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On December 22 2011 04:15 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 17:38 Haasts wrote:Always great to see Karma getting some love, and apparently Guinsoo tweeted about upcoming buffs. the problem with Karma bot in a nutshell is that Karma's power does not come from base stats on her skills. This 100% - aside from the slow, all of the functionality on her spells with or without Mantra scale with AP, instead of the static armor buff on Soraka's heal, the AD bonus on Janna's shield, Taric's armor or AD/AP aura, as well as the harder CCs via stun/silence/knockup they + Ali bring - she can't peel/babysit in the same way they can. Especially with summoner Heal giving more flexibility to take people with strong farm-independent toolkits (Blitz/Leona/Gangplank/Yorick) as support bot, Karma doesn't really fit in there. But what are they going to do about this? If they make her skills scale less well with AP (while increasing their base values), they're effectively taking her passive away from her. I think they shouldn't be shoehorning her into the no-farm support role in bottom lane and instead they should buff her so that she's more capable of being a "Farmed AP carry-support" like Zilean, Orianna, etc. She's got the right style of kit for that, too. I think it might just be range that she lacks to succeed in a role like that.
Even Zilean and Ori have more farm-independent utility though. Zilean with his E and R, and Ori with her W, E (the armor/MR doesn't scale with farm) and R.
Karma's W is very much along these lines (a speed buff/debuff) but she doesn't have a splashy, high-utility ultimate.
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A couple questions
1) For the guide, would you consider recording and posting/linking a replay or VOD. Last time I checked your stream channel, there were a couple VODs but I think they were all Old (July maybe?). If those are still relevant, that would work. I feel like after reading a guide, I still want to watch a match to get a better grasp on the skills.
2) complete ignorant theorycrafting: I found the Sion comparisons interesting. I'm terrible on my smurf with the roaming Sion AP build, but could Karma ever be played similarly (atleast if people wanted to play a troll game)? Get blue and boots of mobility, like after every 2 waves (to get charges) push and then keep harassing other lanes. Her lvl 3 shield would do ~50ish less damage than Sion's lvl 3, but her whole kit would do adequate damage I think, with enough slow to make the actual laner
really do damage. Probably just a crazy idea, I've just never thought of Karma that way (that sounds awkward.)
3) for the guide, what are some and bad matchups to look for if someone wanted to play and follow your guide. When should someone look to pick Karma, other than preference or making half your team try to queue dodge (huehuehue)?
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On December 22 2011 09:47 FieryBalrog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 04:15 sylverfyre wrote:On December 21 2011 17:38 Haasts wrote:Always great to see Karma getting some love, and apparently Guinsoo tweeted about upcoming buffs. the problem with Karma bot in a nutshell is that Karma's power does not come from base stats on her skills. This 100% - aside from the slow, all of the functionality on her spells with or without Mantra scale with AP, instead of the static armor buff on Soraka's heal, the AD bonus on Janna's shield, Taric's armor or AD/AP aura, as well as the harder CCs via stun/silence/knockup they + Ali bring - she can't peel/babysit in the same way they can. Especially with summoner Heal giving more flexibility to take people with strong farm-independent toolkits (Blitz/Leona/Gangplank/Yorick) as support bot, Karma doesn't really fit in there. But what are they going to do about this? If they make her skills scale less well with AP (while increasing their base values), they're effectively taking her passive away from her. I think they shouldn't be shoehorning her into the no-farm support role in bottom lane and instead they should buff her so that she's more capable of being a "Farmed AP carry-support" like Zilean, Orianna, etc. She's got the right style of kit for that, too. I think it might just be range that she lacks to succeed in a role like that. Even Zilean and Ori have more farm-independent utility though. Zilean with his E and R, and Ori with her W, E (the armor/MR doesn't scale with farm) and R. Karma's W is very much along these lines (a speed buff/debuff) but she doesn't have a splashy, high-utility ultimate.
Not to mention Zilean and Ori can mid.
