teemo is the same. Yes.
Yorick and Cho can both sustain the damage until they need to get a kill. Neither really needs to fight him. They just need to cs from a distance.
On December 25 2012 07:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Cho actually beats Darius really hard
I thought it was the other way around at first but after playing both sides pretty extensively it's Cho's lane without heavy camping
Also Vlad is doable but you have to build pure damage with the goal of bursting him before he bursts you
you have to be playing some pretty bad darius then. I have hundreds of games on him and have never even come close to losing vs a cho. even if you die from a gank you will always beat him in a straight up fight unless you are underleveled.
On December 25 2012 07:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Cho actually beats Darius really hard
I thought it was the other way around at first but after playing both sides pretty extensively it's Cho's lane without heavy camping
Also Vlad is doable but you have to build pure damage with the goal of bursting him before he bursts you
you have to be playing some pretty bad darius then. I have hundreds of games on him and have never even come close to losing vs a cho. even if you die from a gank you will always beat him in a straight up fight unless you are underleveled.
funny post although you probably dont realise it. Yes, bad cho's lose extremely hard vs heroes that are very strong at lvl 1-5 (darius, riven, xin, ...). The whole point is that good cho's dont fall into that trap and know how to survive these levels without losing lane too hard (e.g. freezing lane correctly right before tower before they can push you into tower at lvl 2-3 and back real quick for a ward and a dorans, ...). You telling him he "must be playing some pretty bad chos" makes your whole post seem stupid as bad cho's are exactly the ones who lose lane vs darius while good chos go equal (and outscale) or win it. Darius cant do anything to cho with his skillset and any semblance of potential jungler presence in the first few levels and gets outfarmed later on, just think for a moment about their respective skillsets and cooldowns and then come up with a scenario where darius kills cho after level 5 and then think about the fact taht cho completely outscales him (especially taking into account the way both of them will have to build in this type of lane)
On December 25 2012 07:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Cho actually beats Darius really hard
I thought it was the other way around at first but after playing both sides pretty extensively it's Cho's lane without heavy camping
Also Vlad is doable but you have to build pure damage with the goal of bursting him before he bursts you
you have to be playing some pretty bad darius then. I have hundreds of games on him and have never even come close to losing vs a cho. even if you die from a gank you will always beat him in a straight up fight unless you are underleveled.
funny post although you probably dont realise it. Yes, bad cho's lose extremely hard vs heroes that are very strong at lvl 1-5 (darius, riven, xin, ...). The whole point is that good cho's dont fall into that trap and know how to survive these levels without losing lane too hard (e.g. freezing lane correctly right before tower before they can push you into tower at lvl 2-3 and back real quick for a ward and a dorans, ...). You telling him he "must be playing some pretty bad chos" makes your whole post seem stupid as bad cho's are exactly the ones who lose lane vs darius while good chos go equal (and outscale) or win it. Darius cant do anything to cho with his skillset and any semblance of potential jungler presence in the first few levels and gets outfarmed later on, just think for a moment about their respective skillsets and cooldowns and then come up with a scenario where darius kills cho after level 5 and then think about the fact taht cho completely outscales him (especially taking into account the way both of them will have to build in this type of lane)
wrong, I played at 2k+ last season and I am 1900 this season. Good chos get crushed too by my darius. If you dont start dorans blade as darius you are doing it wrong. If you want to test your cho against my darius by all means, message me and ill gladly do the matchup with you.
On December 25 2012 07:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Cho actually beats Darius really hard
I thought it was the other way around at first but after playing both sides pretty extensively it's Cho's lane without heavy camping
Also Vlad is doable but you have to build pure damage with the goal of bursting him before he bursts you
you have to be playing some pretty bad darius then. I have hundreds of games on him and have never even come close to losing vs a cho. even if you die from a gank you will always beat him in a straight up fight unless you are underleveled.
funny post although you probably dont realise it. Yes, bad cho's lose extremely hard vs heroes that are very strong at lvl 1-5 (darius, riven, xin, ...). The whole point is that good cho's dont fall into that trap and know how to survive these levels without losing lane too hard (e.g. freezing lane correctly right before tower before they can push you into tower at lvl 2-3 and back real quick for a ward and a dorans, ...). You telling him he "must be playing some pretty bad chos" makes your whole post seem stupid as bad cho's are exactly the ones who lose lane vs darius while good chos go equal (and outscale) or win it. Darius cant do anything to cho with his skillset and any semblance of potential jungler presence in the first few levels and gets outfarmed later on, just think for a moment about their respective skillsets and cooldowns and then come up with a scenario where darius kills cho after level 5 and then think about the fact taht cho completely outscales him (especially taking into account the way both of them will have to build in this type of lane)
wrong, I played at 2k+ last season and I am 1900 this season. Good chos get crushed too by my darius. If you dont start dorans blade as darius you are doing it wrong. If you want to test your cho against my darius by all means, message me and ill gladly do the matchup with you.
On December 25 2012 07:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Cho actually beats Darius really hard
I thought it was the other way around at first but after playing both sides pretty extensively it's Cho's lane without heavy camping
Also Vlad is doable but you have to build pure damage with the goal of bursting him before he bursts you
you have to be playing some pretty bad darius then. I have hundreds of games on him and have never even come close to losing vs a cho. even if you die from a gank you will always beat him in a straight up fight unless you are underleveled.
funny post although you probably dont realise it. Yes, bad cho's lose extremely hard vs heroes that are very strong at lvl 1-5 (darius, riven, xin, ...). The whole point is that good cho's dont fall into that trap and know how to survive these levels without losing lane too hard (e.g. freezing lane correctly right before tower before they can push you into tower at lvl 2-3 and back real quick for a ward and a dorans, ...). You telling him he "must be playing some pretty bad chos" makes your whole post seem stupid as bad cho's are exactly the ones who lose lane vs darius while good chos go equal (and outscale) or win it. Darius cant do anything to cho with his skillset and any semblance of potential jungler presence in the first few levels and gets outfarmed later on, just think for a moment about their respective skillsets and cooldowns and then come up with a scenario where darius kills cho after level 5 and then think about the fact taht cho completely outscales him (especially taking into account the way both of them will have to build in this type of lane)
wrong, I played at 2k+ last season and I am 1900 this season. Good chos get crushed too by my darius. If you dont start dorans blade as darius you are doing it wrong. If you want to test your cho against my darius by all means, message me and ill gladly do the matchup with you.
