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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On December 06 2011 02:57 Sabin010 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 06 2011 01:43 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:20 Sabin010 wrote:
I feel movement speed quints and the 5% movement speed from initiator + utility masteries is too good once dragon fights, start to happen, but I would be willing to change things to lane against Akali specifically, being able to chase down the carries is what Irelia is all about and movement speed combined with 65% cc reduction just helps this. you fundamentally misunderstand the game. Irelia is about chasing down carries, sure, but that's all secondary to not getting shit on in lane. Your runes and masteries are there to make sure you don't get shit on in lane, because no one gives a fuck if your movespeed is 12 higher than it would be without those quints if you have 30 CS out of laning because you got zoned. Besides, you really think you're going to be above 70% HP diving through a team? please, initiator is a shitty mastery. and you really overestimate juggernaut by putting it in terms of having 65% cc reduction. I mean, la-di-fucking-da, if I just have mercs + my passive, I have 61% CC reuction. Is it really worth taking a bunch of mediocre masteries to get another 0.08 seconds shaved off of a 2 second stun? The answer, of course, is no. Simply put, the math doesn't lie, defensive tree is really mediocre past veteran's scars and it's foolish to go that far down it when you can put the offensive tree to use. so basically you lose lanes because you're speccing like an idiot because you think you need things that you don't. Armor or MRes quints go a long ass way to not losing all these matchups with irelia, as would speccing a bare minimum of 9 in offensive to at least get attack speed and 10% arpen, if not taking a full 21 to get crit, lifesteal, arpen and executioner. believe it or not, you can still stick to carries with just a triforce. a slow + speed buff is all you need to stick to them, you don't need balls out movespeed by any stretch of the imagination. 6% attackspeed is pretty pathetic, especially on a champ with a move built in to apply an extra hit. 10% armour penetration is not going to really do anything when facing a champion who's coming to lane with less than 30 armour. Honor guard is a direct counter to havoc. Juggernaut is going to be worth about 100 health in the endgame, and early game (pre-mercs) its 10% cc reduction is going to give you more reduction when against 1 or 2 champs in lane than the end game bonus of 4%. The 6% bonus damage to champs less than 40% is better for one of your team mates because Irelia can put the stun and get the guy to 40% so some one else can finish them, and if they're only at 10% you should be able to kill them with a w auto attack q anyway. I'll try some flat MR runes. when against Akali, but don't tell me im speccing like an idiot, and fundamentally don't understand the game, when you posted this less than a month ago. On November 02 2011 03:06 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 11:04 redtooth wrote:On November 01 2011 03:24 Mogwai wrote:On November 01 2011 03:18 Makavw wrote:Irelia used to be my favourite char but now i just dont see a reason to play her anymore  . She cannot force anyone out of the lane, she is not the best afk farmer , she doesnt counter anyone but she can be countered :/. The only reason why irelia is still good for me is beeing the most mobile "tank" in game. Other then that if i want to farm i pick Nasus or Gp, if i want to be aggresive i pick Garen/Renekton. Also i have yet to lose a lane versus irelia as garen. He seems like super hard counter to her unless he gets ganked early . Irelia is flexible enough to spec vs. anyone. She doesn't win many lanes, but she doesn't lose the way Nasus or Singed can, and she has comparable power when farmed. Lol @ farming with GP, on equal farm, Irelia takes a massive massive dump on GP. Irelia is my go-to safe pick in lane. She can just spec balls out defensive and arrive on lane with like 70 Armor vs. Garen/Pantheon/Talon with 5 hp pots and just outsustain them until wriggle's and then she just fucks them in the face. You can literally just outspec whoever you're laning against and get your farm vs. ANYONE, which transistions into her retarded mid-late game. She's a really stupid character, but I love Irelia and I can't believe people bitch about her power (it's STILL fucking absurd). =/ i hear such passionate praise about irelia but i've never seen her perform that well. when laning against her i found it to be such an easy win even back when she was considered 'broken'. now that i'm playing as her i just can't seem find her place. she doesn't have the ridiculous early game of garen, the broken midgame of nidalee, the unstoppable lategame of jax. at the same time her mediocrity at all stages of the game don't add up to her being 'versatile'. i was talking to spud about this earlier and he also doesn't find her to be too strong either. maybe i'm just that bad at the