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On December 23 2011 01:57 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2011 09:47 FieryBalrog wrote:On December 22 2011 04:15 sylverfyre wrote:On December 21 2011 17:38 Haasts wrote:Always great to see Karma getting some love, and apparently Guinsoo tweeted about upcoming buffs. the problem with Karma bot in a nutshell is that Karma's power does not come from base stats on her skills. This 100% - aside from the slow, all of the functionality on her spells with or without Mantra scale with AP, instead of the static armor buff on Soraka's heal, the AD bonus on Janna's shield, Taric's armor or AD/AP aura, as well as the harder CCs via stun/silence/knockup they + Ali bring - she can't peel/babysit in the same way they can. Especially with summoner Heal giving more flexibility to take people with strong farm-independent toolkits (Blitz/Leona/Gangplank/Yorick) as support bot, Karma doesn't really fit in there. But what are they going to do about this? If they make her skills scale less well with AP (while increasing their base values), they're effectively taking her passive away from her. I think they shouldn't be shoehorning her into the no-farm support role in bottom lane and instead they should buff her so that she's more capable of being a "Farmed AP carry-support" like Zilean, Orianna, etc. She's got the right style of kit for that, too. I think it might just be range that she lacks to succeed in a role like that. Even Zilean and Ori have more farm-independent utility though. Zilean with his E and R, and Ori with her W, E (the armor/MR doesn't scale with farm) and R. Karma's W is very much along these lines (a speed buff/debuff) but she doesn't have a splashy, high-utility ultimate. Not to mention Zilean and Ori can mid.
Karma can mid too. I think she's a lot better than both of those jerks mid too tbh.
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On December 23 2011 00:54 Prinate wrote:
A couple questions
1) For the guide, would you consider recording and posting/linking a replay or VOD. Last time I checked your stream channel, there were a couple VODs but I think they were all Old (July maybe?). If those are still relevant, that would work. I feel like after reading a guide, I still want to watch a match to get a better grasp on the skills.
2) complete ignorant theorycrafting: I found the Sion comparisons interesting. I'm terrible on my smurf with the roaming Sion AP build, but could Karma ever be played similarly (atleast if people wanted to play a troll game)? Get blue and boots of mobility, like after every 2 waves (to get charges) push and then keep harassing other lanes. Her lvl 3 shield would do ~50ish less damage than Sion's lvl 3, but her whole kit would do adequate damage I think, with enough slow to make the actual laner
really do damage. Probably just a crazy idea, I've just never thought of Karma that way (that sounds awkward.)
3) for the guide, what are some and bad matchups to look for if someone wanted to play and follow your guide. When should someone look to pick Karma, other than preference or making half your team try to queue dodge (huehuehue)?
1. yea, I'll try to get a vod up soonish I guess.
2. sion's stun is a pretty big part of his ability to gank people so hard, so I think this wouln't be super duper effective. however, it could be decent at ganking lanes that are already winning and pushing, as Karma is a fantastic turret diver and pusher, so there is potential there. You just can't expect to punish over extending opposing lanes as hard as Sion would.
3. GP and Pantheon are the only really bad matchups for Karma IMO. Standard AoE farming AP carries tend to be stalemate lanes (Brand, Malz, Morg, Anivia) and other APs tend to get fucked up by Karma either via Karma favorably trading vs. them or by just shoving them onto their tower and fucking over their last hitting/ganking options.
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I spent a good while going Karma mid and she is just a beast. She is very hard to beat in lane and she seems to shit on most people.
R E is just godly. Like, seriously. It's got pretty damn good range and you can walk up and RE them. What they gonna do? They take damage and I don't because of the shield - win win.
After a level or two in Q you just ship more damage.
If they aren't stupid and decide to not openly trade with you, then you win anyway because you can just RE a nearby minion. Those E's really do pile up and actually do quite a fair amount of damage. There should be a very low chance of the enemy champion being in a place where they just cannot be harmed by Karma.
The more I played her the more I fell in love with her. E saves people, Q heals them. RE saves and deals out pain and then RQ heals and deals out more pain. They may not be the biggest heals/nukes but when you drop a double RERQ on yourself or a buddy then the battle changes dramatically.
No one should fuck with Karma. When you mid with her just know that you're gonna fuck them up no matter what.
Sometimes I E minions as the opponent's about the last hit them just to fuck with them. It's pretty fun.
KARMA 4 LIFE
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Reading this thread makes me wonder why the fuck people think karma is bad . . .
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There's a heck of a lot of AP champions that nobody plays any more but are really underrated. At the very least Xerath, Orianna, Swain, Annie, Zilean. It's not a surprise that nobody wants to pick up Karma who hasn't been FoTM at any point. You'd need to just take a liking to her and get really good at her as a top player to make her FoTM. it doesn't mean you shouldn't try herself yourself.
