(Active): Irelia summons 4 spirit blades which she can fling to deal physical damage to enemies they pass through, and she heals for 25% of that damage vs champions and 10% vs minions.
Cost: 100 mana Range: 1,200 Cooldown: 60 / 50 / 40 seconds Physical Damage: 80 / 120 / 160 (+0.5 per ability power) (+0.6 per bonus attack damage)
Masteries
9/12/9 or 9/14/7 with indomitable for maximum flexibility. There's really no lane you absolutely need 21 defense for especially if you have armor quints, but the CDR is nice. Versus AP tops you can consider running MP5 yellows and going 9/21/0.
Summoners
Flash is better most of the time than ghost, but if you really like ghost and the enemy team doesn't have spells you need to flash out of then feel free. The 2nd summoner depends on your laning opponent.
Runes
You can take AD reds for easier last hitting and slightly better trading early game. It helps a lot if you expect to get pushed in. AS reds are better for later when your W is maxed and with 9 offensive mastery you should be able to lasthit comfortably anyway. Armor yellows, MR blues. MSPD, Armor, MR, AD, HP regen, Lifesteal, are all viable quint options.
Skill Order:
Always max W. Leveling Q > E gives more utility due to the CD reduction but at the cost of slightly less damage. E > Q is more damage plus longer stun. I like to max Q 2nd vs ranged champions and max E 2nd vs melee. It's personal preference. At lv1 wait until you know what you need before leveling a skill, though vs most matchups it should be Q for lasthitting.
Item Build:
Open with boots + pots. Cloth is only good vs champions you absolutely cannot trade with and have to take free hits from in order to last hit, which really should be no one.
Versus bruiser tops, phage + tabi or mercs should be your first items. Versus AP tops, two null + recurve or phage because you're getting wits ends eventually. If you're winning a lane, a phage will often solidify your advantage more than wits even vs APs. Rushing MR is good vs multiple AP champions.
Gold items are most of the time bad. Get dblades instead. Only philo stone is sometimes okay if you really need the regen.
Triforce is core, but you can get parts of it mixed with other items for laning, such as a chain vest, wardens mail(super good for laning), negatron, wits end, etc.
If you are a pure assasin, GA is the best defensive item. Otherwise get defensive items after triforce according to enemy damage source.
Matchups:
Irelia has a hard time vs Yorick, Darius, Jax, Malph, Udyr, everyone else is fair game. You still crush those champions if ahead, but they do become difficult when even or behind. If you are ahead, you can force everyone out of lane except for the few who just have too much sustain, in which case you can still zone.
Laning:
Lasthitting is always the #1 priority, trade in short bursts and with as little creep aggro as possible. You should always let the lane push towards you early but not enough that you can get harassed under tower. If you are behind and the enemy champion tries to trade, E and walk away. If you are ahead, Q to a low creep, initiate with E and beat on the enemy champion. Always keep your Q up unless you're maxing it second and going for a full combo trade. In general, conserve your Q because it's also your escape. Control the wave if you are zoning, don't let it push to your tower so that it resets.
Teamfighting:
Assassinate the squishy that's dealing the most damage without taking too much AOE to the face.
Final Notes
Ever since the base stats buff, Irelia has become one of the safest if not the safest top lane pick. She has probably the least number of bad matchups, and the worst ones are entirely manageable.
I just like to note all the good EU Irelia players (like wickd) max W>E>Q and don't always go trinity force in favour or more tanky items like wits end, hex drinker, atmas, frozen mallet, or just delay it.
Maxing W first is also totally necessary against champions like lane udyr and lane wick if you hope to be able to farm.
I can see how that works. Skip hog because faster warmogs is really important to charge it. You sure you need force of nature and last whisper though? I'd tempted to go wits end-->phage-->zeal-->trinity force as a follow up just because I never feel like I need to be imba tanky on irelia because of how hard it is to pin her down.
CDR builds are also possibly viable, philo+hog-->shurelyas+randuins is very cost effective toss in CDR boots and you are max CDR with efficient items and get sheen and trinity force for damage in there. This is super mobile but less tanky built like a brick set up that you have.
I always go 0/21/9 on Irelia only reason I would want to go into utility is for the CDR I feel.
You should almost never try to initiate team fights, but you should always be the first one charging when chasing. Irelia is an assassin, which means she's particularly good at cleaning up after the initial aoe and ults have been casted. She should be played with a very aggressive mentality, which means you can't be behind on levels or items. Remember to not be a pussy.
I totally disagree. I always initiate on Irelia, is so hard to CC her that she can easily flash out if focused. Also you are totally relying on your jungler to initiate. Irelia isn't really an assassin she is really flexible she has insane DPS with attack speed and insane burst with trinity force and AD items.
Just played using Utah's build except instead of FoN I went wits end-->Shurelya's. 4000 health totally unkillable even if I initiate. Insane damage as well. Over 300 effective AD with W and wits end and +65% attack speed. 140 armour 140 resists. 33 minute game lol, farmed like a beast top while cait farmed bot we split pushed np.
You should definitly include the other ways to play her in the OP & some infos to when/why/what build.
I know the EU one is aimed to counter dual AP lanes, that's why you get stuff like mercs/wits/hexdrinker since otherwise you'd just explode to burst too quickly.
Afaik the "Standard US"-way you posted is aimed towards maximizing your midgame burst. When and why should you go that route?
What about the tankbuild utah posted? When to go for that?
Triforce helps to maximize your burst potential vs AD carries. Better vs solo AD's who you need to kill.
Wits end build usually better vs EU's double AP solo's because the majority of damage you will be taking both during laning and midgame teamfights will be magic damage when the farmed AP carries are at their max burst potential. Also better at killing tanks(tanky AP) so good vs something like amumu cho etc.
Tank build of utah's usually better when your team has no tank or initiate, and you need to be able to take the damage for the team through initiations. Here you need to survive the initial burst (force of atmogs).
On July 21 2011 09:04 r.Evo wrote: You should definitly include the other ways to play her in the OP & some infos to when/why/what build.
I know the EU one is aimed to counter dual AP lanes, that's why you get stuff like mercs/wits/hexdrinker since otherwise you'd just explode to burst too quickly.
Afaik the "Standard US"-way you posted is aimed towards maximizing your midgame burst. When and why should you go that route?
What about the tankbuild utah posted? When to go for that?
If the team was lanewick and amumu which they had in the game I did it you just rape them all because ww and amumu don't have high damage and you just kill all their carries or at least stop them from doing stuff. It's more sustained damage and tankiness so better for killing tankis and surviving burst.
Sorry, wasn't looking at this thread mostly because most people don't play her tanky.
FoN gives movement speed (important given that she has relatively weak initiation so her strength is her ability to catch up and hurt someone... and then walk away if init fails) and massive health regen (important for anti-poke as well as post-failed-init recovery), along with the ever wonderful magic resist (highest MR in one item in the game). With a decently stacked Mog and a Pstone/Miracle you end up with well over 100 health per 5, which means the longer you survive a fight the more obnoxious you usually are. Considering that with Atma and armor runes you already sit on roughly 150 armor at level 18 the FoN will simply match it, giving you a good 150/150 or so.
We (Turkey and I) checked out a lot of items for her post-FoN/Atmog setup and decided that Last Whisper is probably the best single (and relatively cheap) item for increasing her damage, as all but E does physical and it gives her good base AD anyways; it also makes sure that she's able to apply damage to everything, even tanks (although inefficient, the 40% arp + true damage helps). At one point we pondered Gunblade but half of it is too useless (the spellvamp) :[ I also tried Starks and Bloodthirster and while the lifesteal was good, she doesn't attack consistently enough to make good use of the lifesteal, but that may be because I favor playing her as a peeling burster.
I would only play this way if you trust your actual carries and want to make the other team break their backs trying to kill you. I ran this build with a jungle Amumu and just tanked shit while Corki killed everything. The sheer amount of effort needed to take down tankrelia is staggering, especially when you get FoN and have a ridiculous amount of health regen and armor/MR. And it's not like she doesn't do damage; with Atmog complete I was still doing a burst of roughly 1200.
gp5 items and potions (assuming you hold onto them long enough) [free] + mercury treads [1200] + warmog's armor [3000] + atma's impaler [2355] + negatron cloak [740] = 7295
typical trin force + FoN build:
same gp5 items and potions + merc treads [1200] + trinity force [4070] + force of nature [2175] + chain vest [700] = 8145
some more food for thought:
atmogs: pros over trin/fon: health, attack damage, total price, further health items increase attack damage obvious upgrade: negatron -> FoN
trinity force / fon: pros over atmogs: sheen proc, movement speed, phage proc, health regeneration, built in pieces / build starts running much more quickly obvious upgrade: hog + chain vest -> randuins omen
I think both builds have merit (and on a lot of champs too lol), but I like the flexibility of the trinity force build myself. If I feel that I have to go defensive early, it's not such a great loss to slide in a negatron or chain vest after my sheen / phage whereas with warmog's you kinda dont want to stop building it to build offensive items. for one, the upgrade efficiency is HUGE, plus it grows with time so you want to get it as early as possible.
Irelia is naturally very bursty (especially given her tankieness) so if you feel you can get your atmogs running quickly enough maybe you dont need the extra damage inbetween. Of course to get the damage out of atmog's, you really need to be autoattacking quite a bit during fights, which is somewhat problematic. conversely, with trinity force you dont need to hit a lot to get your sheen / phage procs, especially with q.
I feel that the reason that atmogs is better on a hero like Jarvan than Irelia is that he has a steroid and an arena which he can use to force you to take his autoattacks. Personally with Irelia I want to dive carries and make them run away, not peel people off my carries. And for that reason, I do not build Irelia atmogs. However, if that IS how you want to play, it may very well be the build for you.
The problem I see with Atmog's on champions like Irelia (and Nocturne) is that they do exceptional early on due to their kits. Midgame, they really dwindle off while you build at Warmog's. Other champions like Jarvan and Lee Sin scale just fine, even while building their Warmog's due to their passive and extra damage from % life missing, respectively.
Add on the 21 point Defense spec, you're really not doing much damage with Irelia in the first 20 minutes of the game. If I saw this Irelia on the other team, I'd definitely challenge Dragon a lot more frequently and earlier knowing tanky Irelia's lack of offense early on.
I actually disagree about your point on noc. His midgame is weak anyway because he needs the ghostblade active, and until its done he has trouble picking up solo kills. At least with bits of warmogs you get health.
I thought the biggest issue with Atmogs is that your first big survivability item is an HP item when Irelia has exceptional natural healing--so it's not a cost-effective source of mitigation when compared to armor/MR.
My contention with that point is that that's if you're looking at Irelia as a damage dealer. If you look at Irelia as a tank though, mid-game with the tankier build (even if you're still building Atma components) the amount of damage she deals without items is disproportionate compared to the beating she takes, similar to pre-jump-style tankudyr, except compared to Udyr she has a jump so she can actually fuck people up. This means other teams are still forced to deal with her in some way, especially if she just Singed's it and pushes through their team. Ends up being a really good wall for the carries. I'm not gonna deny it sucks mid-game but it usually sucks mid-game for a lot of tanks anyways (ie. Rammus) so it's a trade-off IMO, as late-game tankrelia is absolutely stupid.
Edit:
On July 25 2011 03:27 TheYango wrote: I thought the biggest issue with Atmogs is that your first big survivability item is an HP item when Irelia has exceptional natural healing--so it's not a cost-effective source of mitigation when compared to armor/MR.
With the armor runes and 21 defense you end up with a base armor of like 130 while building Atma's - the issue is MR but that can also be bumped into the 100s with a Negatron.
Honestly having more health doesn't help you peel, having more damage does, having more health lets you dive carries and you can't get focused down easily, however trinity force burst damage can help killing carries fast if you their team is diving, I don't see the way you guys are looking at it.
If you notice wickd when he plays with trinity force he tends to kill their nocturne or other carry diver first and then jump the carries, while he doesn't do that as much with tankier builds. Trinity force earlier is much easier to focus down if you don't have a zilean or something.
We're not looking at "more health, more health!" my build trades TriForce for Belt + Atma's. With the armor runeset and 21 defspec this makes her a bitch to kill, while still outputting Irelia damage (only really loses out on the sheen proc for TriForce) on their carry. Neo's contention is that finishing Warmog (especially if you buy a quick Negatron) is weakens her mid-game, such that she's not really building any more damage, and my contention is that her base damage is high enough, especially with a Belt-fueled Atma, that her increased defensive capabilities outweigh her damage shortcomings when she's being played as an initiating tank.
when you all play Irelia, do you need a solo lane? I'm not lv. 30 yet and I often have to duo lane with a carry. The problem, of course, is that I end up getting Triforce by 30+ minutes and my Irelia is too squishy to initiate. I'm going to try the Atmog build for 10 games and see if its better since Triforce Irelia at a duo lane is too damn squishy to do anything except get blown up. lol
On July 25 2011 04:06 broz0rs wrote: when you all play Irelia, do you need a solo lane? I'm not lv. 30 yet and I often have to duo lane with a carry. The problem, of course, is that I end up getting Triforce by 30+ minutes and my Irelia is too squishy to initiate. I'm going to try the Atmog build for 10 games and see if its better since Triforce Irelia at a duo lane is too damn squishy to do anything except get blown up. lol
IMO yes. Irelia needs levels.
You might have more success with a wriggles, a wits end and a sheen if youre going to be farm and level limited.
On July 25 2011 04:06 broz0rs wrote: when you all play Irelia, do you need a solo lane? I'm not lv. 30 yet and I often have to duo lane with a carry. The problem, of course, is that I end up getting Triforce by 30+ minutes and my Irelia is too squishy to initiate. I'm going to try the Atmog build for 10 games and see if its better since Triforce Irelia at a duo lane is too damn squishy to do anything except get blown up. lol
How about an early sheen into fon? The way I see it, she's not much of a threat to the opponent's carries without her defensive items, as they can easily burst her down. The least she could do is to separate their carries in team fights, but again, without much defense, she actually becomes somewhat of a target of their carries.
I can see warmogs being viable when both team play passively, lengthening the laning phase.
Not sure about atmas because of triforce's (mainly sheen's) potential throughout most of the game.
Atma's not really good until you get her defensive HP items anyway, it's more an end build item I think.
I just got crushed on duo lane (with Vlad) against Katarina and Fiddle. I don't know which runes they had precisely, but they were geared toward some AP right off the bat, and they used a lot of poking with Kata's daggers and Fiddle's crow. We outfarmed them for a bit, but the raw output of Fiddle's Crow combined with Kata's dagger meant we were permanently harassed, and I have no idea how I could have responded. Irelia is somewhat committed once she attacks, since she has no poking abilities whatsoever (her Q let her right into the fray) and with Kata's shumpo and some exhaust summoner spell their chasing abilities outshined my escape options. Plus, the delay before she actually hits with her E means that it's not that great to stop Kata's ulti.
Any idea how this kind of poking comp can be addressed? I really have no idea and those are the ones that give me the most problems during the laning phase (or Xin and his knockback spell).
Sheen gives you like an extra autoattack's worth of damage. It's fine for the burst but it's not THAT good. The damage you get from Atma is essentially that of a completed Triforce at level 18 with no HP items. As said, with TriForce for Atma+Belt, you essentially trade the Sheen proc for comparable sustained damage in exchange for more survival (TriForce = 4k, Atma+Belt = 3.4k, you can get a Negatron or Ruby with the gold differential)..
On July 25 2011 06:41 Southlight wrote: Sheen gives you like an extra autoattack's worth of damage. It's fine for the burst but it's not THAT good. The damage you get from Atma is essentially that of a completed Triforce at level 18 with no HP items. As said, with TriForce for Atma+Belt, you essentially trade the Sheen proc for comparable sustained damage in exchange for more survival (TriForce = 4k, Atma+Belt = 3.4k, you can get a Negatron or Ruby with the gold differential)..
Sheen proc? Its a trinity force proc, 160+ dmg for most people. In addition, you are trading away a slow and a movespeed boost, as well as extra attack speed, AP, mana etc.
At least be fair in your comparisons.
(Not to mention that every blade of Irelias ulti procs triforce, which is most of her singletarget burst)
On July 25 2011 06:21 Alaric wrote: Atma's not really good until you get her defensive HP items anyway, it's more an end build item I think.
I just got crushed on duo lane (with Vlad) against Katarina and Fiddle. I don't know which runes they had precisely, but they were geared toward some AP right off the bat, and they used a lot of poking with Kata's daggers and Fiddle's crow. We outfarmed them for a bit, but the raw output of Fiddle's Crow combined with Kata's dagger meant we were permanently harassed, and I have no idea how I could have responded. Irelia is somewhat committed once she attacks, since she has no poking abilities whatsoever (her Q let her right into the fray) and with Kata's shumpo and some exhaust summoner spell their chasing abilities outshined my escape options. Plus, the delay before she actually hits with her E means that it's not that great to stop Kata's ulti.
Any idea how this kind of poking comp can be addressed? I really have no idea and those are the ones that give me the most problems during the laning phase (or Xin and his knockback spell).
It honestly comes down to not playing that lane comp. A lot of the seemingly unfair matchups are results of not picking a balanced team comp, including this one. You pretty much just need to farm near your tower because they're going to demolish you with a properly executed combo of fiddle cc + kat ult. Ward your lane brush if you need to.
People are talking about the difference of having Sheen early-game.
On July 25 2011 05:45 billy5000 wrote: How about an early sheen into fon? ... Not sure about atmas because of triforce's (mainly sheen's) potential throughout most of the game.
The AP gives like a whole 20 damage on her E, it's negligible. Slow and mspd boosts are okay but we've been discussing the effect on her damage output mid-game.
Triforce vs atmogs is It's trading more utility (movespeed, slow, mana, AS, etc) for more survivability (more health, armor, MR if you want to make the difference up in cost). The actual damage is comparable though, simply triforce proc is more burst oriented while extra AD (from atmas) is more sustained damage oriented.
No one's saying TriForce Irelia does less damage, obviously she'll do more, but the differential comes more from the Proc, which is what I've been saying. It's trading the random utility for more survival, and comparing the random TF stats is useless because I'm not bringing up teh random armor/crit/MR etc. that you can buy with the same gold either.
On July 25 2011 05:45 billy5000 wrote: How about an early sheen into fon? ... Not sure about atmas because of triforce's (mainly sheen's) potential throughout most of the game.
The AP gives like a whole 20 damage on her E, it's negligible. Slow and mspd boosts are okay but we've been discussing the effect on her damage output mid-game.
At least be relevant in what you're comparing.
If we're comparing strictly based on her damage output mid-game, then sheen's procs are better suited than the 18% crit from atma's (also, you have more options with your unspent gold as you can add either chain vest or negatron without having to strictly go armor to build an atma's). Assuming she's not autoattacking a tanky champion, irelia's strength relies on bursting down the enemy's squishies, and she won't be able to autoattack as many times to really benefit from atma's assuming they have escape capabilities in addition to a support nearby.
Stop. Making me. Flog. A dead horse. Also learn to read previous posts.
No one is saying Atma does more damage than TriForce. That Sheen/TF is better for Burst is a no brainer. This has been said maybe 10 times in this 2-page thread already.
Building tanky simply makes her tanky. The whole discussion originally was on whether Irelia with Atma does enough damage midgame, and my point has been that, yes, she does sufficient damage mid-game because her base skill damage is high enough and Atma gives decent sustained damage, even without completing a Warmog as long as you buy a Belt. Yes, TriForce will obviously do more damage. It better, given that you're investing 4000 gold into an item that's essentially just there for its damage output.
Irelia's strength when you run armor + def spec + defensive items is that she's a bitch to take down, does incredibly high skill damage, and is a big freaking wall that the other team must account for or they'll get picked apart. And considering that she can do this from a solo lane that tends to walk over AP carries is a big, big plus. Why would you even think about running tankrelia and bother comparing it to damage Irelia if you're not looking for a solo lane tank?
When you Q->E into their team and start gunning after their squishies, with tankrelia you take a ridiculous beating and a lot of CC (if you turned PStone into Miracle) before you get killed. With a good, farmed carry or two this is absolutely brutal. And if they opt to ignore you, Irelia is still Irelia, her damage output is stupid, and Atma gives enough sustained damage that you can usually 1v1 a squishy anyways.
Utah's build makes you an unkillable beast. With teams so reliant on carries and CC this one works a charm versus it. The damage is still really really high against everyone, since you have decent amount of true damage and physical damage. I also like to build wits end instead of FoN but usually I'm not the one he needs to 100% initiate usually they will or we'll have ashe arrow or something like that.
WE prolly works, I've just been favoring FoN because I prefer the anti-poke (health regen is noice). It's just a different way of playing her, for a different type of role, and one that she can pull off (similar to Jarvan) because her skillset is sort of stupid for a supposed melee DPS.
On July 25 2011 12:11 RetZ wrote: I'd always use tabi or lucidity over zerk greaves myself.
Lucidity is utility and tabi is survivability, The whole point of warmogs rush is you don't need either. Just run in and boss mode. You are already getting low on damage so I like berserkers. If you want CDR you probably should be using like a trinity force build anyway. Miricle+CDR boots+Spirit visage-->trinity I saw once and I guess it makes sense for even more mobility and burst.
Berserkers help a lot early on when you just maxed hiten style in lane and you're working toward your atmas. 75 True damage is ridiclous.
On July 26 2011 01:42 Southlight wrote: I don't really max Hiten, I just get Zerkers for w/e extra damage I can get, hahah.
Incidentally, you should try max Hiten vs. other tanky dps. In a sit there and smack you fight, it outperforms you other skills by a considerable margin in terms of Damage and it lets you better shrug off WW/Udyr/Yorick bullshit. Atlanta doing his Q and E bullshit gets raped by my lanewick, but everyone tells me that Wickd stomps lanewicks by just going max hiten.
Meh, once you start maxing hiten first you never go back. If you are getting zoned you heal more, if you are fighting you'll do just as well anyway.
