My initial thoughts are that she feels like a twisted fate type champion, very strong sustained damage and utility through a fight, but super vulnerable if caught hard. She loses the global team support and utility but gets stronger focused power.

She also feels like a similar champ in terms of build, I can certainly see a lot of lichbane/zhonyas/twin shadows etc on her, similarly to TF.

Her combos are deceptively strong, particularly R>W>E that does a shitload of damage and keeps you up through someone attempting to finish you off while making sure you get the root into Q combo terrifyingly well.

nosliw

United States2716 Posts

March 30 2013 06:39 GMT

#84

you max W?

Tooplark

United States3977 Posts

March 30 2013 08:11 GMT

#85

As sad as I am about this utter butchery of one of my favorite characters (WHY YOU STUPID RUN AND NO DIGNIFIED STRIDE) it seems that Q (WHY YOU GENERIC COMBO BURST MAGE NOW?) doesn't trigger tower aggro currently (WHERE IS MY FREE 50-100000 AP, WHERE IS MY 12 SEC CD MANTRA THAT HOLDS 2 CHARGES).

Aldrovandi

United States211 Posts

March 30 2013 08:21 GMT

#86

I think he's referring to your combo being a mantra'd w followed by e, not skilling w over q or e. The mantra heal from w is the same regardless of level, which I think is it's most important point since q is the same damage on a much lower cooldown.

dogmatix

Australia339 Posts

March 30 2013 10:02 GMT

#87

i miss old karma :<

OhTwoMise

United States164 Posts

March 30 2013 12:15 GMT

#88

Karma definitely doesn't feel like Karma anymore. The old playstyle revolved largely around being a lane bully with incredible shove and the ability to win the small jungle skirmishes these two things enable.

Now she's kind of a homogenized utility caster, which I guess is fine. The niche is already well-occupied, though. I can't see anything she brings to the table that Lux/Orianna (and to a lesser extent, Morganna) don't, and they have plenty that Karma doesn't. She "only" has the one skillshot, so I could see arguing for her reliability, but she's still heavily skillshot-reliant. Am I missing something? Is there a compelling reason to run Karma over Lux other than you like the Mantra gimmick?

The Mantra gimmick also feels significantly more shallow to me now, but that may just be because I haven't played with it enough.

dogmatix

Australia339 Posts

March 30 2013 13:11 GMT

#89

i just cant believe they got rid of her passive, i mean wtf. Much fun was had with that passive and now its boring.

If they just gave her current W (without the mantra heal) to her old kit it wouldve been awesome

sylverfyre

United States8298 Posts

March 30 2013 15:15 GMT

#90

Really? I felt like her old passive was boring as fuck. ~30ish AP at mid health levels, 100 if you got really low and you're high level really isn't all that much. Her new passive is actually interactive and rewards harass.

I really like the new mantra (levels up to 4) and the fact that it REALLY influences her abilities, rather than only significantly influencing the ability you leveled up. Also her powercurve is no longer awful because of needing level 11 to get what most people get at level 9, and other people having a real ultimate that really turned the tides of a fight, which the only thing you could say the old ulti did is a low health mantra shield (mantra shield still feels really good, even if you level shield late.)

We were having some pretty good success with karma support, maxing shield first. AOE shield+speed boost is really good in teamfights, her CC/damage is pretty solid. There were a few times that i was like 'wtf free shurelias thats so good' especially on retreat.

Leeto

United States1320 Posts

March 30 2013 16:16 GMT

#91

I really miss the old Karma as well. She feels like a completely different hero now. They could have kept old Karma and released this new hero (with some tweaks) as some other Ionian princess or whatever. Without going into whether the old one or new one is stronger, the new Karma just doesn't have the same feel to me.

greggy

United Kingdom1483 Posts

March 30 2013 17:37 GMT

#92

I liked the old q better, but I think the change in other skills is good. e is really strong with the massive speed boost and w is pretty strong too in small skirmishes.

I think the ultimate (hue) problem is that she just doesn't have enough damage in a prolonged teamfight though. you want to open with RE pretty much every time and if mantra does come up again then you probably want RW for the heal. RQ, although a pretty decent combo coupled with w snare in a 1v1, just doesn't have the same oomph in a 5v5.

Tooplark

United States3977 Posts

March 30 2013 19:08 GMT

#93

Her old passive was boring, sure, but it was really powerful. Her new passive is boring and basically her ult.

Old mantra was like casting two regular skills at once.
New mantra is like... almost casting an ult instead of a skill.
Old Karma: two charges of two-for-one skill casts, 12 sec cooldown on each
New Karma: one charge of ult-instead-of-skill, 24 sec cooldown reduced by hitting champions with things

I guess if you want another [nuke cc utility] burst caster then new karma is great.

Requizen

United States33802 Posts

March 31 2013 19:13 GMT

#94

I never played old Karma, but I find the redesign to be a hell of a lot of fun. Mantra'd abilities just feel powerful, and your lane is pretty strong because of it.

I felt strongest with a Faerie Charm/4 health pot/2 mana pot/Ward start, got Chalice - Boots - Grail - Sorc - DC - whatever, can really nuke people down quick. RoA also felt pretty good, less damage tho.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

April 01 2013 18:20 GMT

#95

New Karma's closest analogy IMO is Lulu. I'm not a fan, but idk, I'll probably play a game of support Karma here and there. Really don't think she can succeed mid at reasonably high levels of play.

EDIT: holy shit, thank god I'm no longer an Invested Terran, Defiler all the way baybee.

whiteguycash

United States476 Posts

April 01 2013 18:34 GMT

#96

On April 01 2013 04:13 Requizen wrote:
I never played old Karma, but I find the redesign to be a hell of a lot of fun. Mantra'd abilities just feel powerful, and your lane is pretty strong because of it.

I felt strongest with a Faerie Charm/4 health pot/2 mana pot/Ward start, got Chalice - Boots - Grail - Sorc - DC - whatever, can really nuke people down quick. RoA also felt pretty good, less damage tho.

Any reason for chalice over Tear? I'm still kinda new.

Requizen

United States33802 Posts

April 01 2013 18:37 GMT

#97

On April 02 2013 03:34 whiteguycash wrote:

Show nested quote +

Any reason for chalice over Tear? I'm still kinda new.

I personally just don't think she can stack Tear fast enough, and she also wants a lot of CDR to get more shields and slows out, as well as get more Mantras. Tear probably works, but I just like the stats on Grail more and you don't really need both.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

April 01 2013 18:53 GMT

#98

Only reason to do tear on Karma was because Muramana was bugged with her W, but now that that's fixed... stick to chalice.

sob3k

United States7572 Posts

April 01 2013 19:01 GMT

#99

On April 02 2013 03:34 whiteguycash wrote:

Show nested quote +

Any reason for chalice over Tear? I'm still kinda new.

1. She has no super low cooldown abilities to allow her to stack tear really fast.

2. She loves CDR, which you get from Athenes which chalice builds into. Hitting enemies with skills reduces your mantra... which gives more skills, CDR makes more skills... self synergy

entropius

United States1046 Posts

April 02 2013 15:21 GMT

#100

Do people still think she should be run as a support? I've not really seen her be effective as support; it seems like her new kit is more designed to go mid. She doesn't have an ally-targeted heal any more, but her AP ratios seem pretty decent: 0.6 on each of Q and W, increasing to 1.5 (total) and 1.2 with mantra.