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On November 17 2011 03:51 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 07:24 zulu_nation8 wrote:
How do you guy decide whether to max Q or E after W? I've been maxing Q a lot since it feels like I get more burst with the extra auto Q applies and the lower CDR makes lasthitting easier. Also how do you guys think Irelia does vs Riven/Wukong/Talon/Renek top? In my experience Irelia goes even or shits on all of them after a certain level. But vs. Renek and Riven you really need to play passive early. should always max q before e. You only need the e for the stun. Rarely should you ever use E as an ability to do damage with. the real question is whether or not to max Q or W first. It's usually based on how the game flow is going. Usually for me, I tend to be outlaning my opponents in solo lane pretty hard, so I actually prefer to max Q out first (with 1 point in w). But there are times where I know that I can not actually keep up in a solo lane against certain champions, I go for sustain, with W max first.
This is not true at all. The extra stun/slow duration on E is very noticeable at higher levels. It's perfectly legitimate to only go 1-2 ranks of Q while maxing W/E; how you allocate points on Irelia should be completely based on the lane matchup.
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On November 17 2011 03:44 Sandster wrote:
They stack multiplicatively. So say 3 champions nearby (40% reduction on passive):
1 - {(1-0.4)*(1-.35)*(1-.1)} = 65% reduction. You get 61% without Juggernaut, so it's rather weak. Defense past 9 gives you 3 hp/5, 8% cdr at level 18, Initiator, and 1.5% damage reduction + Juggernaut. In offense past 9 you get 4%crit/Lethality, 6 armor pen, Executioner, and your choice of 3 points (probably Havoc). Either spec would work based on the lane matchup, but Lethality and Executioner are very good talents.
EDIT: I wonder how good Cleanse+Ghost is for a lane-sustain build. You are ridiculously hard to gank (removing the exhaust/ignites that would otherwise kill you), and late game with Cleanse up and 21/9/0 you are immune to cc (87% cc reduction for 4 seconds) and can initiate/dive/chase squishies like a boss with a Wit's End + tank build. Of course you already do that, but Cleanse/Ghost makes you even better at it.
Seems like juggernaught only worth it if you get tabi and don't get any tenacity then. I'd probably go for indominatable over health regen btw. I'm not a big fan of crit on irelia either, so the only thing I'm looking at is executioner and 6 arpen. Still might go for defense. I feel like -1.5% damage taken > 1.5% extra damage done for the same reasoning that armour on zerglings is better than attack and damage on marines is better than armour.
And yeah, E>Q most of the time. More damage, more useful. The only time you want more in Q is the reduced CD for chasing people. In lane E is definitely better to max.
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Well Havoc is generally a pretty weak talent, and usually the last offense talent to look at for any AD-based champion, tied with Vampiricism for the 3% life steal. It's still not bad that bad when you combine auto+Q+auto with W up and Wit's End though, and with R.
Crit isn't very good on Irelia either but the talent is so broken that it's probably worth getting anyway. But honestly Executioner is why I would default to 21/9 as long as I can survive the early lane matchup.
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I tried out jungling with Irelia in a few custom games and I was a bit surprised by how fast and easy she clears it now because of the new masteries. I went vamp scepter first and 21/9/0. I can't wait to try her out as a jungler in some real games tomorrow.
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On November 22 2011 18:00 broz0rs wrote:
I tried out jungling with Irelia in a few custom games and I was a bit surprised by how fast and easy she clears it now because of the new masteries. I went vamp scepter first and 21/9/0. I can't wait to try her out as a jungler in some real games tomorrow.
What runes did you run?
Edit: Tried a few customs myself. I ran 21/9/0 as well, and it wasn't rather fast or safe tbh, though I was using one of my lane runepages I think (something like armor yellows, ASP reds, MR/L blues and MS quints). Without leash on blue (custom game and all) I couldn't even do a full clear.
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On November 22 2011 18:51 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 18:00 broz0rs wrote:
I tried out jungling with Irelia in a few custom games and I was a bit surprised by how fast and easy she clears it now because of the new masteries. I went vamp scepter first and 21/9/0. I can't wait to try her out as a jungler in some real games tomorrow. What runes did you run? Edit: Tried a few customs myself. I ran 21/9/0 as well, and it wasn't rather fast or safe tbh, though I was using one of my lane runepages I think (something like armor yellows, ASP reds, MR/L blues and MS quints). Without leash on blue (custom game and all) I couldn't even do a full clear.
I'm new to jungling in general so I don't have a dedicated rune page unfortunately. I was using a standard AD carry rune page of ArPen reds, armor yellows, mres blues, and AD/ArPen quints. I just aim for 24 ArPen with runes and masteries. In any case, here's my route:
wraiths (smite), wolves, blue (smite), back (buy boots +1pot), red (smite), small golems. build is WQW. very easy clear imo
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Who can Irelia lane / not lane against top?
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On December 05 2011 07:28 Cosmology wrote:
Who can Irelia lane / not lane against top?
She can't lane against some bruisers like Udyr Xin Zhao or Olaf. They hurt so bad and you can't even try to trade with them because they should always outdamage you and they can sustain just like you. Its possible, but its really not a fun experience.
People who can sustain but go even with her just turn into a farming contest (Yorick Nasus imo). Some mages will absolutely destroy her as well, like Swain+Gragas. I main Swain as my AP mid, and he will destroy so many solo melee champs its not even funny.
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On December 05 2011 07:42 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 07:28 Cosmology wrote:
Who can Irelia lane / not lane against top? She can't lane against some bruisers like Udyr Xin Zhao or Olaf. They hurt so bad and you can't even try to trade with them because they should always outdamage you and they can sustain just like you. Its possible, but its really not a fun experience. People who can sustain but go even with her just turn into a farming contest (Yorick Nasus imo). Some mages will absolutely destroy her as well, like Swain+Gragas. I main Swain as my AP mid, and he will destroy so many solo melee champs its not even funny.