Irelia has some problems with yorick but really its your best bet. You can outlast his initial spam in the first few levels and farm and if he comitts too hard he'll take creep aggro pushing lane and allowing for an easier gank (if he continues to overextend), and after level 6 you don't have major problems anyway. (Although tears feels like bullshit you can still outlast it with philo+pots+level 5 W.
I don't understand how and why you would lane vs any melee without W max. It means irelia tends to outperform other laners because you feel zero pressure to win your lane so you focus on farming and generally get more kills because the other laner is trying to win his lane too hard.
Like for example baiting udyr into wasting stances and losing mana and having to stay in turtle for a while lets you regen at 26 per hit and regen faster than he does before wriggles.
Nah, it's probably mostly that I've been picking Irelia solo only as a counterpick and only if people need me to take a solo tank, otherwise I'm usually putzing around on the other side of the map with a support hero >_o so I've never actually laned against a tanky DPS or whatnot.
Yeah I'm purely used to laning against AP heroes that just kite the shit out of you so I go for the burst and then walk back to creep and resume last hitting until I get my cooldowns back, rinse repeat lol.
Is it normal for Irelia to struggle vs a singed? I went up vs one with flat mp5 yellows, so even though he blew all his mana by level 2, he regenned enough to constantly harass.
Later I just had to let him aoe the lane and farm off tower because it was impossible to ever not have a creep wave disadvantage.
I had arp reds, dodge yellows, mr/lvl blues, mvspd quints and opened regrowth+1.
With the recent buff to Eleisa's Miracle, irelia is going to have an even stronger top (this holds true for every top laner that uses mana), cause the CC reduc will synergize with her passive to basically make her immune to cc and let her spam WQE combos and single Q's pretty much all she wants.
On the subject of vs. singed, I'd just get a fast NMM or maybe even 2 NMM if I was planning on building Wits End later in addition to mercs. Use EW and profit.
Against singed I'd go Philo-Hog-Wit's End pre-triforce. I've always been of the opinion that Irelia is a free-farm top champion who sucks vs. other free-farm top champions and is good vs. lane dominators. So yea, I really hate being vs. like, Singed/Nasus/Olaf/Etc with her because I feel like no one can kill each other and they end up stronger than Irelia off of infinity farm.
I dunno, vs Singed (bearing in mind that I'm the type that goes Philo -> Regrowth (in anticipation of Warmawgz) -> Zerker -> Atma I feel like as long as I don't get lazy with positioning I can just beat him out of the lane :x
Singed doesn't have the tools to deal with it though o_O It sounds to me more like the Irelias suck, lol. No idea.
Obviously I can't ZONE the Singed but I don't find Irelia gives him "free farm."
Same for Nasus.
Edit: Thus far the only hero I've found Irelia to NOT be able to just 1v1 straight up is Udyr post-Wriggles, unless I build a Wriggles as well (which is an option to be honest).
Edit2: WHY DOES IT FEEL LIKE I PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME WHENEVER I TALK ABOUT HEROES I PLAY WTFFFFFFFFFFFF lol
On September 15 2011 00:46 Southlight wrote: Singed doesn't have the tools to deal with it though o_O It sounds to me more like the Irelias suck, lol. No idea.
Obviously I can't ZONE the Singed but I don't find Irelia gives him "free farm."
On September 15 2011 00:53 Southlight wrote: We can try, although I think you're just flat-out better than me so I'm not sure a 1v1 would prove either of our points lol.
On a side note Wriggles on Irelia sounds pretty good.
Wriggle's is pretty good on anyone who attacks tbh.
Ya. Been favoring cloth+5 on Irelia of late for Tabi (yea instead of Greaves because I've been building EVER TANKIER zzz). Only issue is that pstone still better for the mana regen, dunno. Might be too expensive.
I favor playing incredibly safe because I take it as a personal affront to losing lanes, so while I used to run Regrowth + Pot I find it easier to prevent dumb losses/destroy with more impunity by taking 5 potions, hahah.
Edit: Incl. vs AP heroes, cuz I switch to 30 MR page instead :< #1 asshat.
Don't like wriggles on Irelia except if you have a goal in mind in the laning phase. She doesn't benefit that much from the lifesteal and AD that much and it delays your wits end///triforce by a lot.
Kinda feel like she already excels in sustaining and you should focus on burst survivability and burst damage with maybe a bit of regen for anti poke.
I've exploded with 3000 hp 150/150 before, I don't really find that build even comparably tanky :> Why people hate on tanks so much, go hit squishies. Leave me alone.
A lot of people can dish out incredible damage to targets that happen to be in range (AD carries, anivia, brand, etc) so being tanky is sometimes MUCH worse than being able to instantly burst a squishy down.
I tend to go the super tanky builds when they have more of a dedicated carry team with people with CC to defend them, while if they have nocturne and some other bruiser who just dive straight into our carry line I just rape theirs with trinity force.
The whole point of the tanky dps is not letting yourself take any unnecessary damage and force their carries to become vulnerable if they want to go for you than tanks who rely on CCing squishies and letting their carries do the work.
I've played your build exactly as you posted it and with wits end variations because you want it for lane a lot. The issue is that you shouldn't exclusively stick to one build for every situation irelia is so versatile it's like you say a different hero if you build her differently because she has such a versatile skill set. You can still initiate with trinty force builds you just need to farm up a fon or GA or something and make sure to GTFO as soon as you slow someone and go back in again when you can burst down a squishy or just beat up on some bruiser who's overextended while you are somewhat safe.
And I felt really stupid building zerkers I always go ninja tabi now on that build.
Also shit like atmogs+wits end-->trinity or GA (as oppsed to atmogs/fon-->randuins) deals sick ass damage while being similarly tanky to your build you just can't rambo initiate too much.
I can't play her squishy because she dies too fast and it pisses me off. When I pick Irelia I go in 100% expecting to tank and initiate lol. It's like you can play aegis and semi-squishy with Amumu and I'm sure the pstone opening and such works for plenty of people but I can't do it. :p Hence not arguing about the merits and such, just cracking jokes about SQUISHY NOU atm.
I usually build Irelia with a somewhat endgame mindset (total cost of "standard' build amount to ~15k) and a "weak" midgame, going philostone->boots->sheen->brutalizer, then completing with mail/negatron if I need it, or keep building triforce, with ghostblade/Triforce/FoN/Randuin in mind. Most Irelia(s) I see to seem to like GA, Warmog, and other stuff like that, ending up with 3k+ HP but not even 100 in each res. Also, those builds seem to focus on AD rather than AS (which I feel is better due to hiten's active).
Am I doing something wrong? My damage output is generally better and while I'm slightly easier to burst (1900~2200 HP for most of the game with 150/180 arm/res), my sustain is a lot better against dps and in the long run, so I feel like I do a better job of just diving their carry, drawing attention/fire, and either kill it or backing off for some regen before coming back a bit later.
Is it just supposed to be a different role when they build like that? Because I've got the impression that they're just inferior to mine (not trying to brag, since I adjusted it on personal tastes so it's nothing pro or stuff), still everyone's doing it so there must be a reason.
Well I don't see the point of stacking HP since your sustain is not lifesteal or anything scaling. I'd rather much reduce the impact of hits on my HP% by taking little damage than by having still more HP. Better relative healing with W and R, easier to control my HP% for equilibrium, better defense against stuff like Kog, DFG, Madred...
I for myself prefer Irelia builds with around 2,5k HP and heavy resistances (= 200+ each AR / MR vs balanced team obv; if they have one-sided damage you can just stack AR or MR) because I wanna be the one the enemy hates being a pain in the neck in the centre of their line up!
It's not about being the main tank, but I love Qing into the opponent's rat pack at the very beginning of a fight and forcing them to decide between "wasting" their CC on me or letting me slowly dish out decent sustained damage (decent because my only damage items are Trinity Force and Wit's End mostly) that will cost them the fight in the end.
However, this strategy becomes less effective the more tankier the enemy team is.
Philo-Hog -> Triforce -> Wit's End -> GA or QSS, ggnore. I still don't know how Utah manages to be successful with his build. Irelia is like WW in that you gain so much more from resists than HP because you innately gain so much HP back in fights via your abilities, so the whole warmog's investment makes no sense to me since it's basically spending 3K gold to make sure that you don't die in the first 2 seconds of a teamfight, when I already don't have that problem.
Well it doesn't hurt that having just Negatron leads me to having 100/100.
As for why it works, it's mostly because Irelia as a kit lends itself to my preferred playstyle, I think. When it comes down to it (and some of the people that've seen my hero complaining in skype can attest) the only things I really ask for in a hero is the ability to punish positioning, force them to make decisions about killing me (causes coordination errors), and the ability to punish them for leaving me alive. Irelia has a very good dash + semi-CC that makes it so I can usually catch someone and either rake them down for a lot of HP very quickly before just turning around and backing off or I force a fight because they think they can kill me - even if they can, ideally I'd have necessitated so much firepower that my team can come in and clean house.
In the end it doesn't really matter to me "what's the best way of optimizing her kit," she just has a fantastic kit for "doing what I need" while also having the added bonus of basically never losing a lane except against a very select few heroes.
Edit: Like, I'd developed the habit of not actually trusting other people to start the fight, and I also don't really expect others to be in position when I do start one, so I've generally always favored forcing an engagement to happen and then being able to eat one or two full salvos before my team is able to engage. It leads to a lot of silly deaths but that's just how I play :|
I mean, with Philo-HoG-Triforce-Mercs, I'm in the 80-90 armor and 90-100 mres ranges with like 2-2.5K HP, then I add GA and I'm tanky as hell and do eleventy million damages that are impossible to escape from, while still being pretty impossible to kill. *shrugs*, I still initiate a lot with philo-hog-trifroce-mercs and an unfinished GA and I don't feel like I'm vulnerable doing so.
I just don't like Triforce in general, as a survival item, lol. So when it comes to the best combination of EHP + damage output it just turns out to be Atmog, unless someone comes up with a better set :p
Edit: For whatever it's worth I started just rushing Atma's Impaler and THEN buying the pieces of Warmog, as Atma provides a decent bit of damage even without any extra HP.
Tank is a pretty shaky definition. The way I see it building tankier lets you go for their squishies more bravely because you take less damage, but reduces your actual threat factor. Vs a team with highly protected carries you can more easily get focused down with trinity force builds. The only thing is irelias passive scales so insanely well with movement speed because if you can't be cc'd you can just run away from damage if they try to focus you and burst people down if that don't. But if they have supression or something it's a different story.
also the better you can stick to a target the more you heal yourself. So trinity kinda gives her alot of different things. I think the worst thing she can face is high burst damage if she goes trinity. Sth like wits end into atmogs can't be wrong to get IMO.
I'm seeing a lot more greaves and tabi instead of merc treads because of tenacity buff to eleisa's miracle. It gives her more options instead of mandatory getting MR boots
Don't know if you guys have seen the Chaox marathon vids, but I've seen about half of them and his Irelia video is my favorite. He basically 1v5 the opposing team, who fed off his bad teammates. Really fun game to watch.
on top lane champions, if the opposing team is running an AD bruiser top and an AD jungler, it's a ninja tabi game. I feel like I'd rarely ever want zerker's + miracle instead of getting mercs and saving for a stronger lategame item than Miracle after Philostone has outgrown it's usefulness. Tabi are strong enough late in the game that I feel ok making that concession for them, but zerkers aren't bringing anything I care that much about to the table.
In one game I had as Irelia with another one on the opposing team, whi played tanky with atmogs and all, he admittedly was the biggest problem on their team because he was just unkillable and could stay in hitting us, with his teammates carry free to attack us if we didn't ignore him. Then we realized that his damage output was limited and that w/o the attention he drew by diving us and allowing his carries to focus ours he didn't threaten us at all, while I was able to 1v1 all of them (even him, he'd just be damn long) with my triforce/ghostblade build, even to 1v2 some pairs. So I just asked Malz to suppress Irelia and Cait to not give a fuck and auto-attack their carries without worrying. Just diving Tristana and Kayle in the middle of their team was enough to make them shift their focus w/o their "tank" able to distract us, and we won all of those teamfights 5 to 0 or 1 everytime.
It was the most extreme example, but every game I had playing Irelia with one on the enemy team as well that went atmogs I just felt I was more threatening than him, and generally doing a better job as an assassin (passive + FoN + more movespeed made my Q some kind of a free taunt everytime I dived back in). Granted, that's normals, and I'm not playing that great, so they may have been plain worse too.
That's generally what I find happens. People are conditioned to be afraid of Irelia because of how strong and bursty she is with Triforce that when she goes atmogs they still think of her as the same level threat when she actually does significantly less damage.
Well the problem for us was "do we let her hit us not that hard, but for a long time, or do we focus her and get hit harder by the carries?". She wasn't a threat, she was just annoying, whereas whenever I dived their carry they knew they'd have to focus me or peel me if they didn't want him to die. The suppression only allowed us to kill the carry unhindered, and then she wouldn't pose a threat all by herself. While, even without Caitlyn, I'd still be menacing to them (not 1v4 obviously, but focusing Malz would mean run the risk of almost instantly losing one squishy to me).
Granted, that Irelia had like 3.7K HP but 105 arm/res max, while I had only 2500 HP but 180 in each def. But since you're limited to 6 slots...
Just coming in here to say I think Akali completely destroys Irelia in lane, so if I ever think I'm cool enough to pull that off again on stream, someone please remind me that some totally mediocre Akali went like 50-0 in lane vs. me.
I always go W > E. She just hits you too fucking hard and you can't retaliate vs. her W. Unless I horribly misplayed the matchup (entirely possible), it just seems like you're in trouble starting at level 2 and from there you're screwed for way too long and it just snowballs.
The problem is, your initial spell combo always gives you a false hope of the damage you can do against her and you never really get a chance to get off many autos, so it's a case of comboing her and then backing off, hoping that she won't try to answer with some damage of her own. Hardly ever works out that way though. Unless you really want to commit to killing her with your ult and ignite or whatever. Then you have to hope to get lucky and hit her in her smoke screen with the ult...
Are you running full MR page? Like, if you have MR quints, blues, and start null magic-->Chalice I don't see what she can do to push you out of lane. Akali falls off a lot against bruisers after first few levels. Everytime she gets you lower with harass you can just E to stun and W, 2 hits of that, Q if you're lucky and have the mana when she stealths, and then once her stealth is on CD she can't really get free trades off you.
Not totally sure, but never remember having problems against akali.
The thing with akali is you want to trade with 1 CD of her Q but run away before she gets the second, it gets a bit crazy when she hits 6 though. Also if akali gets ahead and you can't afford to try to fight back you're kinda screwed.
You should see reginalds akali vs hotshot udyr, hotshot was almost dying trying to farm at tower but once he had full health even though he didn't get any cs (enough for boots and longsword) once they were both full he started winning trades.
And yeah, maxing anything before W is pretty stupid. Lifesteal is 1000x better in t.lane than in teamfights, where you heal for like maybe 100 for the important part of the teamfigh
I would try maxing Q/E over W against Akali to be honest. I dun think you can win the sustain fight, so you're better off trying to counterburst her. IMO anyways.
Edit: Not as a solution obviously, just a thought.
On October 01 2011 01:18 Slayer91 wrote: Are you running full MR page? Like, if you have MR quints, blues, and start null magic-->Chalice I don't see what she can do to push you out of lane. Akali falls off a lot against bruisers after first few levels. Everytime she gets you lower with harass you can just E to stun and W, 2 hits of that, Q if you're lucky and have the mana when she stealths, and then once her stealth is on CD she can't really get free trades off you.
Not totally sure, but never remember having problems against akali.
The thing with akali is you want to trade with 1 CD of her Q but run away before she gets the second, it gets a bit crazy when she hits 6 though. Also if akali gets ahead and you can't afford to try to fight back you're kinda screwed.
You should see reginalds akali vs hotshot udyr, hotshot was almost dying trying to farm at tower but once he had full health even though he didn't get any cs (enough for boots and longsword) once they were both full he started winning trades.
And yeah, maxing anything before W is pretty stupid. Lifesteal is 1000x better in t.lane than in teamfights, where you heal for like maybe 100 for the important part of the teamfigh
I'm running my generalized tanky runes which give me like 52 or 54 or something starting mres. I opened regrowth, which may have been part of the problem, and it also might've been the case that I tried to commit to a fight and then saw their shaco coming and started running and got destroyed, but it just snowballs so hard after that that I saw no way back into the lane and got raped for the entire game.
How are you counter-bursting her though? If she runs up and Q->autos you and then uses W to hide, by the time her W is up, her Q will be back off cooldown so even if you Q->E her, she's getting 2 rounds of skills to your one. I'm pretty sure she's going to win those trades.
Also Smash I was in that game (I was the Kennen on the other team that kinda sucked it up). I felt a little bad.
Don't be inside the shroud then :< Or buy a ward. I don't really see that aspect of vs Akali any different than any other hero.
With regards to Irelia I just don't think W gives enough HP back fast enough to deal with Akali's burst. You can sit there autoattacking all day and I think her Q alone is enough to pick you down faster. Just wouldn't mathematically work. I was just suggesting that maybe counter-bursting would be more effective at equalizing than trying to out-sustain it.
*shrugs* they happen, I accept that I'll have games like that sometimes. I just usually feel like there's some way back into a lane, but every time I thought there was an opening, there was actually some sort of gay ass shaco gank coming to rape me sideways. oh well, maybe I'll try playing the matchup again the next time it presents itself, but after that match, I just feel more inclided to just go GP/Jarman/Pantheon when I see an akali, you know, someone who can poke without committing.
@Utah: mathematically, trying to trade bursts doesn't work out in your favor either. Irelia's burst numbers pre-6 aren't really that great and it's pretty impossible to even pull them off realistically vs. cloud.
On October 01 2011 02:03 arnath wrote: How are you counter-bursting her though? If she runs up and Q->autos you and then uses W to hide, by the time her W is up, her Q will be back off cooldown so even if you Q->E her, she's getting 2 rounds of skills to your one. I'm pretty sure she's going to win those trades.
Also Smash I was in that game (I was the Kennen on the other team that kinda sucked it up). I felt a little bad.
As I said, E to stun her when she hits q on you. Run away when she shrouds the CD is pretty long and once it's down you can even just Q on top of her if you feel like you're that strong.
Maxing W isn't just about the extra AD, the healing is huge, especially combined with massive resists.
people's skepticism is leading me to believe I may have just botched it too hard early and then played poorly from behind (as I always do). I will try the matchup again when it presents itself and try to play it tighter.
akali fucks irelia hard early on. then you get max level w and spirit visage or whatever and now akali cant touch you without dying. if you keep buying gold/10 items she can keep harassing. good thing lasthitting under tower is ezmode with irelia lol.
I might've only lost to an Irelia once as Jax and I think it was due to some good ganks. Despite that, I don't think it's that bad. I think she can win but she'll totally need MR runes maybe dodge boots and some other things?
I mean part of it was some bad play on my part, but there was a point where his Leap + Empower combo was doing 15-20% of my health every time he did it which let him basically nuke me down to 1/3 health and then go for the kill at will. I'm running the 34 armor page, not the 34 MR one. Should I basically be ignoring him and trying to go for farm?
Prior to the nerf and my page he just stomped me so all I could do was try to farm, but then I tried to gank and fell behind especially when he went through our jungle to gank and people ignored my futile calls of JAX IS COMING JAX IS COMING GET YOUR MUSKETS!!!11 but yeah that matchup is one of the very few that Irelia struggles with from start to finish.
I consider myself as having won a lane if after the laning phase ends, I'm more useful to my team than my lane opponent is to theirs. The problem with specifically defining it is that some heroes are just worse in a lane matchup. For example on Kassadin you're going to lose in CS to 90% of heroes but you can still arguably win your lane matchup by playing well.
Yes, and from my perspective/experience my point was that if you're not careful as Irelia Jax shits all over her in lane and comes out with guns ablazin'. In a melee vs melee lane all 3 tend to go together.
Been able to do fairly well against talon at 1500 elo.
Level 1-3, I simply play passively as it seems like talon has a slight advantage of being able to push harder, thus having more creeps to back him up. 4-7ish, I just trade hits whenever he tries to harass me with his combo as my q is just in range of him as soon as silence wears off. Past level 7-8, I feel that I can outright dominate my lane with my sustain.
R>W>E>Q
I start doran's shield, cloth+boots and pots+ward my first trip back (I usually waste teleport whenever my lane is being pushed and to start harassing him before he gets his brutaliser). Then wriggles>typical route. I feel that irelia benefits from armor as most talons rush brutaliser.
On October 07 2011 03:41 arnath wrote: This doesn't come up much, but what's worth buying on Irelia once you already have Boots 2, HoG, Philo, Trinity Force, Wit's End, and GA?
I like Fon and Randuins dependant on armor/MR needs. Reverie is actually pretty nice if you went mercs and Elisa's Miracle if you went tabi. Mostly thats fairly expected build paths from the items you have but by that point it shouldnt really matter, if you feel immortal and have too much money black cleaver probably works.
On October 03 2011 11:16 rwrzr wrote: What do you consider "winning" your lane.
A) Zone B) Higher CS C) A in-lane Kill
Obviously D) All of the above would be most desirable, but if you had to rank them WHAT WOULD YOU DO BRO?
EDIT: Simply put, is having higher CS enough to "win"
If you're zoning, you had better be higher in CS, also. Zoning inherently implies a level advantage and a CS advantage. Usually you also have a kill advantage too if you're able to zone in a 1v1.
On October 03 2011 11:16 rwrzr wrote: What do you consider "winning" your lane.
A) Zone B) Higher CS C) A in-lane Kill
Obviously D) All of the above would be most desirable, but if you had to rank them WHAT WOULD YOU DO BRO?
EDIT: Simply put, is having higher CS enough to "win"
If you're zoning, you had better be higher in CS, also. Zoning inherently implies a level advantage and a CS advantage. Usually you also have a kill advantage too if you're able to zone in a 1v1.
Not always in my opinion. A strong laner might be able to outzone a not so strong laner, in early levels of a yorick vs. irelia lane yorick can be incredibly annoying and eventually be able to zone and getting great lane control.
Zoning will eventually grant you a level advantage (in most cases atleast) and a CS advantage tho.
