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New buffed as fuck Karma
R>Q>W>E with a point in E early to allow for mantra E if needed. In dangerous lanes you can max E and be safe. Opening W and entering lane into immediate mantraW is pretty good if you can do it safely.
Karma general play:
1. Dont save mantra like an ult. Use it and get another charge.
2. Spam skills and auto a ton, it reduces mantra Cd. W in particular procs passive 3 times, so use it every opportunity.
3. Get CDR for more mantra and constant CC/speed
4. In teamfights kite a ton and peel for your DPS
Karma Strengths:
No long Cd's
Fast as fuck (dodging/roaming)
Boatloads of CC and team utility
Great vs melee bruisers (they can't gapclose)
Scary ganks
Karma Weaknesses
Super gap closing Assassins
Not stunning waveclear
Poor Range
Less damage than low utility mids
Items:
You need mana to spam constantly and CDR. If you are saving spells and conserving mana you aren't getting as much mantra as you could and you aren't playing her to her full capabilities.
For mana you need
Athenes
and/or
Morellos (if you can get a lot of blue)
Once you are set up to spam:
Dcap
Liandrys
Lichbane
Abyssal
Void later
Zhonyas/defenseive shit situationally
all good items depending on situation
Bad items
Nashors. Autoing this much is dangerous and it gives no mana, your autos do no damage and are only good for reducing mantra...but spells also reduce mantra and actually do damage and are safe to spam. Go with spells. I tried this trust me.
In lane:
1. Use standard combo: Eself, W, mantraQ as snare procs
2. Use shield speed to juke skillshots like a ninja
3. Force enemy out of lane and roam as much as possible, spam E whenever traveling
4. If minons survive Q with low hp: hit then BEFORE Qing, not after
5. Back your jungler up on counterjungling, your CC guarantees a kill if you catch someone, and if he gets caught you can easily get him out with shield speed and maybe a Q
In Teamfights:
1. Mantra E is almost always best 1st thing. To engage or right after engage, gives your team like 78969087extra health+speed+plus damage like as big as amumu ult.
2. Kite and peel, auto as much as safely possible, more mantra E and Q
3. Win game
Ideally you want a team consisting of Karma/Jayce/Orianna/sivir/Galio, for maximum teamwide zoom zoom potential
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On July 06 2013 12:38 Ryuu314 wrote:
Why do you max w over e?
Shield gets 40 health and 5% Ms a level, tether gets 50 dmg, increases the root duration and reduces the CD. I'll max E>W if I need to use it, but most of the time I use E mostly to dodge skillshots, not facetank them, and the base MS works well for that. Most of the time in lane I prefer to deal more damage and have more CC. Her survivability and escape is is already very good with just 1 in shield. Plus the lower Cd and duration on tether is a defensive asset as well. In addition tether procs passive mantra reduction 3 times (once per tic), so the lower its CD, the more I can spam it and the more mantra I get.
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What runes/mastries you using? Currently Im using MPen/AR/MR or MR/LVL/AP + 21/0/9 or 9/0/21 (10% CDR). The awkward thing for me is usually choosing whether I want to buy Athenes + Morellos, especially if top.
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On July 06 2013 14:50 cLutZ wrote:
What runes/mastries you using? Currently Im using MPen/AR/MR or MR/LVL/AP + 21/0/9 or 9/0/21 (10% CDR). The awkward thing for me is usually choosing whether I want to buy Athenes + Morellos, especially if top.
Mpen/AR/MR 21/0/9, you could probably use any masteries and it would be fine.
yeah its really awkward for top. You dont want to waste the cash on MR on athenes, but in my experience morellos isn't enough mana unless you are blue side and can take blue. Maybe chalice into morellos and then finish it later? I mostly have been going mid lately.
the only MUs I've had trouble with on her was a Xin top who I dominated early but he just kept building damage and eventually could just burst me, and Diana with the strong sustained damage and double gap closer. Zed and akali are also pretty scary but I think you could be safe, you just are not gonna come out with kills.
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On July 06 2013 13:28 sob3k wrote:Shield gets 40 health and 5% Ms a level, tether gets 50 dmg, increases the root duration and reduces the CD. I'll max E>W if I need to use it, but most of the time I use E mostly to dodge skillshots, not facetank them, and the base MS works well for that. Most of the time in lane I prefer to deal more damage and have more CC. Her survivability and escape is is already very good with just 1 in shield. Plus the lower Cd and duration on tether is a defensive asset as well. In addition tether procs passive mantra reduction 3 times (once per tic), so the lower its CD, the more I can spam it and the more mantra I get.
I feel like you're sacrificing a crapton of teamfight utility by maxing W over E. That's 160 Health across the entire team you're sacrificing for 200 damage (which isn't guaranteed) to a single target, not to mention that you'll be able to cast it at least twice if not three times in a fight. The benefits of W are non-trivial, but compared to the team-wide survivability from E I can't imagine maxing it second unless I was on a team with zero teamwork.
It's basically like Xerath W vs E, except more complicated.
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On July 06 2013 15:33 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 13:28 sob3k wrote:On July 06 2013 12:38 Ryuu314 wrote:
Why do you max w over e? Shield gets 40 health and 5% Ms a level, tether gets 50 dmg, increases the root duration and reduces the CD. I'll max E>W if I need to use it, but most of the time I use E mostly to dodge skillshots, not facetank them, and the base MS works well for that. Most of the time in lane I prefer to deal more damage and have more CC. Her survivability and escape is is already very good with just 1 in shield. Plus the lower Cd and duration on tether is a defensive asset as well. In addition tether procs passive mantra reduction 3 times (once per tic), so the lower its CD, the more I can spam it and the more mantra I get. I feel like you're sacrificing a crapton of teamfight utility by maxing W over E. That's 160 Health across the entire team you're sacrificing for 200 damage (which isn't guaranteed) to a single target, not to mention that you'll be able to cast it at least twice if not three times in a fight. The benefits of W are non-trivial, but compared to the team-wide survivability from E I can't imagine maxing it second unless I was on a team with zero teamwork. It's basically like Xerath W vs E, except more complicated.
