* Divine Blessing: o Heal amount increased to 60/105/150/195/240 from 45/85/125/165/205. o Movement speed increased to 18/21/24/27/30% from 15/17/19/21/23%. o Movement speed duration increased to 3 seconds from 2.5. o Mana cost increased to 60/70/80/90/100 from 60/65/70/75/80.
V1.0.0.124:
* Stats: o Attack damage per level increased to 2.8 from 2.5. o Attack speed per level increased to 2.5% from 2.0%. * Reckoning: o Now scales with 100% of Kayle's bonus attack damage in addition to a 1.0 ability power ratio. o Damage amplification increased to 6/7/8/9/10% from 5% at all ranks.
V1.0.0.123:
* Holy Fervor: o Armor and magic resistance reduction per stack increased to 3% from 2%. o Fixed a bug where it was only reducing the target's base armor and magic resistance rather than the total armor and magic resistance. * Fixed minor tooltip errors.
V1.0.0.122:
* General o New model and animations! o Community contest "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" /dance animation o Attack damage per level reduced to 2.5 from 3 o Attack speed per level reduced to 2 from 2.3 o Recommended items updated * Holy Fervor o New Passive: Kayle's basic attacks against enemy champions now reduce their armor and magic resistance by 2% for 5 seconds (stacks up to 5 times) * Reckoning o Missile speed increased to 1300 from 1000 o Ability power ratio increased to 1.0 from 0.8 o Mana cost reduced to 70/75/80/85/90 from 80/85/90/95/100 o Slow increased to 35% from 25% o Damage amplification reduced to 5% from 8/10/12/14/16% * Righteous Fury o Cooldown reduced to 16 seconds from 22/21/20/19/18 seconds o Bonus damage increased to 20/30/40/50/60 from 4/10/16/22/28 o Increased splash range to 300 from 200 o Ability power ratio decreased to .2 to .3 o Mana cost reduced to 45 from 65 * Divine Blessing o Base heal adjusted to 45/85/125/165/205 from 65/100/135/170/205 o Movement speed duration reduced to 2.5 seconds from 10 seconds o Movement speed boost increased to 15/17/19/21/23% from 12% o Ability power ratio reduced to .35 from .5 o Cooldown increased to 15 seconds from 10 seconds
V1.0.0.116:
* Fixed a display issue with Kayle's Battleborn skin.
V1.0.0.106:
* Kayle now counts as a ranged attacker while using Righteous Fury.
V1.0.0.100:
* Reckoning: debuff and death recap tooltips have been corrected.
V1.0.0.97:
* Righteous Fury: tooltip adjusted to indicate the buff duration and attack range increase. * Divine Blessing: o Movement speed bonus reduced to a flat 12% from 10/12/14/16/18%. o Mana cost increased to 60/65/70/75/80 from 50/55/60/65/70. o Ability power ratio reduced to 0.5 from 0.6.
V1.0.0.96:
* Divine Blessing movement speed bonus reduced to 10/12/14/16/18% from 12/14/16/18/20%. * Righteous Fury splash damage no longer affects turrets.
V1.0.0.94(b):
* Intervention: o Cooldown reduced to 90/75/60 from 150/120/90. o Duration reduced to 2/2.5/3 from 3/4/5.
V1.0.0.94:
* Divine Blessing heal reduced to 65/100/135/170/205 from 65/105/145/185/225. * Righteous Fury: o Ability power ratio reduced to 0.3 from 0.35. o Base damage reduced to 4/10/16/22/28 from 8/14/20/26/32. * Intervention cooldown increased to 120/105/90 from 90 at all ranks.
V1.0.0.87:
* Stats: o Base damage reduced to 56.3 from 60.3. o Base health reduced to 501 from 526. o Health per level reduced to 93 from 98. o Base attack speed slightly increased. o Base armor reduced to 21 from 27. o Armor per level reduced to 3.5 from 4. o Magic resistance per level increased to 0.75 from 0. o Mana regen per level increased to 0.065 from 0.06. o Attack speed per level increased to 2.3 from 1.85. o Normalized her attack timing between alternate attacks. o Attack range increased to 125 from 100. * Updated recommended items. * Updated playing as and against tips. * Holy Fervor (New Innate): 30% of Kayle's attack damage is added to her ability power and 15% of Kayle's ability power is added to her attack damage. * Reckoning: o Damage reduce to 60/110/160/210/260 from 80/135/190/245/300. o Ability Power ratio reduced to 0.8 from 1.0. o While the target is slowed, Kayle inflicts 8/10/12/14/16% increased damage to the target. o It no longer interacts with Holy Fervor. o Removed the attack speed debuff component. * Divine Blessing: o Healing increased to 65/105/145/185/225 from 60/95/130/165/200. o Movement speed increased to 12/14/16/18/20% from 8/10/12/14/16%. o Duration reduced to 10 seconds from 20. o Cooldown reduced to 10 seconds from 15. o Mana cost increased to 50/55/60/65/70 from 40/45/50/55/60. * Righteous Fury: o Range increased by 50. o It now deals the bonus damage as a separate magic damage source to her target. For nearby units, the splash damage is now magic damage. o Base bonus damage increased to 8/14/20/26/32 from 6/12/18/24/30. o Cooldown reduced to 22/21/20/19/18 seconds from 25 seconds. o Mana cost reduced to 65 from 75. * Intervention: o Cooldown increased to 90 at all ranks from 90/75/60. o Cast range reduced to 1200 from 1300.
V1.0.0.63:
* Righteous Fury now triggers spell cast effects (such as Sheen and Tear of the Goddess).
V1.0.0.61:
* Attack speed per level increased to 1.65 from 1.5. * Holy Fervor (reworked passive): when Kayle kills an enemy champion or an allied champion dies near her, she goes into a state of Holy Fervor, increasing her attack speed by 25%. This effect can stack 4 times. * Reckoning: additional damage while Holy Fervor is active now accounts for damage dealt from ability power. * Intervention: o Cooldown increased to 90/75/60 from 75/60/45. o Duration decreased to 3/4/5 seconds from 4/5/6.
V0.9.25.34:
* New sounds for all of her spells. * Fixed tooltip for Righteous Fury.
V0.9.25.24:
* Righteous Fury: o Adjusted values to be 6/12/18/24/30 damage with 20/25/30/35/40% cleave. o Now instant cast. * Intervention: o Increased cast range from 800 to 1300. o Increased invulnerability duration from 4 to 4/5/6. o Modified mana cost from 80 to 100/75/50. o Increased cooldown from 60/50/40 to 75/60/45. * Holy Fervor: o Name changed to Vengeance. o Increased attack speed bonus per stack from 20% to 25%. * Reckoning: o Now deals a bonus 25% damage if Vengeance is active. * Divine Blessing: o Increased heal from 60/90/120/150/180 to 60/95/130/165/200. * Updated recommended items.
V0.9.25.21: (Light Remake)
* Reckoning: Strikes a target dealing damage and slowing its movement speed and attack speed for 4 seconds. o The movement speed reduction is now 20-30% down from 20%-40%. o Removed the stun and double damage component after an ally dies. * Divine Blessing: Blesses a target allied Champion, healing them and increasing their movement speed for 20 seconds. o Changed the heal over time into a direct heal. * Righteous Fury: Ignites Kayle's sword with a holy flame, granting Kayle a ranged splash attack. o Removed the bonus damage, and lowered the duration of the spell. * Intervention (Ultimate): Bathes Kayle’s target in a holy light, rendering them immune to all damage for 4 seconds. o The cooldown was increased, but it can now be cast upon allies. * Passive – Holy Fervor: Kayle and nearby allied champions attack 10% faster. If an allied champion dies while under the effects of Holy Fervor, Kayle's Attack Speed is further increased as she attempts to avenge them.
V0.9.22.16:
* Reckoning damage modified to 80/140/200/260/320 from 90/150/210/265/325.
V0.9.22.15:
* Increased Movement Speed to 310 from 300. * Reckoning damage increased from 65/130/195/260/325 to 90/150/210/265/325. * Changed Spell Icons.
V0.8.22.115:
* Righteous Fury Ability Power ratio reduced from .5 to .35.
Health 418 (+93) Attack damage 53.3 (+2.8) Health regen. 7.0 (+0.75) Attack speed 0.638 (+2.5%) Mana 255 (+40) Armor 17 (+3.5) Mana regen. 6.9 (+0.525) Magic res. 30 (+0.75) Range 125 Mov. speed 310
Abilities:
Passive - Holy Fervor: Kayle's autoattacks against enemy champions reduces their armor and magic resistance by 3% for 5 seconds. This debuff stacks up to 5 times.
A rather boring passive but nonetheless a decent shred. 15% at max stacks
Q - Reckoning: Blasts a target, dealing magic damage and slowing its movement speed by 35% for 4 seconds. While the target is slowed, Kayle inflicts more damage to the target. Damage increase applies to summoner spells and items used by Kayle.
Magic Damage: 60 / 110 / 160 / 210 / 260 (+1.0 per ability power) (+1.0 per bonus attack damage)
Damage Amplification: 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10%
Decent range slow that increases your damage and scales 1:1 with both AP and AD. This spell is what really allows Kayle to shine top lane, allows her to easily kite the bruisers while dealing increased damage all while being a powerful nuke.
W - Divine Blessing: Blesses a target allied champion, healing them and increasing their movement speed for 3 seconds.
A long range weak heal, primary use is really for the increased MS for easier kiting.
E - Righteous Fury: Kayle harnesses her righteous fury to increase her attack range by 400 (to 525) for 10 seconds. These attacks splash, dealing additional magic damage to her target and nearby units take a percent of her attack damage plus magic damage. Splash and magic damage won't proc when attacking a tower directly.
* Cost: 45 mana * Cooldown: 16 seconds * Radius of Splash AoE: 300 Magic Damage: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+0.2 per ability power)
What makes Kayle, Kayle. Makes your auto attacks range and deal increased magic damage as well as splashing magic damage that scales with AD. Pretty damn strong.
R - Intervention: Kayle bathes a target ally champion (or herself) in holy light, rendering them immune to all damage for a few seconds.
* Range: 1200 Cost: 100 / 75 / 50 mana
Cooldown: 90 / 75 / 60 seconds
Duration: 2 / 2.5 / 3 seconds
The other part of what makes Kayle, Kayle (just dont try to bubble hearth.) Really strong ultimate that a lot of people tend to use poorly. It is best to use this at the beginning of fights when that initial burst is going out because that is when EVERYONE blows every cooldown and usually on 1 person. Using this to keep someone at 75%+ is way better than keeping someone alive at 10%. Try to recognize who the target of burst is and get this on them asap. It has long ass range so it is good for saving. Intervention also does not stop CC.
Guides:
Top Lane Kayle:
Summoners: I take flash/ignite, Kayle really is a lane bully and ignite can pick up those early kills that really snowball your lane. Alternatively you could take exhaust or teleport but I don't think exhaust is necessary for fighting anyone, and teleport would likely cause you to miss out on kills but able to support your team in dragon fights more easily. Obviously up to personal preference.
Masteries: 21-8-1 is what I run, straight down the AD tree, reduced minion damage armor and HP5 in Def and reduced Flash cool down in utility.
I know Rincent runs some bizarre 19-11-1 set up that I have tried and personally dislike, he takes the - 2 dmg in Def and goes down the AD tree as far as 19 takes you. I don't find 11 in Def to be necessary but it works out for him so you should judge it yourself.
Runes: I run Flat AD Reds and Quints, flat armor yellows and MR level Blues. AS reds or quints could also make sense but I like the extra bit of nuke on Q and little extra damage on E. Also allows for easier last hitting.
Skill Order: E-Q-Q-W-Q-R: R>Q>E>W
E first to help jungler and to get level 2 before your lane opponent, once you hit 2 Q your enemy, turn on E and go to town. Q max is a bigger nuke, while being magic damage that scales with AD. Some people like to max E first, I find it to be less damage but more pushing power and by the time fights start you will have Q and E maxed or close to it anyway. W just for move speed, and don't W too much will run you oom. With Q on people you can chase/kite easily. W more for escapes or tower diving.
Starting Items: + x3
Pretty much non negotiable. I don't really know what else you would want to start with. Boots let you kite more easily, you don't need cloth to build anything and you shouldn't be taking damage, Dblade start doesn't let you kite as well and is more risky for not much gain. Just start boots + 3
Core Items: + +
These should be your first purchases. I usually go 2 dblades then Zerkers but it doesnt matter the order really as long as you get them.
+
Your "real" core, allows you to become a 2nd AD carry. Dishing out crazy single target and AoE Damage.
Late Game Options: - I generally like to get a BT next, give you good lifesteal and more AD for more damage overall. Kayle also farms crazy easy so it is not hard to get stacks up.
- Kayle is great cleanup and is a good target to focus, GA combined with her ult and a BT for lifesteal makes her very difficult to kill.
- For those teams who CC you till you die (can't ult while CC'd) QSS is irreplaceable. Also good vs certain champs top in particular like Warwick or if Mordekaiser is mid etc.
After Zerkers, IE, PD, BT and GA or QSS are finished, you have a good amount of last items to choose from, though this situation will be very rare.
- Not "great" on kayle because of her mixed damage but still awesome for single target DPS and should be bought anyway if enemies stack armor like crazy. It does mesh well with your 15% passive shred and the 10% you get from masteries. I forget how these percentages work exactly. I know its multiplicative not additive I just forget how to do the math, you still get crazy good Armor reduc (someone do the math for me xD.) Now that I have said all of this it sounds like LW could be incredible for tank shredding on Kayle..I haven't gotten to play much with 6th items but next time I do I will definitely be getting this.
- Just great all around item, strong 6th slot, extra kiting (because you really need that,) more damage (that too,) and more crit and MS (yay,) just really solid overall.
- More lifesteal, some vamp, another nuke that slows and a good amount of AD and AP. Not as good on Kayle as it used to be (obviously,) and this is not a hybrid Kayle build (which I do not think are good builds,) but it is still very cost efficient and as a 6th item you can do worse.
Top Lane Playstyle: At level 1 just farm with E off unless they are being aggressive. Push the lane slightly so you hit 2 before them, but not so much you are vulnerable to a level 2 gank. Also be aware of who the enemy jungler is etc. May not be a good idea to do this vs Lee Sin or Shaco.
When you hit level 2, immediately take Q and try to hit the enemy with it. Did you hit them? Turn on E and fight them till they run while kiting and or chasing. Are they running before Q range? Keep E off and zone them while last hitting. Kayle is a lane bully, bully your lane.
Rinse and repeat this. You will always slowly push your wave as Kayle, it is literally impossible not to. It is important that you have good ward coverage for yourself. More important than buying a BF Sword. I always keep Blue buff exit/entrance near baron warded, and tribush. Always keep these warded and you will always be safe. Exceptions are if you see enemy jungler bot lane or headed bot, if you see this, Kayle is a good counter jungler. Go take wolves/doublegols/wraiths or a buff if you can. However be aware of where your own lane and mid are, chances are if you head into jungle and they go MIA, that entrance is warded so you should gtfo.
Once you hit level 6 you can tower dive! Yay! How to do this as Kayle: Turn E on and push the wave to tower. Make sure enemy jungler is not coming to gank you (be aware, if you notice this is important.) Harass your lane opponent with Q and E on while they are under tower while not taking tower hits. If they don't CS then just turn E on and hit tower. The splash animation happens but it doesn't actually do damage when you hit towers so you won't draw aggro this way.
If they come to CS and you harass them below like 75%, W yourself, Q them, turn E on, ignite and Intervention yourself early. Do not wait to use intervention. Try to time it as the tower shot is hitting you to maximize damage reduction. You get 2 seconds to take 0 damage, make them count. This should generate a kill pretty much every time.
Tell your jungler easy ganks and dives top, your Q is awesome gank assistance and you can always use intervention on your jungler if they tank the turret. I very often get camped top lane because Kayle is so strong. Be sure to tell your team when the jungler is top (remember you are aware and have ward coverage.) This can lead to free Dragons and often times your mid and Jungler can come counter gank top leading to more kills. This all stems from being aware!
If you are facing a strong ganker like a Lee Sin or Shaco, it is better to farm until you can buy a Dblade and 2 wards before going balls deep. You need that ward coverage.
If you have an AP that doesn't need blue or want for some reason, speak up! CDR is super good on Kayle. More E uptime, more Q up time, shorter R cool down.
I have jungled Kayle a few times so I may add that in at some point but I really think she is strongest top lane and she definitely needs that farm.
As a side note: Don't play support Kayle.
This is my first guide on TL I hope it is comprehensive enough I did my best.
On May 03 2012 15:04 Bladeorade wrote: - Not "great" on kayle because of her mixed damage but still awesome for single target DPS and should be bought anyway if enemies stack armor like crazy. It does mesh well with your 15% passive shred and the 10% you get from masteries. I forget how these percentages work exactly. I know its multiplicative not additive I just forget how to do the math, you still get crazy good Armor reduc (someone do the math for me xD.) Now that I have said all of this it sounds like LW could be incredible for tank shredding on Kayle..I haven't gotten to play much with 6th items but next time I do I will definitely be getting this.
The short version is that in this case multiplicative means less armour reduction than you would get if it were additive. Because of the sequence in which armour changes are calculated, it is flat armour penetration (NOT reduction) that benefits most from being combined with Kayle's passive. That means things like The Brutaliser and ArPen runes. Of course, Last Whisper will still give you more overall reduction against any target with a significant amount of armour.
- More lifesteal, some vamp, another nuke that slows and a good amount of AD and AP. Not as good on Kayle as it used to be (obviously,) and this is not a hybrid Kayle build (which I do not think are good builds,) but it is still very cost efficient and as a 6th item you can do worse.
Unless you're absolutely desperate for the active slow, you would almost certainly be better off building a Bloodthirster instead. Getting spell vamp just for Kayle's Q is not worthwhile.
On May 03 2012 15:23 Terranasaur wrote: Real good. I've been seeing a lot of Kayle top this week and the old thread was real old and poor.
How married are you to the AD build? Have you tried the Wits -> GRB -> Gunblade build?
Well I really think she is a poor hybrid. The old one worked best when she got AD from AP and AP from AD because they scaled with each other. Now she is kind of weird. I mean her AP scaling on Q is good but her heal sucks and the damage on E scales better with AD. I have played her hybrid before and it felt super crappy. If I was going to I would probably get Malady not wits.
She just scales better with AD, does more damage with AD at all stages of the game, and her abilities that scale with AP, also scale just as well or better with AD. I seen no reason to ever go hybrid ever again.
On May 03 2012 15:04 Bladeorade wrote: - Not "great" on kayle because of her mixed damage but still awesome for single target DPS and should be bought anyway if enemies stack armor like crazy. It does mesh well with your 15% passive shred and the 10% you get from masteries. I forget how these percentages work exactly. I know its multiplicative not additive I just forget how to do the math, you still get crazy good Armor reduc (someone do the math for me xD.) Now that I have said all of this it sounds like LW could be incredible for tank shredding on Kayle..I haven't gotten to play much with 6th items but next time I do I will definitely be getting this.
The short version is that in this case multiplicative means less armour reduction than you would get if it were additive. Because of the sequence in which armour changes are calculated, it is flat armour penetration (NOT reduction) that benefits most from being combined with Kayle's passive. That means things like The Brutaliser and ArPen runes. Of course, Last Whisper will still give you more overall reduction against any target with a significant amount of armour.
- More lifesteal, some vamp, another nuke that slows and a good amount of AD and AP. Not as good on Kayle as it used to be (obviously,) and this is not a hybrid Kayle build (which I do not think are good builds,) but it is still very cost efficient and as a 6th item you can do worse.
Unless you're absolutely desperate for the active slow, you would almost certainly be better off building a Bloodthirster instead. Getting spell vamp just for Kayle's Q is not worthwhile.
Thats why I said 6th item. The spell vamp is less important on gunblade as the 110 damage you get on Q (though I guess a stacked BT is another 100) and the 300 damage nuke. Also does the AoE on E not benefit from spell vamp?
I wouldn't build 2 blood thirsters on Kayle. I'd rather get LW.
Summoners: Smite and Ghost. I (57 corvette) Prefer running ghost over flash on Kayle simply for chasing power in the mid/lategame. You could use flash if you feel the need for a quick getaway over a wall, but W+R+Ghost makes you pretty damn slippery.
Masteries: 21/9/0. This gives you enough tankiness in the early jungle to survive and clear easily while still dealing great damage and being able to carry lategame. Master both ghost and smite, relevant AD masteries in offense and standard jungle defense.
Runes: Attack speed reds, Flat Armour seals, CDR Glyphs and Aspeed or AD quints. If you don't have enough Aspeed reds, fill in the missing space with flat AD. Attackspeed is important on kayle, as the more attacks you can get off while your E is on, the more relevant you are in fights.
Skill Order: E,W,E,Q,E,R and then R > E > W = Q EWEQ is for the standard level 4 gank with double buff. If you are planning on a level 2 gank, EQWE is better overall, although you won't have your heal/speedboost for the gank. Later in the game W or Q first is personal preference. I level W over Q because the higher movespeed lets me chase easier, and other than damage + amplification, leveling Q doesn't bring much more to the table.Like I said though, personal preference.
Items: + x3 Standard jungle opening, if you get a good leash on blue you may not need to use health potions until second time wolves.
+ Two core items, the wriggles is obviously a staple item on all junglers, and the beserkers greaves are there because Kayle + attack speed = good
+ OR + As with lane Kayle, you want to work towards those big AD carry items, IE and PD. It will take you a little while longer to get them out of the jungle, but you should be able to get them in time to stay relevant. Your other option is to go for a slighly tankier build, grabbing a Phage and a Wits end. This will bring you less damage overall, but it will give you more on-hit damage and a slowing attack that makes it even easier to chase down opponents
Lategame items will depend on which route you take. If you are playing the balls-to-the-wall AD carry kayle, the items listed in the Lane section fit perfectly. However, if you are going Tanky AD Onhit Kayle, you want to finish your frozen mallet, and then build items depending on the opponents. Atmas impaler is a good option, as you will have a lot of health from the Fmallet, as well as Maw of Malmortis is the opponent AP is fed.
Jungle Route:
(This video was made in the Lulu patch, and opened cloth + 5, with the buffs to Kayle's W, you can open boots+3 and have the same results)
Start at Wolves, get a little damage from allies. Try to finish the camp before your E wears off. Bluebuff, Get a leash and smite it like normal. Wraiths Wolves again Red Wraiths Gank
This route completely ignores doublegolems, you can choose to take them instead of wolves again, but they hit harder than the wolves and I cannot guarantee you will be able to finish the route at high enough health to gank.
Ganking:
You want to lead with your Q on the person you are chasing, Turn on your E and use your W to speed up either you or your ally (if they have a stun). Move between attacks do you can be sure that you are still in range for your next attack. If you are level 6, don't be afraid to towerdive to finish off the opponent. Your ult can stop 1-2 turret shots, so calculate your chances of surviving before you dive.
I always started boots 3 with no issues even before the buff to W. I mean W barely got buffed I really don't think that changed much.
I don't think it is realistic to be going for IE/PD out of the jungle unless you get super fed really early. I usually go for wriggles -> black cleaver in the jungle as it is cheaper and provides more stats you need faster.
A question about her E, is the damage I'm doing to the enemy I'm targeting (not the ones being hit by the aoe) getting effected by life steal or spell vamp?
Righteous Fury procs spell vamp and Rylai's slow similarly with all area of effect spells and abilities with diminished effect. Righteous Fury will proc on-hit effects such as lifesteal and Frozen Mallet's slow on Kayle's main target only, not on any target hit by the splash damage.
For RF the 60 extra magic damage on your target and the 40% splash damage around it both benefit from spell vamp. The physical part of your attack on your target benefits from life steal.
I've always had trouble playing anything but on-hit Kayle. All of the attack speed she gets from items like Wits and Malady just make so much sense when combined with her E for faster farming and killing. Granted an item like IE is good for almost any physical champ, but the journey getting there feels really slow and weaker than just piling more on-hit items on Kayle.
On May 04 2012 23:28 Jojo131 wrote: I've always had trouble playing anything but on-hit Kayle. All of the attack speed she gets from items like Wits and Malady just make so much sense when combined with her E for faster farming and killing. Granted an item like IE is good for almost any physical champ, but the journey getting there feels really slow and weaker than just piling more on-hit items on Kayle.
I dont know how you find on hit kayle to be anything but garbage. Her E isn't that much bonus damage and on hit barely adds any. The best part of E is the range increase and the 40%ad damage on an aoe not the .2 scaling scaling extra magic damage. not to mention ignoring the 1.0 scaling on her Q. Ad makes you strong early and scale late. On hit falls off horribly. Obviously do what you want but I dont think out is even a question which build is stronger at every point in the game.
Shouldn't black cleaver be in your core items regardless of whether your building AD or on-hit Kayle? If anything its better than Lastwhisper when you account for the AS and Kayle's passive right?
On May 05 2012 03:11 Ghost-z wrote: Shouldn't black cleaver be in your core items regardless of whether your building AD or on-hit Kayle? If anything its better than Lastwhisper when you account for the AS and Kayle's passive right?