I consider winning my lane using the following formula:
(CS + 20xChamp Kills + 5xAssists +70*Tower Downs) The one who has the higher is winning. Since tower is very important for the whole team and not just as for you, you might want to change the multiplier. You might want to put some level advantage multiplier somewhere, but in general, it should be already accounted in the CS/Champion kills.
Thinking again, wits end+fon+warmogs is probably best bet since you get more damage and banshees I don't like at all on melees. Just get an atmas and banshee after or something. GA I don't like too much vs magic but I Guess it works.
BTW guys, just an aside on yorick vs irelia, you NEED to go 21 defense versus him. I used to have easy times against him since I always went 21 defense and then when I switch to 0/9/21 which is more US style I played vs this random yorick and he felt so OP and I couldn't touch him. If you think about it, with -4 damage taken from each minion that adds up to a LOT over the course of his harass.
Wriggles for a surefire easy laning phase against garen. Cloth+5 into wriggles. You don't even need boots. Try to stun him when he uses Q but if not just make sure you have W activated and just right click him while he spins since you can't run from him anyway, even though you lose the trade you heal and he doesn't and he can't fight without his CD's
Wriggles+Wits end+Trinity works well, you have strong sustained healing and you kill people as fast as an assassin so your q almost works like an escape bruiser+kill squishy.
On October 17 2011 10:23 Slayer91 wrote: Wriggles for a surefire easy laning phase against garen. Cloth+5 into wriggles. You don't even need boots. Try to stun him when he uses Q but if not just make sure you have W activated and just right click him while he spins since you can't run from him anyway, even though you lose the trade you heal and he doesn't and he can't fight without his CD's
Wriggles+Wits end+Trinity works well, you have strong sustained healing and you kill people as fast as an assassin so your q almost works like an escape bruiser+kill squishy.
Hmm didn't even think of Wriggles, I normally go Cloth+5 HPots, Tabi, Phage, then Wit's end(AP) or Atmas(AD) into either Tri force if more damage needed or GA for more tankiness.
Maybe I just need to get used to her but I feel like nearly everyone just gets to push her around in lane, likely just me being used to Akali/Galio.
On October 17 2011 10:23 Slayer91 wrote: Wriggles for a surefire easy laning phase against garen. Cloth+5 into wriggles. You don't even need boots. Try to stun him when he uses Q but if not just make sure you have W activated and just right click him while he spins since you can't run from him anyway, even though you lose the trade you heal and he doesn't and he can't fight without his CD's
Wriggles+Wits end+Trinity works well, you have strong sustained healing and you kill people as fast as an assassin so your q almost works like an escape bruiser+kill squishy.
Hmm didn't even think of Wriggles, I normally go Cloth+5 HPots, Tabi, Phage, then Wit's end(AP) or Atmas(AD) into either Tri force if more damage needed or GA for more tankiness.
Maybe I just need to get used to her but I feel like nearly everyone just gets to push her around in lane, likely just me being used to Akali/Galio.
Your feelings of inadequacy are exactly the opposite of what you should be feeling when picking Irelia against most lanes. Remember you are a mid- to late-game beast.
On October 10 2011 20:56 Slayer91 wrote: Thinking again, wits end+fon+warmogs is probably best bet since you get more damage and banshees I don't like at all on melees. Just get an atmas and banshee after or something. GA I don't like too much vs magic but I Guess it works.
BTW guys, just an aside on yorick vs irelia, you NEED to go 21 defense versus him. I used to have easy times against him since I always went 21 defense and then when I switch to 0/9/21 which is more US style I played vs this random yorick and he felt so OP and I couldn't touch him. If you think about it, with -4 damage taken from each minion that adds up to a LOT over the course of his harass.
FoN is entirely useless and overcosted for the value. Just get multiple negatrons.
On October 10 2011 20:56 Slayer91 wrote: Thinking again, wits end+fon+warmogs is probably best bet since you get more damage and banshees I don't like at all on melees. Just get an atmas and banshee after or something. GA I don't like too much vs magic but I Guess it works.
BTW guys, just an aside on yorick vs irelia, you NEED to go 21 defense versus him. I used to have easy times against him since I always went 21 defense and then when I switch to 0/9/21 which is more US style I played vs this random yorick and he felt so OP and I couldn't touch him. If you think about it, with -4 damage taken from each minion that adds up to a LOT over the course of his harass.
FoN is entirely useless and overcosted for the value. Just get multiple negatrons.
On October 10 2011 20:56 Slayer91 wrote: Thinking again, wits end+fon+warmogs is probably best bet since you get more damage and banshees I don't like at all on melees. Just get an atmas and banshee after or something. GA I don't like too much vs magic but I Guess it works.
BTW guys, just an aside on yorick vs irelia, you NEED to go 21 defense versus him. I used to have easy times against him since I always went 21 defense and then when I switch to 0/9/21 which is more US style I played vs this random yorick and he felt so OP and I couldn't touch him. If you think about it, with -4 damage taken from each minion that adds up to a LOT over the course of his harass.
FoN is entirely useless and overcosted for the value. Just get multiple negatrons.
Wut
to be fair, half the cost of fon goes into health regen which isn't nearly as useful as flat mr in a battle, but for a solo top irelia where sustain is king, fon is a great investment.
Being able to survive stupid amounts of poke is definitely high value maybe you guys are too used to solo queue when fights happen randomly around the map and its fun to have trinity force to kill everyone but force of nature is definitely not overcosted. In 5 man standoff fights at towers dragons and barons (i.e every single fight in competitive 5's) regen is very useful.
Against AP carries who are usually poke heavy and limited by mana pools FoN is pretty brutal because anyone with void staff can burst you down if you're low health while FoN keeps you high health while having stupid amounts of EHP against magical.
On October 10 2011 20:56 Slayer91 wrote: Thinking again, wits end+fon+warmogs is probably best bet since you get more damage and banshees I don't like at all on melees. Just get an atmas and banshee after or something. GA I don't like too much vs magic but I Guess it works.
BTW guys, just an aside on yorick vs irelia, you NEED to go 21 defense versus him. I used to have easy times against him since I always went 21 defense and then when I switch to 0/9/21 which is more US style I played vs this random yorick and he felt so OP and I couldn't touch him. If you think about it, with -4 damage taken from each minion that adds up to a LOT over the course of his harass.
I've played against Yorick a couple of times as Irelia (21-0-9), and both times I found his constant harass to be negligible after level 3. I open with a vamp scepter, QWWEQR (I might have grabbed another W at level 5, I don't remember). It's pretty easy to keep your health up just by autoattacking his stupid ghosts and minions. Once you get a sheen and get to level 6, you can engage Yorick freely and own him.
On October 10 2011 20:56 Slayer91 wrote: Thinking again, wits end+fon+warmogs is probably best bet since you get more damage and banshees I don't like at all on melees. Just get an atmas and banshee after or something. GA I don't like too much vs magic but I Guess it works.
BTW guys, just an aside on yorick vs irelia, you NEED to go 21 defense versus him. I used to have easy times against him since I always went 21 defense and then when I switch to 0/9/21 which is more US style I played vs this random yorick and he felt so OP and I couldn't touch him. If you think about it, with -4 damage taken from each minion that adds up to a LOT over the course of his harass.
I've played against Yorick a couple of times as Irelia (21-0-9), and both times I found his constant harass to be negligible after level 3. I open with a vamp scepter, QWWEQR (I might have grabbed another W at level 5, I don't remember). It's pretty easy to keep your health up just by autoattacking his stupid ghosts and minions. Once you get a sheen and get to level 6, you can engage Yorick freely and own him.
I dunno, it was only one game where he seemed strong. Might be the yorick player that was good had good runes or whatever. I also feel like fast sheen destroys yorick but I'd have to play it more.
btw lol good luck chill irelia is a 6300 IP champ so you're not going to be able to buy her as soon as free week is gone (I assume is free week for her?)
I actually think irelia is the only 6300 champ I own but definitely one of my favourites.
Irelia used to be my favourite char but now i just dont see a reason to play her anymore .
She cannot force anyone out of the lane, she is not the best afk farmer , she doesnt counter anyone but she can be countered :/. The only reason why irelia is still good for me is beeing the most mobile "tank" in game. Other then that if i want to farm i pick Nasus or Gp, if i want to be aggresive i pick Garen/Renekton.
Also i have yet to lose a lane versus irelia as garen. He seems like super hard counter to her unless he gets ganked early .
On November 01 2011 03:18 Makavw wrote: Irelia used to be my favourite char but now i just dont see a reason to play her anymore .
She cannot force anyone out of the lane, she is not the best afk farmer , she doesnt counter anyone but she can be countered :/. The only reason why irelia is still good for me is beeing the most mobile "tank" in game. Other then that if i want to farm i pick Nasus or Gp, if i want to be aggresive i pick Garen/Renekton.
Also i have yet to lose a lane versus irelia as garen. He seems like super hard counter to her unless he gets ganked early .
Irelia is flexible enough to spec vs. anyone. She doesn't win many lanes, but she doesn't lose the way Nasus or Singed can, and she has comparable power when farmed. Lol @ farming with GP, on equal farm, Irelia takes a massive massive dump on GP.
Irelia is my go-to safe pick in lane. She can just spec balls out defensive and arrive on lane with like 70 Armor vs. Garen/Pantheon/Talon with 5 hp pots and just outsustain them until wriggle's and then she just fucks them in the face. You can literally just outspec whoever you're laning against and get your farm vs. ANYONE, which transistions into her retarded mid-late game.
She's a really stupid character, but I love Irelia and I can't believe people bitch about her power (it's STILL fucking absurd).
I've been away from the game for about 4 or 5 months, and it seems like basically no one plays her anymore, which makes no sense. I know that the absurd healing component from her ult was toned down, but she still doesn't die easily with all her other healing. I played her a few times over the weekend and was just running through teams like shit through a goose.
Oh, and for those that care: my preferred "should be suicide, but isn't suicide because Irelia is still OP, team-diving build" (I guess it's technically a modified Atlanta build):
This leaves you with an open slot and a vamp scepter to play with. If you've made it this far, you probably have pretty much won or will win because you're so damned tough to kill. The vamp scepter should be turned into either a bloodthirster or starks. I typically build it out last after I fill the open slot. Candidates for the open slot include +AS weapons (AS is always good on a late game Irelia for W scaling) and last whisper for armor penetration. In most cases, you won't need any more defense-oriented items.
I'm a big fan of the school of thought that Irelia doesn't really need much in terms of +HP items because she heals so much in fights. I'd guess that, in late game fights, she probably heals for 1500-2000+ hp during each fight from her R, autoattacks with W, and vamp from Q use. That's a shitton when you consider that she has roughly 200/180 armor/mres.
If you're jungling, use the same build (maybe AS reds instead), but open cloth+5hp => wriggles, WQWEQR. You can start at blue if you get a leash.
On November 01 2011 03:24 Mogwai wrote: She's a really stupid character, but I love Irelia and I can't believe people bitch about her power (it's STILL fucking absurd).
Yea I had a pretty stupid game with irelia. The rest of my team couldn't be relied upon, but I was able to carry a ranked game. It was rather ridiculous, the heimer I laned against never got any HP items, let me free farm, and pretty much kill him whenever I wanted (only killed him twice in lane though). When the enemies had a chance to stop me early, they didn't, which let me be a beast and carry my team. Up until the last teamfight where we ended it, I had 20 kills out the 26 total.
On November 01 2011 03:18 Makavw wrote: Irelia used to be my favourite char but now i just dont see a reason to play her anymore .
She cannot force anyone out of the lane, she is not the best afk farmer , she doesnt counter anyone but she can be countered :/. The only reason why irelia is still good for me is beeing the most mobile "tank" in game. Other then that if i want to farm i pick Nasus or Gp, if i want to be aggresive i pick Garen/Renekton.
Also i have yet to lose a lane versus irelia as garen. He seems like super hard counter to her unless he gets ganked early .
Irelia is flexible enough to spec vs. anyone. She doesn't win many lanes, but she doesn't lose the way Nasus or Singed can, and she has comparable power when farmed. Lol @ farming with GP, on equal farm, Irelia takes a massive massive dump on GP.
Irelia is my go-to safe pick in lane. She can just spec balls out defensive and arrive on lane with like 70 Armor vs. Garen/Pantheon/Talon with 5 hp pots and just outsustain them until wriggle's and then she just fucks them in the face. You can literally just outspec whoever you're laning against and get your farm vs. ANYONE, which transistions into her retarded mid-late game.
She's a really stupid character, but I love Irelia and I can't believe people bitch about her power (it's STILL fucking absurd).
=/
i hear such passionate praise about irelia but i've never seen her perform that well. when laning against her i found it to be such an easy win even back when she was considered 'broken'. now that i'm playing as her i just can't seem find her place. she doesn't have the ridiculous early game of garen, the broken midgame of nidalee, the unstoppable lategame of jax. at the same time her mediocrity at all stages of the game don't add up to her being 'versatile'. i was talking to spud about this earlier and he also doesn't find her to be too strong either.
maybe i'm just that bad at the game.
also, how do you beat AP with stuns as irelia (sion, ryze, even kennen).
On November 01 2011 03:18 Makavw wrote: Irelia used to be my favourite char but now i just dont see a reason to play her anymore .
She cannot force anyone out of the lane, she is not the best afk farmer , she doesnt counter anyone but she can be countered :/. The only reason why irelia is still good for me is beeing the most mobile "tank" in game. Other then that if i want to farm i pick Nasus or Gp, if i want to be aggresive i pick Garen/Renekton.
Also i have yet to lose a lane versus irelia as garen. He seems like super hard counter to her unless he gets ganked early .
Irelia is flexible enough to spec vs. anyone. She doesn't win many lanes, but she doesn't lose the way Nasus or Singed can, and she has comparable power when farmed. Lol @ farming with GP, on equal farm, Irelia takes a massive massive dump on GP.
Irelia is my go-to safe pick in lane. She can just spec balls out defensive and arrive on lane with like 70 Armor vs. Garen/Pantheon/Talon with 5 hp pots and just outsustain them until wriggle's and then she just fucks them in the face. You can literally just outspec whoever you're laning against and get your farm vs. ANYONE, which transistions into her retarded mid-late game.
She's a really stupid character, but I love Irelia and I can't believe people bitch about her power (it's STILL fucking absurd).
=/
i hear such passionate praise about irelia but i've never seen her perform that well. when laning against her i found it to be such an easy win even back when she was considered 'broken'. now that i'm playing as her i just can't seem find her place. she doesn't have the ridiculous early game of garen, the broken midgame of nidalee, the unstoppable lategame of jax. at the same time her mediocrity at all stages of the game don't add up to her being 'versatile'. i was talking to spud about this earlier and he also doesn't find her to be too strong either.
maybe i'm just that bad at the game.
also, how do you beat AP with stuns as irelia (sion, ryze, even kennen).
AP with stuns? Flat MRes Glyphs, Flat MRes Quints, 0/21/9, open regrowth, rush philo -> Merc's + Wit's End.
Garen early game is Garen early game. Irelia can very easily spec and build to never lose a lane to Garen and by the time she gets wriggle's, he can't do fucking anything. Irelia 1v1 murders Nidalee midgame AND is stronger in teamfights (by a mile too, it's not even close). Nidalee gives more mobility but, w/e, it's fucking Nidalee. Jax's "unstoppable" late game is something I've still yet to fucking see. Most overrated phase on any character ever. Irelia does more in your standard teamfight than Jax will and doesn't require you to build an entire fucking team around all-inning on Jax's lategame.
I dunno man, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say. When I play Irelia, I feel like I cannot lose a lane hard enough to hurt my team because I can build whatever I need to stop the opposing damage and just get my farm and then in teamfights I can alternately peel and kill tanks or dive and kill carries regardless of my build at that point in time due to her crazy ass kit.
Irelia does have some hard lanes, but I feel like Nasus is one of the only champions who "counters" Irelia. Nasus will never die and simply free farm his Q.
On November 02 2011 05:47 Sandster wrote: Irelia does have some hard lanes, but I feel like Nasus is one of the only champions who "counters" Irelia. Nasus will never die and simply free farm his Q.
Every Irelia counter is a soft counter. It's shit like, "Nasus will also free farm and farmed Nasus is probably a little better than farmed Irelia," or like, "Pantheon will be up 20 CS by 10 minutes before Irelia catches up and starts zoning him," or like, "Teemo will put damage on Irelia's tower if she doesn't get gank presence when he overextends." That's why I love her when I have to blind first pick top lane. There are a number of counters, but none of them are as fucking retarded as stuff like GP >>>> Nasus, Lee Sin >>>>>> Akali, or <Generic good solo lane ranged carry> >>>>>>>> Singed.
On November 02 2011 05:47 Sandster wrote: Irelia does have some hard lanes, but I feel like Nasus is one of the only champions who "counters" Irelia. Nasus will never die and simply free farm his Q.
Every Irelia counter is a soft counter. It's shit like, "Nasus will also free farm and farmed Nasus is probably a little better than farmed Irelia," or like, "Pantheon will be up 20 CS by 10 minutes before Irelia catches up and starts zoning him," or like, "Teemo will put damage on Irelia's tower if she doesn't get gank presence when he overextends." That's why I love her when I have to blind first pick top lane. There are a number of counters, but none of them are as fucking retarded as stuff like GP >>>> Nasus, Lee Sin >>>>>> Akali, or <Generic good solo lane ranged carry> >>>>>>>> Singed.
I agree, but a Nasus with 300+ on Q before 20min is pretty freaking scary =/
Better question is - their team first picks Irelia, who would be your pick against her? Nasus would be near the top of that list (depending on team comp).
On November 02 2011 05:47 Sandster wrote: Irelia does have some hard lanes, but I feel like Nasus is one of the only champions who "counters" Irelia. Nasus will never die and simply free farm his Q.
Every Irelia counter is a soft counter. It's shit like, "Nasus will also free farm and farmed Nasus is probably a little better than farmed Irelia," or like, "Pantheon will be up 20 CS by 10 minutes before Irelia catches up and starts zoning him," or like, "Teemo will put damage on Irelia's tower if she doesn't get gank presence when he overextends." That's why I love her when I have to blind first pick top lane. There are a number of counters, but none of them are as fucking retarded as stuff like GP >>>> Nasus, Lee Sin >>>>>> Akali, or <Generic good solo lane ranged carry> >>>>>>>> Singed.
I agree, but a Nasus with 300+ on Q before 20min is pretty freaking scary =/
Better question is - their team first picks Irelia, who would be your pick against her? Nasus would be near the top of that list (depending on team comp).
I don't know if this is still the case, but Rumble, Renekton, Malzahar, and Caitlyn (trap whore and range abuse) were all heroes that that I found more difficult to deal with 4-5 months ago. I understand that Rumble has been nerfed. Not sure about the others.
Depends on the elo. At like < 1700, I pick Pantheon because I have no respect for your run of the mill Irelia who's almost certainly gonna open regrowth and come to lane with 25 armor vs. Pantheon. Higher elo, it's a trickier question. Teemo or Nasus IMO. Nasus unless they have one of his retarded teamfight counters like Ashe or Anivia, Teemo otherwise. Oh, or if you're SmashGizmo, you go Jarman the Fourth because he's your best character and does just fine vs. Irelia.
gangplank outdoes irelia at pretty much every part of the game top lol, their jungler will need to camp your lane just to let irelia keep up in levels.
On November 02 2011 06:16 Brees wrote: gangplank outdoes irelia at pretty much every part of the game top lol, their jungler will need to camp your lane just to let irelia keep up in levels.
On November 02 2011 06:16 Brees wrote: gangplank outdoes irelia at pretty much every part of the game top lol, their jungler will need to camp your lane just to let irelia keep up in levels.
I'll play you in it, let's go.
how can we take into account my ability to help any lane/dragon fight without leaving lane though?
lol, we can't, I'm just saying that unless you're a metric fuckton better than every GP I've ever played against, you will not outlevel me without assists from your ult and I will eventually pull ahead in farm and lane dominance.
well you've seen my gangplank, its not to be taken lightly. im slightly drooling at the prospect of actually getting to use my ult in my own lane so i think ill take you up on the offer
On November 02 2011 08:39 HazMat wrote: I side with Inept. Tell me when you play this so I can watch :O
record it and post it on this thread. i usually don't have problems against gp past lvl 3 as he can't really harass me without taking more damage from her combo, especially when there's a ranged creep next to him which can refresh my q (1400-1500 elo). wriggles help a lot also. however, there may be a better way to win this matchup that i'd like to know
GP just straight up does retarded amounts of parlays >.> It's hella troublesome for Irelia if GP hits level 2 before Irelia has stun and then GP just straight up kills her.
I don't really know what would be the best from Irelia's point of view. I guess I might just take stun at level 1 and then use health potion to sustain through parlayy harass. That way even if gp hits level 2 he can't actually do any aggro unless he takes level 2 orange.
Dblade Mercs if you need them otherwise CDR boots Extra Dblade if needed Wriggles otherwise Youmuu's if you can get away with it Triforce
is this yours or inepts? because if it's yours your can put it in the GP thread as it has no relevance here.
edit, from GP thread:
On November 02 2011 16:20 Ruken wrote: How are you guys all owning solo top? I know the build and I know the runes...but how the hell do you play it? I know he's a beast lategame with items but I can never farm enough safely. Irelia starts with cloth 5 pots and owns me. Sion owns me.
Q doesn't do enough, i can win some sustained fights but not all of them.
wtf are you doing giving advice and asking for it at the same time?
unrelated to first part:
@Smash - i'd be willing to go nidalee v irelia too. i've never lost to an irelia going into the midgame on at least equal footing (meaning a jungler didn't camp top and babysit her).
my original post wasn't meant as a challenge to your statement. i really am confused as to why people think she's top tier and from experience i haven't seen her perform that well. i'd like to learn her but i don't even know if it's worth it. she just seems so below average at everything. even that offer to go 1v1 i hope to use as an opportunity to learn her because she really is in shit-tier from what i can tell.
also regarding jax - there's been times when i lose lane something terrible and i still end up pounding people's faces in. i'm not sure how you think he's overrated because from experience (both as and against) he's like the one hero that is almost guaranteed to be given the game reaches the later stages (aka very often).
