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[Champion] Kayle - Page 3

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storkfan
Profile Joined March 2012
493 Posts
May 24 2012 20:35 GMT
#41
how about going back to the basics and using bt+pd for damage? i mean that is what does the most damage for the least money
greggy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom1483 Posts
May 24 2012 20:39 GMT
#42
This applies to jungle kayle only.
I actually toyed with fast stinger+vamp instead of full on wriggles on kayle since she wants both AS and cdr but the fact that you can't build the stinger into anything worthwhile kinda ruins that. I don't build wriggles anyway and go for zekes instead.


Malady is shockingly bad. Like, it's damage increase is not noticeable at all. Don't get it. Bloodrazor is the standard AD item against hp stacking.. but you're not AD, you're jungle.
Bladeorade
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1898 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-24 20:57:16
May 24 2012 20:55 GMT
#43
On May 25 2012 05:35 storkfan wrote:
how about going back to the basics and using bt+pd for damage? i mean that is what does the most damage for the least money

I usually get BT as my 3rd Item but IE + PD combo with solo lane farm is easy enough. However BT+PD can be good, I just prefer IE.

On May 25 2012 05:39 greggy wrote:
This applies to jungle kayle only.
I actually toyed with fast stinger+vamp instead of full on wriggles on kayle since she wants both AS and cdr but the fact that you can't build the stinger into anything worthwhile kinda ruins that. I don't build wriggles anyway and go for zekes instead.


Malady is shockingly bad. Like, it's damage increase is not noticeable at all. Don't get it. Bloodrazor is the standard AD item against hp stacking.. but you're not AD, you're jungle.

Fast stinger sounds pretty meh, 10% CDR isn't much and the stinger is useless. If you want AS better off buying getting WIts or Zeal or a BC if you want to get tanky after damage. BC is imo the best BFS item out of jungle as it is the cheapest, gives you AS and AD as well as an armor shred so your damage spikes up when you get it, just falls off later.

Zekes is probably a good option on jungle Kayle. Haven't tried it.

Also no one builds MBR on any AD carry. It's just not a good item. If you are going full AD then IE/PD/LW/BT/GA/QSS is pretty much nonnegotiable. People just change up the order they get them.
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
May 24 2012 21:00 GMT
#44
It might be because i spend so much time ganking middle, but i notice malady more than any other item when i play jungle kayle.
greggy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom1483 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-24 21:53:10
May 24 2012 21:52 GMT
#45
On May 25 2012 05:55 Bladeorade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 05:35 storkfan wrote:
how about going back to the basics and using bt+pd for damage? i mean that is what does the most damage for the least money

I usually get BT as my 3rd Item but IE + PD combo with solo lane farm is easy enough. However BT+PD can be good, I just prefer IE.

Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 05:39 greggy wrote:
This applies to jungle kayle only.
I actually toyed with fast stinger+vamp instead of full on wriggles on kayle since she wants both AS and cdr but the fact that you can't build the stinger into anything worthwhile kinda ruins that. I don't build wriggles anyway and go for zekes instead.


Malady is shockingly bad. Like, it's damage increase is not noticeable at all. Don't get it. Bloodrazor is the standard AD item against hp stacking.. but you're not AD, you're jungle.

Fast stinger sounds pretty meh, 10% CDR isn't much and the stinger is useless. If you want AS better off buying getting WIts or Zeal or a BC if you want to get tanky after damage. BC is imo the best BFS item out of jungle as it is the cheapest, gives you AS and AD as well as an armor shred so your damage spikes up when you get it, just falls off later.

Zekes is probably a good option on jungle Kayle. Haven't tried it.

Also no one builds MBR on any AD carry. It's just not a good item. If you are going full AD then IE/PD/LW/BT/GA/QSS is pretty much nonnegotiable. People just change up the order they get them.


