Abilities: (Innate): Using autoattacks against champions lowers the cooldowns of Skarner's abilities by 1 second and by 0.5 seconds when used against a non-champion target.
(Active): Skarner lashes out dealing physical damage to all enemies in a small area around him. He charges himself with Crystal Energy for 5 seconds if a unit is struck.
If he casts Crystal Slash again while empowered by Crystal Energy, the ability deals bonus magic damage and slows all targets hit for 2 seconds.
(Active): Skarner summons a blast of crystalline energy in a line which deals magic damage to enemies struck and marks them for 6 seconds. Any further damage dealt to marked targets by Skarner will consume the mark to heal himself. Subsequent marks consumed will heal for 50% of the last.
(Active): Skarner suppresses an enemy champion for 1.75 seconds and deals magic damage to it. During this time, Skarner can move freely and will drag his victim around with him. When the effect ends, Skarner's target will be dealt the same amount of magic damage again.
Quints: 3 * Movement Speed/Attack Speed/Armor Penetration
Marks: 9 * Attack Speed/Armor Penetration
Seals: 9 * Flat Armor
Glyphs: 9 * Attack Speed/Magic Resistance
Skill Order: QWQWQR, R > Q > W > E
Item Build:
Start with Boots and 3 Health Potions for early ganking, or Regrowth for sustain. Philosopher's Stone is Skarner's go to sustain tool. Kindlegem is a good follow up to Philosopher's Stone for a Shurelya's rush. Wriggle's isn't that great of an alternative unless you're abusively counter-jungling someone.
Shurelya's Reverie is widely considered to be Skarner's core item. Other good items include Wit's End, Trinity Force, Frozen Heart, Randuin's Omen, and Banshee's Veil.
Playstyle:
Skarner is a jungler/tanky DPS. As a jungler Skarner's early ganks are decent but not fantastic, though the slow from his Q will nearly guarantee kills on overextended opponents. Once he has his ultimate his ganks become godlike. He can farm the jungle very rapidly with relative ease, hold his own against duelists, and take dragon/buff camps very quickly even with just one damage item.
Skarner can act as an initiator throughout the game, but this becomes more difficult and dangerous as the game progresses. In a team fight his role is to either hang around your carries and wreck any assassins/melee going after them, or to pull a priority target into your team's kill zone.
Essential Skills:
Ganking:
Ganking in the new jungle is costly, and it's no longer enough to just blow the enemy summoner spells and rest well in the knowledge that life will be easier for that lane. Your goal should be either to get a kill every gank, or set up a follow up gank that will undoubtedly get a kill.
Thankfully Skarner has ridiculously powerful ganks after level-6 due to Crystal Prison. Remember that Crystal Prison can be used to negate enemy escape moves. With good reflexes/luck/prediction you can negate a number of gap creation moves (such as Tristana's jump). Simple movement speed increases (like Ghost) are extremely easy to deal with.
Animation Canceling:
Know and understand this concept as it applies to LoL. This skill is the difference between Skarner's Q being a deadly permanent slow that your enemies can't escape from, and Skarner constantly trailing behind his enemies unable to spam Q because they're always barely in range.
Crystal Prison:
Use this ability carefully. You can initiate teamfights by flashing onto opponents and dragging them to your team, but you put yourself in great danger by doing so. More often than not it's better to wait for a team fight to start and then use this to disable/draw away a critical opponent.
Remember to reverse direction immediately before the effect ends. This will cause your target to flip to the other side of you, adding a little extra distance and placing you in an advantageous position. If Q is primed for slowing, save hitting it for just before the ability ends as well.
Also, be extremely mindful of displacement abilities. A good ult can turn bad if the enemy moves you in the wrong direction.
Team Composition Awareness:
Skarner does not need blue buff but can use it to great effect. This makes him a good complement to champions who do not need blue buff at all, such as Kennen or Vladimir.
While Skarner can initiate, it isn't reliable once the late-game arrives. Make sure your team has another method of initiation, such as Ashe arrow.
Beware champions with built-in spell shields or cleanses, such as Sivir, Olaf, and Gangplank. They can easily invalidate your ultimate if you aren't careful, dramatically decreasing your usefulness.
9/10/2012: Minor revisions, added links to guides by Scip and Skarnold Trump. 2/2/2012: Sejuani Patch changes added. 10/19/2011: Graves Patch changes added. 9/20/2011: Initial Version
For jungle I recommend not taking any points in E and situationally maxing W first. Makes your ganks much stronger and your postwriggle jungle far far better. I personally don't like Gunblade on Skarner. Guinsoo's Rageblade is 1k gold cheaper and gives you attackspeed instead of vamp which I find generally more helpful. Matter of preference, both are good. Recommended tanky items on Skarner (in no particular order): Wit's End, Guardian Angel, Randuin's Omen, Frozen Brain, Spirit Visage
My runes and masteries are dedicated to GOING FAST. 1/14/15, 1/12/17, or 0/9/21, obviously moving points around for summoner spells etc. Attackspeed reds, Dodge yellows, Flat CDR blues, Movespeed quints The quints can be swapped for attackspeed, cdr, dodge, or whatever you fancy, but I like to vroom vroom all over the map.
oh and just for the record the telecleanse glitch has been fixed. Sad.
On September 20 2011 19:22 clickrush wrote: I like your build. But skarner is either very hard to play or very bad. What is your opinion on this matter?
I don't think he's very bad. He's not stellar Nocturne/Lee Sin level, but his ganks are no joke either before or after level 6.
I also don't think he's very hard to play (not easy perhaps), but he is very hard to build. He doesn't fit common itemization paradigms so most players have no idea what to do with him.
On September 20 2011 21:57 Tooplark wrote: For jungle I recommend not taking any points in E and situationally maxing W first. Makes your ganks much stronger and your postwriggle jungle far far better. I personally don't like Gunblade on Skarner. Guinsoo's Rageblade is 1k gold cheaper and gives you attackspeed instead of vamp which I find generally more helpful. Matter of preference, both are good. Recommended tanky items on Skarner (in no particular order): Wit's End, Guardian Angel, Randuin's Omen, Frozen Brain, Spirit Visage
My runes and masteries are dedicated to GOING FAST. 1/14/15, 1/12/17, or 0/9/21, obviously moving points around for summoner spells etc. Attackspeed reds, Dodge yellows, Flat CDR blues, Movespeed quints The quints can be swapped for attackspeed, cdr, dodge, or whatever you fancy, but I like to vroom vroom all over the map.
oh and just for the record the telecleanse glitch has been fixed. Sad.
I don't know if I'd max W first, but there's definitely a case to be made for getting at least a second point early on. I take a point in E at level 2 because I've found it to be more helpful at that point than W, but both work.
I like Gunblade because it adds survivability and comes with a very useful active as Skarner doesn't have a gap closer. It works well with the "I have a lot more effective health than you might think" style of play.
I don't like most CDR items on Skarner because I think he has a strong case for hogging blue buff, which basically means you don't need CDR items. If you do really need to build CDR (because your team is stealing your blue buff, the bastards) then Frozen Heart is a good choice.
Random tangent: Skarner can clear the entire wolves camp before blue spawns (barely). You can clock in under 3:30 for a full clear this way without a leash. With a leash I imagine it would not only be faster, but with a strong enough leash you might even have enough health to gank the nearby lanes.
The biggest problem with Skarner's ganks is that he needs to get next to them and STAY next to them long enough to land 2 Qs before he can slow them (sometimes you can get the first one on the creeps but the point still stands). As such, CC from your laner makes ganking much much easier. Your ganks are devastating if you can get and stay close.
On September 21 2011 00:08 Tooplark wrote: The biggest problem with Skarner's ganks is that he needs to get next to them and STAY next to them long enough to land 2 Qs before he can slow them (sometimes you can get the first one on the creeps but the point still stands). As such, CC from your laner makes ganking much much easier. Your ganks are devastating if you can get and stay close.
it's always possible to charge up the first Q in the bush before you start the gank. that way when you get in range the Q will slow them right off the bat.
also, in case anybody is thinking of trying, they fixed the tele glitch last night. When you cleanse, it cleanses the entire ulti now lol
On September 21 2011 00:08 Tooplark wrote: The biggest problem with Skarner's ganks is that he needs to get next to them and STAY next to them long enough to land 2 Qs before he can slow them (sometimes you can get the first one on the creeps but the point still stands). As such, CC from your laner makes ganking much much easier. Your ganks are devastating if you can get and stay close.
it's always possible to charge up the first Q in the bush before you start the gank. that way when you get in range the Q will slow them right off the bat.
also, in case anybody is thinking of trying, they fixed the tele glitch last night. When you cleanse, it cleanses the entire ulti now lol
I would like to ask whats wrong with scarner that nobody plays him. Even when he was free i didnt saw him. I might buy with my next 6300ip but i need to know if there is anything bad on him that nobody wants to play him
On September 21 2011 16:53 Hexagecz wrote: I would like to ask whats wrong with scarner that nobody plays him. Even when he was free i didnt saw him. I might buy with my next 6300ip but i need to know if there is anything bad on him that nobody wants to play him
He is just not viable for any serious play. He is hella fun but just as equally useless, way to gimmicky. Save your IP for something better.
On September 21 2011 16:53 Hexagecz wrote: I would like to ask whats wrong with scarner that nobody plays him. Even when he was free i didnt saw him. I might buy with my next 6300ip but i need to know if there is anything bad on him that nobody wants to play him
He is just not viable for any serious play. He is hella fun but just as equally useless, way to gimmicky. Save your IP for something better.
Watched Shushei dominate some team in the Go4lol yesterday with Skarner, and has re-awoken my thoughts about it. He seems pretty gimmicky and not as strong as a pick as other champs, but...
He doesn't comfortably fit any preexisting role. He does a lot of useful things though, especially in small fights or spread out ones. He has huge mobility, pushes fast, farms well, scales well, peels decently, can pick off people who are out of position, has a decent jungle and a mediocre lane. The buffs actually really helped him, at least the Q damage, because now he actually hurts before he finishes Sheen.
also: sheen, triforce totally overrated on Skarner Rageblade is pretty much #1 item. Sextech Funblade not my cup of tea. Use flat CDR blues and 0/12/18 (nimbleness/SoS) for 10% CDR. Blue buff = nearly maxed, bluebuff & bluepot = maxed, and if you can't hold blue buff it's pretty easy to get 30% cdr for cheap (SV Glacial nice defensive combo for 3k gold). Problem with rushing Rageblade is no mana pool, so you run OOM all the time.
On September 21 2011 22:10 rigwarl wrote: No jungler should ever be hogging blue, your AP solo lane is not only probably a better candidate, but they will be higher level.
Olaf, Skarner, and a few other junglers make a strong case for having blue simply because they suddenly do so much more damage with it. A lot of casters don't even really need blue. Also, solo lane Skarner should definitely get blue buff over something like Annie, Morgana, etc.
On September 21 2011 22:10 rigwarl wrote: No jungler should ever be hogging blue, your AP solo lane is not only probably a better candidate, but they will be higher level.
that statement is so bold. what if your ap is energy based or really doesnt need blue as much for other reasons?
On September 21 2011 22:10 rigwarl wrote: No jungler should ever be hogging blue, your AP solo lane is not only probably a better candidate, but they will be higher level.
that statement is so bold. what if your ap is energy based or really doesnt need blue as much for other reasons?
On the game I was referencing earlier, fnatic ran skarner top, lee sin in the jungle and akali in mid, so theres that I guess.
On September 21 2011 22:09 Tooplark wrote: He doesn't comfortably fit any preexisting role. He does a lot of useful things though, especially in small fights or spread out ones. He has huge mobility, pushes fast, farms well, scales well, peels decently, can pick off people who are out of position, has a decent jungle and a mediocre lane. The buffs actually really helped him, at least the Q damage, because now he actually hurts before he finishes Sheen.
also: sheen, triforce totally overrated on Skarner Rageblade is pretty much #1 item. Sextech Funblade not my cup of tea. Use flat CDR blues and 0/12/18 (nimbleness/SoS) for 10% CDR. Blue buff = nearly maxed, bluebuff & bluepot = maxed, and if you can't hold blue buff it's pretty easy to get 30% cdr for cheap (SV Glacial nice defensive combo for 3k gold). Problem with rushing Rageblade is no mana pool, so you run OOM all the time.
Rushing Trinity Force is overrated, but a quick Sheen (after Wriggle's) is a pretty good investment. It helps deal with those early game mana issues and the damage is significant. Combined with Wriggle's you can annihilate any jungle camp, including buff camps, in a matter of seconds. I abuse that power and stake out the opposing jungler's buff camps, especially blue. If you're good at tracking kill/respawn times it can get pretty ridiculous.
You don't need both CDR glyphs and 18 in utility. Either + Blue + Elixir is 40% CDR.
I should play around with Rageblade next time I play him, but Wriggle's+Sheen+"Your Jungle is Mine" is too fun.
On September 21 2011 23:58 rigwarl wrote: I didn't say anything about Skarner not being good with blue, I just said the jungler because he will be lower level.
Lower level doesn't really matter unless you're really, really far behind. What matters is what each champion brings to the team with blue buff (which is affected, but not wholly dictated, by levels). In Skarner's case his damage, jungling speed, counter-jungling, ganking potential and buff/dragon control increase significantly.
On September 21 2011 23:58 rigwarl wrote: I didn't say anything about Skarner not being good with blue, I just said the jungler because he will be lower level.
Amumu? Being a lower level hardly matters if the skill set is good unless you're cripplingly far behind.
On September 22 2011 07:55 Seuss wrote: I'm curious what makes him useless as a jungler that doesn't equally apply to him in lane or to Udyr.
Also, since I don't have a laning guide for him suggestions to that effect are appreciated.
You would have to use flash to close the distance in order to preform most ganks, and he has nothing in his kit that really allows him to close the distance.
Udyr has bear stance which allows him to close distance AND get a stun off.
On September 21 2011 23:58 rigwarl wrote: I didn't say anything about Skarner not being good with blue, I just said the jungler because he will be lower level.
Amumu? Being a lower level hardly matters if the skill set is good unless you're cripplingly far behind.
Amumu is frequently played and zero of them take blue (besides the level 1 blue, ofc). I'm not sure what you're saying, all the top teams are doing it wrong?
On September 22 2011 07:55 Seuss wrote: I'm curious what makes him useless as a jungler that doesn't equally apply to him in lane or to Udyr.
Also, since I don't have a laning guide for him suggestions to that effect are appreciated.
You would have to use flash to close the distance in order to preform most ganks, and he has nothing in his kit that really allows him to close the distance.
Udyr has bear stance which allows him to close distance AND get a stun off.
Skarner's W gives 15% movespeed, which is the same as Bear Stance (at rank 1). There's debate to be had over which is better, but saying Skarner "has nothing" for closing distances is patently false.
On September 22 2011 08:48 Norada wrote: I always thought a manamune would be decent on him since he relies on mana quite a bit.
He also scales fairly well with AD on his Q, especially on multiple targets. His base damage is among the highest in the game, so I've always prioritized Sheen on him, but it doesn't quite cover my mana issues. Maybe I'll try a tear after Sheen. My problem with manamune is just how much it cuts into your ability to stay ahead of the damage/movement curve with Sheen/Zeal. I'm wondering how much my early-mid game would be affected by trying to squeeze a tear in.
On September 21 2011 23:58 rigwarl wrote: I didn't say anything about Skarner not being good with blue, I just said the jungler because he will be lower level.
Amumu? Being a lower level hardly matters if the skill set is good unless you're cripplingly far behind.
Amumu is frequently played and zero of them take blue (besides the level 1 blue, ofc). I'm not sure what you're saying, all the top teams are doing it wrong?
Not sure what that has to do with the fact that Amumu is really freaking good with blue buff. I really don't think being behind in levels is the critical factor, but rather feeding the AP carry every possible edge they can get. Nothing says you can't tailor your team composition around that issue if you wanted to either, as already mentioned.
Whether or not people actually do that is another issue. Just because they choose to give it to the AP carry now doesn't mean it is clearly superior in every case and the jungler hogging blue will never work.
On September 21 2011 23:58 rigwarl wrote: I didn't say anything about Skarner not being good with blue, I just said the jungler because he will be lower level.
Amumu? Being a lower level hardly matters if the skill set is good unless you're cripplingly far behind.
Amumu is frequently played and zero of them take blue (besides the level 1 blue, ofc). I'm not sure what you're saying, all the top teams are doing it wrong?
Not sure what that has to do with the fact that Amumu is really freaking good with blue buff. I really don't think being behind in levels is the critical factor, but rather feeding the AP carry every possible edge they can get. Nothing says you can't tailor your team composition around that issue if you wanted to either, as already mentioned.
Whether or not people actually do that is another issue. Just because they choose to give it to the AP carry now doesn't mean it is clearly superior in every case and the jungler hogging blue will never work.
I would just like to quote this as brilliant TL posting logical, researched, and counter point on spot
I tried him, Im crap, but I was only good when people helped me be not crap. He is like sivir or others, sure could be but...why. Trust me I asked why on sivir I wanted to believe. I wanted to believe on the scorp but so far I cant.
Still not sure how to itemize him. Tried jungle and top lane and some games i feel like a baus and others meh, especially when other team gets lots of resist. Tried doing Sheen/Wits End/Rageblade/Triforce/Bloodrazer jungle and thats lots of dmg but not great survivabilty. If you go RoA/Lichbane/Deathcap your tankier with your shield/hp but you don't do as much dmg. Nashors GRB is alrite. I feel like you do have to build around his passive, lots of people saying to play AP skarner but then there is no real way to get massive attackspeed. His Q dmg is split which makes getting penetration on him meh like Jax, but Jax has a super steroid/nukes/sustain with gunblade. But if you are going for attackspeed, you got (nashors, grb, triforce, wits end, bloodrazer, malady), and most of them don't give defense or ap for your shield/heal. And if you go the attackspeed path you dont have sustain with spellvamp/lifesteal. Gunblade doesn't even give him thaat much sustain since q counts as aoe.
As far as I'm concerned Wriggle's -> Boots 1 -> Sheen -> Recurve -> Wit's End is the surefire best build path (with Merc's somewhere after Sheen). You end up with 110+ MR and Armor, which isn't amazing but it's far from squishy. Despite that notable defense you do a ton of damage, especially with blue buff.
Total cost: 4060-6060g. This is dirt cheap and super effective.
What you do from there is pretty much up to you. There are plenty of good options depending on the circumstances.
On September 22 2011 07:55 Seuss wrote: I'm curious what makes him useless as a jungler that doesn't equally apply to him in lane or to Udyr.
Also, since I don't have a laning guide for him suggestions to that effect are appreciated.
Off the top of my head:
Udyr is faster Udyr is less blue-dependent Udyr is stronger at 1v1ing people (combination of higher damage, innate dodge, turtle stance, and a stun every 6 seconds), making him harder to threaten in the jungle. Udyr becomes dragon-capable earlier
On September 22 2011 11:53 zer0das wrote: Not sure what that has to do with the fact that Amumu is really freaking good with blue buff. I really don't think being behind in levels is the critical factor, but rather feeding the AP carry every possible edge they can get. Nothing says you can't tailor your team composition around that issue if you wanted to either, as already mentioned.
Actually, Amumu does very little with blue buff if you take it when your ultimate is on CD. CDR sources do not affect cooldowns that are already ticking down, Q is high enough CD that blue is not likely to alter the number of meaningful stuns you get in a fight, and W naturally doesn't benefit from it. Which means that E is the only spell really benefitting from the CDR. Post-philo mana is not a concern either.
On September 22 2011 11:53 zer0das wrote: Whether or not people actually do that is another issue. Just because they choose to give it to the AP carry now doesn't mean it is clearly superior in every case and the jungler hogging blue will never work.
This is true, but at the same time, requiring blue to maintain midgame presence/farming speed is a definitive weakness of a champion that must be acknowledged.
On September 22 2011 07:55 Seuss wrote: I'm curious what makes him useless as a jungler that doesn't equally apply to him in lane or to Udyr.
Also, since I don't have a laning guide for him suggestions to that effect are appreciated.
Off the top of my head:
Udyr is faster Udyr is less blue-dependent Udyr is stronger at 1v1ing people (combination of higher damage, innate dodge, turtle stance, and a stun every 6 seconds), making him harder to threaten in the jungle. Udyr becomes dragon-capable earlier
It wasn't my intention to assert that Skarner and Udyr are perfectly equatable, but to address the comparison with Morde. While one can argue that Udyr is superior, arguing that Skarner is useless beyond farming the jungle seems difficult without also arguing the same for Udyr.
1) Predictable in Jungle : must start at blue and follow the good old route . Lv1 teemfight + blue steel sets him back imensly . Yes mumu has the same issue , but he does provide teem with game changing ult without items or bufs .
2) Mele with no insta gap closer : Eats ton of dmg if try Irelia / Akali / Jarvan shenanigans ( aka can't go in - burst - go out )
3) Blue whore - when i jungle Noc and Lee i can donate ALL blues to top/mid and still jungle fast and gank strong .
To summ up ... Skarner is a good idea , but just feels meh in currnt champ selection and picking him decreases win rate . Even if you are god of Skarners and posses good skills ( Sushei ) choosing other champ would make you mega god . .....
it's a little on the "reccomended" side but it really gets the job done once you get hextech + vamp scepter you pretty much don't have to b until a full item is done which allows you to tap into skarner true power his passive. staying in jungle constantly auto attacking allows you to ultimate very rapidly sometimes ganking a lane only 30 seconds apart which is very rapid. allowing your mid game to consist of entirely ruining any lane you want as often as you want.
EQW R>Q>W>E
dodge yellow flat AP quint MR/lvl blue flat AD red.
your W along with good positioning really allow for some excellent ganks. usually i use my flash on my lvl 2 gank so by the time i need it again it'll be up and using flash for the gank allows you to do very well with it. Skarner is currently my best jungler. he's fast, he counter jungles, he ganks very well once you know what you are doing and he doesn't have to go back. your biggest hiccup is after gunblade when you sometimes have to buy armor + cloak before finishing either item because of damage output on the other team.
On September 23 2011 17:05 NightWalks wrote: Why i wouldn't pick skarner :
1) Predictable in Jungle : must start at blue and follow the good old route . Lv1 teemfight + blue steel sets him back imensly . Yes mumu has the same issue , but he does provide teem with game changing ult without items or bufs .
2) Mele with no insta gap closer : Eats ton of dmg if try Irelia / Akali / Jarvan shenanigans ( aka can't go in - burst - go out )
3) Blue whore - when i jungle Noc and Lee i can donate ALL blues to top/mid and still jungle fast and gank strong .
To summ up ... Skarner is a good idea , but just feels meh in currnt champ selection and picking him decreases win rate . Even if you are god of Skarners and posses good skills ( Sushei ) choosing other champ would make you mega god . .....
#2 and #3 are fair points, but #1 isn't. Blue may be the best/most obvious place to start, but Skarner can follow other routes.
On September 23 2011 17:05 NightWalks wrote: Why i wouldn't pick skarner :
1) Predictable in Jungle : must start at blue and follow the good old route . Lv1 teemfight + blue steel sets him back imensly . Yes mumu has the same issue , but he does provide teem with game changing ult without items or bufs .
2) Mele with no insta gap closer : Eats ton of dmg if try Irelia / Akali / Jarvan shenanigans ( aka can't go in - burst - go out )
3) Blue whore - when i jungle Noc and Lee i can donate ALL blues to top/mid and still jungle fast and gank strong .
To summ up ... Skarner is a good idea , but just feels meh in currnt champ selection and picking him decreases win rate . Even if you are god of Skarners and posses good skills ( Sushei ) choosing other champ would make you mega god . .....
#2 and #3 are fair points, but #1 isn't. Blue may be the best/most obvious place to start, but Skarner can follow other routes.
This especially if you start with E. you can go wraith wolves wraiths minis gank back blue easily. as well as minis first. you can even if the other team is protecting blue go their wraiths wolves wraiths blue minis
and instant gap closers i don't feel are impporant at all for junglers.
rammus udyr trundle nocturne (sans ultimate) skarner all don't have that.
and that blue whore thing i don't even view as a bad thing. good skarners will keep track of opponents blue and constantly take that one for themselves. at least i do. i give my blue to anyone who needs it.
skarners ultimate is also very game changing in that it can happen every 30 seconds and counter any teleport skill including flash and blinks when you time it right. so the point about ignoring 1 for mumu i dsagree with when alot of ultimates for junglers are game changing. nocturnes alone for instance forces people to play safe even when nocturne is ganking another lane being able to force a team kill on an enemy champion like skarners ultimate does is also game changing. hell it's also good to use on the enemy CC tank to keep them from CCing your team.
On September 23 2011 17:05 NightWalks wrote: Why i wouldn't pick skarner :
1) Predictable in Jungle : must start at blue and follow the good old route . Lv1 teemfight + blue steel sets him back imensly . Yes mumu has the same issue , but he does provide teem with game changing ult without items or bufs .
2) Mele with no insta gap closer : Eats ton of dmg if try Irelia / Akali / Jarvan shenanigans ( aka can't go in - burst - go out )
3) Blue whore - when i jungle Noc and Lee i can donate ALL blues to top/mid and still jungle fast and gank strong .
To summ up ... Skarner is a good idea , but just feels meh in currnt champ selection and picking him decreases win rate . Even if you are god of Skarners and posses good skills ( Sushei ) choosing other champ would make you mega god . .....
#2 and #3 are fair points, but #1 isn't. Blue may be the best/most obvious place to start, but Skarner can follow other routes.
This especially if you start with E. you can go wraith wolves wraiths minis gank back blue easily. as well as minis first. you can even if the other team is protecting blue go their wraiths wolves wraiths blue minis
and instant gap closers i don't feel are impporant at all for junglers.
rammus udyr trundle nocturne (sans ultimate) skarner all don't have that.
and that blue whore thing i don't even view as a bad thing. good skarners will keep track of opponents blue and constantly take that one for themselves. at least i do. i give my blue to anyone who needs it.
skarners ultimate is also very game changing in that it can happen every 30 seconds and counter any teleport skill including flash and blinks when you time it right. so the point about ignoring 1 for mumu i dsagree with when alot of ultimates for junglers are game changing. nocturnes alone for instance forces people to play safe even when nocturne is ganking another lane being able to force a team kill on an enemy champion like skarners ultimate does is also game changing. hell it's also good to use on the enemy CC tank to keep them from CCing your team.
On the point of getting blue later, Blue buff gets more hp the later the game is, since his hp increases with the highest level in the game. Jungler are typically on par with leveling as a duo-lane, which is usually 1-2 levels behind mid. Therefore, the later you jungle, the longer it takes to get blue. Getting blue is probably more beneficial than getting it late.
On the second point about gap closer: It is true that they do not have instant gap closers, but there is a huge difference between them and skarner. The immediate CC: Rammus - powerball increases your movement speed, temporary knock back, and gives time to instantly taunt them. Udyr: Bear stance gives you bonus movement speed and a stun Trundle: Pillar of filth alters the terrain to block of retreat paths Nocturne: Duskbringer increases your movement speed, then you can fear them. Skarner has none of this. His only non-ult CC is a slow, and that only occurs when you hit the target twice. If Skarner had a better cc, then i would have no problem with no gap closer.
it takes practically no time at all getting it at lvl 3 compared to lvl 1. takes pretty much the same time maybe a second or two more. but having E W Q all available you do clear blue at about the same rate.
Skarner: W increases movespeed, then you can slow them. using non ult as an important descriptor only matters when the cooldown is an issue but skarners ultimate cd is very low when his passive is put into account. and hitting his slow twice takes 2 seconds hit with q auto attack 1 second slow. skarners cc is on par with nocturns in that he requires a period of time in order for it to even matter. while you can flash out of both. skarners occurs much faster than nocturnes and lasts longer. oftentimes once you get slowed you are slowed until rescue or death while nocturnes fear lasts a second and half typically. skarners cc is very good actually but thats more an in practice cc than theory crafting issue. i completely ignore udyrs cc as an actual CC since it's pretty much equivilent to rivens W. lasts practically no time at all and only gives enough time for 1 attack.
On September 23 2011 00:34 Seuss wrote: It wasn't my intention to assert that Skarner and Udyr are perfectly equatable, but to address the comparison with Morde. While one can argue that Udyr is superior, arguing that Skarner is useless beyond farming the jungle seems difficult without also arguing the same for Udyr.
How do you mean?
I gave you two ways in which Udyr as a jungler impacts the early game in ways Skarner doesn't (ability to counterjungle due to speed and 1v1 fighting advantage, and ability to threaten Dragon early). So no, "arguing that Skarner is useless beyond farming the jungle" can be done without implying the same of Udyr because Udyr is a comparatively capable counterjungler and early Dragoner.
Attack Speed per level increased to 2.1% from 1.44% Energize will no longer activate when attacking Towers. Crystal Slash Mana cost decreased to 15 at all ranks from 22/24/26/28/30 Fracture will now heal Skarner if Fracture kills its target. Impale duration increased to 1.75 from 1.5 seconds
Hextech Gunblade Attack Damage reduced to 40 from 60 Ability Power reduced to 70 from 75 Life Steal reduced to 15% from 20% Spell Vamp reduced to 20% from 25% and is now UNIQUE
It might be too early to ask, but does anyone think the changes to Skarner will make him excel at a certain role? Also, is the new Gunblade still better on him than something like BT/Sanguine or Starks?
Gunblade is still better than BT for Skarner, but I'm not sure where it stands in the grand scheme of things. I suspect that finishing Trinity Force after Wit's End is a better move at this point, but I haven't had a chance to test yet.
Anyone had some good time to play with him post-buffs? I've gotten a few games in and really noticed an improvement in the jungle (actually have a mana bar now) but been busy.
so skarner is brokenly OP right now i ban him every game, and if he's not banned i pick him. i have only lost once with him and that was due to my own failure. if i'm playing skarner it doesn't matter what my teammates do; as long as I don't make any fatal errors, i will win the game singlehandedly lol
runes you want a mix of arpen (12 total), armor (13ish), and as much attackspeed as you can muster. MS quints and MR/level blues are acceptable but will slow your jungle.