I think black cleaver is a pretty poor item in general. What do you build after bC? BC first is probably Stronger until you finish zeal. But I can't see it even competing after. So you get a little more power early, which tbh Kayle does not need as she is incredibly strong early, at the expense of power later and you delay IE by a shit ton. At 3 items I I'd rather have ie pd and bt . However I think BC is the best option out of the jungle as it is easier to obtain and helps you stay relevant in mid game team fights, but for top lane where you get good farm I think IE -> PD -> BT is undeniably the best route to take.
Edited for typos posted from my phone initially
Lets compare the build paths assuming berserker and 2 dorans blades before a big item:
a Black cleaver is 2865 gold for 55ad 30% as and 15 armor reduction x3 hits
at this point in the IE build you will have a BF sword and a Pickaxe for 70 AD with ~200g left over
at 3830 gold you get IE for 80 AD, 25% crit and 250% crit dmg
I am unsure as to what the next item in the build path for Black Cleaver is but lets assume Zeal, so you have crit gloves and a dagger.
Now lets go to where we have IE and Zeal at 5025 gold.You have 80 AD, 35% crit chance, 20% AS, 8% MS, 250% crit damage
vs.
55 AD, 10% crit, 50% AS, 8% MS, 15 armor reduction x3 and 965 gold extra to spend. Probably on a crit cloak to finish PD so you may have 28% crit chance.
Tradeoffs of 25 AD, 7% crit, 30% AS, 50% crit damage and max of 45 armor reduction.
On May 05 2012 00:50 phyvo wrote: Consider that Kog Maw has a much stronger on hit steroid and still builds 100% full AD. Teemo is a troll, that's why he gets away with it.
Not a good comparison at all. Kog's range is 500 by default, and the longest in the game at max level BAB. He also gets to lane bottom with a support, which affords him other 'safeties' that Kayle must do without. Kog can also build 100% AP, essentially ignoring his steroid; pretty silly to make any judgements between the two.
I'm not saying that means Kayle should or should not build carry or on-hit, but a comparison to Kog does nothing, especially a comparison that takes no consideration for the rest of the champion kits as a whole.
Perhaps I made it seem like I covered every base with my statement and that AD is the only possible build, but in the context of the discussion my statement is pretty sound. You bringing up AP Kog at all confuses me terribly because I don't know WTF it has to do with onhit VS AD.
The poster I replied to was implying that he did more damage with on hit items compared to AD items. This is pretty much impossible. As I said, even on Kog Maw you prefer AD for DPS, despite his stronger steroid. Therefore, if Kog Maw (who has the stronger damage steroid) prefers AD builds for DPS, Kayle should too, because the main thing onhit builds lack is more damage per hit. Q.E.D.
This does not take into account any sort of tanky DPS build you might have in mind (which can't possibly be all on hit items since they leave you really squishy past Wit's End), nor does it have anything to do with any other aspect of the champions' kits or roles or whether AD is the only good build possible. What it does say is that if you want to do lots of damage you build AD, not on-hit items. That's all.
The problem with full ad kayle is that you only do damage for 10 seconds (in an ideal world) and then do nothing for 6 seconds. You need at least some cdr to mitigate that beyond what you get from runes/masteries. I also don't feel like kayle really belongs in top lane - maybe I'm biased towards my usual toplaners but I think that with ganks as strong as hers it's kinda a shame not to jungle her instead.
On May 06 2012 19:02 zulu_nation8 wrote: kayle shits on everyone omg
Except most assassin type champs and fags like teemo and yorick. She's mainly just good vs bruisers cause she can kite them really hard, similar to vayne and corki top lane.
On May 06 2012 19:16 greggy wrote: The problem with full ad kayle is that you only do damage for 10 seconds (in an ideal world) and then do nothing for 6 seconds. You need at least some cdr to mitigate that beyond what you get from runes/masteries. I also don't feel like kayle really belongs in top lane - maybe I'm biased towards my usual toplaners but I think that with ganks as strong as hers it's kinda a shame not to jungle her instead.
On May 06 2012 19:16 greggy wrote: The problem with full ad kayle is that you only do damage for 10 seconds (in an ideal world) and then do nothing for 6 seconds. You need at least some cdr to mitigate that beyond what you get from runes/masteries. I also don't feel like kayle really belongs in top lane - maybe I'm biased towards my usual toplaners but I think that with ganks as strong as hers it's kinda a shame not to jungle her instead.
She scales incredibly well with farm. Her ganks aren't that amazing just pretty good. And ten seconds is plenty of time not to mention you are still able to so damage with e off believe it or not
Isn't the idea behind cleaver to abuse your shredding power and make nobody have any armor? It's not about YOUR damage, it's about your carry's damage + your own + maybe your jungler. Also you have more freedom to build tanky items if needed after cleaver compared to IE, because you have a balance of damage stats bundled up into a smaller package. You aren't going balls out carry with IE PD being your first 8k gold anyway.
I guess think of cleaver as an aura item, and kayle is a good carrier for it.
On May 06 2012 19:16 greggy wrote: The problem with full ad kayle is that you only do damage for 10 seconds (in an ideal world) and then do nothing for 6 seconds. You need at least some cdr to mitigate that beyond what you get from runes/masteries. I also don't feel like kayle really belongs in top lane - maybe I'm biased towards my usual toplaners but I think that with ganks as strong as hers it's kinda a shame not to jungle her instead.
I think I agree with you. Ever since I found out kayle's main target doesn't take %of AD magic damage, I just don't know if I should play her top anymore. Before this she was my goto top.
She pushes lane hard. Kayle is weakest as her E is about to expire. No one seems to know this I know 60 damage is a lot but it’s not that great She can’t always be ranged Her escapes from people with jump stuns isn’t great as far as AD carries go
She has decent AoE damage but being able to use it is hard except in super late game teamfights where everyone is 5v5 She has an ult that is still useful even if she's doing poorly in a specific game (ult the fed tryn) She can help against an ally's getting caught Her slow lets her disengage On Black Cleaver. I've never done the damage calculations on cleaver. But again, I'm doubtful of how effectively my allies will be able to use it by targeting the same enemies
I've always gotten Malady/bloodrazer on Kayle instead of Cleaver or AD ect. But i jungle with her, so a cheap item + an item that builds from madreds is a really good combination for her.
On May 06 2012 19:16 greggy wrote: The problem with full ad kayle is that you only do damage for 10 seconds (in an ideal world) and then do nothing for 6 seconds. You need at least some cdr to mitigate that beyond what you get from runes/masteries. I also don't feel like kayle really belongs in top lane - maybe I'm biased towards my usual toplaners but I think that with ganks as strong as hers it's kinda a shame not to jungle her instead.
I think I agree with you. Ever since I found out kayle's main target doesn't take %of AD magic damage, I just don't know if I should play her top anymore. Before this she was my goto top.
She pushes lane hard. Kayle is weakest as her E is about to expire. No one seems to know this I know 60 damage is a lot but it’s not that great She can’t always be ranged Her escapes from people with jump stuns isn’t great as far as AD carries go
She has decent AoE damage but being able to use it is hard except in super late game teamfights where everyone is 5v5 She has an ult that is still useful even if she's doing poorly in a specific game (ult the fed tryn) She can help against an ally's getting caught Her slow lets her disengage On Black Cleaver. I've never done the damage calculations on cleaver. But again, I'm doubtful of how effectively my allies will be able to use it by targeting the same enemies
60 Damage is not that great? How much of a steroid do you want... Not to mention the extra % you get from Q Her not always being ranged is not that bad. Makes people underestimate her when you are meleeing them, and she is ranged for long enough. Ah she isn't your teams true AD Carry so if the enemy team is jumping on you, your other AD carry is fucking them up.
Also MBR/Malady Kayle is awful... If your going on hit go Wriggles/Wits/Phage/BC in some order
As a jungler, Wriggles, Wits, Phage and BC make much more sense for minimal effort and cost which is the reason for it, not to mention you will be more tanky and do more damage so i have no idea why you would want to do Malady/MBR
Because comparing 4625 in expenses is equivalent to 6930. (taking off the 1k for the implied madred razer buy in both builds) especially when that 2300 difference can buy a wits end or a phage and almost a giants belt.
You don;t understand what I meant, you have those 4 items do choose from and can build 3 of them in place of Malady/MBR and any combination of the 3 will have you doing more damage and be tankier than malady/mbr. Not to mention you say "minimal effort and cost" which is completely untrue in both cases. Perhaps Malady is cheap but until you complete it you are sitting on crap and with MBR you are spending a ton of money.
I wouldn't even build Wriggles on jungle Kayle that was an example. 2 Dorans -> Cleaver is much better for jungle Kayle imo. So while you go Razor -> Malady I go 2 dorans BF Sword and while you finish MBR I get Cleaver and Phage and have an extra 500g to start whatever item I want, while doing more damage, while being tankier, while having better ganks and having just as fast of a clear speed.
Whats the advantage on Malady/MBR?
This is assuming jungle Kayle which I really dislike as she performs much better top.
This applies to jungle kayle only. I actually toyed with fast stinger+vamp instead of full on wriggles on kayle since she wants both AS and cdr but the fact that you can't build the stinger into anything worthwhile kinda ruins that. I don't build wriggles anyway and go for zekes instead.
Malady is shockingly bad. Like, it's damage increase is not noticeable at all. Don't get it. Bloodrazor is the standard AD item against hp stacking.. but you're not AD, you're jungle.
On May 25 2012 05:35 storkfan wrote: how about going back to the basics and using bt+pd for damage? i mean that is what does the most damage for the least money
I usually get BT as my 3rd Item but IE + PD combo with solo lane farm is easy enough. However BT+PD can be good, I just prefer IE.
On May 25 2012 05:39 greggy wrote: This applies to jungle kayle only. I actually toyed with fast stinger+vamp instead of full on wriggles on kayle since she wants both AS and cdr but the fact that you can't build the stinger into anything worthwhile kinda ruins that. I don't build wriggles anyway and go for zekes instead.
Malady is shockingly bad. Like, it's damage increase is not noticeable at all. Don't get it. Bloodrazor is the standard AD item against hp stacking.. but you're not AD, you're jungle.
Fast stinger sounds pretty meh, 10% CDR isn't much and the stinger is useless. If you want AS better off buying getting WIts or Zeal or a BC if you want to get tanky after damage. BC is imo the best BFS item out of jungle as it is the cheapest, gives you AS and AD as well as an armor shred so your damage spikes up when you get it, just falls off later.
Zekes is probably a good option on jungle Kayle. Haven't tried it.
Also no one builds MBR on any AD carry. It's just not a good item. If you are going full AD then IE/PD/LW/BT/GA/QSS is pretty much nonnegotiable. People just change up the order they get them.
On May 25 2012 05:35 storkfan wrote: how about going back to the basics and using bt+pd for damage? i mean that is what does the most damage for the least money
I usually get BT as my 3rd Item but IE + PD combo with solo lane farm is easy enough. However BT+PD can be good, I just prefer IE.
On May 25 2012 05:39 greggy wrote: This applies to jungle kayle only. I actually toyed with fast stinger+vamp instead of full on wriggles on kayle since she wants both AS and cdr but the fact that you can't build the stinger into anything worthwhile kinda ruins that. I don't build wriggles anyway and go for zekes instead.
Malady is shockingly bad. Like, it's damage increase is not noticeable at all. Don't get it. Bloodrazor is the standard AD item against hp stacking.. but you're not AD, you're jungle.
Fast stinger sounds pretty meh, 10% CDR isn't much and the stinger is useless. If you want AS better off buying getting WIts or Zeal or a BC if you want to get tanky after damage. BC is imo the best BFS item out of jungle as it is the cheapest, gives you AS and AD as well as an armor shred so your damage spikes up when you get it, just falls off later.
Zekes is probably a good option on jungle Kayle. Haven't tried it.
Also no one builds MBR on any AD carry. It's just not a good item. If you are going full AD then IE/PD/LW/BT/GA/QSS is pretty much nonnegotiable. People just change up the order they get them.
Stinger is kinda ok in that it builds out of cheap stuff and gives a pretty decent dps boost in the jungle. It's just that that gold would be better spent on recurve bow for wits. In fact rushing recurve bow is my current build of choice on jungle kayle.
So I used to think E added 40% of AD in damage towards your intended target. Now that I know that's not true I've been trying to stack attack speed to make use of the 60 on hit damage. I do much more damage compared to when I used to go phage first. Kayle has much more fighting ability. Still not enough IMO to fight the big bruisers like olaf toe to toe, but enough to punish them during your ult.
Wit's end, Phantom Dancer. Perhaps Madreds would be better than PDancer since I get IE so late.
On June 04 2012 10:33 obesechicken13 wrote: So I used to think E added 40% of AD in damage towards your intended target. Now that I know that's not true I've been trying to stack attack speed to make use of the 60 on hit damage. I do much more damage compared to when I used to go phage first. Kayle has much more fighting ability. Still not enough IMO to fight the big bruisers like olaf toe to toe, but enough to punish them during your ult.
Wit's end, Phantom Dancer. Perhaps Madreds would be better than PDancer since I get IE so late.
Sigh...
On hit/Attack Speed Kayle does a ton less damage then AD Kayle. Perhaps you cannot fight olaf toe to toe when building on hit, but AD Kayle certainly can. Your Q already allows you to kite and as long as you dodge Olaf's axes when he ults he has no chance to ever kill you. Not to mention your build makes no sense. Wits End -> PD? Why would you ever do that :/
I really think people are stuck in the past in regards to Kayle. Try out full AD like the build i describe in the OP.
On June 04 2012 10:33 obesechicken13 wrote: So I used to think E added 40% of AD in damage towards your intended target. Now that I know that's not true I've been trying to stack attack speed to make use of the 60 on hit damage. I do much more damage compared to when I used to go phage first. Kayle has much more fighting ability. Still not enough IMO to fight the big bruisers like olaf toe to toe, but enough to punish them during your ult.
Wit's end, Phantom Dancer. Perhaps Madreds would be better than PDancer since I get IE so late.
Sigh...
On hit/Attack Speed Kayle does a ton less damage then AD Kayle. Perhaps you cannot fight olaf toe to toe when building on hit, but AD Kayle certainly can. Your Q already allows you to kite and as long as you dodge Olaf's axes when he ults he has no chance to ever kill you. Not to mention your build makes no sense. Wits End -> PD? Why would you ever do that :/
I really think people are stuck in the past in regards to Kayle. Try out full AD like the build i describe in the OP.
You're so dismissive to every one of my posts.
I do try full AD kayle. It was one of the first things I tried. I like it, and I like adding some slow to it, but I feel like getting the aspd earlier is pretty big too.
On June 04 2012 10:33 obesechicken13 wrote: So I used to think E added 40% of AD in damage towards your intended target. Now that I know that's not true I've been trying to stack attack speed to make use of the 60 on hit damage. I do much more damage compared to when I used to go phage first. Kayle has much more fighting ability. Still not enough IMO to fight the big bruisers like olaf toe to toe, but enough to punish them during your ult.
Wit's end, Phantom Dancer. Perhaps Madreds would be better than PDancer since I get IE so late.
Sigh...
On hit/Attack Speed Kayle does a ton less damage then AD Kayle. Perhaps you cannot fight olaf toe to toe when building on hit, but AD Kayle certainly can. Your Q already allows you to kite and as long as you dodge Olaf's axes when he ults he has no chance to ever kill you. Not to mention your build makes no sense. Wits End -> PD? Why would you ever do that :/
I really think people are stuck in the past in regards to Kayle. Try out full AD like the build i describe in the OP.
You're so dismissive to every one of my posts.
I do try full AD kayle. It was one of the first things I tried. I like it, and I like adding some slow to it, but I feel like getting the aspd earlier is pretty big too.
Kayle's dps can be defined in a simple formula. Obviously it's not the only thing that's important, but since I like to not get hit at all by bruisers in top lane, it's sometimes useful to just bring them down as fast as possible.
This is just a listing of a bunch of variable but it's useful when trying to determine points where kayle does more damage with on hit than with AD.
It pretty apparent that kayle with wits end, greaves, and 2 dblades has the same dps as one with phantom dancer, greaves, and 2 dblades for 700 less gold, and has up to 48 more mr to survive a mage's burst in the midgame. https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ekUM_l-4IzQm8xNTZpalN0WjA
I'm not saying AD kayle isn't stronger late game. Just that on hit kayle has her strengths. One that shouldn't be overlooked is that most of her damage is magic.
On June 04 2012 10:33 obesechicken13 wrote: So I used to think E added 40% of AD in damage towards your intended target. Now that I know that's not true I've been trying to stack attack speed to make use of the 60 on hit damage. I do much more damage compared to when I used to go phage first. Kayle has much more fighting ability. Still not enough IMO to fight the big bruisers like olaf toe to toe, but enough to punish them during your ult.
Wit's end, Phantom Dancer. Perhaps Madreds would be better than PDancer since I get IE so late.
Sigh...
On hit/Attack Speed Kayle does a ton less damage then AD Kayle. Perhaps you cannot fight olaf toe to toe when building on hit, but AD Kayle certainly can. Your Q already allows you to kite and as long as you dodge Olaf's axes when he ults he has no chance to ever kill you. Not to mention your build makes no sense. Wits End -> PD? Why would you ever do that :/
I really think people are stuck in the past in regards to Kayle. Try out full AD like the build i describe in the OP.
You're so dismissive to every one of my posts.
I do try full AD kayle. It was one of the first things I tried. I like it, and I like adding some slow to it, but I feel like getting the aspd earlier is pretty big too.
Kayle's dps can be defined in a simple formula. Obviously it's not the only thing that's important, but since I like to not get hit at all by bruisers in top lane, it's sometimes useful to just bring them down as fast as possible.
This is just a listing of a bunch of variable but it's useful when trying to determine points where kayle does more damage with on hit than with AD.
It pretty apparent that kayle with wits end, greaves, and 2 dblades has the same dps as one with phantom dancer, greaves, and 2 dblades for 700 less gold, and has up to 48 more mr to survive a mage's burst in the midgame. https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ekUM_l-4IzQm8xNTZpalN0WjA
I'm not saying AD kayle isn't stronger late game. Just that on hit kayle has her strengths. One that shouldn't be overlooked is that most of her damage is magic.
I'm not saying that On hit kayle is awful. Just that it is subpar at almost every point in the game but the very beginning item. Most of her damage being magic is irrelevant. All of tristanas damage is magic, all of kogs damage is magic, however this is completely irrelevant to how you build them. I mean I can see the reasoning behind OH/AS Kayle, and I am aware it can work. I just am of the opinion not only are you severely gimping your late game, you are doing it for no gain.
This is why I am dismissive. I have played OH/AS Kayle before I switched to full AD. Once I switched to AD I never looked back. It is just so much stronger overall there is no reason to do OH/AS Kayle other than to have fun. Please explain to me the reasoning why you would want to go OH/AS over AD. What are the advantages? What are the disadvantages? I feel like I am explaining myself thoroughly as to why AD is better, but in response I do not get as thorough answers or arguments against things I never claimed.
Also thought I should clarify that when I say I am being dismissive I am just using your words, I am not completely dismissing OH/AS Kayle nor trying to be rude. Sorry if it comes off that way.
How are people building Kayle from the jungle? It doesn't seem like there's going to be enough gold available for AD-carry builds to be viable.
It feels like a Cleaver as a core dps item would be good for it, since you don't have to commit as much to your offensive kit. Beyond that, phage and
Thinking: Dorans Greaves Cleaver Phage (can be gotten before cleaver) Whatever
I mean, I guess you can get an IE if you get really fed... but it feels like otherwise you'd be putzing around without your core for too long.
Avarice seems not awful either, ghostblade isn't bad. (Or does it no longer extend duration when you have your E on?) The CDR helps you keep E up in addition to the stats being pretty decent for you.
On June 10 2012 01:09 sylverfyre wrote: How are people building Kayle from the jungle? It doesn't seem like there's going to be enough gold available for AD-carry builds to be viable.
It feels like a Cleaver as a core dps item would be good for it, since you don't have to commit as much to your offensive kit. Beyond that, phage and
Thinking: Dorans Greaves Cleaver Phage (can be gotten before cleaver) Whatever
I mean, I guess you can get an IE if you get really fed... but it feels like otherwise you'd be putzing around without your core for too long.
Avarice seems not awful either, ghostblade isn't bad. (Or does it no longer extend duration when you have your E on?) The CDR helps you keep E up in addition to the stats being pretty decent for you.
Its the same thing as udyr except with a little more ap and cdr like a nashors. kayle's passive and q can shut down and shred the enemy tank while being able to build pure damage and influence the entire battlefield with her splash her heal and her q nuke. She can make herself invincible or the carry invisible for a few seconds with her ults and she has complete speed control allowing for early jungle and ganks being non reliant on boots and midgame tower dives being commonplace and easy to pull off. she can farm quickly and easy with a ton of speed and clearing power in the mid-lategame to help catch up along with some gp10 items. boots of swiftness and her heal speed buff makes her come out of the jungle like a bullet train and make melee champs look downright impotent and ranged champs feel squishy.
She lacks the hard cc of the top shelf gankers and is kicking ass on the top lane currently so people don't jungle her.
But yeah ghostblade works when her e is on and is a fantastic item to develope to after an early brutalizer avarice blade and a philo stone for gp10 while you grind to an ie and a pd. However I'm LOVEING a nashors in a lane that I know I'm going to do well in early and want to keep my advantage the whole lane phase long.
So I just played against a riven. I went teleport this time and most of the time riven just stayed on her side. Whenever she engaged I would react horribly (q'ing minions) but I'd still come out winning the trade with minions, kiting, and my ult. I ended up getting an assist? early on at blue and then dying under my tower to a gank but getting riven for it. In lane I just kept trying to damage riven, waiting for her to back off, and then pushing the lane to tower. Once that was done, Id go in the brush and tp bot. I think that was helpful.
The main thing was that teleport allowed me to do things when I got to the "ok... so I've pushed the lane up to tower... now what do I do" stage. Went malady first because I didn't want to spend time finding ionic spark, didn't want to rush razors, and wit's didn't protect against riven's physical damage.
The magic damage was nice too. The enemy amumu stacked armor and our ap mid was a xerath whose lane opponent fizz got quite fed. Therefore I was the only one who could kill mumu early to mid game.
Ghostblade's duration does not extend for attacks that are caused by her E. Instead you can activate ghostblade, autoattack twice in melee range, and then activate kayle's E but then you'll have attacked twice in melee range.
Under "what to do" when pushed to tower you should including diving as Kayle. It's really easy to poke and secure kills when they are under tower. If you really want to do this Malady build you should consider sorc boots.
I really don't understand what you have against AD Kayle lol.
Do not buy boots of swiftness on Kayle, Ghostblade does not extend duration with her E on.
That build you said you do out of jungle is exactly what I recommended earlier in this thread. Zerkers - 2 dorans - Cleaver - Phage. Cleaver is the best BFS item out of jungle as it costs the least and you get more bang for your buck faster. You just will not scale as well into late game.
On June 10 2012 05:16 Bladeorade wrote: What level are you playing at?
Under "what to do" when pushed to tower you should including diving as Kayle. It's really easy to poke and secure kills when they are under tower. If you really want to do this Malady build you should consider sorc boots.
I really don't understand what you have against AD Kayle lol.
Do not buy boots of swiftness on Kayle, Ghostblade does not extend duration with her E on.
That build you said you do out of jungle is exactly what I recommended earlier in this thread. Zerkers - 2 dorans - Cleaver - Phage. Cleaver is the best BFS item out of jungle as it costs the least and you get more bang for your buck faster. You just will not scale as well into late game.
I play Kayle with some frequency (1500s, Solo Top, so I'm not that great), and I know I might get some flak for this, but I run a sorta weird setup.
AD Marks (obvious) Flat Armor Seal (obvious) AS Glyph (compensate for Kayle's low IAS) Movespeed Quint (help kite and dodge skillshots huehue)
For builds, I go 2xDBlade/Zerkers, and after that it usually depends. Against annoying dudes like Vlad I'll go for a fast Bloodthirster before PD. I usually go Zeal, then IE/PD/GA or QSS or LW/etc.
What....? You must have simply been against a Darius far below your skill level. Kayle's auto range with e on is 525. Darius's grab is 550 range. Your q is 650 range, but the moment you start to q gives him a split second to move forward to grab you. It's not really kayle's best matchup. It's actually one of her harder ones. It's a very skill based match-up to me so can go either way.
On June 11 2012 00:41 Morphx2 wrote: I tried Kayle top against a Darius
so easy and you outrange his grab
Ah Darius v Kayle is a really hard match up for Kayle. Sure your ult can counter his pretty well, but he doesnt even need his ult to kill you. It's like Kayle vs Pantheon but more difficult. You can only harass with Q, if you ever try to auto him you are in grab range. If he grabs you, you are now slowed and have to run your ass off. Very mana intensive matchup for Kayle which is not good because Darius doesnt use mana until he has to chain ulti's.
On June 10 2012 17:54 HughMyron wrote: I play Kayle with some frequency (1500s, Solo Top, so I'm not that great), and I know I might get some flak for this, but I run a sorta weird setup.