I dunno I think a good gangplank and nidalee can do fine against irelia I'd say irelia has an advantage against both after level 9 but she does that versus everyone.
As for helping your team with gangplank ultimate, yeah, pirate stupid bullshit champion. I'd want to just pick some weird counterpick to gp like jax who just shits on him in lane cause of dodges and is enough of a carry that if he wins his lane is makes up for pirate ult.
On November 02 2011 16:38 bosiddon wrote: irelia vs karma
who will win
world will implode due to awesomeness.
but really, Karma would probably win mid, Irelia would probably win top, assuming halfway decent junglers. Karma needs to extend way too far to do the early level zoning she needs in the matchup and a good jungler will fuck her face in @ top lane for that, but assuming she can do that shit she beats up on most melees (not Gangplank though, that fucker rapes her).
On November 02 2011 17:32 De4ngus wrote: irelia can beat nidalee and gp l0l
armor runes -> wriggles or whatever armor you want -> win
you make a fair point good sir. and mres rune -> mres beats all AP carries right? De4ngus, revolutionizing the game one post at a time.
i think you're starting to get it :D
haha.
honestly though i'm not as interested in the inherent matchups as much as i am in the potential of the hero. i have no doubt in my mind that my nidalee will 100% of the time beat irelias who don't have extensive experience with the hero. but i don't care about that and am instead curious as to see how she fares in the hands of someone who remotely knows what they are doing. having played irelia a few times i can see glimpses of her having the huge skill ceiling. unfortunately, i've just never seen it manifest itself in my play nor in the play of others. it's to the point where i'm starting to question if maybe what others have said have biased my perspective a little too much.
ok, I highly highly highly recommend 0/21/9, with ignite instead of TP in certain matchups. Also resistance quints instead of ArPen/Movespeed. I also run Attack Speed instead of ArPen on my marks, but this is a preference thing.
How do you lane against casters top? I've seen Ryze, Swain, and Sion top, and one bizarre case with a full AP orianna that I couldn't lane against at all. I tend to open mantle+2pots -> boots -> 2nd mantle, but in some cases I was zoned hard early on making it hard to get wit's end in any timely manner. Sion especially gives me trouble. I ran 0/9/21 without MR quints, so that may be why.
I think wriggles is a "get it only if you need it" item. If you are already winning your lane, a phage by level 9 is garenteed to let you snowball off it.
On November 03 2011 00:58 Sandster wrote: How do you lane against casters top? I've seen Ryze, Swain, and Sion top, and one bizarre case with a full AP orianna that I couldn't lane against at all. I tend to open mantle+2pots -> boots -> 2nd mantle, but in some cases I was zoned hard early on making it hard to get wit's end in any timely manner. Sion especially gives me trouble. I ran 0/9/21 without MR quints, so that may be why.
null + 2 is such an underwhelming opening. Open regrowth vs. non-skillshot APs and just try to outlast their harass, and open boots vs. skillshot APs, using bladesurge to dodge shit. Pad your MR later, NMM is a bad opening.
On November 03 2011 00:40 Mogwai wrote: ok, I highly highly highly recommend 0/21/9, with ignite instead of TP in certain matchups. Also resistance quints instead of ArPen/Movespeed. I also run Attack Speed instead of ArPen on my marks, but this is a preference thing.
what does your item build usually look like?
I vouch for the 0 21 9 build, makes her lane sustainability that much stronger. I'm not a dedicate top laner so I haven't invested in Resist Quints but I'd imagine they make laning vs Irelia a real bitch after level 5.
On November 03 2011 00:58 Sandster wrote: How do you lane against casters top? I've seen Ryze, Swain, and Sion top, and one bizarre case with a full AP orianna that I couldn't lane against at all. I tend to open mantle+2pots -> boots -> 2nd mantle, but in some cases I was zoned hard early on making it hard to get wit's end in any timely manner. Sion especially gives me trouble. I ran 0/9/21 without MR quints, so that may be why.
null + 2 is such an underwhelming opening. Open regrowth vs. non-skillshot APs and just try to outlast their harass, and open boots vs. skillshot APs, using bladesurge to dodge shit. Pad your MR later, NMM is a bad opening.
I don't think regrowth works vs rumble, but any mana-limited spellcaster can be bottlenecked like this early on yeah.
You can always be boss and open NMM followed by another NMM. One for merc treads and another for GA/Wit's end. Huehue.
On November 03 2011 00:55 redtooth wrote: i've tried a variety of stuff. - wriggles -> triforce - rushing atmogs - my nidalee build (eleisa + swiftness + triforce)
the first one was most successful. when i have time i'll give your suggestions a shot.
your builds probably also have something to do with it. wriggle's usually forces your hand into wit's end -> tanking out as a follow up because you don't really have the time to spec straight to triforce before you need to tank out.
Atmog's is ghetto, idgaf what Utah says, lol. Irelia's best offensive scaling is with attack speed and her best defensive scaling is with resists, why would you do a build made to tank out via HP and access strong AD ratios at the same time when she scales better with the complete opposite? It doesn't make sense on paper.
Irelia doesn't run away as well as Nidalee does, you can't pull shit like that on Irelia.
On November 03 2011 00:58 Sandster wrote: How do you lane against casters top? I've seen Ryze, Swain, and Sion top, and one bizarre case with a full AP orianna that I couldn't lane against at all. I tend to open mantle+2pots -> boots -> 2nd mantle, but in some cases I was zoned hard early on making it hard to get wit's end in any timely manner. Sion especially gives me trouble. I ran 0/9/21 without MR quints, so that may be why.
null + 2 is such an underwhelming opening. Open regrowth vs. non-skillshot APs and just try to outlast their harass, and open boots vs. skillshot APs, using bladesurge to dodge shit. Pad your MR later, NMM is a bad opening.
I don't think regrowth works vs rumble, but any mana-limited spellcaster can be bottlenecked like this early on yeah.
You can always be boss and open NMM followed by another NMM. One for merc treads and another for GA/Wit's end. Huehue.
I dunno mang, that's what I do vs. rumble. but I'm running double flat MRes on Glyphs and Quints in that scenario, so maybe that's what it is. so much of my Irelia success feels like my speccing vs. my lane matchup. I mean, I have fucking 7 rune pages I use in top lane :p.
On November 03 2011 00:55 redtooth wrote: i've tried a variety of stuff. - wriggles -> triforce - rushing atmogs - my nidalee build (eleisa + swiftness + triforce)
the first one was most successful. when i have time i'll give your suggestions a shot.
your builds probably also have something to do with it. wriggle's usually forces your hand into wit's end -> tanking out as a follow up because you don't really have the time to spec straight to triforce before you need to tank out.
Atmog's is ghetto, idgaf what Utah says, lol. Irelia's best offensive scaling is with attack speed and her best defensive scaling is with resists, why would you do a build made to tank out via HP and access strong AD ratios at the same time when she scales better with the complete opposite? It doesn't make sense on paper.
Irelia doesn't run away as well as Nidalee does, you can't pull shit like that on Irelia.
On November 03 2011 00:58 Sandster wrote: How do you lane against casters top? I've seen Ryze, Swain, and Sion top, and one bizarre case with a full AP orianna that I couldn't lane against at all. I tend to open mantle+2pots -> boots -> 2nd mantle, but in some cases I was zoned hard early on making it hard to get wit's end in any timely manner. Sion especially gives me trouble. I ran 0/9/21 without MR quints, so that may be why.
null + 2 is such an underwhelming opening. Open regrowth vs. non-skillshot APs and just try to outlast their harass, and open boots vs. skillshot APs, using bladesurge to dodge shit. Pad your MR later, NMM is a bad opening.
I don't think regrowth works vs rumble, but any mana-limited spellcaster can be bottlenecked like this early on yeah.
You can always be boss and open NMM followed by another NMM. One for merc treads and another for GA/Wit's end. Huehue.
I dunno mang, that's what I do vs. rumble. but I'm running double flat MRes on Glyphs and Quints in that scenario, so maybe that's what it is. so much of my Irelia success feels like my speccing vs. my lane matchup. I mean, I have fucking 7 rune pages I use in top lane :p.
What a whore... 6 pages of Armor/MR quint... and an Akari page. Real.
On November 03 2011 00:58 Sandster wrote: How do you lane against casters top? I've seen Ryze, Swain, and Sion top, and one bizarre case with a full AP orianna that I couldn't lane against at all. I tend to open mantle+2pots -> boots -> 2nd mantle, but in some cases I was zoned hard early on making it hard to get wit's end in any timely manner. Sion especially gives me trouble. I ran 0/9/21 without MR quints, so that may be why.
null + 2 is such an underwhelming opening. Open regrowth vs. non-skillshot APs and just try to outlast their harass, and open boots vs. skillshot APs, using bladesurge to dodge shit. Pad your MR later, NMM is a bad opening.
I don't think regrowth works vs rumble, but any mana-limited spellcaster can be bottlenecked like this early on yeah.
You can always be boss and open NMM followed by another NMM. One for merc treads and another for GA/Wit's end. Huehue.
I just want to note something about Tap's advice.
He played Irelia against Rumble top, opened null mantle, first buy was Negatron, and still gave up a kill and was down 10 cs. Rumble literally sat outside of tower range, stood still, and pressed Q after a few levels. Point being, Tapioca is #1 Irelia.
Actually, how does that matchup go? I figure if Irelia can not die and keep up in farm, she's done her job.
On November 03 2011 00:58 Sandster wrote: How do you lane against casters top? I've seen Ryze, Swain, and Sion top, and one bizarre case with a full AP orianna that I couldn't lane against at all. I tend to open mantle+2pots -> boots -> 2nd mantle, but in some cases I was zoned hard early on making it hard to get wit's end in any timely manner. Sion especially gives me trouble. I ran 0/9/21 without MR quints, so that may be why.
null + 2 is such an underwhelming opening. Open regrowth vs. non-skillshot APs and just try to outlast their harass, and open boots vs. skillshot APs, using bladesurge to dodge shit. Pad your MR later, NMM is a bad opening.
I don't think regrowth works vs rumble, but any mana-limited spellcaster can be bottlenecked like this early on yeah.
You can always be boss and open NMM followed by another NMM. One for merc treads and another for GA/Wit's end. Huehue.
I just want to note something about Tap's advice.
He played Irelia against Rumble top, opened null mantle, first buy was Negatron, and still gave up a kill and was down 10 cs. Rumble literally sat outside of tower range, stood still, and pressed Q after a few levels. Point being, Tapioca is #1 Irelia.
Actually, how does that matchup go? I figure if Irelia can not die and keep up in farm, she's done her job.
welcome to all rumble matchups. character is just a fucking AP Garen. cheesy motherfuckers.
Irelia butchers him post wit's end, it's just about getting wit's end.
On November 03 2011 00:58 Sandster wrote: How do you lane against casters top? I've seen Ryze, Swain, and Sion top, and one bizarre case with a full AP orianna that I couldn't lane against at all. I tend to open mantle+2pots -> boots -> 2nd mantle, but in some cases I was zoned hard early on making it hard to get wit's end in any timely manner. Sion especially gives me trouble. I ran 0/9/21 without MR quints, so that may be why.
null + 2 is such an underwhelming opening. Open regrowth vs. non-skillshot APs and just try to outlast their harass, and open boots vs. skillshot APs, using bladesurge to dodge shit. Pad your MR later, NMM is a bad opening.
I don't think regrowth works vs rumble, but any mana-limited spellcaster can be bottlenecked like this early on yeah.
You can always be boss and open NMM followed by another NMM. One for merc treads and another for GA/Wit's end. Huehue.
I just want to note something about Tap's advice.
He played Irelia against Rumble top, opened null mantle, first buy was Negatron, and still gave up a kill and was down 10 cs. Rumble literally sat outside of tower range, stood still, and pressed Q after a few levels. Point being, Tapioca is #1 Irelia.
Actually, how does that matchup go? I figure if Irelia can not die and keep up in farm, she's done her job.
I call shenanigans on the fact that I don't play solotop and those 10 cs were as a result of me being bad at last hitting and not because of Rumble's presence. I would have missed those 10 cs vs Nasus bot garenteed.
My death also a result of me being greedy and isn't indicative of the matchup. It's like if Casseiopia runs up into Annie for no reason while she has tibbers, stun and ignite up and dies, but that doesn't mean Annie > Cass.
In all other words, I'm just bad at playing solo lanes.
Also, Smash advocates Wit's end vs Rumble. I win Ghandi. GG
In my defense, I was actually trying to BEAT rumble not just survive the lane. I thought if I went to lane with like 90 MR that I can actually kill or cripple him before he gets to level 5 where his shit starts becoming stupid. That didn't pan out.
On November 03 2011 03:19 Juicyfruit wrote: In my defense, I was actually trying to BEAT rumble not just survive the lane. I thought if I went to lane with like 90 MR that I can actually kill or cripple him before he gets to level 5 where his shit starts becoming stupid. That didn't pan out.
I would argue that Rumble's shit "starts becoming stupid" before level 5 (not to mention that Irelia doesn't kick in that well before then either).
But I don't really play top lanes that often, so what do I know.
On November 03 2011 00:58 Sandster wrote: How do you lane against casters top? I've seen Ryze, Swain, and Sion top, and one bizarre case with a full AP orianna that I couldn't lane against at all. I tend to open mantle+2pots -> boots -> 2nd mantle, but in some cases I was zoned hard early on making it hard to get wit's end in any timely manner. Sion especially gives me trouble. I ran 0/9/21 without MR quints, so that may be why.
null + 2 is such an underwhelming opening. Open regrowth vs. non-skillshot APs and just try to outlast their harass, and open boots vs. skillshot APs, using bladesurge to dodge shit. Pad your MR later, NMM is a bad opening.
I don't think regrowth works vs rumble, but any mana-limited spellcaster can be bottlenecked like this early on yeah.
You can always be boss and open NMM followed by another NMM. One for merc treads and another for GA/Wit's end. Huehue.
I just want to note something about Tap's advice.
He played Irelia against Rumble top, opened null mantle, first buy was Negatron, and still gave up a kill and was down 10 cs. Rumble literally sat outside of tower range, stood still, and pressed Q after a few levels. Point being, Tapioca is #1 Irelia.
Actually, how does that matchup go? I figure if Irelia can not die and keep up in farm, she's done her job.
I call shenanigans on the fact that I don't play solotop and those 10 cs were as a result of me being bad at last hitting and not because of Rumble's presence. I would have missed those 10 cs vs Nasus bot garenteed.
My death also a result of me being greedy and isn't indicative of the matchup. It's like if Casseiopia runs up into Annie for no reason while she has tibbers, stun and ignite up and dies, but that doesn't mean Annie > Cass.
In all other words, I'm just bad at playing solo lanes.
Also, Smash advocates Wit's end vs Rumble. I win Ghandi. GG
i told you to open boots and get spirit visage because thats what i used to end up 40 cs of rumble in the tourney but nope tap never listens. instead i have to kill you over and over again with you starting mantle and building negatron before boots(wtf).
If I died with MR cloak, god help me if I started with boots. You outcs'ed that rumble because you're good at Irelia. I would have had comparable cs too if I wasn't just plain missing them. Not to mention we didn't have any junglers.
If you let me practice that matchup a few more times (since I don't play solotop except when I get stuck with it) I would have eventually made it work with my build.
Spirit visage is just an unnecessary delay on a core item and wit's end is a way better mid-game item; I still don't understand to this day your reasoning for getting it.
On November 03 2011 03:01 Mogwai wrote: I wrote that before you edited. Attack Speed is Irelia. Period. I think arpen better on all other auto-attackers.
i'm surprised how i don't see many irelias going attack speed boots especially when they build philo, which they can upgrade to the tenacity item later.
On November 03 2011 03:01 Mogwai wrote: I wrote that before you edited. Attack Speed is Irelia. Period. I think arpen better on all other auto-attackers.
i'm surprised how i don't see many irelias going attack speed boots especially when they build philo, which they can upgrade to the tenacity item later.
Irelia is not a ranged AD carry who needs every bit of DPS, so berserker's on her is not really great. She's better off with an item like Wit's End for increasing AS, and leaving boots for +defense. Her base speed is pretty good so she doesn't need to rush to lvl 2 boots, and there are just much better overall mid/late game items for boosting AS on Irelia (Wit's End, Triforce).
Eleisa's is not a bad item for Irelia, but I would go with Ninja Tabi for boots in that case. But overall I would rather go something like Wriggles + HoG over Eleisa's + Ninja Tabi if I needed lane sustain and +gold.
On November 03 2011 03:01 Mogwai wrote: I wrote that before you edited. Attack Speed is Irelia. Period. I think arpen better on all other auto-attackers.
i'm surprised how i don't see many irelias going attack speed boots especially when they build philo, which they can upgrade to the tenacity item later.
Irelia is not a ranged AD carry who needs every bit of DPS, so berserker's on her is not really great. She's better off with an item like Wit's End for increasing AS, and leaving boots for +defense. Her base speed is pretty good so she doesn't need to rush to lvl 2 boots, and there are just much better overall mid/late game items for boosting AS on Irelia (Wit's End, Triforce).
Eleisa's is not a bad item for Irelia, but I would go with Ninja Tabi for boots in that case. But overall I would rather go something like Wriggles + HoG over Eleisa's + Ninja Tabi if I needed lane sustain and +gold.
Personally, I'm not a fan of building wit's end against an ad champ like gp or jarvan, and I usually don't rush triforce after phage. It's all very situational depending on the matchup (I feel like irelia is one of the most flexible champions as she can be extremely fragile or downright dominating in certain matchups). Although I feel that ninja tabi is an option in the case against an ad, I'd only get it when I'm losing my lane and depending on their team comp. But if there's a potential to win my matchup, I feel that berserker's is a strong choice before or after wriggles. And lvl 2 boots help a lot because she of her fast base movement speed imo. Imagine auto attacking 2-3 times after q'ing someone with the attack speed bonus from berserker's early in lane.
As for philo vs hog, philo lets me harass and/or last hit under tower almost indefinitely (I love making the most of her w by refreshing her q on a ranged minion behind the opponent for a sure stun followed by w+autoattacks and dash+more autoattacks when he backs up). I usually get GA over randuin's for armor anyway.
On November 03 2011 03:01 Mogwai wrote: I wrote that before you edited. Attack Speed is Irelia. Period. I think arpen better on all other auto-attackers.
i'm surprised how i don't see many irelias going attack speed boots especially when they build philo, which they can upgrade to the tenacity item later.
Irelia is not a ranged AD carry who needs every bit of DPS, so berserker's on her is not really great. She's better off with an item like Wit's End for increasing AS, and leaving boots for +defense. Her base speed is pretty good so she doesn't need to rush to lvl 2 boots, and there are just much better overall mid/late game items for boosting AS on Irelia (Wit's End, Triforce).
Eleisa's is not a bad item for Irelia, but I would go with Ninja Tabi for boots in that case. But overall I would rather go something like Wriggles + HoG over Eleisa's + Ninja Tabi if I needed lane sustain and +gold.
Personally, I'm not a fan of building wit's end against an ad champ like gp or jarvan, and I usually don't rush triforce after phage. It's all very situational depending on the matchup (I feel like irelia is one of the most flexible champions as she can be extremely fragile or downright dominating in certain matchups). Although I feel that ninja tabi is an option in the case against an ad, I'd only get it when I'm losing my lane and depending on their team comp. But if there's a potential to win my matchup, I feel that berserker's is a strong choice before or after wriggles. And lvl 2 boots help a lot because she of her fast base movement speed imo. Imagine auto attacking 2-3 times after q'ing someone with the attack speed bonus from berserker's early in lane.
As for philo vs hog, philo lets me harass and/or last hit under tower almost indefinitely. I usually get GA over randuin's for armor anyway.
I think the simplest response to this is that pro-streamers never ever get berserker's, while many of them do get Wit's End.
Now a better explanation: the reason Berserker's is avoided is because it's an item that only gives +dps but no defensive benefits (other than obvious movement speed). Overall, Irelia is best when every +dps item she gets also helps her defense. In fact, every item Irelia gets should add to her defense, with 2 or 3 of them also boosting her dps.
Almost any build, even troll builds, are viable when you're winning the matchup. No one cares about what to build when you're ahead, even though it's generally accepted that you can ignore defense for a while and keep increasing your offense. This information is mostly useless and actually hurts lower-level players, who just try to pile up DPS when they are already behind.
Wit's End is worth it against Jax or gp since both of them can do substantial magic damage. Also, the items significantly boosts your magic damage output, something Irelia lost with her changes.
EDIT: Well might as well post something about Irelia. I tried CDRrelia a few times with okay results. 0/21/9 with nimble and tp mastery, going flash/tp. Armor or MR quints depending on lane, apen/armor or dodge/3 mr + scaling cdr quints. With FH/SR you can get 40% cdr at level 18. Whole idea behind this is to splitpush and it was good when team actually splitpushed because I can take anyone on 1v1 and usually even 1v2 and they have to commit a LOT to chase/kill you.
As one might think this won't give you good amount of burst damage with standard triforce. I tried to farm it but since it was pubs there wasn't that much coordination so with some kills and various tower/dragon gold I think I only had a sheen (you also need a negatron usually because only mr you'll have is from mercs.
I don't think this is really that great over standard build but it has its uses... you're tanky and deal damage via spells. Still don't feel like it's worth it since you aren't as much a threat. Maybe other have tried and found something else about it. It should be noted that your ult is on a 24 second cd so maybe instead of going to triforce you can go straight for damage items to make use of your Q/R better.
I was almost damn certain that wickd uses hp regen quints, flat magic resist and armour. Phreak looking at his runes seems to confirm the same thingHe runes some weird mix of like 18 defense and rest utility because he wants the mana regen since he doesn't get philo.
I actually am not so sure about null magic any more, it's cool having lots of magic resist at level 1 but the % decrease in damage is pretty tiny to the massive increase in health regen. Since vs spammable spell casters you take more damage to heal off hiten style anyway. The only exception is a matchup like jax where winning a trade against him means you basically win the lane since he has no sustain and you have sustain so getting regen and letting him win a trade might be worse because he can keep going on you but then that's theorycrafty, still the principle of getting resists versus a champion that doesn't have risk free harass makes sense because resists do give you slightly more sustain from hiten style as well, and its sustain that works in fights.