On December 25 2012 07:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Cho actually beats Darius really hard
I thought it was the other way around at first but after playing both sides pretty extensively it's Cho's lane without heavy camping
Also Vlad is doable but you have to build pure damage with the goal of bursting him before he bursts you
you have to be playing some pretty bad darius then. I have hundreds of games on him and have never even come close to losing vs a cho. even if you die from a gank you will always beat him in a straight up fight unless you are underleveled.
funny post although you probably dont realise it. Yes, bad cho's lose extremely hard vs heroes that are very strong at lvl 1-5 (darius, riven, xin, ...). The whole point is that good cho's dont fall into that trap and know how to survive these levels without losing lane too hard (e.g. freezing lane correctly right before tower before they can push you into tower at lvl 2-3 and back real quick for a ward and a dorans, ...). You telling him he "must be playing some pretty bad chos" makes your whole post seem stupid as bad cho's are exactly the ones who lose lane vs darius while good chos go equal (and outscale) or win it. Darius cant do anything to cho with his skillset and any semblance of potential jungler presence in the first few levels and gets outfarmed later on, just think for a moment about their respective skillsets and cooldowns and then come up with a scenario where darius kills cho after level 5 and then think about the fact taht cho completely outscales him (especially taking into account the way both of them will have to build in this type of lane)
wrong, I played at 2k+ last season and I am 1900 this season. Good chos get crushed too by my darius. If you dont start dorans blade as darius you are doing it wrong. If you want to test your cho against my darius by all means, message me and ill gladly do the matchup with you.
What's your summoner ID?
the one I use currently is Bin
Oh. I was curious because I wanted to see someone who played over a 100 games as Darius and was 2k+. Your new Summoner is still unranked according to Lolking
On December 25 2012 07:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Cho actually beats Darius really hard
I thought it was the other way around at first but after playing both sides pretty extensively it's Cho's lane without heavy camping
Also Vlad is doable but you have to build pure damage with the goal of bursting him before he bursts you
you have to be playing some pretty bad darius then. I have hundreds of games on him and have never even come close to losing vs a cho. even if you die from a gank you will always beat him in a straight up fight unless you are underleveled.
funny post although you probably dont realise it. Yes, bad cho's lose extremely hard vs heroes that are very strong at lvl 1-5 (darius, riven, xin, ...). The whole point is that good cho's dont fall into that trap and know how to survive these levels without losing lane too hard (e.g. freezing lane correctly right before tower before they can push you into tower at lvl 2-3 and back real quick for a ward and a dorans, ...). You telling him he "must be playing some pretty bad chos" makes your whole post seem stupid as bad cho's are exactly the ones who lose lane vs darius while good chos go equal (and outscale) or win it. Darius cant do anything to cho with his skillset and any semblance of potential jungler presence in the first few levels and gets outfarmed later on, just think for a moment about their respective skillsets and cooldowns and then come up with a scenario where darius kills cho after level 5 and then think about the fact taht cho completely outscales him (especially taking into account the way both of them will have to build in this type of lane)
wrong, I played at 2k+ last season and I am 1900 this season. Good chos get crushed too by my darius. If you dont start dorans blade as darius you are doing it wrong. If you want to test your cho against my darius by all means, message me and ill gladly do the matchup with you.
What's your summoner ID?
the one I use currently is Bin
Oh. I was curious because I wanted to see someone who played over a 100 games as Darius and was 2k+. Your new Summoner is still unranked according to Lolking
yea lolking is glitched so you would have to log in to see that account, not that I play darius on there anyway, switched to xin.
On December 25 2012 07:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Cho actually beats Darius really hard
I thought it was the other way around at first but after playing both sides pretty extensively it's Cho's lane without heavy camping
Also Vlad is doable but you have to build pure damage with the goal of bursting him before he bursts you
you have to be playing some pretty bad darius then. I have hundreds of games on him and have never even come close to losing vs a cho. even if you die from a gank you will always beat him in a straight up fight unless you are underleveled.
Can you upload a replay of you beating a chogath in lane? Either I don't know how to do it as Darius or my Cho is just so retardedly good that I don't lose to anyone anymore.
Also, just saw the dorans start thing, that might be why you're winning. I think it leaves you pretty open for gank and if they get fb->tabi off the bat what do you do?
On December 25 2012 07:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Cho actually beats Darius really hard
I thought it was the other way around at first but after playing both sides pretty extensively it's Cho's lane without heavy camping
Also Vlad is doable but you have to build pure damage with the goal of bursting him before he bursts you
you have to be playing some pretty bad darius then. I have hundreds of games on him and have never even come close to losing vs a cho. even if you die from a gank you will always beat him in a straight up fight unless you are underleveled.
Can you upload a replay of you beating a chogath in lane? Either I don't know how to do it as Darius or my Cho is just so retardedly good that I don't lose to anyone anymore.
Also, just saw the dorans start thing, that might be why you're winning. I think it leaves you pretty open for gank and if they get fb->tabi off the bat what do you do?
I dont use lolreplay unfortunately but since darius is such an easy character to play you are allowed to expend all your energy watching the map carefully, this separates good darius from bad darius. Be aware of your surroundings. I usually wait until either the jungler shows up in my lane or another lane and then push the lane and back(cant do that obviously if you get ganked) then you just bully the cho gath until he either calls for more ganks or has to b...take advantage of your stronger 5-9 and push him around. This isnt even taking into account my jungler. Also, It would be a blessing if I gave first blood and the cho rushed tabi, this is not season 2. rushing tabi is pretty bad...
Hm, maybe not, it seems to win the lane pretty easily for Chogath though in my experience. You just get tanky items and Darius' dmg is so pithy that he can't really do much vs your sustain + a flask. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong here, I did initially think it was a good lane for Darius until I played it from both sides and it went to Cho. I just don't feel like I know how to engage Chogath correctly because harass gets sustained and you're suddenly oom OR you have to all-in and he's Chogath at high hp.
On December 25 2012 07:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Cho actually beats Darius really hard
I thought it was the other way around at first but after playing both sides pretty extensively it's Cho's lane without heavy camping
Also Vlad is doable but you have to build pure damage with the goal of bursting him before he bursts you
you have to be playing some pretty bad darius then. I have hundreds of games on him and have never even come close to losing vs a cho. even if you die from a gank you will always beat him in a straight up fight unless you are underleveled.
funny post although you probably dont realise it. Yes, bad cho's lose extremely hard vs heroes that are very strong at lvl 1-5 (darius, riven, xin, ...). The whole point is that good cho's dont fall into that trap and know how to survive these levels without losing lane too hard (e.g. freezing lane correctly right before tower before they can push you into tower at lvl 2-3 and back real quick for a ward and a dorans, ...). You telling him he "must be playing some pretty bad chos" makes your whole post seem stupid as bad cho's are exactly the ones who lose lane vs darius while good chos go equal (and outscale) or win it. Darius cant do anything to cho with his skillset and any semblance of potential jungler presence in the first few levels and gets outfarmed later on, just think for a moment about their respective skillsets and cooldowns and then come up with a scenario where darius kills cho after level 5 and then think about the fact taht cho completely outscales him (especially taking into account the way both of them will have to build in this type of lane)
wrong, I played at 2k+ last season and I am 1900 this season. Good chos get crushed too by my darius. If you dont start dorans blade as darius you are doing it wrong. If you want to test your cho against my darius by all means, message me and ill gladly do the matchup with you.