AD Marks (obvious) Flat Armor Seal (obvious) AS Glyph (compensate for Kayle's low IAS) Movespeed Quint (help kite and dodge skillshots huehue)
For builds, I go 2xDBlade/Zerkers, and after that it usually depends. Against annoying dudes like Vlad I'll go for a fast Bloodthirster before PD. I usually go Zeal, then IE/PD/GA or QSS or LW/etc.
Vlad is a really easy matchup. He is so weak early just start E and zone him level 1. Your ult completely negates any damage from his ult and if he doesnt troll pool your Q he cant escape without flash.
dyrus going wits end into phantom dancer thats so interesting trying to use his ap splash as long as he possible can while its relevant until he gets maybe an ie to go into lategame so he has that meaty damage and good crit amounts?
Kayles ult just has so much tactical value its incredible no one used her professionally before recently. noct, kennen morgana karthus can just dive straight into the enemy team and just be alright until the hyper carry (either full ad kayle or kog or the ad bot) gets focused so much and can win the fight in 3 seconds.
Edit: Yeah wits end phantom dancer into bt and probably an ie after that. ap damage into ad damage when ad becomes better then ap. remember kayle is in the cheapest teir of champ in lol.
On June 04 2012 13:34 obesechicken13 wrote: It pretty apparent that kayle with wits end, greaves, and 2 dblades has the same dps as one with phantom dancer, greaves, and 2 dblades for 700 less gold, and has up to 48 more mr to survive a mage's burst in the midgame. https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9ekUM_l-4IzQm8xNTZpalN0WjA
I'm not saying AD kayle isn't stronger late game. Just that on hit kayle has her strengths. One that shouldn't be overlooked is that most of her damage is magic.
So, in other words, Wit's > PD without considering any other big items or unique effects. We all know wit's end is the most undercosted awesome OP piece of gear in the game but that doesn't really mean "onhit" kayle has certain strengths over AD kayle. Most of Kayle's damage is magic early on but building onhit doesn't do anything to scale that damage, and her ratios are terrible for actual AP stacking (Q has 1.0 AD AND AP scaling, everything else is crap).
I only really build onhit Kayle in the jungle because it require less gold all around. With solo lane farm AD is just better
the reason why kayle is doing so good is because of her basic ability to bully out the jungler type solo tops. nerfing her damage isn't going to change that. a bunch of solo tops do just fine and I don't think she'll be nerfed.
On June 11 2012 09:50 Sermokala wrote: the reason why kayle is doing so good is because of her basic ability to bully out the jungler type solo tops. nerfing her damage isn't going to change that. a bunch of solo tops do just fine and I don't think she'll be nerfed.
dyrus doesn't even play kayle that well/correctly imo.
Man, i had no idea that kayle had the potential to be that good, and people are saying dyrus isn't even playing her that well. I wonder how much better kayle can be played before she is nerfed and or figured out (if she is nerfed ofc) Also at the lowest price point, riot will be seeing increased sales after this.
On June 11 2012 13:25 Jaaaaasper wrote: Man, i had no idea that kayle had the potential to be that good, and people are saying dyrus isn't even playing her that well. I wonder how much better kayle can be played before she is nerfed and or figured out (if she is nerfed ofc) Also at the lowest price point, riot will be seeing increased sales after this.
nobody gives kayle enough love. still uber underplayed at high elo imo.
So is it better off trying to build her AD or proc build? The item setup I've been running as Solotop has been: 1 d. blade, greaves, wriggles, BC, Triforce, Zeke's. Seems alright I guess. Maybe throw in a Ghostblade or something, not sure.
edit: Also first time sitting down and actually watching competitive LoL play (I can play this but watching is such a bore), but really happy at the amount of Kayle usage over the weekend.
Though AD kayle has proven to be the best, I think Hextech gunblade first is still the superior choice in build. 2dblade->bilgewater->gunblade, just seems almost too good not to use on kayle. It probably offers more dmg with kayle, along with more utility. Maybe gunblade instead of BT? So IE+PD+Gblade+LW new core kayle items?
On June 12 2012 03:01 wei2coolman wrote: Though AD kayle has proven to be the best, I think Hextech gunblade first is still the superior choice in build. 2dblade->bilgewater->gunblade, just seems almost too good not to use on kayle. It probably offers more dmg with kayle, along with more utility. Maybe gunblade instead of BT? So IE+PD+Gblade+LW new core kayle items?
Kayle only gets 60*.2 = 12 damage from gunblade's AP on her E with every swing and also 60*1 = 60 damage on her Q
With just pure AD, she can get (pickaxe and amp tome as standards)(60/20*420/975*25=35) 35 damage on her E and 35 on her Q for the same price as the 60 AP on gunblade. So in twoone swings of her E(no crit change), the AD breaks even. I agree gunblade has a great active that helps her out a lot in lane, but once you leave lane, I'd just rather have either AD or on hit damage as the 300 from gunblade becomes insignificant so it's not correct to say "offers more damage with kayle".
I can't argue with the utility of gunblade though, and I can't say it's wrong to build her like that.
Kayle is just such a strong champion. Wits end was only bought by Dyrus because he was against a Vladimir and there was another strong mid AP champion. So it provided lots of quality stats. All other items are also based on the game and progression of the game. If you watched Dyrus top he built his high tier items in different orders almost every game.
Also the only thing that is really OP in my opinion about Kayler is her ult. Level 6 tower dives with a good jungler is ridiculous. You can abuse the crap out of her ult tower diving after tower diving after tower diving every single time it's up. And that allows you to snowball. Sure her earlygame before 6 is fairly good too. But it isn't good enough that you can't lane against her. And junglers can cause lots of problems for her pre-6.
If anything is going to be nerfed I'd think it's her ulti time because like I was saying it literally means even right at lvl 6 you aren't safe under your turret. Even if you have 80% health. And that is why Kayle is so strong.
What do people think about Kayle vs. Olaf? Early on I got kinda messed up by one because his Axe moves stupidly fast. I didn't really know what to do so I just bought lots of wards, maxed E and shoved the wave. I ended with 150 cs in 20 min, which is ok I guess.
On June 11 2012 13:25 Jaaaaasper wrote: Man, i had no idea that kayle had the potential to be that good, and people are saying dyrus isn't even playing her that well. I wonder how much better kayle can be played before she is nerfed and or figured out (if she is nerfed ofc) Also at the lowest price point, riot will be seeing increased sales after this.
Dyrus played her okay. He had some awful ults and his laning phases seemed kind of meh but he did okay.
She won't get nerfed and she is pretty straight forward so not much to figure out.
On June 12 2012 08:14 Berailfor wrote: Kayle is just such a strong champion. Wits end was only bought by Dyrus because he was against a Vladimir and there was another strong mid AP champion. So it provided lots of quality stats. All other items are also based on the game and progression of the game. If you watched Dyrus top he built his high tier items in different orders almost every game.
Also the only thing that is really OP in my opinion about Kayler is her ult. Level 6 tower dives with a good jungler is ridiculous. You can abuse the crap out of her ult tower diving after tower diving after tower diving every single time it's up. And that allows you to snowball. Sure her earlygame before 6 is fairly good too. But it isn't good enough that you can't lane against her. And junglers can cause lots of problems for her pre-6.
If anything is going to be nerfed I'd think it's her ulti time because like I was saying it literally means even right at lvl 6 you aren't safe under your turret. Even if you have 80% health. And that is why Kayle is so strong.
I didn't like Dryus' Wriggles, 2 dblades, cleaver build. Was pretty crap and he did practically no damage that game. When he went BT -> PD it worked better for him (I think he went 2 dblades zerkers vamp BT ->PD)
Her ult isn't OP, your opponents just need to play with it in mind. Her early game is more powerful than her ult so I disagree with you there. Against the popular top champions it IS good enough you can't lane against her. The jungler bit applies to every top laner in the game. If your getting camped your own team has an advantage everywhere else, and Kayle is great in small skirmishes so if your jungler counter ganks it can turn into a double kill.
Her ulti time shouldn't get nerfed IMO. It is also not the reason she is so strong, I went over why I think she is.
On June 12 2012 14:45 HughMyron wrote: What do people think about Kayle vs. Olaf? Early on I got kinda messed up by one because his Axe moves stupidly fast. I didn't really know what to do so I just bought lots of wards, maxed E and shoved the wave. I ended with 150 cs in 20 min, which is ok I guess.
Kayle should wreck Olaf. Don't get hit by an axe, period. Harass the hell out of him early and if he ever hits an axe Q him and run away. You need to dodge the axes. They don't move that fast but if he hits 1 and is able to chain axes and true damage you will die. Just deny him early and then you can 1v1 him later. You can even get a kill before 6.
On June 12 2012 14:45 HughMyron wrote: What do people think about Kayle vs. Olaf? Early on I got kinda messed up by one because his Axe moves stupidly fast. I didn't really know what to do so I just bought lots of wards, maxed E and shoved the wave. I ended with 150 cs in 20 min, which is ok I guess.
Kayle's advantage but its a total farm farm fest. You can't really kill Olaf if he's playing right and Olaf certainly can't kill you, but you can CS way easier.
You should be able to zone Olaf early, if you can get him off the creeps keeping him off is easy. Just gotta keep those wards up. I'd consider boots 1 pot and a ward vs Olaf.
Watching Dyrus do really well as Kayle was totally awesome, because my friend always gives me flak about playing her. He said she was too weak up top XD
What do you do in Kayle vs. Kennen? You can't really be aggressive against him, it's just too easy for him to derp you with Q/W/E, so I just max E and shove wave to tower over and over. I still eat some autoattack harass and crap sometimes tho, Kennen lanes are soooo annoying
When should you (Kayle) go into shove the caster creeps? After killing the melee ones, or before? If I go behind the creepline I sometimes find myself eating harass, but if I were to wait until the melee creeps were dead, I could hide in the caster creeps and use them to dodge Qs.
On June 15 2012 18:43 HughMyron wrote: What do you do in Kayle vs. Kennen? You can't really be aggressive against him, it's just too easy for him to derp you with Q/W/E, so I just max E and shove wave to tower over and over. I still eat some autoattack harass and crap sometimes tho, Kennen lanes are soooo annoying
When should you (Kayle) go into shove the caster creeps? After killing the melee ones, or before? If I go behind the creepline I sometimes find myself eating harass, but if I were to wait until the melee creeps were dead, I could hide in the caster creeps and use them to dodge Qs.
I slow him and attack him with E's since I do more damage. I also stand behind minions to prevent free Q harass. I think the advantage goes to kayle in this matchup. Especially so when you build mr(wits mercs) since he as an AP carry relies on bursting you down.
Maybe I was facing a bad kennen though. I don't know what I'd do if he timed his lightning rush for when my E was down or almost down.
And then there's the fact that even if you can survive his ult, it doesn't mean the rest of your clumped up team can.
Kayle vs. Panth feels impossible. I'm srsly at a loss when i have to lane against that guy. Any tips? Just tried safely poking with my E at low minions until they reach tower/I get a gank, but he just zones me and I get outfarmed.
I just kite him and make sure any chance he has of an engage, I'm near minions. If he engages, dodge what you can of HSS, slow him, and start trading. Once he uses his W, he doesn't have any escapes or gap closers (except Flash) for a while.
On August 04 2012 05:29 jacosajh wrote: I just kite him and make sure any chance he has of an engage, I'm near minions. If he engages, dodge what you can of HSS, slow him, and start trading. Once he uses his W, he doesn't have any escapes or gap closers (except Flash) for a while.
And what happens when he just chucks spears at you all day? His spear toss is longer range than you with E on, and has an extremely short cooldown. He also will be blocking autos from you. It's a pretty bad lane for Kayle. Pantheon doesn't NEED to engage to zone you, you have low base armor and buying more of it is not really part of your core. He can just last hit creeps to charge his passive shield, toss spears at you and walk into bush out of your E range whenever its on.
Pantheon is probably one of Kayle's worst lanes. Pantheon doesn't care about whether he can auto you much in trades, he blocks your first auto, his base MS is much higher than yours, his Q hits like a truck and has a very short CD. HSS is nearly finished by the time the stun releases - "dodging" it doesn't really happen.
Open cloth 5 (turn it into Ninja Tabi. Yeah, you have to give up zerker greaves. deal.) and ideally, a heavy armor runepage. Give up CS early til lane starts pushing and farm as best you can near/under turret. Chug potions and he's forced to respond with mana potions. If you're farming near your turret (better than under it) then he's VERY VERY vulnerable to ganks. You aren't going to out-trade Spear Shot on your own, just chug pots and keep your health up so that when there IS a jungle gank, you aren't forcing your jungler to 1v1 pantheon due to your own low health. (That's a good way to feed a juicy buff to pantheon.) Pantheon's only real escape is to W to your jungler and flash from there. If you land your slow on him, he's going to have a very hard time getting away from a jungler - even one like shyvana with no innate CC.
As long as you aren't dying to him and getting at least a reasonable amount of farm (i'd say like 75-80% of Pantheon's CS) then you're doing fine in your lane - as long as your team doesn't feed him when he goes to ulti gank (make ABSOLUTE sure they know when he's MIA) then you can win, because he drops off BIGTIME in the late game.
On August 04 2012 05:29 jacosajh wrote: I just kite him and make sure any chance he has of an engage, I'm near minions. If he engages, dodge what you can of HSS, slow him, and start trading. Once he uses his W, he doesn't have any escapes or gap closers (except Flash) for a while.
And what happens when he just chucks spears at you all day? His spear toss is longer range than you with E on, and has an extremely short cooldown. He also will be blocking autos from you. It's a pretty bad lane for Kayle. Pantheon doesn't NEED to engage to zone you, you have low base armor and buying more of it is not really part of your core. He can just last hit creeps to charge his passive shield, toss spears at you and walk into bush out of your E range whenever its on.
Pantheon is probably one of Kayle's worst lanes. Pantheon doesn't care about whether he can auto you much in trades, he blocks your first auto, his base MS is much higher than yours, his Q hits like a truck and has a very short CD. HSS is nearly finished by the time the stun releases - "dodging" it doesn't really happen.
Open cloth 5 (turn it into Ninja Tabi. Yeah, you have to give up zerker greaves. deal.) and ideally, a heavy armor runepage. Give up CS early til lane starts pushing and farm as best you can near/under turret. Chug potions and he's forced to respond with mana potions. If you're farming near your turret (better than under it) then he's VERY VERY vulnerable to ganks. You aren't going to out-trade Spear Shot on your own, just chug pots and keep your health up so that when there IS a jungle gank, you aren't forcing your jungler to 1v1 pantheon due to your own low health. (That's a good way to feed a juicy buff to pantheon.) Pantheon's only real escape is to W to your jungler and flash from there. If you land your slow on him, he's going to have a very hard time getting away from a jungler - even one like shyvana with no innate CC.
As long as you aren't dying to him and getting at least a reasonable amount of farm (i'd say like 75-80% of Pantheon's CS) then you're doing fine in your lane - as long as your team doesn't feed him when he goes to ulti gank (make ABSOLUTE sure they know when he's MIA) then you can win, because he drops off BIGTIME in the late game.
I think this is the single greatest misconception about pantheon. It makes a little bit of sense in comparison to kayle, since kayle is effectively a ranged carry, so yeah, one could argue that he doesn't scale as well as her, but he doesn't just drop off the map when he goes into the late game. He has 2 very high-scaling skills on very low cooldown (1.4 of total AD on ss, 2.1 with crit, and 3.6 on 3 ticks of HSS) and enormous long-range mobility. I don't know why this idea of panth just disappearing in the late game still persists, but I suspect it's just due to people just sucking with him more than anything else.
anyways, sorry for going a bit off topic. I will say that panth vs kayle is a pretty shitty matchup for kayle when i've played it. (not that that helps kayle players, but w/e)
On August 04 2012 05:29 jacosajh wrote: I just kite him and make sure any chance he has of an engage, I'm near minions. If he engages, dodge what you can of HSS, slow him, and start trading. Once he uses his W, he doesn't have any escapes or gap closers (except Flash) for a while.
And what happens when he just chucks spears at you all day? His spear toss is longer range than you with E on, and has an extremely short cooldown. He also will be blocking autos from you. It's a pretty bad lane for Kayle. Pantheon doesn't NEED to engage to zone you, you have low base armor and buying more of it is not really part of your core. He can just last hit creeps to charge his passive shield, toss spears at you and walk into bush out of your E range whenever its on.
Pantheon is probably one of Kayle's worst lanes. Pantheon doesn't care about whether he can auto you much in trades, he blocks your first auto, his base MS is much higher than yours, his Q hits like a truck and has a very short CD. HSS is nearly finished by the time the stun releases - "dodging" it doesn't really happen.
Open cloth 5 (turn it into Ninja Tabi. Yeah, you have to give up zerker greaves. deal.) and ideally, a heavy armor runepage. Give up CS early til lane starts pushing and farm as best you can near/under turret. Chug potions and he's forced to respond with mana potions. If you're farming near your turret (better than under it) then he's VERY VERY vulnerable to ganks. You aren't going to out-trade Spear Shot on your own, just chug pots and keep your health up so that when there IS a jungle gank, you aren't forcing your jungler to 1v1 pantheon due to your own low health. (That's a good way to feed a juicy buff to pantheon.) Pantheon's only real escape is to W to your jungler and flash from there. If you land your slow on him, he's going to have a very hard time getting away from a jungler - even one like shyvana with no innate CC.
As long as you aren't dying to him and getting at least a reasonable amount of farm (i'd say like 75-80% of Pantheon's CS) then you're doing fine in your lane - as long as your team doesn't feed him when he goes to ulti gank (make ABSOLUTE sure they know when he's MIA) then you can win, because he drops off BIGTIME in the late game.
I think this is the single greatest misconception about pantheon. It makes a little bit of sense in comparison to kayle, since kayle is effectively a ranged carry, so yeah, one could argue that he doesn't scale as well as her, but he doesn't just drop off the map when he goes into the late game. He has 2 very high-scaling skills on very low cooldown (1.4 of total AD on ss, 2.1 with crit, and 3.6 on 3 ticks of HSS) and enormous long-range mobility. I don't know why this idea of panth just disappearing in the late game still persists, but I suspect it's just due to people just sucking with him more than anything else.
anyways, sorry for going a bit off topic. I will say that panth vs kayle is a pretty shitty matchup for kayle when i've played it. (not that that helps kayle players, but w/e)
Oh, I agree. Pantheon doesn't drop off ridiculously - he just doesn't scale as well as Kayle. If you can keep up with him in farm (even if you're a LITTLE behind) and get your core before the big teamfights start going down, you'll be fine.
I just had another game where two other people called me out for using kayle top again. "Wtf 2 supports?". I guessed they both had the least games played on our game and suprisingly they did. I also guessed one other person on their team was relatively new to ranked compared to the rest of us.
I ended up bullying panth pretty hard. After the game I checked. I don't think my lane opponent played much pantheon. He didn't have panth anywhere else in his match history. Bot and mid gave up a first blood that olympic syncronized swimmers would be jealous of. Mid and jungle kept camping me but I watched the map. Felt like I helped a lot. We won fairly hard. Post game chat : "OMG you guys were so right about how we were going to lose in the pregame chat".
I haven't been playing much Kayle lately since shortly after her resurge Malphite became popular and he tools on her in lane, also people were picking Udyr more often who is just an unmovable cunt unless you get jungler help early to get ahead. And now with Nunu being popular I see very little reason to play Kayle top when so many popular tops just wreck her at the moment. As soon ad Nunu is nerfed/falls out of favor she will be fine as Malphite is pretty much permaban.
On August 04 2012 11:18 Bladeorade wrote: I haven't been playing much Kayle lately since shortly after her resurge Malphite became popular and he tools on her in lane, also people were picking Udyr more often who is just an unmovable cunt unless you get jungler help early to get ahead. And now with Nunu being popular I see very little reason to play Kayle top when so many popular tops just wreck her at the moment. As soon ad Nunu is nerfed/falls out of favor she will be fine as Malphite is pretty much permaban.
Kayle shouldn't mind udyr being an immovable object. Farm farm farm, and soon you become an unstoppable force. With some ward coverage you can just shove him under turret and once you have IE (or earlier, if you feel like it) go ahead and take out the turret. Kayle wins the farm war easily and can keep udyr off of her unless he's gonna flash bearslap you.
On August 04 2012 11:18 Bladeorade wrote: I haven't been playing much Kayle lately since shortly after her resurge Malphite became popular and he tools on her in lane, also people were picking Udyr more often who is just an unmovable cunt unless you get jungler help early to get ahead. And now with Nunu being popular I see very little reason to play Kayle top when so many popular tops just wreck her at the moment. As soon ad Nunu is nerfed/falls out of favor she will be fine as Malphite is pretty much permaban.
Kayle shouldn't mind udyr being an immovable object. Farm farm farm, and soon you become an unstoppable force. With some ward coverage you can just shove him under turret and once you have IE (or earlier, if you feel like it) go ahead and take out the turret. Kayle wins the farm war easily and can keep udyr off of her unless he's gonna flash bearslap you.
Also I feel like max turtle udyr is weak levels 1->9 because he's a half assed tank, 10->13 since he's only maxed one damage skill, or 14->18 because that's the time the AP's and AD's start to overtake him. Udyr is pretty bad when played as a tank since he doesn't get as much tankiness as Galio's W and he doesn't get as much CC as Galio's R. I had this discussion in the udyr thread and I think a lot of people said to try playing udyr as a tanky dps.
On August 04 2012 11:18 Bladeorade wrote: I haven't been playing much Kayle lately since shortly after her resurge Malphite became popular and he tools on her in lane, also people were picking Udyr more often who is just an unmovable cunt unless you get jungler help early to get ahead. And now with Nunu being popular I see very little reason to play Kayle top when so many popular tops just wreck her at the moment. As soon ad Nunu is nerfed/falls out of favor she will be fine as Malphite is pretty much permaban.
Kayle shouldn't mind udyr being an immovable object. Farm farm farm, and soon you become an unstoppable force. With some ward coverage you can just shove him under turret and once you have IE (or earlier, if you feel like it) go ahead and take out the turret. Kayle wins the farm war easily and can keep udyr off of her unless he's gonna flash bearslap you.
Also I feel like max turtle udyr is weak levels 1->9 because he's a half assed tank, 10->13 since he's only maxed one damage skill, or 14->18 because that's the time the AP's and AD's start to overtake him. Udyr is pretty bad when played as a tank since he doesn't get as much tankiness as Galio's W and he doesn't get as much CC as Galio's R. I had this discussion in the udyr thread and I think a lot of people said to try playing udyr as a tanky dps.
Tl;DR, max turtle udyr is bad.
isn't that how you play him top..? as a tanky dps. If you arent maxing turtle good luck winning almost any lane without any reasonable sustain
On August 04 2012 11:18 Bladeorade wrote: I haven't been playing much Kayle lately since shortly after her resurge Malphite became popular and he tools on her in lane, also people were picking Udyr more often who is just an unmovable cunt unless you get jungler help early to get ahead. And now with Nunu being popular I see very little reason to play Kayle top when so many popular tops just wreck her at the moment. As soon ad Nunu is nerfed/falls out of favor she will be fine as Malphite is pretty much permaban.
Kayle shouldn't mind udyr being an immovable object. Farm farm farm, and soon you become an unstoppable force. With some ward coverage you can just shove him under turret and once you have IE (or earlier, if you feel like it) go ahead and take out the turret. Kayle wins the farm war easily and can keep udyr off of her unless he's gonna flash bearslap you.
Also I feel like max turtle udyr is weak levels 1->9 because he's a half assed tank, 10->13 since he's only maxed one damage skill, or 14->18 because that's the time the AP's and AD's start to overtake him. Udyr is pretty bad when played as a tank since he doesn't get as much tankiness as Galio's W and he doesn't get as much CC as Galio's R. I had this discussion in the udyr thread and I think a lot of people said to try playing udyr as a tanky dps.
Tl;DR, max turtle udyr is bad.
isn't that how you play him top..? as a tanky dps. If you arent maxing turtle good luck winning almost any lane without any reasonable sustain
Nah I usually jungle udyr. I try to max tiger and phoenix now. There's a recent guide on solomid that also does jungle udyr with max Q and R http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=30605 I don't feel like he loses much sustain since he clears faster and therefore takes less damage from creeps. I don't see the point in running udyr top if you have to max turtle first.
On August 04 2012 11:18 Bladeorade wrote: I haven't been playing much Kayle lately since shortly after her resurge Malphite became popular and he tools on her in lane, also people were picking Udyr more often who is just an unmovable cunt unless you get jungler help early to get ahead. And now with Nunu being popular I see very little reason to play Kayle top when so many popular tops just wreck her at the moment. As soon ad Nunu is nerfed/falls out of favor she will be fine as Malphite is pretty much permaban.
Kayle shouldn't mind udyr being an immovable object. Farm farm farm, and soon you become an unstoppable force. With some ward coverage you can just shove him under turret and once you have IE (or earlier, if you feel like it) go ahead and take out the turret. Kayle wins the farm war easily and can keep udyr off of her unless he's gonna flash bearslap you.