0/14/16 including nimbleness
blue (leashed) wolves wraiths red golems (clear time ~3:30, only 2-3 pots used unless you had an awful leash, then 3-4 pots used), gank, wolves wraiths golems back
cloth + 5 wriggles mercs (important to finish boots 2 before first item, mobility is KEY on skarner) RAGEblade appropriate tank items including wit's end, force of nature, frozen heart, randuin, shurelia
basically you have 2 roles: 1. shurelia + W or W + flash the SECOND you see someone that isn't alistar/rammus/renekton out of position, R them into your team, force the enemy to fight a 4v5 2. in a teamfight that's initiated before you get there or one where your ult is not needed to intiate, use your ult to isolate a single opponent and 1v1 them to all hell. skarner with just rageblade is absolutely batshit insane for damage. your E + W gives you so much unbelievable effective hidden HP that you can CRUSH people that are much more farmed than you by just being balls to the wall aggressive. as long as you aren't exhausted you'll beat anyone 1v1.
solo top skarner is even better but you'll have a hard time getting your team to let you do that. in solo top you basically want to just last hit peacefully until your opponent moves into harass you. as soon as they're in Q range, just Q auto auto Q auto Q auto. you will first of all kill all their creeps as they try to hide in them, effectively eliminating creep aggro, and second of all win every damage trade. against true sustainers it's important to just combo them down from full to zero or burn summoners - you won't win a war of attrition against irelia or udyr, but you WILL be able to kill them in a 1v1 so just force committed fights any time you can
wriggles is ok, I'm not sure you need it though. rip through creeps pretty hard anyway. I've been starting cloth and just buying ninja tabi on my first back, crazy ganks with level 2 boots and red a few minutes into the game.
Anyone feel like getting E at all before you have to is kind of useless? Even on 3-creep camps, the heal from rank 1 E is just barely more than the increased shield value from having another point in W (30 + 15 + 7 = 52 HP healed, compared to +45 shield value per rank of W). It does some damage, but its arguably not worth the mana, especially when you don't have blue buff. I'd much rather have another rank of W for more of the MS/AS steroid and shield.
Obviously this changes with AP sources in the equation, but I'd still think that I wouldn't get a point in E until like level 10.
And yeah, the other thing is that Wriggle's feels kind of unnecessary, and I don't think you can afford to wait till after you've spent 3800 on Wriggle's + Rageblade to tank out unless you're doing really well. I can see the argument for having Wriggle's (ASpd steroid + Wriggle's lets you present a much earlier Dragon threat, for one), but if you end up getting it, you may have to delay finishing Rageblade till after you tank out a bit, possibly opting for a more economical damage item like Stinger or Sheen instead.
EDIT: Looking at the OP, QEQW definitely feels like the wrong way to open, IMO. 70 HP shield on 1st rank W is more damage blocked than the amount of HP healed from rank 1 E, and the attack speed steroid from W should translate into more damage than rank 1 E. Not to mention having W at level 2-3 lets you more easily attempt level 3 ganks if one of the nearby lanes has the opportunity for one. Either QWQW or QWQE depending on whether you feel having E at level 4 is worthwhile or not.
i see all your arguments yango but the thing you are not taking into account is that E does damage FASTER than W. it's an instant aoe nuke that bursts down wolves/wraiths extremely quickly. while W might be a bit safer, it's also much slower because (a) W's cooldown is like triple E's cooldown, and (b) W doesn't do AOE damage. in a world where clearing the jungle as fast as scorpionly possible is priority #1 (because then you can run into your opponent's jungle and steal his camps and you hit 6 faster which is huge for skarner) i can't see giving up E at level 2. BUT after that i max R > Q > W > E. ESPECIALLY considering that skarner needs like 2 pots anyways, a "safer" opening is totally unnecessary
as for wriggles, the ward is invaluable ofc. in a few games where i got a successful gank off on my first run, i went razer -> boots -> pickaxe -> rageblade -> wriggles later, but i do feel like with the build that i choose to use (with so little true HP) you need the lifesteal for more effective HP
Skarner should prioritize jungle speed over jungle safety. QWQW is stronger for ganking but QEQW gets you red and 6 faster = also stronger ganks. R>Q>W>E with one point in E at 2 and maybe a second at 8 or 10. Rageblade or Gunblade or Triforce into pure tank, with one more DPS item 5th or 6th. Gunblade leaves you lacking in aspd Rageblade leaves you lacking in sustain Triforce is like rageblade but with more speed. Not recommended.
On October 23 2011 09:05 UniversalSnip wrote: Is there a good route that starts longsword? That seems like it would be pretty unfair.
You could almost definitely start wolves wraiths golems, back for clothe and 2 pots, and then do a full route BUT it still won't get you to 6 and I think against level 2 or 4 gankers it could delay your gank too much
I can't say I've built any items that HAVEN'T been good on him so far though. The sketchiest thing I've tried has been ghostblade and even that was ok.
yeah... like i was saying skarner is just straight broken right now you can literally do anything you want and your teammates can do anything they want and you will win 80% of your games without trying
this was solo top and yes this was solo queue not arranged 5s
Basically any combination of Wriggle's/Sheen/Stinger/Wit's End/Gunblade/Rageblade will make you able to 1v1 any opponent who can't instagib you. Your most dangerous opponents are people like Malzahar. Everyone else it's just a question of whether you can kill them before they run to their team or a tower.
fyi, lvl 2 E is infinitely better than W at lvl 2. E heals + 80 aoe damage nuke that you can use around twice a small camp. W doesnt make you much faster as the shield breaks so fast that it does nothing for you practically in terms on jungle speed.
btw, can do wolf wraith double with long sword pot
Longsword first isn't great unless you really wanna rush bruta or phage or hexdrinker (lol) Do Cloth first or something that builds into a good cheap ganking or jungling item (boots, sheen, w/e)
QEQW is better for jungling but QWQW is better for ganking. Judgement call.
Thoughts on running AP or CDR blues for jungle skarner? gtr suggested AS blues for speed but I feel like you'd get more out of either of these. I'd test this myself but I don't have AS blues so I have no way to compare them
On October 28 2011 08:34 STS17 wrote: Thoughts on running AP or CDR blues for jungle skarner? gtr suggested AS blues for speed but I feel like you'd get more out of either of these. I'd test this myself but I don't have AS blues so I have no way to compare them
I'm running cdr, cause that's my general jungle page, but if I didn't take cdr, I'd go MR. AP is okay on Skarner, but mr is just so great with your shield and all. I'm confident gtr is right about AS blues, since AS also gives you indirect cdr as in hitting stuff reduces your cd's.
Fuck this guy. I don't know what it is I'm doing wrong, but every single game out of 6 I have played on him (jungling) I think I've gotten like 0 or 1 kill. 5+ deaths. Can't gank worth a dick (especially when your teammates don't help; you can't even fucking reach your target without help). If you build Triforce first after wriggle's he is squishy as fuck and dies instantly.
I haven't regretted buying a champion this much in a long time. I dunno SV/TOO make it work somehow but even after watching them I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
On October 31 2011 13:18 WaveofShadow wrote: Fuck this guy. I don't know what it is I'm doing wrong, but every single game out of 6 I have played on him (jungling) I think I've gotten like 0 or 1 kill. 5+ deaths. Can't gank worth a dick (especially when your teammates don't help; you can't even fucking reach your target without help). If you build Triforce first after wriggle's he is squishy as fuck and dies instantly.
I haven't regretted buying a champion this much in a long time. I dunno SV/TOO make it work somehow but even after watching them I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
I only casually play skarner, and have ok success with him, so take my advise with grain of salt. W followed by R then QQQ should be ok for most ganks, also i dont get how u die so much, i usaully build him fairly tanky and it should be easy since skarner is one of the fast at clearing jungle.
On October 31 2011 13:18 WaveofShadow wrote: Fuck this guy. I don't know what it is I'm doing wrong, but every single game out of 6 I have played on him (jungling) I think I've gotten like 0 or 1 kill. 5+ deaths. Can't gank worth a dick (especially when your teammates don't help; you can't even fucking reach your target without help). If you build Triforce first after wriggle's he is squishy as fuck and dies instantly.
I haven't regretted buying a champion this much in a long time. I dunno SV/TOO make it work somehow but even after watching them I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
stop ganking at level 4 skarner won't lose a 1v1 if he has either buff, and especially not if he has both buffs so when you clear your jungle at 3:30, run immediately to opponent's wolves. take them. if he comes, kill him. if he doesn't, go take your wolves then his wraiths. if he comes, kill him. rinse and repeat. save your flash (or if you use it, use it pre-level 2) for level 6. W from brush, flash ult pull = free kill, 100% of the time. snowball from there
build is razer -> boots -> wriggle's -> rageblade -> mercs -> negatron -> chainmail -> appropriate tank items -> triforce is not a part of this build from the jungle
skarner is a master creepcamp clearer so it's extremely important after every gank or gank attempt to clear your whole jungle again so you can max your income. this is especially true for skarner because of 2 reasons: (1) your gank without your ult isn't ballin' as a baller, and (2) you can lower your ult CD by attacking creeps
in teamfights if you catch someone out of position you have to W flash ult pull them into your team. if they initiate on you it's just best to lock down their AP or AD carry. teamfights come with practice they're definitely not intuitive like they are with amumu/udyr. once your ult is down, however, you just turn into sona. QEWQQQQQEQQQQEWQQQQQEQQQQEW use every spell on cooldown
On October 31 2011 13:18 WaveofShadow wrote: Fuck this guy. I don't know what it is I'm doing wrong, but every single game out of 6 I have played on him (jungling) I think I've gotten like 0 or 1 kill. 5+ deaths. Can't gank worth a dick (especially when your teammates don't help; you can't even fucking reach your target without help). If you build Triforce first after wriggle's he is squishy as fuck and dies instantly.
I haven't regretted buying a champion this much in a long time. I dunno SV/TOO make it work somehow but even after watching them I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
stop ganking at level 4 skarner won't lose a 1v1 if he has either buff, and especially not if he has both buffs so when you clear your jungle at 3:30, run immediately to opponent's wolves. take them. if he comes, kill him. if he doesn't, go take your wolves then his wraiths. if he comes, kill him. rinse and repeat. save your flash (or if you use it, use it pre-level 2) for level 6. W from brush, flash ult pull = free kill, 100% of the time. snowball from there
build is razer -> boots -> wriggle's -> rageblade -> mercs -> negatron -> chainmail -> appropriate tank items -> triforce is not a part of this build from the jungle
skarner is a master creepcamp clearer so it's extremely important after every gank or gank attempt to clear your whole jungle again so you can max your income. this is especially true for skarner because of 2 reasons: (1) your gank without your ult isn't ballin' as a baller, and (2) you can lower your ult CD by attacking creeps
in teamfights if you catch someone out of position you have to W flash ult pull them into your team. if they initiate on you it's just best to lock down their AP or AD carry. teamfights come with practice they're definitely not intuitive like they are with amumu/udyr. once your ult is down, however, you just turn into sona. QEWQQQQQEQQQQEWQQQQQEQQQQEW use every spell on cooldown
Haha appreciate the advice....let's see. Stop ganking at level 4....lol. Makes sense since his early gank is shit, but so counterintuitive to all the jungling I've been practicing/learning thus far. Especially since I don't trust my lanes to ever win on their own. Ever.
Rageblade was the first thing I ever tried on him. Was even squishier than with Triforce, and lose MS/phage slow making ganking even harder. (Damage was decent, though loss of Sheen proc was pretty noticeable.) Also found that even with Q mana cost being so low, without blue buff he just eats through mana like nobody's business, leaving me with nothing a lot of the time.
I did notice he clears camps insanely fast which is really great, ut every time I would go invade I could never make anything happen because: a) no help from team often making it 2v1 after I brought enemy jungler down to low health when their team came to help. b) getting one Q off doesn't proc slow so they get away. c) Skarner's damage is balls compared to like everyone early. AoE is great, but single target damage...ugh.
As for teamfights, I seem to do ok there, but nothing is more frustrating than trying to ult someone and them running into fog or out of sight or out of range and it just fucking fizzling. Happens all the time. Short range bullshit.
Ugh. I guess I'll keep trying because I don't want to give him up and people seem to think he's pretty good so it must be me. Inc 4 more 0-3-xx games.
Don't stop ganking at lvl 4. He has an extremely fast clear and can gank with a lot of health at lvl 4. His shield ms boost + red + Q slow makes for a VERY strong gank. If your lvl 4 ganks are failing, you are doing something very wrong. Just go to a lane that's slightly pushed, gap close and slow, flash straight on top of them if they flash out when theyre already slowed and kill them. If they flash before u catch them, just come back later.
On October 31 2011 17:34 gtrsrs wrote: stop ganking at level 4 skarner won't lose a 1v1 if he has either buff, and especially not if he has both buffs so when you clear your jungle at 3:30, run immediately to opponent's wolves. take them. if he comes, kill him. if he doesn't, go take your wolves then his wraiths. if he comes, kill him. rinse and repeat. save your flash (or if you use it, use it pre-level 2) for level 6. W from brush, flash ult pull = free kill, 100% of the time. snowball from there
What are your thoughts on a rush-6 path then? Seeing as post-buff Skarner isn't blue dependent, it doesn't make sense to do a blue->minis clear when you're not looking to gank at 4.
Personally i run MS quints on him, AS reds, armor yellow, mr blue. Go for movespeed and flash in utility, rest in def, one point in smite. Movespeed really helps with ganks, counterjungling, escaping, initiating. Just do a full clear then gank when there is a chance to gank. If not just b and start clearing/counterjungling, you are a control not a ganking jungler. I go for Wriggels and Boots, everything after boots is purely situational, i really like shurelias on him because it helps a lot with initiations. Sheen is core, you dont need triforce too early. Viable items are fh, we, shurelias, triforce, fon, atmogs, gunblade, ga, aegis.
On November 01 2011 00:41 freezaa wrote: Personally i run MS quints on him, AS reds, armor yellow, mr blue. Go for movespeed and flash in utility, rest in def, one point in smite. Movespeed really helps with ganks, counterjungling, escaping, initiating. Just do a full clear then gank when there is a chance to gank. If not just b and start clearing/counterjungling, you are a control not a ganking jungler. I go for Wriggels and Boots, everything after boots is purely situational, i really like shurelias on him because it helps a lot with initiations. Sheen is core, you dont need triforce too early. Viable items are fh, we, shurelias, triforce, fon, atmogs, gunblade, ga, aegis.
Tried this exact runeset once and I ended up very low in the jungle after a clear (had to hold off a bit and heal as well)---> much slower jungle. Better for ganking and CDR, but overall inferior to adding a little armor pen I think. Can't seem to find the right mix of AS/ArP/MS to be useful.
Yango by quick to 6 you mean clear small camps-->(possible wolf/wraith/golem jack)-->b--> full clear? I must admit I haven't tried that due to Skarner's early blue dependence and my worry that not ganking early= failed lanes....I'll give that a shot as well.
I dunno overall I can't seem to get past Skarner's glaring weaknesses for his strengths. I agree that he is control jungler >> ganking jungler but even with that camp clear speed and farming he is still MUCH more item dependent than other control junglers like Udyr for example, and is very weak until he gets 3 or so items, and even then not tanky until he picks up 4. (Turtle stance >>> Crystal shield)
On October 31 2011 13:18 WaveofShadow wrote: Fuck this guy. I don't know what it is I'm doing wrong, but every single game out of 6 I have played on him (jungling) I think I've gotten like 0 or 1 kill. 5+ deaths. Can't gank worth a dick (especially when your teammates don't help; you can't even fucking reach your target without help). If you build Triforce first after wriggle's he is squishy as fuck and dies instantly.
I haven't regretted buying a champion this much in a long time. I dunno SV/TOO make it work somehow but even after watching them I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
stop ganking at level 4 skarner won't lose a 1v1 if he has either buff, and especially not if he has both buffs so when you clear your jungle at 3:30, run immediately to opponent's wolves. take them. if he comes, kill him. if he doesn't, go take your wolves then his wraiths. if he comes, kill him. rinse and repeat. save your flash (or if you use it, use it pre-level 2) for level 6. W from brush, flash ult pull = free kill, 100% of the time. snowball from there
build is razer -> boots -> wriggle's -> rageblade -> mercs -> negatron -> chainmail -> appropriate tank items -> triforce is not a part of this build from the jungle
skarner is a master creepcamp clearer so it's extremely important after every gank or gank attempt to clear your whole jungle again so you can max your income. this is especially true for skarner because of 2 reasons: (1) your gank without your ult isn't ballin' as a baller, and (2) you can lower your ult CD by attacking creeps
in teamfights if you catch someone out of position you have to W flash ult pull them into your team. if they initiate on you it's just best to lock down their AP or AD carry. teamfights come with practice they're definitely not intuitive like they are with amumu/udyr. once your ult is down, however, you just turn into sona. QEWQQQQQEQQQQEWQQQQQEQQQQEW use every spell on cooldown
Haha appreciate the advice....let's see. Stop ganking at level 4....lol. Makes sense since his early gank is shit, but so counterintuitive to all the jungling I've been practicing/learning thus far. Especially since I don't trust my lanes to ever win on their own. Ever.
Rageblade was the first thing I ever tried on him. Was even squishier than with Triforce, and lose MS/phage slow making ganking even harder. (Damage was decent, though loss of Sheen proc was pretty noticeable.) Also found that even with Q mana cost being so low, without blue buff he just eats through mana like nobody's business, leaving me with nothing a lot of the time.
I did notice he clears camps insanely fast which is really great, ut every time I would go invade I could never make anything happen because: a) no help from team often making it 2v1 after I brought enemy jungler down to low health when their team came to help. b) getting one Q off doesn't proc slow so they get away. c) Skarner's damage is balls compared to like everyone early. AoE is great, but single target damage...ugh.
As for teamfights, I seem to do ok there, but nothing is more frustrating than trying to ult someone and them running into fog or out of sight or out of range and it just fucking fizzling. Happens all the time. Short range bullshit.
Ugh. I guess I'll keep trying because I don't want to give him up and people seem to think he's pretty good so it must be me. Inc 4 more 0-3-xx games.
invading is all about understanding which opposing jungler you're playing against it sounds to me like the problems you're finding are just coming from lack of jungle experience, not from skarner. if your opponent is say, riven or pirate, who don't start blue as often as other junglers and clear a bit slower, you can go for their blue after your clear. if you're on the bottom half of the map, you just finished wraiths, you saw from initial CVs that enemy started wolves, and you feel an impending gank coming top lane, just bumrush their blue and take it. if they fail the gank AND you steal their blue, congratulations you just won the jungle. that's a crippling blow. if while you're finishing their blue, they fail the gank and start heading towards the blue, you pop a pot and wait in the brush with the last half of your red and a fresh blue courtesy of them, and they facecheck that brush? congrats you just won the game. if they blow flash to get away, don't chase - you're in enemy territory. you did your job now get out
i do agree with you that ganking with skarner pre-6 is hard, but i also agree with manbearpig that you're doing it wrong. you rush in with W for the speed, pop Q on them the second you're in range, slow immediately with red, and then they will not escape without flash. if they pop flash, you aren't catching them, so don't tower dive or chase just disengage and go steal some more jungle.
keep trying rageblade. yes it's a very offensive oriented item that will make you feel squishy, but no it's not comparable to triforce. first of all it's like half the cost so you can get rageblade + negatron + chainmail by the time you'd have triforce and that's your core so that's good. second of all once you have rageblade you are a dueling GOD because that AS and AP make your shield and heal come up constantly making you deceptively invincible.
i agree with the ult bullshit. one of the most frustrating things is ulting when someone is below you on the screen. the range for a pointing-down-ult is so bullshit tiny that it's retarded. twice in my game against jatt+co, i went for ganks on voyboy, flashed literally on top of him and ulted, and it fizzled because due to the weird camera angle i only thought i was on top of him when really i was apparently 1091023948 range away. i was raging
as for running out of mana, i don't find it to be true. Q is flat 15 mana always. rageblade gives you what, a 5s window to keep the charges up without resetting? 15 mp5 to keep it charged. skarner's regen is 6.45 + 0.45/level, you get rageblade by like level 9 or 10 or 11 usually, so you have anywhere from 10.5 to 11.4 mp5. so you're losing like 3-4mp5? that's 0.7 mana per second when you have a base pool of 600+. that's about 15 minutes of Q-spam before you go oom. don't spam your W and E out of combat, problem solved.
On October 31 2011 17:34 gtrsrs wrote: stop ganking at level 4 skarner won't lose a 1v1 if he has either buff, and especially not if he has both buffs so when you clear your jungle at 3:30, run immediately to opponent's wolves. take them. if he comes, kill him. if he doesn't, go take your wolves then his wraiths. if he comes, kill him. rinse and repeat. save your flash (or if you use it, use it pre-level 2) for level 6. W from brush, flash ult pull = free kill, 100% of the time. snowball from there
What are your thoughts on a rush-6 path then? Seeing as post-buff Skarner isn't blue dependent, it doesn't make sense to do a blue->minis clear when you're not looking to gank at 4.
i rush 6 by taking enemy camps. in order to feel safe in the enemy jungle i want both buffs. i did try a mini-camp -> full clear once and i just felt like it was more vulnerable to counterjungling and i had virtually no impact on the game. plus delaying your first blue means delaying your second blue which hurts your AP carry IMO
also in case anyone is interested, you CAN start wolves before blue spawns, clear them and get to blue by 1:55 for an even faster jungle, but it does get you way lower and you clear SO fast that enemy camps won't even be respawned by the time you clear the jungle so you end up sitting in their jungle waiting for their camps at much lower HP and it's just not worth it IMO
invading is all about understanding which opposing jungler you're playing against it sounds to me like the problems you're finding are just coming from lack of jungle experience, not from skarner. if your opponent is say, riven or pirate, who don't start blue as often as other junglers and clear a bit slower, you can go for their blue after your clear. if you're on the bottom half of the map, you just finished wraiths, you saw from initial CVs that enemy started wolves, and you feel an impending gank coming top lane, just bumrush their blue and take it. if they fail the gank AND you steal their blue, congratulations you just won the jungle. that's a crippling blow. if while you're finishing their blue, they fail the gank and start heading towards the blue, you pop a pot and wait in the brush with the last half of your red and a fresh blue courtesy of them, and they facecheck that brush? congrats you just won the game. if they blow flash to get away, don't chase - you're in enemy territory. you did your job now get out
I will agree here that invading is not my strongest suit, but I also know that invading requires a certain amount of team map awareness that is usually a luxury in the games I tend to play and the people I tend to play with. Whatever, more practice here required for sure.
i do agree with you that ganking with skarner pre-6 is hard, but i also agree with manbearpig that you're doing it wrong. you rush in with W for the speed, pop Q on them the second you're in range, slow immediately with red, and then they will not escape without flash. if they pop flash, you aren't catching them, so don't tower dive or chase just disengage and go steal some more jungle.
I'm almost insulted here by the insinuation that I don't know how to gank. This isn't exactly my first rodeo, and also why I didn't respond to manbearpig. I am well aware of what should work, and what skills to use in what order, however wards are a huge preventative to getting within that 100 range that Skarner needs to successfully gank (or get the enemy to blow flash). Other champs often have something at range that helps them close distance/do damage; Skarner has absolutely nothing, so if the enemy isn't batshit retarded, you will never get near them pre-6. Even IF you somehow get to them pre-6 and they have flash down, the only way you're going to kill them is if they're having sex with your fucking turret. It takes forever for Skarner to kill anyone at low levels, and the chase distance to their turret is going to have to be huge in order for him to rack up enough to take down anybody. Post 6 is another story, but the only way you're getting in range for R-->QQQ is if you blow flash, and even then you gotta be on TOP of them. If they blow flash too (which often happens) it's a huge fucking waste and then you can't get close enough to anybody to ult until flash is up again or until a teamfight.
keep trying rageblade. yes it's a very offensive oriented item that will make you feel squishy, but no it's not comparable to triforce. first of all it's like half the cost so you can get rageblade + negatron + chainmail by the time you'd have triforce and that's your core so that's good. second of all once you have rageblade you are a dueling GOD because that AS and AP make your shield and heal come up constantly making you deceptively invincible.
Will try this again.
i agree with the ult bullshit. one of the most frustrating things is ulting when someone is below you on the screen. the range for a pointing-down-ult is so bullshit tiny that it's retarded. twice in my game against jatt+co, i went for ganks on voyboy, flashed literally on top of him and ulted, and it fizzled because due to the weird camera angle i only thought i was on top of him when really i was apparently 1091023948 range away. i was raging
as for running out of mana, i don't find it to be true. Q is flat 15 mana always. rageblade gives you what, a 5s window to keep the charges up without resetting? 15 mp5 to keep it charged. skarner's regen is 6.45 + 0.45/level, you get rageblade by like level 9 or 10 or 11 usually, so you have anywhere from 10.5 to 11.4 mp5. so you're losing like 3-4mp5? that's 0.7 mana per second when you have a base pool of 600+. that's about 15 minutes of Q-spam before you go oom. don't spam your W and E out of combat, problem solved.
Definitely calling you out on this. If you're still clearing jungle after you pick up rageblade, hell whenever you're clearing jungle, you're spamming Q at a much faster rate than once every 5 seconds. Your autoattacks alone cause Q to come off cooldown faster, and then with rageblade, even faster. Q every 2-3 seconds is more the reality. Assuming you can spam Q twice every 5 seconds (which you can, especially with rageblade) then you're losing 30mp/5 while gaining only 10-11. 600 - 20per5 = 2 and a half minutes of Q spam to be out of mana. And that's if you NEVER use E for sustain or W for speed boost/attack speed. How can you jungle successfully pre-rageblade if not using W or E at all? And f you're telling me to slow down to conserve mana, then Skarner's farm slows down, and he becomes shittier.
On October 31 2011 23:38 TheYango wrote: Show nested quote +
What are your thoughts on a rush-6 path then? Seeing as post-buff Skarner isn't blue dependent, it doesn't make sense to do a blue->minis clear when you're not looking to gank at 4.
i rush 6 by taking enemy camps. in order to feel safe in the enemy jungle i want both buffs. i did try a mini-camp -> full clear once and i just felt like it was more vulnerable to counterjungling and i had virtually no impact on the game. plus delaying your first blue means delaying your second blue which hurts your AP carry IMO
also in case anyone is interested, you CAN start wolves before blue spawns, clear them and get to blue by 1:55 for an even faster jungle, but it does get you way lower and you clear SO fast that enemy camps won't even be respawned by the time you clear the jungle so you end up sitting in their jungle waiting for their camps at much lower HP and it's just not worth it IMO
So essentially learn to invade better. That I know is a glaring weakness in my jungling (that and CV spots) so I will work on that. The other stuff though....I dunno.
On November 01 2011 01:54 WaveofShadow wrote: I'm almost insulted here by the insinuation that I don't know how to gank. This isn't exactly my first rodeo, and also why I didn't respond to manbearpig. I am well aware of what should work, and what skills to use in what order, however wards are a huge preventative to getting within that 100 range that Skarner needs to successfully gank (or get the enemy to blow flash). Other champs often have something at range that helps them close distance/do damage; Skarner has absolutely nothing, so if the enemy isn't batshit retarded, you will never get near them pre-6. Even IF you somehow get to them pre-6 and they have flash down, the only way you're going to kill them is if they're having sex with your fucking turret. It takes forever for Skarner to kill anyone at low levels, and the chase distance to their turret is going to have to be huge in order for him to rack up enough to take down anybody. Post 6 is another story, but the only way you're getting in range for R-->QQQ is if you blow flash, and even then you gotta be on TOP of them. If they blow flash too (which often happens) it's a huge fucking waste and then you can't get close enough to anybody to ult until flash is up again or until a teamfight.
lanebrush ganks are especially effective on skarner. you can circumvent wards by taking different routes. if you want to gank top and you're blue team and know that their river is warded but tribrush isn't, do this: head through their wraith entrance, skirt the outside of their red, and go through tribrush to get behind them
additionally, you can just tell your teammate to initiate and make the opponent commit, ESPECIALLY if the opponent will win the exchange. the second the opponent has used his CC on your teammate, jump in and garen-teed kill
the first time you gank post-6, you'll flash ult and definitely get the pull because they won't expect it. every time after, as soon as you zoom into the lane with W they will flash away so you can't kill them. gank successful. don't even try anything else.
Definitely calling you out on this. If you're still clearing jungle after you pick up rageblade, hell whenever you're clearing jungle, you're spamming Q at a much faster rate than once every 5 seconds. Your autoattacks alone cause Q to come off cooldown faster, and then with rageblade, even faster. Q every 2-3 seconds is more the reality. Assuming you can spam Q twice every 5 seconds (which you can, especially with rageblade) then you're losing 30mp/5 while gaining only 10-11. 600 - 20per5 = 2 and a half minutes of Q spam to be out of mana. And that's if you NEVER use E for sustain or W for speed boost/attack speed. How can you jungle successfully pre-rageblade if not using W or E at all? And f you're telling me to slow down to conserve mana, then Skarner's farm slows down, and he becomes shittier.
rageblade's AS combined with wriggles procs and lifesteal means that you don't need to touch W or E in the jungle once you have both. Q is optional but since it's free you might as well use it.
i thought you were talking about keeping up stacks in between ganks, which is why i was showing it was easily done
A level 6 rush is usually Small Camps -> Blue -> Small Camps -> Red -> Small Camps. The Small Camps -> Full Clear is the typical level 5 route.
I'm of a similar opinion to ManBearPig regarding Skarner's pre-6 ganks. They may not be Rammus level, but they're strong enough to force a Flash at the very least. Skarner's post-6 ganks are absurdly strong. At the very least any situation where a ward halts Skarner gank most other junglers would also be thwarted.
