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United States399 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:43 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:37 deskscaress wrote:On January 12 2012 05:30 L wrote:On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote:
i still don't understand how "skarner" and "mana problems" are ever used in the same sentence
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana" If you give away blue, you can run out of mana very quickly. Skarner might not have high mana costs, but he uses around 150 mana per camp without e. with e that goes up to 205->260 or so (1 less q, 1 more e or two of each) If you're running E over W, and not E AND W, you're getting less Q procs and are probably clearing slower, but at a lower mana cost. 150 mana without E? that's probably what you guys are doing wrong skarner should clear camps with 3-5 Qs, you don't need to W and E for every camp. i generally only E for wraiths and buffs, and W only for buffs and yeah, i realize that was dicey how i wrote that: i take E at level 2, i don't max E before W. QEQW, R>Q>W>E i usually give away blues starting at second, sometimes third depending on who's laning mid i think you guys need to stop using every skill on every camp and your mana issues will disappear. just manage your resources better O_O. you don't blow your whole paycheck at the first store you go to on payday every week, do you? You go Wriggle's first. It's a different story with a normal Philo/HoG build. I spam Q and W once it's level 2 pretty much every camp and I literally NEVER have mana issues on Skarner. If you're not spending your resources to jungle faster, you're doing it wrong.
i dunno, i disagree with that mentality
like, how much time does a W save you in the jungle? it's going to be dispersed i like 2 hits, so you get maybe 2 hits off at increased attack speed? so you're shaving less than a second off the camp for a bucket of mana? and if the opponent suddenly comes barreling into your camp you don't have your escape ready now?
same with E. if you're at full health, how much does E do for you? a tiny bit of AOE damage? nice on wraiths for sure, but what about wolves + golems? questionable to use it there.
there are tons of champs that i would say using all your spells to clear camps is actually going to hurt you. warwick comes to mind - Q just isn't worth except on buffs or if you are low in HP. the mana sink is too huge. malphite too. the only spell i use on him in the jungle is E, sometimes W. you don't need the -speed or +speed from Q, so why even use it? fearing camps as nocturne can hurt you if they stray far enough away from the other creeps that your cleave doesn't hit the whole camp. olaf shouldn't be spamming his E in the jungle for no reason... etc etc etc
you should try to think things over more and decide what is optimal in the jungle, not necessarily what is speediest. exceptions of course at buffs, or when counterjungling if you're not 100% sure it's safe. but the jungle is definitely not the place to QWER spam mindlessly
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At a couple ranks and with armor yellows your W should last more than "a couple hits". The increased attacks and more Qs help more than you'd think. Also, if someone invades and I just used my W? Well, my Q is charged, and my shield kept me from taking too much damage. I'd turn and hit him, then run while he was slowed, and my autos just brought W back up. Skarner is one of the hardest junglers to interrupt and kill, more times than not I kill the invader.
If you're not going to be using E except on one or two packs, why are you leveling it? You're making the argument that you don't need the extra AoE damage for killing faster, and yet you're saying you need it to kill buff monsters? Having E for Red or Blue will save you maybe a couple seconds, and if you're not optimizing speed on the other camps, what's the point on those?
Even then, if you have Wriggles, W is better because it lets you land more hits for lifesteal and damage procs, and the shield absorbs more with the armor + shield amount than you'd heal anyway. It's like, E is great and useful, but QW does the same thing, just as good, for less mana.
Also, speed is tantamount in the jungle. The faster you clear camps, the faster they respawn, and the faster you can get out of the jungle to gank. QWQWQR is just as fast as QEQWQR or QWQEQR, but uses less mana so you can gank better, and gives you higher movespeed on your shield for said ganks.
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United States399 Posts
On January 12 2012 06:01 Requizen wrote:
Also, speed is tantamount in the jungle. The faster you clear camps, the faster they respawn, and the faster you can get out of the jungle to gank.
i think i've just shown that htis isn't true. what good is clearing the jungle 1 second faster if it depletes your mana enough that you can't get that extra hungering strike off, or seismic shard, or not have enough mana to W away if the gank goes sour?
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On January 12 2012 06:54 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 06:01 Requizen wrote:
Also, speed is tantamount in the jungle. The faster you clear camps, the faster they respawn, and the faster you can get out of the jungle to gank. i think i've just shown that htis isn't true. what good is clearing the jungle 1 second faster if it depletes your mana enough that you can't get that extra hungering strike off, or seismic shard, or not have enough mana to W away if the gank goes sour?
You haven't proven shit because that literally never happens. What on earth do you have to do to actually run oom on Skarner?