Also I feel like max turtle udyr is weak levels 1->9 because he's a half assed tank, 10->13 since he's only maxed one damage skill, or 14->18 because that's the time the AP's and AD's start to overtake him. Udyr is pretty bad when played as a tank since he doesn't get as much tankiness as Galio's W and he doesn't get as much CC as Galio's R. I had this discussion in the udyr thread and I think a lot of people said to try playing udyr as a tanky dps.
Tl;DR, max turtle udyr is bad.
isn't that how you play him top..? as a tanky dps. If you arent maxing turtle good luck winning almost any lane without any reasonable sustain
Nah I usually jungle udyr. I try to max tiger and phoenix now. There's a recent guide on solomid that also does jungle udyr with max Q and R http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=30605 I don't feel like he loses much sustain since he clears faster and therefore takes less damage from creeps. I don't see the point in running udyr top if you have to max turtle first.
Okay well i'll gladly discuss this in the udyr thread.
that builds actually peaked my interest and im gonna have to give that a try
On August 04 2012 11:18 Bladeorade wrote: I haven't been playing much Kayle lately since shortly after her resurge Malphite became popular and he tools on her in lane, also people were picking Udyr more often who is just an unmovable cunt unless you get jungler help early to get ahead. And now with Nunu being popular I see very little reason to play Kayle top when so many popular tops just wreck her at the moment. As soon ad Nunu is nerfed/falls out of favor she will be fine as Malphite is pretty much permaban.
Kayle shouldn't mind udyr being an immovable object. Farm farm farm, and soon you become an unstoppable force. With some ward coverage you can just shove him under turret and once you have IE (or earlier, if you feel like it) go ahead and take out the turret. Kayle wins the farm war easily and can keep udyr off of her unless he's gonna flash bearslap you.
Also I feel like max turtle udyr is weak levels 1->9 because he's a half assed tank, 10->13 since he's only maxed one damage skill, or 14->18 because that's the time the AP's and AD's start to overtake him. Udyr is pretty bad when played as a tank since he doesn't get as much tankiness as Galio's W and he doesn't get as much CC as Galio's R. I had this discussion in the udyr thread and I think a lot of people said to try playing udyr as a tanky dps.
Tl;DR, max turtle udyr is bad.
Ah... once udyr gets his wriggles he is completely immovable in lane, the best way to deal with Udyr is to ask for a jungle gank early as you can support it well, udyr likely wont have bear for running, and when he falls behind he is fucked. I dunno how well that tiger+phoenix build would work vs kayle (hint I dont think it would) but this is the Kayle thread
On August 04 2012 07:09 Bladeorade wrote: Don't pick Kayle into Pantheon. Easy as that lol. Pantheon trucks AD carries which is what Kayle is.
Worst case scenario push lane as hard as you can as much as you can and roam. But pantheon's ult fucks that too.
Lol I was dumb and picked Kayle while they still had two picks left. Only had like 3-4 top champs and wanted to have some fun.
Also I see ppl doing this funky all AS build running D-Blade-less Malady/Wit's End/Nashor's etc. While I almost always get Wit's End, I don't know about Malady/Tooth. Rather spend that on a quicker cleaver/IE/Trifoce.
On August 04 2012 07:09 Bladeorade wrote: Don't pick Kayle into Pantheon. Easy as that lol. Pantheon trucks AD carries which is what Kayle is.
Worst case scenario push lane as hard as you can as much as you can and roam. But pantheon's ult fucks that too.
Lol I was dumb and picked Kayle while they still had two picks left. Only had like 3-4 top champs and wanted to have some fun.
Also I see ppl doing this funky all AS build running D-Blade-less Malady/Wit's End/Nashor's etc. While I almost always get Wit's End, I don't know about Malady/Tooth. Rather spend that on a quicker cleaver/IE/Trifoce.
Seem's interesting though.
On Kayle, Wits is... alright. The magic proc doesn't benefit from the crit you're getting, though, which makes it pretty mediocre stat/cost wise unless you really want MR for the laning / midgame phase (A negatron might be better, though. Turn it into a QSS later or something?) You shouldn't be in that much danger of getting bursted out of the water by an AP carry though cause of your ult.
On August 04 2012 07:09 Bladeorade wrote: Don't pick Kayle into Pantheon. Easy as that lol. Pantheon trucks AD carries which is what Kayle is.
Worst case scenario push lane as hard as you can as much as you can and roam. But pantheon's ult fucks that too.
Lol I was dumb and picked Kayle while they still had two picks left. Only had like 3-4 top champs and wanted to have some fun.
Also I see ppl doing this funky all AS build running D-Blade-less Malady/Wit's End/Nashor's etc. While I almost always get Wit's End, I don't know about Malady/Tooth. Rather spend that on a quicker cleaver/IE/Trifoce.
Seem's interesting though.
When I saw Dyrus running Kayle in the last tournament I watched(i cant even remember, gigabyte invitational i think?) he was going like zeal ie pd with 2dblades, or something like that
I think part of this is just me getting better as a player, but I've gone from a 45% win rate to a 60% win rate in ranked as kayle. She's my most played champion and she seems like such a consistently strong top laner and jungler. At least at lower ELOs she seems like a really good bully in top laner, and a decently strong early ganker in the jungle.
I found I was also able to bully people as AD sion top but lost a lot of midgame fights. I've played Jax top but although he has kill potential, I still don't feel safe first picking him and don't feel like I can get free damage on people in engages. I just don't have these problems with Kayle.
In the jungle I prefer twitch's ganks but he can't farm as quickly to keep up in levels so he doesn't get bursted as easily. Also if there are no gankable lanes he can't keep up with the enemy jungler's farm. I prefer udyr and mundo's tankiness but find their ganks lacking. Kayle just provides a lot of what I want.
About to play Udyr vs Kayle from the Udyr side for the first time, lets see how this goes huehue
Well I was fine until Skarner camped top because the enemy bot lane was destroying ours and our jungle Jarvan decided to camp bot but go 0/13 rofl. Oh well happens sometimes
Seriously kayle buff? I have a current 60% win ratio over my entire career as her and probably closer to 65/70 over the last 20 games. Kayle is fine. As is teemo in top lane. I hope this doesn't get her nerfed. They do well in the bruiser top meta.
To break this down, .4 means that every point of AP is equal to .4 AD as long as E is on. Except the AP splashes and deals magic damage which is better than physical damage. The AP does not scale off crit damage or crit strike, or armor pen which kayles build. But with something like triforce kayle will now deal 6 more magic splash damage on each attack. Maybe a gain of 200 gold. Nashors is still bad. Rageblade would also stack more damage. Overall if kayle want's single target magic damage with some tankiness she can go on hit. If she wants squishy aoe magic damage with better spells she should go AP/hybrid. If she wants to scale well in terms of physical damage she should still go AD. The splash damage still scales well off AD. If she wants to support her team of 3/4 autoattackers she can still go bruisery and aura.
1 AD is ~ 2 AP in gold but deathcap makes AP slightly better but by the time deathcap is around crit scaling should have taken place.
This also opens up malady and makes hybrid/ap kayle a much better burster and laner. She's already a big lane bully as it is.
I think there are many ways to play kayle, you just have to be aware of the strengths and weaknesses of each.
Also shame on you for betraying kayle bladeorade!
Also the garen rework changes the matchup a bit. Before the best way for garen to get close if kayle kept brush control was to q at her, then E as soon as he got slowed if he was close enough to catch up on Q's speed boost. Now he can Q as soon as the slow lands. In addition garen's W is imo better (it was a bad skill before this change compared to other tank builds, in fact garen's kit was outdated) and still provides the slow reduction if he uses it before your Q. You want to hit Q on him after he Q's. If he has shield and merc treads the cc reduc is 30% and 35% combined together which is still pretty large. I don't know how this will change the garen kayle matchup but I suspect it won't be the same as it was before.
Since kayle's Q and W still have relic mana costs you may want boots 5 to help you run away.
On August 11 2012 04:06 Bladeorade wrote: No one picks garen versus kayle right now. Alll this kayle "buff" will do is promote more bad ap and hybrid kayle players
I don't know why people pick bruisers into kayle at all. It just happens, and often people are surprised when I jungle or go top.
I don't think I've ever built rageblade on kayle. I'll definitely try hybrid and then straight AP when the change goes through.
I mean I know that he's good since I played him last week, but he trades really well with 6 damaging abilities. I know his combo too. Like he's going to try to go hammer and jump on you, use his aoe, and then knock you away and run into brush and you'll be so far away you can't catch him. Or he'll use the same combo except with the ranged abilities too. It felt like I could fight him on occasions but he was the stronger champion.
Shaco lane ganks didn't help but they put us on even footing as Diana did a weird ass lane gank where the lane was frozen outside my tower and we got a kill :D
After a lot of thinking I think the best way to beat jayce is to try to dodge his Q. His Q is targeted but hits an area so I think it can be dodged. If it is, then you can slow him for a short duration, and try to kite him with phage or chase him back a bit. His best bet at this point if his ult is off cooldown is to go back in cannon form, where hopefully if you have some anti autoattack items, you can beat him in trades. I was able to proc phage on him a number of times and get him low in my game to force him back but he forced me back more often. Also I don't think jayce is that bad midgame though he has no game changing ult the sheer number of his abilities is still good.
Jayce is just so versatile that it's hard to figure out a way to beat him. I don't think Q can be dodged. Perhaps it'd be best to get a bilgewater for guaranteed slow. bonus damage in trades and the lifesteal to stay in lane.
I don't think jayce is beatable in lane. I guess I'll try to be less aggressive in the future. Just not used to that. Then hopefully mid game I'll be playing a more useful champion than him. His attack speed buff is less noticeable late game and the closest thing he has to a game changing move or ult is his knockback if he hits your ADC into his team.
I just watched a game of olimarand louie. It was kayle vs jayce. This matchup is quite common nowadays when you look at the spectated games. Honestly, this was the definition of win lane win game. Kayle went double dorans serks into stinger and jayce went double dorans phage.
Since attack speed is the cheapest stat early game for dps obviously kayle had more damage so she had this one scenario where she won the exchange, jax stunned him, and the rest was just kayle being her team's highest midgame dps with malady stinger. Personally I think he should have gotten stinger second after malady if at all.
Now since attack speed doesn't stack as well on itself as many other things onhit and ap damage tends to fall off. This didn't matter considering he was at least 3k up on gold compared to jayce. Who cares about scaling when you have 50% more gold than someone.
Kayle ended up 12-5 literally carrying her team's midgame with AoE damage.
I'm just gonna go on a binge where I go the most snowbally stuff I can. I normally don't build dorans. The only time I've done so recently was on tristana bot and even then I often just get phage instead. I remember doing on hit build kayle earlier and I commented on how it wasn't good late game when I wanted to kill an entire team and carry with aoe damage. I'll just suck it up. I also had a string of games where I played AP sion mid and made like 3 enemy mids rage quit. That was hilarious. Enemy team constantly whining in all chat. I stopped doing it because I faced an annie who just played safe and didn't die to me and then I fell off later.
Screw strategy or late game or item efficiency. 6 pool to masters.
I'm betting people have no idea what kayle's strengths or weaknesses are in an even game. They just know she's a lane bully who beats many other lane bullies.
I just tried it out. Malady, 2x doran, mercs, ionic, wits, and I would have gotten a madred br too if time had allowed it. I beat GP top hard and only got successfully ganked once (I think malphite flashed into the lane brush or I just missed him going into it this one time). Mercs helps more than the attack speed because as I'd mentioned before too much aspd doesn't work well.
I carried pretty hard. My team was losing and I had my teams only three kills early on, none of them kses. I had ignite just to win my lane harder.
Ended up 8-3.
I ended with 197 cs and my lane opponent, the gp, ended up 1-8 with 139 minions (I left lane too much). Before the game started I also looked up my lane opponent to see if he mained gp. He didn't.
Honestly, I felt like a walking fiddle ult. But I did feel like I fell off too. This strategy shouldn't be this effective.
Teemo does even more damage. He just doesn't have the slow tacked on unless they hit his shrooms. And his damage is single target.
Oh and interesting to note, true damage and magic damage hit through teemo's blinds.
Eh. Gotta know when to play a farm lane and when to play a harass lane :p. Went 3-0 vs yorick the next game but spent too much time harassing and he healed back with manamune and outcsed me.
On September 29 2012 07:04 HughMyron wrote: I don't think Kayle can really survive top against beasts like Rengar/Jayce/Irelia. Tbh, I really see Kayle as more of a jungler now.
Kayle does fine vs Jayce and Irelia but Rengar smokes her with his superb bush control. Irelia can be beat early and Kayle can keep up on damage later.
Its the jump + CC and burst combinations that fuck kayle. Rengar can slow Kayle while unloading his burst in under a second. Irelia can jump but she can be kited. Jayce is just a farm lane and they both scale very well.
Kayle is now +0.4 Righteous Fury so it makes more sense to go ap than ad. I find Nashor's tooth to be one of the core items now(boots->nashor). Allows you to have Righteous Fury on non-stop(with good runes/masteries). Also your ulti will be available really often. Makes up for attack speed that would be given by phantom dancer(Note: you don't necessary need movement speed boost since it will be granted by Divine Blessing). Also gives precious mana regen. Skill choice: E-W-Q-E-E-R ; R>E>W>Q
Reckoning(Q), although stacks well with both damage and power is not really needed early since it's cooldown does not decrease upon leveling and slow % is same aswell.
Kayle: high damage lane pusher, healer, mass creeper, fast speed, invulnerability ... really crazy hero(one of my favorites)
On October 12 2012 08:15 LastWish wrote: Kayle is now +0.4 Righteous Fury so it makes more sense to go ap than ad. Also your ulti will be available really often.
A .4 AP ratio is still at least comparable to a 1.0 AD ratio.
AP
magic damage
AP items
deathcap provides the 30% AP boost
there are lots of great AP items
option for more cdr
more uptime on spells (damage amp, slow, speed boost, and ranged form)
better abilities
burst and heal
better splash damage
AD
more single target ad damage
AD items
IE and PD provide crit scaling and crit damage scaling
You have the option to build bruiser with items like phage and maw
lifesteal
As for kayle' ulti uptime, Kayle's ult is always on such a short cooldown that it will almost always be up from one fight to the next. Having 10% cdr doesn't do anything for it early on. There are several situations where late game lvl 16+, Kayle will be able to use two shields in a single long drawn out fight with 40% cdr. 24 seconds vs 40 is a big difference. Once a fight has died down though, and people start dying and using their ults, dps drops. Kayle's ult is strongest when it blocks a lot of dps so the second ult usually isn't as strong.
Ok Im new, I dont know how to play Top, and kayle is really awkward to play with. Her kiting is really fucked up when she switched back and forth from pseudo-ranged to melee, and her pathing has got to be the most awkward of all the heroes. Time and time again I find her stuck behind some minions trying to figure out which way to go.
Shes really really squishy too :/
I guess Ill have to wait till lvl30 and get runes for final verdict :/
Bought garen after losing 5 games straight with kayle just to stick out top lane. Turns out garen suits my style more atm :/
Seriously I think if you have StarCraft APM skillz then AP Kayle should be for you. Never forget that you can cast on yourself using alt so alt+W and even atl+R will be used alot. Focus on E and you should dominate most laners, use alt+W when you need to hit and run a difficult/fast opponent - seriously kite him. After initial items boots + 3 health potions you should go either Stinger(if you have 1000+ gold) or upgrade boots +25% attack speed. I prefer having Teleport + Flash, so that I don't lose any start XP time while buying items and later on I may easily cash creep lanes where needed + support team. Kayle does not need Ignite, you can catch up your opponent anytime with W and Q, plus you can kill enemy near tower with R + Flash to withdraw. As I already wrote going Nashor is core and after that I suggest going Hextech Revolver or Rageblade. Hextech Gunblade is nice but I consider it more of a lategame item(because the price is rather high) and Revolver is easy to get and easy to profit from. If you have spare money go for example Trinity before Gunblade. Further items are up to your consideration. As for runes and masteries, I focus on attack speed runes. Masteries points are spent mostly on utility but also some into offense so you get +10% cooldown reduction and +3% spell vamp. The rest is up to your consideration. You can go blue golem aura on your own at about 7 lvl with lvl 4 Fury and then spam W. But due to the runes/masteries/nashor you don't rely on blue's cooldown reduction and should be fine most of the time with your mana.
So I've been playing a lot of games as Kayle and one thing I always noticed was a low KDA. I didn't think it was because I had no damage. I felt rather that I had little range and not enough kiting ability. So I decided to do something I've never done outside a bot game. I rushed frozen mallet. Kayle has enough damage from a maxed E to clear creeps at a respectful pace without any damage items.
When I rushed phage people would take a few hits but I wouldn't have enough damage to make use of the slow.
With mallet however my slow was consistent enough to chase and scare people off from me. My team only had one exhaust and one other strong slow in fizz's R so I felt the ranged slow was very useful. I'm going to try building frozen mallet more in the future.
Mallet costs 3250 but provides 2627 gold of combat stats. I used a pickaxe for damage efficiency in gold. Obviously I could be wrong and 200 gold of HP could be worth 300 gold of AD in terms of combat strength but I'm not going to go in depth enough to make the distinction. 622 gold goes to the passive.
Triforce's combat stats add up to a cost of 3822 gold. The item costs 4200. That means 378 gold goes to the passive sheen proc, slow, movespeed, and mana. Triforce is definitely a stronger dueling item than mallet by cost. Just the sheen proc alone is about 1 free auto after every spaced out spell in terms of damage. But so many champs are so easy to kite that I just have to trade off the combat efficiency for the consistent slow. Rely on superior game sense to not get into fights I can't win.
TL:DR Trying out phage. It works nice. May start using it as a first item.
Kayle Jungle is as good as it ever was. Here's the secret to jungling literally any champion: Armor Quints on top of your Armor Seals. Hunter's + 5Pots start. Kayle starts E, then it's R>Q>E>W, taking a point in W at 4. The added damage from each level of Q plus it's damage amplification make it a stronger path than leveling E. You would need to hit someone with a leveled E 6 times to break even with hitting them with a higher ranked Q. One point in E, one point in W at 4, rush lvl 5 Q.
On December 06 2012 05:43 enderwiggnz wrote: Kayle Jungle is as good as it ever was. Here's the secret to jungling literally any champion: Armor Quints on top of your Armor Seals. Hunter's + 5Pots start. Kayle starts E, then it's R>Q>E>W, taking a point in W at 4. The added damage from each level of Q plus it's damage amplification make it a stronger path than leveling E. You would need to hit someone with a leveled E 6 times to break even with hitting them with a higher ranked Q. One point in E, one point in W at 4, rush lvl 5 Q.
That's a good point. Literally everything was a good point. Don't you want the splash for jungle clearing and (the occasional champion bunching up) though. That's part of the reason I jungle Kayle in the first place.
You really don't want to level E past the first level until you have to, instead focusing on Q. In the jungle, even moreso now with more concentration of power in to the big creep, you want to be able to nuke the big creep in each camp with Q, and use the amplified damage on your E to take the big creep out, while the little ones fall eventually to the splash. It's all about getting the big one down quickly which leveling Q helps with.
When you're ganking, it's usually single target, so you want the nuke in Q and amplified damage.
By the time team fights start rolling around, you'll be leveling up your E so your splash will be effective.
Even while laning Kayle, you want to start E, focus Q, 1 point in W at 4, R>Q>E>W . Her E will push the lane horribly if you farm with it, so you try to initially last hit melee only, and if anyone is foolish enough to cross river, nail them with your Q, flame on with E and beat them mercilesslly, while Q'ing them every 4s.
Yeah great points. Definitely want to max Q as the AOE jungle meta is almost entirely gone.
I'm wondering what new items are really good for her. I used to go pure AD beserkers 2-3 dorans blades and IE/phantom dancer at top lane. Straight AD seems to get the most damage potential for her Q and then able to dish out solid damage with auto attacks.
On-hit kayle is probably still quite strong as well but not really sure what the item order should be.
On December 06 2012 06:52 HardCorey wrote: Yeah great points. Definitely want to max Q as the AOE jungle meta is almost entirely gone.
I'm wondering what new items are really good for her. I used to go pure AD beserkers 2-3 dorans blades and IE/phantom dancer at top lane. Straight AD seems to get the most damage potential for her Q and then able to dish out solid damage with auto attacks.
On-hit kayle is probably still quite strong as well but not really sure what the item order should be.
Not sure what the consensus will be when all the new itemization gets shaken out, but a BC is absolutely evil on her: 45% Shred Too Stronk.
One of the nice things about Kayle is her flexibility, you can pick her and then figure out where you have to take her and where you should be steering your build to. Right now, just take advantage of all the stupidly OP items and go murderface.
On December 06 2012 06:52 HardCorey wrote: Yeah great points. Definitely want to max Q as the AOE jungle meta is almost entirely gone.
I'm wondering what new items are really good for her. I used to go pure AD beserkers 2-3 dorans blades and IE/phantom dancer at top lane. Straight AD seems to get the most damage potential for her Q and then able to dish out solid damage with auto attacks.
On-hit kayle is probably still quite strong as well but not really sure what the item order should be.
Not sure what the consensus will be when all the new itemization gets shaken out, but a BC is absolutely evil on her: 45% Shred Too Stronk.
One of the nice things about Kayle is her flexibility, you can pick her and then figure out where you have to take her and where you should be steering your build to. Right now, just take advantage of all the stupidly OP items and go murderface.
%Reductions should all be multiplicative. 45% is a bit much.
Rh doesn't work with kayle because her e is an instant cast. A tiamat is silly because it would disabled when your e is up. BC is nice with your natural splash lowering a ton of peoples armor. AP kayle has never been very good and crit style kayle takes too long to really kick in but when she does she makes entire teams evaporate. Jungle kayle is hard but with her w speed boost she doesn't need boots at all to gank and when she does gank she can ignore towers pretty easily.
the problem with q max jungle is that its very heavy on mana. You'll be almost needed to go ss first and thats a really dead end item for her.
On December 17 2012 02:27 Sermokala wrote: Rh doesn't work with kayle because her e is an instant cast. A tiamat is silly because it would disabled when your e is up. BC is nice with your natural splash lowering a ton of peoples armor. AP kayle has never been very good and crit style kayle takes too long to really kick in but when she does she makes entire teams evaporate. Jungle kayle is hard but with her w speed boost she doesn't need boots at all to gank and when she does gank she can ignore towers pretty easily.
the problem with q max jungle is that its very heavy on mana. You'll be almost needed to go ss first and thats a really dead end item for her.
Pretty sure he was joking about RH since it was pointed out that neither RavHyd or RunHurr proc on Kayle's ranged attacks.
She does take a long time to get going with a crit build and even when she does is probably inferior to a Trist with the same items.
I think max Q muramana is the way to go for the mana in lane, and the sudden burst in midgame effectiveness when it gets finished. Muramana singlehandedly makes a lot of the old champions who still have mana costs more viable imo. I don't know how Darius,Elise,Jayce,Diana are allowed to have 40,30-50 mana cost spells when Nidalee, Kayle, and Yi have 100+ mana cost spells.
I'm not sure how I'd jungle Kayle. Maybe with the flask trick and double armor runes like the guy above said it'd be fine.
On December 17 2012 02:10 obesechicken13 wrote: Genuinely curious whether liandry's and rylais would work well on Kayle. All logic says no. But people seem to be shitting themselves over liandry's.
Does Liandry's proc on autos? I haven't even gotten around to trolly AP Kayle builds what with all the fun I'm having building SotD every game.
On December 17 2012 02:10 obesechicken13 wrote: Genuinely curious whether liandry's and rylais would work well on Kayle. All logic says no. But people seem to be shitting themselves over liandry's.
Does Liandry's proc on autos? I haven't even gotten around to trolly AP Kayle builds what with all the fun I'm having building SotD every game.
Only on the targets hit by Kayle's AoE E afaik, so not the primary target.
On December 17 2012 02:27 Sermokala wrote: Rh doesn't work with kayle because her e is an instant cast. A tiamat is silly because it would disabled when your e is up. BC is nice with your natural splash lowering a ton of peoples armor. AP kayle has never been very good and crit style kayle takes too long to really kick in but when she does she makes entire teams evaporate. Jungle kayle is hard but with her w speed boost she doesn't need boots at all to gank and when she does gank she can ignore towers pretty easily.
the problem with q max jungle is that its very heavy on mana. You'll be almost needed to go ss first and thats a really dead end item for her.
Pretty sure he was joking about RH since it was pointed out that neither RavHyd or RunHurr proc on Kayle's ranged attacks.
She does take a long time to get going with a crit build and even when she does is probably inferior to a Trist with the same items.
I think max Q muramana is the way to go for the mana in lane, and the sudden burst in midgame effectiveness when it gets finished. Muramana singlehandedly makes a lot of the old champions who still have mana costs more viable imo. I don't know how Darius,Elise,Jayce,Diana are allowed to have 40,30-50 mana cost spells when Nidalee, Kayle, and Yi have 100+ mana cost spells.
I'm not sure how I'd jungle Kayle. Maybe with the flash trick and double armor runes like the guy above said it'd be fine.
Trist can blast away at a team with near impunity with multiple get away from me abilities. Kayle literaly evaporates teams being invunerable to any damage for 3 seconds in the middle of a teamfight while she does so.