Ye, I play a lot of Darius as well, and I used to shit on Cho with exactly a doran's start, but since the new patch, I really feel that I cant pressure him hard enough to take a big enough advantage (with the move from cs gold to automatic gold), simply because of jungle pressure. Even when I zone him completely (which is dangerous cuz of jungle and cho's huge range to assist a jungle gank), push him into tower and go b quickly for more dorans/wards/... I feel that this just isnt a big enough advantage to really win the lane. Then after lvl 9+ it becomes difficult to kill him without ignite due to his strong disengage and tankiness, and after lvl 11 it seems to become imposssible. I don't know, maybe I am really winning these lanes but not as hard as I would like to with darius hehe, it just seems to become a way too passive lane for a darius to really shine in my opinion.
Maybe some people hate me for it and I have the assumption that it is more of a solo queue type thingy (although I saw a jungle Darius in competitive korean play at OGN Winter), but I have recently played a lot vs Darius in the jungle and it owned pretty hard.
How would you run him in the jungle? I tried it by myself and tbh I'm not too impressed with his early level jungling, but maybe that's not too important since his ganks are pretty decent from my experience (especially when the lane you gank has a good CC by itself already)?
On December 25 2012 07:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Cho actually beats Darius really hard
I thought it was the other way around at first but after playing both sides pretty extensively it's Cho's lane without heavy camping
Also Vlad is doable but you have to build pure damage with the goal of bursting him before he bursts you
you have to be playing some pretty bad darius then. I have hundreds of games on him and have never even come close to losing vs a cho. even if you die from a gank you will always beat him in a straight up fight unless you are underleveled.
funny post although you probably dont realise it. Yes, bad cho's lose extremely hard vs heroes that are very strong at lvl 1-5 (darius, riven, xin, ...). The whole point is that good cho's dont fall into that trap and know how to survive these levels without losing lane too hard (e.g. freezing lane correctly right before tower before they can push you into tower at lvl 2-3 and back real quick for a ward and a dorans, ...). You telling him he "must be playing some pretty bad chos" makes your whole post seem stupid as bad cho's are exactly the ones who lose lane vs darius while good chos go equal (and outscale) or win it. Darius cant do anything to cho with his skillset and any semblance of potential jungler presence in the first few levels and gets outfarmed later on, just think for a moment about their respective skillsets and cooldowns and then come up with a scenario where darius kills cho after level 5 and then think about the fact taht cho completely outscales him (especially taking into account the way both of them will have to build in this type of lane)
wrong, I played at 2k+ last season and I am 1900 this season. Good chos get crushed too by my darius. If you dont start dorans blade as darius you are doing it wrong. If you want to test your cho against my darius by all means, message me and ill gladly do the matchup with you.
Ye, I play a lot of Darius as well, and I used to shit on Cho with exactly a doran's start, but since the new patch, I really feel that I cant pressure him hard enough to take a big enough advantage (with the move from cs gold to automatic gold), simply because of jungle pressure. Even when I zone him completely (which is dangerous cuz of jungle and cho's huge range to assist a jungle gank), push him into tower and go b quickly for more dorans/wards/... I feel that this just isnt a big enough advantage to really win the lane. Then after lvl 9+ it becomes difficult to kill him without ignite due to his strong disengage and tankiness, and after lvl 11 it seems to become imposssible. I don't know, maybe I am really winning these lanes but not as hard as I would like to with darius hehe, it just seems to become a way too passive lane for a darius to really shine in my opinion.
Actually maybe this is the source of my confusion, I was sure that darius beat cho until I played the match from both sides in a s3 tourney. Cho won the lane REALLY hard in both games and I think I'm a far superior player than the guy I played against. Have you played the matchup extensively post-s3? I'm pretty sure Cho + flask is just impossible to beat.
On December 25 2012 07:02 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Cho actually beats Darius really hard
I thought it was the other way around at first but after playing both sides pretty extensively it's Cho's lane without heavy camping
Also Vlad is doable but you have to build pure damage with the goal of bursting him before he bursts you
you have to be playing some pretty bad darius then. I have hundreds of games on him and have never even come close to losing vs a cho. even if you die from a gank you will always beat him in a straight up fight unless you are underleveled.
funny post although you probably dont realise it. Yes, bad cho's lose extremely hard vs heroes that are very strong at lvl 1-5 (darius, riven, xin, ...). The whole point is that good cho's dont fall into that trap and know how to survive these levels without losing lane too hard (e.g. freezing lane correctly right before tower before they can push you into tower at lvl 2-3 and back real quick for a ward and a dorans, ...). You telling him he "must be playing some pretty bad chos" makes your whole post seem stupid as bad cho's are exactly the ones who lose lane vs darius while good chos go equal (and outscale) or win it. Darius cant do anything to cho with his skillset and any semblance of potential jungler presence in the first few levels and gets outfarmed later on, just think for a moment about their respective skillsets and cooldowns and then come up with a scenario where darius kills cho after level 5 and then think about the fact taht cho completely outscales him (especially taking into account the way both of them will have to build in this type of lane)
wrong, I played at 2k+ last season and I am 1900 this season. Good chos get crushed too by my darius. If you dont start dorans blade as darius you are doing it wrong. If you want to test your cho against my darius by all means, message me and ill gladly do the matchup with you.
Ye, I play a lot of Darius as well, and I used to shit on Cho with exactly a doran's start, but since the new patch, I really feel that I cant pressure him hard enough to take a big enough advantage (with the move from cs gold to automatic gold), simply because of jungle pressure. Even when I zone him completely (which is dangerous cuz of jungle and cho's huge range to assist a jungle gank), push him into tower and go b quickly for more dorans/wards/... I feel that this just isnt a big enough advantage to really win the lane. Then after lvl 9+ it becomes difficult to kill him without ignite due to his strong disengage and tankiness, and after lvl 11 it seems to become imposssible. I don't know, maybe I am really winning these lanes but not as hard as I would like to with darius hehe, it just seems to become a way too passive lane for a darius to really shine in my opinion.
Actually maybe this is the source of my confusion, I was sure that darius beat cho until I played the match from both sides in a s3 tourney. Cho won the lane REALLY hard in both games and I think I'm a far superior player than the guy I played against. Have you played the matchup extensively post-s3? I'm pretty sure Cho + flask is just impossible to beat.
What was the jungle impact of the games? in a 1v1 scenario i am very certain that darius destroys cho even in season 3, but obviously junglers can change that really easily or a simply misplay. Top lane is the most unforgiving.
Let's say their jungler is more skilled but I got FB off of a gank when I'm playing Cho, and in the part where I'm on the Darius side I would have killed him every time if their jungler didn't show up at the precise moment I all-in'd about 3 times in a row. Both games Cho stomped the shit out of lane, but I guess when I'm playing Cho and I get FB it's just done anyway.
For whatever it's worth, my $0.02 is that Darius wins pretty easily without gonks and that Cho supports gonks much better. Matchup has always seemed like it's 100% decided by junglers in my experiences.
On December 27 2012 05:43 little fancy wrote: Maybe some people hate me for it and I have the assumption that it is more of a solo queue type thingy (although I saw a jungle Darius in competitive korean play at OGN Winter), but I have recently played a lot vs Darius in the jungle and it owned pretty hard.