Also, I used to go 21 defense every game but I find myself using utility with nimbleness or SoS now simply because the only point I really like in the defense tree after the first few is the -4% reduced damage. Except in certain matchups the small health increase and less minion and physical damage is generally not very useful while CDR and movement speed are great stats and mana regen is great in lane enough to offset taking a bit more damage especially from minions.
I think the best way to get CDR irelia to work is just convert philo into shureylas pretty cost effectively and kill somebody to get blue buff with 21 utility, Boom, 40% cdr without having to do gimmicky ass builds. :D
I dislike trinity and frozen heart you're investing so much money into offense on a champion that works best jumping into 5 people with huge burst threat but having a passive and skillset that lets you get out and then get back in and stun someone and heal up if they focus you but you're tanky enough that you can get away. I prefer it on someone like Nasus who's more of a constant presence in a teamfight to keep the -AS reduction on and you have ultimate to keep you alive and you can't jump into their whole team either. CDR directly helps your survival based on whither uptime being higher on their AD carry.
On November 03 2011 03:01 Mogwai wrote: I wrote that before you edited. Attack Speed is Irelia. Period. I think arpen better on all other auto-attackers.
i'm surprised how i don't see many irelias going attack speed boots especially when they build philo, which they can upgrade to the tenacity item later.
Irelia is not a ranged AD carry who needs every bit of DPS, so berserker's on her is not really great. She's better off with an item like Wit's End for increasing AS, and leaving boots for +defense. Her base speed is pretty good so she doesn't need to rush to lvl 2 boots, and there are just much better overall mid/late game items for boosting AS on Irelia (Wit's End, Triforce).
Eleisa's is not a bad item for Irelia, but I would go with Ninja Tabi for boots in that case. But overall I would rather go something like Wriggles + HoG over Eleisa's + Ninja Tabi if I needed lane sustain and +gold.
Personally, I'm not a fan of building wit's end against an ad champ like gp or jarvan, and I usually don't rush triforce after phage. It's all very situational depending on the matchup (I feel like irelia is one of the most flexible champions as she can be extremely fragile or downright dominating in certain matchups). Although I feel that ninja tabi is an option in the case against an ad, I'd only get it when I'm losing my lane and depending on their team comp. But if there's a potential to win my matchup, I feel that berserker's is a strong choice before or after wriggles. And lvl 2 boots help a lot because she of her fast base movement speed imo. Imagine auto attacking 2-3 times after q'ing someone with the attack speed bonus from berserker's early in lane.
As for philo vs hog, philo lets me harass and/or last hit under tower almost indefinitely. I usually get GA over randuin's for armor anyway.
I think the simplest response to this is that pro-streamers never ever get berserker's, while many of them do get Wit's End.
Now a better explanation: the reason Berserker's is avoided is because it's an item that only gives +dps but no defensive benefits (other than obvious movement speed). Overall, Irelia is best when every +dps item she gets also helps her defense. In fact, every item Irelia gets should add to her defense, with 2 or 3 of them also boosting her dps.
Almost any build, even troll builds, are viable when you're winning the matchup. No one cares about what to build when you're ahead, even though it's generally accepted that you can ignore defense for a while and keep increasing your offense. This information is mostly useless and actually hurts lower-level players, who just try to pile up DPS when they are already behind.
Wit's End is worth it against Jax or gp since both of them can do substantial magic damage. Also, the items significantly boosts your magic damage output, something Irelia lost with her changes.
I never argued for or against anything under the premise "when I'm winning my lane" in case you were trying to compare my build to a troll build. The thing is..I usually only get wit's end when my opponent does magic damage, and wriggles when he does ad. I never try to get both. And I don't feel that the magic damage from wit's end is significant as you can't build against true damage, which most of her dps comes from, anyway.
As for the boots, it's just 25 defense you're sacrificing to optimize your damage output of her w for a beastly laning phase, and 25 defense in team fights won't matter that much. Of course, I'd never get berserker's if I plan on getting wit's end.
I find the main problem with berserkers is that ninja tabi and merc treads are so insanely efficient. Dodge you can't get anywhere and tenacity you can only get on absurdly overpriced items that take up an awkward space. (I'm not the biggest fan of eleisas since I'm of the opinion gold items should be avoided if you don't intend to finish the full item once you complete other core items although there are exceptions)
I mean it's been working fine in ~1500 elo where you usually don't finish 6 items and where laning phase is pretty much the determinant stage of the game. Probably not the best, but it does work.
On November 03 2011 03:01 Mogwai wrote: I wrote that before you edited. Attack Speed is Irelia. Period. I think arpen better on all other auto-attackers.
i'm surprised how i don't see many irelias going attack speed boots especially when they build philo, which they can upgrade to the tenacity item later.
Irelia is not a ranged AD carry who needs every bit of DPS, so berserker's on her is not really great. She's better off with an item like Wit's End for increasing AS, and leaving boots for +defense. Her base speed is pretty good so she doesn't need to rush to lvl 2 boots, and there are just much better overall mid/late game items for boosting AS on Irelia (Wit's End, Triforce).
Eleisa's is not a bad item for Irelia, but I would go with Ninja Tabi for boots in that case. But overall I would rather go something like Wriggles + HoG over Eleisa's + Ninja Tabi if I needed lane sustain and +gold.
Personally, I'm not a fan of building wit's end against an ad champ like gp or jarvan, and I usually don't rush triforce after phage. It's all very situational depending on the matchup (I feel like irelia is one of the most flexible champions as she can be extremely fragile or downright dominating in certain matchups). Although I feel that ninja tabi is an option in the case against an ad, I'd only get it when I'm losing my lane and depending on their team comp. But if there's a potential to win my matchup, I feel that berserker's is a strong choice before or after wriggles. And lvl 2 boots help a lot because she of her fast base movement speed imo. Imagine auto attacking 2-3 times after q'ing someone with the attack speed bonus from berserker's early in lane.
As for philo vs hog, philo lets me harass and/or last hit under tower almost indefinitely. I usually get GA over randuin's for armor anyway.
I think the simplest response to this is that pro-streamers never ever get berserker's, while many of them do get Wit's End.
Now a better explanation: the reason Berserker's is avoided is because it's an item that only gives +dps but no defensive benefits (other than obvious movement speed). Overall, Irelia is best when every +dps item she gets also helps her defense. In fact, every item Irelia gets should add to her defense, with 2 or 3 of them also boosting her dps.
Almost any build, even troll builds, are viable when you're winning the matchup. No one cares about what to build when you're ahead, even though it's generally accepted that you can ignore defense for a while and keep increasing your offense. This information is mostly useless and actually hurts lower-level players, who just try to pile up DPS when they are already behind.
Wit's End is worth it against Jax or gp since both of them can do substantial magic damage. Also, the items significantly boosts your magic damage output, something Irelia lost with her changes.
I never argued for or against anything under the premise "when I'm winning my lane" in case you were trying to compare my build to a troll build. The thing is..I usually only get wit's end when my opponent does magic damage, and wriggles when he does ad. I never try to get both. And I don't feel that the magic damage from wit's end is significant as you can't build against true damage, which most of her dps comes from, anyway.
As for the boots, it's just 25 defense you're sacrificing to optimize your damage output of her w for a beastly laning phase, and 25 defense in team fights won't matter that much. Of course, I'd never get berserker's if I plan on getting wit's end.
Berserker boots are pretty bad on Irelia, because wit's end (or zeal->triforce, if you can wait that long) complements Irelia better, because you have to be tanky. Think of champions that get wit's end as a core item - Udyr and Warwick. It's amazing for them (and Irelia) because 1) they scale off AS, and 2) they will be in the middle of fights and need to be tanky.
If you start Wriggle and skip gp5 items, it's hard to argue against Wit's End. Wriggle -> Triforce makes you too squishy and takes too long, and Wriggle -> more defense means you deal practically no damage. Wit's End is actually quite a good item here, and you should be getting it and merc threads/tabi boots right around when you're needed in team fights.
Forget what I said about berserker's XD. Didn't realize how much I was underestimating wit's end now that you bring up the point of wit's end being the core item for ww and udyr.
Could somebody tell me why nobody jungle's on Irelia? Her abilities seem almost perfect for jungling?
Q - Gap closer for ganks W - Self heal for in the jungle, extra damage on ganks E - Stun/Slow for ganks R - Tons of damage, easy to steal entire enemy camps with in the blink of an eye
After she was free to play last week i'm saving up points to buy her and try it out, is there any reason's why i shouldn't bother?
her clear speed is really mediocre. the only ability that's actually good in the jungle itself is W and it's main draw is dealing with high resists (not something you see in the jungle). She has no AoE (until ult) or high % uptime steroid for fast jungling.
On November 03 2011 23:57 romanov wrote: Could somebody tell me why nobody jungle's on Irelia? Her abilities seem almost perfect for jungling?
Q - Gap closer for ganks W - Self heal for in the jungle, extra damage on ganks E - Stun/Slow for ganks R - Tons of damage, easy to steal entire enemy camps with in the blink of an eye
After she was free to play last week i'm saving up points to buy her and try it out, is there any reason's why i shouldn't bother?
Her first run is a little slow, but that's it. She's a fairly safe jungler, and she scales well into the mid to late game. Most importantly, she's simply an incredibly versatile character with her skillset. She can jungle, she can solo top, she can be tough as shit to kill, and she can do damage.
If you're looking for a very strong, jack-of-all-trades type of champ, Irelia's a very good pick.
Irelia needs too much farm to be both a strong damage threat and tanky enough to do her job (run in and intiiate for the team).
If you want someone who goes in afterwards and bursts nocturne or xin zhao are much better picks. She's not the best for an initiate jungler pick either.
Rammus is the only one people play now out of those four and rammus I feel like has a weak initiate unless they are out of position, feels very forced. I think nocturne is the best jungle initiate right now.
eh, I guess. I mean, noct doesn't really initiate 5v5 teamfights the way the other guys can, he's all about picking off someone being a complete derp. he's crazy good in those situations though.
On November 03 2011 23:08 billy5000 wrote: As for the boots, it's just 25 defense you're sacrificing to optimize your damage output of her w for a beastly laning phase, and 25 defense in team fights won't matter that much. Of course, I'd never get berserker's if I plan on getting wit's end.
25 armor on someone like Irelia who can heal automatically during a fight is more significant than someone without this ability.
Let's say your opponent does 100 dmg each with attack, before armor. If you have 50 armor, you take 67 damage. If you have 75 armor, then you take 57 damage. That's a 15% reduction in damage.
Now let's say you have a comparable attack speed to your opponent, and you've maxed W. Now we are looking at 41 dmg vs 31 dmg, which is a reduction of 24%!
As damage and armor goes up over time, the % benefit will decrease, but we haven't even factored in the 12% dodge, which is something that scales perfectly over the entire game (unless they get a sotd).
On November 03 2011 23:08 billy5000 wrote: As for the boots, it's just 25 defense you're sacrificing to optimize your damage output of her w for a beastly laning phase, and 25 defense in team fights won't matter that much. Of course, I'd never get berserker's if I plan on getting wit's end.
25 armor on someone like Irelia who can heal automatically during a fight is more significant than someone without this ability.
Let's say your opponent does 100 dmg each with attack, before armor. If you have 50 armor, you take 67 damage. If you have 75 armor, then you take 57 damage. That's a 15% reduction in damage.
Now let's say you have a comparable attack speed to your opponent, and you've maxed W. Now we are looking at 41 dmg vs 31 dmg, which is a reduction of 24%!
As damage and armor goes up over time, the % benefit will decrease, but we haven't even factored in the 12% dodge, which is something that scales perfectly over the entire game (unless they get a sotd).
Sounds nice in theory, but I don't recall saying that I have absolutely no armor items by the time a team fight ensues. At that time, I usually have a chain vest ready to build into a GA. Assuming I have a chain vest and 50 base armor, I'll have 95 armor vs 120 armor (50+25+45) if I decided to go ninja tabi while continuing with the GA build. With the former items, I take ~49% damage reduction compared to the ~55% damage reduction I get with the latter. That's fairly insignificant, imo. Of course, while 12% dodge has its place, it really depends on their team comp.
On November 03 2011 23:08 billy5000 wrote: As for the boots, it's just 25 defense you're sacrificing to optimize your damage output of her w for a beastly laning phase, and 25 defense in team fights won't matter that much. Of course, I'd never get berserker's if I plan on getting wit's end.
25 armor on someone like Irelia who can heal automatically during a fight is more significant than someone without this ability.
Let's say your opponent does 100 dmg each with attack, before armor. If you have 50 armor, you take 67 damage. If you have 75 armor, then you take 57 damage. That's a 15% reduction in damage.
Now let's say you have a comparable attack speed to your opponent, and you've maxed W. Now we are looking at 41 dmg vs 31 dmg, which is a reduction of 24%!
As damage and armor goes up over time, the % benefit will decrease, but we haven't even factored in the 12% dodge, which is something that scales perfectly over the entire game (unless they get a sotd).
Sounds nice in theory, but I don't recall saying that I have absolutely no armor items by the time a team fight ensues. At that time, I usually have a chain vest ready to build into a GA. Assuming I have a chain vest and 50 base armor, I'll have 95 armor vs 120 armor (50+25+45) if I decided to go ninja tabi while continuing with the GA build. With the former items, I take ~49% damage reduction compared to the ~55% damage reduction I get with the latter. That's fairly insignificant, imo. Of course, while 12% dodge has its place, it really depends on their team comp.
Your argument is totally skewed. Using the same reasoning, I could say that I already have other +AS items by the time a team fight ensues. +25% AS is most useful early game, exactly the time when +25 armor is also the most useful. Because +AS scales off base AS, +25% AS is more like +12% AS late game.
Realistically speaking, you should be getting your level 2 boots long before you enter a team fight. You'll most likely be farming on top by yourself most of the time, and the ninja tabi just gives you a much better chance to dominate that lane.
And you really should look at effective health calculations vs damage per second when comparing the two. If you compare 95 armor vs 120 armor + 12% dodge, the latter gives you 28% more effective health.
And we haven't factored in synergy with W. Yes, Berserker's can give you ~5-20% more effective health, but the number is the greatest in the early game, where Ninja's Tabi will give you a much, much biggest boost in effective health.
On November 03 2011 23:08 billy5000 wrote: As for the boots, it's just 25 defense you're sacrificing to optimize your damage output of her w for a beastly laning phase, and 25 defense in team fights won't matter that much. Of course, I'd never get berserker's if I plan on getting wit's end.
25 armor on someone like Irelia who can heal automatically during a fight is more significant than someone without this ability.
Let's say your opponent does 100 dmg each with attack, before armor. If you have 50 armor, you take 67 damage. If you have 75 armor, then you take 57 damage. That's a 15% reduction in damage.
Now let's say you have a comparable attack speed to your opponent, and you've maxed W. Now we are looking at 41 dmg vs 31 dmg, which is a reduction of 24%!
As damage and armor goes up over time, the % benefit will decrease, but we haven't even factored in the 12% dodge, which is something that scales perfectly over the entire game (unless they get a sotd).
Sounds nice in theory, but I don't recall saying that I have absolutely no armor items by the time a team fight ensues. At that time, I usually have a chain vest ready to build into a GA. Assuming I have a chain vest and 50 base armor, I'll have 95 armor vs 120 armor (50+25+45) if I decided to go ninja tabi while continuing with the GA build. With the former items, I take ~49% damage reduction compared to the ~55% damage reduction I get with the latter. That's fairly insignificant, imo. Of course, while 12% dodge has its place, it really depends on their team comp.
Your argument is totally skewed. Using the same reasoning, I could say that I already have other +AS items by the time a team fight ensues. +25% AS is most useful early game, exactly the time when +25 armor is also the most useful. Because +AS scales off base AS, +25% AS is more like +12% AS late game.
Realistically speaking, you should be getting your level 2 boots long before you enter a team fight. You'll most likely be farming on top by yourself most of the time, and the ninja tabi just gives you a much better chance to dominate that lane.
And you really should look at effective health calculations vs damage per second when comparing the two. If you compare 95 armor vs 120 armor + 12% dodge, the latter gives you 28% more effective health.
And we haven't factored in synergy with W. Yes, Berserker's can give you ~5-20% more effective health, but the number is the greatest in the early game, where Ninja's Tabi will give you a much, much biggest boost in effective health.
On November 03 2011 03:01 Mogwai wrote: I wrote that before you edited. Attack Speed is Irelia. Period. I think arpen better on all other auto-attackers.
i'm surprised how i don't see many irelias going attack speed boots especially when they build philo, which they can upgrade to the tenacity item later.
Irelia is not a ranged AD carry who needs every bit of DPS, so berserker's on her is not really great. She's better off with an item like Wit's End for increasing AS, and leaving boots for +defense. Her base speed is pretty good so she doesn't need to rush to lvl 2 boots, and there are just much better overall mid/late game items for boosting AS on Irelia (Wit's End, Triforce).
Eleisa's is not a bad item for Irelia, but I would go with Ninja Tabi for boots in that case. But overall I would rather go something like Wriggles + HoG over Eleisa's + Ninja Tabi if I needed lane sustain and +gold.
Personally, I'm not a fan of building wit's end against an ad champ like gp or jarvan, and I usually don't rush triforce after phage. It's all very situational depending on the matchup (I feel like irelia is one of the most flexible champions as she can be extremely fragile or downright dominating in certain matchups). Although I feel that ninja tabi is an option in the case against an ad, I'd only get it when I'm losing my lane and depending on their team comp. But if there's a potential to win my matchup, I feel that berserker's is a strong choice before or after wriggles. And lvl 2 boots help a lot because she of her fast base movement speed imo. Imagine auto attacking 2-3 times after q'ing someone with the attack speed bonus from berserker's early in lane.
As for philo vs hog, philo lets me harass and/or last hit under tower almost indefinitely. I usually get GA over randuin's for armor anyway.
I think the simplest response to this is that pro-streamers never ever get berserker's, while many of them do get Wit's End.
Now a better explanation: the reason Berserker's is avoided is because it's an item that only gives +dps but no defensive benefits (other than obvious movement speed). Overall, Irelia is best when every +dps item she gets also helps her defense. In fact, every item Irelia gets should add to her defense, with 2 or 3 of them also boosting her dps.
Almost any build, even troll builds, are viable when you're winning the matchup. No one cares about what to build when you're ahead, even though it's generally accepted that you can ignore defense for a while and keep increasing your offense. This information is mostly useless and actually hurts lower-level players, who just try to pile up DPS when they are already behind.
Wit's End is worth it against Jax or gp since both of them can do substantial magic damage. Also, the items significantly boosts your magic damage output, something Irelia lost with her changes.
I never argued for or against anything under the premise "when I'm winning my lane" in case you were trying to compare my build to a troll build. The thing is..I usually only get wit's end when my opponent does magic damage, and wriggles when he does ad. I never try to get both. And I don't feel that the magic damage from wit's end is significant as you can't build against true damage, which most of her dps comes from, anyway.
As for the boots, it's just 25 defense you're sacrificing to optimize your damage output of her w for a beastly laning phase, and 25 defense in team fights won't matter that much. Of course, I'd never get berserker's if I plan on getting wit's end.
What I was trying to accomplish was to use berserker's as her main attack speed item. If I'm building triforce (which I rarely do nowadays) I usually getting zeal at the latest. This way, she can have enough sustain from wriggles and build tankier much faster.
this is somewhat of a QQ, but I'm never getting any other boots2 asides from merc treads from now on for Irelia. my ninja tabi + eleisa's miracle experiment has run its course because late game eleisa's is just too basic an item and I need the slot for something else. It's just a realization that for merc treads you're paying for tenacity instead of stats.
I'm surprised no one mentioned getting tabi and selling them for merc threads later. Tabi is ridiculously cheap and builds from your starting item (pretty much any matchup you'd consider tabi, you will start cloth +5), allowing you to get your big items that much quicker.
Of course, wriggle also builds from cloth so it's a tradeoff. But if you really want that movespeed then tabi can be very good.
On November 10 2011 06:28 Sandster wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned getting tabi and selling them for merc threads later. Tabi is ridiculously cheap and builds from your starting item (pretty much any matchup you'd consider tabi, you will start cloth +5), allowing you to get your big items that much quicker.
Of course, wriggle also builds from cloth so it's a tradeoff. But if you really want that movespeed then tabi can be very good.
when I get tabi, I usually keep tabi. tabi are really fucking good and it's not like it's a pain in the ass to just grab an eliza's miracle later on Irelia.
How do you guy decide whether to max Q or E after W? I've been maxing Q a lot since it feels like I get more burst with the extra auto Q applies and the lower CDR makes lasthitting easier. Also how do you guys think Irelia does vs Riven/Wukong/Talon/Renek top? In my experience Irelia goes even or shits on all of them after a certain level. But vs. Renek and Riven you really need to play passive early.
You get less burst. The extra auto it applies is also at level 1. The extra second stun on E and damage >> less cd on q when you fail your q on minion and you don't get it reset.
On November 12 2011 07:57 Slayer91 wrote: You get less burst. The extra auto it applies is also at level 1. The extra second stun on E and damage >> less cd on q when you fail your q on minion and you don't get it reset.
exactly, the extra damage you get from lvling Q up is not worth it when you can get an extra second on E.
Do what literally every team I ever face with an Irelia does: have their jungler camp the shit out of her lane for the first 10 minutes. Can't possibly have a bad early game with a perpetual 2v1.
Vs Renek need to be aggressive early and then just farm with your advantage. You outscale him but he definitely outright beats you 1v1 if you try to fight him. Vs Riven you basically need to just farm. She can abuse your earlygame too much and scales well too. But you're still irelia so trollolol Vs talon you just build armor and it's autowin for you. He had no sustain and without enough burst to kill you or with his rakes not doing enough damage you simply outlast him.
I usually get 2 lvls in q for lane but max e second. 1 more second on stun too strong.