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United States399 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote:
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana"
i don't think i ever said i run out of mana on skarner
i'm saying the reasons you guys do is because you use every skill on every camp x_x
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On January 12 2012 06:57 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote:
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana" i don't think i ever said i run out of mana on skarner i'm saying the reasons you guys do is because you use every skill on every camp x_x
I spam my skills on every camp once I get my philo (save E sometimes) and I never run oom. Speed IS the single most important thing about jungling. Period.
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Is E really that helpful in jungle? Especially at level 1 it just doesn't seem to do much. Only speaking from experience, not numbers.
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United States399 Posts
On January 12 2012 07:01 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 06:57 deskscaress wrote:On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote:
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana" i don't think i ever said i run out of mana on skarner i'm saying the reasons you guys do is because you use every skill on every camp x_x I spam my skills on every camp once I get my philo (save E sometimes) and I never run oom. Speed IS the single most important thing about jungling. Period.
map awareness is the most important thing about jungling
knowing when opponents are converging on your buffs, predicting when an opponent is going to gank so you can take his buffs or dragon, knowing when to abandon a camp to assist a gank or countergank... these things are all more important than speeding through every camp
why are you being so hostile x_x
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On January 12 2012 07:33 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 07:01 Shiv. wrote:On January 12 2012 06:57 deskscaress wrote:On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote:
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana" i don't think i ever said i run out of mana on skarner i'm saying the reasons you guys do is because you use every skill on every camp x_x I spam my skills on every camp once I get my philo (save E sometimes) and I never run oom. Speed IS the single most important thing about jungling. Period. map awareness is the most important thing about jungling knowing when opponents are converging on your buffs, predicting when an opponent is going to gank so you can take his buffs or dragon, knowing when to abandon a camp to assist a gank or countergank... these things are all more important than speeding through every camp why are you being so hostile x_x
Because you are pulling shit out of your ass. You said ''you guys run out of mana because you blow your skill on every camp''
No one ever said that. Requizen simply stated that if you are NOT building an early Philo AND giving up blue buffs, E is going to run you out of mana eventually. All of a sudden, you try to argue based on the assumption we do run oom because we are blowing our shit on camps, which simply is not true. All your map awareness isn't going to get you anywhere if you are stuck at your golems not using W.
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Every jungler has to manage their mana appropriately without the blue buff. There's no special exception for Skarner here. You aren't going to spam your skills on CD while clearing without blue, but you can certainly get added speed and sustain from E versus no E by using it appropriately. Your ability to maintain high hp and clear speed directly translates into your ability to gank more often and farm more often. It's the kind of thing that can have an exponential effect.
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United States399 Posts
On January 12 2012 07:56 Shiv. wrote:
Because you are pulling shit out of your ass. You said ''you guys run out of mana because you blow your skill on every camp''
No one ever said that. Requizen simply stated that if you are NOT building an early Philo AND giving up blue buffs, E is going to run you out of mana eventually. All of a sudden, you try to argue based on the assumption we do run oom because we are blowing our shit on camps, which simply is not true. All your map awareness isn't going to get you anywhere if you are stuck at your golems not using W.
i'm not pulling anything out of my ass -_-
i have played 100 games with skarner and never felt low on mana
the biggest complaint in this thread is "how to not run out of mana?"
it's not like i'm not using my skills during ganks/fights, so then how are people running out of mana when i'm not? the only option is (a) they are using them between camps or between ganks on nothing, or (b) they are using every skill on camps. it's pretty easy logic to follow
if you're not running out of mana, then you're fine. my posts are addressed at everyone who is saying they can't maintain mana. if you want more mana, use less skills. you don't need to use skills on small camps beyond Q.
now you come out of nowhere trying to tell me "i spam skills to have the highest speed in the jungle and i never run out of mana, speed is all that matters." if the first part is true, i suggest swapping out your mana regen yellows, blues, reds, and quints for more useful runes. the second part simply isn't true at all
i mean i don't know. are you a 2k player? maybe you do know better than me
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On January 12 2012 08:25 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 07:56 Shiv. wrote:
Because you are pulling shit out of your ass. You said ''you guys run out of mana because you blow your skill on every camp''
No one ever said that. Requizen simply stated that if you are NOT building an early Philo AND giving up blue buffs, E is going to run you out of mana eventually. All of a sudden, you try to argue based on the assumption we do run oom because we are blowing our shit on camps, which simply is not true. All your map awareness isn't going to get you anywhere if you are stuck at your golems not using W. i'm not pulling anything out of my ass -_- i have played 100 games with skarner and never felt low on mana the biggest complaint in this thread is "how to not run out of mana?" it's not like i'm not using my skills during ganks/fights, so then how are people running out of mana when i'm not? the only option is (a) they are using them between camps or between ganks on nothing, or (b) they are using every skill on camps. it's pretty easy logic to follow if you're not running out of mana, then you're fine. my posts are addressed at everyone who is saying they can't maintain mana. if you want more mana, use less skills. you don't need to use skills on small camps beyond Q. now you come out of nowhere trying to tell me "i spam skills to have the highest speed in the jungle and i never run out of mana, speed is all that matters." if the first part is true, i suggest swapping out your mana regen yellows, blues, reds, and quints for more useful runes. the second part simply isn't true at all i mean i don't know. are you a 2k player? maybe you do know better than me
Please quote a single person that said ''I run out of mana all the time'' or ''I have huge problems containing mana.''