How would you run him in the jungle? I tried it by myself and tbh I'm not too impressed with his early level jungling, but maybe that's not too important since his ganks are pretty decent from my experience (especially when the lane you gank has a good CC by itself already)?
If your lane can get the opponent's flash off them, they're dead. Been playing a good bit of jungle Darius lately, but I don't have a fantastic build order for you since I get fed every game. Built Wriggles->BC->FM->Hydra... big damage, tanky, useful in teamfights. I want to experiment with mobility boots for epic funs, his cleartime is already superfast.
On January 02 2013 23:45 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I've played the matchup a few more times since and it's basically typical top lane vs darius, whoever gets first gank/kill wins really hard.
On December 27 2012 05:43 little fancy wrote: Maybe some people hate me for it and I have the assumption that it is more of a solo queue type thingy (although I saw a jungle Darius in competitive korean play at OGN Winter), but I have recently played a lot vs Darius in the jungle and it owned pretty hard.
How would you run him in the jungle? I tried it by myself and tbh I'm not too impressed with his early level jungling, but maybe that's not too important since his ganks are pretty decent from my experience (especially when the lane you gank has a good CC by itself already)?
If your lane can get the opponent's flash off them, they're dead. Been playing a good bit of jungle Darius lately, but I don't have a fantastic build order for you since I get fed every game. Built Wriggles->BC->FM->Hydra... big damage, tanky, useful in teamfights. I want to experiment with mobility boots for epic funs, his cleartime is already superfast.
Does rushing mob boots still work like it used to in S2?
What do people think? I think this might be really cool for making him more skill-based.
I think the patch will balance him, but who knows.
It always confuses me that his passive can stack and does like 60 dmg at level 1 with 1 stack. That's more than most champions can do with an auto or a lvl 1 spell. Like I'm honestly confused how Darius doesn't have a higher win rate. Maybe People just die in ganks as him or are immobile or steal kills. IDK
What do people think? I think this might be really cool for making him more skill-based.
I think the patch will balance him, but who knows.
It always confuses me that his passive can stack and does like 60 dmg at level 1 with 1 stack. That's more than most champions can do with an auto or a lvl 1 spell. Like I'm honestly confused how Darius doesn't have a higher win rate. Maybe People just die in ganks as him or are immobile or steal kills. IDK
He's so easy to play.
Cause he makes your own teammates rage on top of making the enemy rage. You press R a few times, steal a few kills and your teammates at low elo rage and afk.
What do people think? I think this might be really cool for making him more skill-based.
I think the patch will balance him, but who knows.
It always confuses me that his passive can stack and does like 60 dmg at level 1 with 1 stack. That's more than most champions can do with an auto or a lvl 1 spell. Like I'm honestly confused how Darius doesn't have a higher win rate. Maybe People just die in ganks as him or are immobile or steal kills. IDK
He's so easy to play.
Cause he makes your own teammates rage on top of making the enemy rage. You press R a few times, steal a few kills and your teammates at low elo rage and afk.
Yeah that's probably the best explanation.
I'm 9-1 with him in ranked and at least 6-3 in normals with him. I feel he's a bit unfair. You just don't steal kills from an AD unless necessary and suddenly Darius is just most clearly the most OP champion in the game.
how many times was darius picked at LCS? nerf olaf first please morello people bitch about darius' ult? olaf's E does more damage than darius' ult on a fucking 5 second cooldown
On January 16 2013 02:41 gtrsrs wrote: how many times was darius picked at LCS? nerf olaf first please morello people bitch about darius' ult? olaf's E does more damage than darius' ult on a fucking 5 second cooldown
salty
Honestly, I think Morello just likes nerfing shit that wrecks him in Trolo Q.
On January 16 2013 02:41 gtrsrs wrote: how many times was darius picked at LCS? nerf olaf first please morello people bitch about darius' ult? olaf's E does more damage than darius' ult on a fucking 5 second cooldown
salty
Honestly, I think Morello just likes nerfing shit that wrecks him in Trolo Q.
No wai. That would mean he'd end up nerfing everything... oh wait
In all honesty it probably just looks like that. There's probably more going into deciding if something should be nerfed.
On January 16 2013 02:41 gtrsrs wrote: how many times was darius picked at LCS? nerf olaf first please morello people bitch about darius' ult? olaf's E does more damage than darius' ult on a fucking 5 second cooldown
salty
I think pro games are weird. Pros pick shen a lot but he has a low win rate in yolo queue. Then pros coordinate ganks and save allies with Shen's ult like 7 times before laning ends. I think it's a similar idea behind Olaf: his ult makes it REALLY hard to gank him.
What do people think? I think this might be really cool for making him more skill-based.
I think the patch will balance him, but who knows.
It always confuses me that his passive can stack and does like 60 dmg at level 1 with 1 stack. That's more than most champions can do with an auto or a lvl 1 spell. Like I'm honestly confused how Darius doesn't have a higher win rate. Maybe People just die in ganks as him or are immobile or steal kills. IDK
He's so easy to play.
Cause he makes your own teammates rage on top of making the enemy rage. You press R a few times, steal a few kills and your teammates at low elo rage and afk.
Yeah that's probably the best explanation.
I'm 9-1 with him in ranked and at least 6-3 in normals with him. I feel he's a bit unfair. You just don't steal kills from an AD unless necessary and suddenly Darius is just most clearly the most OP champion in the game.
While I like the playstyle of Darius, I think he is just way too strong. There are a few things that really annoy me about him, and they all add up to be what I consider to be generally the most OP champion in top-lane right now.
1) He wins most low-level exchanges.
In a straight-up fight at levels 1-3, Darius wins vs the vast majority of champions out there.
2) 550 range displacement ability.
Characters that can poke Darius with an auto-attack without ending up in a full-on fight: Caitlyn, Tristana @ level 16 or so, maybe Annie.
Realistically, Darius is basically immune to poke available to most champions in the early laning phases. At best, most champs trade either mana or hp to poke at him, and that is almost always a losing battle with his huge base stats.
3) Playing from behind.
Even if Darius somehow manages to lose those initial fights, he is never out of the game. It is not uncommon to have his ult doing upwards of 600 true damage by level 11. This 1 ability means that Darius only has to worry about getting champions down to ~40%hp and he is back in the game. His remaining abilities allow for that to happen in 1 or 2 exchanges, even when he is behind.
4) The typical bruiser complaint.
Even if Darius builds 100% defense, his base damages are so high, it doesn't even matter. On top of that, his AD scaling is ridiculous, it's like Riot knew that tank-Darius would be too strong, so they just gave him insane AP ratios in hopes that people would hopefully invest in offense instead so that maybe someone might kill him eventually.
Really, the only issue Darius seems to have at all is the lack of a closer, but with such a huge presence in lane, it doesn't even seem to matter. When Darius eventually gets there, people die.
