EPTlow elo team with no communication or sense of teamwork.
[Champion] Skarner - Page 11
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
low elo team with no communication or sense of teamwork. | ||
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Haasts
New Zealand4445 Posts
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L
Canada4732 Posts
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tmonet
United States172 Posts
On January 11 2012 22:49 L wrote: Nashors, or at the very least stinger is a better choice than both if you aren't going to FH. Discuss. You've given no argument, simply stated your opinion as fact. Discuss. | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On January 11 2012 22:49 L wrote: Nashors, or at the very least stinger is a better choice than both if you aren't going to FH. Discuss. Nope. First and foremost, there's next to no reason not to go FH, and Nashor's is too expensive without offering any defenses. If you are willing to spend 3k on an offensive item, you might aswell save a thousand more and get Triforce. It might be better than Rageblade, but Wit's End is a lot stronger because it will be your only source of MR besides Merc treads. | ||
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mordek
United States12704 Posts
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On January 11 2012 23:46 mordek wrote: Worth mentioning that a lot of pros are not taking a level of E until level 10+ as its mana cost is prohibitive and health being topped off is rarely an issue. QWQWQRQW etc. Yeah, I've seen that. I like the early level in E because I feel it let's me clear wraiths faster which gives me an easier time at red. I leave it at lvl 1, max Q then W. | ||
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nullmind
1303 Posts
regrowth+potion wolves -> blue -> wraiths -> mini golems -> red -> wolves-> wraiths -> mini golems -> home You will get about level 4.5 and 720-750 gold depending on how fast you cleared. Get philo stone + boots and see if there are any ganking opportunities. If not, continue clearing jungle and aim for HoG. | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
On January 11 2012 23:46 mordek wrote: Worth mentioning that a lot of pros are not taking a level of E until level 10+ as its mana cost is prohibitive and health being topped off is rarely an issue. QWQWQRQW etc. I think they're just dumb. I always get a level in E and never have mana issues and it's useful for faster clear speed and higher sustain, especially during your early jungle pass. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
On January 11 2012 23:44 Shiv. wrote: Nope. First and foremost, there's next to no reason not to go FH, and Nashor's is too expensive without offering any defenses. If you are willing to spend 3k on an offensive item, you might aswell save a thousand more and get Triforce. It might be better than Rageblade, but Wit's End is a lot stronger because it will be your only source of MR besides Merc treads. There are plenty of reasons not to go FH. You have a blitz/ryze/malph/etc on your team. Their AD output is lagging because they did mediocre in lane. Most of their magic burst is focused on you because of your initiations. You can reliably ult their AD carry, etc. Do the math on wits vs stinger + negatron. You'll find you're not missing mres in the tradeoff; its the wits end proc. Which honestly isn't very important compared to getting more ults off midgame and more Qs off during fights. Also, Nashors is a full 1.2k less expensive than triforce. Might as well say "save up an extra 200$ and get a nashors + chain+negatron". If you want to compare pure offensive items, Nashors + Sheen is almost the same cost as triforce, bursts harder, CCs better, actually has significantly more survivability because of the synergy with W and ult and clears jungle substantially faster while being built. The only real loss is the 12%ms, but you have W up more often to compensate. Worth mentioning that a lot of pros are not taking a level of E until level 10+ as its mana cost is prohibitive and health being topped off is rarely an issue. QWQWQRQW etc. That's not why they skip it. They skip it because W's bonuses fade when the shield is broken, making level 1 W very weak in jungle. Since your second point in W comes very late if you get a point in e (QWQEQRQW or QEQWQRQW). Losing 30% attack speed in 2 attacks blows, but keeping it up means you get to Q signficantly faster, which speeds up clear times. A single extra level 2 Q out damages level 1 E. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On January 12 2012 00:39 Craton wrote: I think they're just dumb. I always get a level in E and never have mana issues and it's useful for faster clear speed and higher sustain, especially during your early jungle pass. It depends on a lot of things, I think. You want to be able to leave jungle, get to lane, and use abilities at pretty much any point, so low mana hurts quite a bit. Will you get a Philo stone early? No mana issues, spamming E is no problem. However, that's not the case for a lot of Skarner players. Are you feeding Blue to midlane? If so, E is prohibitive in it's cost past your first blue. You also have to consider the W shield strength. W is much more reasonably mana efficient (since it has a longer CD and there are more bonuses to it), and the shield strength generally means you won't need the heal. Also, the shield strength generally meets or beats the heal you'd get from an E. I think there are pros and cons to both QEQW/QWQE and QWQW, but I'm liking the latter lately. QW is more than enough to clear the jungle as fast or faster than any other jungler, and I barely notice the lack of a heal in most cases. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On January 12 2012 01:02 L wrote: The mana cost on E being awful certainly doesn't help either, but yeah. Leveling W is more DPS in the jungle, because you want that shield to hold up as long as possible so you get the steroid, AND the steroid power increases. Once I started going QWQWQ I immediately wondered what the point of ever getting E was. You MIGHT have gotten slightly better sustain from the healing, but i think even the extra damage mitigated by the higher level shield + faster clear time from higher / longer attack speed steroid (further mitigating damage) outweighs even that.There are plenty of reasons not to go FH. You have a blitz/ryze/malph/etc on your team. Their AD output is lagging because they did mediocre in lane. Most of their magic burst is focused on you because of your initiations. You can reliably ult their AD carry, etc. Do the math on wits vs stinger + negatron. You'll find you're not missing mres in the tradeoff; its the wits end proc. Which honestly isn't very important compared to getting more ults off midgame and more Qs off during fights. Also, Nashors is a full 1.2k less expensive than triforce. Might as well say "save up an extra 200$ and get a nashors + chain+negatron". If you want to compare pure offensive items, Nashors + Sheen is almost the same cost as triforce, bursts harder, CCs better, actually has significantly more survivability because of the synergy with W and ult and clears jungle substantially faster while being built. The only real loss is the 12%ms, but you have W up more often to compensate. That's not why they skip it. They skip it because W's bonuses fade when the shield is broken, making level 1 W very weak in jungle. Since your second point in W comes very late if you get a point in e (QWQEQRQW or QEQWQRQW). Losing 30% attack speed in 2 attacks blows, but keeping it up means you get to Q signficantly faster, which speeds up clear times. A single extra level 2 Q out damages level 1 E. It's also better for ganking than E is, since you get more +MS to gapclose/chase with and hopefully get that Q (+red when applicable) permaslow to take effect. | ||
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deskscaress
United States399 Posts
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana" | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote: i still don't understand how "skarner" and "mana problems" are ever used in the same sentence over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana" Do you ever give away Blue? How often do you go back? Do you spam E on CD? I mean, yeah, I can level E way up and never use it in the jungle and only in fights and never run OOM, and if Skarner has Blue he's basically an unstoppable bulldozer. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote: i still don't understand how "skarner" and "mana problems" are ever used in the same sentence over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana" If you give away blue, you can run out of mana very quickly. Skarner might not have high mana costs, but he uses around 150 mana per camp without e. with e that goes up to 205->260 or so (1 less q, 1 more e or two of each) If you're running E over W, and not E AND W, you're getting less Q procs and are probably clearing slower, but at a lower mana cost. | ||
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deskscaress
United States399 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:30 L wrote: If you give away blue, you can run out of mana very quickly. Skarner might not have high mana costs, but he uses around 150 mana per camp without e. with e that goes up to 205->260 or so (1 less q, 1 more e or two of each) If you're running E over W, and not E AND W, you're getting less Q procs and are probably clearing slower, but at a lower mana cost. 150 mana without E? that's probably what you guys are doing wrong skarner should clear camps with 3-5 Qs, you don't need to W and E for every camp. i generally only E for wraiths and buffs, and W only for buffs and yeah, i realize that was dicey how i wrote that: i take E at level 2, i don't max E before W. QEQW, R>Q>W>E i usually give away blues starting at second, sometimes third depending on who's laning mid i think you guys need to stop using every skill on every camp and your mana issues will disappear. just manage your resources better O_O. you don't blow your whole paycheck at the first store you go to on payday every week, do you? | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On January 12 2012 05:37 deskscaress wrote: 150 mana without E? that's probably what you guys are doing wrong skarner should clear camps with 3-5 Qs, you don't need to W and E for every camp. i generally only E for wraiths and buffs, and W only for buffs and yeah, i realize that was dicey how i wrote that: i take E at level 2, i don't max E before W. QEQW, R>Q>W>E i usually give away blues starting at second, sometimes third depending on who's laning mid i think you guys need to stop using every skill on every camp and your mana issues will disappear. just manage your resources better O_O. you don't blow your whole paycheck at the first store you go to on payday every week, do you? You go Wriggle's first. It's a different story with a normal Philo/HoG build. I spam Q and W once it's level 2 pretty much every camp and I literally NEVER have mana issues on Skarner. If you're not spending your resources to jungle faster, you're doing it wrong. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Having W up at all times early on (especially before Wriggles is finished if you build it) also keeps your health up so you can gank with less risk to yourself. Similar idea behind E's heal, but W is much more efficient about it. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
Usually I take the first point when I'm at no risk of being oom, but even then, lvl1 E doesn't really do much... | ||
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