game. also, how do you beat AP with stuns as irelia (sion, ryze, even kennen). AP with stuns? Flat MRes Glyphs, Flat MRes Quints, 0/21/9, open regrowth, rush philo -> Merc's + Wit's End. Garen early game is Garen early game. Irelia can very easily spec and build to never lose a lane to Garen and by the time she gets wriggle's, he can't do fucking anything. Irelia 1v1 murders Nidalee midgame AND is stronger in teamfights (by a mile too, it's not even close). Nidalee gives more mobility but, w/e, it's fucking Nidalee. Jax's "unstoppable" late game is something I've still yet to fucking see. Most overrated phase on any character ever. Irelia does more in your standard teamfight than Jax will and doesn't require you to build an entire fucking team around all-inning on Jax's lategame. I dunno man, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say. When I play Irelia, I feel like I cannot lose a lane hard enough to hurt my team because I can build whatever I need to stop the opposing damage and just get my farm and then in teamfights I can alternately peel and kill tanks or dive and kill carries regardless of my build at that point in time due to her crazy ass kit. I take it the best would be to play flat mr glyphs and mr quints, keeping the same masteries, and opening regen pendent would be the best way to stay in the lane long enough to farm up some nice items. On December 06 2011 01:38 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:20 Sabin010 wrote:
I feel movement speed quints and the 5% movement speed from initiator + utility masteries is too good once dragon fights, start to happen, but I would be willing to change things to lane against Akali specifically, being able to chase down the carries is what Irelia is all about and movement speed combined with 65% cc reduction just helps this.
Still if you're unable to even get out to the creeps in the middle of the lane, when the lane is reset vs. Akali, what do you do? If you just try to walk up to the creeps she's going to drop her slow and try to land a few procs on you resulting in you losing like a 4th or a 3rd of your health each. Do you let her harass so she draws aggro then pull the lane into the tower so you can farm it? I don't see how a wriggles lantern is going to help, because she's going to be out farming me and will be able to buy her hextech revolver when I get wriggles, so she gets tons of sustain and the armour isn't going to give me anything beneficial. I have tried waiting until level 7 and getting wriggles, but she still beats me and then a tanky jungler like Udyr will just dive me / attack my tower / stun me under the tower and tank it for the akali to just burst me down depending upon how much health I'm at.
I don't see how Ninja tabi are going to help. With the removal of nimbleness, the life saving dodge percs just don't happen anymore, and Akali is mostly magic damage so the cloth armour isn't going to be very effective. What should I do when fighting Akali? I lose trades pre-six, I lose trades post six. Is starks an option I haven't looked at because the Wriggles hasn't worked. Witt's end hasn't been effective because I haven't been able to get it stacked before the damage is done. I'm absolutely clueless in this match up. To fight akali, you have to play extremely smart and careful. Akali snowballs easily. Imo, to fight akali, you have to bait the cloud. You bait it by pretending to be aggressive when the creep wave is low, mehish akali will usually attempt cloud to hide from your aggressive and do her Q into attack harass. All you need to do is back off. Then once the cloud goes on cooldown. you can go back in, active your true damage E when you have lower hp. Then when she starts to run Q into her. Timing of this type of harassment is also very important. You want to strike when she doesn't have a lot of creeps on her side. Riven is mehish. I perfersonally attack the same way I attack akali, Fight when her skills are on cooldown. What about the Akali's that use the pool to zone you off the creeps, and isn't afraid to trade outside the pool? Should I be trying to get in the bush just so I don't lose xp? I mean I just want to farm up and make it to the mid game where I can actually trade with her, but I feel if she forces me back and gets a revolver before I can get a phage and philosopher's stone, im going to have a hard time staying in lane.
Not to burst your bubble or anything, but you do recognise that 0/21/9 was with the old masteries, right?
Furthermore, he never said to get Havoc.. unless I'm reading it wrong? Honour Guard is pretty terrible anyway. Reducing 1.5 damage very 100 damage is almost nothing. I'm also not sure why you think Irelia can't be cleaning up people once they're below 40% hp since she also excels as an assassin. In fact, her ability to be a tanky assassin as well as still be good at sustained damage is precisely why she's incredibly powerful. Continuing on, 10% APen scales really well, and I don't see anything else in the Def Tree that scales as hard. And if any top laner comes to top with less than 30 armour they're asking to have their face hurt really badly anyway.