I play yorick when someone picks darius, I don't think I have lost yet. He is defs strong in lane, but he pushes if he wants to harass early and doesn't have any real escapes. He is really strong 1v1, but if you team is coordinated he really isn't that big a deal.
So even with Darius, you can continue to ride the Elder Lizard train. Works out pretty well now with the Red Elixir nerf. Open bead + 5 pots + ward + 1 mana. Lane like usual. With Elder Lizard, it's twice as much DoT damage but you get AD+CDR on top of it. Giant's Belt if you need defensive stats. I Brutalizer for additional CDR/AD/ArPen.
On May 16 2013 03:52 NeoIllusions wrote: So even with Darius, you can continue to ride the Elder Lizard train. Works out pretty well now with the Red Elixir nerf. Open bead + 5 pots + ward + 1 mana. Lane like usual. With Elder Lizard, it's twice as much DoT damage but you get AD+CDR on top of it. Giant's Belt if you need defensive stats. I Brutalizer for additional CDR/AD/ArPen.
Good times.
If you're taking 5 pots you might as well get the faerie charm imo, but this sounds really awesome. Ever since the red pot nerf I've kinda stopped playing top lane, but Elder Lizard seems like a really good idea on Darius.
On May 16 2013 03:52 NeoIllusions wrote: So even with Darius, you can continue to ride the Elder Lizard train. Works out pretty well now with the Red Elixir nerf. Open bead + 5 pots + ward + 1 mana. Lane like usual. With Elder Lizard, it's twice as much DoT damage but you get AD+CDR on top of it. Giant's Belt if you need defensive stats. I Brutalizer for additional CDR/AD/ArPen.
Good times.
that sounds absolutely fucking hilarious. i must do this. now.
Wait a second, crippling strike has a 8second CD that is reduced by a second for each passive stack
with 40% CDR the CD is 4.8 seconds, so with 5 stacks it has no CD? Does this work? 200%AD and a 40% slow on every attack? Would be pretty mana spendy I guess...
Edit: this doesn't work, %CDR is applied after stack cdr
Is Spirit of the Elder Lizard actually a good item on Darius? I wouldn't know as I am still quite new to the game and haven't quite got my item builds down.
Also another question:
During the laning phase, when is a good time to harass the opponent with decimate? Should I go for it every time the enemy is in range? The reason I ask is because if I throw out decimates to constantly harass the opponent, I'm going to push the lane to their tower.
So I guess the question is essentially if the extra harassment damage is worth the pushed out lane.
I would also love to know about Elder Lizard. Also i have a really hard time in teamfights with Darius. I feel like my role is to tank, but i don't feel like i really have the tools to do so. I can peel semi well with the pull and slow, but i just don't feel like it's enough. Also with the low mobility i feel like i get poked way too easily.
I would really like to improve with this champ because he's one of my favorites. His flavor is through the roof and he has one of the most satisfying ultimates in the game.
You should be building tanky. In reality, all you need is Elder Lizard as offensive item. Build resists from there. Even boots, stick with Tabi or Mercs. Darius needs to flank well. If you're chasing down in a straight line, then yes, expect to get kited.
Be brave, Flash Apprehend if you can ensure a combo kill.
Elder Lizard is exceptionally good on Darius. It's pretty much the perfect cost to reliably invest into offensive itemization before Darius needs to start tanking out to be effective, it's giving him pretty much his ideal offensive stats in AD and CDR, and after the Season 3 item update, spirit stone is the best cheap regen item in the game, which is a very underappreciated part of the equation.
Nothing in this game is clear and simple, I would say Decimate whenever possible if they're letting you sweet-spot it, but this is assuming you have good wards and pressure from your team to avoid dying for pushing. Mitigate the pushing from it by positioning to the sides of creep waves rather than in the middle of them if you really can't afford to push but still need to trade to keep lane presence.
Teamfighting as Darius depends on soooo many factors. Essentially you look for pulls when you can pull people and kill them quickly and otherwise try to find your way to the middle/back of the opposing team without drawing all their focus (typically by deferring initiation to someone else on your team and coming in as a secondary front liner). The most common mistake I see Dariuses making late game is acting as their team's primary tank and trying to facetank the opposing team. It doesn't matter how many defensive items you have, Darius has no abilities that help him mitigate or avoid damage. At the end of the day, Darius is a reset-based damage carry who needs to wade through the opposing team to do his job (which is why he typically builds so damn tanky).
What Smash says is so true. At the end of the day, with all your defensive items, you're not a Malphite. You don't have a Brutal Strikes that increases your Armor or Ground Pound that's going to decrease the enemies' AS. On a spectrum scale, Darius is always going to be more offensive than defensive.
Defensive items just helps ensure that you can a few hits but stay alive long enough in team fights to chain Guillotine and clean up. But by no means why you behave like the initiator for your team. In a team fight, I would be extremely cautious to even use Apprehend. It's great when you're dueling 1v1 but in 5v5, Apprehend tends to fuck your team up more than being beneficial.
On May 26 2013 05:15 NeoIllusions wrote: What Smash says is so true. At the end of the day, with all your defensive items, you're not a Malphite. You don't have a Brutal Strikes that increases your Armor or Ground Pound that's going to decrease the enemies' AS. On a spectrum scale, Darius is always going to be more offensive than defensive.
Defensive items just helps ensure that you can a few hits but stay alive long enough in team fights to chain Guillotine and clean up. But by no means why you behave like the initiator for your team. In a team fight, I would be extremely cautious to even use Apprehend. It's great when you're dueling 1v1 but in 5v5, Apprehend tends to fuck your team up more than being beneficial.
while I agree that you should be careful with Apprehend, its also an EXTREMELY underrated teamfight ability when combined with other AOE. People generally think about it as a hook, when really in a teamfight it can be basically an orianna ult but more predictable and closer packing. Its one of the best displacement moves in the game because it literally stacks everything in its cone DIRECTLY ontop of Darius. Combine a good flash Apprehend with Xerath or Rumble or fucking Tibbers and it ends a teamfight instantly.
What do you folks think about movement speed quints? Whenever I didn't use them on Darius, I missed them a lot. Also, Swiftie boots have served me well in quite a number of games yet when the enemy was lacking hard CC.
I just overlooked SotEL, definitely have to try it. Looks good on paper. But do you really feel like that is enough to be a real threat? I used to inculde a Last Whisper in my last games with him and fell in love with the Mallet (which I think Darius wants almost every game) + Hexdrinker / MoM combination. It's just so much effective HP, mallet's HP interacts so well with MoM's passive and the item's components are nice to have against pesky top lane Zacs. For additional CDR, I found Frozen Heart to be pretty effective, it also sustains you with dunk mana in drawn out fights.
Maybe we might see a Darius here or there in the LCS? I feel like he matches pretty well with all these Kennens that have magically risen in the last two weeks. On a completely irrelevant note, which skin do you guys prefer on Darius? Contrary to my friend's believe, I actually like the new Woad Darius skin, but maybe that's just odd me.