On November 12 2011 08:51 BlackPaladin wrote: Vs Renek FARM WRIGGLES THEN ZONE HIM Vs FARM WRIGGLES THEN ZONE HER Vs talon FARM WRIGGLES THEN ZONE HIM
fixed.
Also, no fucking way you can beat a renekton early game playing aggressive. He's guaranteed to have creep advantage and can just constantly spam his shit while you'll run out of mana and your stun is only useful defensively.
Early as in lvl ~1-3, maybe only 2 depending on his spec/runes/opening item. As long as you don't act retarded and take a fury q to the face you can win those trades and farm up for wriggles.
And I don't think you played vs a good riven before if you think irelia can outright beat riven so hard that you can zone her. Maybe I just know Navi's riven and how riven should play in my mind too well though lol
Any way to survive against an Olaf who maxes E first and just zones you? I actually play Olaf myself (and some Irelia from time to time) at solo top and Irelia vs. Olaf seems like a pointless lane match-up.
On November 12 2011 08:51 BlackPaladin wrote: Vs Renek FARM WRIGGLES THEN ZONE HIM Vs FARM WRIGGLES THEN ZONE HER Vs talon FARM WRIGGLES THEN ZONE HIM
fixed.
Also, no fucking way you can beat a renekton early game playing aggressive. He's guaranteed to have creep advantage and can just constantly spam his shit while you'll run out of mana and your stun is only useful defensively.
On November 12 2011 11:12 BlackPaladin wrote: Early as in lvl ~1-3, maybe only 2 depending on his spec/runes/opening item. As long as you don't act retarded and take a fury q to the face you can win those trades and farm up for wriggles.
And I don't think you played vs a good riven before if you think irelia can outright beat riven so hard that you can zone her. Maybe I just know Navi's riven and how riven should play in my mind too well though lol
I've played both sides of the match up. Riven crushes irelia early levels super hard. Thats why you play defensively until you have wriggles. Unless riven also buys wriggles theres so way she can beat your massive sustain if you don't fuck up. Riven is somewhat vulnerable to ganks if she plays agressive because like talon and renek her spells push lane but she's weaker than both at escaping ganks especially after 6. Maybe she can keep even in lane despite your absurd armour and lifesteal but I doubt it, and if irelia gets a kill from gank or something the lane snowballs super hard and she zones you horribly. Even with wriggles though, armour stack combined with true damage and insane healing is just brutal.
Renek should also crush irelia early levels. I don't understand how you trade. What do you trade with? Your W does 15 damage at level 1 per auto hit, your E barely does damage, your q does decent damage but costs a lot of mana. Once renek hits level his E W Q E out has little to no counter because if you chase after him with Q you fight his creep wave also. I have no idea how you expect to beat a decent renek with boots with level 1 hiten style.
Honestly the general way to play irelia in all matchups is defensively farm until you get whatever item counters your lane opponent and level 4 hiten style. She is so good at farming to tower anyway. I also hate playing agressive pre 6 with anyone because early pushing your lane makes it very hard to safely cs because you have to go right close to tower and jungler will be level 4-5 with doublebuffs and looking for an easy unwarded lane to gank. After 6 at least you'll have wards and on irelia you actually have some real damage.
I actually agree with all of slayer's opinions on irelia matchups. Every early lane dominator, you just open cloth + 5, farm wriggle's and then fuck them in the face. Irelia with wriggle's is super duper fucking retarded, she gets like 50 hp/auto attack back so you can just pick fights and zone them with 130 armor off of just wriggle's + tabi and if you actually lose HP in trades... guess what!? while their shit's on CD, you can just keep autoing creeps for like 250 hp/5 level regen.
How does irelias CC reduction, tenacity, and juggernaught stack?
I was thinking 9/21/0 on irelia, getting the 3 AD, attack speed, 10% arpen and ghost/exhaust/ignite masteries.
Is everyone still taking flash or if the FotM factor and range and cd nerf making people switch to ghost? From what I hear about 21 offense AD junglers (boots+3 no pull clear on xin WTFFF) seems like flash would be just as needed as ever. Maybe ghost exhaust and exhaust that fucker.
Full attack speed marks combined with the 6% attack speed from offense and 10% arpen will probably make wriggles irelia even more absurd in lane. If you don't need wriggles its still OP because of wits end and hiten style + the 10% arpen works well with your ultimate and Q. (Also if you're going 21 offense executioner+your ultimate will probably hurt. Irelias ult does deceptively high damage. And by deceptively high I mean more than Lee sins ultimate and with 0.4 more AD ratio and 2.0 AP ratio)
They stack multiplicatively. So say 3 champions nearby (40% reduction on passive):
1 - {(1-0.4)*(1-.35)*(1-.1)} = 65% reduction. You get 61% without Juggernaut, so it's rather weak. Defense past 9 gives you 3 hp/5, 8% cdr at level 18, Initiator, and 1.5% damage reduction + Juggernaut. In offense past 9 you get 4%crit/Lethality, 6 armor pen, Executioner, and your choice of 3 points (probably Havoc). Either spec would work based on the lane matchup, but Lethality and Executioner are very good talents.
EDIT: I wonder how good Cleanse+Ghost is for a lane-sustain build. You are ridiculously hard to gank (removing the exhaust/ignites that would otherwise kill you), and late game with Cleanse up and 21/9/0 you are immune to cc (87% cc reduction for 4 seconds) and can initiate/dive/chase squishies like a boss with a Wit's End + tank build. Of course you already do that, but Cleanse/Ghost makes you even better at it.
On November 12 2011 07:24 zulu_nation8 wrote: How do you guy decide whether to max Q or E after W? I've been maxing Q a lot since it feels like I get more burst with the extra auto Q applies and the lower CDR makes lasthitting easier. Also how do you guys think Irelia does vs Riven/Wukong/Talon/Renek top? In my experience Irelia goes even or shits on all of them after a certain level. But vs. Renek and Riven you really need to play passive early.
should always max q before e. You only need the e for the stun. Rarely should you ever use E as an ability to do damage with.
the real question is whether or not to max Q or W first. It's usually based on how the game flow is going. Usually for me, I tend to be outlaning my opponents in solo lane pretty hard, so I actually prefer to max Q out first (with 1 point in w). But there are times where I know that I can not actually keep up in a solo lane against certain champions, I go for sustain, with W max first.
On November 12 2011 07:24 zulu_nation8 wrote: How do you guy decide whether to max Q or E after W? I've been maxing Q a lot since it feels like I get more burst with the extra auto Q applies and the lower CDR makes lasthitting easier. Also how do you guys think Irelia does vs Riven/Wukong/Talon/Renek top? In my experience Irelia goes even or shits on all of them after a certain level. But vs. Renek and Riven you really need to play passive early.
should always max q before e. You only need the e for the stun. Rarely should you ever use E as an ability to do damage with.
the real question is whether or not to max Q or W first. It's usually based on how the game flow is going. Usually for me, I tend to be outlaning my opponents in solo lane pretty hard, so I actually prefer to max Q out first (with 1 point in w). But there are times where I know that I can not actually keep up in a solo lane against certain champions, I go for sustain, with W max first.
This is not true at all. The extra stun/slow duration on E is very noticeable at higher levels. It's perfectly legitimate to only go 1-2 ranks of Q while maxing W/E; how you allocate points on Irelia should be completely based on the lane matchup.
On November 17 2011 03:44 Sandster wrote: They stack multiplicatively. So say 3 champions nearby (40% reduction on passive):
1 - {(1-0.4)*(1-.35)*(1-.1)} = 65% reduction. You get 61% without Juggernaut, so it's rather weak. Defense past 9 gives you 3 hp/5, 8% cdr at level 18, Initiator, and 1.5% damage reduction + Juggernaut. In offense past 9 you get 4%crit/Lethality, 6 armor pen, Executioner, and your choice of 3 points (probably Havoc). Either spec would work based on the lane matchup, but Lethality and Executioner are very good talents.
EDIT: I wonder how good Cleanse+Ghost is for a lane-sustain build. You are ridiculously hard to gank (removing the exhaust/ignites that would otherwise kill you), and late game with Cleanse up and 21/9/0 you are immune to cc (87% cc reduction for 4 seconds) and can initiate/dive/chase squishies like a boss with a Wit's End + tank build. Of course you already do that, but Cleanse/Ghost makes you even better at it.
Seems like juggernaught only worth it if you get tabi and don't get any tenacity then. I'd probably go for indominatable over health regen btw. I'm not a big fan of crit on irelia either, so the only thing I'm looking at is executioner and 6 arpen. Still might go for defense. I feel like -1.5% damage taken > 1.5% extra damage done for the same reasoning that armour on zerglings is better than attack and damage on marines is better than armour.
And yeah, E>Q most of the time. More damage, more useful. The only time you want more in Q is the reduced CD for chasing people. In lane E is definitely better to max.
Well Havoc is generally a pretty weak talent, and usually the last offense talent to look at for any AD-based champion, tied with Vampiricism for the 3% life steal. It's still not bad that bad when you combine auto+Q+auto with W up and Wit's End though, and with R.
Crit isn't very good on Irelia either but the talent is so broken that it's probably worth getting anyway. But honestly Executioner is why I would default to 21/9 as long as I can survive the early lane matchup.
I tried out jungling with Irelia in a few custom games and I was a bit surprised by how fast and easy she clears it now because of the new masteries. I went vamp scepter first and 21/9/0. I can't wait to try her out as a jungler in some real games tomorrow.
On November 22 2011 18:00 broz0rs wrote: I tried out jungling with Irelia in a few custom games and I was a bit surprised by how fast and easy she clears it now because of the new masteries. I went vamp scepter first and 21/9/0. I can't wait to try her out as a jungler in some real games tomorrow.
What runes did you run?
Edit: Tried a few customs myself. I ran 21/9/0 as well, and it wasn't rather fast or safe tbh, though I was using one of my lane runepages I think (something like armor yellows, ASP reds, MR/L blues and MS quints). Without leash on blue (custom game and all) I couldn't even do a full clear.
On November 22 2011 18:00 broz0rs wrote: I tried out jungling with Irelia in a few custom games and I was a bit surprised by how fast and easy she clears it now because of the new masteries. I went vamp scepter first and 21/9/0. I can't wait to try her out as a jungler in some real games tomorrow.
What runes did you run?
Edit: Tried a few customs myself. I ran 21/9/0 as well, and it wasn't rather fast or safe tbh, though I was using one of my lane runepages I think (something like armor yellows, ASP reds, MR/L blues and MS quints). Without leash on blue (custom game and all) I couldn't even do a full clear.
I'm new to jungling in general so I don't have a dedicated rune page unfortunately. I was using a standard AD carry rune page of ArPen reds, armor yellows, mres blues, and AD/ArPen quints. I just aim for 24 ArPen with runes and masteries. In any case, here's my route:
wraiths (smite), wolves, blue (smite), back (buy boots +1pot), red (smite), small golems. build is WQW. very easy clear imo
On December 05 2011 07:28 Cosmology wrote: Who can Irelia lane / not lane against top?
She can't lane against some bruisers like Udyr Xin Zhao or Olaf. They hurt so bad and you can't even try to trade with them because they should always outdamage you and they can sustain just like you. Its possible, but its really not a fun experience.
People who can sustain but go even with her just turn into a farming contest (Yorick Nasus imo). Some mages will absolutely destroy her as well, like Swain+Gragas. I main Swain as my AP mid, and he will destroy so many solo melee champs its not even funny.
On December 05 2011 07:28 Cosmology wrote: Who can Irelia lane / not lane against top?
She can't lane against some bruisers like Udyr Xin Zhao or Olaf. They hurt so bad and you can't even try to trade with them because they should always outdamage you and they can sustain just like you. Its possible, but its really not a fun experience.
People who can sustain but go even with her just turn into a farming contest (Yorick Nasus imo). Some mages will absolutely destroy her as well, like Swain+Gragas. I main Swain as my AP mid, and he will destroy so many solo melee champs its not even funny.
I'm pretty sure Trynd beats her too. You might be able to trade with him when his fury is down but once he gets a wriggle's it's almost impossible.
And of course Teemo counters her pretty hard. I don't think she has the damage output to really threaten Kennen either, although she can just farm against him.
On December 05 2011 07:28 Cosmology wrote: Who can Irelia lane / not lane against top?
She can't lane against some bruisers like Udyr Xin Zhao or Olaf. They hurt so bad and you can't even try to trade with them because they should always outdamage you and they can sustain just like you. Its possible, but its really not a fun experience.
People who can sustain but go even with her just turn into a farming contest (Yorick Nasus imo). Some mages will absolutely destroy her as well, like Swain+Gragas. I main Swain as my AP mid, and he will destroy so many solo melee champs its not even funny.
I'm pretty sure Trynd beats her too. You might be able to trade with him when his fury is down but once he gets a wriggle's it's almost impossible.
And of course Teemo counters her pretty hard. I don't think she has the damage output to really threaten Kennen either, although she can just farm against him.
See I'm not really afraid of Teemo as much. I know he can beat A LOT of melee champs top but I think Irelia stands a great chance against him. She can close the gap on him so quickly with Bladesurge and then ES him and get a few AAs in. I know he kills Garen since all he needs to do is blind Garen if he attempts to Q Teemo. Udyr is the exact same.
Never laned against Kennen. Interesting matchup but I think you need to kill him before he gets Gunblade or else it becomes near impossible to do so. Her passive makes MotS a little less useful luckily.
I laned against Trynd before. It did get progressively worse as the lane carried on. Had to use my ult a few times to keep the lane away from my tower.
I dunno I've beaten Teemos before but I always think they made a mistake and if they played properly I would lose. You need a lot of points in W since he's going to harass you every time you try to last hit and the poison really hurts, but if you don't have a lot of points in E then your harass is not going to do enough damage. And you can forget about jumping him after he hits level 6.
Kennen's stun isn't long, so it doesn't matter if it's a bit shorter since he gets to land a free shuriken either way. I only played this matchup once or twice so I'm not really sure but it seemed pretty even to me. I doubt she can kill Kennen before he gets his revolver/will though, since you have to kill him under the stun or he's just going to stun you and run away.
Against Trynd, once he hits level 2 with full fury he just spins at you and starts hitting you and you lose. Once he gets mocking shout it's even worse. If you have a way to deal with that then please share.
Best thing I can think of vs Trynd spinning at you it to trade until he puts you at lower health, then stun him and get a few shots in.
These minion changes have made getting counterpicked a lot worse. 1/2 damage done now means that people who only try to zone you out benefit even more.
On December 05 2011 09:07 Cloud9157 wrote: Best thing I can think of vs Trynd spinning at you it to trade until he puts you at lower health, then stun him and get a few shots in.
These minion changes have made getting counterpicked a lot worse. 1/2 damage done now means that people who only try to zone you out benefit even more.
I dunno, a 1 sec stun isn't really enough when he has a 35% crit chance from fury combined with the new masteries and 15 damage from bloodlust.
edit: also I did exactly that last game, I opened cloth 5, he opened boots 3, stunned him after he spun in at level 2, he still pooped on me :|
On December 05 2011 09:59 Brees wrote: 0o irelia is a hard counter to tryn. its like impossible to beat her unless you get some serious jungle help
Irelia does not hardcounter tryn. You really can't trade with tryndmere. YOu can farm as well as him though if you are good at positioning and use your Q only to "hit" slightly dangerous creeps. I don't think I ever pushed tryndmere out of a lane without a jungler. His max fury hits hard+mocking cry just takes out too much damage to trade.
Irelia is my favorite top lane however she just doesn't stack up well versus heroes like uydr and gp.
he can barely do damage to you once you get wriggle's/tabi and if he tries to play aggressive spin is always going to leave you with less hp then him so you can just immediately stun and then go to town on him with true damage and burst him down everytime.
On December 05 2011 10:11 Brees wrote: he can barely do damage to you once you get wriggle's/tabi and if he tries to play aggressive spin is always going to leave you with less hp then him so you can just immediately stun and then go to town on him with true damage and burst him down everytime.
On December 05 2011 10:11 Brees wrote: he can barely do damage to you once you get wriggle's/tabi and if he tries to play aggressive spin is always going to leave you with less hp then him so you can just immediately stun and then go to town on him with true damage and burst him down everytime.
And Tryndamere won't get a Wriggle's himself?
armor doesn't affect true damage or irelia's stun which are the 2 skills you max vs him.
My most played is tryn in solo q 1800-ish and ive yet to beat an irelia, its a stomp everytime. I can beat pretty much any other character.
Yeah, people don't seem to understand this about irelia; you just stack resists which counters building damage early on easily but if they do the same thing you don't care because of true damage, and you also sustain harder than them. Udyr does good against irelia because his tiger hits are magic damage and his W counters the true damage component. Most other champions just can't trade like that. Tryndamere doesn't trade nearly as hard as udyr and doesn't have the magic damage but he does have some healing, but nothing like udyrs W.
let me preface my comments with the fact that I hit 30 2 months ago and only have around 250 wins under my belt. take my suggestions with a grain of salt and let me know if i'm wrong
I have an easy time versus trynds as well. Just remember to only trade when you are at lower hp AND when w isnt on cooldown.
A typical exchange for me would look at this..
Trynd comes in and engage me with mocking shout or spin, i e when my hp is lower, then w autoattack till either he runs off or it expires. if trynd is still trading with u when w is finished and chase u, i e again and run off. i spec 9/21/0 and do not usually lose these trades.
i also strongly recommend opening W then E. if u take Q at 1 or 2 u are asking to get raped.
I used to run Irelia 0-21-9, because I'm a MS whore, and I built around mobility (every single item of the "final" build would buff mine and/or allow me to slow foes) to not only stick to people, but also be able to flee easily or go from one target to another. However, I've been advised to try stuff like FM/Wit's End/Atmas on her (not particularly all nor in that order), which is also great to stick to someone, but loses a lot on mobility (no FoN/Zeal for example, less CDR to just Q-E everyone trying to run away). Should I keep playing 0-21-9 to retain some MS, or just go outright 9-21-0 to max my attack speed with Wit's?
On December 05 2011 12:15 Alaric wrote: I used to run Irelia 0-21-9, because I'm a MS whore, and I built around mobility (every single item of the "final" build would buff mine and/or allow me to slow foes) to not only stick to people, but also be able to flee easily or go from one target to another. However, I've been advised to try stuff like FM/Wit's End/Atmas on her (not particularly all nor in that order), which is also great to stick to someone, but loses a lot on mobility (no FoN/Zeal for example, less CDR to just Q-E everyone trying to run away). Should I keep playing 0-21-9 to retain some MS, or just go outright 9-21-0 to max my attack speed with Wit's?
I go 21/9 with specs in MS. IMO 0/21/9 is the safest on irelia atm at top because it aloows you to assume any role you see fit. 21 defense allows you to be a bruiser that can withstand most heavy hitter. While 9 gives you movement speed you need to be really mobile to snipe their ad carry.
For attack speed, I think all you really need is a wit's end. My irelia build atm is usually boots/3pots into wards+phage+merc into FM into atmas into wit's end or FON. If they have a heavy magic team like top rumble/singed. I usually delay my phage and get SV into phage into wit's end.
I feel like 9 utility is better for Irelia than 9 offense but that's just how I FEEL. ms quints would be a better source of ms than the points in utility unless you're already running those
On December 05 2011 10:11 Brees wrote: he can barely do damage to you once you get wriggle's/tabi and if he tries to play aggressive spin is always going to leave you with less hp then him so you can just immediately stun and then go to town on him with true damage and burst him down everytime.
And Tryndamere won't get a Wriggle's himself?
armor doesn't affect true damage or irelia's stun which are the 2 skills you max vs him.
My most played is tryn in solo q 1800-ish and ive yet to beat an irelia, its a stomp everytime. I can beat pretty much any other character.
If you max stun before Q, Then your mobility in a teamfight takes a huge hit which imo is kinda shit, you might win lane a bit but you are a lot less useful in teamfights.
Irelia does not hardcounter tryn. You really can't trade with tryndmere. YOu can farm as well as him though if you are good at positioning and use your Q only to "hit" slightly dangerous creeps. I don't think I ever pushed tryndmere out of a lane without a jungler. His max fury hits hard+mocking cry just takes out too much damage to trade.
Irelia is my favorite top lane however she just doesn't stack up well versus heroes like uydr and gp.
On December 05 2011 12:23 xbankx wrote: I go 21/9 with specs in MS. IMO 0/21/9 is the safest on irelia atm at top because it aloows you to assume any role you see fit. 21 defense allows you to be a bruiser that can withstand most heavy hitter. While 9 gives you movement speed you need to be really mobile to snipe their ad carry.
For attack speed, I think all you really need is a wit's end. My irelia build atm is usually boots/3pots into wards+phage+merc into FM into atmas into wit's end or FON. If they have a heavy magic team like top rumble/singed. I usually delay my phage and get SV into phage into wit's end.
Don't mean to put you on the spot, but perhaps your squishy opening build gives you a hard time against bruisers?
Sometimes Irelia has to open cloth or Doran's Shield and not rush her Triforce items.
Irelia does not hardcounter tryn. You really can't trade with tryndmere. YOu can farm as well as him though if you are good at positioning and use your Q only to "hit" slightly dangerous creeps. I don't think I ever pushed tryndmere out of a lane without a jungler. His max fury hits hard+mocking cry just takes out too much damage to trade.
Irelia is my favorite top lane however she just doesn't stack up well versus heroes like uydr and gp.
On December 05 2011 12:23 xbankx wrote: I go 21/9 with specs in MS. IMO 0/21/9 is the safest on irelia atm at top because it aloows you to assume any role you see fit. 21 defense allows you to be a bruiser that can withstand most heavy hitter. While 9 gives you movement speed you need to be really mobile to snipe their ad carry.
For attack speed, I think all you really need is a wit's end. My irelia build atm is usually boots/3pots into wards+phage+merc into FM into atmas into wit's end or FON. If they have a heavy magic team like top rumble/singed. I usually delay my phage and get SV into phage into wit's end.
Don't mean to put you on the spot, but perhaps your squishy opening build gives you a hard time against bruisers?