Stinger is kinda ok in that it builds out of cheap stuff and gives a pretty decent dps boost in the jungle. It's just that that gold would be better spent on recurve bow for wits. In fact rushing recurve bow is my current build of choice on jungle kayle.
Soloside
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1238 Posts
May 26 2012 02:26 GMT
#46
been doing 2x dblades + zekes + nashors + zerkers into big ad items and doing pretty well @ ~2k

100% uptime on E es OP.
LoL: Taylor Swift | King Kayle
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
June 04 2012 01:33 GMT
#47
So I used to think E added 40% of AD in damage towards your intended target. Now that I know that's not true I've been trying to stack attack speed to make use of the 60 on hit damage. I do much more damage compared to when I used to go phage first. Kayle has much more fighting ability. Still not enough IMO to fight the big bruisers like olaf toe to toe, but enough to punish them during your ult.

Wit's end, Phantom Dancer. Perhaps Madreds would be better than PDancer since I get IE so late.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Bladeorade
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1898 Posts
June 04 2012 02:10 GMT
#48
On June 04 2012 10:33 obesechicken13 wrote:
So I used to think E added 40% of AD in damage towards your intended target. Now that I know that's not true I've been trying to stack attack speed to make use of the 60 on hit damage. I do much more damage compared to when I used to go phage first. Kayle has much more fighting ability. Still not enough IMO to fight the big bruisers like olaf toe to toe, but enough to punish them during your ult.

Wit's end, Phantom Dancer. Perhaps Madreds would be better than PDancer since I get IE so late.

Sigh...

On hit/Attack Speed Kayle does a ton less damage then AD Kayle. Perhaps you cannot fight olaf toe to toe when building on hit, but AD Kayle certainly can. Your Q already allows you to kite and as long as you dodge Olaf's axes when he ults he has no chance to ever kill you. Not to mention your build makes no sense. Wits End -> PD? Why would you ever do that :/

I really think people are stuck in the past in regards to Kayle. Try out full AD like the build i describe in the OP.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
June 04 2012 02:36 GMT
#49
On June 04 2012 11:10 Bladeorade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2012 10:33 obesechicken13 wrote:
So I used to think E added 40% of AD in damage towards your intended target. Now that I know that's not true I've been trying to stack attack speed to make use of the 60 on hit damage. I do much more damage compared to when I used to go phage first. Kayle has much more fighting ability. Still not enough IMO to fight the big bruisers like olaf toe to toe, but enough to punish them during your ult.

Wit's end, Phantom Dancer. Perhaps Madreds would be better than PDancer since I get IE so late.

Sigh...

On hit/Attack Speed Kayle does a ton less damage then AD Kayle. Perhaps you cannot fight olaf toe to toe when building on hit, but AD Kayle certainly can. Your Q already allows you to kite and as long as you dodge Olaf's axes when he ults he has no chance to ever kill you. Not to mention your build makes no sense. Wits End -> PD? Why would you ever do that :/

I really think people are stuck in the past in regards to Kayle. Try out full AD like the build i describe in the OP.

You're so dismissive to every one of my posts.

I do try full AD kayle. It was one of the first things I tried. I like it, and I like adding some slow to it, but I feel like getting the aspd earlier is pretty big too.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-04 04:34:43
June 04 2012 04:34 GMT
#50
On June 04 2012 11:10 Bladeorade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2012 10:33 obesechicken13 wrote:
So I used to think E added 40% of AD in damage towards your intended target. Now that I know that's not true I've been trying to stack attack speed to make use of the 60 on hit damage. I do much more damage compared to when I used to go phage first. Kayle has much more fighting ability. Still not enough IMO to fight the big bruisers like olaf toe to toe, but enough to punish them during your ult.

Wit's end, Phantom Dancer. Perhaps Madreds would be better than PDancer since I get IE so late.

Sigh...

On hit/Attack Speed Kayle does a ton less damage then AD Kayle. Perhaps you cannot fight olaf toe to toe when building on hit, but AD Kayle certainly can. Your Q already allows you to kite and as long as you dodge Olaf's axes when he ults he has no chance to ever kill you. Not to mention your build makes no sense. Wits End -> PD? Why would you ever do that :/

I really think people are stuck in the past in regards to Kayle. Try out full AD like the build i describe in the OP.