Also, Mogwai is one of TL's best top laners and has shown himself capable of holding his own against other great top laners such as Voyboy. (I remember him beating Voyboy Akali top lane in the NA Premier Qualifiers too, and this was pre-nerf Akali). So it's not like he doesn't understand this game.
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Sorry, I didn't realize it wasn't that long ago we got the new masteries. I just said Honour Gaurd is a direct counter to havoc. Don't get me wrong 10% armour pen is nice, but investing 9 points into offense just to get it, when I could get a sword of the divine and have 30 flat armour pen which is better than 10% vs anybody with less than 300 armour + 60% attackspeed. Irelia gets flat true damage, why do you even need armour penetration?
Would health regen yellows be better than armour vs Akali?
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I would be very cautious before diving into an argument against Smash regarding top lanes...
You literally ignored all the masteries that make Irelia good in lane, then are asking why you can't win trades in lane.
-6% AS is great for a champion that scales off AS. If you say it's "pathetic", then I gotta say removing less than 5% of a cc is "pathetic".
-10% armor pen is pretty important when 1) you run AS reds and have no flat armor pen, and 2) no freaking top lane in the game comes to lane with less than 30 armor. Who the hell are you laning against? Base armor + armor yellows alone is 30 armor, and that's not including the 6 armor in defense (that everyone gets against Irelia) and the fact that so many top lanes like to get Wriggles. For 5 points you get the offensive stats you scale with best, which should be a no-brainer.
-Saying Honor Guard counters Havoc is like saying you don't buy damage because it's countered by armor/MR.
-Executioner is great in lane since you start most trades with W in melee range (and saving Q and R for burst a little later), and is great later on to get the last bit of damage with Q and R. 6% is a lot of damage...didn't you say yourself you're supposed to kill squishies?
I don't understand how you can say all these are meaningless and less useful than some movespeed when Irelia isn't even MS reliant. You're almost never above 70% in teamfights, and even then you shouldn't ever have trouble sticking on a target (especially if you have triforce). And damage > movespeed for killing squishies, since no one except possibly Ezreal can kite you anyway. Run MS quints if you really want the movespeed.
You win against Akali like every other non-sustain lane - survive the first few levels with pots (either boots or MR mantle are fine) and then completely shit on her in lane starting at 5. Trade hits, then heal up while she can't do anything. If you have Wit's End she can't ever touch you. Try the right runes/masteries and you'll be pleasantly surprised.
EDIT: Did you really just mention Sword of the Divine? That item is pretty awful. Get Wit's End / Triforce.
Against Akali, AS reds (or armor pen if you're used to that), armor yellow, MR blue, MR or hp5 quints.
EDIT 2: Sorry for the rather harsh tone here - but it's frustrating to see people ask for advice, have multiple people respond (including some of our best posters/players), and see their advice and time spent get waved off.
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On December 06 2011 03:25 Sabin010 wrote:
Sorry, I didn't realize it wasn't that long ago we got the new masteries. I just said Honour Gaurd is a direct counter to havoc. Don't get me wrong 10% armour pen is nice, but investing 9 points into offense just to get it, when I could get a sword of the divine and have 30 flat armour pen which is better than 10% vs anybody with less than 300 armour + 60% attackspeed. Irelia gets flat true damage, why do you even need armour penetration?
Yea I said that back with offensive and defensive trees were close to the same power level. they're not even close to each other anymore.
Q does physical damage, R does physical damage, the majority of your auto attack damage is still physical damage. ArPen is good on Irelia. and why exactly are you comparing a tier 3 mastery with a 1970 gold item (especially one that's not even close to core on Irelia)? completely different ballparks.
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You guys and your hand waving arguments. Everyone just picks their favourite tree and goes "you get THIS from this tree but you ONLY get this from this shitty tree" Mogwai already did all the math and offensive outperforms the other trees. 6% attack speed scales ridiculously well with W but you only look at the Q which has a substantially smaller effect on your damage not to mention scaling well with the 10% armor pen mastery with your ultimate as well. Who comes to lane with 30 armour? And why are you looking at %armour pen for early game? When even squishies have like 100 armour 10% is a big fucking deal when you ultimate through their whole team 4 times.