She's got a lot of potential and a good karma can do so much better than a bad karma as well.
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i hate when someone wants to play karma and ppl start raging and telling the guy to support. It's rude, simple minded and flat out wrong. The only thing that kinda bothers me is that you cant play her on purple team nearly as well.
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Karma is pretty good imo. With her shield she can pretty much out trade anyone at mid. If Riot buffed her at all, people would play her and see how good she is. If Riot gave her 3 karma max instead of 2, that would be sooo win too.
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On February 17 2012 09:46 clickrush wrote:
i hate when someone wants to play karma and ppl start raging and telling the guy to support. It's rude, simple minded and flat out wrong. The only thing that kinda bothers me is that you cant play her on purple team nearly as well.
Apparently people really like playing karma on SEA. I had a karma support (I was AD kennen :3) in a normal today. She ended up carrying - somehow got two quadras in the last two teamfights and turned around the game lol.
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On February 17 2012 09:08 Slayer91 wrote:
There's a heck of a lot of AP champions that nobody plays any more but are really underrated. At the very least Xerath, Orianna, Swain, Annie, Zilean. It's not a surprise that nobody wants to pick up Karma who hasn't been FoTM at any point. You'd need to just take a liking to her and get really good at her as a top player to make her FoTM. it doesn't mean you shouldn't try herself yourself.
She's got a lot of potential and a good karma can do so much better than a bad karma as well.
Well, Xerath is kind of boring. I really love Orianna, but the reward for learning her is not big enough (why bother playing orianna, when you can play sion mouse only at the same effectiveness). Swain is dependent on farm and at the same time bad at farming and also very blue dependent. He is ridiculous when fed and with perma blue buff though. Annie is just meh, too dependent on flash for her combo. Zilean is a ridiculous douche in lane, ungankable post-6, but he needs blue and can't really carry a game on his own. Zileans use depends on a hyper carry and was really popular with pre-nerf Vayne. Without a Vayne to resurrect, Zilean isn't as strong.
And nobody will say anything bad when you pick one of these champs, people know that those champs aren't bad, they just don't know it about Karma.
Anyway, I'm about to pick her up as one of the last champs for my ap mid collection (or malzahar, but he is boring). She seems like a champ I'd get RoA on, but I don't know how her mana works out, so I can't really tell right now.
But why would you get morellos over dfg? I realize she is more supporty later in the game, a bit like Zilean, but dfg should allow you to 100-0 squishies when the opportunity arises, or just chunk that high hp bruiser at the start of a teamfight.
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id wait, they are remaking her and it sounds like they want to make her more supporty so i doubt theyd do what they are talking about (mantra Q knockback so i guess baseline heal? and w improvements) without tearing her ratios to shreds.
p.s. kill lanes bot with a melee that jumps on enemies are hilarious fun if you can convince people to change it up a bit.
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Well, since support is my 2nd favorite role and there are so many choices for ap mid that I already barely play, I wouldn't really mind.
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I just bought Karma today and had a lot of fun playing her mid. Everyone thinks I'm trolling but auto-lock in normals is too op. Thankfully I carried those games.
I really hope they don't change Karma to a support :/ They would have to revamp the passive and change the utility effects of all of her spells, because right now only the shield feels supporty.
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On February 17 2012 09:46 clickrush wrote:
The only thing that kinda bothers me is that you cant play her on purple team nearly as well.
What's the problem?
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On February 17 2012 18:41 [NoiSe] wrote:
I just bought Karma today and had a lot of fun playing her mid. Everyone thinks I'm trolling but auto-lock in normals is too op. Thankfully I carried those games.
I really hope they don't change Karma to a support :/ They would have to revamp the passive and change the utility effects of all of her spells, because right now only the shield feels supporty.
Yea, I'm going to flip shit if they make her into a support.
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Ok this guide just prompted me to buy her. Sounds a challenging and fun champ to play - I'll let you know how I get on 
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On February 17 2012 18:46 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2012 09:46 clickrush wrote:
The only thing that kinda bothers me is that you cant play her on purple team nearly as well. What's the problem?
I'd say purpleside blue being too far from top lane.
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...but you should be going mid. long lanes are rough for Karma, too hard to run from gap closers.
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EPT