Skarner's strength is that he is simultaneously a strong control jungler on par with Phoenix Udyr, and a strong ganking jungler on par with Tiger Udyr (better post-6). I don't find items to be an issue unless I royally screw up and go 0-3 or worse. Even then Skarner remains a perfectly good carry protector with his spammable AoE slow, ult, and 1v1 strength.
Nah gtr I was talking about running OOM, especially without the mana you get from Sheen. Without blue buff Skarner rips through his mana pool in the jungle and in teamfights. If you want to clear quickly you're spamming Q. Pre rageblade I would assume W has to be used or you're taking too much damage/attacking too slowly or E for sustain. If not Skarner ends up too low, or his jungle is much slower. Post rageblade I don't exactly see what's different; Skarner still has to use Q to clear jungle quickly. The sustain issue isn't quite there once you have Wriggle's but again if you want to clear fast and get to gankin', QQQQQQ = no mana.
Tribrush ganks are nice and all, but what I said about enemy hugging your turret still stands. On your own you don't do nearly enough damage to kill anyone or even damage them much if they're in the middle of their lane. As far as ally help, I had one game with an Irelia where we successfully ganked Renekton twice. That's it. No other game out of the 6-7 I have played had an ally who assisted me with ganks, so nothing was accomplished. That's why I'm so frustrated with his ganking. Without a proper cc initiation (ie Irelia's stun/slow in this case) A pre-6 Skarner gank is absolutely useless.
In any case, I think my points have been belaboured enough here; SOMEBODY here is going to play a game with me later to outline what's going wrong then. I'm so sick of hearing how strong he is then failing. (Lookin' at you, gtr)
yeah i'll play with you or better yet i'll just stream a jungle skarner game and give my thoughts as i go i'm in the process of moving right now and i probably won't have internet again until wednesday but just hit me up in-client next time we're both on and i'll show you
On November 01 2011 00:41 freezaa wrote: Personally i run MS quints on him, AS reds, armor yellow, mr blue. Go for movespeed and flash in utility, rest in def, one point in smite. Movespeed really helps with ganks, counterjungling, escaping, initiating. Just do a full clear then gank when there is a chance to gank. If not just b and start clearing/counterjungling, you are a control not a ganking jungler. I go for Wriggels and Boots, everything after boots is purely situational, i really like shurelias on him because it helps a lot with initiations. Sheen is core, you dont need triforce too early. Viable items are fh, we, shurelias, triforce, fon, atmogs, gunblade, ga, aegis.
Tried this exact runeset once and I ended up very low in the jungle after a clear (had to hold off a bit and heal as well)---> much slower jungle. Better for ganking and CDR, but overall inferior to adding a little armor pen I think. Can't seem to find the right mix of AS/ArP/MS to be useful.
[...]
With a good leash you go out with a good amount of HP. But the Speed with ArPen will surely be faster, cant try that though. I dont have ArPen Quints yet
gtr I wouldn't mind watching you play the game as jungle skarner with your thoughts on it too. I'm by no means a stellar player (~1360 right now) but I do specialize in junglers and I love Skarner so getting some tips / insight from the higher level players would be fantastic.
So assuming rageblade is going to be your first core offensive item, what do you build the starting cloth into? Tabi doesn't seem great on him - aegis? Well-rounded defense is always nice, right?
well my jungle path with skarner is : wolf -> blue -> their wraith -> my wraith --> red -> their wolf -> golem -> wolf --> etc
The best thing pre level 6 is not to gank the ennemy lane but to counter jungle and gank the jungler, killed so many fiddlesticks, amumu, rammus at wraith or wolfs Rarely u will be able to gank pre level 6 but if you see one of your opponent is an idiot go for it and make them use flash but dont try too much, better to reach level 6 faster than to pull unsuccesful ganks
On November 05 2011 02:01 sylverfyre wrote: So assuming rageblade is going to be your first core offensive item, what do you build the starting cloth into? Tabi doesn't seem great on him - aegis? Well-rounded defense is always nice, right?
It's usually Wriggles -> GRB -> Responsive Tanking Items (i.e. build to counter their team). I personally like following a warwick-style SV/FH for the CDR but I wouldn't say that's ideal for every game.
On November 05 2011 02:23 trollbone wrote: well my jungle path with skarner is : wolf -> blue -> their wraith -> my wraith --> red -> their wolf -> golem -> wolf --> etc
The best thing pre level 6 is not to gank the ennemy lane but to counter jungle and gank the jungler, killed so many fiddlesticks, amumu, rammus at wraith or wolfs Rarely u will be able to gank pre level 6 but if you see one of your opponent is an idiot go for it and make them use flash but dont try too much, better to reach level 6 faster than to pull unsuccesful ganks
And take MS quint absolutly, so good on him
How low do you get doing this? How often does their mid come to try and help their jungler?
ok finally got internet at my new apartment i work from 5pm-11pm tonight and afterwards probably watching a rented movie with my g/f but i don't work til afternoon tomorrow so i'll probably be streaming some skarner games either late tonight or earlyish tomorrow
i'll bump my stream thread when i do so if you want to watch, check there. also if you miss the games and want to see me play again, just post in there and i'll stream next time i play him
On November 05 2011 06:56 gtrsrs wrote: ok finally got internet at my new apartment i work from 5pm-11pm tonight and afterwards probably watching a rented movie with my g/f but i don't work til afternoon tomorrow so i'll probably be streaming some skarner games either late tonight or earlyish tomorrow
i'll bump my stream thread when i do so if you want to watch, check there. also if you miss the games and want to see me play again, just post in there and i'll stream next time i play him
Fuck you, don't.
I just realized that he stomps like a boss and am raping with him.
Don't let him become fotm. thx, bro. <3
Also he's slightly slower than brodyr, but not by much. =P
His ability to 1n1 shit is just insane as fuck. THAT Q BUFF OMGOMGOMG!!!
So... is there any way skarner can beat top lane udyr? It was a farm fest for the first couple of levels but after a while we got bored and tried trading hits and with his wriggles//zeal he came out ahead everytime. Honestly if he decided to play more offensively i think i might have been in trouble but after that i just continued to have a farm fest.
Way to beat top lane udyr is to be more aggressive in the early levels and zone him out right away.. If you start engaging him when hes like level 5 you are not going to win.
Skarner is so strong now that his mana problems are mostly fixed. He can basically do almost anything he wants and still be on top meanwhile almost nobody can fight him 1v1 on even farm and even fewer can actually run from him.
As a note, I've not been building Rageblade on him lately. Jungling:
Wriggles - Mercs - Trinity - Wit's - Defensive item of choice, usually Randuin's or GA. I don't think it's empirically better than TF, in fact I'd feel the procs and health are much better than the AS that Rageblade brings.
On November 07 2011 14:06 Requizen wrote: As a note, I've not been building Rageblade on him lately. Jungling:
Wriggles - Mercs - Trinity - Wit's - Defensive item of choice, usually Randuin's or GA. I don't think it's empirically better than TF, in fact I'd feel the procs and health are much better than the AS that Rageblade brings.
Eh... around which elo does that work for you? Sorry for bringing out "that" card again, but my experience is that Triforce/Wits is such a huge commitment to mostly offensive stuff that it's just not going to happen.
Skarner is way closer to someone like Udyr who has to tank out very early because of his skillset.
With Skarner I usually feel that I can BARELY get away with Wriggles -> Rageblade -> Tank, so I can't imagine getting wriggles, triforce AND wits end without being instaraped in teamfights.
Yeah that's about 5000 more gold than you're realistically gonna make out of the jungle Wits isn't terrible on skarner but you definitely can't get triforce from the jungle
On November 07 2011 14:06 Requizen wrote: As a note, I've not been building Rageblade on him lately. Jungling:
Wriggles - Mercs - Trinity - Wit's - Defensive item of choice, usually Randuin's or GA. I don't think it's empirically better than TF, in fact I'd feel the procs and health are much better than the AS that Rageblade brings.
Eh... around which elo does that work for you? Sorry for bringing out "that" card again, but my experience is that Triforce/Wits is such a huge commitment to mostly offensive stuff that it's just not going to happen.
Skarner is way closer to someone like Udyr who has to tank out very early because of his skillset.
With Skarner I usually feel that I can BARELY get away with Wriggles -> Rageblade -> Tank, so I can't imagine getting wriggles, triforce AND wits end without being instaraped in teamfights.
Honestly, I think it's just best to go wriggles, boots, philo, hog, mercs, shurelias, randuins. Sometimes aegis or some other cheap defensive items in there.
Skarner is never going to be tanky enough if he jungles, the best thing to do with him is to just flash into the enemy team, pop shurelias and ult someone important on the enemy team and drag them into your team with ult.
Also, you don't necessarily need items to do good because Skarner counters all melee range characters and does retarded damage if he can keep auto attacking. At some god awful ELOs, people will land 3 ults on you to try and instagib you, and you just have to pray that your team wins the fight, but most of the time people just try to ignore skarner (which they can do if you don't build damage/don't have ult up).
In short, build aura/debuff items because a skarner attacking in a fight is a skarner not fucking a carry over with ult, and tank items such as fon/fh/warmog aren't really needed to survive
no, you definitely need an AS item in solo queue at least i just think guinsoo is your best cheap option for damage/AS/cdr wit's is acceptable
i really need to be streaming my skarner games just had a game where literally the fight immediately after buying my rageblade and negatron i got a quadra which would have been a penta but zil accidentally got a kill with his bomb T_T
speaking of which, holy catfish zilean + skarner is soooo good
On November 07 2011 17:02 gtrsrs wrote: speaking of which, holy catfish zilean + skarner is soooo good
This is generally just a product of Zilean + pretty much any bruiser being amazing, and Skarner being really strong right now.
On the topic of itemization, I agree you need to be building at least 1 damage item. Your baseline utility off being an ult-bot just isn't compelling enough, especially if people are smart enough to buy QSS--to fully take advantage of Skarner's kit, you have to abuse his good scaling. Rageblade is probably the most compelling choice on the basis of pure cost-effectiveness. Triforce is probably acceptable if you can somehow scrape together the farm for it, but it's unlikely that you'll be able to finish it in one go, as 6k before tank items is suicide unless you're decently farmed. I could see Sheen->situational tanky stuff->later Triforce possibly being OK, but it's still questionable whether it's compelling vs. spending 1k more on Rageblade instead of Sheen.
I'm not a huge fan of Wit's because AD/AP is significantly better than the magic proc because you have abilities scaling off of both. I haven't done the math, but I have a feeling that Rageblade + Negatron is better DPS/gold than Wit's while also offering better survivability.
On November 07 2011 14:06 Requizen wrote: As a note, I've not been building Rageblade on him lately. Jungling:
Wriggles - Mercs - Trinity - Wit's - Defensive item of choice, usually Randuin's or GA. I don't think it's empirically better than TF, in fact I'd feel the procs and health are much better than the AS that Rageblade brings.
A 4k gold item beats a 2k gold item on damage? That's surprising!
Others have already pointed out the issues of building so much damage before survivability from the jungle. The other thing to note is that fully stacked Rageblade (and Skarner should enter ANY fight with full stacks already) is the most cost-effective non-Snowball item in the game--it beats Doran's items, Triforce (even applying generous gold values to the extra passives), and fully stacked RoA/Bloodthirster/Warmog's. The only issue is finding champs that can both fully use all 3 stats and keep it stacked, and Skarner is arguably the best champ for that in the game right now.
yeah rageblade + negatron is my go-to core. if i haven't shut down their AD carry by that point then i drop a chainmail in there before grabbing shurelias, otherwise i finish my FoN or banshee first
the only reason i think wit's is acceptable (while not being a priority) is because if you don't get a kill or assist in the first 10 or so minutes of the game, it's perfectly reasonable to only have enough gold for say wriggles, boots, and 2 null mantles (plus wards pots etc). in that situation where i don't foresee myself being able to get 2200 any time soon, but 1050 isn't TOO farfetched, i might grab the recurve into wit's into aegis for a bunch of cheap options
BUT 90% of the time in that situation i just opt for boots 1 and pickaxe instead of the double defensive item
and i think skarner + zilean is especially scary just because of the synergy of movespeed with skarner's ability to punish someone for being out of position. i definitely rank it up there with the likes of zilean/karma + singed
On November 07 2011 17:36 NeoIllusions wrote: Just watched Saint (with just a Wriggle's Trinity) terror a 3-0 Nasus 1v1 who solo top. I am a believer now.
Edit: QEQW, 3:25 clear. Cloth+5 opening, uses 4 of them for first run.
I'm assuming that's including doing his wolves before blue?
On November 07 2011 17:41 gtrsrs wrote: the only reason i think wit's is acceptable (while not being a priority) is because if you don't get a kill or assist in the first 10 or so minutes of the game, it's perfectly reasonable to only have enough gold for say wriggles, boots, and 2 null mantles (plus wards pots etc). in that situation where i don't foresee myself being able to get 2200 any time soon, but 1050 isn't TOO farfetched, i might grab the recurve into wit's into aegis for a bunch of cheap options
Even in those cases, do you feel that Wit's is a better option than, say, Sheen->later Triforce?
On November 07 2011 17:36 NeoIllusions wrote: Just watched Saint (with just a Wriggle's Trinity) terror a 3-0 Nasus 1v1 who solo top. I am a believer now.
Edit: QEQW, 3:25 clear. Cloth+5 opening, uses 4 of them for first run.
I'm assuming that's including doing his wolves before blue?
Isn't this what the standard opening for mana based Junglers now? Start Wolves, have solo mid do a few hits. Solo mid leashes Blue, Smite for kill.
AoE skilled champs like Skarner, Udyr, Rammus, etc can do the entire Wolf camp. Depending on the amount of assistance, non-AoE champs may sometimes just take the big Wolf and move on to Blue immediately after.
He tried QWQE the previous game and the first run wasn't as good. Just throwing it out there.
On November 07 2011 17:36 NeoIllusions wrote: Just watched Saint (with just a Wriggle's Trinity) terror a 3-0 Nasus 1v1 who solo top. I am a believer now.
Edit: QEQW, 3:25 clear. Cloth+5 opening, uses 4 of them for first run.
I'm assuming that's including doing his wolves before blue?
On November 07 2011 17:41 gtrsrs wrote: the only reason i think wit's is acceptable (while not being a priority) is because if you don't get a kill or assist in the first 10 or so minutes of the game, it's perfectly reasonable to only have enough gold for say wriggles, boots, and 2 null mantles (plus wards pots etc). in that situation where i don't foresee myself being able to get 2200 any time soon, but 1050 isn't TOO farfetched, i might grab the recurve into wit's into aegis for a bunch of cheap options
Even in those cases, do you feel that Wit's is a better option than, say, Sheen->later Triforce?
i don't even like triforce on jungle skarner because the most important attribute you get from it is the MS/AS from zeal but if you get zeal first you do 0 damage and take all damage. the sheen proc isn't even good on skarner IMO because he isn't a burster like tiger udyr, but rather a DoT duelist. i just feel like the constant damage from having high AS -> more Q's -> more autos is a lot stronger than higher damage autos in between Q spam
idk i'll give early sheen a try next time and see if i like it
another thing i was legit considering was keeping my razor instead of wriggles' and getting bloodrazer later in the game and forgoing rageblade completely. i think it will lead to the same problem of no real AD/AP to speak of, but the high AS combined with the ability to get tankier faster might make up for it. i dunno it's probably a bad idea but i'll give it a try
Ugh I still run out of mana so quick on this champ but I think I've at least improved in the ganking/counterjungling department. (Note: not running out of mana in the jungle, moreso if I jungle a bit, decide to counterjungle and run into someone, I'll spam all my shit and run out instantly. Also in teamfights. Such horseshit.) Liking gtr's Rageblade 1st build over Triforce. Takes wayyy too fucking long to get it
Well, I don't play Skarner and looking at his kit, I'm most likely never going to. Not going to speak of solo top Skarner since I have no experience there.
But from watching saint, jungle Skarner dominates (while saint is the best NA jungler by far, I'm using himself as a measuring stick. So I'm comparing saint's Skarner vs Shaco, Udyr, Trundle, junglers he's been playing a lot lately). There's no real early gank to speak of unless one of the solo lanes are serverely pushed and you have Red. But he speeds through the jungle like Shyvana does but with sustain.
Your MS/AS build sounds very glass cannon. At least with saint's build, you can get deeps into more DPS/HP. You're right that it's not burst like Tiger Stance but with his insanely low CD Q, Skarner can proc Sheen more than Udyr.
On November 07 2011 17:53 NeoIllusions wrote: Isn't this what the standard opening for mana based Junglers now? Start Wolves, have solo mid do a few hits. Solo mid leashes Blue, Smite for kill.
AoE skilled champs like Skarner, Udyr, Rammus, etc can do the entire Wolf camp. Depending on the amount of assistance, non-AoE champs may sometimes just take the big Wolf and move on to Blue immediately after.
He tried QWQE the previous game and the first run wasn't as good. Just throwing it out there.
There was a discussion in the thread earlier, as Guitar likes to leave the wolves up, since E healing is quite significant on Wolves. I personally prefer clearing the Wolves first, as the extra 10 seconds gives you some options, but I can see why Guitar prefers leaving them up.
On November 07 2011 17:53 NeoIllusions wrote: Isn't this what the standard opening for mana based Junglers now? Start Wolves, have solo mid do a few hits. Solo mid leashes Blue, Smite for kill.
AoE skilled champs like Skarner, Udyr, Rammus, etc can do the entire Wolf camp. Depending on the amount of assistance, non-AoE champs may sometimes just take the big Wolf and move on to Blue immediately after.
He tried QWQE the previous game and the first run wasn't as good. Just throwing it out there.
There was a discussion in the thread earlier, as Guitar likes to leave the wolves up, since E healing is quite significant on Wolves. I personally prefer clearing the Wolves first, as the extra 10 seconds gives you some options, but I can see why Guitar prefers leaving them up.
Cosign on E's healing on wolves - starting wolves is kinda dependent on who the enemy jungler is and if you want to make a beeline for them/their wraiths in my (v.limited) experience.
Depending on the game, I might experiment w/rushing Tabi from cloth armor to get boots2 quickly. Anyone mucked around with a quick Stinger into tank items if you're a bit behind?
On November 07 2011 18:07 NeoIllusions wrote: Well, I don't play Skarner and looking at his kit, I'm most likely never going to. Not going to speak of solo top Skarner since I have no experience there.
But from watching saint, jungle Skarner dominates (while saint is the best NA jungler by far, I'm using himself as a measuring stick. So I'm comparing saint's Skarner vs Shaco, Udyr, Trundle, junglers he's been playing a lot lately). There's no real early gank to speak of unless one of the solo lanes are serverely pushed and you have Red. But he speeds through the jungle like Shyvana does but with sustain.
Your MS/AS build sounds very glass cannon. At least with saint's build, you can get deeps into more DPS/HP. You're right that it's not burst like Tiger Stance but with his insanely low CD Q, Skarner can proc Sheen more than Udyr.
What was Saint using, I haven't been watching?
And yeah, I realize that Triforce is really bloody expensive, but imo, all the pieces are great on him. With his spammy playstyle that encourages autos, you get a Sheen proc basically every time it's up, Phage supplements your already great slow, and the MS/AS from Zeal just synergizes with him so well.
That said, I could see why it's not the best first rush item. In my low ELO (and mostly in normals too), it's not uncommon to get 4+ kills/assists from ganks in the first 10 minutes or so, and therefore I usually have enough gold to toss at an expensive item. Rageblade is probably the superior item given a "standard" amount of gold.
The reason I like to get Wit's is the fact that, for a good MR item, it's relatively cheap for early/mid game, and the AS is nice on him. I'll try building into different items today, probably. The thing is, for high magic damage teams, the only real MR items I'd consider getting are GA or FoN, neither of which are cheap. Banshee's is probably the other one, but again, pretty expensive and with his new mana efficiency, the mana is pretty well wasted on him.
I'm not a huge fan of Wit's because AD/AP is significantly better than the magic proc because you have abilities scaling off of both. I haven't done the math, but I have a feeling that Rageblade + Negatron is better DPS/gold than Wit's while also offering better survivability.
My brother made a Skarner spreadsheet because he loves spreadsheets. According to the sheet he made at level 18 a fully stacked GRB is 160 DPS, while Wit's End is 151 DPS (with 100 armor/MR on your target). Since GRB is 2235g and Wit's End is 2000g, GRB + Negatron is a full 975g more than Wit's End. I'd guess adding a pickaxe would put Wit's End ahead of GRB + Negatron in terms of damage on a single target.
I can put the spreadsheet in my dropbox later if you're interested (.ods format, if you're using excel it's going to convert all the formulas to flat values). There's a lot of clutter involved but I'm sure you'd be able to sort through it and figure out what's he's doing.
On November 07 2011 17:41 gtrsrs wrote: yeah rageblade + negatron is my go-to core. if i haven't shut down their AD carry by that point then i drop a chainmail in there before grabbing shurelias, otherwise i finish my FoN or banshee first
the only reason i think wit's is acceptable (while not being a priority) is because if you don't get a kill or assist in the first 10 or so minutes of the game, it's perfectly reasonable to only have enough gold for say wriggles, boots, and 2 null mantles (plus wards pots etc). in that situation where i don't foresee myself being able to get 2200 any time soon, but 1050 isn't TOO farfetched, i might grab the recurve into wit's into aegis for a bunch of cheap options
BUT 90% of the time in that situation i just opt for boots 1 and pickaxe instead of the double defensive item
and i think skarner + zilean is especially scary just because of the synergy of movespeed with skarner's ability to punish someone for being out of position. i definitely rank it up there with the likes of zilean/karma + singed
Thoughts on building towards spirit visage over negatron? NMM/Health Crystal is only marginally more expensive then the negatron cloak but you do benefit fairly significantly from the CDR and improved healing (not to mention the health makes you beefier against their AD sooner as well, though I imagine this isn't lucrative enough to be a selling point) on the completed visage but you're trading that for the movespeed and passive regeneration of FoN (at about half the price though).
On November 07 2011 17:41 gtrsrs wrote: yeah rageblade + negatron is my go-to core. if i haven't shut down their AD carry by that point then i drop a chainmail in there before grabbing shurelias, otherwise i finish my FoN or banshee first
the only reason i think wit's is acceptable (while not being a priority) is because if you don't get a kill or assist in the first 10 or so minutes of the game, it's perfectly reasonable to only have enough gold for say wriggles, boots, and 2 null mantles (plus wards pots etc). in that situation where i don't foresee myself being able to get 2200 any time soon, but 1050 isn't TOO farfetched, i might grab the recurve into wit's into aegis for a bunch of cheap options
BUT 90% of the time in that situation i just opt for boots 1 and pickaxe instead of the double defensive item
and i think skarner + zilean is especially scary just because of the synergy of movespeed with skarner's ability to punish someone for being out of position. i definitely rank it up there with the likes of zilean/karma + singed
Thoughts on building towards spirit visage over negatron? NMM/Health Crystal is only marginally more expensive then the negatron cloak but you do benefit fairly significantly from the CDR and improved healing (not to mention the health makes you beefier against their AD sooner as well, though I imagine this isn't lucrative enough to be a selling point) on the completed visage but you're trading that for the movespeed and passive regeneration of FoN (at about half the price though).
I've done Visage a couple times now, it's not terrible. E's heal becomes rather noticeable, but not overwhelming. Dunno if it's a "go to" item, but a decent choice.
On November 05 2011 02:23 trollbone wrote: well my jungle path with skarner is : wolf -> blue -> their wraith -> my wraith --> red -> their wolf -> golem -> wolf --> etc
The best thing pre level 6 is not to gank the ennemy lane but to counter jungle and gank the jungler, killed so many fiddlesticks, amumu, rammus at wraith or wolfs Rarely u will be able to gank pre level 6 but if you see one of your opponent is an idiot go for it and make them use flash but dont try too much, better to reach level 6 faster than to pull unsuccesful ganks
And take MS quint absolutly, so good on him
How low do you get doing this? How often does their mid come to try and help their jungler?
Normally u get their wraith before they are here if they didnt start at wolf or golems after that u can sit in the brush waiting for them to come if the mid doesnt react fast enough u get first kill easily. Well i invade a lot
i've been running armor pen marks, speed quints, armor seals, MR glyphs with 9/21/0 masteries on him lately with the following build: boots 3 pots, sheen, swiftness, phage -> trinity, vampiric, guinsoo, starks/bloodthirster, and then sunfire/banshee. It's a little more squishy in lane but the damage output really surprises me. With ghost and W, i can easily fish somebody out from their tower 1 to the middle of the lane or so, so initiations for team fights have been very nice.
I've tinked around with the wits end build, and the other more tanky builds but i find my damage output to be severely lacking in those scenarios.
Do you have guys have any ideas of optimizing the build i've been tinkering with?
after buying and playing skarner a bit i've settled on 1/14/16 masteries, taking nimbleness, sos, and the necessary utiltiy tree masteries and quickness. i use aspd reds, dodge/armor yellows, mr per lvl blues, and mspd quints. cloth+5 jungle start. i build wriggles->sheen then situational. if i need more damage i get a rageblade, otherwise frozen heart and fon for defensive. getting triforce eventually.
skarner has some really deceptively high dps. those small buffs to his Q give him sooooo much damage. with fon, mspd quints/masteries and W you are fking fast as hell and can punish/dive carries so well.
regarding triforce, i really really like it on skarner since he has one of the highest base AD in the game and it synergizes really really well with his kit
On November 08 2011 18:16 Ryuu314 wrote: after buying and playing skarner a bit i've settled on 1/14/16 masteries, taking nimbleness, sos, and the necessary utiltiy tree masteries and quickness. i use aspd reds, dodge/armor yellows, mr per lvl blues, and mspd quints. cloth+5 jungle start. i build wriggles->sheen then situational. if i need more damage i get a rageblade, otherwise frozen heart and fon for defensive. getting triforce eventually.
skarner has some really deceptively high dps. those small buffs to his Q give him sooooo much damage. with fon, mspd quints/masteries and W you are fking fast as hell and can punish/dive carries so well.
regarding triforce, i really really like it on skarner since he has one of the highest base AD in the game and it synergizes really really well with his kit
Wow, I'm a big idiot....I think all my issues wiwth Skarner would be solved if I just build like this and save Triforce for later. Sheen resolves a bunch of mana issues and adds needed damage, then if needed I can go tanky real early, or if I feel I don't need it, Rageblade.
On November 08 2011 18:16 Ryuu314 wrote: after buying and playing skarner a bit i've settled on 1/14/16 masteries, taking nimbleness, sos, and the necessary utiltiy tree masteries and quickness. i use aspd reds, dodge/armor yellows, mr per lvl blues, and mspd quints. cloth+5 jungle start. i build wriggles->sheen then situational. if i need more damage i get a rageblade, otherwise frozen heart and fon for defensive. getting triforce eventually.
skarner has some really deceptively high dps. those small buffs to his Q give him sooooo much damage. with fon, mspd quints/masteries and W you are fking fast as hell and can punish/dive carries so well.
regarding triforce, i really really like it on skarner since he has one of the highest base AD in the game and it synergizes really really well with his kit
Wow, I'm a big idiot....I think all my issues wiwth Skarner would be solved if I just build like this and save Triforce for later. Sheen resolves a bunch of mana issues and adds needed damage, then if needed I can go tanky real early, or if I feel I don't need it, Rageblade.
Even after playing some matches with it, I still don't like Rageblade. Wriggles/Boots first always, then Sheen, then either straight to Trinity or get defensive items and then go to TF. I'm fairly certain Cloth 5 - Boots - Wriggles - Mercs - Sheen is a very solid core: Life Steal, MR, Armor, AD/AP/Proc; and he's one of the few champions that wants every one of those stats.
Personally, I like the TF rush for a more aggressive play. Getting Phage after Sheen gives you a bit more toughness, and the slow proc helps you line up Q's slow.
just did a triforce open out of the jungle it was kind of deceptive, i was 1-0-1 after my first run so i got the sheen pretty early but even going 3-0-2 pre-triforce i didn't actually have enough to buy it until 27 minutes which is IMO pretty late. and that's with a GOOD game and delaying tank until after. i did notice an increase in damage per hit with sheen but the hits came sooo much less frequently that i don't know if it was an actual dps increase. need to play a game where i don't get freebie money early and try it in a normal/losing situation to get a full read but i do remember explicitly thinking when i had (wriggles, sheen, boots1, and 2300 gold), "boy i should just buy rageblade now instead of mercs + zeal."
also for some reason i had never actually tried ambushing in the wraith brush until this game and holy shit it was so strong. wolves -> my blue -> their wraiths -> camp wraith brush. olaf ran in at 350 HP, hit a nid trap, hit a skarner, and dropped instantly. 100% blown flash (or in the case of this ghost olaf, first blood). mid made the mistake of coming to help and i blew his flash before he got away with 100 life too. gonna try that more often. i might even consider a longsword open to help facilitate that kill more
On November 08 2011 18:16 Ryuu314 wrote: after buying and playing skarner a bit i've settled on 1/14/16 masteries, taking nimbleness, sos, and the necessary utiltiy tree masteries and quickness. i use aspd reds, dodge/armor yellows, mr per lvl blues, and mspd quints. cloth+5 jungle start. i build wriggles->sheen then situational. if i need more damage i get a rageblade, otherwise frozen heart and fon for defensive. getting triforce eventually.
skarner has some really deceptively high dps. those small buffs to his Q give him sooooo much damage. with fon, mspd quints/masteries and W you are fking fast as hell and can punish/dive carries so well.
regarding triforce, i really really like it on skarner since he has one of the highest base AD in the game and it synergizes really really well with his kit
Wow, I'm a big idiot....I think all my issues wiwth Skarner would be solved if I just build like this and save Triforce for later. Sheen resolves a bunch of mana issues and adds needed damage, then if needed I can go tanky real early, or if I feel I don't need it, Rageblade.