I'm pretty sure Trynd beats her too. You might be able to trade with him when his fury is down but once he gets a wriggle's it's almost impossible.
And of course Teemo counters her pretty hard. I don't think she has the damage output to really threaten Kennen either, although she can just farm against him.
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On December 05 2011 07:58 starfries wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 07:42 Cloud9157 wrote:On December 05 2011 07:28 Cosmology wrote:
Who can Irelia lane / not lane against top? She can't lane against some bruisers like Udyr Xin Zhao or Olaf. They hurt so bad and you can't even try to trade with them because they should always outdamage you and they can sustain just like you. Its possible, but its really not a fun experience. People who can sustain but go even with her just turn into a farming contest (Yorick Nasus imo). Some mages will absolutely destroy her as well, like Swain+Gragas. I main Swain as my AP mid, and he will destroy so many solo melee champs its not even funny. I'm pretty sure Trynd beats her too. You might be able to trade with him when his fury is down but once he gets a wriggle's it's almost impossible. And of course Teemo counters her pretty hard. I don't think she has the damage output to really threaten Kennen either, although she can just farm against him.
See I'm not really afraid of Teemo as much. I know he can beat A LOT of melee champs top but I think Irelia stands a great chance against him. She can close the gap on him so quickly with Bladesurge and then ES him and get a few AAs in. I know he kills Garen since all he needs to do is blind Garen if he attempts to Q Teemo. Udyr is the exact same.
Never laned against Kennen. Interesting matchup but I think you need to kill him before he gets Gunblade or else it becomes near impossible to do so. Her passive makes MotS a little less useful luckily.
I laned against Trynd before. It did get progressively worse as the lane carried on. Had to use my ult a few times to keep the lane away from my tower.
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I dunno I've beaten Teemos before but I always think they made a mistake and if they played properly I would lose. You need a lot of points in W since he's going to harass you every time you try to last hit and the poison really hurts, but if you don't have a lot of points in E then your harass is not going to do enough damage. And you can forget about jumping him after he hits level 6.
Kennen's stun isn't long, so it doesn't matter if it's a bit shorter since he gets to land a free shuriken either way. I only played this matchup once or twice so I'm not really sure but it seemed pretty even to me. I doubt she can kill Kennen before he gets his revolver/will though, since you have to kill him under the stun or he's just going to stun you and run away.
Against Trynd, once he hits level 2 with full fury he just spins at you and starts hitting you and you lose. Once he gets mocking shout it's even worse. If you have a way to deal with that then please share.
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Best thing I can think of vs Trynd spinning at you it to trade until he puts you at lower health, then stun him and get a few shots in.
These minion changes have made getting counterpicked a lot worse. 1/2 damage done now means that people who only try to zone you out benefit even more.
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On December 05 2011 09:07 Cloud9157 wrote:
Best thing I can think of vs Trynd spinning at you it to trade until he puts you at lower health, then stun him and get a few shots in.
These minion changes have made getting counterpicked a lot worse. 1/2 damage done now means that people who only try to zone you out benefit even more.
I dunno, a 1 sec stun isn't really enough when he has a 35% crit chance from fury combined with the new masteries and 15 damage from bloodlust.
edit: also I did exactly that last game, I opened cloth 5, he opened boots 3, stunned him after he spun in at level 2, he still pooped on me :|
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I didn't say it would completely turn the tide, it just helps when he wants to trade damage.
There really is no beating a good Trynd with Irelia unless you get some nice ganks from jungler.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
0o irelia is a hard counter to tryn. its like impossible to beat her unless you get some serious jungle help
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On December 05 2011 09:59 Brees wrote:
0o irelia is a hard counter to tryn. its like impossible to beat her unless you get some serious jungle help
Irelia does not hardcounter tryn. You really can't trade with tryndmere. YOu can farm as well as him though if you are good at positioning and use your Q only to "hit" slightly dangerous creeps. I don't think I ever pushed tryndmere out of a lane without a jungler. His max fury hits hard+mocking cry just takes out too much damage to trade.
Irelia is my favorite top lane however she just doesn't stack up well versus heroes like uydr and gp.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
he can barely do damage to you once you get wriggle's/tabi and if he tries to play aggressive spin is always going to leave you with less hp then him so you can just immediately stun and then go to town on him with true damage and burst him down everytime.
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On December 05 2011 10:11 Brees wrote:
he can barely do damage to you once you get wriggle's/tabi and if he tries to play aggressive spin is always going to leave you with less hp then him so you can just immediately stun and then go to town on him with true damage and burst him down everytime.
And Tryndamere won't get a Wriggle's himself?
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On December 05 2011 10:18 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 10:11 Brees wrote:
he can barely do damage to you once you get wriggle's/tabi and if he tries to play aggressive spin is always going to leave you with less hp then him so you can just immediately stun and then go to town on him with true damage and burst him down everytime. And Tryndamere won't get a Wriggle's himself?
armor doesn't affect true damage or irelia's stun which are the 2 skills you max vs him.
My most played is tryn in solo q 1800-ish and ive yet to beat an irelia, its a stomp everytime. I can beat pretty much any other character.
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Yeah, people don't seem to understand this about irelia; you just stack resists which counters building damage early on easily but if they do the same thing you don't care because of true damage, and you also sustain harder than them. Udyr does good against irelia because his tiger hits are magic damage and his W counters the true damage component. Most other champions just can't trade like that. Tryndamere doesn't trade nearly as hard as udyr and doesn't have the magic damage but he does have some healing, but nothing like udyrs W.
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EPT