You're looking at the lategame utility masteries and comparing them at early game and then say juggarnaught is 100 hp late game, just ridiculous bias there. You can still get lots of movement speed from fon or trinity anyways, as smash said, laning is the most important thing for your runes and masteries because your runes stats snowball advantages into much bigger things if you win lane because of them.
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I'm asking for match up specific advice vs. Akali. I've never seen one get a wriggle's, and I haven't had a problem against any top laner that rushes wriggle's aside from Udyr and Riven. 90% of the games I play I get triforce so you can get like 10 sheen procs from blowing all the cooldowns and sticking on some one. I would need to find out the exact amout of attackspeed I would need to get 3 attacks instead of 2.
Akali's typically show up to lane with boots and 3 potions, and i've never seen one come to lane with 30+ armour. Her passives turn it into a sustain lane so I don't see how its a non-sustain lane, and they're typically getting hextech first trip back.
What would you suggest for runes and masteries specifically vs Akali. I already said what I was using and I just get called an idiot, and given vague advice. What should my first item be and what should my goals be for the 12 minute mark.
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The argument that honor guard counters havoc seems like an extremely silly argument when both masteries are just really, really bad, and you should avoid taking both of then all the time. Havoc is so bad that even if I'm going 21/0/9 as an ap carry, I'd rather take summoner's wrath, max out the crappy metal force, and max out butcher because the +4dmg against minions for early game laning seems to be worth more than havoc.
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On December 06 2011 04:07 Sabin010 wrote:
I'm asking for match up specific advice vs. Akali. I've never seen one get a wriggle's, and I haven't had a problem against any top laner that rushes wriggle's aside from Udyr and Riven. 90% of the games I play I get triforce so you can get like 10 sheen procs from blowing all the cooldowns and sticking on some one. I would need to find out the exact amout of attackspeed I would need to get 3 attacks instead of 2.
Akali's typically show up to lane with boots and 3 potions, and i've never seen one come to lane with 30+ armour. Her passives turn it into a sustain lane so I don't see how its a non-sustain lane, and they're typically getting hextech first trip back.
What would you suggest for runes and masteries specifically vs Akali. I already said what I was using and I just get called an idiot, and given vague advice. What should my first item be and what should my goals be for the 12 minute mark.
ArPen/AttackSpeed Reds, Armor Yellows, MRes Glyphs, MRes Quints.
Open cloth + 5, wriggle's -> wit's end or wriggle's -> philo + hog, then standard Tanking items and Triforce as needed.
On December 06 2011 04:11 koreasilver wrote:
The argument that honor guard counters havoc seems like an extremely silly argument when both masteries are just really, really bad, and you should avoid taking both of then all the time. Havoc is so bad that even if I'm going 21/0/9 as an ap carry, I'd rather take summoner's wrath, max out the crappy metal force, and max out butcher because the +4dmg against minions for early game laning seems to be worth more than havoc.
havoc's actually OK on AP carries IMO. It's serviceable with high base damages on spells.
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I dunno. Even if you deal like a 1000 damage with a spell you'll only get 15 more damage, which doesn't really end up being much at all because damage like that comes from burst, not sustained damage. I feel like on mages that have trouble last hitting under a tower early on like Swain would benefit more using the points elsewhere.
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On December 06 2011 05:07 koreasilver wrote:
I dunno. Even if you deal like a 1000 damage with a spell you'll only get 15 more damage, which doesn't really end up being much at all because damage like that comes from burst, not sustained damage. I feel like on mages that have trouble last hitting under a tower early on like Swain would benefit more using the points elsewhere.
I find the more interesting way to look at it as like, say your ult does 200 damage at level 1 with 0.8 AP scaling. If you have havoc, it will be better than a point in mental force even at 0 AP and only 1 level of the skill. I guess I'm just saying mental force is bad and havoc is typically worth more than it on spells.
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Ahh, that really is a much better way of looking at it.
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Well mental force doesn't scale as much as its AD equivalent, because of ratios. So as somebody pointed out, it's kinda UP.