You're so dismissive to every one of my posts.

I do try full AD kayle. It was one of the first things I tried. I like it, and I like adding some slow to it, but I feel like getting the aspd earlier is pretty big too.

Kayle's dps can be defined in a simple formula. Obviously it's not the only thing that's important, but since I like to not get hit at all by bruisers in top lane, it's sometimes useful to just bring them down as fast as possible.

Aspd * (physical_attack_damage + onhit_magic_damage)
Physical_attack_damage = (((base_damage_+rune_damage+item_damage)*crit_chance)*crit_damage+((base_damage_+rune_damage+item_damage)*(1-crit_chance)))
Base_damage = damage_at_level_0+levels*damage_increase
onhit_magic_damage=E_damage+on_hit_items_damage

This is just a listing of a bunch of variable but it's useful when trying to determine points where kayle does more damage with on hit than with AD.

It pretty apparent that kayle with
wits end, greaves, and 2 dblades has the same dps as one with
phantom dancer, greaves, and 2 dblades
for 700 less gold, and has up to 48 more mr to survive a mage's burst in the midgame.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ekUM_l-4IzQm8xNTZpalN0WjA

I'm not saying AD kayle isn't stronger late game. Just that on hit kayle has her strengths. One that shouldn't be overlooked is that most of her damage is magic.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14104 Posts
June 04 2012 04:41 GMT
#51
IE/PD/LW/BT/GA/QSS

Infinity edge phantom dancer and bloodthirster I get but what are the other items there?

I've been getting roaming boots instead of as boots starting out and I'm really likeing the speed control I get rolling into other lanes.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
June 04 2012 04:45 GMT
#52
On June 04 2012 13:41 Sermokala wrote:
IE/PD/LW/BT/GA/QSS

Infinity edge phantom dancer and bloodthirster I get but what are the other items there?

I've been getting roaming boots instead of as boots starting out and I'm really likeing the speed control I get rolling into other lanes.

LW = last whisper
GA = guardian angel
QSS = quicksilver sash


I also like roam boots. The best item in the game.
Until about today I liked GA too. After all it is the best item in the game.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Bladeorade
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1898 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-04 05:03:45
June 04 2012 05:02 GMT
#53
On June 04 2012 13:34 obesechicken13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2012 11:10 Bladeorade wrote:
On June 04 2012 10:33 obesechicken13 wrote:
So I used to think E added 40% of AD in damage towards your intended target. Now that I know that's not true I've been trying to stack attack speed to make use of the 60 on hit damage. I do much more damage compared to when I used to go phage first. Kayle has much more fighting ability. Still not enough IMO to fight the big bruisers like olaf toe to toe, but enough to punish them during your ult.

Wit's end, Phantom Dancer. Perhaps Madreds would be better than PDancer since I get IE so late.

Sigh...

On hit/Attack Speed Kayle does a ton less damage then AD Kayle. Perhaps you cannot fight olaf toe to toe when building on hit, but AD Kayle certainly can. Your Q already allows you to kite and as long as you dodge Olaf's axes when he ults he has no chance to ever kill you. Not to mention your build makes no sense. Wits End -> PD? Why would you ever do that :/

I really think people are stuck in the past in regards to Kayle. Try out full AD like the build i describe in the OP.

You're so dismissive to every one of my posts.

I do try full AD kayle. It was one of the first things I tried. I like it, and I like adding some slow to it, but I feel like getting the aspd earlier is pretty big too.

Kayle's dps can be defined in a simple formula. Obviously it's not the only thing that's important, but since I like to not get hit at all by bruisers in top lane, it's sometimes useful to just bring them down as fast as possible.