I'm playing soloque....so yeah. Also secondary allies only get half of your shield value, so you are only missing a bit more than 80hp comparing a completely maxed W with a level one E.
If you dont max W in lane you are basically saying you are going to turn it into a farm lane, you will never get a kill with one skill (Q). I don't really want that at all on Karma, as her scaling isn't stellar and neither is her waveclear. I want to force people out of lane and roam to create an advantage. Most of the big formal 5v5 soloque teamfights where E is really great happen quite late anyway, so for many of them its gonna be even less of a difference in shield. Personally i'd def trade a bit of shield for the opportunity for lane aggression, especially in solo when I'm confident in being a better midlaner.
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Regarding runes/masteries, I found 9/0/21 with MS/Mpen/Ar/MR much better than the offensive 21/0/9 with AP/Mpen/Ar/Mr.
Karma is really a utility based champions, and even though she deals a lot of damage, I don't like the last points in the offensive tree.
As well, I feel like Rabadon is a bit too much on her. She's a low-range fighter champion, and investing 3300g in a full-offensive item seems way too much to me.
My end build is generally :
Athene/Liandry/Zhonya/GA then I adapt, maybe then buy a deatchap, but I don't see me buying it earlier.
DC sure offers damage and a bigger shield, but with an early Zhonya you can dive way deeper in teamfights and tank for your AD instead of simply spamming E on him.
EDIT : on the subject of W vs E maxing, I'm with Monte. W max is pretty cheesy and selfish, and you don't need it to kill people. If you max E, ofc you'll deal less damage, but you can also tank more of it. So you can just trade with W/Q, stay full life, and then trade again. You won't 100% people, but you'll still be a big threat 1v1.
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On July 06 2013 16:19 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 15:33 Seuss wrote:On July 06 2013 13:28 sob3k wrote:On July 06 2013 12:38 Ryuu314 wrote:
Why do you max w over e? Shield gets 40 health and 5% Ms a level, tether gets 50 dmg, increases the root duration and reduces the CD. I'll max E>W if I need to use it, but most of the time I use E mostly to dodge skillshots, not facetank them, and the base MS works well for that. Most of the time in lane I prefer to deal more damage and have more CC. Her survivability and escape is is already very good with just 1 in shield. Plus the lower Cd and duration on tether is a defensive asset as well. In addition tether procs passive mantra reduction 3 times (once per tic), so the lower its CD, the more I can spam it and the more mantra I get. I feel like you're sacrificing a crapton of teamfight utility by maxing W over E. That's 160 Health across the entire team you're sacrificing for 200 damage (which isn't guaranteed) to a single target, not to mention that you'll be able to cast it at least twice if not three times in a fight. The benefits of W are non-trivial, but compared to the team-wide survivability from E I can't imagine maxing it second unless I was on a team with zero teamwork. It's basically like Xerath W vs E, except more complicated. I'm playing soloque....so yeah. Also secondary allies only get half of your shield value, so you are only missing a bit more than 80hp comparing a completely maxed W with a level one E. If you dont max W in lane you are basically saying you are going to turn it into a farm lane, you will never get a kill with one skill (Q). I don't really want that at all on Karma, as her scaling isn't stellar and neither is her waveclear. I want to force people out of lane and roam to create an advantage. Most of the big formal 5v5 soloque teamfights where E is really great happen quite late anyway, so for many of them its gonna be even less of a difference in shield. Personally i'd def trade a bit of shield for the opportunity for lane aggression, especially in solo when I'm confident in being a better midlaner.
It may "only" be 80 Health for secondary targets, but that's still 480 Health across your team per Mantra'd E, which also scales with your allies' defenses. Again, I don't really blame you if your team isn't grouping at all, but in arranged play I would never max W second.
As a tangent, I have no idea why you think Karma has bad waveclear. Mantra Q->Q will basically clear every wave, and if you have Blue then Mantra will be back by time either the next wave arrives or you arrive at a side lane. Whenever I play against an opponent who I'm unable to kill or who is simply not worth the effort anymore I just quickly clear waves and roam like crazy.
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any other karma players here? I dont know if im trippin or what... but it seems like sometimes ill hit people directly with q and it will register as a miss
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So is this jungle thing for real?
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On July 29 2013 06:20 cLutZ wrote:
So is this jungle thing for real?
I think you can bet that if it's successful in professional play, it can be successful on an amateur level.
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It wasn't successful in pro play.
Basically she is slow as shit but has good utility and ganks, I think Leona or Blitz etc jungle is probably stronger if you want that. Or Morgana.
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hurray karma is no viable !!!! And she is extremely strong, she is i think one the best support with annie/taric
she loose vs sustain like sona/soraka and hard engage(point clik) like annie (skill matchup but at 6 just stay safe) but she win vs so much other support and has extremely good damage.
Your lane feels safe also with your shield
All around a very good champ
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So after being in a rut for a while, I've had a bunch of success the last couple days after picking up Karma in solo lanes. I've been hewing largely to the advice on this thread, but I've focused on maxing CDR very fast with Ionian boots + either Athene's or Morello's. I'm not sure I like a penetration based build path when so much of what she brings to the table isn't raw damage, but setting up teammates. She absolutely excels in early 2v2/3v3 skirmishes with junglers involved. She's very hard to gank, and her bait potential is so insane.
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EPT