Landry's would proc on everyone hit by her e splash. It wouldn't do that much damage in the middle of a teamfight with the dot being eaten up so much by her refreshing the dot. Muramana doesn't make sense for someone that will deal most of her damage in aoe. remember that her passive shreds armor and mr and her q increase's the damage that gets spread to everyone around them. She doesn't want to be dealing single target damage or shes really not that useful compared to other people. Kayles in a really werid spot where she can do a whole bunch of things but nothing really that well.
Ran a zerkers, IE, SoTD, BT, GA, Zephyr build last night due to a long drawn out game. It's pretty scary how much damage she can output throughout the whole game. She definitely sees power spikes, but once you get IE - SoTD the activate is ridiculous for her.
would aspd reds/quints into BC be better for her early game damage?
Personally, I do the following: boots + 3 health potions early back for dorans ring early back for second dorans ring beserkers greaves guinsoo's blade nashors tooth gaurdian angel sell a ring to make room for zephyr sell a ring to make room for hextech gunblade
On December 17 2012 15:03 Mandalor28 wrote: Personally, I do the following: boots + 3 health potions early back for dorans ring early back for second dorans ring beserkers greaves guinsoo's blade nashors tooth gaurdian angel sell a ring to make room for zephyr sell a ring to make room for hextech gunblade
On December 17 2012 15:03 Mandalor28 wrote: Personally, I do the following: boots + 3 health potions early back for dorans ring early back for second dorans ring beserkers greaves guinsoo's blade nashors tooth gaurdian angel sell a ring to make room for zephyr sell a ring to make room for hextech gunblade
The only time I ever buy Nashor's on Kayle is as a first regen item. It would be total overkill with 2 drings you could rush something more cost effective. I haven't really figured out what mana item suites her best, tear is overkill, flask isn't enough mana, philo > elisia just feels weird but honestly the best of three I've tried.
Why does kayle need a mana item exactly? As long as you don't spam heal you should be fine. Personally I'm finding cleaver into pd or ionic spark2.0 to be best. Flat + % arp. OP
bought unmasked kayle in the legacy vault sale, and regretted it instantly when I realized they never bothered to update that model or textures, it uses like 1/4th of the resolution of vanilla kayle in the current iteration... I should have known better :\
On December 23 2012 14:32 Bladeorade wrote: Or just get better at managing your mana so as to not cripple your build
No one's crippling their build. This kind of logic of "manage your mana better" was all anyone heard at the start of S2. But you can just do more with more mana. You can engage better with W, you can shoot out more Q's without running out. You can clear faster, get more odd last hits with Q. Yet people still build frozen heart, and sheen, RoA, chalice.
Yes and none of those items are good for kayle. The only mana item I would advocate is nashors and that's more for the cdr for E uptime and attack speed
On December 23 2012 14:32 Bladeorade wrote: Or just get better at managing your mana so as to not cripple your build
No one's crippling their build. This kind of logic of "manage your mana better" was all anyone heard at the start of S2. But you can just do more with more mana. You can engage better with W, you can shoot out more Q's without running out. You can clear faster, get more odd last hits with Q. Yet people still build frozen heart, and sheen, RoA, chalice.
On December 23 2012 23:49 Bladeorade wrote: Yes and none of those items are good for kayle. The only mana item I would advocate is nashors and that's more for the cdr for E uptime and attack speed
On December 23 2012 23:49 Bladeorade wrote: Yes and none of those items are good for kayle. The only mana item I would advocate is nashors and that's more for the cdr for E uptime and attack speed
Might aswell get Zephyr for these stats.
I agree, if you want movement speed, but since I don't need it I'd rather have more mana regen and attack speed with my cdr. It's just a different play style. I'm not going AD so I want attack speed since I'm going on-hit. Zephyr would be much better than Nashors on an AD build.
Ah okay, that makes sense. I always preferred AD builds because I like the late game synergy of AS and Crit. I still think that Zephyr is inherently better than Nashor's on everyone except AP Teemo and arguably Jax, but that is just me. Movespeed is a much better stat than manaregen to me, so that migt be it.
On December 24 2012 23:28 Shiv. wrote: Ah okay, that makes sense. I always preferred AD builds because I like the late game synergy of AS and Crit. I still think that Zephyr is inherently better than Nashor's on everyone except AP Teemo and arguably Jax, but that is just me. Movespeed is a much better stat than manaregen to me, so that migt be it.
I don't see MS as that big a deal on Kayle, with your range and kit she can disengage so easy. What else are you building with CDR if you get Zephyr?
I gave up on CDR as a stat for non ranged mages after two failed attempts where I tried to max out my CDR asap. Once on assasin Xin, the other on tank Rammus. Never felt like I did the right damage or tanked well enough. As Xin I was just against bots.
Recently I had a game as Kayle where I didn't finish Muramana by 27 minutes. That was too long. I still think there may be merit to it as an item if junglers can charge it faster but I'm not hopeful.
BoRK(Blade of the Ruined King) provides something similar. I like getting it as a first item now because the passive provides a lot of life steal. I think, as a first item it provides more dps for its cost than IE or PD. 80 Damage to 1000 life targets. 120 damage to 2000 life targets. 160 damage to 3000 life targets. Then I get a wits end. At that point IE PD's synergy make bork's damage look laughable but I don't think most games last that long.
So I've done some math on Runaan's, rageblade, bork, etc...
Kayle's dps with runaan's isn't bad. You have somewhat decent single target dps. You won't have bork or wits end first. No lifesteal or no mr sucks in top lane. Having to get madreds first in jungle also sucks.
Her DPS to multiple targets is pretty crazy with runaan's under ideal conditions though. These happen very rarely.
On January 06 2013 14:27 dae wrote: Been playing AP kayle mid with nashors/liandrys/sorcs/lichbane build.
Seems pretty strong its hard to tell since I'm doing it w/o runes on a level 12.
Farming is easy, you do alot of sustained damage, attack speed/movespeed slows seem to be very annoying.
Q->autos does ALOT of aoe damage, and your ult/heal are just amazing.
Idk, hard to tell.
Edit: Also, 10 min que times at level 12 is annoying.
Well I think spirit of eldar lizard does about the same thing as Liandry's in terms of dots. Liandry's seems to be the core of the build. Spirit also applies to targets hit by splash, costs less for the passive, and does more to targets with less than 2000 life remaining.
Bladeorade is right. You don't need madreds. Madreds certainly helps vs big camps but spirit stone is fine because the health regen lets you use less pots. Technically you don't need any machete items to jungle.
Only you can see it. But it's really cool. I also customized the login screen to "league of draven" because I got tired of Vi rocking her hips seductively.
I've been trying her using Gunblade + Rageblade instead of the usual IE + PD. So I did some number crunching.
Assuming only these 2 items and E is active: IE+PD = 594 dps GB+RB = 272 dps (no stacks) GB+RB = 374 dps (full stacks) GB+RB = 431 dps (full stacks & below 50% hp)
IE+PD clearly wins out in terms of raw dps. However, Kayle's Q will deal an extra 100 damage with GB+RB combo and the Gunblade active deals about 200 damage. GB+RB also grant 10-20% life steal and 20-30% spell vamp.
In most cases Kayle won't need the extra sustain because she can use her W to heal herself and if she gets bursted down quickly then the extra sustain is mute. Unless you are against a team of 4 armor stacking bruisers just stick to IE + PD if you want to do the most damage.
TL;DR Infinity Edge + Phantom Dancer give more DPS than Gunblade + Rageblade.
I usually go BT first on Kayle. I always feel like you Don't need to build the IE, because you probably are going to want to Ult your AD, or Yourself, whichever is being focused, and the other will tear the other team apart regardless. (If your not the focused one you can leech back AOE with BT).
After some consideration, but only a few games (10 in total maybe?), I find that I like mixed the most on Kayle. I like the sustain, and I also like supporting so slightly better heals are nice, and I find that rageblade+gunblade is kinda complete in a sense, for only 6k (IE+PD = 6,6k, no lifeleech). This is in soloq normals though, so it's a bit whatever. I often build Aegis after those items, since it's rarely seen.
I don't like the new skin. The hair and face don't look like Kayle. Also she's not fully armored. Wings look weird.
I like that she has a voiceover. I'm just gonna swap out some sound files.
Honestly the oldest kayle skins suck. They're just recolors. The last 3 were ok. They still have triangle feet, but oh well.
Reminds me a bit of lux. It's not bad. The face expression bugs me and the left leg is in a weird posture. The hair is too short to be normal Kayle, but it definitely makes her look more like a fighter since hair just gets in the way of your eyes when you fight.
Agreed I'm not a fan overall, but I do like the new look for her E. Definitely not legendary quality though. When you compare it to the likes of Pulsefire Ez and Battlecast Cho...
Assassins get pwned by her gg. She lacks the waveclear of typical mids but diving towers with assassins and aoe is ever easier so its not as huge of a problem right now
On January 11 2013 08:02 nosliw wrote: why the sudden popularity of mid kayle now?
Cause the Koreans are doing it.
So why are the Koreans doing it?
I don't mind nashors start too much: the cdr might be worth the dps loss and other stuff from other items. A sprinkling of mana regen helps. She also gets a stronger Q and W. I don't mind guise. Or sorc boots. Magic pen is still definitely better than AP. But what I don't understand is why people are finishing guise. The damage added is quite low. Also it seems like in that last game GGU vs DNG the Kayle played like an AP mid, and not like an Autoattack carry.
Kayle is a really solid pick in a bursty assassin heavy meta. Her ult is really good to not die from an assassin that blow everything on a target and also really good to dive and kill a squishy assassin under his turret. Ult can be used to deny a lot of champions that rely on single target ult like Darius, Garen, Zed, Akali. Her ult and utility kit that allows you or an ally to kite can destroy squishy champs that rely on life steal to sustain in fights like Lee Sin, Talon, Jax. Snare them, make their target invulnerable or faster and abuse them.
The 60 second cooldown on her ult will probably be 45sec because CDR is the shit to get with her and having this ult for every single teamfight can allow you to just force fight back to back, just lost a teamfight while the ennemy team had nashor buff and popped all there GA? Just push mid force a fight and profit from them not having anything anymore.
The reason why Kayle is played AP with Liandry's and not AD is because she is a teamfight winner, less Burst but a high sustained AoE damage output. You have champ like Kha'zix, Katarina, Darius,AP Yi, Tristana(?) that will end a teamfight by cleaning up anything under 300hp, Kayle is the complement to them. Kayle will shred anyone that commits to teamfight. Let Kayle alive and she will wreck your whole team, focus kayle She'll still have atleast 5sec of Righteous Fury with ultimate to do the most damage possible to the whole team and allow your burst allies to clean up.
On January 11 2013 08:02 nosliw wrote: why the sudden popularity of mid kayle now?
Cause the Koreans are doing it.
So why are the Koreans doing it?
I don't mind nashors start too much: the cdr might be worth the dps loss and other stuff from other items. A sprinkling of mana regen helps. She also gets a stronger Q and W. I don't mind guise. Or sorc boots. Magic pen is still definitely better than AP. But what I don't understand is why people are finishing guise. The damage added is quite low. Also it seems like in that last game GGU vs DNG the Kayle played like an AP mid, and not like an Autoattack carry.
I think Jatt pointed out yesterday, that the effect from liandry applies with her E so it gets on more than one target.
On January 11 2013 08:02 nosliw wrote: why the sudden popularity of mid kayle now?
Cause the Koreans are doing it.
So why are the Koreans doing it?
I don't mind nashors start too much: the cdr might be worth the dps loss and other stuff from other items. A sprinkling of mana regen helps. She also gets a stronger Q and W. I don't mind guise. Or sorc boots. Magic pen is still definitely better than AP. But what I don't understand is why people are finishing guise. The damage added is quite low. Also it seems like in that last game GGU vs DNG the Kayle played like an AP mid, and not like an Autoattack carry.
I think Jatt pointed out yesterday, that the effect from liandry applies with her E so it gets on more than one target.
Also your damage-amping Q will damage amp the % health ticking from the Liandry - that shit HURTS.
On January 09 2013 06:56 Ghost-z wrote: I've been trying her using Gunblade + Rageblade instead of the usual IE + PD. So I did some number crunching.
Assuming only these 2 items and E is active: IE+PD = 594 dps GB+RB = 272 dps (no stacks) GB+RB = 374 dps (full stacks) GB+RB = 431 dps (full stacks & below 50% hp)
IE+PD clearly wins out in terms of raw dps. However, Kayle's Q will deal an extra 100 damage with GB+RB combo and the Gunblade active deals about 200 damage. GB+RB also grant 10-20% life steal and 20-30% spell vamp.
In most cases Kayle won't need the extra sustain because she can use her W to heal herself and if she gets bursted down quickly then the extra sustain is mute. Unless you are against a team of 4 armor stacking bruisers just stick to IE + PD if you want to do the most damage.
TL;DR Infinity Edge + Phantom Dancer give more DPS than Gunblade + Rageblade.
Its also kind of cool to note that you can ult yourself if you drop low and vamp yourself back up to full hp faster than you would normally be able with the rageblade, which runs until 8 seconds after you stop combat, which means it'll still be running when you're at full hp.
The reason DPS Kayle is strong is because you can't trade with her at all from level 2 on unless you're like Draven or something, even then I'm not so sure. She wins sustain and burst and her only real downside is that she has to activate e to farm and it autopushes, but it's not really any worse than Trist, though there is some downtime where you might be able to punish if they mess up (engage right when e is about to wear off).
Basically she's like Draven in that you have to all-in her whenever you decide to trade or you just lose completely.
So is AP kayle viable regarding DPS too? Saw a game yesterday from wickd: link he didnt get any mr, but she pretty much destroyed him instantly, 1154 DMG or so with E, Q was also rough.
As far as my understanding goes: AD more DPS than AP, AP more utility (W, CDR on R)
Q is still not a great poking spell. Its range isn't too long but its better than nothing I suppose.
I still strongly believe AD kayle is far superior to AP or hybrid kayle but I can see why teams would want to run it. For one the AP cdr options are better and she can provide a lot of utility.
Also, does anybody know anything about Jungle Kayle in the professional scene? I vaguely remember one player (Moma?) who plays her in tournaments. If anybody knows more, can you point me to these players and some of their games?
Just destroyed a ranked game as mid kayle. Carried team really hard. Went Nashors + Liandrys into rageblade and some defense. Absolutely no idea on runes and masteries as a more AP focused kayle. Seems like you just build whatever and you do fuckton of dps.
On January 16 2013 06:40 HughMyron wrote: Also, does anybody know anything about Jungle Kayle in the professional scene? I vaguely remember one player (Moma?) who plays her in tournaments. If anybody knows more, can you point me to these players and some of their games?
I've seen Imsofresh playing Kayle jungle both in soloqueue and tournament games (including during the s3 qualifiers). He runes 21/9/0 masteries and AS marks and quints. I have no idea what skill order he uses (I do E>W>Q, but I think it's up for debate). Core items are spirit stone, boots-> upgrade to greaves, one stinger item (I've seen both zephyr and nashor's tooth), spirit of the elder lizard. If I remember correctly, in most of those tournament games Millenium were running jax top, wukong mid and MF bot. Wukong's Q + black cleaver + kayle's passive means the enemy team has no armor and wukong's isn't even afraid to go in because of kayle's ult.
If someone else wants to write a short guide to Kayle mid then I will incorporate it into the OT. My guide is about Kayle top which has fallen out of style and I do not play Kayle mid so I do not feel comfortable writing about it. I understand Nashors + Liandrys but I do not know why that is strong. Tbh sounds weak to me but everyones doing it FotM trolol. Gonna stick with my hipster AD Kayle when I play her. Which isnt often anymore.
On January 16 2013 06:40 HughMyron wrote: Also, does anybody know anything about Jungle Kayle in the professional scene? I vaguely remember one player (Moma?) who plays her in tournaments. If anybody knows more, can you point me to these players and some of their games?
MYM Mokatte used a jungle Kayle vs. Crs in IEM Katowice day 1 earlier today. Did anyone catch what runes/masteries he was using? He was building for Beserker's Greaves, Zephyr and then was turning his Spirit Stone into Spirit of the Elder Lizard. Doesn't seem like it would be that great for solo ranked but fun when playing with a team where you could coordinate with a bruiser(like Wukong in the game) who could take full advantage of your armor shred/ult.
On January 16 2013 19:23 Bladeorade wrote: I'm assuming just mpen reds AP quints mp5 or armor yellows AP or flat mr blues. Maybe AS blues or something but I doubt it
I've been running SSONG's Kayle recently (21/0/9);
Hybrid APen/Mpen Reds Armor Yellows MR Blues AP Quints
I know Nashors/Liandry's is the bread and butter at the moment but what should you build after that?
I have to agree with Blade that I don't see all the fuss about AP Kayle.
I've personally been having a lot of troubles as Kayle though. Particularly against Jax. I don't die to him in lane, I just can't outtrade him, and when I do I feel like it's because I'm outplaying him... severely. Like he'll jump, I'll ult, and he'll dump all his burst and stun during my ult, and then walk away to take free hits, and that's the only way I can win the trade. Or he'll sit by his minions, get slowed, and take free hits running away.
I'd like to try some things(not all at once) to combat this and they probably sound dumb: furor boots for reliable chasing early on. mallet for chasing later, and the health. warmogs for the sustain once it's finished and the health before it's finished. cata for the passive. max w to survive tough lanes like Yorick.
I should also be using my ult better in trades, and also just sitting back in games where I just want to get AD items and carry with damage.
Kill Jax pre 6 or zone him from creeps completely. His leap is a long cooldown as is stun and he needs both to trade with you so abuse those cooldowns.
On January 21 2013 02:17 Bladeorade wrote: Kill Jax pre 6 or zone him from creeps completely. His leap is a long cooldown as is stun and he needs both to trade with you so abuse those cooldowns.
I do zone him from creeps. I even harass under tower. This iteration of LoL is so rewarding to just sitting back and using passive gold and free health pots though.
So you should hit 6 before him just dive and kill him. Jax shouldn't win the lane before phage and by the time he can buy it you should be almost at an IE or have had your first item. Kayle wrecks Jax.
On January 16 2013 19:23 Bladeorade wrote: I'm assuming just mpen reds AP quints mp5 or armor yellows AP or flat mr blues. Maybe AS blues or something but I doubt it
I've been running SSONG's Kayle recently (21/0/9);
Hybrid APen/Mpen Reds Armor Yellows MR Blues AP Quints
I know Nashors/Liandry's is the bread and butter at the moment but what should you build after that?
Void staff does a ton of damage and synergyz's completely amazingly well with sorc and the liandry's pen. after that a hat I guess and a ga or warmogs if your under pressure (seeing you have nashors boots liandry's void hat and have room for only one defensive item)
kayle farms so hard late game its not that unfesible to see you selling the boots for a ga/wamogs depending on what you didn't already have.
Jungle Kayle build order? Just played a game and stomped pretty hard. Didn't upgrade machete, went Sorc->Haunting Guise->Nashor's and was working towards a D-cap when the game ended. Ended up working pretty well, didn't know if anyone else had a better suggestion.
madreds+stinger is incredible on her, it gives you incredibly fast and smooth clear if you can afford to keep blue for a couple of cycles. The madreds procs seem to even out her damage so you on average take out the big and small minions within one auto, so you save like 3-5 seconds per camp on cleanup.
If I get a good early gank and don't get invaded, I like to go for madreds+ spirit stone, it allows you to snowball so hard. Assuming you don't need to carry your lanes super hard, with both you clear the jungle stupid fast and have time to pressure lanes, even if you're not going to convert every gank, you can force so much control. The fact your clear is so stupid means you can constantly invade and smite steal small camps to snowball even harder and control the enemy jungle as well.
You basically farm and pressure, rather than going for conversions like a lot of the contemporary junglers. It's quite terrifying when your CS is 100 higher than both midlaners by 30 mins and you've got 8k gold worth of items when the enemy ADC is just finishing up their second big weapon.
On January 29 2013 03:23 onlywonderboy wrote: Jungle Kayle build order? Just played a game and stomped pretty hard. Didn't upgrade machete, went Sorc->Haunting Guise->Nashor's and was working towards a D-cap when the game ended. Ended up working pretty well, didn't know if anyone else had a better suggestion.
I don't usually build AP in the jungle. I played a few Kayle jungle games last night and stomped with AD/onhit builds. Went Machete > zerks > SS > stinger > Elder Lizard stone > zephyr and felt really good every time. You pick up the same 20% CDR from items and the true damage from the elder lizard stone gets applied to everything hit by E. From there I usually build rageblade or BotRK.
On January 29 2013 03:23 onlywonderboy wrote: Jungle Kayle build order? Just played a game and stomped pretty hard. Didn't upgrade machete, went Sorc->Haunting Guise->Nashor's and was working towards a D-cap when the game ended. Ended up working pretty well, didn't know if anyone else had a better suggestion.
I don't usually build AP in the jungle. I played a few Kayle jungle games last night and stomped with AD/onhit builds. Went Machete > zerks > SS > stinger > Elder Lizard stone > zephyr and felt really good every time. You pick up the same 20% CDR from items and the true damage from the elder lizard stone gets applied to everything hit by E. From there I usually build rageblade or BotRK.
Yeah, I guess it just comes down to personal preference. I like being able to nuke down people with my Q. Might give AD a shot though.
On January 29 2013 03:23 onlywonderboy wrote: Jungle Kayle build order? Just played a game and stomped pretty hard. Didn't upgrade machete, went Sorc->Haunting Guise->Nashor's and was working towards a D-cap when the game ended. Ended up working pretty well, didn't know if anyone else had a better suggestion.
I don't usually build AP in the jungle. I played a few Kayle jungle games last night and stomped with AD/onhit builds. Went Machete > zerks > SS > stinger > Elder Lizard stone > zephyr and felt really good every time. You pick up the same 20% CDR from items and the true damage from the elder lizard stone gets applied to everything hit by E. From there I usually build rageblade or BotRK.
Yeah, I guess it just comes down to personal preference. I like being able to nuke down people with my Q. Might give AD a shot though.
Same here, I only play ad kayle in the jungle, with a build similar to what was suggested. I like picking zeke instead of argeblade/botrk. Sorc+haunting guise bring a lot of damage to champions, but the spell pen is completly useless in the jungle.
On January 29 2013 03:23 onlywonderboy wrote: Jungle Kayle build order? Just played a game and stomped pretty hard. Didn't upgrade machete, went Sorc->Haunting Guise->Nashor's and was working towards a D-cap when the game ended. Ended up working pretty well, didn't know if anyone else had a better suggestion.
I don't usually build AP in the jungle. I played a few Kayle jungle games last night and stomped with AD/onhit builds. Went Machete > zerks > SS > stinger > Elder Lizard stone > zephyr and felt really good every time. You pick up the same 20% CDR from items and the true damage from the elder lizard stone gets applied to everything hit by E. From there I usually build rageblade or BotRK.
Yeah, I guess it just comes down to personal preference. I like being able to nuke down people with my Q. Might give AD a shot though.
Same here, I only play ad kayle in the jungle, with a build similar to what was suggested. I like picking zeke instead of argeblade/botrk. Sorc+haunting guise bring a lot of damage to champions, but the spell pen is completly useless in the jungle.
Why Zekes? It gives you very little damage so you can't really take off with multiplicative scaling with it. And you should never be able to 1v1 someone with it, not because the stats are noncombat stats, but because it isn't cost efficient on just one person and because of multiplicative scaling. Also 10% cdr isn't going to make or break a duel. Having Q up 1 second earlier is not as much as having 20% more attack speed and 20(guess?) more dps for 8 seconds. You're basically relegating yourself to a support with farm by buying a zekes first. Also lifesteal is good in the jungle since you hit stuff way more than in lane so I'm fine with that, and I guess lifesteal is good for duels.
On January 29 2013 03:23 onlywonderboy wrote: Jungle Kayle build order? Just played a game and stomped pretty hard. Didn't upgrade machete, went Sorc->Haunting Guise->Nashor's and was working towards a D-cap when the game ended. Ended up working pretty well, didn't know if anyone else had a better suggestion.
I don't usually build AP in the jungle. I played a few Kayle jungle games last night and stomped with AD/onhit builds. Went Machete > zerks > SS > stinger > Elder Lizard stone > zephyr and felt really good every time. You pick up the same 20% CDR from items and the true damage from the elder lizard stone gets applied to everything hit by E. From there I usually build rageblade or BotRK.
Yeah, I guess it just comes down to personal preference. I like being able to nuke down people with my Q. Might give AD a shot though.
Same here, I only play ad kayle in the jungle, with a build similar to what was suggested. I like picking zeke instead of argeblade/botrk. Sorc+haunting guise bring a lot of damage to champions, but the spell pen is completly useless in the jungle.
Sounds like a play style difference, because I'd much prefer to go into lanes and secure kills for my lane instead of just farming the jungle
On January 29 2013 03:23 onlywonderboy wrote: Jungle Kayle build order? Just played a game and stomped pretty hard. Didn't upgrade machete, went Sorc->Haunting Guise->Nashor's and was working towards a D-cap when the game ended. Ended up working pretty well, didn't know if anyone else had a better suggestion.