Sometimes Irelia has to open cloth or Doran's Shield and not rush her Triforce items.
Do you guys run armor quints? I go 21/9/0 and open cloth armor and I still think he just straight up wins trades at level 2.
I have trouble against Akali, and Riven. I run armour pen reds, armour yellows, mr / level blues, and ms quints with 21 defemse and the extra movement speed in utility. Should I make a rune page specific to laning vs these champs? I can't win trades at level 4, and end up falling very behind because I can't even farm with out losing a third of my bar.
I'd run armor or hp regen quints vs. any of those terror toplane champs. Besides, farm at tower till around level 7-9 when you can trade with them. You're weak early on. I've beaten most of the different difficult lanes, olaf, trynd, riven with hpregen quints, cloth+5 into boots+chain vest and then continuing the build. It sure is a big farmfest, but you shouldn't be losing any trades with 120+ armor before level 9.
You don't get the movement in utility and movement quints and then expect to win early laning phase, are you serious? Get armour quints and get at least 9 in offense if not 21. Also rush ninja tabi into vamp sceptre/cloth armour into wriggles, ninja tabi stupidly efficient against a pure autoattacker.
If you're losing trades at level 2; no shit, irelia loses to everyone at level 2. Why are you trading at level 2? If he hits you just stun him and run off, he'll draw creep aggro and push lane towards you. You only start doing shit when you get level 5+ and your true damage becomes significant and you have like over 100 armour. Irelia has so much armour, 5 pots, the easiest creep clearing at tower in the game and a free stun when you're lower hp not to mention free lifesteal how the hell can you have trouble sitting back building armour then zoning him from lane?
Like, look at the damn numbers. He gains 25 AD, up to 50 if he's REALLY low. You gain 75 TRUE AD. He gets some more crit he's going to be using his Q to heal most likely and once he does that you can just zone him because without fury he doesn't do shit to you. If he maxes mocking shout he doesn't have more than 1 point in heal and your true damage doesn't care that much against his W compared to other champs. Even still, you can still stun him with E run away and then your E cd is up 6 seconds before his W and you just WQE him and you easily win that trade.
The thing about trynd is, once you can stop him free hitting on creeps all the time he won't have fury to make him hit harder and that snowballs into him getting zoned even harder. He also tends to push lane to stack up fury which means once you're strong you get to hold the lane pushing and force him to go gank or something when he just wants to farm.
Akali and riven are the same as most other lanes, you play passive as shit until you get your wriggles and at least level 7 (obviously don't want ninja tabi against them, so just farm 1300 gold and go get wriggles) and then you're suddenly healing for 45+ a hit, attacking pretty fast if you have attack speed reds and the offensive attack speed shit and have so much armour they hit you less than you heal for, pretty absurd.
I feel movement speed quints and the 5% movement speed from initiator + utility masteries is too good once dragon fights, start to happen, but I would be willing to change things to lane against Akali specifically, being able to chase down the carries is what Irelia is all about and movement speed combined with 65% cc reduction just helps this.
Still if you're unable to even get out to the creeps in the middle of the lane, when the lane is reset vs. Akali, what do you do? If you just try to walk up to the creeps she's going to drop her slow and try to land a few procs on you resulting in you losing like a 4th or a 3rd of your health each. Do you let her harass so she draws aggro then pull the lane into the tower so you can farm it? I don't see how a wriggles lantern is going to help, because she's going to be out farming me and will be able to buy her hextech revolver when I get wriggles, so she gets tons of sustain and the armour isn't going to give me anything beneficial. I have tried waiting until level 7 and getting wriggles, but she still beats me and then a tanky jungler like Udyr will just dive me / attack my tower / stun me under the tower and tank it for the akali to just burst me down depending upon how much health I'm at.
I don't see how Ninja tabi are going to help. With the removal of nimbleness, the life saving dodge percs just don't happen anymore, and Akali is mostly magic damage so the cloth armour isn't going to be very effective. What should I do when fighting Akali? I lose trades pre-six, I lose trades post six. Is starks an option I haven't looked at because the Wriggles hasn't worked. Witt's end hasn't been effective because I haven't been able to get it stacked before the damage is done. I'm absolutely clueless in this match up.
Irelia does not hardcounter tryn. You really can't trade with tryndmere. YOu can farm as well as him though if you are good at positioning and use your Q only to "hit" slightly dangerous creeps. I don't think I ever pushed tryndmere out of a lane without a jungler. His max fury hits hard+mocking cry just takes out too much damage to trade.
Irelia is my favorite top lane however she just doesn't stack up well versus heroes like uydr and gp.
On December 05 2011 12:23 xbankx wrote: I go 21/9 with specs in MS. IMO 0/21/9 is the safest on irelia atm at top because it aloows you to assume any role you see fit. 21 defense allows you to be a bruiser that can withstand most heavy hitter. While 9 gives you movement speed you need to be really mobile to snipe their ad carry.
For attack speed, I think all you really need is a wit's end. My irelia build atm is usually boots/3pots into wards+phage+merc into FM into atmas into wit's end or FON. If they have a heavy magic team like top rumble/singed. I usually delay my phage and get SV into phage into wit's end.
Don't mean to put you on the spot, but perhaps your squishy opening build gives you a hard time against bruisers?
Sometimes Irelia has to open cloth or Doran's Shield and not rush her Triforce items.
Personally Im a huge fan of wickd so I learn irelia builds from him. And what he said one time on his stream that you never want to start anything but boots+pots. His reasoning is that boots+pots lets you be aggressive in lane when you have the chance, but if you start cloth+5 pots, you no longer have that option. Personally the only time I start with non-boots is vs GP which without the 5 pots you really can't stay in lane.
On December 06 2011 01:20 Sabin010 wrote: I feel movement speed quints and the 5% movement speed from initiator + utility masteries is too good once dragon fights, start to happen, but I would be willing to change things to lane against Akali specifically, being able to chase down the carries is what Irelia is all about and movement speed combined with 65% cc reduction just helps this.
Still if you're unable to even get out to the creeps in the middle of the lane, when the lane is reset vs. Akali, what do you do? If you just try to walk up to the creeps she's going to drop her slow and try to land a few procs on you resulting in you losing like a 4th or a 3rd of your health each. Do you let her harass so she draws aggro then pull the lane into the tower so you can farm it? I don't see how a wriggles lantern is going to help, because she's going to be out farming me and will be able to buy her hextech revolver when I get wriggles, so she gets tons of sustain and the armour isn't going to give me anything beneficial. I have tried waiting until level 7 and getting wriggles, but she still beats me and then a tanky jungler like Udyr will just dive me / attack my tower / stun me under the tower and tank it for the akali to just burst me down depending upon how much health I'm at.
I don't see how Ninja tabi are going to help. With the removal of nimbleness, the life saving dodge percs just don't happen anymore, and Akali is mostly magic damage so the cloth armour isn't going to be very effective. What should I do when fighting Akali? I lose trades pre-six, I lose trades post six. Is starks an option I haven't looked at because the Wriggles hasn't worked. Witt's end hasn't been effective because I haven't been able to get it stacked before the damage is done. I'm absolutely clueless in this match up.
To fight akali, you have to play extremely smart and careful. Akali snowballs easily. Imo, to fight akali, you have to bait the cloud. You bait it by pretending to be aggressive when the creep wave is low, mehish akali will usually attempt cloud to hide from your aggressive and do her Q into attack harass. All you need to do is back off. Then once the cloud goes on cooldown. you can go back in, active your true damage E when you have lower hp. Then when she starts to run Q into her. Timing of this type of harassment is also very important. You want to strike when she doesn't have a lot of creeps on her side.
Riven is mehish. I perfersonally attack the same way I attack akali, Fight when her skills are on cooldown.
On December 06 2011 01:20 Sabin010 wrote: I feel movement speed quints and the 5% movement speed from initiator + utility masteries is too good once dragon fights, start to happen, but I would be willing to change things to lane against Akali specifically, being able to chase down the carries is what Irelia is all about and movement speed combined with 65% cc reduction just helps this.
you fundamentally misunderstand the game. Irelia is about chasing down carries, sure, but that's all secondary to not getting shit on in lane. Your runes and masteries are there to make sure you don't get shit on in lane, because no one gives a fuck if your movespeed is 12 higher than it would be without those quints if you have 30 CS out of laning because you got zoned. Besides, you really think you're going to be above 70% HP diving through a team? please, initiator is a shitty mastery. and you really overestimate juggernaut by putting it in terms of having 65% cc reduction. I mean, la-di-fucking-da, if I just have mercs + my passive, I have 61% CC reuction. Is it really worth taking a bunch of mediocre masteries to get another 0.08 seconds shaved off of a 2 second stun? The answer, of course, is no. Simply put, the math doesn't lie, defensive tree is really mediocre past veteran's scars and it's foolish to go that far down it when you can put the offensive tree to use.
so basically you lose lanes because you're speccing like an idiot because you think you need things that you don't. Armor or MRes quints go a long ass way to not losing all these matchups with irelia, as would speccing a bare minimum of 9 in offensive to at least get attack speed and 10% arpen, if not taking a full 21 to get crit, lifesteal, arpen and executioner. believe it or not, you can still stick to carries with just a triforce. a slow + speed buff is all you need to stick to them, you don't need balls out movespeed by any stretch of the imagination.
On December 06 2011 01:20 Sabin010 wrote: I feel movement speed quints and the 5% movement speed from initiator + utility masteries is too good once dragon fights, start to happen, but I would be willing to change things to lane against Akali specifically, being able to chase down the carries is what Irelia is all about and movement speed combined with 65% cc reduction just helps this.
you fundamentally misunderstand the game. Irelia is about chasing down carries, sure, but that's all secondary to not getting shit on in lane. Your runes and masteries are there to make sure you don't get shit on in lane, because no one gives a fuck if your movespeed is 12 higher than it would be without those quints if you have 30 CS out of laning because you got zoned. Besides, you really think you're going to be above 70% HP diving through a team? please, initiator is a shitty mastery. and you really overestimate juggernaut by putting it in terms of having 65% cc reduction. I mean, la-di-fucking-da, if I just have mercs + my passive, I have 61% CC reuction. Is it really worth taking a bunch of mediocre masteries to get another 0.08 seconds shaved off of a 2 second stun? The answer, of course, is no. Simply put, the math doesn't lie, defensive tree is really mediocre past veteran's scars and it's foolish to go that far down it when you can put the offensive tree to use.
so basically you lose lanes because you're speccing like an idiot because you think you need things that you don't. Armor or MRes quints go a long ass way to not losing all these matchups with irelia, as would speccing a bare minimum of 9 in offensive to at least get attack speed and 10% arpen, if not taking a full 21 to get crit, lifesteal, arpen and executioner. believe it or not, you can still stick to carries with just a triforce. a slow + speed buff is all you need to stick to them, you don't need balls out movespeed by any stretch of the imagination.
6% attackspeed is pretty pathetic, especially on a champ with a move built in to apply an extra hit. 10% armour penetration is not going to really do anything when facing a champion who's coming to lane with less than 30 armour. Honor guard is a direct counter to havoc. Juggernaut is going to be worth about 100 health in the endgame, and early game (pre-mercs) its 10% cc reduction is going to give you more reduction when against 1 or 2 champs in lane than the end game bonus of 4%. The 6% bonus damage to champs less than 40% is better for one of your team mates because Irelia can put the stun and get the guy to 40% so some one else can finish them, and if they're only at 10% you should be able to kill them with a w auto attack q anyway. I'll try some flat MR runes. when against Akali, but don't tell me im speccing like an idiot, and fundamentally don't understand the game, when you posted this less than a month ago.
On November 01 2011 03:18 Makavw wrote: Irelia used to be my favourite char but now i just dont see a reason to play her anymore .
She cannot force anyone out of the lane, she is not the best afk farmer , she doesnt counter anyone but she can be countered :/. The only reason why irelia is still good for me is beeing the most mobile "tank" in game. Other then that if i want to farm i pick Nasus or Gp, if i want to be aggresive i pick Garen/Renekton.
Also i have yet to lose a lane versus irelia as garen. He seems like super hard counter to her unless he gets ganked early .
Irelia is flexible enough to spec vs. anyone. She doesn't win many lanes, but she doesn't lose the way Nasus or Singed can, and she has comparable power when farmed. Lol @ farming with GP, on equal farm, Irelia takes a massive massive dump on GP.
Irelia is my go-to safe pick in lane. She can just spec balls out defensive and arrive on lane with like 70 Armor vs. Garen/Pantheon/Talon with 5 hp pots and just outsustain them until wriggle's and then she just fucks them in the face. You can literally just outspec whoever you're laning against and get your farm vs. ANYONE, which transistions into her retarded mid-late game.
She's a really stupid character, but I love Irelia and I can't believe people bitch about her power (it's STILL fucking absurd).
=/
i hear such passionate praise about irelia but i've never seen her perform that well. when laning against her i found it to be such an easy win even back when she was considered 'broken'. now that i'm playing as her i just can't seem find her place. she doesn't have the ridiculous early game of garen, the broken midgame of nidalee, the unstoppable lategame of jax. at the same time her mediocrity at all stages of the game don't add up to her being 'versatile'. i was talking to spud about this earlier and he also doesn't find her to be too strong either.
maybe i'm just that bad at the game.
also, how do you beat AP with stuns as irelia (sion, ryze, even kennen).
AP with stuns? Flat MRes Glyphs, Flat MRes Quints, 0/21/9, open regrowth, rush philo -> Merc's + Wit's End.
Garen early game is Garen early game. Irelia can very easily spec and build to never lose a lane to Garen and by the time she gets wriggle's, he can't do fucking anything. Irelia 1v1 murders Nidalee midgame AND is stronger in teamfights (by a mile too, it's not even close). Nidalee gives more mobility but, w/e, it's fucking Nidalee. Jax's "unstoppable" late game is something I've still yet to fucking see. Most overrated phase on any character ever. Irelia does more in your standard teamfight than Jax will and doesn't require you to build an entire fucking team around all-inning on Jax's lategame.
I dunno man, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say. When I play Irelia, I feel like I cannot lose a lane hard enough to hurt my team because I can build whatever I need to stop the opposing damage and just get my farm and then in teamfights I can alternately peel and kill tanks or dive and kill carries regardless of my build at that point in time due to her crazy ass kit.
I take it the best would be to play flat mr glyphs and mr quints, keeping the same masteries, and opening regen pendent would be the best way to stay in the lane long enough to farm up some nice items.
On December 06 2011 01:20 Sabin010 wrote: I feel movement speed quints and the 5% movement speed from initiator + utility masteries is too good once dragon fights, start to happen, but I would be willing to change things to lane against Akali specifically, being able to chase down the carries is what Irelia is all about and movement speed combined with 65% cc reduction just helps this.
Still if you're unable to even get out to the creeps in the middle of the lane, when the lane is reset vs. Akali, what do you do? If you just try to walk up to the creeps she's going to drop her slow and try to land a few procs on you resulting in you losing like a 4th or a 3rd of your health each. Do you let her harass so she draws aggro then pull the lane into the tower so you can farm it? I don't see how a wriggles lantern is going to help, because she's going to be out farming me and will be able to buy her hextech revolver when I get wriggles, so she gets tons of sustain and the armour isn't going to give me anything beneficial. I have tried waiting until level 7 and getting wriggles, but she still beats me and then a tanky jungler like Udyr will just dive me / attack my tower / stun me under the tower and tank it for the akali to just burst me down depending upon how much health I'm at.
I don't see how Ninja tabi are going to help. With the removal of nimbleness, the life saving dodge percs just don't happen anymore, and Akali is mostly magic damage so the cloth armour isn't going to be very effective. What should I do when fighting Akali? I lose trades pre-six, I lose trades post six. Is starks an option I haven't looked at because the Wriggles hasn't worked. Witt's end hasn't been effective because I haven't been able to get it stacked before the damage is done. I'm absolutely clueless in this match up.
To fight akali, you have to play extremely smart and careful. Akali snowballs easily. Imo, to fight akali, you have to bait the cloud. You bait it by pretending to be aggressive when the creep wave is low, mehish akali will usually attempt cloud to hide from your aggressive and do her Q into attack harass. All you need to do is back off. Then once the cloud goes on cooldown. you can go back in, active your true damage E when you have lower hp. Then when she starts to run Q into her. Timing of this type of harassment is also very important. You want to strike when she doesn't have a lot of creeps on her side.
Riven is mehish. I perfersonally attack the same way I attack akali, Fight when her skills are on cooldown.
What about the Akali's that use the pool to zone you off the creeps, and isn't afraid to trade outside the pool? Should I be trying to get in the bush just so I don't lose xp? I mean I just want to farm up and make it to the mid game where I can actually trade with her, but I feel if she forces me back and gets a revolver before I can get a phage and philosopher's stone, im going to have a hard time staying in lane.
Here is something interesting pointed out on GD regarding the true damage of Irelia's W and the 6% bonus damage final red mastery.
On December 06 2011 02:40 Takkara wrote: So I'm unsure if people have already done this analysis, so I apologize if it's old hat, but I wanted to investigate the effect of Executioner, the 21 point talent in Offense.
Text reads: "Increases damage dealt by 6% to targets below 40% health."
My questions basically were this:
Does it apply to on-hit items?
Does it affect smite?
Will it only proc when the target is below 40% health or do you get the 6% on whatever portion of damage that occurred below 40%? In other words, if someone has 41% health and you hit them for 1000, do they get hit for somewhere near 1060 or do they get hit for near 1000?
Does it affect Red buff?
So, here are my findings. They're trivial to reproduce. I have some video and pictures, but it's so meaningless to post them because there's nothing hard to the recreation. I just used Udyr in a custom game and tanked big buffs in Turtle to avoid extraneous damage.
Does it apply to on-hit effects? Turns out the answer to this is: yes. Wit's End and Malady both gain 6% damage when the target is below 40% health.
Does it apply to smite? No. Smite is unaffected by this talent.
Does it only work if the target is below 40% or does any damage that falls below 40% cause it to proc? I've never seen an intermediate value. I've only ever seen my hits do the normal hit or the 6% more hit. I've never seen an intermediate value. This seems unlikely that I always EXACTLY hit 40% health on all the mobs, so I think this is conclusively proven.
Does it apply to red buff? No it does not. This lead me to my biggest discovery through all of this: Executioner does not apply to true damage. Thinking this was the reason I saw no increase in the red buff or smite damage, I loaded up a game with Irelia and tried it out on the jungle mobs. Her W bonus does not scale when the target is below 40%. Additionally, the 6 damage returned to mobs from Bladed Armor does not appear to scale but it is too insignificant to really notice even if it did.
Anywho, hope this helps someone. If this was already discussed before, sorry! But I was just curious if classic Saint strategy of "fast-smiting" big buffs was the new optimal strategy if you go 21 in Offense. Turns out it is as long as you're not afraid of it being stolen from you. However, the true damage not scaling issue is particularly interesting, and I'm not sure if it's not a bug.
Edit:After doing some reading it's intended behavior because that's what "true" damage means, I suppose. Oh well, good to have it confirmed I suppose.
On December 06 2011 01:20 Sabin010 wrote: I feel movement speed quints and the 5% movement speed from initiator + utility masteries is too good once dragon fights, start to happen, but I would be willing to change things to lane against Akali specifically, being able to chase down the carries is what Irelia is all about and movement speed combined with 65% cc reduction just helps this.
you fundamentally misunderstand the game. Irelia is about chasing down carries, sure, but that's all secondary to not getting shit on in lane. Your runes and masteries are there to make sure you don't get shit on in lane, because no one gives a fuck if your movespeed is 12 higher than it would be without those quints if you have 30 CS out of laning because you got zoned. Besides, you really think you're going to be above 70% HP diving through a team? please, initiator is a shitty mastery. and you really overestimate juggernaut by putting it in terms of having 65% cc reduction. I mean, la-di-fucking-da, if I just have mercs + my passive, I have 61% CC reuction. Is it really worth taking a bunch of mediocre masteries to get another 0.08 seconds shaved off of a 2 second stun? The answer, of course, is no. Simply put, the math doesn't lie, defensive tree is really mediocre past veteran's scars and it's foolish to go that far down it when you can put the offensive tree to use.
so basically you lose lanes because you're speccing like an idiot because you think you need things that you don't. Armor or MRes quints go a long ass way to not losing all these matchups with irelia, as would speccing a bare minimum of 9 in offensive to at least get attack speed and 10% arpen, if not taking a full 21 to get crit, lifesteal, arpen and executioner. believe it or not, you can still stick to carries with just a triforce. a slow + speed buff is all you need to stick to them, you don't need balls out movespeed by any stretch of the imagination.
6% attackspeed is pretty pathetic, especially on a champ with a move built in to apply an extra hit. 10% armour penetration is not going to really do anything when facing a champion who's coming to lane with less than 30 armour. Honor guard is a direct counter to havoc. Juggernaut is going to be worth about 100 health in the endgame, and early game (pre-mercs) its 10% cc reduction is going to give you more reduction when against 1 or 2 champs in lane than the end game bonus of 4%. The 6% bonus damage to champs less than 40% is better for one of your team mates because Irelia can put the stun and get the guy to 40% so some one else can finish them, and if they're only at 10% you should be able to kill them with a w auto attack q anyway. I'll try some flat MR runes. when against Akali, but don't tell me im speccing like an idiot, and fundamentally don't understand the game, when you posted this less than a month ago.
On November 01 2011 03:18 Makavw wrote: Irelia used to be my favourite char but now i just dont see a reason to play her anymore .
She cannot force anyone out of the lane, she is not the best afk farmer , she doesnt counter anyone but she can be countered :/. The only reason why irelia is still good for me is beeing the most mobile "tank" in game. Other then that if i want to farm i pick Nasus or Gp, if i want to be aggresive i pick Garen/Renekton.
Also i have yet to lose a lane versus irelia as garen. He seems like super hard counter to her unless he gets ganked early .
Irelia is flexible enough to spec vs. anyone. She doesn't win many lanes, but she doesn't lose the way Nasus or Singed can, and she has comparable power when farmed. Lol @ farming with GP, on equal farm, Irelia takes a massive massive dump on GP.