Aspd * (physical_attack_damage + onhit_magic_damage)
Physical_attack_damage = (((base_damage_+rune_damage+item_damage)*crit_chance)*crit_damage+((base_damage_+rune_damage+item_damage)*(1-crit_chance)))
Base_damage = damage_at_level_0+levels*damage_increase
onhit_magic_damage=E_damage+on_hit_items_damage

This is just a listing of a bunch of variable but it's useful when trying to determine points where kayle does more damage with on hit than with AD.

It pretty apparent that kayle with
wits end, greaves, and 2 dblades has the same dps as one with
phantom dancer, greaves, and 2 dblades
for 700 less gold, and has up to 48 more mr to survive a mage's burst in the midgame.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ekUM_l-4IzQm8xNTZpalN0WjA

I'm not saying AD kayle isn't stronger late game. Just that on hit kayle has her strengths. One that shouldn't be overlooked is that most of her damage is magic.

Ah... In the AD build you dont rush PD.

Zerkers 2 dblades wits vs zerkers 2 dblades BF sword + 500g

I'm not saying that On hit kayle is awful. Just that it is subpar at almost every point in the game but the very beginning item. Most of her damage being magic is irrelevant. All of tristanas damage is magic, all of kogs damage is magic, however this is completely irrelevant to how you build them. I mean I can see the reasoning behind OH/AS Kayle, and I am aware it can work. I just am of the opinion not only are you severely gimping your late game, you are doing it for no gain.

This is why I am dismissive. I have played OH/AS Kayle before I switched to full AD. Once I switched to AD I never looked back. It is just so much stronger overall there is no reason to do OH/AS Kayle other than to have fun. Please explain to me the reasoning why you would want to go OH/AS over AD. What are the advantages? What are the disadvantages? I feel like I am explaining myself thoroughly as to why AD is better, but in response I do not get as thorough answers or arguments against things I never claimed.


Also thought I should clarify that when I say I am being dismissive I am just using your words, I am not completely dismissing OH/AS Kayle nor trying to be rude. Sorry if it comes off that way.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
June 09 2012 16:09 GMT
#54
How are people building Kayle from the jungle? It doesn't seem like there's going to be enough gold available for AD-carry builds to be viable.

It feels like a Cleaver as a core dps item would be good for it, since you don't have to commit as much to your offensive kit. Beyond that, phage and

Thinking:
Dorans
Greaves
Cleaver
Phage (can be gotten before cleaver)
Whatever

I mean, I guess you can get an IE if you get really fed... but it feels like otherwise you'd be putzing around without your core for too long.

Avarice seems not awful either, ghostblade isn't bad. (Or does it no longer extend duration when you have your E on?) The CDR helps you keep E up in addition to the stats being pretty decent for you.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14104 Posts
June 09 2012 16:28 GMT
#55
On June 10 2012 01:09 sylverfyre wrote:
How are people building Kayle from the jungle? It doesn't seem like there's going to be enough gold available for AD-carry builds to be viable.

It feels like a Cleaver as a core dps item would be good for it, since you don't have to commit as much to your offensive kit. Beyond that, phage and

Thinking:
Dorans
Greaves
Cleaver
Phage (can be gotten before cleaver)
Whatever

I mean, I guess you can get an IE if you get really fed... but it feels like otherwise you'd be putzing around without your core for too long.

Avarice seems not awful either, ghostblade isn't bad. (Or does it no longer extend duration when you have your E on?) The CDR helps you keep E up in addition to the stats being pretty decent for you.


Its the same thing as udyr except with a little more ap and cdr like a nashors. kayle's passive and q can shut down and shred the enemy tank while being able to build pure damage and influence the entire battlefield with her splash her heal and her q nuke. She can make herself invincible or the carry invisible for a few seconds with her ults and she has complete speed control allowing for early jungle and ganks being non reliant on boots and midgame tower dives being commonplace and easy to pull off. she can farm quickly and easy with a ton of speed and clearing power in the mid-lategame to help catch up along with some gp10 items. boots of swiftness and her heal speed buff makes her come out of the jungle like a bullet train and make melee champs look downright impotent and ranged champs feel squishy.