On July 01 2013 06:53 little fancy wrote: What do you folks think about movement speed quints? Whenever I didn't use them on Darius, I missed them a lot. Also, Swiftie boots have served me well in quite a number of games yet when the enemy was lacking hard CC.
I just overlooked SotEL, definitely have to try it. Looks good on paper. But do you really feel like that is enough to be a real threat? I used to inculde a Last Whisper in my last games with him and fell in love with the Mallet (which I think Darius wants almost every game) + Hexdrinker / MoM combination. It's just so much effective HP, mallet's HP interacts so well with MoM's passive and the item's components are nice to have against pesky top lane Zacs. For additional CDR, I found Frozen Heart to be pretty effective, it also sustains you with dunk mana in drawn out fights.
Maybe we might see a Darius here or there in the LCS? I feel like he matches pretty well with all these Kennens that have magically risen in the last two weeks. On a completely irrelevant note, which skin do you guys prefer on Darius? Contrary to my friend's believe, I actually like the new Woad Darius skin, but maybe that's just odd me.
I personally don't use movement speed quints or Frozen Mallet, as I don't really feel that Darius has problems sticking on to people. Swifties I haven't experimented too much on Summoner's Rift, but I do always pick them up when I play Dominion. For 5's I usually end up getting Merc Treads, as I need more magic resist in addition to my hexdrinker.
Frozen Heart isn't something I've even considered, so I'm going to have to tinker around with that.
As for the LCS I was under the impression that Darius never sees any professional play, so it doesn't seem likely. Mind you I don't follow the pro scene at all so I could be talking absolute madness here.
Also Toad King Darius is awesome. Easily my favorite Darius skin. Classic is great too. I don't really like Lord Darius for some reason and Bioforge Darius is just... I don't know. Bioforge looks like he wants to be a sphess mahrine, but that slicked hair is bringing him down.
MS Quints are high oppurtunity cost for laning. You can get away with them vs. ranged characters and hell, they might even be your best bet vs. ranged matchups, but vs. Melee, you need combat stats from your quints unless it's a really soft lane.
Lizard Elder lost 10 AD last patch, so it's iffy now. Phage, Bruta or Hexdrinker for early laning offense is probably the best way to go these days unless you get far ahead and can afford to go BT rush, though Lizard is probably still fine.
Darius shows up in profession play as a super niche pick. He's not common because his 1v2 is straight up dreadful, but he's still managed to show up occasionally, most notably as a tank buster vs. the popular Xin picks early in S3. He is only ever picked to brawl the opposing front line because his team has a strong enough back line to put the impetus on engaging on the opposing team though (i.e. he's basically picked as a peeler who's strongest form of CC is killing the opposing divers).
I played him some more and had best results with an almost full tank build with decent CDR (Frozen Heart + 2 giant belt items is boss). Hexdrinker and later MoM are core imo unless they really don't have meaningful magic damage. So, that's 4 items + boots 2 which leaves space for one 'real' damage item besides the AD from Hexdrinker. This one damage item I feel Darius really needs to not get ignored later.
I didn't like SotEL if the game took too long, but don't think that Bloodthirster fits too well either. Because I had no other real idea, I went for Last Whisper but wasn't impressed too either. Maybe Atma's impaler might be decent enough with 3.5k hp?
On July 03 2013 05:43 little fancy wrote: Thanks for your answers guys.
I played him some more and had best results with an almost full tank build with decent CDR (Frozen Heart + 2 giant belt items is boss). Hexdrinker and later MoM are core imo unless they really don't have meaningful magic damage. So, that's 4 items + boots 2 which leaves space for one 'real' damage item besides the AD from Hexdrinker. This one damage item I feel Darius really needs to not get ignored later.
I didn't like SotEL if the game took too long, but don't think that Bloodthirster fits too well either. Because I had no other real idea, I went for Last Whisper but wasn't impressed too either. Maybe Atma's impaler might be decent enough with 3.5k hp?
BotRK is the strongest item for tanky characters that only build 1 offensive item.
On July 03 2013 06:15 Gahlo wrote: BotRK is the strongest item for tanky characters that only build 1 offensive item.
I feel like BotRK isn't that strong on Darius because he does not really auto-attack that much outside of his w, Black Cleaver might be better due to the CDR and Arpen with even more Health.
On July 03 2013 06:15 Gahlo wrote: BotRK is the strongest item for tanky characters that only build 1 offensive item.
I feel like BotRK isn't that strong on Darius because he does not really auto-attack that much outside of his w, Black Cleaver might be better due to the CDR and Arpen with even more Health.
Higher stacks on the target make for faster W cds and stronger ults. The armor pen clashes with the pen on his E and the health is negligible when we're looking for the "the one offensive item."
Personally I do like Black Cleaver on Darius, as it builds out of the Brutalizer.
This is just my intuition, but getting a Brutalizer -> Warmogs -> Black Cleaver on Darius feels pretty powerful. That being said, I can definitely see the argument for getting a BoTK on him as well.
Just my 2 cents.
P.S. Does the armor pen on the Black Cleaver really clash with Apprehend's passive? I would have thought that the effects would have been additive or multiplicative.
The effect is multiplicative I believe. If you have 5 stacks of BC on a target, he now only has 75% of his armor, then your e will ignore 25% of that 75%.
Botrk active is nice but I feel like the team utility of BC (shredding armor for your adc) and the CDR are better suited on Darius.
On July 03 2013 09:29 Frudgey wrote: Personally I do like Black Cleaver on Darius, as it builds out of the Brutalizer.
This is just my intuition, but getting a Brutalizer -> Warmogs -> Black Cleaver on Darius feels pretty powerful. That being said, I can definitely see the argument for getting a BoTK on him as well.
Just my 2 cents.
P.S. Does the armor pen on the Black Cleaver really clash with Apprehend's passive? I would have thought that the effects would have been additive or multiplicative.
they don't clash anymore, they did at the time I wrote the guide. Season 3 changed the stack order of flat pen with % pen.
So, after LW just doesn't seem to cut it, I cluelessly went for Mercurial Scimitar as a 6th item in some long games and this one actually did surprise me in a good way. Not only does it give MR besides Mercs/MoM against the uprising double AP comps, but people don't really expect a Darius to instantly break free from a CC they relied on to fight him, including the initial speed buff which usually is enough to get into E range. And the big chunk of AD makes the lategame ult hit for roughly 1000k true damage at 5 stacks.
So currently, my endbuilds look something like this:
Boots (mostly Merc/Tabi, but Swifties too, if needed) Spirit of the Elder Lizard Maw of Malmortius Frozen Mallet Frozen Heart Mercurial Scimitar
Only downside is that you stop at 3k HP or something, so I'm considering exchanging SotEL with some HP, probably Randuin's for the pull-in followed up by a very long lasting slow (you become so stacked on resistance it's not even funny for the enemy).
I think for your case taking out Spirit of the Elder Lizard and throwing in either Randuin's or Warmogs would be a good idea. You're already getting plenty of attack damage from your other items so one more defensive item couldn't hurt.