I don't usually build AP in the jungle. I played a few Kayle jungle games last night and stomped with AD/onhit builds. Went Machete > zerks > SS > stinger > Elder Lizard stone > zephyr and felt really good every time. You pick up the same 20% CDR from items and the true damage from the elder lizard stone gets applied to everything hit by E. From there I usually build rageblade or BotRK.
Yeah, I guess it just comes down to personal preference. I like being able to nuke down people with my Q. Might give AD a shot though.
Same here, I only play ad kayle in the jungle, with a build similar to what was suggested. I like picking zeke instead of argeblade/botrk. Sorc+haunting guise bring a lot of damage to champions, but the spell pen is completly useless in the jungle.
Why Zekes? It gives you very little damage so you can't really take off with multiplicative scaling with it. And you should never be able to 1v1 someone with it, not because the stats are noncombat stats, but because it isn't cost efficient on just one person and because of multiplicative scaling. Also 10% cdr isn't going to make or break a duel. Having Q up 1 second earlier is not as much as having 20% more attack speed and 20(guess?) more dps for 8 seconds. You're basically relegating yourself to a support with farm by buying a zekes first. Also lifesteal is good in the jungle since you hit stuff way more than in lane so I'm fine with that, and I guess lifesteal is good for duels.
I mentionned (not clearly though) I would get zeke after zephyr and spirit of the elder lizard. Laning phase is over by the time I manage to get all that, so I'm often with my team which mean I'm not the only one getting the aura. The extra 10% CDR brings my E to about 0.5 sec downtime so I can basically use it whenever I want.
I still dislike cdr, but I do agree it can be useful when your E goes on CD.
I decided to try to graph out a Kayle DPS chart for the standard AP chart vs the standard AD chart. Last whisper instead of PD doesn't make much difference. What's obvious and matches my experience in real games is that AD overtakes AP from 26:30 onwards but its not factoring in splash damage which would favor the AP build. Or that AP has an easier time in laning phase with stronger Q's and more mana. But the use of Dorans blades allows AD Kayle to have an easier time last hitting with E off (not to push lane) and healing with autoattacks. Both skill orders favor E so neither one is lopsided towards more DPS. http://lol.askmrrobot.com/tools/builder/kayle-vs-targetdummy/6146c23f-5001-4d5a-a5fd-ae57d44c7a37#r=Damage,t=TargetDummy,d=Dps
I haven't really looked too much into it but I highly doubt Mr. Robot right now. Items that I picked were the most commonly built on lolking and the most common AD items. Most games are decided from the 2-28 minute mark (between your 0th and 2nd big item) and there isn't much difference between the two here). I'm still going to be doing AD builds and sometimes on hit builds. I like the scaling into late game and the early game strength respectively.
On February 07 2013 13:01 nosliw wrote: Yeah but your DPS uses E max in the abilities....
AP builds probably favor E max as E scales off of .4 AP at max rank and Q scales off 1.0 AP meaning with say 50 AP, your max E hits for 80 and your max Q hits for 280 and gives 5% more damage for 4 seconds. 280/80=3.5. Maxing E isn't terrible on AP Kayle. The breakeven is closer to 3 autos considering Kayle's first level of Q gives more damage(60) than a level up of Q(40).
Since I'm maxing E first in both AD and AP I doubt it makes much difference.
On February 07 2013 13:01 nosliw wrote: Yeah but your DPS uses E max in the abilities....
AP builds probably favor E max as E scales off of .4 AP at max rank and Q scales off 1.0 AP meaning with say 50 AP, your max E hits for 80 and your max Q hits for 280 and gives 5% more damage for 4 seconds. 280/80=3.5. Maxing E isn't terrible on AP Kayle. The breakeven is closer to 3 autos considering Kayle's first level of Q gives more damage(60) than a level up of Q(40).
Since I'm maxing E first in both AD and AP I doubt it makes much difference.
Q max in lane, E max in the jungle. That's how I've been doing it anyway.
On February 07 2013 13:01 nosliw wrote: Yeah but your DPS uses E max in the abilities....
AP builds probably favor E max as E scales off of .4 AP at max rank and Q scales off 1.0 AP meaning with say 50 AP, your max E hits for 80 and your max Q hits for 280 and gives 5% more damage for 4 seconds. 280/80=3.5. Maxing E isn't terrible on AP Kayle. The breakeven is closer to 3 autos considering Kayle's first level of Q gives more damage(60) than a level up of Q(40).
Since I'm maxing E first in both AD and AP I doubt it makes much difference.
Q max in lane, E max in the jungle. That's how I've been doing it anyway.
I thought with the changes to jungle mobs health, it became max Q everywhere. I don't really have trouble cleaning up the small minions before the big one even dies with rank 1 E.
Yes but it still doesn't make sense to me. The numbers I read do not add up to 1/2 of someone health in Q and 2 autos. Now if you get DFG do you Q then DFG or DFG then Q? O_o
On February 11 2013 08:32 Bladeorade wrote: Yes but it still doesn't make sense to me. The numbers I read do not add up to 1/2 of someone health in Q and 2 autos. Now if you get DFG do you Q then DFG or DFG then Q? O_o
I actually wondered this when I was looking through swain's skills and guessed that you should do whatever whatever order does more damage AFTER amplification, not before. Seems to me like the general idea is that the formula is
Q damage + (Q damage x .2) + DFG active damage = X Q damage + DFG active damage + (DFG active damage x .1) = Y
If X > Y use Q first, if not use DFG first. Haven't done the math but if your targeting a squishy (low max hp) champion or have a large amount of AP, DFG first is better.
What's the state of Kayle right now? I stopped playing LoL about a month ago, right before the Reckoning/MR level nerfs. I had been spamming her in soloq on my smurf to grind back up to Diamond but am not sure if she's still good for it. How's Kayle doing?
Been enjoying a lot of jungle Kayle lately with Ghost/Smite.
Her roaming with W and clear speed with E is just insane, and the baits/tower dives that you can coordinate with her ult never gets old. Dunno why I dont see much Kayle players, jungle or otherwise, she's definitely my favorite champ to play.
Anyone got a grip on Kayle support? I gave it a few runs but it just seems so weak (or I'm just a bad support player).
Kayle is still decent, but not top-tier anymore. That ult range nerf hurt a lot, surprisingly. Since you're a Diamond player you probably know more about it than we do, though.
Top lane Kayle is playable, but invariably pushes the lane hard and opens herself up to camping.
AP Carry Kayle is not quite as powerful as she used to be thanks to the nerfs, but she's still a force to be reckoned with. I think she's viable, but whatever.
Support Kayle is excellent against all-in bot laners like Tristana, Graves, Leona, Alistar, Blitzcrank, etc. Support Kayle suffers against poke-oriented bot laners such as Caitlyn and Lulu. Use her as a situational pick, don't play her every game.
On May 16 2013 05:23 Jojo131 wrote: Been enjoying a lot of jungle Kayle lately with Ghost/Smite.
Her roaming with W and clear speed with E is just insane, and the baits/tower dives that you can coordinate with her ult never gets old. Dunno why I dont see much Kayle players, jungle or otherwise, she's definitely my favorite champ to play.
Anyone got a grip on Kayle support? I gave it a few runs but it just seems so weak (or I'm just a bad support player).
What runes do you do with jungle? Also, what skill build? I typically play her mid or top.
I've played a few games of kayle support (and won them), and I think it has potential. She has a slow, a heal/ms boost, a ranged attack and a good ultimate for bot lane. A potential weakness is that she can't auto attack for harass without pushing the lane and/or messing up last hits, but I feel that this can be mitigated. I'm not a great player however, so I'm eager to hear what some better players think.
On May 16 2013 05:23 Jojo131 wrote: Been enjoying a lot of jungle Kayle lately with Ghost/Smite.
Her roaming with W and clear speed with E is just insane, and the baits/tower dives that you can coordinate with her ult never gets old. Dunno why I dont see much Kayle players, jungle or otherwise, she's definitely my favorite champ to play.
Anyone got a grip on Kayle support? I gave it a few runs but it just seems so weak (or I'm just a bad support player).
What runes do you do with jungle? Also, what skill build? I typically play her mid or top.
I've played a few games of kayle support (and won them), and I think it has potential. She has a slow, a heal/ms boost, a ranged attack and a good ultimate for bot lane. A potential weakness is that she can't auto attack for harass without pushing the lane and/or messing up last hits, but I feel that this can be mitigated. I'm not a great player however, so I'm eager to hear what some better players think.
I'm currently running attack speed (red), Armor (yellow), AP/level (blues) and Movespeed (quints). The reds and the yellows feel mandatory imo, the rest is just preference. Skilling R>E>Q>W.
With the new wits making me try out Kayle again, I realized just how strong rageblade is on her. Specially because, with good timing on her e and w casts, she can maintain 8 stacks indefinitely. This is strong when splitpushing, she can get from one wave to the next without going through the ramp up time.
Edit: Oh and I totally forgot the most important part: This also works for the unique passive that you get when falling below 50% health. So when trading, if you get it to proc, you basically have a permanent 10% lifesteal + spellvamp and 20% as on top of the normal rageblade stacks for as long as your mana holds the w - e rotation. And since you keep w at lvl1 (60 mana) and e cost doesn't grow, that will be a very long time. Just be careful about when your e is up.
Can anyone understand what is going on with Phreak build in this Smashgizmo vid(Scroll to like 1:50 is the second game) how can you achieve this. looks good to me...
Can anyone understand what is going on with Phreak build in this Smashgizmo vid(Scroll to like 1:50 is the second game) how can you achieve this. looks good to me...
Looks like a pretty standard ap Kayle build except for the zephyr to me. I dont get the question really. Were u surprised he went ap on top ? I think Kayle top is not optimal. You push the lane with your e and are more vulnerable cause of the longer lane. Also with blue and nashors tooth u already sit at 40% cdr + you can spam your w for great sustain and mobility. So blue does a lot for her. She is also really great at taking wolves and wraiths, which u can not utilize at top.
And ye at 6 items she is pretty scary, though it would be even more scary with a lichbane instead of the zephyr.
Can anyone understand what is going on with Phreak build in this Smashgizmo vid(Scroll to like 1:50 is the second game) how can you achieve this. looks good to me...
Looks like a pretty standard ap Kayle build except for the zephyr to me. I dont get the question really. Were u surprised he went ap on top ? I think Kayle top is not optimal. You push the lane with your e and are more vulnerable cause of the longer lane. Also with blue and nashors tooth u already sit at 40% cdr + you can spam your w for great sustain and mobility. So blue does a lot for her. She is also really great at taking wolves and wraiths, which u can not utilize at top.
And ye at 6 items she is pretty scary, though it would be even more scary with a lichbane instead of the zephyr.
i'm asking how to achieve this, what masterys, runes, etc.. i've been experimenting a bit but i don't seem to get it
You want both % pene masteries in offense anything else is your usual ap page. Hybrid reds, armor yellows, flat ap or mr blues, depending on mu or how aggresive you wanna play, and ap quints. r > q > e > w Rush nashors tooth asap. Its just made for her it seems. With blue you sit already at 40% cdr and can keep e on 100%. After that you have a lot of options. I really like to have nashor, rabadons and lichbane as my first 3 items. Your burst is really good at that point. She is a lane bully and you have to play her like that.
On June 20 2013 07:13 Kenpark wrote: You want both % pene masteries in offense anything else is your usual ap page. Hybrid reds, armor yellows, flat ap or mr blues, depending on mu or how aggresive you wanna play, and ap quints. r > q > e > w Rush nashors tooth asap. Its just made for her it seems. With blue you sit already at 40% cdr and can keep e on 100%. After that you have a lot of options. I really like to have nashor, rabadons and lichbane as my first 3 items. Your burst is really good at that point. She is a lane bully and you have to play her like that.
Should you be aiming for max CDR through items if you cant get blue buff constantly? I usually go nashors -> cdr boots or osmething like that to keep E up constantly
On June 20 2013 07:13 Kenpark wrote: You want both % pene masteries in offense anything else is your usual ap page. Hybrid reds, armor yellows, flat ap or mr blues, depending on mu or how aggresive you wanna play, and ap quints. r > q > e > w Rush nashors tooth asap. Its just made for her it seems. With blue you sit already at 40% cdr and can keep e on 100%. After that you have a lot of options. I really like to have nashor, rabadons and lichbane as my first 3 items. Your burst is really good at that point. She is a lane bully and you have to play her like that.
Should you be aiming for max CDR through items if you cant get blue buff constantly? I usually go nashors -> cdr boots or osmething like that to keep E up constantly
I´m only in silver so take everything with a grain of salt, but I do have over 100 games this season with ap Kayle with a good %. I think berserker are too good to pass on esp if you go with hybrid reds and not as reds. You just need that as. Maybe wits end is an option then, but I feel it delays your core items too much and it does nothing for your q and w.
On June 20 2013 07:13 Kenpark wrote: You want both % pene masteries in offense anything else is your usual ap page. Hybrid reds, armor yellows, flat ap or mr blues, depending on mu or how aggresive you wanna play, and ap quints. r > q > e > w Rush nashors tooth asap. Its just made for her it seems. With blue you sit already at 40% cdr and can keep e on 100%. After that you have a lot of options. I really like to have nashor, rabadons and lichbane as my first 3 items. Your burst is really good at that point. She is a lane bully and you have to play her like that.
Should you be aiming for max CDR through items if you cant get blue buff constantly? I usually go nashors -> cdr boots or osmething like that to keep E up constantly
I´m only in silver so take everything with a grain of salt, but I do have over 100 games this season with ap Kayle with a good %. I think berserker are too good to pass on esp if you go with hybrid reds and not as reds. You just need that as. Maybe wits end is an option then, but I feel it delays your core items too much and it does nothing for your q and w.
I agree. I play a fair bit of Kayle at Gold III and I feel berserkers > sorcs >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CDR boots
Man, can anyone give me some pointers on AP kayle? For some reason I am just awful with her. Reading through this thread, am I right so far with R>Q>E>W 21-9-0?
As for items, I find that rushing a lot of damage just leaves me so vulnerable as a short range, low CC, auto reliant squishy caster. Do I just need to use my ult/heal better? The only mid I am half decent at is Ahri and so I'm sure my Ap caster positioning is garbage.
What is a good item progression/6 item build to work towards?
I hate to bump an old thread, but it's better than making a new one. I figure it's worth talking about Kayle again after recent events in the professional scene. As we know, she saw two sets of nerfs, but they didn't Olaf her. As some compensation, Nashor's Tooth is one of the most cost-effective items in the game, but it only is really optimal on Kayle and Teemo.
Kayle sees sporadic play at the professional level. Vileroze used her in LCS occasionally, but opponents banned Kayle quite a bit, so we didn't get to see too much of her from Velocity. Alex Ich used her in the EU LCS playoffs as a counter to Zed, and Whitezz used her in the World Championship Semifinals in a 1v2 lane as a teamfight counter to Fizz. However, Kayle's full potential is contingent on landing solid Interventions, and IMO that is one of the hardest things to do in the game. A few days back we saw Fnatic constantly force Kayle to ult herself (or the Support) to keep them alive, stopping her from saving Caitlyn as best she could.
I play Kayle a crapton, though I am admittedly pretty bad at her, specifically in terms of teamfight positioning and ulting people.
Responding to the other posts in the thread... I prefer 21/6/3 or 21/0/9 masteries. Runes are AP Quints/AS Reds/Armor Yellows/MR Blues. Sometimes I substitute in Movespeed Quints when I need to kite people better or dodge skillshots more easily. mp/5 Yellows are an option against a magic damage enemy, but I think Armor is better to help take creep aggro.
For a build, start Flask/Ward/Pot or DRing/Pots, the former is better in most cases cause junglers will get on your nuts early.
Build is Boots, Nashor's, Lich Bane, Rabadon, Void, Zhonya, in roughly that order, though you can move up Void if everyone's a tank, or move up Zhonya if you need it for whatever reason (assassins, all-AD team, etc). I like Zerkers for fast pushing, but Sorcs is better for teamfighting. Liandry is kinda bad after the Kayle nerf IMO, but it can work with Rylai and Sorc I think. You can use Zephyr if you need it I guess, or something like Randuin/BVeil/Warmogs/Scimitar if you absolutely need it.
The big challenge of playing Kayle is intelligent positioning in teamfights and good ults, at least in my opinion.
For maximum burst you can go Nashor's -> Lichbane -> DFG.
If you are even or ahead, you WILL kill the enemy ADC in under 2 seconds with a DFG -> E Lichbane proc -> Q -> auto unless they have godlike reflexes to get out of range of the second auto.
From personal experience, 3rd item is situational between Hourglass, Void, DFG, or GA. I used to go Deathcap in most of my games, but you get a comparable amount of AP from DFG, with 10% CDR to make you not blue dependent for keeping up E (30% CDR gives you 0.2 seconds of downtime on E), and the active melts squishies with your combo so it's probably strictly better to go DFG before Deathcap.
Kayle has been my main champion since I started playing this game (beginning of season 2) and I have ~ 200 ranked games with her I think. I've played her every way I can think of, support, AP/AD jungle, AP mid, AP/AD top, even AP or AD bot. Recently I've been trying a new build on her for top lane and I've been doing pretty well with it.
Masteries: 21/0/9 Runes: Magic penetration reds/scaling AP yellows/scaling AP blues/AP quints
Starting items: dring/2pots. As soon as I have 800 I back for two more drings. Then I grab a blasting wand and sorc shoes. Depening on my matchup or if opposing mid lane is getting fed I build an abyssal scepter. Honestly, in mid game, the burst is just insane. And I've even been maxing E first (yes, E). It doesn't HAVE to push your lane too hard if your opponent is pushing hard himself, and I've found that around level 10-12 teamfights I'm taking off considerable chunks of health from everyone with the E splash.
The build rounds out with nashors tooth after abyssal, then morellonomicon, zhonyas, and a lichbane. People rage me when they see 3 drings but I never run out of mana in lane with them! I can spam skills and farm safely. I know it seems like a troll build but I've played Kayle for so long that I wanted to give something weird a shot, and this turns out to be working for me.
2 Drings and not using E 100% of the time is enough to never run out of mana if your opponent doesn't force you to use W to heal up.
Also you get so much more damage out of maxing Q. +200 damage and 20% slow for ranking it, compared to 40 damage per hit. You have to hit 5 extra times to match the damage you would have gotten from maxing Q, and Q max pushes the lane less hard. I normally only get 2-4 hits in after I land a Q, so hitting 5 EXTRA hits would be tough.
I can sort of see an Abyssal build being alright for top lane, but Hourglass rush is probably better (and more damage besides). Leaving the Lichbane to a last item though just leaves off so much burst. In my opinion, the only reason Nashor's is the first item on mid Kayle instead of Lichbane is that you NEED that CDR more than anything.
On October 01 2013 13:07 Magus wrote: 2 Drings and not using E 100% of the time is enough to never run out of mana if your opponent doesn't force you to use W to heal up.
Also you get so much more damage out of maxing Q. +200 damage and 20% slow for ranking it, compared to 40 damage per hit. You have to hit 5 extra times to match the damage you would have gotten from maxing Q, and Q max pushes the lane less hard. I normally only get 2-4 hits in after I land a Q, so hitting 5 EXTRA hits would be tough.
I can sort of see an Abyssal build being alright for top lane, but Hourglass rush is probably better (and more damage besides). Leaving the Lichbane to a last item though just leaves off so much burst. In my opinion, the only reason Nashor's is the first item on mid Kayle instead of Lichbane is that you NEED that CDR more than anything.
Yeah, mana is awesome on Kayle during laning.
What rank are you?(you can pm this) What do you do against the melees that just reach 6 and dive you? Renekton and Jax murder me as Kayle. What if the opponent can't normally hit you but just builds Cowl, Doran's shield, and Spirit Stone and waits for ganks from a ganker that can bypass wards? A Nasus did that to me once and it was very annoying that I couldn't push him out of lane.
Also you do lose 720 gold (.6*1200) when you sell the dorans compared to if you hadn't needed the 3 dorans rings and had just gotten Nashors instead. 480 gold is like 20.6 mana pots or 2060 mana. If all you want is mana you can get more from mana runes and chalice for much cheaper but of course you're looking at the 180 hp and 45 ap as well.
Finally, Nashors is a much better first item for damage than Abyssal or Hourglass. It gives more damage per auto 15+(.15+.4)*(AP) where your AP is 60 from nashors + 45 from dorans + 6 from masteries + 10 from runes. 81 damage per hit
Compared to hourglass 120 AP (.4)*(120+45+6+10) 72 damage
Renekton is just a douche champion. I don't even pick Kayle into him, it's a skill matchup that's so much easier for him to play. Same with Riven, though Kayle is supposed to handle her ok, you just have to be willing to give up the occasional cs and not spam your E, or Riven will combo you and outtrade you if you misposition. I've beaten Rivens before, and I think the key is to playing carefully and reactionary rather than going "YOLO HAM DONGER" mode. Use E to auto her when she goes in for cs, and Q/W to run away as she uses Valor and Q. Movespeed Quints are helpful, though it will sacrifice your damage output.
Against Jax, I run Movespeed Quints and play fairly aggressively with Qs, trying to bait his leap. After he leaps, I use W and E to kite him. After he's done trading, I chase after him (keeping a fair distance) and return as many autoattacks as I can. Be aggressive when stun is down, you outtrade him when he doesn't have access to the stun. Jax is beatable, though he has the advantage after he gets some levels. Oh, and if he gets firstblood from a gank you lose hard, so don't get BAITED AND OUTSMARTED.
Regardless, if you trade poorly as Kayle, immediately fire some autoattacks back at the enemy after the trade ends to salvage things, because that's when the enemy Bruiser has burned all his cooldowns and you still have an MF-range auto. You probably already know this, though others might not, but it's a mistake to be passive after the Bruiser finishes his trade, you need to strike back regardless of whether you executed your kiting correctly.
I'm only Gold I though so take my opinions with a grain of salt. Green Pride is a Diamond Kayle fanatic who wrote an excellent Top Lane Kayle guide on Lolking, I follow his advice on the Jax matchup (minus the MS Quints). He lists Riven as a hard matchup, some other people say she's not too bad, it really depends on the player I suppose. Top Lane Kayle does murder Vladimir and Darius though, that's always fun.
On October 03 2013 14:04 HughMyron wrote: Renekton is just a douche champion. I don't even pick Kayle into him, it's a skill matchup that's so much easier for him to play. Same with Riven, though Kayle is supposed to handle her ok, you just have to be willing to give up the occasional cs and not spam your E, or Riven will combo you and outtrade you if you misposition. I've beaten Rivens before, and I think the key is to playing carefully and reactionary rather than going "YOLO HAM DONGER" mode. Use E to auto her when she goes in for cs, and Q/W to run away as she uses Valor and Q. Movespeed Quints are helpful, though it will sacrifice your damage output.
Against Jax, I run Movespeed Quints and play fairly aggressively with Qs, trying to bait his leap. After he leaps, I use W and E to kite him. After he's done trading, I chase after him (keeping a fair distance) and return as many autoattacks as I can. Be aggressive when stun is down, you outtrade him when he doesn't have access to the stun. Jax is beatable, though he has the advantage after he gets some levels. Oh, and if he gets firstblood from a gank you lose hard, so don't get BAITED AND OUTSMARTED.
Regardless, if you trade poorly as Kayle, immediately fire some autoattacks back at the enemy after the trade ends to salvage things, because that's when the enemy Bruiser has burned all his cooldowns and you still have an MF-range auto. You probably already know this, though others might not, but it's a mistake to be passive after the Bruiser finishes his trade, you need to strike back regardless of whether you executed your kiting correctly.
I'm only Gold I though so take my opinions with a grain of salt. Green Pride is a Diamond Kayle fanatic who wrote an excellent Top Lane Kayle guide on Lolking, I follow his advice on the Jax matchup (minus the MS Quints). He lists Riven as a hard matchup, some other people say she's not too bad, it really depends on the player I suppose. Top Lane Kayle does murder Vladimir and Darius though, that's always fun.
That honestly sounds about right. Lots of hard matchups. I'm not ok with her just being good against Vlad, Singed, and supposedly Darius and Zed though.
I'm only Silver so I don't really play enough to get good at a bunch of top champions and if I play someone I haven't played in a while I make silly mistakes like forgetting keybinds and basic fundamental strategies of the champs and sometimes forget what to build or how to trade. Therefore I can't learn 8 champions and use them to counterpick with.
I think Kayle can handle a lot of matchups top and survive. Even ones like Garen and Riven are doable but they require you to play really scared and to not make any mistakes. Most of the champions that go top do it because they are excellent duelists. Kayle doesn't have the base stats or strong dueling abilities needed to let her fight a lot of them head on so she just relies on fighting them when it's opportunistic. Kayle's Q and W and E aren't strong dueling abilities by any means and her ult is about as strong as Jax's E when you're just concerned with dueling.