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Two rumbles in a row today and I got destroyed, very unnerving considering how comfortable I am with Irelia as a top. I have little experience with rumbles but I guess I learned a lot, in that you can never really wreck him. Post wit's end it's still a close call to make (definitely started to bully him 1v1 once trinity was half built). First time I felt like I actually needed some jungle help, but I guess that's why they are there.
He can literally just walk into the lane and kill you if he has the confidence. Would probably run 9/21/0 if I had another chance at em.
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Akali just wrecked me too =[
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I actually have a question.
I used to build tri-force a lot but a friend of mine told me to try out something different thing.
So after going either for philo or wriggles first (depending on the top laner) and merc treads I go phage -> atmas -> wit's end -> frozen mallet.
The time I get wit's end is kind of flexible...and by flexible I mean I forget... ><
But what do you think of this? I feel like I'm a lot stronger late game with this then getting triforce....but I'm kind of a newbie.
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I see a lot more Wit's End in general with champs like Irelia and Udyr.
Starting to run AS marks+Quints with her because I think she wants AS over raw damage. So yeah, I love Wit's End, but not sure on FM.
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I used to build philo->sheen/bruta->chain vest/negatron and build into triforce, then randuin's/FoN, and complete with shurelya and ghostblade. Very expensive, very tanky, loads of triforce procs and the ability to root most of the enemies in place thanks to randuin's active + phage's slow.
I switched to wriggles->wit's end following the advice of somebody, into frozen mallet->atmas. It's good to, and def more powerful from what I used to do (extremeley good late game but so long to kick in). Sometimes I find my previous build better because I can't get to people as easily (less cdr means no more 5s Qs and 6s Es), but it's better to keep a precise target in place.
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Wriggles is simply about winning your lane, you build it if it helps you win lane significantly.
Wit's end I feel is the same, in teamfights irelia is very mobile and anti squishy so you won't stick on targets for that long meaning the sustained damage and mr isn't quite as high value as it is in lane where you can win 1v1's and heal for tons with wriggles+wits end. Also wits end+hiten style is over 100 free AD that completely bypasses their armour which they will probably have runed/masteried for and they probably want wriggles as well.
I see a lot of phage/FM + atmas a lot but I dislike it. Phage+Atmas vs triforce? I'd take triforce like every time. You lose some armour but you get burst and mobility and similar sustained damage. The atmas and phage damage scales better with R, and the same thing for brutal, but I don't think it's worth it. I honestly think brutalizer/gb is trash on irelia I never see it used effectively and its just 2600~ spent which would be better spent on a GA by miles.
Like ideal scenario for irelia is like triforce rush, but you just choose to delay it with less effective teamfight items for laning like wriggles, wits end (both also situational counters to heavy magic//physical damage) and then after triforce go full tank. You can go full tank with like wriggles+wit's end as your core if you can't afford triforce and need wriggles+wits for laning but I honestly really like triforce for teamfights unless they are a tanky team.
For tank items I usually like GA>FoN>Randuins/Frozen heart>Atmas but it depends on who on their team is fed and if they rely on skillshots or skills over auto hits on their AD carry etc.
I dislike philo unless you want shurelyas, which isn't a bad item. It feels better to get wriggles for sustain nowadays though.
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On December 17 2011 09:02 holdthephone wrote:
Two rumbles in a row today and I got destroyed, very unnerving considering how comfortable I am with Irelia as a top. I have little experience with rumbles but I guess I learned a lot, in that you can never really wreck him. Post wit's end it's still a close call to make (definitely started to bully him 1v1 once trinity was half built). First time I felt like I actually needed some jungle help, but I guess that's why they are there.
He can literally just walk into the lane and kill you if he has the confidence. Would probably run 9/21/0 if I had another chance at em.
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Akali just wrecked me too =[
You probably didn't play passive enough at the beginning of the game. Lotta laners really abuse Irelia early so she has to cede some CS and farm under tower until she can get strong enough to trade effectively.
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rumble's a hard counter. Assuming I had to play the matchup, I'd run double gold/10 -> FoN rush.
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How to play vs riven? she just stuns destroys me then proceeds to run away and I cant do anything about it
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EPT