Even after playing some matches with it, I still don't like Rageblade. Wriggles/Boots first always, then Sheen, then either straight to Trinity or get defensive items and then go to TF. I'm fairly certain Cloth 5 - Boots - Wriggles - Mercs - Sheen is a very solid core: Life Steal, MR, Armor, AD/AP/Proc; and he's one of the few champions that wants every one of those stats.
Personally, I like the TF rush for a more aggressive play. Getting Phage after Sheen gives you a bit more toughness, and the slow proc helps you line up Q's slow.
In theory this works; I find rushing Triforce on junglers to be problematic, however, since the sheer amount of farm required to get that 4k gold is going to take you a long damn time. Skarner farms decently, which is nice, but he's still way too squishy for way too long even with the Phage. The only other champion I rush triforce on out of jungle (and even then I rarely do it anymore) is Trundle, because Trundle's Q spam and chasing ability is > Skarner's, not to mention his 1v1 is better as the game progresses (with Ult + Q debuffs + cc reduction).
On November 08 2011 18:16 Ryuu314 wrote: after buying and playing skarner a bit i've settled on 1/14/16 masteries, taking nimbleness, sos, and the necessary utiltiy tree masteries and quickness. i use aspd reds, dodge/armor yellows, mr per lvl blues, and mspd quints. cloth+5 jungle start. i build wriggles->sheen then situational. if i need more damage i get a rageblade, otherwise frozen heart and fon for defensive. getting triforce eventually.
skarner has some really deceptively high dps. those small buffs to his Q give him sooooo much damage. with fon, mspd quints/masteries and W you are fking fast as hell and can punish/dive carries so well.
regarding triforce, i really really like it on skarner since he has one of the highest base AD in the game and it synergizes really really well with his kit
Wow, I'm a big idiot....I think all my issues wiwth Skarner would be solved if I just build like this and save Triforce for later. Sheen resolves a bunch of mana issues and adds needed damage, then if needed I can go tanky real early, or if I feel I don't need it, Rageblade.
Even after playing some matches with it, I still don't like Rageblade. Wriggles/Boots first always, then Sheen, then either straight to Trinity or get defensive items and then go to TF. I'm fairly certain Cloth 5 - Boots - Wriggles - Mercs - Sheen is a very solid core: Life Steal, MR, Armor, AD/AP/Proc; and he's one of the few champions that wants every one of those stats.
Personally, I like the TF rush for a more aggressive play. Getting Phage after Sheen gives you a bit more toughness, and the slow proc helps you line up Q's slow.
In theory this works; I find rushing Triforce on junglers to be problematic, however, since the sheer amount of farm required to get that 4k gold is going to take you a long damn time. Skarner farms decently, which is nice, but he's still way too squishy for way too long even with the Phage. The only other champion I rush triforce on out of jungle (and even then I rarely do it anymore) is Trundle, because Trundle's Q spam and chasing ability is > Skarner's, not to mention his 1v1 is better as the game progresses (with Ult + Q debuffs + cc reduction).
I agree with this mostly. His jungle is honestly one of the fastest out there right now (Q spam so good), even at my terribad level and with no good runes I full clear at ~3:40. However, you really underestimate his 1v1 potential, even in the late game. I feel confident 1v1ing every melee champion and several ranged once I have a handful of items. I also agree that Triforce is pretty prohibitive in price, but I feel like I do crap for damage without the Sheen, so I would definitely consider that core.
just did a triforce open out of the jungle it was kind of deceptive, i was 1-0-1 after my first run so i got the sheen pretty early but even going 3-0-2 pre-triforce i didn't actually have enough to buy it until 27 minutes which is IMO pretty late. and that's with a GOOD game and delaying tank until after. i did notice an increase in damage per hit with sheen but the hits came sooo much less frequently that i don't know if it was an actual dps increase. need to play a game where i don't get freebie money early and try it in a normal/losing situation to get a full read but i do remember explicitly thinking when i had (wriggles, sheen, boots1, and 2300 gold), "boy i should just buy rageblade now instead of mercs + zeal."
Well, yeah, I don't know if I'd recommend it if you're behind, but like I said before, I generally get 2+ good ganks early on and can afford it.
I still don't see the huge draw of Rageblade. With runes and W up, I don't really feel the need for the massive AS boost, and the flat numbers aren't anything to write home about, imo. I suppose it's mostly to power his passive, but eh.
Rageblade increases your total damage by a pretty nice amount given how well you scale with attack speed.
But yea, I don't like building straight Triforce on like...anyone but Corki/Ez. The build up time just takes too long and you're too squishy while you build it up. Just grabbing sheen gives you a nice damage boost and you can supplement that with chain vest/negatron and then slowly farm it up. As skarner you already have pretty sick damage without much damage items anyways so I don't really see the need to rush those big ticket dps items anyways.
Watching Dan Dinh play Skarner right now. Soloing 3 people at once, killing 2, getting away. Fights 1v2, wins. Whole enemy team (including fake Neo) complains about how imbalanced he is. Yet for the life of me I can't understand what Dan does differently from me. (In fights anyway. I know he's Dan Dinh and is shit tons better than I'll ever be, and I guess he was fed early, but I have NEVER been able to do that much damage with Skarner and not be squishy with the same friggin build.) Hmmm.... on second though I DID just notice Dan does not spam Q to clear minion waves....I'm assuming to save mana. He still has the same mana issues as I do when playing though even while saving up.
On November 09 2011 03:02 Requizen wrote: I still don't see the huge draw of Rageblade. With runes and W up, I don't really feel the need for the massive AS boost, and the flat numbers aren't anything to write home about, imo. I suppose it's mostly to power his passive, but eh.
How are they not anything to write home about?
8-stack Rageblade is the most gold-efficient non-snowball item in the game for pure stats, period. I don't see how that's "not anything to write home about" on a champ that uses all 3 stats effectively, and can keep stacks up stupidly easily (the only champ in the game that has an easier time keeping stacks is Nidalee).
On November 10 2011 17:29 WaveofShadow wrote: Watching Dan Dinh play Skarner right now. Soloing 3 people at once, killing 2, getting away. Fights 1v2, wins. Whole enemy team (including fake Neo) complains about how imbalanced he is. Yet for the life of me I can't understand what Dan does differently from me. (In fights anyway. I know he's Dan Dinh and is shit tons better than I'll ever be, and I guess he was fed early, but I have NEVER been able to do that much damage with Skarner and not be squishy with the same friggin build.) Hmmm.... on second though I DID just notice Dan does not spam Q to clear minion waves....I'm assuming to save mana. He still has the same mana issues as I do when playing though even while saving up.
The mana costs on W and E aren't trivial, and if you're able to auto-attack people you're going to be spamming them a lot. You're going to run out of mana in a protracted fight almost no matter what, but as long as you can spam W and E freely Skarner can be extremely hard to kill.
Unless you have blue buff. Blue buff Skarner is scary.
same reason people have mana issues on corki, ezreal, miss fortune, rammus, ashe, etc, they don't manage their mana properly and end up buying mune or some shit to make up for it, or they just stop playing the champion because it isn't fun to play without mana
On November 09 2011 03:02 Requizen wrote: I still don't see the huge draw of Rageblade. With runes and W up, I don't really feel the need for the massive AS boost, and the flat numbers aren't anything to write home about, imo. I suppose it's mostly to power his passive, but eh.
How are they not anything to write home about?
8-stack Rageblade is the most gold-efficient non-snowball item in the game for pure stats, period. I don't see how that's "not anything to write home about" on a champ that uses all 3 stats effectively, and can keep stacks up stupidly easily (the only champ in the game that has an easier time keeping stacks is Nidalee).
Maybe it's just one of those things that I don't notice, I guess. With TF (or just Sheen), the damage output proc is considerably noticable, since you have it up for pretty much every other attack. With Skarner's base damage being one of the highest in the game (highest, tied with Cho), and his kit encouraging spamming abilities on cooldown, that proc is a huge addition of damage, adding 54.1 (+4.2/level to a max of 130) each proc, while Guinsoo's adds 35 on each attack.
The passive on Rageblade is great, especially with his passive, but when you can get AS from TF without having to build it up, I think it's better to build towards. And the 45 AP from Rageblade only adds 27 health to the shield and 13 heal to Fracture. I think it's a nice item, but what you can get from other items, while maybe not as cost-efficient, I think skipping it is better.
Maybe it's just a false correlation on my part, but whenever I do go for Rageblade (failed ganks, need a cheaper damage item, etc), I don't feel nearly as strong defensive or offensive wise as I would with Trinity or even it's pieces and a defensive item or two.
Edit:
i have literally never run out of mana or even gotten close when playing skarner i'm so confused how this is a problem for you guys :c
I only really have mana issues when I stay out for 2+ clears and a gank without blue, and spam W and E. If you get denied blue, or lose it in a gank where you die, low level clears can be a bit mana intensive, since W and E actually have noticable mana costs, especially early on if you're not careful. At that point, it's usually better to get as far as you can just spamming Q and nothing else and/or going back to base more often.
On November 09 2011 03:02 Requizen wrote: I still don't see the huge draw of Rageblade. With runes and W up, I don't really feel the need for the massive AS boost, and the flat numbers aren't anything to write home about, imo. I suppose it's mostly to power his passive, but eh.
How are they not anything to write home about?
8-stack Rageblade is the most gold-efficient non-snowball item in the game for pure stats, period. I don't see how that's "not anything to write home about" on a champ that uses all 3 stats effectively, and can keep stacks up stupidly easily (the only champ in the game that has an easier time keeping stacks is Nidalee).
Maybe it's just one of those things that I don't notice, I guess. With TF (or just Sheen), the damage output proc is considerably noticable, since you have it up for pretty much every other attack. With Skarner's base damage being one of the highest in the game (highest, tied with Cho), and his kit encouraging spamming abilities on cooldown, that proc is a huge addition of damage, adding 54.1 (+4.2/level to a max of 130) each proc, while Guinsoo's adds 35 on each attack.
The passive on Rageblade is great, especially with his passive, but when you can get AS from TF without having to build it up, I think it's better to build towards. And the 45 AP from Rageblade only adds 27 health to the shield and 13 heal to Fracture. I think it's a nice item, but what you can get from other items, while maybe not as cost-efficient, I think skipping it is better.
Maybe it's just a false correlation on my part, but whenever I do go for Rageblade (failed ganks, need a cheaper damage item, etc), I don't feel nearly as strong defensive or offensive wise as I would with Trinity or even it's pieces and a defensive item or two.
i have literally never run out of mana or even gotten close when playing skarner i'm so confused how this is a problem for you guys :c
I only really have mana issues when I stay out for 2+ clears and a gank without blue, and spam W and E. If you get denied blue, or lose it in a gank where you die, low level clears can be a bit mana intensive, since W and E actually have noticable mana costs, especially early on if you're not careful. At that point, it's usually better to get as far as you can just spamming Q and nothing else and/or going back to base more often.
You're neglecting the extra damage GRB gives on your Qs, which is not just single target but hits everyone around you. At the levels you're buying Sheen / GRB you are getting more damage off the GRB and it frees up ~2k gold to put towards defensive items that keep you alive longer to do more damage then Triforce does which is huge IMO.
On November 09 2011 03:02 Requizen wrote: I still don't see the huge draw of Rageblade. With runes and W up, I don't really feel the need for the massive AS boost, and the flat numbers aren't anything to write home about, imo. I suppose it's mostly to power his passive, but eh.
How are they not anything to write home about?
8-stack Rageblade is the most gold-efficient non-snowball item in the game for pure stats, period. I don't see how that's "not anything to write home about" on a champ that uses all 3 stats effectively, and can keep stacks up stupidly easily (the only champ in the game that has an easier time keeping stacks is Nidalee).
Maybe it's just one of those things that I don't notice, I guess. With TF (or just Sheen), the damage output proc is considerably noticable, since you have it up for pretty much every other attack. With Skarner's base damage being one of the highest in the game (highest, tied with Cho), and his kit encouraging spamming abilities on cooldown, that proc is a huge addition of damage, adding 54.1 (+4.2/level to a max of 130) each proc, while Guinsoo's adds 35 on each attack.
The passive on Rageblade is great, especially with his passive, but when you can get AS from TF without having to build it up, I think it's better to build towards. And the 45 AP from Rageblade only adds 27 health to the shield and 13 heal to Fracture. I think it's a nice item, but what you can get from other items, while maybe not as cost-efficient, I think skipping it is better.
Maybe it's just a false correlation on my part, but whenever I do go for Rageblade (failed ganks, need a cheaper damage item, etc), I don't feel nearly as strong defensive or offensive wise as I would with Trinity or even it's pieces and a defensive item or two.
Edit:
i have literally never run out of mana or even gotten close when playing skarner i'm so confused how this is a problem for you guys :c
I only really have mana issues when I stay out for 2+ clears and a gank without blue, and spam W and E. If you get denied blue, or lose it in a gank where you die, low level clears can be a bit mana intensive, since W and E actually have noticable mana costs, especially early on if you're not careful. At that point, it's usually better to get as far as you can just spamming Q and nothing else and/or going back to base more often.
You're neglecting the extra damage GRB gives on your Qs, which is not just single target but hits everyone around you. At the levels you're buying Sheen / GRB you are getting more damage off the GRB and it frees up ~2k gold to put towards defensive items that keep you alive longer to do more damage then Triforce does which is huge IMO.
Perhaps, but here's my line of reasoning: That's an extra 46 damage on Q. Not bad for an AoE spell. However, for a first item we're talking pretty early in the game, which is when you're going to be ganking, not really teamfighting. You want to get that single target down fast, before they escape, for which Sheen is better. Even ganking bot lane, where there's going to be more than one person, you'll rarely hit both and even if you do, 46 damage on the secondary target isn't going to be a huge difference considering the lane mates will be mostly ignoring them until the primary target is killed. And in mid and top lane ganks, AoE damage is mostly wasted except on creeps.
That said, I understand your reasoning, and maybe I'm just not noticing the impact it has.
you save like 500 from buying defensive items with sheen+GRB and I'd argue the 300 health on triforce is compareable to the extra AP on shield from GRB, if not better.
GRB adds like 65 damage or so to your Q but I'd be suprised if wits end gave you much less damage than GRB + great MR and no reliance on stacking it up. (2 hits+q is about the combo with some CDR from say blue buff, so like 2 hits with wits end vs 2 hits with GRB AD + 65 extra damage, the damage from ultimate and E is in there though, so I'm not sure, has to be factored in with the extra AS from wits and the fact that wits doesn't need to be stacked for damage)
On November 11 2011 02:53 Slayer91 wrote: you save like 500 from buying defensive items with sheen+GRB and I'd argue the 300 health on triforce is compareable to the extra AP on shield from GRB, if not better.
GRB adds like 65 damage or so to your Q but I'd be suprised if wits end gave you much less damage than GRB + great MR and no reliance on stacking it up. (2 hits+q is about the combo with some CDR from say blue buff, so like 2 hits with wits end vs 2 hits with GRB AD + 65 extra damage, the damage from ultimate and E is in there though, so I'm not sure, has to be factored in with the extra AS from wits and the fact that wits doesn't need to be stacked for damage)
I do like the Triforce/Wits route unless I need a lot of armor, in which case I usually go for Randuin's or, in some cases, GA or Frozen Heart (very nice vs AA champs). It's brought me a lot of success so far.
On October 22 2011 20:50 UniversalSnip wrote: I've been starting cloth and just buying ninja tabi on my first back, crazy ganks with level 2 boots and red a few minutes into the game.
Man, this is ridiculously fun, especially with Nimbleness procs for extra zooming; while delaying yr razor hurts yr jungle speed a bit if yr ganks don't work out, the dodge gives yr shield a bit more uptime in the jungle for the AS/MS buff.
Really? You got everything else grammatically correct and spelt right, but you can't type your?
Anyway, I'm not a huge Tabi fan. It's great if the enemy team is mostly AD, but the early tenacity from Merc's helps ganks a lot (can't CC you and run), and you're getting armor from Wriggle's as it is. Situational, but not my go-to boots.
On November 12 2011 06:12 Requizen wrote: Really? You got everything else grammatically correct and spelt right, but you can't type your?
Anyway, I'm not a huge Tabi fan. It's great if the enemy team is mostly AD, but the early tenacity from Merc's helps ganks a lot (can't CC you and run), and you're getting armor from Wriggle's as it is. Situational, but not my go-to boots.
Yr = stylistic tic from being an old-person Sonic Youth fan from alt.music.alternative days.
Tabi were fun mainly from getting picked up a lot earlier than Mercs (after a first, full clear) - nobody really expects boots2+Nimbleness+red buff levels of speed five minutes or so in - but with the removal of Nimbleness from the revamped masteries, it's much of a muchness now.
The most hilarious thing about Skarner's ultimate has got to be how there's a split-second where people can still cast once you start it. Getting pulled through Flash/Janna ulti/etc. has got to be the most rage-inducing thing ever.
On November 15 2011 13:00 TheYango wrote: The most hilarious thing about Skarner's ultimate has got to be how there's a split-second where people can still cast once you start it. Getting pulled through Flash/Janna ulti/etc. has got to be the most rage-inducing thing ever.
my favorite is when you're closing in on a leesin to kill him and he tries to kick you away but as he does, you ult him so his kick carries him into your tower or team or whatnot. HILARIOUS.
also after like 20 more skarner games, most of which i soloed top (and many, many of them which were losses), i have to say that jungle skarner is objectively better. it's not that skarner is BAD with farm, in fact he's awesome with farm, but the surprise gank factor of his ult and the fact that he *can* function on little-to-no farm means he's better suited for the jungle IMO. there are other champs like nasus/trynd/jax/irelia that function better with higher farm and can't jungle so yeah. give your top lane to a tru bruzer and control the jungle like the rock lobster you are
The most compelling thing about jungle Skarner for me is how freaking strong you are at chasing people and battling it out in 1v1s and 2v2s. That kind of early skirmishing advantage just doesn't do as much top lane as it does in the jungle.
Farm-dependence doesn't dictate whether or not someone should be in lane or in jungle--there are plenty of junglers who need farm, but can pretty seamlessly pick up farm from lanes later, and likewise there are laners that can function on mediocre farm, and give up farm to their carries. What matters most how strong your skillset is for laning vs. jungling, and a lot of Skarner's advantages really shine out of the jungle.
Your early game income will be massively set back and so will your levels. You can regain some of the farm later by farming and pushing lanes but this also depends on the jungler. GP and lee sin will never be able to farm a lot compared to a laner. Skarner, Udyr, and Noct are in the elite tier of junglers who can farm effectively both jungle and lanes while still having strong map and teamfight presence.
Well yeah, all junglers who like farm do "better" in lane, but like guitar said, he can function just as well without much farm, and the gold you get from ganks will hold you over.
But yeah, one of the best junglers right now. Q slow is crazy good because it's basically infinite if you stick on top of the target, and it costs nothing. Q farming later in the game is so good, you can push lanes stupid fast with that and E.W's mobility is amazing in all points of the game.
To me, he's one of the best because, like Udyr and (to a point) Nocturne, he has a place at all points in the game. He doesn't fall off, he can build tanky dps or (in some cases) straight tank, he can initiate, and he just disrupts everything and can 1v1 most people.
initially i was leaning towards 21/9/0 or 21/0/9, taking both the %arpen and %mpen masteries. but 10% armor at level 4 is like.. 3 armor maybe. probably less after your flat reduction from arpen reds. same with mpen.
i feel like skarner the way i built him s1 (0/14/16 with offensive runes) did enough damage on ganks without needing more, AND cleared at about 3:25, AND was a 1v1 god already. when you clear that fast, you only have 2 options, gank or steal enemy wolves. if i go full out offensive and shave off another 10 seconds maybe, what am i going to do with those 10 seconds? this isn't pirate here where full offense is going to catch him up to speed with other junglers, this is the frontrunner in speed getting faster - there's no point.
so instead i'm going to try 0/21/9 for a stronger lategame and lots of MS for stronger ganks. skarner stays pretty high HP so initiator should be up for most of the time, and the cc reduction on juggernaut might prove really useful in ganks. especially with faster mercs.
My first thought was 14/15/1 or 14/9/7. Double %-pen feels really strong for late-game when you do hybrid damage and never buy Void/LW, and both CDR and ASpd are good stats for you.
I'm definitely going 0/21/9 on both udyr and skarner. The offensive things just aren't optimal on them because of the amount of magic damage they do. While tankiness and CC reduction and movement speed are all priority stats on them.
Double %pen seems a decent idea but you skip out on the highly efficient end tier masteries. Skarner wants the %pen a bit more because he tends to go for squishies less and tanks more than udyr.
On November 16 2011 04:25 TheYango wrote: My first thought was 14/15/1 or 14/9/7. Double %-pen feels really strong for late-game when you do hybrid damage and never buy Void/LW, and both CDR and ASpd are good stats for you.
see i just don't know if i agree with that though
like which is more important, getting out of that morgana binding 0.5 seconds faster, or shaving 10 armor and 4 MR off of the vayne you're trying to kill?
i dunno i'll be messing around with a bunch of stuff before eventually just copying stonewall or oddone lol
Eh, I'll probably go full Defensive. You're a tanky dps, you need to get up in their face for attacks, and for your ult you'll be diving into the enemy team to grab someone. I haven't really looked too hard at the mastery trees, but I agree that he probably doesn't get enough out of the offensive tree to justify missing out on defensiveness.
After some testing, I think I'll be going 0/21/9 on Udyr and Skarner for one main reason: the extra defensive stats puts their already great sustain over the tipping point where they can start Boots+3pot, and still do a full clear with plenty of HP to gank (e.g. enough to proc Initiator).
On November 16 2011 05:26 TheYango wrote: After some testing, I think I'll be going 0/21/9 on Udyr and Skarner for one main reason: the extra defensive stats puts their already great sustain over the tipping point where they can start Boots+3pot, and still do a full clear with plenty of HP to gank (e.g. enough to proc Initiator).
can you give me your exact specs on this? i'm really interested in trying it
On November 16 2011 05:26 TheYango wrote: After some testing, I think I'll be going 0/21/9 on Udyr and Skarner for one main reason: the extra defensive stats puts their already great sustain over the tipping point where they can start Boots+3pot, and still do a full clear with plenty of HP to gank (e.g. enough to proc Initiator).
can you give me your exact specs on this? i'm really interested in trying it
Also interested. It seems... unlikely to have that much health after a full clear. What runes as well?
On November 16 2011 05:26 TheYango wrote: After some testing, I think I'll be going 0/21/9 on Udyr and Skarner for one main reason: the extra defensive stats puts their already great sustain over the tipping point where they can start Boots+3pot, and still do a full clear with plenty of HP to gank (e.g. enough to proc Initiator).
can you give me your exact specs on this? i'm really interested in trying it
For runes I ran ASpd red/blue, Armor yellow, and ArPen quints.
I can't remember right now if I tested it using QWQE or QEQW. I do remember that I got a pretty good AoE pull on wolves, and a decent pull on blue, so if your team isn't looking like they're going to help that much, then stick to normal stuff. Otherwise it's Wolves->Blue->Wraiths->Minis->Red->gank.
your utility side looks like garbage if you're doing a boots open, why not take the movespeed, and why are you taking mana regen? totally not an issue for skarner
2/3 points in hardiness for a point in smite mastery/vigor also seems suboptimal, what's your reasoning?
i also think siege commander and enlightenment might be good on skarner, as does niton. why u no take ??
On November 16 2011 06:10 gtrsrs wrote: your utility side looks like garbage if you're doing a boots open, why not take the movespeed, and why are you taking mana regen? totally not an issue for skarner
2/3 points in hardiness for a point in smite mastery/vigor also seems suboptimal, what's your reasoning?
i also think siege commander and enlightenment might be good on skarner, as does niton. why u no take ??
Mana regen because I'm dumb and autopiloted into it for some reason. MSpd is probably better.
The gold value on Summoner's Resolve for Smite is decent. You match the old Greed if you're smiting once like every 1:45, which is pretty reasonable as an average (sometimes you smite almost on CD, and sometimes you save it for a long time).
Vigor I took because I wasn't sure if I needed a little extra hp5 to clear with boots, though in retrospect, the armor is probably still better anyway. Same with Siege Commander--wasn't sure if I could get away with taking it.
On November 16 2011 05:26 TheYango wrote: After some testing, I think I'll be going 0/21/9 on Udyr and Skarner for one main reason: the extra defensive stats puts their already great sustain over the tipping point where they can start Boots+3pot, and still do a full clear with plenty of HP to gank (e.g. enough to proc Initiator).
can you give me your exact specs on this? i'm really interested in trying it
For runes I ran ASpd red/blue, Armor yellow, and ArPen quints.
I can't remember right now if I tested it using QWQE or QEQW. I do remember that I got a pretty good AoE pull on wolves, and a decent pull on blue, so if your team isn't looking like they're going to help that much, then stick to normal stuff. Otherwise it's Wolves->Blue->Wraiths->Minis->Red->gank.
Wait, that plus Boots 3Pot can get you a full clear with enough health to have Initiator up? That seems really stretched. So is that all 3 potions chugged by the end and not missing a single Q or Smite? I'd imagine you'd go QEQW for the heal and quicker nuking as well.
Ugh...deleted. Gonna try this again with a real leash.
EDIT: ALRIGHT. So.....yeah....I'm not really seeing how you did this. I ran 0/21/9 taking full Hardiness instead of +hp5 and Swiftness instead of mp regen. Went QEQW. Spammed all my skills. Started wolves, got a decent leash at blue, chained pots from that point on and still died to Red with one hit left to kill it. (Did Red after golems). Not seeing how the hell you could finish with Initiator up. You could clearly finish this and survive with extra attack speed (I don't have AS blue so I ran +MR instead) and a mega strong leash (really pushing it at low elo). But finishing with above 70%? Don't see it.
I did AS Quints/Marks/Glyphs and Armor Yellows. I was able to do everything but red with a boots start and no leashes whatsoever, killing wolves before blue. Since blue is really where Skarner takes most of his damage I imagine with a decent leash he could do what TheYango claims.
i went 9/21/0 with stonewalls new masteries/runes and stuff.
I tore through the whole jungle and out-leveled the solo lanes. I started with my wolves, got a leash on blue, finished blue, then it was just tearing everything up
I was amazed as heck. I hit 6 before the top solos too.
On November 16 2011 09:38 WaveofShadow wrote: Ugh...deleted. Gonna try this again with a real leash.
EDIT: ALRIGHT. So.....yeah....I'm not really seeing how you did this. I ran 0/21/9 taking full Hardiness instead of +hp5 and Swiftness instead of mp regen. Went QEQW. Spammed all my skills. Started wolves, got a decent leash at blue, chained pots from that point on and still died to Red with one hit left to kill it. (Did Red after golems). Not seeing how the hell you could finish with Initiator up. You could clearly finish this and survive with extra attack speed (I don't have AS blue so I ran +MR instead) and a mega strong leash (really pushing it at low elo). But finishing with above 70%? Don't see it.
How much damage did you take on wolves/blue?
As Seuss said, most of your damage is taken on blue (and because of how healing on level-ups work, you get healed less on your level-ups to 2, 3, and 4 if you take too much damage on blue). If you finish blue at like 60-70% health (if both mid and the corresponding sidelane help, this should not be a problem) without using a pot, then your 3 pots should basically keep your HP pretty much level throughout the rest of your clear.
If you got slightly lower than expected, your wolves should spawn right after you clear minigolems, and you can get quite a bit of healing from doing them.
On November 16 2011 09:38 WaveofShadow wrote: Ugh...deleted. Gonna try this again with a real leash.
EDIT: ALRIGHT. So.....yeah....I'm not really seeing how you did this. I ran 0/21/9 taking full Hardiness instead of +hp5 and Swiftness instead of mp regen. Went QEQW. Spammed all my skills. Started wolves, got a decent leash at blue, chained pots from that point on and still died to Red with one hit left to kill it. (Did Red after golems). Not seeing how the hell you could finish with Initiator up. You could clearly finish this and survive with extra attack speed (I don't have AS blue so I ran +MR instead) and a mega strong leash (really pushing it at low elo). But finishing with above 70%? Don't see it.
How much damage did you take on wolves/blue?
As Seuss said, most of your damage is taken on blue (and because of how healing on level-ups work, you get healed less on your level-ups to 2, 3, and 4 if you take too much damage on blue). If you finish blue at like 60-70% health (if both mid and the corresponding sidelane help, this should not be a problem) without using a pot, then your 3 pots should basically keep your HP pretty much level throughout the rest of your clear.
If you got slightly lower than expected, your wolves should spawn right after you clear minigolems, and you can get quite a bit of healing from doing them.
I tried what Seuss said and jungled without a leash (that was my deleted post). I was able to do everything but red as well. For my leashed run, I did not get a leash at wolves though the blue leash was pretty good so if somehow not getting a leash at wolves equates to 70% hp at level 3 then I guess I'm wrong.
Ah just read you said finish 1st 2 camps and be at 60-70% without using a pot. Now I understand how it's doable, but again I state, I have almost NEVER seen a leash that strong at my elo, and I jungle all the time. One of two things happen if people try. Either: a) they stay too long and leech xp, b) I don't get a strong leash, or c) They somehow manage to fuck up so wolves/golem reset.
I dunno the fast boots don't really seem worth it to me, especially since a cloth armor doesn't exactly hurt Skarner's tankiness. I'm guessing the omission is for faster core/switch to Wit's end instead of Wriggle's?
I dunno the fast boots don't really seem worth it to me, especially since a cloth armor doesn't exactly hurt Skarner's tankiness. I'm guessing the omission is for faster core/switch to Wit's end instead of Wriggle's?
If nothing else, the boots would add a lot of power to your early ganks, as you would be considerably faster than most of the laners. It also gives you more freedom to not build wriggles as your first item (you don't feel you have a "wasted" cloth armor lying around). If you want to pick up wriggles as your first item, it shouldn't be later than normally, as you would have t1 boots anyways by then.