Opportunities
When the enemy is walking away, and has no gap closer, but is not going towards a brush and is slowed
When they are level 5 so they're not strong enough to dive you and kill you under minions
Or when your jungler is ganking
When you have a ton of minions
When they are under tower and unable to fight you without losing most of the minion cs
They're too low to fight you but they still come in range for you to attack them because they want to CS
And it's just so hard because if you get a single lag spike, or you walk slightly too close to Garen/Nasus, or you get in Range for Jax/Lee/Riven/Renekton to initiate, you automatically lose the trade.
If the enemy loses their gap closer it's because they misplayed
Winning from level 1-5 means nothing if they win the rest of the laning phase (75+% of it)
Unreliable and their jungler could be ganking you
How do you get a ton of minions in the first place? You need to win a trade and start outpushing.
This puts you in a position to get ganked. Again, how do you get to this position in the first place?
How did you get them low in the first place?
Imo, these days unless you're counterpicking you should put Kayle mid or bot if your team needs an AP and your team is ok with it. Maybe it'd be ok to go top if you could swap with your mid after a certain time, eg if you wanted to swap with Morde, Swain, or Vlad.
On October 03 2013 15:21 FinestHour wrote: zhonyas? abyssal? on kayle?
what division does this actually work in
I think zhonyas is really good on kayle. would definetly not get it first though.
If you get Zhonyas you are more likely to save your ult for your team. And Kayle isnt exactly the longest range mage, so you are kinda likely to get jumped on in team fights.
Getting Zhonya's on Kayle is basically just saying "Now I'm invincible for 5.5 seconds whenever I feel like it. Deal with it." Also Hourglass is shit-tons of AP so it's not like you're losing out if you're forced into buying it against a heavy AD team.
As for MR, I tend to buy GA instead of Abyssal. It's just a lot more useful.
My usual final build is Nashor's Sorc's Lichbane DFG Dcap GA.
If you were going to swap something out for a situational item, I'd probably switch out the Dcap. You have so much burst from Q and Lichbane and you can make up the damage you lose from switching out Dcap by just hitting them with more autos. Also not sure how the damage would compare if you switched out Dcap or Boots to buy a Void Staff. I am too lazy to do the math on that.
Also I'm Silver 1 playing against high Gold to low Plat, so take my advice with however much salt you feel that warrants.
On October 03 2013 14:49 obesechicken13 wrote: That honestly sounds about right. Lots of hard matchups. I'm not ok with her just being good against Vlad, Singed, and supposedly Darius and Zed though.
Eh...Kayle can survive pretty much every lane in the game, which is more than you can say for most toplaners. And when Kayle wins, she snowballs really hard, as ranged toplaners can harass under tower a lot better than melee ones, not to mention the dive potential Kayle has. Finally, Kayle has excellent damage and utility as far as toplaners go, and she has excellent base stats and stat growth (look her up...she's tankier than Irelia at 18!).
And Kayle's matchups aren't HARD, per se, they just require an initial investment of knowledge and planning. For example, when many newer players start to lose a trade, they passively slink away and try to farm. If you do that with Kayle, you'll die very quickly, you absolutely NEED to retaliate: get your distance and hit them with E/aa as they run. Also, you need to get in the habit of aggressive warding. Kayle pushes fairly hard, so obviously you should ward against enemy junglers. If you're playing against Renekton or Rengar in particular, or any Bruisers you find problematic, you should ward a lane bush too! In short, think about what you can do, and what the enemy can do, and plan accordingly, whether at Top or Mid.
Honestly, Kayle's laning is the least of my concerns unless I get ganked a lot and start feeding. Where I derp is when it comes to teamfighting...positioning with Kayle can be tricky.
Imo, these days unless you're counterpicking you should put Kayle mid or bot if your team needs an AP and your team is ok with it. Maybe it'd be ok to go top if you could swap with your mid after a certain time, eg if you wanted to swap with Morde, Swain, or Vlad.
Kayle Mid is honestly better than Kayle Top, but Kayle Top can work well in certain teamcomps, and scales really well.
As a side note, playing Kayle Top a lot made me a better Kayle Mid player.
My Top Lane champion rotation consists of kind of weird champs, like Irelia, Udyr, Kayle, Lissandra, and I'll probably bring Olaf back in if he's any good after the changes. I also like Elise and Vladimir.
Been grinding Kayle a lot these days, some new observations.
1) Top or Mid, ALWAYS start Flask/Ward/Pot, srsly. Junglers have a hardon for you, cause you're squishy and invariably push huehue.
2) Ahri is a popular mid, you should know how to fight her. It basically revolves around your ability to dodge her Charm. When you want to open aggression (again, BEWARE THE JANGLER), run at her, anticipating the W, then sidestep as soon as you see it fired. Then use your W, Q, and autos to hit her a few times.
3) Movespeed Quints can be invaluable against skillshot mids. Also against jungler ganks. Yesterday I had a hilarious chase sequence where a Lee Sin was desperately trying to get behind me to ult, but couldn't cause I moved faster than him! Some people may call me a noob for using Movespeed Quints (cause SSONG used AP Quints), but I've always been more successful with Movespeed.
4) For whatever reason I find it easier to stutter-step with her default skin than with Aether Wing Kayle (their autoattack animations are different). Might be psychological though. Still working on mastering stutter-stepping in general.
On October 06 2013 18:01 HughMyron wrote: Been grinding Kayle a lot these days, some new observations.
1) Top or Mid, ALWAYS start Flask/Ward/Pot, srsly. Junglers have a hardon for you, cause you're squishy and invariably push huehue.
2) Ahri is a popular mid, you should know how to fight her. It basically revolves around your ability to dodge her Charm. When you want to open aggression (again, BEWARE THE JANGLER), run at her, anticipating the W, then sidestep as soon as you see it fired. Then use your W, Q, and autos to hit her a few times.
3) Movespeed Quints can be invaluable against skillshot mids. Also against jungler ganks. Yesterday I had a hilarious chase sequence where a Lee Sin was desperately trying to get behind me to ult, but couldn't cause I moved faster than him! Some people may call me a noob for using Movespeed Quints (cause SSONG used AP Quints), but I've always been more successful with Movespeed.
4) For whatever reason I find it easier to stutter-step with her default skin than with Aether Wing Kayle (their autoattack animations are different). Might be psychological though. Still working on mastering stutter-stepping in general.
1) Agreed 2) I think you meant the E? if the W starts firing on you, I don't believe you can sidestep anymore. Unless you meant to avoid the champion leash range for her Foxfire. 3) I prefer AP here as wel. 4) I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this as well. Aether Wing Kayle is really awesome but the auto animation is TERRIBLE. Base Kayle has a much more crisp animation but I blinged out on Aether Wing so w/e. =\
On October 06 2013 18:01 HughMyron wrote: Been grinding Kayle a lot these days, some new observations.
1) Top or Mid, ALWAYS start Flask/Ward/Pot, srsly. Junglers have a hardon for you, cause you're squishy and invariably push huehue.
2) Ahri is a popular mid, you should know how to fight her. It basically revolves around your ability to dodge her Charm. When you want to open aggression (again, BEWARE THE JANGLER), run at her, anticipating the W, then sidestep as soon as you see it fired. Then use your W, Q, and autos to hit her a few times.
3) Movespeed Quints can be invaluable against skillshot mids. Also against jungler ganks. Yesterday I had a hilarious chase sequence where a Lee Sin was desperately trying to get behind me to ult, but couldn't cause I moved faster than him! Some people may call me a noob for using Movespeed Quints (cause SSONG used AP Quints), but I've always been more successful with Movespeed.
4) For whatever reason I find it easier to stutter-step with her default skin than with Aether Wing Kayle (their autoattack animations are different). Might be psychological though. Still working on mastering stutter-stepping in general.
1) Agreed 2) I think you meant the E? if the W starts firing on you, I don't believe you can sidestep anymore. Unless you meant to avoid the champion leash range for her Foxfire. 3) I prefer AP here as wel. 4) I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this as well. Aether Wing Kayle is really awesome but the auto animation is TERRIBLE. Base Kayle has a much more crisp animation but I blinged out on Aether Wing so w/e. =\
What I meant was move erratically to dodge the Charm. I find it's easier to dodge skillshots when you anticipate them.
On October 06 2013 18:01 HughMyron wrote: Been grinding Kayle a lot these days, some new observations.
1) Top or Mid, ALWAYS start Flask/Ward/Pot, srsly. Junglers have a hardon for you, cause you're squishy and invariably push huehue.
2) Ahri is a popular mid, you should know how to fight her. It basically revolves around your ability to dodge her Charm. When you want to open aggression (again, BEWARE THE JANGLER), run at her, anticipating the W, then sidestep as soon as you see it fired. Then use your W, Q, and autos to hit her a few times.
3) Movespeed Quints can be invaluable against skillshot mids. Also against jungler ganks. Yesterday I had a hilarious chase sequence where a Lee Sin was desperately trying to get behind me to ult, but couldn't cause I moved faster than him! Some people may call me a noob for using Movespeed Quints (cause SSONG used AP Quints), but I've always been more successful with Movespeed.
4) For whatever reason I find it easier to stutter-step with her default skin than with Aether Wing Kayle (their autoattack animations are different). Might be psychological though. Still working on mastering stutter-stepping in general.
1) Agreed 2) I think you meant the E? if the W starts firing on you, I don't believe you can sidestep anymore. Unless you meant to avoid the champion leash range for her Foxfire. 3) I prefer AP here as wel. 4) I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this as well. Aether Wing Kayle is really awesome but the auto animation is TERRIBLE. Base Kayle has a much more crisp animation but I blinged out on Aether Wing so w/e. =\
What I meant was move erratically to dodge the Charm. I find it's easier to dodge skillshots when you anticipate them.
Right I figured as much. Ahri's E is actually her charm. Her W is her Foxfire.
Decided to get off my ass and grind some more Ranked, and Kayle carried me to Platinum!
Srsly tho I'm addicted to Movespeed Quints on her. Sure, they mean less damage in trades, but if they help you get that one extra autoattack off, they mean more damage in a trade!
Has anyone tried double Doran's (Ring into Dagger) on her top? A D4 guy from my old Ranked 5's team highly recommended it to me, and it felt pretty strong. Start flask/ward/pot, back and buy a ring for mana, and a blade for sustain and become an immovable rock in lane. After that, you can go straight Nashor's into a boots and a defensive item of your choice. Kayle is an insanely effective splitpusher midgame, and transitions into a really good teamfighter later on.
On October 16 2013 12:54 ticklishmusic wrote: Has anyone tried double Doran's (Ring into Dagger) on her top? A D4 guy from my old Ranked 5's team highly recommended it to me, and it felt pretty strong. Start flask/ward/pot, back and buy a ring for mana, and a blade for sustain and become an immovable rock in lane. After that, you can go straight Nashor's into a boots and a defensive item of your choice. Kayle is an insanely effective splitpusher midgame, and transitions into a really good teamfighter later on.
Yeah it's a pretty solid start imo. IIRC Vileroze used to do something similar on occasion in LCS, but that was Kayle Mid.
I prefer Kayle Top tbh. More action and violence. Kayle Mid is pretty good too, but her matchups are more tight and drawish unless you're playing against an assassin.
On June 24 2013 05:12 Bladeorade wrote: If someone wants to write the AP Guide I'll post it in the OP since AD Kayle has fallen way out of favor
Oh, I'd be willing to write it up haha. I'm only a Platinum, and I was hoping someone like Duocek or Z German or another Solo Queue Kayle Superstar could write it, but I'll do it if nobody else will. I've played Kayle regularly since Open Beta, and she's always been my favorite champion.
Here's a brief miniguide for me to organize my thoughts. I'll flesh this out after my exam I guess.
Overview: Kayle is a relatively simple champion to pick up, and it is easy to use her skills and learn to lasthit effectively with her. However, in order to master Kayle you will need to master stutter-stepping, positioning in teamfights, and executing good ultimates. Kayle is an excellent champion to play against assassins like Zed or Fizz, because you can effectively stop them from killing their intended targets. I recommend picking Kayle when your team already has reliable methods of initiating.
Abilities: P: Autoattack people to stack a shred on them, skill is not as bad as people say it is. Q: Powerful nuke on a low cooldown, and has a substantial slow on it. Max this first in most lanes. W: Heal is relatively weak early on, but the speed boost can help you E: Makes you ranged and your sword throws fire at people (makes no sense to me, but hey, this is League). This skill determines Kayle's power in lane. When it's down, you're really quite weak. Try not to spam this spell, use it when you want to trade or if you need it to lasthit/push. Max this first in farmlanes. R: Some people think this is a bad Zilean ult. They're wrong. Don't use this ult to save low-health people, use it to block large sums of damage on targets that the enemy has already committed on. For example, your Karthus is running into the middle of a fight, and the enemy is trying to blow him up. Ult him, watch them waste a few thousand damage on him before they stop focusing him, and laugh. This skill takes a lot of practice to use effectively.
Masteries: 21/9/0, 21/0/9, 30/0/0 are all viable. I'll put up mastery links later. The only constant is that you want to go ham on the offense tree.
Runes: Attack Speed Reds: AS for better pushing and more autoattacks, and these are the primary choice. Hybrid Pen is the best choice for earlygame damage against champions. Magic Pen is marginally better lategame (thanks to PhoenixVal for the calculations behind this!)
Armor Yellows: Textbook choice on pretty much all champions, Kayle likes these too because she will invariably take creep aggro while autoattack harassing in lane. mp/5 Yellows or HP/Level are viable against Kayle's lane counters (Orianna, Lux, Anivia, etc). You have no way to open aggression on these guys unless they're stupid, so you can use the Yellows of your choice.
Flat MR Yellows: Also the textbook choice against a magic damage foe to mitigate some of their damage. MR/Level is viable if you're not afraid of magic damage early. Flat AP is an option if you want to go full aggro in lane, or if they have one of those teams with negligible magic damage.
Flat AP Quints: Textbook Quints for Kayle, they buff your damage substantially. Movespeed Quints are my favorite, however, because they help quite a bit in lane positioning, dodging skillshots, evading jungler ganks, and getting off that autoattack that you wouldn't have got otherwise.
Skilling Order: R>Q>E>W in most cases, R>E>Q>W in farmlanes or if you have a disadvantage against the enemy laner and can't trade effectively against them.
Item Build: Kayle's build options are pretty limited. She's really only viable because Nashor's Tooth is one of the game's most efficient items, and she can effectively exploit it, so you have to have Nashor's. Anyways: Starting Items: Flask/Ward/Pot (most cases) or Doran's Ring/2 Pots (Yolo Ham Aggro, or a weak ganking jungler). Textbook Build: Boots, Nashor's Tooth, Lich Bane, Rabadon's Deathcap, Void Staff, Zhonya/QSS/GA.
You can buy an early Doran's Blade, another Doran's Ring, or even an early Seeker's Armguard as you see fit. For boots, do Zerker Greaves if you need them for pushing or sustained damage, but Sorc Shoes are preferred for more burst. Nashor's Tooth is everything Kayle needs. Sheen and then Lich Bane come next because they trivialise your mana costs and help you push and burst people/towers. Rabadon's Deathcap for monster AP, though you can move up Void Staff if against a tanky team. Void Staff is fairly self-explanatory, you get it against teams with a lot of MR. The final item is usually Zhonya's Hourglass for even more AP and the active, but there's room for Guardian's Angel or Mercurial Scimitar if you want to use them. To be honest, Zhonya's is sort of weird on a champion that likes to autoattack, so don't feel like you have to use it.
On October 16 2013 12:54 ticklishmusic wrote: Has anyone tried double Doran's (Ring into Dagger) on her top? A D4 guy from my old Ranked 5's team highly recommended it to me, and it felt pretty strong. Start flask/ward/pot, back and buy a ring for mana, and a blade for sustain and become an immovable rock in lane. After that, you can go straight Nashor's into a boots and a defensive item of your choice. Kayle is an insanely effective splitpusher midgame, and transitions into a really good teamfighter later on.
Does this set you too far back? You're 850gold farther from Nashor's Tooth -- do you make up for it with subsequent amazing lane presence?
On October 16 2013 12:54 ticklishmusic wrote: Has anyone tried double Doran's (Ring into Dagger) on her top? A D4 guy from my old Ranked 5's team highly recommended it to me, and it felt pretty strong. Start flask/ward/pot, back and buy a ring for mana, and a blade for sustain and become an immovable rock in lane. After that, you can go straight Nashor's into a boots and a defensive item of your choice. Kayle is an insanely effective splitpusher midgame, and transitions into a really good teamfighter later on.
Does this set you too far back? You're 850gold farther from Nashor's Tooth -- do you make up for it with subsequent amazing lane presence?
Honestly, if I went for a Flask start, I would buy one Doran's item maximum. If not, I usually like to get 2 Rings for the sustain.
I think Doran's Blade could also be handy in the Kassadin matchup, but that's about it IMO, I don't like it. Still, to each his own.
Oh, I'd be willing to write it up haha. I'm only a Platinum, and I was hoping someone like Duocek or Z German or another Solo Queue Kayle Superstar could write it, but I'll do it if nobody else will. I've played Kayle regularly since Open Beta, and she's always been my favorite champion.
Here's a brief miniguide for me to organize my thoughts. I'll flesh this out after my exam I guess.
Overview: Kayle is a relatively simple champion to pick up, and it is easy to use her skills and learn to lasthit effectively with her. However, in order to master Kayle you will need to master stutter-stepping, positioning in teamfights, and executing good ultimates. Kayle is an excellent champion to play against assassins like Zed or Fizz, because you can effectively stop them from killing their intended targets. I recommend picking Kayle when your team already has reliable methods of initiating.
Abilities: P: Autoattack people to stack a shred on them, skill is not as bad as people say it is. Q: Powerful nuke on a low cooldown, and has a substantial slow on it. Max this first in most lanes. W: Heal is relatively weak early on, but the speed boost can help you E: Makes you ranged and your sword throws fire at people (makes no sense to me, but hey, this is League). This skill determines Kayle's power in lane. When it's down, you're really quite weak. Try not to spam this spell, use it when you want to trade or if you need it to lasthit/push. Max this first in farmlanes. R: Some people think this is a bad Zilean ult. They're wrong. Don't use this ult to save low-health people, use it to block large sums of damage on targets that the enemy has already committed on. For example, your Karthus is running into the middle of a fight, and the enemy is trying to blow him up. Ult him, watch them waste a few thousand damage on him before they stop focusing him, and laugh. This skill takes a lot of practice to use effectively.
Masteries: 21/9/0, 21/0/9, 30/0/0 are all viable. I'll put up mastery links later. The only constant is that you want to go ham on the offense tree.
Runes: Attack Speed Reds: AS for better pushing and more autoattacks, and these are the primary choice. Hybrid Pen is the best choice for earlygame damage against champions. Magic Pen is marginally better lategame (thanks to PhoenixVal for the calculations behind this!)
Armor Yellows: Textbook choice on pretty much all champions, Kayle likes these too because she will invariably take creep aggro while autoattack harassing in lane. mp/5 Yellows or HP/Level are viable against Kayle's lane counters (Orianna, Lux, Anivia, etc). You have no way to open aggression on these guys unless they're stupid, so you can use the Yellows of your choice.
Flat MR Yellows: Also the textbook choice against a magic damage foe to mitigate some of their damage. MR/Level is viable if you're not afraid of magic damage early. Flat AP is an option if you want to go full aggro in lane, or if they have one of those teams with negligible magic damage.
Flat AP Quints: Textbook Quints for Kayle, they buff your damage substantially. Movespeed Quints are my favorite, however, because they help quite a bit in lane positioning, dodging skillshots, evading jungler ganks, and getting off that autoattack that you wouldn't have got otherwise.
Skilling Order: R>Q>E>W in most cases, R>E>Q>W in farmlanes or if you have a disadvantage against the enemy laner and can't trade effectively against them.
Item Build: Kayle's build options are pretty limited. She's really only viable because Nashor's Tooth is one of the game's most efficient items, and she can effectively exploit it, so you have to have Nashor's. Anyways: Starting Items: Flask/Ward/Pot (most cases) or Doran's Ring/2 Pots (Yolo Ham Aggro, or a weak ganking jungler). Textbook Build: Boots, Nashor's Tooth, Lich Bane, Rabadon's Deathcap, Void Staff, Zhonya/QSS/GA.
You can buy an early Doran's Blade, another Doran's Ring, or even an early Seeker's Armguard as you see fit. For boots, do Zerker Greaves if you need them for pushing or sustained damage, but Sorc Shoes are preferred for more burst. Nashor's Tooth is everything Kayle needs. Sheen and then Lich Bane come next because they trivialise your mana costs and help you push and burst people/towers. Rabadon's Deathcap for monster AP, though you can move up Void Staff if against a tanky team. Void Staff is fairly self-explanatory, you get it against teams with a lot of MR. The final item is usually Zhonya's Hourglass for even more AP and the active, but there's room for Guardian's Angel or Mercurial Scimitar if you want to use them. To be honest, Zhonya's is sort of weird on a champion that likes to autoattack, so don't feel like you have to use it.
I'll do the rest later.
I have a huge Excel spreadsheet I made up for different Kayle build damages with 6 seconds of straight attacking. Greaves are very slightly better than Sorc Shoes until you have 6 items. They're cheaper, push faster, and do more damage overall for most of the game. The only time you'd want Sorc Shoes is if you can literally only throw Q's and not auto at all.
I also disagree with ever maxing E first. You'll push faster yes, but even with maxing Q and leaving E at 1 point pushing out a wave is never really an issue for Kayle. You need to get in like 5 auto attacks more than you would normally to make up the damage you lose from maxing E over Q (i.e. if you get in a Q and 2 autos, maxing E you would need to get in a Q and 7 autos to match the damage). It will save you mana though, since E is the only spell that doesn't have a scaling mana cost.
Also if you want to play full Burst Mage Kayle you can go Nashor's Lichbane Dcap DFG Void and literally 2 shot carries with no MR. DFG -> E (Lichbane proc) -> Q You can use W for another Lichbane proc and the speed boost to catch them if they survived.
I'm actually kind of surprised how much burst a Q auto does from Kayle with just 2 AP items of the following 4(void, nash, lichbane, DFG). I feel like the math must be bugged.
On October 19 2013 10:09 Magus wrote: I have a huge Excel spreadsheet I made up for different Kayle build damages with 6 seconds of straight attacking. Greaves are very slightly better than Sorc Shoes until you have 6 items. They're cheaper, push faster, and do more damage overall for most of the game. The only time you'd want Sorc Shoes is if you can literally only throw Q's and not auto at all.
I also disagree with ever maxing E first. You'll push faster yes, but even with maxing Q and leaving E at 1 point pushing out a wave is never really an issue for Kayle. You need to get in like 5 auto attacks more than you would normally to make up the damage you lose from maxing E over Q (i.e. if you get in a Q and 2 autos, maxing E you would need to get in a Q and 7 autos to match the damage). It will save you mana though, since E is the only spell that doesn't have a scaling mana cost.
Also if you want to play full Burst Mage Kayle you can go Nashor's Lichbane Dcap DFG Void and literally 2 shot carries with no MR. DFG -> E (Lichbane proc) -> Q You can use W for another Lichbane proc and the speed boost to catch them if they survived.
Hmmmm, I always liked Zerker Greaves more than Sorc Shoes, even though all the guides said to get Sorc Shoes when possible. Interesting.
The issue with E is not pushing, it's pushing fast enough. I would only max E against the utility carry mids that Kayle can't really go aggressive on (Orianna, Lux, Anivia, Xerath, etc). For the most part, they all push pretty fast (except Lux), so I max E just to push the wave back, or even outpush them so I can go roam and/or kill jungle creeps (where E is preferable).
I never was a fan of DFG on Kayle and diving enemy carries, it's too Flash-dependent to pull off reliably for my tastes (if Kayle and LeBlanc could swap W's, on the other hand...), and too vulnerable to CC. Still, I can see it working, and really it's just a 1 item difference that won't happen in most games anyways.
Seriously though, Orianna is the main reason Kayle is so unpopular in competitive. Forget Morgana, Orianna is Kayle's real nemesis.
On October 19 2013 15:20 Magus wrote: The only lane I have issue with as Kayle is Xerath. Everything else is fine. Orianna's at my level kinda suck though so...
I wouldn't say that Kayle gets shut out against ANY laner, she can farm pretty well in most matchups. But she can't really be aggressive against the long-range mages.
Kayle's biggest enemy is the jungler imo, she's easy to camp, and if she gets down a kill things get kinda rough on her. That's mostly an issue on toplane, which snowballs really harshly though.
I tried the ring -> blade start top and it honestly felt weak. Everything went alright but I could see that 475 being better used for a quicker stinger.
Ok, second part of the guide where I cover the following:
Solo/Lane/Jungle Options Key levels to play aggressive Common matchups What else here do people want to see?
Kayle at Mid: Kayle is generally seen as a midlaner. Mid is probably her best lane, because the short distance makes it harder to gank. Generally, Kayle's mid potential revolves around getting into range to use Q and E, and using her ult to negate enemy burst. Here are some common matchups for her.
Zed: Zed can't really do much to Kayle, your ult nullifies his ult, and you can harass him at range. However, because he's Zed, he's still able to farm safely.
Fizz: The main thing to watch here is the level 6 power spike. If he hits level 6 before you he can easily kill you, so be careful. Otherwise, use your ult to negate his burst, and harass him at range with autoattacks (because he's still a melee with no sustain).