And while I'm not claiming to be a good player, here's what my end build typically looks like:
Boots (Typically Merc Treads) Black Cleaver Warmogs Randuin's Omen Guardian Angel Maw of Malmortius
I always find it interesting the different builds that people do for Darius. Though I'm certainly going to try little fancy's build. That stuff looks delicious.
P.S. Is Jungle Darius a thing? My friend insists that Darius isn't a good jungler yet I've heard people on Team Liquid say that he's at least a decent jungler.
I might go another damage item though because its pretty expensive and he already wipes out an entire minion wave in seconds. You don't need any more wave clear than that, it wont make the next wave come any faster.
Jungle Darius is definitely a thing. Its not even gimmicky in the slightest. He clears well and his ganks are absolutely terrifying with the hook and powerful slow even at level 3. I play him all the time. He's also very nicely versatile in the jungle, as you can build as tanky or as damaging as is needed and do well. I recommend getting Spirit of the Ancient Golem and Mobi boots early for the tenacity and ganking power, as you don't need any damage items early. If you can get into range of someone you can stick to them easily with the movespeed from passive and the W slow and then hook if they escape for a nearly guaranteed kill. His dueling is also silly good so you can totally fuck anyone trying to counterjungle you if you catch them.
I've historically built Hydra on Darius because auto w proc is just so strong for AoE but do you think BotRK might be better given that it's impossible to dodge hooks without flash once you get slowed by the active?
On August 16 2013 18:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I've historically built Hydra on Darius because auto w proc is just so strong for AoE but do you think BotRK might be better given that it's impossible to dodge hooks without flash once you get slowed by the active?
I think it is better.
1. AS is great because you need to get 5 stacks of bleed as fast as possible. 2. Percent health damage synergizes with his free armor pen lategame. 3. The active allows you to engage with it and stick on someone until they have 4-5 stacks before you use W, which results in a lower CD W and more damage. Whereas without it you typically need to blow W earlier to guarantee constant DPS. 4. The active allows for maximum WTF burst finishing of people who though they were totally winning a duel.
It annoys me that it doesn't take perfect advantage of his good AD Ratios, but I still think its the best option. There are a ton of items that work well on Darius. I've built Zephyr and Wits (not at the same time) and had good results.
I don't think I'd go BotRK on Darius under nearly any circumstances. If you want a pure damage item, get something with AD to take advantage of his bullshit ratios and Attack Reset. Why do you need AS when you can pull -> auto -> Q -> auto -> W -> auto for full stacks pretty fucking fast with little to no counterplay outside of flash? If they build armor, you're better off going LW than BotRK and relying on your E passive (which doesn't do much against someone with a single big armor item like GA or higher). If you need sticking power, FMallet is better as long as you can reliably land pulls.
Then again, I'm of the opinion that Darius should be built tanky pretty much at all times, even if you crush your lane. I built Hydra a few times recently because I was splitpushing, but I'd never really advocate him as one who builds damage items.
The only offensive Item I build regularly is hexdrinker. I Darius never lacks damage and allways lacks tankyness and anti kite. So getting to randuins fast is almost allways a good choice imo. ranuins, mercs hexdrinker is my core, except I face tons of ad then I go tabi. And even after that I rather build a mallet than a purely offensive item like botrk and flash/ghost into their team.
dunno about you guys but i allways die a little inside when my toplaner is too pussy to initiate because he only has lifesteal and mb a giants belt.
oh and not to mention randuins pretty much hardcounters anything that builds lifesteal against darius.
Speaking of Flash/Ghost, I started seeing a lot of Dariuses run Ghost in top lane. While Flash-Pull initates are cool, they seemed to perform much better in teamfights and didn't allow enemies to escape, not to mention made him a bit harder to gank in top lane.
Could work. It works on Vlad, but Vlad isn't as much of a lane bully (usually), while Darius wants Ignite for early kills. On the other hand, your damage is usually high enough to not need it.
The only thing I'd miss is the Grievous Wounds passive. Ignite is pretty necessary to shut down Lifesteal on ADs in the late game (or certain champions like Singed/Mundo/Vlad with high health regen), so unless you have someone else with ignite that'd going to be diving the AD, I'd sorely miss it.
Randuin's cuts down on the Lifesteal for sure, but they'll still get a decent amount per hit.
Hey I have a question for you jungle Darius's out there.
So I definitely want to play more jungle Darius, and I've been doing some theory crafting about this. How many of you guys take your initial blue buff and then go over to their red buff to mess up the enemy jungler good? I mean of course it seems situational, but it doesn't seem like a bad idea at all to go to their jungle and mess them up. Darius is a pretty good duelist after all.
I'm not that familiar to jungling so please forgive me if this ends up being a (very) dumb question.
I was going to let this stew to see if someone who plays Darius would pop up but I'll give you a general assessment based on general game knowledge.
This idea seems legit in the sense that lvl2 Darius can probably manfight anything not called Volibear at level 2, especially if he can con them into tanking the red buff.
here are my concerns.
-Extremely leash dependant, as Darius pretty much just has to deal with the damage golem does to it (no shields/heals)
-Darius can't take ignite, a lot of the junglers who can pull this off on the regular are junglers who can afford to take ignite, Darius with ignite/smite isn't too much of a gank threat
-Ghost has potential to be strong on Darius but this strat requires flash into baron/dragon pick to be available should things get dicy.
-depends on the strength of the surrounding lanes, if you have mid Ryze for example it might not be a good choice.
So all in all it seems like a bit of a gamble, but Darius is a bit of a snowball jungle anyway so I say fuck it, I'd look to see if I can viably open Dblade on Darius, perhaps try Diamond's 14/3/13 setup, if can get blue down w/o smite and 70%+ health available, go baylife on some niggas
I encountered a darius jungle recently that strongly impressed me. He ran ghost/smite, rushed golem spirit and mobies, and could just dive toplane everytime his ghost was up (he was blue side). Overall he just crushed the game and snowballed really hard, so my opinion may be a bit skewed.
But with mobies and ghost, he really is a scary mofo.
I'm so bad at invades. How do you do them correctly? I only can do it on like lee sin, everyone else they either just take red and flash out if I wait till they get low, or If I just engage way early before they fight red for a while then mid has time to come in and kill me while we manfight. If you try to actually "steal" red then its just comes down to a smite off and if you lose then you are way behind.
So I've been playing a lot more Darius (As if that's a surprise to anyone) and I have some thoughts about him that I'd like to share. But first a question:
What do you guys get as your damage item on Darius? I used to go Black Cleaver all the time (Brutalizer too good for laning) but now I'm definitely seeing Ravenous Hydra as an viable item on this guy, especially when you need to clear your wave. (I've been told that this useful against champions to which to need to shove lane against)
So I think I'm in the boat of either Black Cleaver or Ravenous Hydra, depending on what the situation calls for.