On November 16 2011 09:38 WaveofShadow wrote: Ugh...deleted. Gonna try this again with a real leash.
EDIT: ALRIGHT. So.....yeah....I'm not really seeing how you did this. I ran 0/21/9 taking full Hardiness instead of +hp5 and Swiftness instead of mp regen. Went QEQW. Spammed all my skills. Started wolves, got a decent leash at blue, chained pots from that point on and still died to Red with one hit left to kill it. (Did Red after golems). Not seeing how the hell you could finish with Initiator up. You could clearly finish this and survive with extra attack speed (I don't have AS blue so I ran +MR instead) and a mega strong leash (really pushing it at low elo). But finishing with above 70%? Don't see it.
I run 0/21/9, with flat APen reds, flat armor yellows, flat MR blues, and MSpd quints, QEQWQR, cloth+5pot, and I can still do a full clear from level 1 with no leash and still survive with 45-50% health.
With Initiator and Swiftness and the quints, I have 360 MSpd at level 1, which is better than some champions get with boots 1 lol. I haven't tried the boots opening in jungle, but that would put you over 400 MSpd at level 1, which is pretty lulzy.
Much of a muchness with some changes to the new jungle already on the way, but what are people's experiences w/Skarner in this brave new world? I've been mucking around with dropping Wriggle's Lantern for a Regrowth Pendant + health pot opening and building Philo+HoG into Rageblade before tanking out; with the sustain from his E and the way his Q melts camps, I'm wondering if he's followed in Phoenix Udyr's footsteps re: lantern obsolescence. Also, anyone tried a boots+3 pots opening combined with movespeed quints? Might be easier to finish with Initiator up these days.
wolf -> blue -> wraith -> wolf -> red -> wraith -> golem --> gank or recall
trying to go real fast to level 6
But as oddone was saying on his channel in the mid late game the neutral monsters gains a LOT of health so if you want to not fall behind in the farming area you need some damage items, and i still think that lantern is mandatory especially if ure not building a sheen
My build is: 7x ArP Red 2x AD Red 9x Armor Yellow 9x AS Blues 1x AS Quint 2x MS Quint
0/21/9
Regrowth+Pot->Boots->Philo->HoG->Sheen->Mercs->Shurelyas->Randuins->Triforce Occasionally, I throw in a Wit's End or a Rageblade after my Shurelyas, but that's pretty much how I roll. The jungling route would be wolves->blue->wraiths->wolves->red->golems->gank.
With this setup, I sadly almost never see me leaving my jungle early but rather farm it as much as possible. I usually hit my GP10s at around 7-8 minutes, which is pretty decent. Once I hit 6 I try to gank everytime my ult is off of CD. In teamfights, I will either shurelyaflashult one of their squishies or try to peel their bruisers off of my carries.
I'm not a big fan of the sheen/triforce routes on skarner, simply because I just play him like the original post on r.EVO where you don't dive their carries rather you act as anti assassin firstly and only go in on their carries when they commit to yours. (Or you, since you're standing roughly next to carries). Triforce excels at chasing targets and the sheen proc becomes very close to simply 150~ attack damage boost.
Personally I find it hard to not get a wits end in almost all situations. Something like wriggles-->Mercs-->Wits end --> Situational.
Situational is usually -Frozen heart: Really good on skarner, scales with your passive and wits end, gives armour when you have mercs and wits for MR -Rageblade: Super good for DPS and sustaining long fights -Force of nature: The natural next magic resist item pretty good when poke is very high.
Warmogs/atmas I've seen used, but don't fit with the spirit of skarner, with low CD W//E and wriggles with your passive you have great sustain to go along with your high DPS. Trinity is good for really late or if you decide your role is to go kill squishies, but I find if you're in the tank role generally you just want to get REALLY tanky because if skarner gets focused he's not that tanky and he loses his MS boost and if he's not hitting he gets no reduced cds as well so he's easier to focus than udyr, since udyrs shield cd and bear work fine when you're not hitting a target and taking damage.
I was using my udyr runes and I found the damage lacking and I was running oom. I switched to 10% AS, 5 arpen reds, AD quints, armour yellows and mr/lvl blues and I felt like I was much more effective and had more options in the jungle just from the faster clear//less mana spent. Still running 9/21/0, feel like its still better than 21 offensive on skarner. Not totally sure though.
I wouldn't look into the hybrid pen too much. On jungle skarner clearing speed is far more important than a small % damage boost later on. As such I'd prefer a decent mix of arpen/ad/as whichever is optimal for your DPS. My page is just standard generic AD jungle page which I kinda stole from smash.
I like to build a Philo Stone/Shurelya's Reverie on Skarner. It gets rid of any mana issues, and the Reverie active gives him better gap closing ability.
Frozen Heart is my armor item of choice, but I like Banshee's Veil more than FoN tbh. There comes a point where stacking resistances isn't as good as just building health, so Warmog's can be good on Skarner.
I use 0/21/9, jungle Skarner and I usually find myself playing straight up as my team's tank.
Personally I like opening with a standard wolves>...>minigolems>gank route, and depending on how successful I am, I come out with wriggles, mercs and philo/HoG or both. Next item would be sheen or glacial shroud because I tend to keep the first 2 blues to myself, and the 3rd one onwards is given away.
I think even lategame, the only damage item skarner needs is trinity, every other item should go towards tankiness of some sort. His base values with trinity are high enough to always be a threat to carries, and still deal good damage to everybody else.
wriggles+Gp5+boots>mercs>sheen>shurelya's>situational survivability with trinity finishing up fairly late is usually my rough outline. I like getting a fairly early shurelya's because with w+shurelya's, even a small positional mistake can be punished, and skarner's ult is pretty awesome for snatching some cowardly individual from under tower.
0/21/9 taking all the movespeed stuff. I take ghost+smite because ghost allows skarner to pull off lighning speed ganks, and regardless of warding punish people who push past middle of river.
Some recommendations for runes would be appreciated though, currently still in the process of buying runes to optimize jungle.
i just picked skarner up the other day and have played 10-15 games with him. i tried the item builds on solomid and both wriggles and rushing triforce didnt seem very successful to me. he also didnt feel very tanky to me even when i build pure tank (no damage reduction besides the weak shield)
so i started going meki pendent -> b when u have 1000 for tear and boots -> sheen -> manamune -> wits end -> tank items. ive been much more successful with these items. you are a mid game beast as soon as you get manamune, and then wits end puts it over the top.
any thoughts on manamune on skarner or did i miss that phase?
On December 23 2011 05:31 Vaporized wrote: i just picked skarner up the other day and have played 10-15 games with him. i tried the item builds on solomid and both wriggles and rushing triforce didnt seem very successful to me. he also didnt feel very tanky to me even when i build pure tank (no damage reduction besides the weak shield)
so i started going meki pendent -> b when u have 1000 for tear and boots -> sheen -> manamune -> wits end -> tank items. ive been much more successful with these items. you are a mid game beast as soon as you get manamune, and then wits end puts it over the top.
any thoughts on manamune on skarner or did i miss that phase?
edit: jungle skarner btw
There is zero chance you need mana that badly, worst case scenario you go philo or chalice and that solves your mana problems ten times as efficiently.
On December 23 2011 07:21 Craton wrote: I don't usually get Wriggles on Skarner. He has pretty good sustain just from sigils/e/w and it doesn't help his damage/tankiness much for its cost.
I just like it because it basically guarantees you're coming out of the jungle for a gank with full health. You don't need full health, but it generally helps.
On December 23 2011 05:31 Vaporized wrote: i just picked skarner up the other day and have played 10-15 games with him. i tried the item builds on solomid and both wriggles and rushing triforce didnt seem very successful to me. he also didnt feel very tanky to me even when i build pure tank (no damage reduction besides the weak shield)
so i started going meki pendent -> b when u have 1000 for tear and boots -> sheen -> manamune -> wits end -> tank items. ive been much more successful with these items. you are a mid game beast as soon as you get manamune, and then wits end puts it over the top.
any thoughts on manamune on skarner or did i miss that phase?
edit: jungle skarner btw
There is zero chance you need mana that badly, worst case scenario you go philo or chalice and that solves your mana problems ten times as efficiently.
i just went 11-4-30 in a 60 minute game. i sold the wits end for a starks, got banshees veil, frozen heart, and triforce late game to go with manamune and boots and i remained a force all the way to the end. the manamune benefits from the mana on banshee and frozen heart too. we were losing til i got manamune, the game ended like 48-25 kills for each team. felt like a solid build to me.
On December 23 2011 05:31 Vaporized wrote: i just picked skarner up the other day and have played 10-15 games with him. i tried the item builds on solomid and both wriggles and rushing triforce didnt seem very successful to me. he also didnt feel very tanky to me even when i build pure tank (no damage reduction besides the weak shield)
so i started going meki pendent -> b when u have 1000 for tear and boots -> sheen -> manamune -> wits end -> tank items. ive been much more successful with these items. you are a mid game beast as soon as you get manamune, and then wits end puts it over the top.
any thoughts on manamune on skarner or did i miss that phase?
edit: jungle skarner btw
There is zero chance you need mana that badly, worst case scenario you go philo or chalice and that solves your mana problems ten times as efficiently.
i just went 11-4-30 in a 60 minute game. i sold the wits end for a starks, got banshees veil, frozen heart, and triforce late game to go with manamune and boots and i remained a force all the way to the end. the manamune benefits from the mana on banshee and frozen heart too. we were losing til i got manamune, the game ended like 48-25 kills for each team. felt like a solid build to me.
your argument is that you scaled well with skarner? lol
you can farm up the tear so fast manamune provides a ton of ad + what might as well be unlimited mana. add the wits end and you are beastmode suddenly 20-25 minutes into the game.
On December 23 2011 08:12 Vaporized wrote: what would be better then?
anything, really
the point people are trying to make here is who cares how fast you farm up tear? you're still building tear. that's 980 gold spent entirely on mana, mana that you won't even make use of past like 200 extra. you then put *more* gold into turning that into attack damage, the offensive stat that skarner scales least from that he still uses
the offensive stats skarner wants in order are: CDR Attack speed AP AD lifesteal crit spellvamp
so building an AD-centric item as your first item is silly (unless it's just a base item, like a longsword for wriggles or pickaxe for guinsoo's).
the reason that you're doing so well with skarner, even using shitty builds, is that skarner is simply stronger than most other champs atm. OP? maybe not, but stronger than most other champs and all other junglers sans udyr? definitely. i've built madred's bloodrazer as a first item on skarner and gone 5-0 in a 1600 ranked game. it's not because BR is OP on skarner, but because skarner is just beastmode. likewise i've built pure tank items and been my team's first or second offensive threat. you can build anything on skarner and succeed. if you've found success using your manamune build, then by all means go for it. but just know that you'll reach a point eventually where the fact that you're building manamune will start to hurt you, and then come back to this thread and look at any of the better builds given and copy them
Assuming no wriggle build, you open regrowth and build philo your first trip back. Both items completely solve mana issues, but with philo you have better sustain, passive gp5, and builds into the best initiate item in the game (which also gives CDR, one of your best offensive stats).
You should always get Shurelia, especially in solo queue, since it's hard to be in sync with your support. Shurelia+FH also puts you at CDR cap.
Tear/Manamune are not worth getting unless you need infinite mana. Flat mana isn't efficient to buy on people with sustained mana usage issues, but is made for people who have high burst mana usage. Skarner doesn't, so Tear is a complete waste on him.
Manamune on Skarner is the same as Manamune on Ezreal--sure you get charges fast, but you do nothing with that mana. Unless having 1k mana translates into a real gain in damage (like on Corki who can spam out 700 mana worth of spells in under 10 seconds), you're better off buying straight damage items.
On December 23 2011 08:12 Vaporized wrote: what would be better then?
you can farm up the tear so fast manamune provides a ton of ad + what might as well be unlimited mana. add the wits end and you are beastmode suddenly 20-25 minutes into the game.
dont overestimate how much AD mana provides. It's a lot less than you feel like it is, i used to feel the same way about it you do until i sat down and really thought about the math, so if you're getting manamune for AD, it's not worth it.
On December 23 2011 08:12 Vaporized wrote: what would be better then?
you can farm up the tear so fast manamune provides a ton of ad + what might as well be unlimited mana. add the wits end and you are beastmode suddenly 20-25 minutes into the game.
I'd rather just get an early sheen and glacial shroud after my gp5's&boots. Just those 2 items solve pretty much all mana problems, I rarely if ever have to b because of mana after getting that. Sheen's proc is pretty much up every 2-3 auto's, and glacial gives much needed cdr. Glacial also let's you dive towers with relative safety. I don't know the numbers, but I'd imagine that both sheen and glacial are more cost effective than manamune dps-wise. I build tanky skarner with the only dps item being a late trinity and sometimes wit's end though, so suit yourself.
i've been rushing wit's end on skarner, would it make sense to pick up sheen after recurve bow instead of finishing wit's end first?
edit: went back and read the whole thread, had no idea people built rageblade on skarner, first game with it seemed to hit a nice damage power level much, much earlier than triforce and with the gold for defense left over not seeing any real faults in it
I have tried many builds but the best at least for me, if im tanking is:
Philo -> Boots -> HoG -> mercs or tabi ->rushing to trinity (starting with sheen) -> shurelia's reveire -> raduins -> force of nature and finally warmogs or another health item
Have never had mana problems. If I have a good tank on the team the best is changing nature and warmogs for rageblade and wit's end
Might do some adjustments here and there, but so far, that's what I like. Still struggling with runes, though :/ I'm currently running 7 ArP, 2 AS Reds, Armor Yellow, MR/lvl blue, 2 AS Quint, 1 ArP quint. Still wondering if the ArP is actually worth it or I'd be better off using MS Quints and 9 AS reds.
Edit: anyone else feeling like Rageblade is EXTREMELY good on him in longer midgame fights, but you just don't have the time to build it?
On December 31 2011 01:53 Shiv. wrote: Edit: anyone else feeling like Rageblade is EXTREMELY good on him in longer midgame fights, but you just don't have the time to build it?
I still swear by Rageblade as my only offensive item on Skarner. I find TriForce too expensive coming out of the jungle, and I feel GRB has the edge over Wit's End due to Skarner's vulnerability to poke - I prefer grabbing an early Negatron if needed. I've also gravitated towards getting Kindlegem over HoG for CDr & an earlier Reverie (aside from the ganking advantages a quick Reverie provides during the laning phase, the mp5 jumps from 8 to15, useful when you donate your blues). Skarner does enough damage with just his kit that I find my post Philo/boots options depend on your team/your opponents - my last two or three ranked games w/him have gone something like
Edit: Rune-wise, I've swapped from (IIRC) 3xArPen quints, 1xArPen red, 8xAS reds, armor yellows and AS blues to MS quints, ArPen reds, armor yellows and MR/lvl blues.
On December 31 2011 07:10 novalight wrote: problem with rageblade is that it's baaaaaaaaaaaad until you complete it
i disagree. 1260 might be better spent on a sheen than 860 is on a blasting wand, but the blasting wand isn't BAD. you're still getting extra damage on either spells or autos from the components, and as soon as you complete it, the AS is fking awesome.
Issue with rageblade is that it's sort of meh overall. You usually only get 1 offensive item like triforce/wits, both of which have attack speed like rageblade, but also defensive things like mr/hp/additional slow/movespeed. AD/AP is rather meh on Skarner.
comparing triforce to guinsoo is dumb it's double the cost of rageblade wit's is a fair comparison but i think skarner can (a)max the stacks easily enough on rageblade and (b)make use of fully stacked rageblade over the MR from wit's better
ive been noticing that whoever has skarner usually wins the game
i was jungling today
i went top, killed top, went right to mid, killed mid, then went right to bottom and killed bottom!!
it was freaking amazing, this was pretty early, I believe i was around level 4 at the time.
We were losing before that point
Then i just ganked top and mid and usually we got a kill off of them or sent them recalling. Successfully denied them exp the whole time and we just steamrolled.
skarner is just so strong with his slows and ult it makes him great. Get a kill or 2 early, and it is even more hectic.
Nowadays i go wits end+sheen in 90% of the game. The attackspeed makes a HUGE difference, and coupled with sheen you get enough damage. I almost never finish triforce tho because i focus on shurelia+randuins before finishing triforce.
Played my first game with rageblade as my first/core offensive item instead of my typical wits end. Felt really good as long as I remembered to press Q a few times before a fight broke out.
Could we discuss the issue of Wit's End vs. Sheen as an early offensive item? I discarded the idea of Rageblade first and foremost because I feel I sacrifice too much just building it (neither Pickaxe nor Blasting Wand are exactly good on their own) and I like the side effects the other two have, mainly being MR (WE) or Mana + the option to build into something (Sheen). I feel like an early WE benefits my jungling speed much more than Sheen does, plus the MR is pretty nice in teamfights and ganks. Sheen just gives me the option to roam around much more, abusing the ridiculously low respawn timers on jungle mobs those days.
I mean, yeah, when their teamcomp is double AP, Wit's is a no-brainer, but I'm really not sure what to get when they have a bruiser top.
The reason I'm not getting both is because I feel like I sacrifice too much survivability. I usually Shurelya-Flash-Ult fools and need to survive their teams initial burst for doing so.
Also, what do you guys think about Aegis on him? Personally, I don't like it all that much because I'd rather have a Shurelya's and a Glacial.
Wit's always. If you are a character that scales off of AS and has no reason to build multiple offensive items (Skarnar with his passive and needing to be in the middle of everything), Wit's End is basically a no brainer if you ask me. if you're getting stupidly fed and need to carry more of the offensive load, go get that triforce, but for the staple offensive item, it should always be wit's end IMO.
is skarner op? i just got counterjungled hard by a WW, i was lvl 6 when their mid akali was lvl 10. i died twice before 6 too. but i got one kill and then another and suddenly i was 12-3 and had triforce and atmogs. and a 2-8 start for our team turned into a 40-25 victory. that moment when you get sheen\mercs\philo is one of skarners strongest imo. the dps combined with the perma slow is crazy.
I start Regrowth and pot, i do wolves then my blue with a leash, then i usually counter jungle the opponents doubles or wraiths and doubles. Then I go back to my jungle and clear it fully. My build is Philo's, Heart of Gold, Merc Treads, Trinity Force, Frozen Heart, Force of Nature/Wit's End if I'm dying to magic damage, then Gunblade and Rageblade.
I usually get really big just by farming my jungle and having two Gp5's. I don't gank until lvl 6 unless they are very overextended/stupid. I do get early kills sometimes when I catch people in their jungle. Skarner is a great counterjungler cause of how fast he can clear camps and his ability to shield and speed boost away if he gets caught.
In teamfights I just run at their carry and ult him then do my permaslow. He will need to flash or use a blink ability to stay out of your ult range, so he will either die or burn a spell just to leave the fight. Only carry I have a problem getting is Ashe cause of her supreme kiting skills.
IMO he competes with Rammus for being the best jungler right now.
I haven't tried him solotop but I hear he wins most toplane matchups easily if you already have a jungler on your team.
There's been recent discussion in GD around substituting Stark's Fervor for Wit's End/GRB (e.g. r.Evo, spinesheath posts) - tried out a Stark's/Aegis rush after Philo/Boots in a few games and was pleasantly suprised, though occasionally ran into mana issues pre-Reverie. Had the likes of Nocturne/Nidalee/Gangplank top in those games, so it worked quite well - managed to 5-0 another team in a fight mid when they had Baron buff, heh.
On January 11 2012 22:49 L wrote: Nashors, or at the very least stinger is a better choice than both if you aren't going to FH. Discuss.
Nope. First and foremost, there's next to no reason not to go FH, and Nashor's is too expensive without offering any defenses. If you are willing to spend 3k on an offensive item, you might aswell save a thousand more and get Triforce. It might be better than Rageblade, but Wit's End is a lot stronger because it will be your only source of MR besides Merc treads.
Worth mentioning that a lot of pros are not taking a level of E until level 10+ as its mana cost is prohibitive and health being topped off is rarely an issue. QWQWQRQW etc.
On January 11 2012 23:46 mordek wrote: Worth mentioning that a lot of pros are not taking a level of E until level 10+ as its mana cost is prohibitive and health being topped off is rarely an issue. QWQWQRQW etc.
Yeah, I've seen that. I like the early level in E because I feel it let's me clear wraiths faster which gives me an easier time at red. I leave it at lvl 1, max Q then W.
I started playing Skarner for about a week and I think it's a very OP champ. I was just starting to learn jungle and Skarner was one of the easiest/fastest champ to clear. So far, this route has worked out best for me.
regrowth+potion wolves -> blue -> wraiths -> mini golems -> red -> wolves-> wraiths -> mini golems -> home
You will get about level 4.5 and 720-750 gold depending on how fast you cleared. Get philo stone + boots and see if there are any ganking opportunities. If not, continue clearing jungle and aim for HoG.
On January 11 2012 23:46 mordek wrote: Worth mentioning that a lot of pros are not taking a level of E until level 10+ as its mana cost is prohibitive and health being topped off is rarely an issue. QWQWQRQW etc.
I think they're just dumb. I always get a level in E and never have mana issues and it's useful for faster clear speed and higher sustain, especially during your early jungle pass.
On January 11 2012 22:49 L wrote: Nashors, or at the very least stinger is a better choice than both if you aren't going to FH. Discuss.
Nope. First and foremost, there's next to no reason not to go FH, and Nashor's is too expensive without offering any defenses. If you are willing to spend 3k on an offensive item, you might aswell save a thousand more and get Triforce. It might be better than Rageblade, but Wit's End is a lot stronger because it will be your only source of MR besides Merc treads.
There are plenty of reasons not to go FH. You have a blitz/ryze/malph/etc on your team. Their AD output is lagging because they did mediocre in lane. Most of their magic burst is focused on you because of your initiations. You can reliably ult their AD carry, etc.
Do the math on wits vs stinger + negatron. You'll find you're not missing mres in the tradeoff; its the wits end proc. Which honestly isn't very important compared to getting more ults off midgame and more Qs off during fights.
Also, Nashors is a full 1.2k less expensive than triforce. Might as well say "save up an extra 200$ and get a nashors + chain+negatron". If you want to compare pure offensive items, Nashors + Sheen is almost the same cost as triforce, bursts harder, CCs better, actually has significantly more survivability because of the synergy with W and ult and clears jungle substantially faster while being built. The only real loss is the 12%ms, but you have W up more often to compensate.
Worth mentioning that a lot of pros are not taking a level of E until level 10+ as its mana cost is prohibitive and health being topped off is rarely an issue. QWQWQRQW etc.
That's not why they skip it.
They skip it because W's bonuses fade when the shield is broken, making level 1 W very weak in jungle. Since your second point in W comes very late if you get a point in e (QWQEQRQW or QEQWQRQW). Losing 30% attack speed in 2 attacks blows, but keeping it up means you get to Q signficantly faster, which speeds up clear times. A single extra level 2 Q out damages level 1 E.
On January 11 2012 23:46 mordek wrote: Worth mentioning that a lot of pros are not taking a level of E until level 10+ as its mana cost is prohibitive and health being topped off is rarely an issue. QWQWQRQW etc.
I think they're just dumb. I always get a level in E and never have mana issues and it's useful for faster clear speed and higher sustain, especially during your early jungle pass.
It depends on a lot of things, I think. You want to be able to leave jungle, get to lane, and use abilities at pretty much any point, so low mana hurts quite a bit.
Will you get a Philo stone early? No mana issues, spamming E is no problem. However, that's not the case for a lot of Skarner players.
Are you feeding Blue to midlane? If so, E is prohibitive in it's cost past your first blue.
You also have to consider the W shield strength. W is much more reasonably mana efficient (since it has a longer CD and there are more bonuses to it), and the shield strength generally means you won't need the heal. Also, the shield strength generally meets or beats the heal you'd get from an E.
I think there are pros and cons to both QEQW/QWQE and QWQW, but I'm liking the latter lately. QW is more than enough to clear the jungle as fast or faster than any other jungler, and I barely notice the lack of a heal in most cases.
On January 11 2012 22:49 L wrote: Nashors, or at the very least stinger is a better choice than both if you aren't going to FH. Discuss.
Nope. First and foremost, there's next to no reason not to go FH, and Nashor's is too expensive without offering any defenses. If you are willing to spend 3k on an offensive item, you might aswell save a thousand more and get Triforce. It might be better than Rageblade, but Wit's End is a lot stronger because it will be your only source of MR besides Merc treads.
There are plenty of reasons not to go FH. You have a blitz/ryze/malph/etc on your team. Their AD output is lagging because they did mediocre in lane. Most of their magic burst is focused on you because of your initiations. You can reliably ult their AD carry, etc.
Do the math on wits vs stinger + negatron. You'll find you're not missing mres in the tradeoff; its the wits end proc. Which honestly isn't very important compared to getting more ults off midgame and more Qs off during fights.
Also, Nashors is a full 1.2k less expensive than triforce. Might as well say "save up an extra 200$ and get a nashors + chain+negatron". If you want to compare pure offensive items, Nashors + Sheen is almost the same cost as triforce, bursts harder, CCs better, actually has significantly more survivability because of the synergy with W and ult and clears jungle substantially faster while being built. The only real loss is the 12%ms, but you have W up more often to compensate.
Worth mentioning that a lot of pros are not taking a level of E until level 10+ as its mana cost is prohibitive and health being topped off is rarely an issue. QWQWQRQW etc.
That's not why they skip it.
They skip it because W's bonuses fade when the shield is broken, making level 1 W very weak in jungle. Since your second point in W comes very late if you get a point in e (QWQEQRQW or QEQWQRQW). Losing 30% attack speed in 2 attacks blows, but keeping it up means you get to Q signficantly faster, which speeds up clear times. A single extra level 2 Q out damages level 1 E.
The mana cost on E being awful certainly doesn't help either, but yeah. Leveling W is more DPS in the jungle, because you want that shield to hold up as long as possible so you get the steroid, AND the steroid power increases. Once I started going QWQWQ I immediately wondered what the point of ever getting E was. You MIGHT have gotten slightly better sustain from the healing, but i think even the extra damage mitigated by the higher level shield + faster clear time from higher / longer attack speed steroid (further mitigating damage) outweighs even that. It's also better for ganking than E is, since you get more +MS to gapclose/chase with and hopefully get that Q (+red when applicable) permaslow to take effect.
i still don't understand how "skarner" and "mana problems" are ever used in the same sentence
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana"
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote: i still don't understand how "skarner" and "mana problems" are ever used in the same sentence
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana"
Do you ever give away Blue? How often do you go back? Do you spam E on CD?
I mean, yeah, I can level E way up and never use it in the jungle and only in fights and never run OOM, and if Skarner has Blue he's basically an unstoppable bulldozer.
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote: i still don't understand how "skarner" and "mana problems" are ever used in the same sentence
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana"
If you give away blue, you can run out of mana very quickly. Skarner might not have high mana costs, but he uses around 150 mana per camp without e. with e that goes up to 205->260 or so (1 less q, 1 more e or two of each)
If you're running E over W, and not E AND W, you're getting less Q procs and are probably clearing slower, but at a lower mana cost.
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote: i still don't understand how "skarner" and "mana problems" are ever used in the same sentence
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana"
If you give away blue, you can run out of mana very quickly. Skarner might not have high mana costs, but he uses around 150 mana per camp without e. with e that goes up to 205->260 or so (1 less q, 1 more e or two of each)
If you're running E over W, and not E AND W, you're getting less Q procs and are probably clearing slower, but at a lower mana cost.
150 mana without E? that's probably what you guys are doing wrong skarner should clear camps with 3-5 Qs, you don't need to W and E for every camp. i generally only E for wraiths and buffs, and W only for buffs
and yeah, i realize that was dicey how i wrote that: i take E at level 2, i don't max E before W. QEQW, R>Q>W>E
i usually give away blues starting at second, sometimes third depending on who's laning mid
i think you guys need to stop using every skill on every camp and your mana issues will disappear. just manage your resources better O_O. you don't blow your whole paycheck at the first store you go to on payday every week, do you?
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote: i still don't understand how "skarner" and "mana problems" are ever used in the same sentence
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana"
If you give away blue, you can run out of mana very quickly. Skarner might not have high mana costs, but he uses around 150 mana per camp without e. with e that goes up to 205->260 or so (1 less q, 1 more e or two of each)
If you're running E over W, and not E AND W, you're getting less Q procs and are probably clearing slower, but at a lower mana cost.
150 mana without E? that's probably what you guys are doing wrong skarner should clear camps with 3-5 Qs, you don't need to W and E for every camp. i generally only E for wraiths and buffs, and W only for buffs
and yeah, i realize that was dicey how i wrote that: i take E at level 2, i don't max E before W. QEQW, R>Q>W>E
i usually give away blues starting at second, sometimes third depending on who's laning mid
i think you guys need to stop using every skill on every camp and your mana issues will disappear. just manage your resources better O_O. you don't blow your whole paycheck at the first store you go to on payday every week, do you?
You go Wriggle's first. It's a different story with a normal Philo/HoG build. I spam Q and W once it's level 2 pretty much every camp and I literally NEVER have mana issues on Skarner. If you're not spending your resources to jungle faster, you're doing it wrong.
You generally do blow everything possible on every camp, because you want to clear as fast as possible. The few seconds you save by having W up matter quite a bit in the early game.
Having W up at all times early on (especially before Wriggles is finished if you build it) also keeps your health up so you can gank with less risk to yourself. Similar idea behind E's heal, but W is much more efficient about it.
I don't really like taking a level in E early, the extra shield you get from your W mitigates more damage and the movement speed makes ganking more powerfull. Usually I take the first point when I'm at no risk of being oom, but even then, lvl1 E doesn't really do much...
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote: i still don't understand how "skarner" and "mana problems" are ever used in the same sentence
over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana"
If you give away blue, you can run out of mana very quickly. Skarner might not have high mana costs, but he uses around 150 mana per camp without e. with e that goes up to 205->260 or so (1 less q, 1 more e or two of each)
If you're running E over W, and not E AND W, you're getting less Q procs and are probably clearing slower, but at a lower mana cost.