She lacks the hard cc of the top shelf gankers and is kicking ass on the top lane currently so people don't jungle her.

But yeah ghostblade works when her e is on and is a fantastic item to develope to after an early brutalizer avarice blade and a philo stone for gp10 while you grind to an ie and a pd. However I'm LOVEING a nashors in a lane that I know I'm going to do well in early and want to keep my advantage the whole lane phase long.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-09 17:39:28
June 09 2012 17:38 GMT
#56
So I just played against a riven. I went teleport this time and most of the time riven just stayed on her side. Whenever she engaged I would react horribly (q'ing minions) but I'd still come out winning the trade with minions, kiting, and my ult. I ended up getting an assist? early on at blue and then dying under my tower to a gank but getting riven for it. In lane I just kept trying to damage riven, waiting for her to back off, and then pushing the lane to tower. Once that was done, Id go in the brush and tp bot. I think that was helpful.

The main thing was that teleport allowed me to do things when I got to the "ok... so I've pushed the lane up to tower... now what do I do" stage. Went malady first because I didn't want to spend time finding ionic spark, didn't want to rush razors, and wit's didn't protect against riven's physical damage.

The magic damage was nice too. The enemy amumu stacked armor and our ap mid was a xerath whose lane opponent fizz got quite fed. Therefore I was the only one who could kill mumu early to mid game.


Ghostblade's duration does not extend for attacks that are caused by her E. Instead you can activate ghostblade, autoattack twice in melee range, and then activate kayle's E but then you'll have attacked twice in melee range.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Bladeorade
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1898 Posts
June 09 2012 20:16 GMT
#57
What level are you playing at?

Under "what to do" when pushed to tower you should including diving as Kayle. It's really easy to poke and secure kills when they are under tower. If you really want to do this Malady build you should consider sorc boots.

I really don't understand what you have against AD Kayle lol.

Do not buy boots of swiftness on Kayle, Ghostblade does not extend duration with her E on.

That build you said you do out of jungle is exactly what I recommended earlier in this thread. Zerkers - 2 dorans - Cleaver - Phage. Cleaver is the best BFS item out of jungle as it costs the least and you get more bang for your buck faster. You just will not scale as well into late game.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
June 09 2012 20:19 GMT
#58
On June 10 2012 05:16 Bladeorade wrote:
What level are you playing at?

Under "what to do" when pushed to tower you should including diving as Kayle. It's really easy to poke and secure kills when they are under tower. If you really want to do this Malady build you should consider sorc boots.

I really don't understand what you have against AD Kayle lol.

Do not buy boots of swiftness on Kayle, Ghostblade does not extend duration with her E on.

That build you said you do out of jungle is exactly what I recommended earlier in this thread. Zerkers - 2 dorans - Cleaver - Phage. Cleaver is the best BFS item out of jungle as it costs the least and you get more bang for your buck faster. You just will not scale as well into late game.

Pretty low level.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Bladeorade
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1898 Posts
June 09 2012 20:34 GMT
#59
http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/live#lol

Dyrus playing Kayle top vs Shen right now
HughMyron
Profile Joined April 2012
297 Posts
June 10 2012 08:54 GMT
#60
I play Kayle with some frequency (1500s, Solo Top, so I'm not that great), and I know I might get some flak for this, but I run a sorta weird setup.

AD Marks (obvious)
Flat Armor Seal (obvious)
AS Glyph (compensate for Kayle's low IAS)
Movespeed Quint (help kite and dodge skillshots huehue)

For builds, I go 2xDBlade/Zerkers, and after that it usually depends. Against annoying dudes like Vlad I'll go for a fast Bloodthirster before PD. I usually go Zeal, then IE/PD/GA or QSS or LW/etc.
Platinum III, Kayle/Janna/Ashe Fanboy, HUEHUEHUE
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