Ahri: This is a skill matchup that depends on whether you dodge Charm. If the Ahri plays safe and only uses Charm reactionarily, you can't really open aggression on her. If you can dodge her Charm you destroy her. Run Movespeed Quints and move erratically!
Kassadin: Kayle isn't bothered by Kassadin too much because of her sustained autoattack damage, just be sure to fire Qs off quickly. Against Kassadin I would run an AD-heavy runepage to prey on his weak base armor (and avoid his very strong passive). If he plays safe, you can easily shove him out and go roam.
Orianna/Lux/Anivia/Xerath: Kayle's nemeses. The long-range utility mages will outtrade you and stop you from returning damage to them. Fortunately, it's not too easy for them to kill you or shut you down. I would max E in these lanes, shove quickly, and go farm wraiths or roam, because it's not productive for you to stay in such a lane.
Kayle at Top: Kayle at Toplane might as well be a completely different champion than Kayle at Mid. While Kayle at Mid revolved around getting into range to trade, Kayle at Top revolves around getting OUT of the Bruiser's range. The general strategy with Kayle here is to use Q, W, and E(aa) to kite enemy Bruisers and outtrade them. Ward the lane bushes if you're having some trouble. Additionally, try not to get caught with E on cooldown at inopportune moments, Bruisers can really punish you when you go for cs in melee range! I'll go ahead and cover some of the more common matchups.
WARNING: Top Lane snowballs hard. If you die to a jungle gank, the enemy will get MR and more AD and you will really suffer through the rest of the laning phase. If that happens, just try to farm, Kayle is a powerful teamfight champion later in the game.
Jax: If he jumps on you without E activated, you outtrade. If he jumps on you with E activated, he outtrades. His E has a relatively long cooldown, so try to trade with him in those cases. But be warned: after about level 11 or so he can 1v1 you anyways. If you see him activating stun and instantly jumping, get behind your creeps, and after he jumps you can whack him several times.
Shen: Boring matchup, Kayle wins, just be sure to shove hard to punish his ults.
Renekton: The most powerful toplaner in the game, but Kayle doesn't exactly lose to him. Try to stand aside from your creepline to avoid his Slice/Stun/Nuke/Dice combo.
Riven: God I hate his champion. Kayle has an advantage here, but it can be difficult to execute on it. The trick is to play safe and use E and Q when she goes in for lasthits. If you try to open aggression on her, Riven can jump into range and punish you for it.
Any Melee without a Gapcloser: Except for Yorick, Kayle poops on all these guys.
Jungle: Kayle Jungle is pretty troll IMO, but whatever.
21/9/0 masteries, AS Reds/Armor Yellows/AP Blues/AP Quints, Max E first, focus on clearing camps and getting farm, Meteos style. Good lategame jungler, but relies on your team to bring the CC.
Support: Troll pick, only really works with Caitlyn, against Leona or Thresh, or in a 2v1 lane. Max Q and go ham.
Kayle jungle may not be optimal and is certainly not expected in the current meta which would have a cc bot with high base stats damage in the jungle 90% of the time. But saying it's a troll pick as would a Sona jungle be is going a bit too far. I'd see Kayle as an Evelynn with utility skill a bit weaker on Kayle but you can use them on your allies.
Kayle is really strong with double buff, have good burst, decent sustained damage constant slow from red buff on a speed buffed ranged champ with a stronger slow on the Q engage. A melee top laner without a high mobility escape skill WILL die if he doesn't have flash or even with it if he pushes a bit too much and his jungler isn't there to save him to a doublebuff Kayle gank. The weakness of Kayle is being as resistant as a piece of paper so you don't want to go in fight in equal number without your ult to prevent you do to die from a focus fire from 2 guys, when you don't have double buff, farming the jungle and counterganking as soon as you see the other jungler comes into one of your lane is to Kayle advantage because she have quite some utility skills with the heal/speed buff and being a ranged allows you to make plays saving your mates and turn the gank around.
To jungle you should max Q first because E gives you less damage on single target and your lvl 1 E with AP scaling already kills the little jungle creeps, it's better for jungle farming and for ganking. I max the heal second because when you don't go for atk speed item but invest in AP item like going for spirit of the spectral wraith or Lichbane or Deathcap you heal for a significant amount and coupled with your ult you can really destroy 2v2 or 3v3 fight in midgame.
Then again some game you'll be against a Lee Sin top, Fizz mid so you won't kill someone there and your botlane goes 0-4 in 6minutes so you know you'll get shred to pieces if anyone hits you for more than 4secs.
On October 20 2013 07:51 Iblis wrote: Kayle jungle may not be optimal and is certainly not expected in the current meta which would have a cc bot with high base stats damage in the jungle 90% of the time. But saying it's a troll pick as would a Sona jungle be is going a bit too far. I'd see Kayle as an Evelynn with utility skill a bit weaker on Kayle but you can use them on your allies.
Kayle is really strong with double buff, have good burst, decent sustained damage constant slow from red buff on a speed buffed ranged champ with a stronger slow on the Q engage. A melee top laner without a high mobility escape skill WILL die if he doesn't have flash or even with it if he pushes a bit too much and his jungler isn't there to save him to a doublebuff Kayle gank. The weakness of Kayle is being as resistant as a piece of paper so you don't want to go in fight in equal number without your ult to prevent you do to die from a focus fire from 2 guys, when you don't have double buff, farming the jungle and counterganking as soon as you see the other jungler comes into one of your lane is to Kayle advantage because she have quite some utility skills with the heal/speed buff and being a ranged allows you to make plays saving your mates and turn the gank around.
To jungle you should max Q first because E gives you less damage on single target and your lvl 1 E with AP scaling already kills the little jungle creeps, it's better for jungle farming and for ganking. I max the heal second because when you don't go for atk speed item but invest in AP item like going for spirit of the spectral wraith or Lichbane or Deathcap you heal for a significant amount and coupled with your ult you can really destroy 2v2 or 3v3 fight in midgame.
Then again some game you'll be against a Lee Sin top, Fizz mid so you won't kill someone there and your botlane goes 0-4 in 6minutes so you know you'll get shred to pieces if anyone hits you for more than 4secs.
Hmmm, interesting. I used to jungle Kayle, but it really puts pressure on the rest of your team to bring the utility that a jungler usually would bring. It's definitely playable tho in my opinion too.
I played a lot of jungle Kayle before they nerfed her ult range. For some reason that really stopped me from playing it any more and I've had success in mid/top since then.
Her ult range was complete bullshit before the nerfs though. You could literally ult someone from a screen away. You aren't even in the fight but you just make the person dying invincible and voila you've turned the whole fight around and then you actually get there and start trucking people and it's even sillier.
ZzPhoenix (D1) is playing Kayle with Movespeed Quints and 9/0/21 masteries, Flash/Teleport. It's an interesting setup, to be sure, and it's certainly working for him.
I prefer AP Quints against Zed though because he can disengage pretty easily from fights with his shadow thingy, so you really can't get into an extended trade with him if he plays more passively. In other matchups I always run Movespeed.
On November 03 2013 12:30 HughMyron wrote: ZzPhoenix (D1) is playing Kayle with Movespeed Quints and 9/0/21 masteries, Flash/Teleport. It's an interesting setup, to be sure, and it's certainly working for him.
I prefer AP Quints against Zed though because he can disengage pretty easily from fights with his shadow thingy, so you really can't get into an extended trade with him if he plays more passively. In other matchups I always run Movespeed.
I bet he's doing teleport quints just to survive laning rather than to get kills. Is he going top? Or who is he facing mid?
On November 03 2013 13:36 obesechicken13 wrote: I bet he's doing teleport quints just to survive laning rather than to get kills. Is he going top? Or who is he facing mid?
I've done the flash teleport setup before.
He's doing it against everyone from Zed to Orianna. He mostly uses his Teleport to shove mid and clear jungle to rack up a cs lead (he maxes E), then teleport bot lane to counter the enemy roam.
On November 03 2013 13:36 obesechicken13 wrote: I bet he's doing teleport quints just to survive laning rather than to get kills. Is he going top? Or who is he facing mid?
I've done the flash teleport setup before.
He's doing it against everyone from Zed to Orianna. He mostly uses his Teleport to shove mid and clear jungle to rack up a cs lead (he maxes E), then teleport bot lane to counter the enemy roam.
Yeah, I'm finding that most of the high-level Kayle's play fairly drawish lanes at mid, max E, clear the jungle, and focus on farming as much as possible.
I think in Season 4, people are saying that midlane will be more about roaming because there will be more objectives to contest, so Kayle will pretty much have to max E if she goes mid, or risk losing in waveclear+roam battles.
Brand can be beaten because his CC has a projectile delay, meaning you can self-cast ult when you see it if you're in danger of dying. Annie will easily beat Kayle though, because you cannot do anything about Tibbers (no projectile delay).
I keep having great games as jungle kayle. If you can get your spirit of the wraith running and mobi boots, you can get around the map like a demon and farm insanely quick. I've been experimenting with runing very, very agressively on her and it works quite well- like not even taking armor runes, hybrid pen marks, ap quints, ap per level seals and glyphs. You burn camps down so quickly, between heal and vamp you just don't take damage and your ganks go from solid to terrifying. You melt like wet paper, but if you go rageblade as a second item the 40% sv+ lifesteal when your guinsoo's triggers combined with the time your ult gives you to make use of it generally means you can outduel anyone by that point.
On November 05 2013 07:21 Thereisnosaurus wrote: I keep having great games as jungle kayle. If you can get your spirit of the wraith running and mobi boots, you can get around the map like a demon and farm insanely quick. I've been experimenting with runing very, very agressively on her and it works quite well- like not even taking armor runes, hybrid pen marks, ap quints, ap per level seals and glyphs. You burn camps down so quickly, between heal and vamp you just don't take damage and your ganks go from solid to terrifying. You melt like wet paper, but if you go rageblade as a second item the 40% sv+ lifesteal when your guinsoo's triggers combined with the time your ult gives you to make use of it generally means you can outduel anyone by that point.
My Jungle kayle is little different, similar though. I got movespeed quints + hybrid pen reds, flat armour/mr. Run a mastery page similar to a kennen page, ap with bit or arpen + ad throw in.
I go SotEL/Mobi boots > Nashors >Lichbane>hourglass if it gets this far. My build used to be Sotel>nashors>liandrys but I stopped cos I was looking for better burst, I have been looking at Spectral Wraith but I never build it on any jungler cos I thought it was bad.
it's amazing XD. I mean, it's ok as a jungle item in that it keeps you topped off (which is really necessary given how squishy kayle is- you want to be able to get stunned and not get instagibbed before you can ult-troll when the stun wears off), and the smite CDR is not insignificant if you play like I do, which is to power around the jungle using your heal and clear the shit out of all the things. It lets you invest more in offense and not take those defensive runes which don't really help you during ganks or late game teamfights.
then, once you get a couple more items (I almost always go rageblade second and then either lichbane or nashors) that spellvamp becomes incredible in fights. You stay alive way longer than you should and can really mess with people's heads, going down to like 100 health and then smiting a nearby creep, Q and W-ing to get back like 500 health in a spike- more if you have rageblade triggered. Even just the slighter, more general vamp from autoing is really good at fooling people.
All this and Kayle scales with AP far better than AD these days. SotEL is good, but I really think SotSW is the far better choice on kayle, at least if you're planning on playing her farm heavy and then aim to burn squishies down quick in teamfights.
So I had an epiphany. Maxing E vs champs that can dodge your Q is definitely the way to go. Makes the Fizz lane a lot easier at least. Not sure if I'd max it over Q against a Zed though.
But ya, vs Fizz you can just shove and force him to decide whether or not to burn his E on clearing the wave or saving it for dodging Q and missing cs to tower.
On November 05 2013 14:53 Magus wrote: So I had an epiphany. Maxing E vs champs that can dodge your Q is definitely the way to go. Makes the Fizz lane a lot easier at least. Not sure if I'd max it over Q against a Zed though.
But ya, vs Fizz you can just shove and force him to decide whether or not to burn his E on clearing the wave or saving it for dodging Q and missing cs to tower.
Was thinking about this. You still need to get 5 autos for every Q if you want the single damage from E to be equal to the damage from Q. Often in the GP vs Shen matchup, I get close to Shen so if I bait out his shield I can shoot him later, and if he doesn't shield, he won't be able to react in time to my Q. Similarly, if you're against Fizz, you can wait for fizz to use his E before using Q if that does more damage.
It really depends on the number of times you get to Q and E.
I would still max Q vs a fizz, because now he has to make a choice between dodging Q, farming and gapclosing you. I'd like to do the math some day but my feeling is that the extra damage on E procs is not worth maxing it over Q. Maybe going 2 pts early in E could help with shoving though as this would be around your stinger/codex timing.
Besides fizz there are several matchups where you don't want to throw your Q on every cooldown because people need the slow off cooldown to trade. People still tend to max Q.
Ughh was just playing a Kayle vs Nid matchup. The matchup didn't matter much. But for the first time ever I got a lichbane first and I loved it. Lichbane has a .75 ratio. I know a lot of people max Q on Kayle in this thread because even before its slow scaled it would require 5 autos before E was better than Q. Well lichbane is the same thing. 5 autos to break even with Nash. Not once did I run out of E's attack range buff during a fight.
I got a deathfire grasp next item. It was awesome too. Finally I got a nashor's but it didn't feel useful. Go figure. Like that Nash could have been a gunblade or a void staff. Maybe with those I could kill Vayne faster.
Anyways we lost because Renekton Janna and I zoned in on trying to kill Nidalee instead of taking mid turret and safely backing after Sivir got bot inhib. But the items helped.
Kayle straddles the line between burst damage and sustained damage. For once I tried leaning closer to the burst side and I liked it.
On February 13 2014 12:54 nosliw wrote: kayle nerfed hard on Q though....
She got big buffs for support though, most notably heal for midgame (and bigger speed boost) as well as ult cost changed from 100 to 0 at level 6. It was difficult at best to actively participate in zoning/poking etc with having to blow mana to do damage past melee range, i'd imagine it not to be so difficult now around level 4-6. I don't know how otherwise good/terrible she is around pro level though
The Q nerf is not noticeable until lategame really. The base damage is still high enough to be completely ridiculous, and the movespeed on W is completely insane now. So easy to chase people.
You lose around 250 or so damage off of each Q (not counting resistances) when you hit 6 items because of the nerf. Good thing you do insane sustained damage and still have a massive burst with DFG and Lich Bane.
On February 16 2014 12:53 KissBlade wrote: 250 is a lot of damage ...
I mean you mention the base damage on Q is ridiculous when it's 260 base.
You're losing 250 off of 900 or so. So, ya, it sucks, but you're still bursting really hard. Plus the Lich Bane follow up burst hasn't been nerfed at all. You are still hitting like a truck.
What do people get on jungle Kayle as their gold generation item? I've generally been doing Spirit of the Elder Lizard. I tried Spirit of the Spectral Wraith and it felt okay, but I feel like the ramp up time is a wee bit longer. Not sure if I like that tradeoff.
Played about double digit worth of games with Devourer Kayle and here's what I found most successful.
EQWEER, R > E > Q > W AS/Flat Armor/CDRpL/AS 21/9/0 Ranger's > Devourer > Stinger > Nashor > Hurricane > BotRK > GA. Fit in Zerker's where you see fit. It's basically something you resort to finishing if you die early on and/or forced to base early. More AS/MS never hurts, so it's technically not a bad early buy.
Opening route is Gromp (smite), Blue (used both pots), Scuttle, Red (smite). Rocks if you're healthy enough, otherwise base for Ranger's. You have to kite a lot at Blue and Red, especially during the first round. Do Scuttle if you're low on hp and/or when you need to let a pot run its full duration.
Idea behind this is just all AS and CDR. CDR is probably more important because you want to have E perma-on in team fights. Every offensive item has AS, so you'll be hitting like a mack truck. GA gives you the opportunity to ulti an ally if you want but if you want to 1v9 mode, go into a fight and start chunking things with E. Q the main target you want to kill first, W for the MS first, health as a secondary. With GA and ulti at your disposal, you let GA pop once your QW are on cooldown (E is always on if you're full build). Once you revive, ulti yourself and do another rotation of your skills and you should be able to heal back to full with AoE BotRK life steal while killing the entire enemy team. Also, don't be afraid to channel your inner Udyr. Pushing a lane by yourself is fine as long as you let your team know to defend a turret as four. You mow town turrets easily after 2 AS items. I prefer Elixir of Wrath as final item.
Gromp->Blue->Wolves->Birds->Red(->Crab) EWQ -> R > E > Q > W
You finish just under lv 4, and with ~700 gold at ~3:45. You can add a crab after to get Lv4 and ~825g at ~4:12.
Kite blue a lot. Kite wolves a bit (they block each other from chasing you) and punch little wolves once each after E wears off to kill them. Punch two little birds with E on and then hit the big one and the splash will be enough. You're pretty low when you start the crab but decent HP by the end of it because of W spam during blue buff (two W's during crab kill). Could possibly do a lv4 half-HP gank if you needed to.
Build-wise I've also been going for Blue smite to gank better before I get devourer and CDR boots instead of Zerks (with one more 10% CDR item or blue buff you hit the 37.5% you need for permanent E). Haven't tested much in real games yet so build stuff I'm less confident on (Essence Reaver probably isn't as convenient as it is in bots games) than the early jungling.
really like your build neo. I have been trying out scaling cdr with scaling ability glyphs I think it might be a bit better but not much. I tried gunblade over botrk and find botrk is much better in both sustain and damage
Moved on to other Dev Junglers this week but when I get back to Kayle, I'll probably test out Wit's+Lucidity vs Nashor's+Zerker. The main reason you get Nashor's (and complete it as your first AS item) is obviously for the CDR. But Wit's is probably the better item if you can ignore the CDR on Nashors (from Lucidity). You'll be 5% CDR short but I think the MR shred from Wit's makes up for it.
Too bad none of the elixirs give CDR any more. If you manage to be a bigger carry than your Mid, you could always hog Blue to get closer to 40%.
Gunblade is cute on paper but leave it for hybrid champs like Akali who have no use for AS. Botrk > Gunblade by far.
Played a few more Jungle Kayle games this weekend with Wit's+Lucidity and I think it trumps my original build going Nashor's+Zerkers. I think around level 11, you end up with about 25% CDR (which translates into ~2s cooldown for your E between Righteous Fury finishing and the next time you can cast it again). Not perma-on but it's close enough. I definitely do see Wit's as a superior offensive option over Nashor's obv, so the latter is cut.
I'm not sure if there's any reason to add in AP items at all (e.g. Deathcap, Zhonya's, Void?). I can usually six item (meaning full item slots, swap Ranger's for Skirmisher's, upgrade trinket and boots) around 30 mins. If I do cut an item, I can't see any of the offensive items going out, so I might consider Zhonya's when GA is down? Every other item has pretty essential utility stats otherwise. AS, CDR, Life Steal. I can't see extra AP is an upgrade. o/
I've had (and seen) a lot of success with AP Jungle Kayle (still with devourer). A large reason for this is the full, massive Rylai's slow that ALL OF KAYLE'S AUTOS PROC (thanks to Righteous Fury).
This shit is bonkers guys. If you need full tips on how to do it, Alex Ich in particular is having a lot of success with it. Mostly AS runes with some scaling health, 30-0-0 masteries, and then a quick nashors into rylais into full AP. It's pretty terrifying.
First of all, you don't need to kite blue that much since you can bug it. It is very easy to do a full clear of 6 camps before backing.
Secondly, Wit's End is awesome.
Thirdly, E > W > Q with Stalker's is probably better since the heal helps you with sustain. You are not going to build much AP anyway so Q isn't that great.
On July 22 2015 02:27 Sufficiency wrote: First of all, you don't need to kite blue that much since you can bug it. It is very easy to do a full clear of 6 camps before backing.
Secondly, Wit's End is awesome.
Thirdly, E > W > Q with Stalker's is probably better since the heal helps you with sustain. You are not going to build much AP anyway so Q isn't that great.
How is it relevant if you are building ap or not?It just gives flat change same as w.It is more slow+dmg vs more heal+speed.
Not a fan of wit's end tbh.Kayle seems to be pretty broken though.You just need someone to go in like a retard so you don't have to instantly ult yourself.
On July 22 2015 02:27 Sufficiency wrote: First of all, you don't need to kite blue that much since you can bug it. It is very easy to do a full clear of 6 camps before backing.
Secondly, Wit's End is awesome.
Thirdly, E > W > Q with Stalker's is probably better since the heal helps you with sustain. You are not going to build much AP anyway so Q isn't that great.
How is it relevant if you are building ap or not?It just gives flat change same as w.It is more slow+dmg vs more heal+speed.
Not a fan of wit's end tbh.Kayle seems to be pretty broken though.You just need someone to go in like a retard so you don't have to instantly ult yourself.
I think Wits' End gives more damage as a single item since it's 42 magic damage, attack speed, and MR shred. You could get a dcap, but it's far more expensive and takes a bit more time to ramp up. Wits' End is simple, immediate, raw power - which I think is more suitable at least for some situations.
I've been liking Lucidity+Wit's immediately following Devourer. The nice thing is that it's a very simple build path and you can usually back and have enough for 1 or 2 Daggers.
I'll probably try Rylai's again but it felt subpar to rush it instead of the usual AS items. Sure, it gives AoE slow but it noticeably reduces your ability to 1v3/1v4 compared to when you have Wit's/Hurrican finished. I wouldn't even put it ahead of GA for reasons I've stated previously in this thread. I guess it's a nice 6th item if GA is down. Health + AoE slow.
Devourer->Wit's->Nashor's is the most damage. Her itemization path going the devourer route is pretty unfriendly for Dcap, and the Rylai's slow is kinda overrated on her, I think. I mean, it's nice, but in a teamfight situation, the highest DPS is most likely what you want. I'd take it sparingly as a last item when I didn't need GA, had to get something defensive, and their damage was mixed.
Wit's End as an item on regular champs is shit because you won't stack it quickly enough and the base damage isn't enough. It's terrifically efficient in the rare situation you get 5 AAs off. Sated Kayle doesn't have that issue. You get efficient stacks in two or three AAs and have insane base damage on those AAs.
From what I have seen the best is devourer>nashors>hurricane>rylai with cdr boots at some point.Don't think dcap is a good item dunno why you mention it even.
On July 23 2015 11:06 Sufficiency wrote: Each Runaan's bolt also gives you one stack of Wits' End, FYI. You just need 1-2 autos to fully stack it for the most part. It's a great item.
But it'll only steal mr from the primary target?
I didn't know Rylais got changed to 40% slow on AoE abilities. Will that trigger on Kayle's main target? I'm not entirely convinced it's better than the 30% from Mallet if it doesn't slow your primary target. Ok, did some thinking. It will trigger on the main target. Now I have to compare the stats.
+100 ability power +400 health
+30 attack damage +700 health
I'd probably get the Rylai's and cry about missing 300 health. Edit: In case anyone else missed it, slows no longer stack :/
Another question. If you're doing on-hit kayle, all your damage is magic except your base autos, runaan's 10 damage, and blade of the ruined king. What if you skipped blade for void staff or something else?
Options: Void Staff, Death Cap, Ludens, Lich Bane, etc... Devourer, Nashors, Wit's End, Rylai's, Boots, Last Item. Nvm, there are 6 items already: Devourer, Nashors, Wit's End, Rylai's, Runaan's, Boots
@Neo, getting lucidity doesn't put you at 40% CDR. Even 35% CDR gives you this noticeable downtime on your E (theoretical .4 seconds) which can mess you up in teamfights. If you're not used to it, you'll run into the enemy melees trying to auto them with your non-flamed up sword. If you are used to it, you miss out on a couple autos.
I wouldn't delay devourer either since it buffs all your on-hit by 50% when finished, and it's a stacking item, so it's better to finish it earlier. It's also a jungle item, so if I assume you're in the jungle, you've tied up a lot of gold in your machete that isn't put into combat stats, and you won't get that investment back until you've finished your jungle item.
I think both Rylai's and Runaan's are replaceable depending on the game. Nashor's/Wit's/Devourer are core though, and Runaan's is probably the best teamfight item. Lichbane is really underwhelming with such low ap. Void is mostly outclassed by the EHP and additional pen of Abyssal.
On July 24 2015 04:44 Caiada wrote: Lucidity/Nashor's/5% in masteries is 40%.
I think both Rylai's and Runaan's are replaceable depending on the game. Nashor's/Wit's/Devourer are core though, and Runaan's is probably the best teamfight item. Lichbane is really underwhelming with such low ap. Void is mostly outclassed by the EHP and additional pen of Abyssal.
Neo's skipping Nashors and relying on 15% from runes.
Had a game today where I felt more underwhelming. Still felt stronger than the melee bruiser class, but much less powerful than I had in previous games. Maybe I jumped the bandwagon on sated.
I started playing again, Kayle is still strong as AD or AS. So much has changed in the 2 years I havent played jeez I'll update this guide if there is any interest
I feel like Kayle is pretty strong still, her ult is very good against the assassin meta. You just need good reflexes to ult the person getting targeted