150 mana without E? that's probably what you guys are doing wrong skarner should clear camps with 3-5 Qs, you don't need to W and E for every camp. i generally only E for wraiths and buffs, and W only for buffs
and yeah, i realize that was dicey how i wrote that: i take E at level 2, i don't max E before W. QEQW, R>Q>W>E
i usually give away blues starting at second, sometimes third depending on who's laning mid
i think you guys need to stop using every skill on every camp and your mana issues will disappear. just manage your resources better O_O. you don't blow your whole paycheck at the first store you go to on payday every week, do you?
You go Wriggle's first. It's a different story with a normal Philo/HoG build. I spam Q and W once it's level 2 pretty much every camp and I literally NEVER have mana issues on Skarner. If you're not spending your resources to jungle faster, you're doing it wrong.
i dunno, i disagree with that mentality
like, how much time does a W save you in the jungle? it's going to be dispersed i like 2 hits, so you get maybe 2 hits off at increased attack speed? so you're shaving less than a second off the camp for a bucket of mana? and if the opponent suddenly comes barreling into your camp you don't have your escape ready now?
same with E. if you're at full health, how much does E do for you? a tiny bit of AOE damage? nice on wraiths for sure, but what about wolves + golems? questionable to use it there.
there are tons of champs that i would say using all your spells to clear camps is actually going to hurt you. warwick comes to mind - Q just isn't worth except on buffs or if you are low in HP. the mana sink is too huge. malphite too. the only spell i use on him in the jungle is E, sometimes W. you don't need the -speed or +speed from Q, so why even use it? fearing camps as nocturne can hurt you if they stray far enough away from the other creeps that your cleave doesn't hit the whole camp. olaf shouldn't be spamming his E in the jungle for no reason... etc etc etc
you should try to think things over more and decide what is optimal in the jungle, not necessarily what is speediest. exceptions of course at buffs, or when counterjungling if you're not 100% sure it's safe. but the jungle is definitely not the place to QWER spam mindlessly
At a couple ranks and with armor yellows your W should last more than "a couple hits". The increased attacks and more Qs help more than you'd think. Also, if someone invades and I just used my W? Well, my Q is charged, and my shield kept me from taking too much damage. I'd turn and hit him, then run while he was slowed, and my autos just brought W back up. Skarner is one of the hardest junglers to interrupt and kill, more times than not I kill the invader.
If you're not going to be using E except on one or two packs, why are you leveling it? You're making the argument that you don't need the extra AoE damage for killing faster, and yet you're saying you need it to kill buff monsters? Having E for Red or Blue will save you maybe a couple seconds, and if you're not optimizing speed on the other camps, what's the point on those?
Even then, if you have Wriggles, W is better because it lets you land more hits for lifesteal and damage procs, and the shield absorbs more with the armor + shield amount than you'd heal anyway. It's like, E is great and useful, but QW does the same thing, just as good, for less mana.
Also, speed is tantamount in the jungle. The faster you clear camps, the faster they respawn, and the faster you can get out of the jungle to gank. QWQWQR is just as fast as QEQWQR or QWQEQR, but uses less mana so you can gank better, and gives you higher movespeed on your shield for said ganks.
On January 12 2012 06:01 Requizen wrote: Also, speed is tantamount in the jungle. The faster you clear camps, the faster they respawn, and the faster you can get out of the jungle to gank.
i think i've just shown that htis isn't true. what good is clearing the jungle 1 second faster if it depletes your mana enough that you can't get that extra hungering strike off, or seismic shard, or not have enough mana to W away if the gank goes sour?
On January 12 2012 06:01 Requizen wrote: Also, speed is tantamount in the jungle. The faster you clear camps, the faster they respawn, and the faster you can get out of the jungle to gank.
i think i've just shown that htis isn't true. what good is clearing the jungle 1 second faster if it depletes your mana enough that you can't get that extra hungering strike off, or seismic shard, or not have enough mana to W away if the gank goes sour?
You haven't proven shit because that literally never happens. What on earth do you have to do to actually run oom on Skarner?
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote: over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana"
i don't think i ever said i run out of mana on skarner i'm saying the reasons you guys do is because you use every skill on every camp x_x
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote: over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana"
i don't think i ever said i run out of mana on skarner i'm saying the reasons you guys do is because you use every skill on every camp x_x
I spam my skills on every camp once I get my philo (save E sometimes) and I never run oom. Speed IS the single most important thing about jungling. Period.
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote: over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana"
i don't think i ever said i run out of mana on skarner i'm saying the reasons you guys do is because you use every skill on every camp x_x
I spam my skills on every camp once I get my philo (save E sometimes) and I never run oom. Speed IS the single most important thing about jungling. Period.
map awareness is the most important thing about jungling knowing when opponents are converging on your buffs, predicting when an opponent is going to gank so you can take his buffs or dragon, knowing when to abandon a camp to assist a gank or countergank... these things are all more important than speeding through every camp why are you being so hostile x_x
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote: over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana"
i don't think i ever said i run out of mana on skarner i'm saying the reasons you guys do is because you use every skill on every camp x_x
I spam my skills on every camp once I get my philo (save E sometimes) and I never run oom. Speed IS the single most important thing about jungling. Period.
map awareness is the most important thing about jungling knowing when opponents are converging on your buffs, predicting when an opponent is going to gank so you can take his buffs or dragon, knowing when to abandon a camp to assist a gank or countergank... these things are all more important than speeding through every camp why are you being so hostile x_x
Because you are pulling shit out of your ass. You said ''you guys run out of mana because you blow your skill on every camp''
No one ever said that. Requizen simply stated that if you are NOT building an early Philo AND giving up blue buffs, E is going to run you out of mana eventually. All of a sudden, you try to argue based on the assumption we do run oom because we are blowing our shit on camps, which simply is not true. All your map awareness isn't going to get you anywhere if you are stuck at your golems not using W.
Every jungler has to manage their mana appropriately without the blue buff. There's no special exception for Skarner here. You aren't going to spam your skills on CD while clearing without blue, but you can certainly get added speed and sustain from E versus no E by using it appropriately. Your ability to maintain high hp and clear speed directly translates into your ability to gank more often and farm more often. It's the kind of thing that can have an exponential effect.
On January 12 2012 07:56 Shiv. wrote: Because you are pulling shit out of your ass. You said ''you guys run out of mana because you blow your skill on every camp''
No one ever said that. Requizen simply stated that if you are NOT building an early Philo AND giving up blue buffs, E is going to run you out of mana eventually. All of a sudden, you try to argue based on the assumption we do run oom because we are blowing our shit on camps, which simply is not true. All your map awareness isn't going to get you anywhere if you are stuck at your golems not using W.
i'm not pulling anything out of my ass -_- i have played 100 games with skarner and never felt low on mana the biggest complaint in this thread is "how to not run out of mana?" it's not like i'm not using my skills during ganks/fights, so then how are people running out of mana when i'm not? the only option is (a) they are using them between camps or between ganks on nothing, or (b) they are using every skill on camps. it's pretty easy logic to follow
if you're not running out of mana, then you're fine. my posts are addressed at everyone who is saying they can't maintain mana. if you want more mana, use less skills. you don't need to use skills on small camps beyond Q.
now you come out of nowhere trying to tell me "i spam skills to have the highest speed in the jungle and i never run out of mana, speed is all that matters." if the first part is true, i suggest swapping out your mana regen yellows, blues, reds, and quints for more useful runes. the second part simply isn't true at all
i mean i don't know. are you a 2k player? maybe you do know better than me
On January 12 2012 07:56 Shiv. wrote: Because you are pulling shit out of your ass. You said ''you guys run out of mana because you blow your skill on every camp''
No one ever said that. Requizen simply stated that if you are NOT building an early Philo AND giving up blue buffs, E is going to run you out of mana eventually. All of a sudden, you try to argue based on the assumption we do run oom because we are blowing our shit on camps, which simply is not true. All your map awareness isn't going to get you anywhere if you are stuck at your golems not using W.
i'm not pulling anything out of my ass -_- i have played 100 games with skarner and never felt low on mana the biggest complaint in this thread is "how to not run out of mana?" it's not like i'm not using my skills during ganks/fights, so then how are people running out of mana when i'm not? the only option is (a) they are using them between camps or between ganks on nothing, or (b) they are using every skill on camps. it's pretty easy logic to follow
if you're not running out of mana, then you're fine. my posts are addressed at everyone who is saying they can't maintain mana. if you want more mana, use less skills. you don't need to use skills on small camps beyond Q.
now you come out of nowhere trying to tell me "i spam skills to have the highest speed in the jungle and i never run out of mana, speed is all that matters." if the first part is true, i suggest swapping out your mana regen yellows, blues, reds, and quints for more useful runes. the second part simply isn't true at all
i mean i don't know. are you a 2k player? maybe you do know better than me
Please quote a single person that said ''I run out of mana all the time'' or ''I have huge problems containing mana.'' And then, please tell me again the biggest complaint in this thread is people running oom.
What I am saying is: I spam my stuff on most of the camps (not on CD obviously) and I do NOT run out of mana without any mana regen runes or masteries. Like, what the hell are you talking about? I'm usually not someone who is going to insult someone on a forum, but you are COMPLETELY ignoring my post and talking about random stuff that is not actually adressing ANYTHING I have been saying.
I'm not saying I know better, I'm saying you say people say things they clearly didn't.
On January 12 2012 05:12 deskscaress wrote: over 100 ranked games with skarner, usually wriggle's first instead of philo, AND i get E over W in jungle... never once, at any single point of any single game, did i ever feel like "oh shit i'm running low on mana"
i don't think i ever said i run out of mana on skarner i'm saying the reasons you guys do is because you use every skill on every camp x_x
''You guys do''? How would you know we run out of mana? That's what I mean when I say you're pulling shit out of your ass.
can we all just calm down and agree that skarner needs some serious mana cost increases on his abilities again in order for him to be even remotely balanced.
On January 12 2012 11:30 Shauni wrote: can we all just calm down and agree that skarner needs some serious mana cost increases on his abilities again in order for him to be even remotely balanced.
a 'ridiculous gank threat he produces post-6' is something that even ww has in common with skarner, but i doubt anybody will make the claim that ww is currently op. low mana q is the main problem because it gives skarner super fast clear times AND a ridiculously good chasing tool that gives him good ganks even without his ult. forcing players to choose between spamming q in jungle or saving mana to gank is probably the simplest fix
On January 12 2012 14:20 novalight wrote: a 'ridiculous gank threat he produces post-6' is something that even ww has in common with skarner, but i doubt anybody will make the claim that ww is currently op. low mana q is the main problem because it gives skarner super fast clear times AND a ridiculously good chasing tool that gives him good ganks even without his ult. forcing players to choose between spamming q in jungle or saving mana to gank is probably the simplest fix
See the kit comment. Skarner's ult is STRONGER in ganks, he has a ms buff which helps him be relevant to camp a lane even if his ult is down, and his Q not only slows, but it produces substantially more damage than anything else in WW's kit.
If you increase the cost on Q, people are going to run a few regen blues and still pick him for the "lol, every thirty seconds my ult is up and there's a kill on the way" factor.
Guys I've been playing wriggles + wits end-->rageblade///Frozen heart+FoN style where I tend to just initiate but then stay back instead of diving squishies, but the style I've seen mostly is going FULL tank with like shurelyas+randuins+frozen heart. I know skarner has good base damage and CC which lets him get away with it but you think it's superior? I guess it depends on who the top is because If I'm needed to be that guy to deal with their AD carry then It's probably the best thing to go with. Maybe just a wits end for damage?
Also I think skarners mana costs are actually feeling pretty high in the jungle, maybe It's becauase I use level 1 E though. I generally find I want a mana item, sheen sometimes but almost always glacial. I think that his W movement boost lasts WAY too long though, considering how big it is it's like a free ghost. The uptime should rely more on hitting the target especially when this fucker already has a perma slow.
So, how are people finding our favourite scorpion post-nerf and with the new/remade items in the mix? I'm definitely finding mindless Q-spam harder when donating blues, and have moved away from Rageblade towards either Wit's End or Zeke's Herald (or both) as my post Philo/HoG/Merc item - a Kindlegem is a handy component to have on Skarner, and the aura's great for teamfights. Built Locket of the Iron Solari from my HoG once, but wasn't really able to get a feeling for how useful it was as the game was fairly much over at that point - nice to have an alternative to Randuin's from the HoG, considering I find Glacial Shroud/Frozen Heart core.
On January 13 2012 01:10 Slayer91 wrote: Guys I've been playing wriggles + wits end-->rageblade///Frozen heart+FoN style where I tend to just initiate but then stay back instead of diving squishies, but the style I've seen mostly is going FULL tank with like shurelyas+randuins+frozen heart. I know skarner has good base damage and CC which lets him get away with it but you think it's superior? I guess it depends on who the top is because If I'm needed to be that guy to deal with their AD carry then It's probably the best thing to go with. Maybe just a wits end for damage?
Also I think skarners mana costs are actually feeling pretty high in the jungle, maybe It's becauase I use level 1 E though. I generally find I want a mana item, sheen sometimes but almost always glacial. I think that his W movement boost lasts WAY too long though, considering how big it is it's like a free ghost. The uptime should rely more on hitting the target especially when this fucker already has a perma slow.
doesnt it depend mostly on the opposing ad carry's farm and the support champ?
Hey skarn is free this week so I've been playing him, but I'm finding the jungle a bit difficult doing a regrowth + pot -> philostone -> HoG opening.
I can't seem to get 365 gold before being forced to return home and/or die.
Does skarn need a strong leash for blue in the jungle? Do I need a different path? Right now I do blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> golems, and I can't quite kill the golems even using 2nd smite. Maybe I need a different opening?
On March 13 2012 04:53 BlasiuS wrote: Hey skarn is free this week so I've been playing him, but I'm finding the jungle a bit difficult doing a regrowth + pot -> philostone -> HoG opening.
I can't seem to get 365 gold before being forced to return home and/or die.
Does skarn need a strong leash for blue in the jungle? Do I need a different path? Right now I do blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> golems, and I can't quite kill the golems even using 2nd smite. Maybe I need a different opening?
what runes and masteries?
you should also be doing wolves -> blue -> wraiths -> wolves -> red -> wraiths with no trouble whatsoever.
On March 13 2012 04:53 BlasiuS wrote: Hey skarn is free this week so I've been playing him, but I'm finding the jungle a bit difficult doing a regrowth + pot -> philostone -> HoG opening.
I can't seem to get 365 gold before being forced to return home and/or die.
Does skarn need a strong leash for blue in the jungle? Do I need a different path? Right now I do blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> golems, and I can't quite kill the golems even using 2nd smite. Maybe I need a different opening?
what runes and masteries?
you should also be doing wolves -> blue -> wraiths -> wolves -> red -> wraiths with no trouble whatsoever.
On March 13 2012 04:53 BlasiuS wrote: Hey skarn is free this week so I've been playing him, but I'm finding the jungle a bit difficult doing a regrowth + pot -> philostone -> HoG opening.
I can't seem to get 365 gold before being forced to return home and/or die.
Does skarn need a strong leash for blue in the jungle? Do I need a different path? Right now I do blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> golems, and I can't quite kill the golems even using 2nd smite. Maybe I need a different opening?
what runes and masteries?
you should also be doing wolves -> blue -> wraiths -> wolves -> red -> wraiths with no trouble whatsoever.
Without runes I'd probably recommend opening cloth5 on junglers. Also I could be wrong, but maybe switch 2 points from vigor/util tree into indomitable. That mastery is probably the better option for increasing durability in jungle, moreso than even the armor masteries.
Just put it all in defense. Get the -2 minion damage, -2 damage, 6 damage on hit masteries and +6 armour and veteran scars if you can. They are the most important for junglers. Consider going cloth+5.
But if you don't have runes I would definitely open with cloth+5. You can't really open vamp scepter, regrowth+pot, or boots+3 without runes and masteries on a lot of junglers.
since skarner is falling off the ban-wagon (LOL GET IT) i've finally gotten to play him some more
here's my revised set-up and route
note: with the prevalence of stronger junglers and counterjunglers, i no longer try to counterjungle with skarner unless i'm 100% sure it's safe (i.e. see the enemy jungler ganking a lane opposite of where i am). and i NEVER try to invade. you must start blue, it's essential, not starting at your blue hurts you more than stealing enemy wraiths/red hurts them
0/21/9 emphasizing movespeed arpen quint, AS red, armor yellow, mr/level blue regrowth + 1 pot
wolves -> blue (smite) -> wraiths -> wolves -> red (smite, use health pot) -> wraiths -> gank if possible or golems -> gank -> wraiths -> wolves -> back assuming no successful ganks you will have approx 930 gold at this point, finish philo, boots 1, 2 pots, ward
ward for your top laner, wolves wraiths golems, blue will be up. blue + wolves will get you to 6. if you give blue to mid lane, half the exp from blue, wolves, wraiths will get you to 6
item core is philo, boots1, wriggles, boots2 of choice (nearly always mercs), wit's/glacial depending on enemy damage type, wit's/glacial, frozen heart, force of nature if needing tankiness/shurelia if needing initiate/sheen if needing damage, shurelia, triforce
the mana return from big creep sigils goes a long way. the only time i ever feel slightly oom is right before i hit 6 and try to gank, if i didn't take second blue. pay extra attention to mana at that time. i don't know why i moved away from rageblade or early sheen, but wit's just feels more natural now. aegis is a good filler item if you're behind.
Armour pen quints aren't that efficient as well, you might be able to improve your page by putting 10 armour pen marks and then rest in AS and AS quints.
Edit, just checked.
Wolves: 9/6/6 Blue 20/8/8 Wraiths: 15/5/5 Red 20/8/8 Golems 12/12
So 5 armour pen is the most efficient amount there.
Actually Armour quints seem to be similar efficiency to AS quints, maybe just AD quints super good.
3 arpen quints, full AS reds gives 10 arpen, 15% AS 3 AS quints, 3 AS reds, 6 arpen reds gives 10 arpen, 15% AS 3 AS quints, 3 AS reds, 4 arpen reds, 2 AD red gives 6.7 arpen, 15% AS, +1.9AD
:s
i really want the AS and some arpen, stop doing math! i don't know why this page works it just does!
i think 8.3 would be the minimum arpen i'd want, and at that point, the +0.95 AD really isn't that significant, is it? haha, idk, it just feels like an insanely small modification :c i suppose i could try it though
actually i guess you kill the small lizards at buffs through mostly incidental damage, you could probably get away with 6.7 arpen in reds.
Well, I actually just run AS and AD. His Q has an AD ratio and in the early levels I think AD outperforms arpen slightly in the first couple levels, maybe armorpen is a bit better later.
Also going for philo on skarner now, still want some damage items though unless we're super behind. wriggles is okay, thinking about wits or rageblade instead though. Not sure if I want both wriggles and wits, would be flamed by my teams too much xD.
On April 05 2012 06:44 Slayer91 wrote: Well, I actually just run AS and AD. His Q has an AD ratio and in the early levels I think AD outperforms arpen slightly in the first couple levels, maybe armorpen is a bit better later.
Also going for philo on skarner now, still want some damage items though unless we're super behind. wriggles is okay, thinking about wits or rageblade instead though. Not sure if I want both wriggles and wits, would be flamed by my teams too much xD.
i guess, now that i'm thinking about it, my logic is this: your early game speed is actually gated by your help at wolves, because the faster you kill wolves, the faster they respawn so you are waiting around for less time after wraiths. therefore, doing slightly more damage early just means you stand around more early. doing slightly less damage early doesn't really hurt you, but i feel like 10 arpen on ganks is much stronger than a little more AD. i would have to have suess or yango do all the heavy mathwork because i am LAZY and mostly rely on experience to tailor my runepages, not math
wit's i'm still only getting early against 2 AP or a magic damage jungler or heavy damage support. tbh it's pretty hard to get the stacks up during teamfights because you usually do something like flash -> ult -> W away -> Q, so you're not getting your stacks until after you've already exposed yourself to the enemy team.
i will eventually try rageblade on him again, but my main reason for rageblade 5 months ago was that skarner was bar-none the best dueler and fastest jungler in the game sans udyr. now that more people play champs that can wreck you 1v1 (shyvana, mundo, olaf come to mind), i shy away from running into enemy jungle to try to kill them.
my skarner build timeline has been: 1. razer, rageblade rush, tank 2. wriggles, sheen, tank, triforce 3. philo, sheen, tank, triforce 4. philo, HoG, tank + CDR 5. my build now
i've gone from very offensive builds to very defensive builds, and this one is somewhere nicely in-between, i feel.
Well, I used to do exactly your build without the philo, maybe I should stick with it.
I woulda thought rageblade was a teamfight thing. AP for heals/shielding/damage and AD for sick dps especailly with a wits not to mention CDR. Can sit at the back slowing some bruisers barely taking any damage from all the sustain and shielidng you have until an opportunity to dive in comes up. You need some armour/mr and levels in E to get to that stage, though.
gtr, what've your experiences been with Zeke's Herald (possibly in place of Wriggles+Wit's)? I guess pre-nerf Skarner still has me leery of getting Wriggles on him, and I find it hard to get/maintain Wit's stacks on him in teamfights if I'm expected to initiate - he can eat a lot of poke/burst in doing so. OTOH, Udyr has a similar run-up-to-people thing and he does fine with Wit's; could just be my perceptions.
Any reason why movespeed quints aren't being considered?
Vaguely wonder if it'd be worth rushing Reverie on him (ie Reverie + boots2 before branching out), just for the added mana regen+cdr/earlier HYPERSCORPION threat
On April 05 2012 18:28 Haasts wrote: gtr, what've your experiences been with Zeke's Herald (possibly in place of Wriggles+Wit's)? I guess pre-nerf Skarner still has me leery of getting Wriggles on him, and I find it hard to get/maintain Wit's stacks on him in teamfights if I'm expected to initiate - he can eat a lot of poke/burst in doing so. OTOH, Udyr has a similar run-up-to-people thing and he does fine with Wit's; could just be my perceptions.
Any reason why movespeed quints aren't being considered?
Vaguely wonder if it'd be worth rushing Reverie on him (ie Reverie + boots2 before branching out), just for the added mana regen+cdr/earlier HYPERSCORPION threat
movespeed quints are fine, they're just not for me. W puts you near or over the soft-cap for movespeed really easily, so your MS quints are devalued during the heat of combat. i do run 1 movespeed quint on WW and 3 on udyr, for what it's worth. just don't find them super necessary or better than arpen on skarner.
i really like zeke's on shyvana, but i haven't found it useful on skarner. i'll give it a couple runs and see, but shyvana gets so much free defense in dragon form that you can get away with building more HP-centric items. skarner, on the other hand, gets a ton of free HP from W, so you want to build more resists.
shurelia rush is perfectly legit on skarner, just not how i play him. it is totally acceptable and i've seen people do fine rushing it.
Yo guys, played 20some skarner games in ranked, it's only 1600 elo, but I'd like to share my thoughts/just write stuff. For picking skarner, his most valuable asset are awesome ganks past lvl 6, ability to duel anyone (-Olaf) after aquiring his first attack speed item (exception being a few guys with redbuff) and his mobility that allows him to push farther than most and be bolder than most - though not nidalee level it is still very good.
I do not think him to be a good initiator, not only because when enemy team has stun of any kind you aren't gonna drag anyone anywhere, but also because very often AD carry is the ONLY viable target - more than half the AP carries enjoy being in the middle of your team (Kennen, Morgana, Galio, Vlad to a lesser extent). Ryze, Cassiopea and Veigar of course don't enjoy this, but in ideal level of play, that should be a non-factor, as jungle should usually be 1st-3rd pick, while AP carry a 4th-5th pick. Not only that, but AD carries enjoy building QSS whether you have skarner on your team or not.
His role in a teamfight is in my opinion very clear. Protect the AD carry by slowing the divers, damaging them severely and also dragging them away (does not apply to Olaf IIRC). You do not have enough innate survivability to be able to dive, your movement speed and damage buff relies on not being hit, and for the reasons already mentioned you can't just drag their AD carry as you please.
Afterwards he is exceptionally good at cleanup, being the superb duelist he is. Or he can run away, his movement speed buff is good enough to be able to do that.
I would not rate him as exceptional teamfighter, but he is adequate given his ganking and jungle-farming abilities.
For runes, I don't see the reasoning for ArPen - more than half his damage is magic (Q+R). I use attack speed Reds and Armor Yellows for obvious reasons, AP/lvl Blues for his sick AP ratios and Mspe quints for no particular reason except I like them. Masteries obviously 0/21/9, item build I usually do that standard Philo+Wit's end -> tank, Wit's just adds so much DPS that it is almost too good to pass up.
New build I am experimenting with though, is Nashor's tooth right after Philo, reason being that it completely solves his mana problems, CDR+AtkSpe are the 2 stats skarner scales the best with and he has sick AP ratios to boot. I especially like this build when someone else on my team builds Frozen Heart, feels like a waste to have 2 of them. Thoughts on that?
Been having fun with Regrowth > boots > philo > heart of gold, then depends on farm and what is needed. Usually pick up shurelya's and Sheen next. Finish Trinity if have monies otherwise I work on Raduins, Warmogs. All depends what I am up against.
AS, Armor, MR/Lv.
In the past I have done a more wriggles, sheen into gunblade, but I find more and more having that speed and defense does more good for his role in jungle. Sure I could kill things faster but if my team is behind I am a lot less useful.
Flash Ult to initiate and Ulting as they Flash are my two favorite things to happen.
On April 05 2012 07:18 Slayer91 wrote: Well, I used to do exactly your build without the philo, maybe I should stick with it.
I woulda thought rageblade was a teamfight thing. AP for heals/shielding/damage and AD for sick dps especailly with a wits not to mention CDR. Can sit at the back slowing some bruisers barely taking any damage from all the sustain and shielidng you have until an opportunity to dive in comes up. You need some armour/mr and levels in E to get to that stage, though.
slayer i've had the chance to do some testing the 2 AD from swapping around the runes does nothing for your speed or damage early, but does make taking red *slightly* slower. i think i'm gonna stick with the 10 arpen
edit: in fact, i have not won with skarner since the switch >
On April 06 2012 03:01 Scip wrote: For runes, I don't see the reasoning for ArPen - more than half his damage is magic (Q+R). I use attack speed Reds and Armor Yellows for obvious reasons, AP/lvl Blues for his sick AP ratios and Mspe quints for no particular reason except I like them. Masteries obviously 0/21/9, item build I usually do that standard Philo+Wit's end -> tank, Wit's just adds so much DPS that it is almost too good to pass up.
New build I am experimenting with though, is Nashor's tooth right after Philo, reason being that it completely solves his mana problems, CDR+AtkSpe are the 2 stats skarner scales the best with and he has sick AP ratios to boot. I especially like this build when someone else on my team builds Frozen Heart, feels like a waste to have 2 of them. Thoughts on that?
R might as well not do damage, and Q is half-physical damage. i would not run ap/level blues simply because mr/level blues are more cost-efficient and you get more bang for your buck on resists because of his W hp-shield than you do on the slight AP ratio on Q.
why is nashor's tooth a bad item? i've never bought it on skarner, but my understanding is that it is actually rather cost efficient on on champs that use the cdr/mp5 and scale with as/ap.
They need to do something about his mana problems. Unless I hog blue, I really can't play him, even after I build Sheen/Trinity which gives extra mana.
On March 13 2012 04:53 BlasiuS wrote: Hey skarn is free this week so I've been playing him, but I'm finding the jungle a bit difficult doing a regrowth + pot -> philostone -> HoG opening.
I can't seem to get 365 gold before being forced to return home and/or die.
Does skarn need a strong leash for blue in the jungle? Do I need a different path? Right now I do blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> golems, and I can't quite kill the golems even using 2nd smite. Maybe I need a different opening?
what runes and masteries?
you should also be doing wolves -> blue -> wraiths -> wolves -> red -> wraiths with no trouble whatsoever.
On March 13 2012 04:53 BlasiuS wrote: Hey skarn is free this week so I've been playing him, but I'm finding the jungle a bit difficult doing a regrowth + pot -> philostone -> HoG opening.
I can't seem to get 365 gold before being forced to return home and/or die.
Does skarn need a strong leash for blue in the jungle? Do I need a different path? Right now I do blue -> wolves -> wraiths -> golems, and I can't quite kill the golems even using 2nd smite. Maybe I need a different opening?
what runes and masteries?
you should also be doing wolves -> blue -> wraiths -> wolves -> red -> wraiths with no trouble whatsoever.
No golems?
Nope. It's so much more effective to do that route, since golems will hurt you much more and take longer time to take down, due to your q only hitting 2 targets instead of 3 or 4 with wolves or wraiths respectively.
On April 08 2012 04:48 chalice wrote: why is nashor's tooth a bad item? i've never bought it on skarner, but my understanding is that it is actually rather cost efficient on on champs that use the cdr/mp5 and scale with as/ap.
Most people get shurelya's and frozen heart on skarner. That + enlightenment puts you over 40% cdr. And shurelya's + sheen is usually enough mana
I suppose if you don't need to get armor (and so you don't get frozen heart) it could be a good AS item, but if you need AS I would think wit's end is much better since he builds tanky.
One good thing is that skarner makes excellent use of Stinger which only costs 1k.
Frozen heart is so good for teamfights though. It solves all of his mana problems, gives him CDR, is great against AD champs, and gives huge armor boost. It would be tough to give it up. Plus Glacial Shroud is an excellent intermediate item.
edit: and of course Shurelya's is basically core on Skarner; he needs the early philo stone, and the active on Shurelya's is essential both for your team and for making plays with your ultimate, so skipping shurelya's isn't really an option.
On May 24 2012 09:44 GhostOwl wrote: They need to do something about his mana problems. Unless I hog blue, I really can't play him, even after I build Sheen/Trinity which gives extra mana.