And then, please tell me again the biggest complaint in this thread is people running oom.
What I am saying is: I spam my stuff on most of the camps (not on CD obviously) and I do NOT run out of mana without any mana regen runes or masteries. Like, what the hell are you talking about? I'm usually not someone who is going to insult someone on a forum, but you are COMPLETELY ignoring my post and talking about random stuff that is not actually adressing ANYTHING I have been saying.
I'm not saying I know better, I'm saying you say people say things they clearly didn't.
Example:
On January 12 2012 06:57 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote:
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana" i don't think i ever said i run out of mana on skarner i'm saying the reasons you guys do is because you use every skill on every camp x_x
''You guys do''? How would you know we run out of mana? That's what I mean when I say you're pulling shit out of your ass.
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can we all just calm down and agree that skarner needs some serious mana cost increases on his abilities again in order for him to be even remotely balanced.
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United States37500 Posts
On January 12 2012 11:30 Shauni wrote:
can we all just calm down and agree that skarner needs some serious mana cost increases on his abilities again in order for him to be even remotely balanced.
I'm with you Shauni.
Q is so lol atm.
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Worst case scenario people switch out 3 of their blues for flat mana/5.
Unless the jungle is changed or his kit is weakened, he's going to be picked for the ridiculous gank threat he produces post-6.
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a 'ridiculous gank threat he produces post-6' is something that even ww has in common with skarner, but i doubt anybody will make the claim that ww is currently op. low mana q is the main problem because it gives skarner super fast clear times AND a ridiculously good chasing tool that gives him good ganks even without his ult. forcing players to choose between spamming q in jungle or saving mana to gank is probably the simplest fix
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On January 12 2012 14:20 novalight wrote:
a 'ridiculous gank threat he produces post-6' is something that even ww has in common with skarner, but i doubt anybody will make the claim that ww is currently op. low mana q is the main problem because it gives skarner super fast clear times AND a ridiculously good chasing tool that gives him good ganks even without his ult. forcing players to choose between spamming q in jungle or saving mana to gank is probably the simplest fix
See the kit comment. Skarner's ult is STRONGER in ganks, he has a ms buff which helps him be relevant to camp a lane even if his ult is down, and his Q not only slows, but it produces substantially more damage than anything else in WW's kit.
If you increase the cost on Q, people are going to run a few regen blues and still pick him for the "lol, every thirty seconds my ult is up and there's a kill on the way" factor.
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Yesterday I played with a Skarner who liked to ult Karthus and bring him to our team during team fights....not good idea
Then he went to gank Orianna, and didnt even drag her to us. He just stayed in spot....needless to say she got away too
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Guys I've been playing wriggles + wits end-->rageblade///Frozen heart+FoN style where I tend to just initiate but then stay back instead of diving squishies, but the style I've seen mostly is going FULL tank with like shurelyas+randuins+frozen heart. I know skarner has good base damage and CC which lets him get away with it but you think it's superior? I guess it depends on who the top is because If I'm needed to be that guy to deal with their AD carry then It's probably the best thing to go with. Maybe just a wits end for damage?
Also I think skarners mana costs are actually feeling pretty high in the jungle, maybe It's becauase I use level 1 E though. I generally find I want a mana item, sheen sometimes but almost always glacial. I think that his W movement boost lasts WAY too long though, considering how big it is it's like a free ghost. The uptime should rely more on hitting the target especially when this fucker already has a perma slow.
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So, how are people finding our favourite scorpion post-nerf and with the new/remade items in the mix? I'm definitely finding mindless Q-spam harder when donating blues, and have moved away from Rageblade towards either Wit's End or Zeke's Herald (or both) as my post Philo/HoG/Merc item - a Kindlegem is a handy component to have on Skarner, and the aura's great for teamfights. Built Locket of the Iron Solari from my HoG once, but wasn't really able to get a feeling for how useful it was as the game was fairly much over at that point - nice to have an alternative to Randuin's from the HoG, considering I find Glacial Shroud/Frozen Heart core.
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EPT