Also I played one game as Darius to which I went over to their Red right after my Blue and I had good results. I forced a flash and stole their Red. (This was against Evelyn) Keep in mind though this was one game (In a blind normals) and I need to do this much more before I can determine whether or not this is a good thing to do. Two things to note though was that I take my standard 9/21/0 Runepage and for my start I took a cloth armor instead of machete. I believe that Darius can easily jungle with a cloth armor start as his damage output is just that high.
Also I've been running Ghost on this guy and I have to say, it feels very strong. Obviously I'm going to have to test this more, but so far I'm liking Ghost more than Flash on Darius.
We just discussed offensive itemization one page ago.
Also sure you can start cloth5 but why would you? It gives no advantage, and in fact is a disadvantage as it delays your SOTAG for no reason and lowers your damage output.
I personally think thats a reju beat + 5 hp pots + 1 mana pot + 1 ward into hydra into wardens mail + cowl (order depending on lane matchup) is the best way to build Darius like 90% of the time top lane.
I don't think there is a choice between dmg items the synergy hydra has with darius is insane, as it is on any champ with an auto attack reset. The only real choice I find myself making is if I turn the tiamat into a hydra first or I build a defensive item before the upgrade. For instance, against a tryn I will often build a wardens mail before the upgrade.
Ghost compared to flash is more a play style choice. Personally I like having flash as if i can force them to burn their flash at any point in lane the treat of a flash hook can zone almost anyone really really hard. In lower elo (this is litterally how I rose from silver 3 to gold 1) people dont realise this threat, walk into range and just die to a flash hook combo. Ghost is probably stronger for sticking in team fights, but landing a good Q on multiple people can solve that anyway with the ms on Darius passive.
Ghost on Darius -Allows him to keep up with the running away enemy as you Q consecutively -Ghost better than Flash on champs without escape mechanism because it allows you to run away better (depends on CC)
Flash on Darius -Allows him to snag kills in lanes better because low enemies who thinks they are in a safe distance can be killed by Darius Flash, E grab, and then Ult pop.
I think Ghost on Darius has always been a thing on him..even champion spotlight has him using ghost
On August 24 2013 03:59 sob3k wrote: We just discussed offensive itemization one page ago.
Whoops. My apologies.
Also sure you can start cloth5 but why would you? It gives no advantage, and in fact is a disadvantage as it delays your SOTAG for no reason and lowers your damage output.
My thinking for starting cloth5 in the jungle is that if I do decide to go into the enemies jungle the cloth armor was going to give me more of an edge (When dueling the other jungler) than starting machete. I guess you can argue that Darius wouldn't need that extra edge, but I figured rather to be safe than sorry. I was just under the impression that if the enemy junger started machete and you didn't you could end up easily crushing him, as you'd take reduced damage from them while they don't do any extra damage against you.
Also for Jungle Darius I don't build any Jungle items, hence another reason I don't get the machete. I don't know how necessary Jungle items are on Darius, so I could be doing something extremely, extremely stupid.
On August 17 2013 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote: New phage pretty good on this guy.
I used to not really like building phage on anyone unless I got first blood or was really ahead but now between the ms buff this gives and your w anyone that over extends the slightest is potential kill. my current build vs ad is phage>ninja>giants belt>pickaxe or sheen if im behind after giants belt i build omens. vs ap hexdrinker first and build as needed.
Also sure you can start cloth5 but why would you? It gives no advantage, and in fact is a disadvantage as it delays your SOTAG for no reason and lowers your damage output.
My thinking for starting cloth5 in the jungle is that if I do decide to go into the enemies jungle the cloth armor was going to give me more of an edge (When dueling the other jungler) than starting machete. I guess you can argue that Darius wouldn't need that extra edge, but I figured rather to be safe than sorry. I was just under the impression that if the enemy junger started machete and you didn't you could end up easily crushing him, as you'd take reduced damage from them while they don't do any extra damage against you.
Also for Jungle Darius I don't build any Jungle items, hence another reason I don't get the machete. I don't know how necessary Jungle items are on Darius, so I could be doing something extremely, extremely stupid.
Yeah I don't think you will ever need the cloth to win an invade that you don't totally screw up. YOu should crush them regardless if they try to duel because you are Darius with Darius passive and you should have the drop on them and they should be being aggroed by red as well. They should have no chance if they stay and duel, and cloth wont help you secure a kill on them if they just run.
You don't need jungle items. SOTAG is just absolutely perfect for Darius in a jungle role. It gives the perfect amount of health to make you tanky in the midgame, sustain that allows you to farm continuously if needed, CDR which is like the best stat on Darius, and tenacity which allows you to duel and gank without getting peeled off far more effectively and allows you freedom in boot choices (mobi for ganks). Its more gold efficient on Darius than any other defensive item in the game even completely ignoring the increased jungle speed passive. Its literally a perfect core for jungle Darius.
I didn't know that SOTAG was that good on Darius until I looked at the wiki, and you're totally right. It gives him everything that he wants. Like, literally everything.
As for not needing cloth I see where you're coming from and I totally understand your reasoning. I think you're right on this one.
Obviously I just need to play Jungle Darius more. :D
I was reading the dota 2 6.79 patch and noticed that axe's ult no longer goes on cd if it kills an enemy hero (basically to the way darius's old ult worked). just kinda funny how lol nerfed this ability while dota is buffing it
1) Is there a best offensive item for him? Somehow I think Trinity or Cleaver are superior to Hydra and BotRK (these are the 4 items i see the most, excluding Hex vs multiple APs)
always go tank with darius. Having more than one damage item will lose you the game vs good enemy team. Your job is to peel and apply as many stacks of hemorrhage as possible. But mostly you'll act like a sponge or zoner.
Dont go "xin zhao syndrome", which happens when you own low leagues with trinity/feral/black cleaver, then suddenly you cant do shit in higher league, and be like "wtf, my team sucks".
On October 09 2014 17:47 saddaromma wrote: always go tank with darius. Having more than one damage item will lose you the game vs good enemy team. Your job is to peel and apply as many stacks of hemorrhage as possible. But mostly you'll act like a sponge or zoner.
Dont go "xin zhao syndrome", which happens when you own low leagues with trinity/feral/black cleaver, then suddenly you cant do shit in higher league, and be like "wtf, my team sucks".
On October 09 2014 17:47 saddaromma wrote: always go tank with darius. Having more than one damage item will lose you the game vs good enemy team. Your job is to peel and apply as many stacks of hemorrhage as possible. But mostly you'll act like a sponge or zoner.
Dont go "xin zhao syndrome", which happens when you own low leagues with trinity/feral/black cleaver, then suddenly you cant do shit in higher league, and be like "wtf, my team sucks".
Sure, I just wondered which is this one item xD
Depends... MoM vs heavy ap. Triforce if ahead. Armor/HP if behind/equal or unsure what to do.
I think Hydra is the best. Hydra gives him badly needed sustain in lane, moar AOE in fights, and the passive/active lets him quickly push and shove lanes without spamming Q. Despite Q only costing 40 mana, his mana pool is very tiny. Hydra active also adds another bit of burst to his combo.
Triforce is also really good especially the movespeed and phage proc but it means he has no sustain in lane and is more expensive.