Add in glacial shroud, that + sheen should take care of your mana issues for good.
-you should probably add a section on mana mangement. Like, do you spam Q on every camp? Do you also use shield on every camp? Skarner is one of the most mana-hungry champs in the game, and he's definitely THE most mana-hungry jungler. These are issues that new skarner players always have.
-How do you charge up your Q before a gank? The charge only lasts for a few seconds, and I've never been able to hit something, then get within melee range of the opponent fast enough to use Q again during a gank. The only thing I can see is if there's an enemy minion between the bush and your opponent that you can hit on the way during your gank. If that's what you meant, you should probably make it a bit more clear.
-You say in your guide to not rush tri-force, what about rushing sheen, then not upgrading it to tri-force until your 6th item? Sheen is great for skarner since he can almost always proc the passive immediately on cooldown. But even moreso, it gives more mana, which is one of the things skarner needs most. The ability power is more of just a bonus, however it does help all 4 of his abilities in some way.
-There has been some debate about getting E early, and waiting until level 13. It's clear you favor waiting until level 13, but it would be nice to address the counter-arguments. Basically they are: the first jungle clear is the most important, and lvl 1 shield does almost nothing for skarner's first clear. It basically lasts two hits (one hit from buff monsters), so it doesn't help his sustain or his clear speed. Meanwhile E speeds up the clear AND lets you clear it with high health, which is important for your early ganks.
-you should probably add a section on mana mangement. Like, do you spam Q on every camp? Do you also use shield on every camp? Skarner is one of the most mana-hungry champs in the game, and he's definitely THE most mana-hungry jungler. These are issues that new skarner players always have.
-How do you charge up your Q before a gank? The charge only lasts for a few seconds, and I've never been able to hit something, then get within melee range of the opponent fast enough to use Q again during a gank. The only thing I can see is if there's an enemy minion between the bush and your opponent that you can hit on the way during your gank. If that's what you meant, you should probably make it a bit more clear.
-You say in your guide to not rush tri-force, what about rushing sheen, then not upgrading it to tri-force until your 6th item? Sheen is great for skarner since he can almost always proc the passive immediately on cooldown. But even moreso, it gives more mana, which is one of the things skarner needs most. The ability power is more of just a bonus, however it does help all 4 of his abilities in some way.
-There has been some debate about getting E early, and waiting until level 13. It's clear you favor waiting until level 13, but it would be nice to address the counter-arguments. Basically they are: the first jungle clear is the most important, and lvl 1 shield does almost nothing for skarner's first clear. It basically lasts two hits (one hit from buff monsters), so it doesn't help his sustain or his clear speed. Meanwhile E speeds up the clear AND lets you clear it with high health, which is important for your early ganks.
good ideas, i'll definitely update the guide with this stuff at some point soon. in the mean time..
-spam q on every camp all the time. spamming w you should usually do but it really depends on how long you plan on staying in the jungle. by not using w you slow your clear speed and you take more damage in favor of mana. it just takes a bit of practice to know when you can spam w but as a general rule if you have excess mana but low health spam w, if you have low mana but a lot of hp don't use w and clear with just q and autos. there are lots of exceptions though, like if you plan on ganking a lane soon you'll need a certain amount of mana but you'll need a varying amount of health depending on the enemy laner, your laner's cc, etc. like i said it just takes awhile to know when to use it.
-sometimes it's worth it to even go out of position to q a creep, then run at the lane enemy. sometimes i even auto the creep once after q ing it so i can get the cd to reset faster, then by the time i've reached the enemy i can just auto them once and the charged q is ready. i'll make a video on this soon and add it to the guide.
-basically there's just always something more useful you can get. you'll almost always be going glacial shroud and shurelia's, with those two items you'll never go oom. in terms of the damage you can get a recurve bow for similar price and although sheen has more damage flat out, attack speed offers far more utility AND it builds into something better than you can buy earlier. think about why you wouldn't build sheen on phoenix udyr, in theory it would synergize with him the same ways but there's just always something you need more. that being said it can still be good for snowballing but it's risky.
-first of all if you learn e at level 3 or 4 and you're spamming it and your other spells you'll run out of mana clearing the jungle with blue buff, so you basically don't even have it for awhile. in terms of sustain think of it this way. w offers two things in terms of clearing, the shield and attack speed. level 1 shield is 70, level 2 shield is 115 so you end up mitigating 45 damage. level 1 e, assuming you hit three targets, will heal for about 50 so you basically end up getting the same amount of sustain overall, the only difference being having w up longer and the attack speed steroid better means you will get the shield itself up faster. and that's not even taking the extra move speed into consideration which is very good for early ganks (it also makes early ganks better because you get more slows off with level 2 w, whereas using e while ganking at lvl 3/4 is usually a waste of animation time where you should be just moving in between autos).
Made a guide where I explain: Why I am awesome Why I am MORE awesome than Skarnold How does it all come down to Mana Pots Why am I so good at writing things and finally Why am I so full of myself http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=33958 And also why I overhype that guide
this question has been bothering me for a while now, do you smartcast skarner's ult? I'm pretty sure not doing it has made me miss out on 3-4 kills yesterday alone but might be just bad.
On August 28 2012 01:17 zulu_nation8 wrote: this question has been bothering me for a while now, do you smartcast skarner's ult? I'm pretty sure not doing it has made me miss out on 3-4 kills yesterday alone but might be just bad.
I smartcast everything ever. I just feel so clunky doing a normal cast anymore.
On August 28 2012 01:17 zulu_nation8 wrote: this question has been bothering me for a while now, do you smartcast skarner's ult? I'm pretty sure not doing it has made me miss out on 3-4 kills yesterday alone but might be just bad.
Yes, you should smartcast absolutely everything including Veigar stun, Ashe arrow and Trundle pillar. If you play a champion about 5 times you should have enough experience to have decent accuracy, and any loss in that is far outweighted by the speed with which you can cast things.
On whether to smartcast or dumbcast my philosophy is that if it's a point and click such as ryze/annie Q, skarner ulti etc, always smartcast. For skillshots it's personal preference. Smartcasting is theoretically better but I've grown to love the precision offered by dumbcasting things like leona's zenith blade since if the only thing you have to do is click, it's really easy to hit something.
You don't have to smartcast. There are plenty of top tier players that don't use smartcast ever. I personally think it's completely champion and skill design dependent. Like for Ryze you would obviously use smartcast, and same with Cass' E. Smash keeps Pantheon Q on smartcast but he seems to always keep E and R on normal, and when he does need to smartcast E he uses ~. Froggen never uses smartcast, and in an interview he once said he just doesn't like it. Dyrus for a while didn't use smartcast at all either.
Manamune is obviously a core item on Skarner. I reccomend starting boots+3 as usual, get Tear of Goddess on your first back. Do NOT buy any mana pots, they aren't necessary. I reccomend getting Mercs before finishing Manamune, because Manamune without well-charged Tear is kind of a waste. I would reccomend going Glacial OR Shurelyas right after; you aim to maximize your DEEPS and after you get solid amount of AD you do that with CDR. + Show Spoiler +
If you are grinding rankeds on your 1200 elo smurf, that is.
skarner is so versatile that i've rushed mbr on him and crushed it's like, come at me bro, i do %-max health damage AND have infinite cc it's really the answer to all his problems
On September 11 2012 13:24 gtrsrs wrote: skarner is so versatile that i've rushed mbr on him and crushed it's like, come at me bro, i do %-max health damage AND have infinite cc it's really the answer to all his problems
True, since I started playing Skarner I'm having trouble forcing myself to use any other jungler (except Udyr, I can always play Udyr :D ) as he is just so good at everything (except his mana costs, but that can be solved by using a hybrid mastery page like Skarnold's or having a manaless/non-blue hungry mid so you can hog the buff all the time)
On September 05 2012 15:50 koreasilver wrote: You don't have to smartcast. There are plenty of top tier players that don't use smartcast ever. I personally think it's completely champion and skill design dependent. Like for Ryze you would obviously use smartcast, and same with Cass' E. Smash keeps Pantheon Q on smartcast but he seems to always keep E and R on normal, and when he does need to smartcast E he uses ~. Froggen never uses smartcast, and in an interview he once said he just doesn't like it. Dyrus for a while didn't use smartcast at all either.
I tend to just smartcast everything but turn on the smartcast range indicator so that if I'm not 100% sure at a given moment I can just hold down the button, get the range and then let go of it. I'm surprised I don't see more people doing this, it gives you the option to cast quickly if you're comfortable to at that moment or to take your time should you need to.
All my Skarner games from 2k up including some games in the highest elo bracket, wins and losses included. I can answer any questions regarding specific games. 15 games total. The pack includes a 3-4 games straight series vs rainbow thugs.
On September 05 2012 15:50 koreasilver wrote: You don't have to smartcast. There are plenty of top tier players that don't use smartcast ever. I personally think it's completely champion and skill design dependent. Like for Ryze you would obviously use smartcast, and same with Cass' E. Smash keeps Pantheon Q on smartcast but he seems to always keep E and R on normal, and when he does need to smartcast E he uses ~. Froggen never uses smartcast, and in an interview he once said he just doesn't like it. Dyrus for a while didn't use smartcast at all either.
I tend to just smartcast everything but turn on the smartcast range indicator so that if I'm not 100% sure at a given moment I can just hold down the button, get the range and then let go of it. I'm surprised I don't see more people doing this, it gives you the option to cast quickly if you're comfortable to at that moment or to take your time should you need to.
Or maybe I'm just bad ;(
I agree with this. I just turned on smartcast last week (previously used to shift-smartcast, which is clunkier). The range indicators are very important to me and you can always cancel by just moving. With the option to see range indicator I don't see the reason to ever not smartcast.
The question is do you use smartcast+selfcast (i.e. if you press E on morgana it automatically shields yourself, unless you have your cursor over an ally). It's very nice for people with less than godlike reaction speed.
Smartcast certainly isn't necessary for Skarner though.
Just posting it here as a reminder. Things that need to be tested: Skarner ultimate vs. Flash and all jumps, (jax, irelia, lee sin, shyvana, everything) Skarner ultimate vs. repositioning skills (janna, blitzcrank, alistar, everything) 1 level in E early jungle 1 level in W 2nd max E jungle
Things that need to be theorycrafted: Item build changes? I think not but maybe. CDR is going to be less valuable we know that much. When to pick Skarner? Does he still have a niche or is he completely outclassed. New counterpicks and best teammates.
ult will hardly be able to interrupt skills cuz it'll stop casting as soon as they get out of range, so there's an extremely short window of time for skills like corki w for them to be pulled out of it but 99% of the time it'll just cancel. also it will never happen for flash or other instant repositioning skills.
only viable build will be pure tank/damage absorption (aegis+randuin/FoN) to compensate for the lost tankiness from w cd (this goes for competitive play, you can still go triforce gunblade or my normal build at 1200 elo). shurelia's rush probably not as good since pure tank stats more important than utility, also more risky to initiate with shurelia's because of ult change -.-
getting e might be worth it but i don't think so because then your already nerfed w will be even shittier. i doubt making a shittier spell shittier in exchange for another shitty spell is the right option.
Serious question: Do you really think that Skarner is unplayable now? Or is it just an emotional outburst cuz your beloved scorpion got nerfed?
I'd really like to pick up Skarner. Played him when he was free2play the last time and doing so again at the moment. Now I'm close to have enough IP to get him. I have a lot of fun and feel that i can carry my teams with him. The patch isn't live on EU yet so I guess I have to wait and find out if there's any significant difference for me tomorrow.
4 seconds on W isn't even that much if you hit shit. So it's up 90% of the time rather than 100% of the time, that still makes it one of the better defensive abilities in the game.
Skarner has been retardedly strong since forever. Don't know about after the new patch but the changes make a lot of sense. The perma chase and ult despite the enemy flashing etc. were broken.
random question, I started playing skarner recently and went boots pots as I do with all my other junglers, it seems to work ok, but most guides and games I see skarners starting cloth+5. Am I just at a level where I'm not being punished or is boots a viable choice for skarner?
On October 26 2012 07:09 Thereisnosaurus wrote: random question, I started playing skarner recently and went boots pots as I do with all my other junglers, it seems to work ok, but most guides and games I see skarners starting cloth+5. Am I just at a level where I'm not being punished or is boots a viable choice for skarner?
I don't think I've seen a guide recommend starting Cloth5, as it's completely unnecessary. I usually go Boots3pot and do just fine.
Another good opener if you're just gonna farm jungle for a bit is Regrowth1pot. Don't think I would ever go cloth5 though.
Edit: Then again I'm bad as shit. Only Gold. So take it with a grain of salt.
It allows you to stay in jungle longer and look for more opportunities to gank/jungle without recalling Safer too, if you are against like a strong jungler and you chose a weak one.
But yeah, most I go boots 3 pots, only jungler I go cloth 5 is like Rammus, and he isn't that good :<
skarner isn't unplayable but every champion is playable in solo queue, skarner won't be a competitive pick anymore and it's gonna be a bit harder to make him work at 2400 elo also cloth start sucks balls
I really really don't reccomend starting Regrowth Pendant, I know Skarnold's Guide reccomends it but 1. Your ganks become even worse, they actually aren't that bad against pushed lanes if you have boots but they are if you have regrowth 2. They slow down your exp gain a bit, you waste less gold on HP pots but since you can travel between camps faster with boots you'll get more exp which is really important on Skarner especially before lvl6.
After getting really frustrated with jungle-udyr lately, i figured i'll try something new. So, Skarner, first game ever, ranked. This is so easy. Having only 2 skills and an ult really helps with the learning of the champ. Being so goddamn tanky helps as well. Having a team of derps helps as well, if you need to do good to win, you likely will do that. Or fail. or just play meh. But really one of those 3. whatever, i get derailed. I finished 1/2/20 and basically carried them from midgame on, surviving everything, altough all lanes had fed due to my low early game presence. And their fails of course. Only their fails, fucking feeders. Elo hell, lololololol-
So, i figured a lot of my "power" came from them just fearing a big bad scorpion, they didn't want to engage on me, but they did want to engage on anybody else. I never did get to duel anyone, as, somehow, they feared me despite not having build anything resembling damage (shurelyas first). How good does Skarner actually duel? I mean, i have 1294000 effective hp, but, can i really get into fights early on, say level 4-5? With stuff like udyr or other high-tier duelers?
People are afraid for good reason - there aren't many champions in the game that can go toe-to-toe with red-buff Skarner before they get their ults. Not only that, he's impossible to run away from and can double-Q + W to escape from almost anything. His clear speed in the jungle should give you an idea of how much sustained damage he does (i.e. same category as Udyr/Mundo/Shyvana) while having a stronger shield and one of the highest base attacks in the game. Skarner is a terror from level 2 until the rest of the game, even with 0 damage items.
Skarner has a weaker pre-6 gank than Udyr, but is one of the best 2v2 junglers in the game. So combined with your fast clear speed and fast MS, he's very good for counterganking. It's also extremely dangerous to invade Skarner's jungle due to his perma-slow.
The only thing I dislike about him is controlling that his attack-move doesn't feel very smooth, which is important for a melee champ.
Thing I am experimenting with: Maxing E second after 1 point in W, because 18 CD is just completely ridiculous. I still rush shurelyas for the mana BUT I build chalice of harmony afterwards. Because you have +15 manaregen from Shurelyas and 7.5 manaregen from chalice itself, that's a lot of friggin mana regen. That makes FH build path very very awkward, so Aegis is the natural choice after chalice BUT Athene's Unholy Grail provides CDR and quite a bit of damage. Might be a legit item to build on Skarner. So far did it in 1 game and it worked wonders, but the enemy teamcomp wasn't very good. Also, possibly Rageblade instead of Wit's End for an eventual damage item? Rageblade was already a lot better damage wise but if you spam your E Ability Power is just that much more powerful. Especially the heal, omg is 0.3 great or what.
rageblade is fine if you have someone to tank damage for you in teamfights and you can just go ham with no one raping your shit.
also i buy ionic spark on a ton of heroes but i never tried it on skarner, idk sounds decent i'd rather have more sustained dmg with wits end though as apposed to someone like tf who i'd want more burst on. also wits has magic resist which is better than health since you already have built in bonus health but not magic resist especially since you're forced to build some health anyway between shurelias and randuins.
Lol, I don't know about the upcoming jungle but if you have to go cloth 5 in this current one on a champion that champ probably shouldn't be jungling in the first place.
so season 3 is gonna bring back rageblade skarner right? don't really like it costing 365g more, but lifesteal, spellvamp and attack speed under 50% hp with his shield and the resists you build has his name written all over it imo.
It will be hard to get all the items that have Skarner written all over them. Frozen Fist anyone?
Does anyone know how Skarner does in the new jungle? I've recently bought him and he's the champion I feel most comfortbale playing with by a landslide. I hope he will still be able to do well.
I didnt imagine that the changes to his ult will screw me over that hard btw. I don't mind that champs who get out of sight escape the ult but whenever I hear the full sound of the Skarner ult I expect it to be succesful. I had two occasions recently that I ulted someone who escaped into a brush /over a wall but I heard the sound and was totally confused what just happened for the next two seconds. Have to get used to it and not use to it I guess.
On November 14 2012 12:18 Scip wrote: Thing I am experimenting with: Maxing E second after 1 point in W, because 18 CD is just completely ridiculous. I still rush shurelyas for the mana BUT I build chalice of harmony afterwards. Because you have +15 manaregen from Shurelyas and 7.5 manaregen from chalice itself, that's a lot of friggin mana regen. That makes FH build path very very awkward, so Aegis is the natural choice after chalice BUT Athene's Unholy Grail provides CDR and quite a bit of damage. Might be a legit item to build on Skarner. So far did it in 1 game and it worked wonders, but the enemy teamcomp wasn't very good. Also, possibly Rageblade instead of Wit's End for an eventual damage item? Rageblade was already a lot better damage wise but if you spam your E Ability Power is just that much more powerful. Especially the heal, omg is 0.3 great or what.
Would that work? It feels awfully awkward to max a self-heal spell second.
I am pretty content with maxing E first, not sure on the item build yet. The difference between maxing W and E is that max W you move faster in jungle and clearing jungle is either a biit faster or it conserves a bit of mana. Max E is slower inside jungle but it is way stronger in combat. Max W is maybe a bit better for ganking but really you usually use it to run in just as you come into vision and then it breaks just as you close in on the target, so the main difference there really is 2% movement speed per level which is kinda negligeble, especially since you should hit the hard-ish movement speed cap by then IIRC. But yeah, W is trash in fights now.
On November 21 2012 17:21 chalice wrote: what good is frozen fist when you're already spamming an aoe slow every few seconds?
1) It's a tank upgrade from Sheen, and cheaper overall than Triforce by a long shot. It's a tank damage item that benefits him greatly.
2) You need to Q twice to get the slow off. Short of hitting some minions on your way to the champ (which even then is pretty hard to do consistently), the initial slow is pretty hard to apply. Iceborne Gauntlet (the new name, apparently) lets you run in with W and slow them before even hitting Q, which will be great for ganks.
You love Sheen, you love Glacial, you love being able to slow things instantly rather than waiting for the Q charge. It's a good item.
On November 21 2012 17:21 chalice wrote: what good is frozen fist when you're already spamming an aoe slow every few seconds?
1) It's a tank upgrade from Sheen, and cheaper overall than Triforce by a long shot. It's a tank damage item that benefits him greatly.
2) You need to Q twice to get the slow off. Short of hitting some minions on your way to the champ (which even then is pretty hard to do consistently), the initial slow is pretty hard to apply. Iceborne Gauntlet (the new name, apparently) lets you run in with W and slow them before even hitting Q, which will be great for ganks.
You love Sheen, you love Glacial, you love being able to slow things instantly rather than waiting for the Q charge. It's a good item.
Thing is, at what point would you build Triforce on Skarner. Yes, it's great, but he needs to be tanky. I cannot recall a professional level game where someone has chosen Triforce over things like Frozen Heart, Randuins, and all of those type of tanky items.
Also, someone said above about maxing E before W. I can't really comment because i haven't tried it, and I must admit, the heal is amazing in fights late game. However, leveling W affects your cd of it much more than you realize. It lowers cd anyway, it gives you more attack speed (which is significant) which with your passive lowers it even more. Plus, 260 shield every 4-5 seconds in a team fight is a lot more than you think. Also, if you think about it, when you're shielded, even 1 heal point will heal more (technically) because the shield will block out damage to your health entirely. Plus like you said, W is better for mobility and ganks in general.
^^ That's all great and stuff, except that leveling W doesn't actually reduce it's cooldown. But I agree that IF it did then I would max it 2nd too. W = 18 second cooldown at all levels E = 10 second cooldown at all levels
Sheen has always been the single best damage item on Skarner (followed by Wit's, I think), because he has the highest base damage in the game and spammable abilities. It's like it's made for him.
The issue with Sheen is that, while it gives you fucking absurd damage and one of the strongest dueling potentials in the entire game, one of three things happen when you buy it: 1) You upgrade it to TF. This gives a bit of Health, MS, and AS, which you like, but the rest of the stats are kind of meh. This is also really, really expensive and only viable if you get fed.
2) You never upgrade it and it takes up a slot. While it gives you damage, now you're just wasting a slot for the proc since the AP and Mana are mostly negligible after a certain point. This isn't really efficient at all if your game goes long, but is usually fine if you end it early.
3) Lichbane.
Now, you can keep the proc (and get the better, 150% base AD version of it over Sheen's 100%), but also get tanky stats in that slot (especially since you're going to be buying Glacial in most games anyway) and the extra slow. This is a straight buff to any bruiser/tank/whatever that builds Sheen but can't afford/doesn't need Triforce.
I perhaps won't rush it (Randuin's/Wit's/GA/etc being higher priority for survival), but at least it won't just sit as a Sheen until I'm rich enough to afford TF. If you end up filling more of a damage role for your team (like Shen/Malph top with low damages) and you need armor as well, this is probably the best item in the game.
On November 22 2012 00:05 Scip wrote: ^^ That's all great and stuff, except that leveling W doesn't actually reduce it's cooldown. But I agree that IF it did then I would max it 2nd too. W = 18 second cooldown at all levels E = 10 second cooldown at all levels
In a sense it sort of does, since more shield (so up longer) and faster AS = more autos = shorter cooldown.
But you're probably going to want to be upgrading the Glacial Shroud into a Frozen Heart and not a Frozen Fist (I assume you didn't mean to say Lichbane then proceed to talk about Frozen Fist) - you use the additional features FH gives you (AS slow, better CDR, better armor) you don't use any of the additional features FF gives you (aoe slow, which you already have, marginal improvement on sheen proc, no improved CDR over glacial) and the FF is more expensive.
Frozen Heart is one of Skarner's best core items currently (along with shurelia) and honestly, you make NO usage out of the "extra slow." You end up adding 10% or so to your current slow, and it has a shorter duration.
I'd much rather sit on the sheen (if I bought it in the first place) - if I bought it AT ALL - until 5th/6th item Triforce. Besides - you vastly underplay which parts of Triforce are useful for skarner. All of them are perfectly useful for Skarner except like... crit, and phageproc... (AD, AP, AS, MS, HP, Mana, Improved sheen are all great.)
On rageblade - I've built this item before in games where I got fed early/mid, and it's pretty boss. You can easily have all 8 stacks up before any fight, giving you a lot of damage/AS and 100 AP to power both your Qspam and your shield strength. It's a bigger AoE threat and more damage than Wit's End, but without the MR.
I'm not saying Triforce is bad on him. It's great if you're getting fed or the game goes 50+ minutes. But Iceborne Gauntlet allows you to have another Armor/CDR item in your inventory while keeping the Sheen proc, so I think it really depends on how the game is going. I would never say Iceborne over TF 100% of the time, nor would I say the other way around. It's just a good option.
That's what I was trying to get across as well. You're going to CDR cap off of masteries + Shurelia + FH, and upgrading Glacial to FH is more important of an upgrade to skarner than upgrading the sheen is. This seems even more true with the new FH, which also has a warden's mail component to it. Unless jungler roles change to the point that Skarner is building a lot more offense vs. defense than current, upgrading the Sheen is not a top priority for him (I don't even find myself building it every game, especially when it's far from the only offensive option.)
And once you already have FH+Shurelia, I think I can confidently say TF>Iceborn 100% of the time.
On November 22 2012 00:05 Scip wrote: ^^ That's all great and stuff, except that leveling W doesn't actually reduce it's cooldown. But I agree that IF it did then I would max it 2nd too. W = 18 second cooldown at all levels E = 10 second cooldown at all levels
Greater attackspeed on skarner translates to lower cooldown. Also greater uptime on the shield (because it doesn't break easily) means you have that greater attackspeed for a longer period of time, which continues to translate to lower cooldown. The shield STRENGTH is really one of the big reasons leveling it is so effective - keeping your big steroid for a longer period of time is important.
On November 22 2012 04:29 sylverfyre wrote: Greater attackspeed on skarner translates to lower cooldown. Also greater uptime on the shield (because it doesn't break easily) means you have that greater attackspeed for a longer period of time, which continues to translate to lower cooldown. The shield STRENGTH is really one of the big reasons leveling it is so effective - keeping your big steroid for a longer period of time is important.
On November 21 2012 23:59 LOLItsRyann wrote: ...However, leveling W affects your cd of it much more than you realize. It lowers cd anyway, it gives you more attack speed ...
So that's the part I responded to.
What it sounded like to me was that: It lowers its cooldown AND the increased attack speed means less cooldown. Which I deduced from the sentence "leveling W affects your cd of it much more than you realize", implying that I realize at least one factor that reduces W's cooldown, but not all of them. Given that there are 2 total factors that are so intertwined (+attack speed bonus and strength of the shield) I assumed he meant the actual cooldown of the spell. Which I thought to be further confirmed with the sentence "It lowers cd anyway, it gives you more attack speed (which is significant) which with your passive lowers it even more." The "even more" at the end says that there are other cooldown decreases separate from the attack speed increase, which could be the shield's strength, but since the shield strength to cooldown reduction relation was never explicitly mentioned in the post, despite shield strength being mentioned later, I dared to assume he thought that leveling W decreases the cooldown. Apologies to LOLItsRyann for making him a victim of semantics discussion.
I really like Q>E>Q>W or Q>E>W>Q for opening on Skarner now. The shield CD nerf is huge at the early levels because you don't have enough base AS growth or base armor growth to make the shield last long enough that you can get near constant refreshes.
I don't get great leashes at my elo, so doing Blue->Wolves->Wraiths->Wolves->Red->Wraiths leaves me at <1/2 HP even if I'm very diligent about managing CDs to maxing shield uptake, whereas before I'd be at almost full HP burning just 2 HP pots.
Just played a game with E 2nd and I flew through the jungle clear. The heal is much less than the maximum damage shielded, but the upfront damage lets you clear much faster and the CD comes up more often, especially since your shield gets broken. Plus the biggest thing is mass heal off small camps so that while you have perhaps less eHP/s vs big camps (haven't checked the math) you end up with more HP to start the clear with.
Not sure about E max vs W max after, since in terms of jungle clear there are like 0 issues after first clear since its mostly Q that does all the work.
Edit: math
Assuming lvl 3 and vs Red buff with +13 AR and +15% AS and blue buff Old W: effective CD 4.7s, raw HP/s 14.6 Cur E: effective CD 3.1s, raw HP/s 19.2 Cur W: effective CD 6.6s, raw HP/s 10.6
Lvl 2 and vs any of the small camps, E outperforms (both new and old) by far since you can heal off multiple creeps. The lower damage incoming and thus increased uptime of W doesn't make up for it.
Vs small camps, the bonus AS from W will usually allow you ~1 extra AA which evens out with the upfront damage of E. Since that also reduces CD from Q, W 2nd may outperform E 2nd in terms of raw DPS vs small camps by very little (but W vs no W is a difference of .9 vs .7 total AS, plus the bulk of Q CDR comes from blue buff)
Vs large camps, old W gives you more dps than E, but new W is about par, while old W gave you approximately the same eHP, new W is way worse than E
So old W was justified in maxing 2nd for MS boost and shield strength, but with new W, shield strength is no longer roughly on par with E for jungle clears, definitely not on par with E for fights, and so primary purpose for maxing would be the MS bonus
On December 01 2012 16:20 Craton wrote: Why are you doing wolves after blue?
On December 01 2012 03:31 xes wrote: ...I don't get great leashes at my elo, so doing Blue->Wolves->Wraiths->Wolves->Red->Wraiths
Probably this, doing wolves after blue is slower, but with a bad pull it leaves you with quite a lot more hp. It's interesting, you do Red Buff faster with QE than with QW by 4-5 seconds (travel time from blue -> red factored in ofc). The problem is that you really want that lvl2Q for increased damage and also increased slow (!!) and you really want lvl1 W for a gank, so leveling E second is probably only a good idea if you aren't going to be active at all until lvl4. That doesn't happen often at all but still, a good thing to know if you are purple side and enemy toplane is Elise and midlane is Morgana. :3
Shurelya gut nerfed a little but still feels like a must-buy on Skarner. I'd have no problem rushing Philostone but if you start Machete you want to build it into Spirit Stone (which is exactly like Philo) -> Ancient Golem, am I right? So you end up with a ton of regen stuff but are relatively week at fighting.
Ancient Golem gives you Tenacity too, but does it stack with Merc Treads? If not, there is no way to get MR from but Aegis.
I wonder if you can get away w/o Machete ... Havent tried yet
What I've been doing so far: Machete -> Boots1 -> Chalice of Harmony -> Locket of the Iron Solari -> Boots2 -> Mikael's Crucible The idea is, all mana items suck and are too expensive (including the items that build out of Machete) so you just go and build Chalice for infinite mana (as long as you don't level up E - wouldn't actually reccomend it anymore). Then you go Locket for the superawesomeness and strenght, by the time you start leveling your E up you should have just enough gold to buy Mikael's. Mikael's is an AAAAAWESOME item. It's like Cleanse and Shield at the same time except it has only 3 minute cooldown and you can use it on a teammate. Like, wow. The chief problems of this build is: You get Shurelya's as 3rd item, not as 2nd (not necessarily a problem, but it's something to consider). You need to get Chalice quickly, so you can't afford to buy many wards early. You don't get Sightstone, but to be honest I've grown to love Pink Wards. I personally don't think Shurelya's rush is going to be all that good, it wasn't all that good right after the Skarner nerfs, now that Shurelya's itself was nerfed hard I just don't see it being very good.
I don't like the items Spirit Stone builds into all that much, at least on Skarner. Let's compare it to the Locket: Spirit of the Ancient Golem gives: 4 more HP5, 7 more MP5, 75 more HP, 35 Tenacity, 15% increased dmg to monsters (the 10 true dmg on attack is removed however IIRC) Locket gives: 100 gold cheaper, 5 more Armor, 10% CDR, awesome useful active
I think the Locket is a clear winner here.
Also I don't think Skarner is generally as useful as he used to be.
Free week! He feels weak without items, and seem to be needing all of regen, slow, movespeed, tankiness and damage. Late-game he felt very nice though, in a game where it went to 6 items. The turning point felt to be around frozen fist + spirit visage + tabi + ancient golem (had shurelias as well, but I suck at using it so :E).... Any tips besides being more on point with shurelias?
On March 08 2013 23:54 Duvon wrote: Free week! He feels weak without items, and seem to be needing all of regen, slow, movespeed, tankiness and damage. Late-game he felt very nice though, in a game where it went to 6 items. The turning point felt to be around frozen fist + spirit visage + tabi + ancient golem (had shurelias as well, but I suck at using it so :E).... Any tips besides being more on point with shurelias?
I could make sense of buying BotRK or twin shadows for the slow, so you can close the gap, but the slow on IBG makes no sense to me. Your Q is already a stronger slow with a similar range, and stacking slows is really bad.
1- Previous page was a discussion before the item was actually released. 2- The item was nerfed since release (less CDR). 3- It was only Requizen being enthusiastic about it, as others shared concern. Scip didn't seem interested at all by the item and he is a very high elo skarner main.
edit: I really like the item on hecarim, who was also a fan of sheen and frozen heart in season 2. But on a jungler budget, can you really afford to get it when the slow is almost wasted (IBG wasn't bought at all on ez after the slow was nerfed for ranged champions)? If cost is not a problem, then frozen heart is still a very strong upgrade.
I feel like to play skarner you need to pick around him because of how lanes are essentially stuck 1v1(2) until you get to 6. But with the ease of vision, you generally don't gank until level 6 unless a lane is horribly overextended without wards. Making every single ult count(with flash should be 100% kill) is so important. Ideally you want laning phase to extend unless you're losing because skarner ult is a lot stronger against people who can't turn and focus you.
With spirit stone and philo I don't feel like there's a huge sustain or clearspeed problem, but he does feel really squishy. I've personally been going shurelya's->distortion boots+locket+FH if I can. Skarner benefits hugely from CDR and having flash CD up every 3 minutes pretty much means every other gank will be a flash ultimate, with shurelya's.
I am 8/2 this season with 7.4kda though so my views on skarner could be a bit biased.
skarners pre 6 ganks arent voli, xin, mao level but certainly not as useless as you are implying. if the laner can initiate the gank then a permaslow and tons of damage is enough for a kill to happen.
On March 09 2013 08:13 clickrush wrote: skarners pre 6 ganks arent voli, xin, mao level but certainly not as useless as you are implying. if the laner can initiate the gank then a permaslow and tons of damage is enough for a kill to happen.
He also has a movement speed buff that helps Unlike a certain 6 ganking champ (warwick and no e doesn't count)
you really need to chase like half a lane to kill someone pre 6 and make sure they dont have flash or that you both have flashes. Not really worth it to gank most of the time without ult.
Guys I need some serious Skarner tips. He's my go to jungler but my typical game with his is like 11/2/8 Defeat. Early game I'm a monster rampaging through the lanes killing who I please, getting dragons and the like. Then laning ends and I lose, every time.
How do you play Skarner in teamfights? I just don't get it.
Your build doesn't have a lot of HP Shurelyas is 250HP and FH is 0, with this build you are going to be really really squishy despite the high armor. Either replace FH with Randuins (and be content with 20/30% CDR depending on your runes) or get Locket which will help with your hp a lot (450+ hp for 1850 gold). I don't reccomend Shurelyas either, while the active is really nice the cost ineffectiveness of it is just painful, especially when you have Spirit Stone already which makes the regen worth not a lot.
The way you play Skarner in teamfights is peeling for your carries with your Q, shouldn't chase enemy carries. Save your ultimate either for when the enemy carries come into your flash-ult range or if one of the enemy bruisers is out of position and kill them before the enemy team comes for the rescue.
Because Skarner works best when peeling for carries and doesn't have a diving teammate (who alone just chases enemy carries off uselessly), he shouldn't be picked against AoE comps as this style of teamfighting leads to lots and lots of clustering.
Just realized how dumb this champ in solo queue against people who get picked off 24/7.
Any recommendations in terms of build? I'm just rushing straight to 40% as fast as I can so I can pull kids 40% more often, and I have no idea what to build after that.
What's a good mix of damage/tankiness? Should you even look to get a damage item at all?
There are only so many tank items for you to build. MR is banshie and visage. Armor is locket (which sucks now), FH, and randuins. I would only go IBG as a 4th or 5th item, unless your team is lacking dps, or the enemy team is stacked for ad. I'm actually 9-3 with skarner right now, which is insane considering how nerfed he was because of aoe clear, and how bad the jungle is for aoe clearers now.
I usually go very heavy on armor, since if you're dueling someone it's going to be an ad, you'll completely fuck up an ap caster, and they don't want to eat an ult and get pulled in anyways. And defensive stats work best with shields, since a shield is just free hp. Autoing increases your survivability and dps because of the resets, which is why IBG is better then say trinity.
q - now has a stacking attack speed buff, no longer slows w - no attack speed buff, shield amount increased, movement speed increased e - line projectile that slows, longer range then on live, but smaller width r - when you start casting it will root the target before you grab them. the enemy can flash or whatever before you start the animation, but if you start casting it, it will grab them.
On August 20 2013 00:57 Klonopin wrote: skarner rework incoming.
ill try to remember as best i can:
q - now has a stacking attack speed buff, no longer slows w - no attack speed buff, shield amount increased, movement speed increased e - line projectile that slows, longer range then on live, but smaller width r - when you start casting it will root the target before you grab them. the enemy can flash or whatever before you start the animation, but if you start casting it, it will grab them.
So...
They nerfed Skarner? Means now you need to level E to gank, whereas before you could just ignore E as a skill entirely untill like level 8.
On August 20 2013 12:40 Mogwai wrote: Something's different, must be a nerf
Skarners problem is more not being able to gank without six. How does a movespeed buff on Q once you hit someone in place of the slow help?
Before he couldn't hold someone in place at all unless he had ult because a slow not good enough. I dunno, I guess it really depends on the numbers, but not having any numbers and assuming the same numbers it doesn't really feel like it helps all that much because leveling Q just scaled better and used less mana than having E.
I dont really think it is fair to have people assume that it is a buff without giving numbers. I mean I suppose it would make sense if he got a greater slow on his E since it a skillshot now, but there is no way for me to know that for sure. That, and while I know it is much much easier to take a OP champ and nerf him than to buff everyone else, Riot has historically nerfed about ten times to every single buff they hand out.
Not fair to assume? Maybe, but at the same time you can't really fault me for thinking that way.
It's possible that you don't max q first anymore. Maybe it's w and e after the change. Wait and see. Making it so you don't max the aoe spell first could be the best thing for skarner jungle.
I think skarner is fine right now. He isn't played not because he's bad, but because the jungle changed, and expensive aoe isn't good anymore. Reduce the mana cost on his q now that it can't clear super fast and I bet you could get him played more.
On August 20 2013 13:08 SnK-Arcbound wrote: It's possible that you don't max q first anymore. Maybe it's w and e after the change. Wait and see. Making it so you don't max the aoe spell first could be the best thing for skarner jungle.
I think skarner is fine right now. He isn't played not because he's bad, but because the jungle changed, and expensive aoe isn't good anymore. Reduce the mana cost on his q now that it can't clear super fast and I bet you could get him played more.
Yeah, I agree.
I dunno, I think ult change sounds good, but really thats all he needs and thats it. He actual;ly pretty strong in soloqueue
the designer specifically said that skarner has a sub-50% win rate in solo que and isnt picked that much so they are not looking to nerf him at all. i believe he implied the perma-slow from q was a bit toxic, and they were looking to add a bit of counterplay to that aspect of skarner's kit. the reason the e on live costs so much mana is because it has sustain. removing sustain from skarner's kit (aside from the shield), will allow them to adjust mana costs across the board.
they are still not done. last time i looked into this they were using an on-next-hit e that would slow, and when i checked back it had changed to a line nuke.
skarner is my favorite champ and i hope they do him justice. im cautiously optimistic. they also said the rework would not be released until after the finals.
edit: the riot designer also mentioned that his pre-6 ganks felt much better with the rework. I dont know exactly how, but that is what he said.
if you are interested here is the link ive been reading.
Hoping that the E turns out to be a 1-point wonder, I do like the Q spam, and I have a feeling it would allow skarner to work well as an objective-based jungler with mediocre, but not awful, pre-6 ganks. Q doesn't need to slow dragon, after all.
Not having a permaslow and random healing in his kit hopefully will allow the numbers Skarner DOES have to be buffed - I actually DON'T feel like he should be super blue-reliant, and had always passed up blue buffs on him in S2 (shurelia's higher regen at the time, and glacial shroud nearly every game did help)
His kit works really well with IBG anyway, so if you really miss the permaslow, you can just pick one of those up.
On August 20 2013 15:06 Klonopin wrote: the designer specifically said that skarner has a sub-50% win rate in solo que and isnt picked that much so they are not looking to nerf him at all. i believe he implied the perma-slow from q was a bit toxic, and they were looking to add a bit of counterplay to that aspect of skarner's kit. the reason the e on live costs so much mana is because it has sustain. removing sustain from skarner's kit (aside from the shield), will allow them to adjust mana costs across the board.
they are still not done. last time i looked into this they were using an on-next-hit e that would slow, and when i checked back it had changed to a line nuke.
skarner is my favorite champ and i hope they do him justice. im cautiously optimistic. they also said the rework would not be released until after the finals.
edit: the riot designer also mentioned that his pre-6 ganks felt much better with the rework. I dont know exactly how, but that is what he said.
if you are interested here is the link ive been reading.
I dunno, I honestly feel like Skarner a good champion. I mean, granted his winrates aren't great, but he also is barely played and I think that has a large part to do with his kind of bleh winrates. Just kind of a low sample size really.
Master Yi, Nunu, Caitlyn, and Eve all had very similar wonky winrates and such before they became popular too.
No other champion except like Poppy, Urgot, and Sion have as weird fluctuating win rates (Some days winning like 60%, some days winning only 40%, over the last three or four months), and oddly enough they both only see play in less than 2% of games just like Skarner.
Everytime I see a Skarner that isn't me they get really fed from ult ganks, and then they build stupid shit (SotEL, Wits + Sheen etc) instead of jungler items and then dont teamfight right (ie run at enemy carries (with their lack of beefiness I might add) and get blown up for free) because they dont know how to play a champion that doesn't have a million gap closers.
That being said, I like Skarner, so despite being normally pretty reluctant inregards to change, I am willing to see how things work out.
i agree he is a good champion. he is my 2nd most played this season.
that said, there are some games where i miss the initiation that a sejuani or zac gives the team. i dont expect a rework to address this point at all, but i think many people prefer having that hard initiate on their jungler, which might lead to his low % of games played. i think ive seen 1 skarner in ~300 ranked games that wasnt me. no one plays him hah.
i think i would have been happy with just fixing his ult to grab people more reliably, but i guess i will be openminded that they wont ruin him.
Skarner E is massively underrated. It is kind of a throwaway skill but provides some pretty decent sustain and very strong damage considering the cooldown and cost. No reason not to get it at level 2 or 4, that's just being pig-headed if you ignore it until 13.
I hope they don't touch Skarner at all, he is in a decent place IMO. Similar disruption level in teamfights to Udyr, but MUCH better ganks and the ultimate remains a huge threat for the whole game.
He just has too many mana problems to justify getting it pre-6...Like I could see it if you felt confident you were going to consistently get blue buff.
You have blue buff from level 1-4 generally, and then second blue spawns at level 5/6. By the time your second blue runs out it shouldn't be as big of an issue anymore. Between Spirit item regen and Mana Crystal items you can get by.
There aren't all that many popular mids that can use blue buff better than Skarner, maybe Ziggs. Since the blue buff nerfs all the mana mids build at least Chalice anyways.
if u take one point in E you will have worst gank because of worst speed boost. why do you take E ? For the first clear sustain ?
You don't need it, and also when you E you stop for 0,5 sec moving so its very bad in his kit when the whole aspect is catching to people with his W then sticking to his target with his Q
The champion is fine but his E needs a rework that's all
There was a rework from November :
Base Attack speed lowered by 1%
Crystal Slash (Q) -Mana cost reduced from 20/22/24/26/28 to 16/18/20/22/24 -When target is hit, gives skarner an attack speed buff for 6s that stacks up to 3 times 4/5/6/7/8% -Slow removed (moved to E)
Exoskeleton (W) -Attack speed component removed (moved to Q) -Cooldown lowered from 18s to 14s -Max movespeed increased to 24/28/32/36/40% and ramps up over 3s -Duration remains at 6s -Shield value increased from 70/115/160/205/250 to 75/125/175/225/280 -Shield AP ratio increased from 0.6 to 0.8
Fracture (E) -Mana cost reduced from 50/55/60/65/70 to 40/45/50/55/60 -Heal removed (power moved into W shield) -Targets hit are slowed by 30/35/40/45/50% for 2.5s -Missile range increased 800->1000 -Missile width reduced 120->90 -Missile speed reduced 1800->1700
Impale (R) -Impale now roots targeted champion during the windup animation
On January 09 2014 04:44 trollbone wrote: if u take one point in E you will have worst gank because of worst speed boost. why do you take E ? For the first clear sustain ?
You don't need it, and also when you E you stop for 0,5 sec moving so its very bad in his kit when the whole aspect is catching to people with his W then sticking to his target with his Q
The champion is fine but his E needs a rework that's all
There was a rework from November : -snip-
Not sure what you mean by "you don't need it." You don't need it to not die in the jungle? Of course not. But health is health, ganking with 90% health is better than ganking at 75% health. E is definitely better sustain than 2nd point in W.
Taking E means you lose 2% speed from W, give me a break about ganks. Any time that extra 2% will make a difference (an extra auto-attack under turret maybe), 160 magic damage from your two Es in a gank would have made a bigger difference.
You have pots before 6 and after 6 you have very low health problems and you can take also pots. Its a better skill you are going to have a stronger shield 70 to 110 (lvl1 to 2), it's effectively the same as having more sustain.
And a 2% increase ON 6 seconds can make THE difference. It's the difference between a successful gank, catching someone with your ultimate and no ganks at all ! HELL fuck no E doesn't make a difference, if you grab someone and he is permaslowed you have done your job
using E twice in a gank probably wont get you 160 more dmg because you will delay your autoattacks which means less Qs and W. W also gives more attack speed for longer because the shield size goes up. I take E at lvl8 because you have Spectral Wraith by then and don't run out of mana by just jungling.
On January 09 2014 18:16 Scip wrote: using E twice in a gank probably wont get you 160 more dmg because you will delay your autoattacks which means less Qs and W. W also gives more attack speed for longer because the shield size goes up. I take E at lvl8 because you have Spectral Wraith by then and don't run out of mana by just jungling.
If you go with Lizard Elder instead then you definitely shouldnt level E before lvl13. There's no way you gonna have enough mana to use it without Spectral Wraith (both chalice and tear are pretty meh)
I get spectral wraith on Elise, Eve and Skarner, would go on Gragas or Fiddle too if I played them
I find that if you don't get an offensive spirit item on skarner you just get destroyed by lack of mana. At least with Lizard Elder you don't have to use so many Qs to kill camps so that saves you maybe like 50-75 mana on each camp (!!) but with Ancient Golem you just farm so slow and don't really have enough dmg to be super useful in early fights either.
can someone tell my why skarner isn't going to be straight up worse with the 4.2 changes? before you got your sustained spammable damage and your CC that gave you sticking power on the same skill followed by your shield/movement/as steroid for intuitive, efficient skill leveling.
now you've got your slow on a long ass cooldown skillshot instead of a point blank AOE, that will never be used twice in a gank. so not only is it harder to hit, but it also doesn't give anywhere near the sticking power. and you can't even skill it up first without gimping your clear and damage.
then you have your W movespeed which they want you to think is better by making the tooltip percentages bigger numbers, but is probably even worse mobility because half of the shields duration (you know the half you actually get to use before it's popped) is spent "ramping up" to full speed. and with your slow and your damage split between Q and E now, can you even level up W second to keep it from being destroyed faster than before? you are either going to have a garbage slow or a garbage shield/ms buff for a long ass portion of the game.
When Skarner was Free for a week a while back, I played him exclusively because I fell in love. this rework has not only removed his 'feel' as a champion, id also argue hes worse off then he was before.
Which is strange, the majority of people responding to his rework during tests were negative about the direction of the rework, Rito pls.
What if they only changed his E, so that it'd be a bit like Nocturne Q. The heal gets removed, but instead he gains lifesteal, spellvamp and movespeed while on this E trail. Maybe that would make his ganks a bit OP but I think thats a better direction to go with than the way they did it now.
both his E and W feel so unsatisfying and underwhelming at low levels and you can't even max them to do anything about it. i mean was there really a guy on the balance team who was like "this massive 16% ms boost that can be removed by a single auto or incidental aoe damage is just way too op, better give it a ramp up time so we don't break the game"?
the attack speed buff on Q is frustrating too, by the time it gets fully stacked a jungle camp is one or two autos from dying anyway, and that's on a stationary target. at least when it was on your shield you got noticeably more uptime as you leveled and your shield lasted longer. it's also borderline useless for taking down towers now since you need to hit creeps with your Q to stack/refresh it.
even lategame after you get past the horrors of his new skill leveling they removed a decent amount of power in the form of his E heal without strengthening anything else to make up for it. it just seems like they took so much strength out of his kit and all you get in return is his ult being almost as strong as it used to be.
On February 13 2014 05:55 iCanada wrote: His E heal never was good.
No one ever got his E when was popular, you got more eHP from leveling the shield.
The idea is to give him three useful skills.
i thought people didnt even level his E because it was literally that worthless lol, like pre remake tiger stance on udyr?
It was that useless, no reason for it. Late game or in a duel it did less damage and you got a flat rate heal designed to clear the jungle, not fight high level champions.
Shield gave you more eHP fighting jungle, and the run speed was far better at ganks than the mediocre nuke and heal.
Mourning the loss of heal is just naive.
Then giving skarner three useful skills is a good thing, allows much more ability to be tweaked. That being said, I think a skill shot slow is a touch weak. Should be at least a snare.
EDIT: The more I play Skarner, the more I feel like his clear time is absolutely phenomenal. Blue>Wolves>Wraiths>Red>Golems is done by 3:22 in game time without any obnoxious play on Skarners part.
Phoenix Udyr, for comparisons sake takes 3:29 to finish the same route, and uses more HP and mana to do so.
Skarner is a rock in his jungle, getting attack speed on his Q instead of his W means it has significantly more uptime on jungle camps. It also means once he has items he can clear out camps with only a couple Qs because his base AD is actually the highest in the game.
Speaking of highest base AD in the game, I'd actually bet he could farm like Golem + Boots2 + Triforce in a reasonable amount of time and just tool kids (although, I havn't actually tried). Certainly Golem + Boots2 + Sheen + Giants belt is attainable. And thats if no one is gankable, becasue ranged slow + root on ult now means he should have a free kill on Ult CD, which if you're farming well is actually rather minimal.
I think new Skarner is better than old Skarner, after having played a few games on him. He feels good, actually. I do think the slow should be longer though.
On February 13 2014 05:55 iCanada wrote: His E heal never was good.
No one ever got his E when was popular, you got more eHP from leveling the shield.
The idea is to give him three useful skills.
i thought people didnt even level his E because it was literally that worthless lol, like pre remake tiger stance on udyr?
It was that useless, no reason for it. Late game or in a duel it did less damage and you got a flat rate heal designed to clear the jungle, not fight high level champions.
Shield gave you more eHP fighting jungle, and the run speed was far better at ganks than the mediocre nuke and heal.
Mourning the loss of heal is just naive.
Then giving skarner three useful skills is a good thing, allows much more ability to be tweaked. That being said, I think a skill shot slow is a touch weak. Should be at least a snare.
EDIT: The more I play Skarner, the more I feel like his clear time is absolutely phenomenal. Blue>Wolves>Wraiths>Red>Golems is done by 3:22 in game time without any obnoxious play on Skarners part.
Phoenix Udyr, for comparisons sake takes 3:29 to finish the same route, and uses more HP and mana to do so.
Skarner is a rock in his jungle, getting attack speed on his Q instead of his W means it has significantly more uptime on jungle camps. It also means once he has items he can clear out camps with only a couple Qs because his base AD is actually the highest in the game.
Speaking of highest base AD in the game, I'd actually bet he could farm like Golem + Boots2 + Triforce in a reasonable amount of time and just tool kids (although, I havn't actually tried). Certainly Golem + Boots2 + Sheen + Giants belt is attainable. And thats if no one is gankable, becasue ranged slow + root on ult now means he should have a free kill on Ult CD, which if you're farming well is actually rather minimal.
I think new Skarner is better than old Skarner, after having played a few games on him. He feels good, actually. I do think the slow should be longer though.
How do you skill the new skarner? lvl 4 value point in the E or the W?
The new skarner feels...underwhelming. I mean, he got very good clear, is fast, got slow, nice ulti...but something about him just doesn't feel right, he's not very strong at any phase of the game, his ganks and teamfights feel "meh" at best unless its ulti gank[and even then].
i feel that he's pretty good and fun...but he lacks anything that will make him stand out.
the old skarner with 3 spell was better than now the skarner with 4. He is so underwhelming with no slow on his Q ....
Now u have to take E so u have to rank one point into it and so u have one less point into shield. you are not as tanky anymore nor as fast. Also the shield now is not an immediate boost but slowly increase.... It's bad, skarner should not be like rammus. when you have a movement spell this short you should get the effect right away
some people feel than the new skarner is better than the old skarner because they don't take into account the spirit stone change. Now skarner in the jungle is like amumu, you will never be out of mana and you will sustain eventually.
Skarner wasn't as good as other jungler with 3 spell so i thought if they added a new one (some passive/active spell) he could become good but now he has 4 spell and STILL bad. I guess now they can tweak the numbers ... sight
E was not useless at all. For lane skarner it was the most important spell and made him a sustaining beast. With the rework they made him from Ok laner to garbage. And I feel that his kit overall got nerfed without actually compensating.
His E is still so bad you can't max it first and you have zero sticking power without Iceborne Gauntlet. He also goes OOM even faster outside of the jungle as you now have to use E for ganks and It cost like half your manabar.
The most satisfying thing about skarner was the perma slow after all, being either an unstoppable machine if fed or the best peeler in the game. It was really rewarding to make that 10/1 renekton suffer and unable to reach your carry. Now they just removed it, because "antifun" (meanwhile yasuo ults you from offscreen). They pretty much took skarners core play and smashed it against the wall, giving us another generic bruiser. He's just a worse olaf minus the ultimate.
Not to mention his ult is still bugged and lets people escape easily. There goes one of my favourites, rest in peace.
I have no clue how LastSkarnerNA is able to be diamond one maining this pile of shit. Picked him up a few months ago because I wanted to play something you don't see everyday. Played a few games cried uncle and went back to ez mode junglers. Got my hopes up for the rework. Played a few games and cried again.
Built him like the best players do but if I play like almost any other jungler. I clear faster, have less sustain issues, don't have to cry for help whenever I'm counter jungled & farm a lot more champs.
Have watched Nightblu3 trying and crying. Seems you need to be a special kind of breed to make skarner work. Maybe it helps if you enjoy losing and getting flamed by team mates ;-)
On February 22 2014 07:13 oZe wrote: I have no clue how LastSkarnerNA is able to be diamond one maining this pile of shit. Picked him up a few months ago because I wanted to play something you don't see everyday. Played a few games cried uncle and went back to ez mode junglers. Got my hopes up for the rework. Played a few games and cried again.
Built him like the best players do but if I play like almost any other jungler. I clear faster, have less sustain issues, don't have to cry for help whenever I'm counter jungled & farm a lot more champs.
Have watched Nightblu3 trying and crying. Seems you need to be a special kind of breed to make skarner work. Maybe it helps if you enjoy losing and getting flamed by team mates ;-)
Skarner is a good champ with good tools...it's just that top junglers's tools are better and they are [much]easier to win with as a result. Put some work into him and you will win just as much with slight outplay.
Which means that his tools are bad in comparison and he is a bad champ in comparison. So Id say that the word bad describes him a lot better than the word good. I personally still dont level E until lvl8, even if you do take 1 point at lvl4 its still just like 30% slow for 2.5, pretty pathetic, better get more mspeed and survivability from W levels for when you hit lvl6 imo.
Its like all he does is be irrelevant and farm fast.
His slow is the key to making him be anything that isn't hot garbage, especially since they nerfed his W, and his slow is hot garbage. So what you have is just a bad champion.
Doesn't matter if you have more gold than enemy jungler, they teamfight better, have better objective control, and actually have the threat of ganking someone who isn't dumb.
Its like playing a stunless Udyr without a spammable move speed increase and shield. There is literally 0 reason to pick Skarner over Udyr.
On February 25 2014 00:52 iCanada wrote: I dunno, he just seems really bad.
Its like all he does is be irrelevant and farm fast.
His slow is the key to making him be anything that isn't hot garbage, especially since they nerfed his W, and his slow is hot garbage. So what you have is just a bad champion.
Doesn't matter if you have more gold than enemy jungler, they teamfight better, have better objective control, and actually have the threat of ganking someone who isn't dumb.
Its like playing a stunless Udyr without a spammable move speed increase and shield. There is literally 0 reason to pick Skarner over Udyr.
This. While udyr might not have the ult(which is often very disappointing) he can atleast do something beside just farming his own jungle. If i want a gamebreaking anti carry ult, why shouldnt i pick vi?
Skarner is outclassed in every area by other junglers. Unless you ban every other top tier jungler, there is no reason at all to pick skarner. Old skarner could atleast provide a constant aoe slow once he actually got in(especially dangerous in pre-6 counterganks). Now everybody sees him coming and....doesnt give a fuck lol What were they even thinking giving him a speed boost that ramps up?
got around to testing this guy while all already stated complaints are valid the attack speed buff on his Q is poorly designed as well. The only way to keep the buff up between camps is by tanking red around the corner next to wraiths or wolves as close as possible to blue buff. The attack speed buff also cannot proc off of structures meaning the only other thing an attack speed boost on a melee character would be good for, also does not work efficiently.
I can't see any reason to pick this champion compared to the old version which was possibly top tier with the new jungle fist giving mana if only we had gotten more than like 2 weeks to work with it.
Im not sure what you mean by tanking red around the corner? You can keep stacks between Wight-Blue-Wolves and Wraits-Red-Golems (and the other way around). You mean you can keep stacks from red to wolves?
On February 26 2014 10:45 Scip wrote: Im not sure what you mean by tanking red around the corner? You can keep stacks between Wight-Blue-Wolves and Wraits-Red-Golems (and the other way around). You mean you can keep stacks from red to wolves?
I mean exactly that, you can only keep it from major buffs to the next small camp by tanking it as close as possible to the next.
def not from top side to bot side lol, even tanking wolves in the intersection you have to hit q as you arrive at blue to not drop.
Fills no niche, doesn't even make sense in any situation. Only reason to pick him is for his ult... only thing with his ult is that it literally has no synergy in any facet of play; In soloqueue you team doesn't have the coordination to burst a target you ult unless it an idiot proof fight already (ie, 3v1 or something), and in arranged play there is no way a skarner can do anything aside from feel with ult for an AD.
Honestly, new Skarner is Warwick that scales poorly and has a melee range ult.
So useless. They buff the 3 second slow from 30% to 45%... not nearly enough. Needs a significantly longer duration as well, otherwise its pointless as you'll never stick.
Replayed Scorpion earlier this week. Feels okay, but nothing special. Clears pretty well with Spectral Wraith and slow feels slightly better than before. But the movement speed on W blows cock now.
On March 03 2014 22:59 Scip wrote: Why go Spectal Wraith when you can go Lizard Elder? His AD ratios are a lot better than AP ones, and Lizard Elder got better build path.
how do you figure a 0.8 ratio on 30 AD is better than a 2.9 ratio on 80 AP?
i guess the 30 ad does outdamage the ap if you only use Q, breakeven point is a 4th Q (to overcome first ad-only Q) with a fully stacked spectral wraith. so i guess for mana efficient clearing elder lizard does come out clearly ahead with the passive dot.
if you are doing anything else though the ap ratios on his 3 other skills seem fairly significant.
a) aspd buff/building ad increases aa damage. b) you dont cast your ult every engagement/camp nor do you cast all of your abilities c) you cast your q in every engagement/camp. It has a low cooldown, you cast it multiple times. Other CD's are large.
W scaling isnt that important now that it doesn't grant attack speed. The E and R ratios get easily outdone by the burn passive that is applied by your Q also. Autoattack damage is not negligable and as you mentioned, less mana intensive clear.
Ill just further point out how very fallacious indeed it is to count all his ratios and add them together and say "those are his ratios". His Q cd is 3.5s and so that ratio is way more important than any other he has.
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