Irelia is my go-to safe pick in lane. She can just spec balls out defensive and arrive on lane with like 70 Armor vs. Garen/Pantheon/Talon with 5 hp pots and just outsustain them until wriggle's and then she just fucks them in the face. You can literally just outspec whoever you're laning against and get your farm vs. ANYONE, which transistions into her retarded mid-late game.
She's a really stupid character, but I love Irelia and I can't believe people bitch about her power (it's STILL fucking absurd).
=/
i hear such passionate praise about irelia but i've never seen her perform that well. when laning against her i found it to be such an easy win even back when she was considered 'broken'. now that i'm playing as her i just can't seem find her place. she doesn't have the ridiculous early game of garen, the broken midgame of nidalee, the unstoppable lategame of jax. at the same time her mediocrity at all stages of the game don't add up to her being 'versatile'. i was talking to spud about this earlier and he also doesn't find her to be too strong either.
maybe i'm just that bad at the game.
also, how do you beat AP with stuns as irelia (sion, ryze, even kennen).
AP with stuns? Flat MRes Glyphs, Flat MRes Quints, 0/21/9, open regrowth, rush philo -> Merc's + Wit's End.
Garen early game is Garen early game. Irelia can very easily spec and build to never lose a lane to Garen and by the time she gets wriggle's, he can't do fucking anything. Irelia 1v1 murders Nidalee midgame AND is stronger in teamfights (by a mile too, it's not even close). Nidalee gives more mobility but, w/e, it's fucking Nidalee. Jax's "unstoppable" late game is something I've still yet to fucking see. Most overrated phase on any character ever. Irelia does more in your standard teamfight than Jax will and doesn't require you to build an entire fucking team around all-inning on Jax's lategame.
I dunno man, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say. When I play Irelia, I feel like I cannot lose a lane hard enough to hurt my team because I can build whatever I need to stop the opposing damage and just get my farm and then in teamfights I can alternately peel and kill tanks or dive and kill carries regardless of my build at that point in time due to her crazy ass kit.
I take it the best would be to play flat mr glyphs and mr quints, keeping the same masteries, and opening regen pendent would be the best way to stay in the lane long enough to farm up some nice items.
On December 06 2011 01:20 Sabin010 wrote: I feel movement speed quints and the 5% movement speed from initiator + utility masteries is too good once dragon fights, start to happen, but I would be willing to change things to lane against Akali specifically, being able to chase down the carries is what Irelia is all about and movement speed combined with 65% cc reduction just helps this.
Still if you're unable to even get out to the creeps in the middle of the lane, when the lane is reset vs. Akali, what do you do? If you just try to walk up to the creeps she's going to drop her slow and try to land a few procs on you resulting in you losing like a 4th or a 3rd of your health each. Do you let her harass so she draws aggro then pull the lane into the tower so you can farm it? I don't see how a wriggles lantern is going to help, because she's going to be out farming me and will be able to buy her hextech revolver when I get wriggles, so she gets tons of sustain and the armour isn't going to give me anything beneficial. I have tried waiting until level 7 and getting wriggles, but she still beats me and then a tanky jungler like Udyr will just dive me / attack my tower / stun me under the tower and tank it for the akali to just burst me down depending upon how much health I'm at.
I don't see how Ninja tabi are going to help. With the removal of nimbleness, the life saving dodge percs just don't happen anymore, and Akali is mostly magic damage so the cloth armour isn't going to be very effective. What should I do when fighting Akali? I lose trades pre-six, I lose trades post six. Is starks an option I haven't looked at because the Wriggles hasn't worked. Witt's end hasn't been effective because I haven't been able to get it stacked before the damage is done. I'm absolutely clueless in this match up.
To fight akali, you have to play extremely smart and careful. Akali snowballs easily. Imo, to fight akali, you have to bait the cloud. You bait it by pretending to be aggressive when the creep wave is low, mehish akali will usually attempt cloud to hide from your aggressive and do her Q into attack harass. All you need to do is back off. Then once the cloud goes on cooldown. you can go back in, active your true damage E when you have lower hp. Then when she starts to run Q into her. Timing of this type of harassment is also very important. You want to strike when she doesn't have a lot of creeps on her side.
Riven is mehish. I perfersonally attack the same way I attack akali, Fight when her skills are on cooldown.
What about the Akali's that use the pool to zone you off the creeps, and isn't afraid to trade outside the pool? Should I be trying to get in the bush just so I don't lose xp? I mean I just want to farm up and make it to the mid game where I can actually trade with her, but I feel if she forces me back and gets a revolver before I can get a phage and philosopher's stone, im going to have a hard time staying in lane.
Not to burst your bubble or anything, but you do recognise that 0/21/9 was with the old masteries, right?
Furthermore, he never said to get Havoc.. unless I'm reading it wrong? Honour Guard is pretty terrible anyway. Reducing 1.5 damage very 100 damage is almost nothing. I'm also not sure why you think Irelia can't be cleaning up people once they're below 40% hp since she also excels as an assassin. In fact, her ability to be a tanky assassin as well as still be good at sustained damage is precisely why she's incredibly powerful. Continuing on, 10% APen scales really well, and I don't see anything else in the Def Tree that scales as hard. And if any top laner comes to top with less than 30 armour they're asking to have their face hurt really badly anyway.
Also, Mogwai is one of TL's best top laners and has shown himself capable of holding his own against other great top laners such as Voyboy. (I remember him beating Voyboy Akali top lane in the NA Premier Qualifiers too, and this was pre-nerf Akali). So it's not like he doesn't understand this game.
Sorry, I didn't realize it wasn't that long ago we got the new masteries. I just said Honour Gaurd is a direct counter to havoc. Don't get me wrong 10% armour pen is nice, but investing 9 points into offense just to get it, when I could get a sword of the divine and have 30 flat armour pen which is better than 10% vs anybody with less than 300 armour + 60% attackspeed. Irelia gets flat true damage, why do you even need armour penetration?
Would health regen yellows be better than armour vs Akali?
I would be very cautious before diving into an argument against Smash regarding top lanes...
You literally ignored all the masteries that make Irelia good in lane, then are asking why you can't win trades in lane.
-6% AS is great for a champion that scales off AS. If you say it's "pathetic", then I gotta say removing less than 5% of a cc is "pathetic". -10% armor pen is pretty important when 1) you run AS reds and have no flat armor pen, and 2) no freaking top lane in the game comes to lane with less than 30 armor. Who the hell are you laning against? Base armor + armor yellows alone is 30 armor, and that's not including the 6 armor in defense (that everyone gets against Irelia) and the fact that so many top lanes like to get Wriggles. For 5 points you get the offensive stats you scale with best, which should be a no-brainer. -Saying Honor Guard counters Havoc is like saying you don't buy damage because it's countered by armor/MR. -Executioner is great in lane since you start most trades with W in melee range (and saving Q and R for burst a little later), and is great later on to get the last bit of damage with Q and R. 6% is a lot of damage...didn't you say yourself you're supposed to kill squishies?
I don't understand how you can say all these are meaningless and less useful than some movespeed when Irelia isn't even MS reliant. You're almost never above 70% in teamfights, and even then you shouldn't ever have trouble sticking on a target (especially if you have triforce). And damage > movespeed for killing squishies, since no one except possibly Ezreal can kite you anyway. Run MS quints if you really want the movespeed.
You win against Akali like every other non-sustain lane - survive the first few levels with pots (either boots or MR mantle are fine) and then completely shit on her in lane starting at 5. Trade hits, then heal up while she can't do anything. If you have Wit's End she can't ever touch you. Try the right runes/masteries and you'll be pleasantly surprised.
EDIT: Did you really just mention Sword of the Divine? That item is pretty awful. Get Wit's End / Triforce.
Against Akali, AS reds (or armor pen if you're used to that), armor yellow, MR blue, MR or hp5 quints.
EDIT 2: Sorry for the rather harsh tone here - but it's frustrating to see people ask for advice, have multiple people respond (including some of our best posters/players), and see their advice and time spent get waved off.
On December 06 2011 03:25 Sabin010 wrote: Sorry, I didn't realize it wasn't that long ago we got the new masteries. I just said Honour Gaurd is a direct counter to havoc. Don't get me wrong 10% armour pen is nice, but investing 9 points into offense just to get it, when I could get a sword of the divine and have 30 flat armour pen which is better than 10% vs anybody with less than 300 armour + 60% attackspeed. Irelia gets flat true damage, why do you even need armour penetration?
Yea I said that back with offensive and defensive trees were close to the same power level. they're not even close to each other anymore.
Q does physical damage, R does physical damage, the majority of your auto attack damage is still physical damage. ArPen is good on Irelia. and why exactly are you comparing a tier 3 mastery with a 1970 gold item (especially one that's not even close to core on Irelia)? completely different ballparks.
You guys and your hand waving arguments. Everyone just picks their favourite tree and goes "you get THIS from this tree but you ONLY get this from this shitty tree" Mogwai already did all the math and offensive outperforms the other trees. 6% attack speed scales ridiculously well with W but you only look at the Q which has a substantially smaller effect on your damage not to mention scaling well with the 10% armor pen mastery with your ultimate as well. Who comes to lane with 30 armour? And why are you looking at %armour pen for early game? When even squishies have like 100 armour 10% is a big fucking deal when you ultimate through their whole team 4 times. You're looking at the lategame utility masteries and comparing them at early game and then say juggarnaught is 100 hp late game, just ridiculous bias there. You can still get lots of movement speed from fon or trinity anyways, as smash said, laning is the most important thing for your runes and masteries because your runes stats snowball advantages into much bigger things if you win lane because of them.
I'm asking for match up specific advice vs. Akali. I've never seen one get a wriggle's, and I haven't had a problem against any top laner that rushes wriggle's aside from Udyr and Riven. 90% of the games I play I get triforce so you can get like 10 sheen procs from blowing all the cooldowns and sticking on some one. I would need to find out the exact amout of attackspeed I would need to get 3 attacks instead of 2.
Akali's typically show up to lane with boots and 3 potions, and i've never seen one come to lane with 30+ armour. Her passives turn it into a sustain lane so I don't see how its a non-sustain lane, and they're typically getting hextech first trip back.
What would you suggest for runes and masteries specifically vs Akali. I already said what I was using and I just get called an idiot, and given vague advice. What should my first item be and what should my goals be for the 12 minute mark.
The argument that honor guard counters havoc seems like an extremely silly argument when both masteries are just really, really bad, and you should avoid taking both of then all the time. Havoc is so bad that even if I'm going 21/0/9 as an ap carry, I'd rather take summoner's wrath, max out the crappy metal force, and max out butcher because the +4dmg against minions for early game laning seems to be worth more than havoc.
On December 06 2011 04:07 Sabin010 wrote: I'm asking for match up specific advice vs. Akali. I've never seen one get a wriggle's, and I haven't had a problem against any top laner that rushes wriggle's aside from Udyr and Riven. 90% of the games I play I get triforce so you can get like 10 sheen procs from blowing all the cooldowns and sticking on some one. I would need to find out the exact amout of attackspeed I would need to get 3 attacks instead of 2.
Akali's typically show up to lane with boots and 3 potions, and i've never seen one come to lane with 30+ armour. Her passives turn it into a sustain lane so I don't see how its a non-sustain lane, and they're typically getting hextech first trip back.
What would you suggest for runes and masteries specifically vs Akali. I already said what I was using and I just get called an idiot, and given vague advice. What should my first item be and what should my goals be for the 12 minute mark.
Open cloth + 5, wriggle's -> wit's end or wriggle's -> philo + hog, then standard Tanking items and Triforce as needed.
On December 06 2011 04:11 koreasilver wrote: The argument that honor guard counters havoc seems like an extremely silly argument when both masteries are just really, really bad, and you should avoid taking both of then all the time. Havoc is so bad that even if I'm going 21/0/9 as an ap carry, I'd rather take summoner's wrath, max out the crappy metal force, and max out butcher because the +4dmg against minions for early game laning seems to be worth more than havoc.
havoc's actually OK on AP carries IMO. It's serviceable with high base damages on spells.
I dunno. Even if you deal like a 1000 damage with a spell you'll only get 15 more damage, which doesn't really end up being much at all because damage like that comes from burst, not sustained damage. I feel like on mages that have trouble last hitting under a tower early on like Swain would benefit more using the points elsewhere.
On December 06 2011 05:07 koreasilver wrote: I dunno. Even if you deal like a 1000 damage with a spell you'll only get 15 more damage, which doesn't really end up being much at all because damage like that comes from burst, not sustained damage. I feel like on mages that have trouble last hitting under a tower early on like Swain would benefit more using the points elsewhere.
I find the more interesting way to look at it as like, say your ult does 200 damage at level 1 with 0.8 AP scaling. If you have havoc, it will be better than a point in mental force even at 0 AP and only 1 level of the skill. I guess I'm just saying mental force is bad and havoc is typically worth more than it on spells.
Two rumbles in a row today and I got destroyed, very unnerving considering how comfortable I am with Irelia as a top. I have little experience with rumbles but I guess I learned a lot, in that you can never really wreck him. Post wit's end it's still a close call to make (definitely started to bully him 1v1 once trinity was half built). First time I felt like I actually needed some jungle help, but I guess that's why they are there.
He can literally just walk into the lane and kill you if he has the confidence. Would probably run 9/21/0 if I had another chance at em.
I used to build philo->sheen/bruta->chain vest/negatron and build into triforce, then randuin's/FoN, and complete with shurelya and ghostblade. Very expensive, very tanky, loads of triforce procs and the ability to root most of the enemies in place thanks to randuin's active + phage's slow.
I switched to wriggles->wit's end following the advice of somebody, into frozen mallet->atmas. It's good to, and def more powerful from what I used to do (extremeley good late game but so long to kick in). Sometimes I find my previous build better because I can't get to people as easily (less cdr means no more 5s Qs and 6s Es), but it's better to keep a precise target in place.
Wriggles is simply about winning your lane, you build it if it helps you win lane significantly.
Wit's end I feel is the same, in teamfights irelia is very mobile and anti squishy so you won't stick on targets for that long meaning the sustained damage and mr isn't quite as high value as it is in lane where you can win 1v1's and heal for tons with wriggles+wits end. Also wits end+hiten style is over 100 free AD that completely bypasses their armour which they will probably have runed/masteried for and they probably want wriggles as well.
I see a lot of phage/FM + atmas a lot but I dislike it. Phage+Atmas vs triforce? I'd take triforce like every time. You lose some armour but you get burst and mobility and similar sustained damage. The atmas and phage damage scales better with R, and the same thing for brutal, but I don't think it's worth it. I honestly think brutalizer/gb is trash on irelia I never see it used effectively and its just 2600~ spent which would be better spent on a GA by miles.
Like ideal scenario for irelia is like triforce rush, but you just choose to delay it with less effective teamfight items for laning like wriggles, wits end (both also situational counters to heavy magic//physical damage) and then after triforce go full tank. You can go full tank with like wriggles+wit's end as your core if you can't afford triforce and need wriggles+wits for laning but I honestly really like triforce for teamfights unless they are a tanky team.
For tank items I usually like GA>FoN>Randuins/Frozen heart>Atmas but it depends on who on their team is fed and if they rely on skillshots or skills over auto hits on their AD carry etc.
I dislike philo unless you want shurelyas, which isn't a bad item. It feels better to get wriggles for sustain nowadays though.
On December 17 2011 09:02 holdthephone wrote: Two rumbles in a row today and I got destroyed, very unnerving considering how comfortable I am with Irelia as a top. I have little experience with rumbles but I guess I learned a lot, in that you can never really wreck him. Post wit's end it's still a close call to make (definitely started to bully him 1v1 once trinity was half built). First time I felt like I actually needed some jungle help, but I guess that's why they are there.
He can literally just walk into the lane and kill you if he has the confidence. Would probably run 9/21/0 if I had another chance at em.
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Akali just wrecked me too =[
You probably didn't play passive enough at the beginning of the game. Lotta laners really abuse Irelia early so she has to cede some CS and farm under tower until she can get strong enough to trade effectively.
Hi ho guys - finally got myself to level 30 and want to try out some ranked.
Irelia is by far my favourite champion (especially with Aviator skin <3) but my problem is that in my first 4 games, there has been someone as first picked who instalocked another top lane champion (Renekton, Garen, Riven etc) which saddens me greatly.
I can play some mid champions (Ahri, Morg, Lux, Ryze, TF) "decently", jungling (Nocturne, WW, Rammus, GP) and support (Sona, Janna) but they're not even close to as fun as Irelia.
So my question is: is Irelia at all usable as a jungler or mid lane? I did jungling once in the old jungle (was @ level 20 tho) and it seemed fine, but when I tried it in a normal game yesterday everyone would constantly bash at me even though I feel I did a good job (only 2 failed ganks, managed to keep up farm etc), we won pretty decisively and I even managed to steal their buffs a couple of times.
I just want more Irelia in my LoL gaming, please help. :<
Irelia is ok at laning mid but really leaves no place for an AP champion and is not advised. Irelia is a very slow jungler and it should be avoided. I suggest just trying out more champions that are more suited for the role you would prefer to play.
I'm a pretty big irelia fan so I'll list some of my favourite champions in other positions: Jungle: Udyr, Skarner, Lee sin (but im bad at him QQ), Riven (better top but so broken she works in jungle np), Amumu, Xin zhao Mid: Karma, Ryze, Vlad. Support: Sona, Soraka (with tanky builds and runes/masteries. Sona gets really fun when you get the hang of only taking damage your tank items let you outlast with W and run around dealing damage and healing and using passive on people) AD (although I HATE AD, prefer to play bruiser+support bottom): Ashe, Caitlyn. (I just pretend im a sniper all the time it makes it more bearable and stops me going rambo and dying everywhere)
All these champions are pretty tanky (assuming you max shield first or second on lee sin and riven) so they might be similar enough to play.
Generally you should try to get Irelia as much as possible and make her your best champ for ranked but really you should be able to have champions you like in other lanes.
so what do you guys think is the ideal build for irelia? irelia is my favorite champion by far and recently ive been changing up my item build with her, but i havent quite nailed whats the best way to go. what do you guys think? i like going phage/atmas, but with the release of ionic spark, i tried out wits/spark and its pretty good as well. what do you prefer or is old wriggles/wits still king?
A lot of different builds work on Irelia but ideally triforce core still seems best. If you have to blind pick a top in solo queue, Irelia is one of the safest choices.
On January 19 2012 12:14 Owned Noob wrote: so what do you guys think is the ideal build for irelia? irelia is my favorite champion by far and recently ive been changing up my item build with her, but i havent quite nailed whats the best way to go. what do you guys think? i like going phage/atmas, but with the release of ionic spark, i tried out wits/spark and its pretty good as well. what do you prefer or is old wriggles/wits still king?
I usually build wriggles even if I don't have to too. Having some lifesteal is REALLY helpful and looking at the lifesteal items...
EC generally kinda sucks and has no synergy with Irelia BT and Starks are larger investments than Irelia can afford until like 4th item at the earliest Cutlass is a deadend item to Irelia because gunblade isn't worth it and for a dead end item, it's pretty meh compared to wriggle's
leaving Wriggle's as like, the de facto lifesteal item. this applies to basically everyone who wants lifesteal other than riven, pantheon, and ranged carries. Wriggle's is basically really efficient and gives relevant stats, while the rest of the lifesteal items in the game all fell pretty damn niche (except bloodthirster, but you need crazy AD scaling and some range to afford the early 3K).
On January 19 2012 12:40 zulu_nation8 wrote: A lot of different builds work on Irelia but ideally triforce core still seems best. If you have to blind pick a top in solo queue, Irelia is one of the safest choices.
yeah i always get triforce at some point but early on i like to vary my builds.
hmm seems like wriggles is still pretty good. i just feel that with a couple dblades you can get items alot earlier and you get a little bit of life steal. i mean with irelia you already have like 30 natural lifesteal so although the life steal is really good, it just feels unnecessary most of the time. ill have to try it again because its been a while since i really needed one since i really only got it when i needed it
1 dblade isn't enough 2 still ain't cuttin' it 3 wtf happened to my item slots
what do you mean by 30 natural lifesteal? at level 5 her w heals for 26 per hit which isn't bad, but imagine that amount compounded with the lifesteal you get from another source a la wriggles. It makes you deceptively tankier when fighting someone just by continuing to attack them. And sometimes there comes a point where irelia will lifesteal more damage than your opponent can dps and from there on out you can either zone your opponent or force 2 people to handle your lane, relieving pressure on the rest of the map for your team. Buying wriggles or another significant source of lifesteal can allow you to approach this point sooner.
I'm just saying that irelia dominates a lot of matchups without needing wriggles. having a faster triforce, atmas, wits end, ga, etc is better than wriggles if you can own the lane without it. players who use irelia a lot like wickd, hotshot, voyboy, soaz all do not build wriggles on irelia. phage is the item to get asap imo along with defensive boots.
On January 19 2012 16:17 De4ngus wrote: I'm just saying that irelia dominates a lot of matchups without needing wriggles. having a faster triforce, atmas, wits end, ga, etc is better than wriggles if you can own the lane without it. players who use irelia a lot like wickd, hotshot, voyboy, soaz all do not build wriggles on irelia. phage is the item to get asap imo along with defensive boots.
Pretty much this, with phage, your opponent really can't lane against you (one phage proc when he tries to get away could mean certain death). If you don't need wriggles to sustain in the lane, get phage (or wit's end) instead.
On January 03 2012 00:17 Slayer91 wrote: Irelia is ok at laning mid but really leaves no place for an AP champion and is not advised. Irelia is a very slow jungler and it should be avoided. I suggest just trying out more champions that are more suited for the role you would prefer to play.
I'm a pretty big irelia fan so I'll list some of my favourite champions in other positions: Jungle: Udyr, Skarner, Lee sin (but im bad at him QQ), Riven (better top but so broken she works in jungle np), Amumu, Xin zhao Mid: Karma, Ryze, Vlad. Support: Sona, Soraka (with tanky builds and runes/masteries. Sona gets really fun when you get the hang of only taking damage your tank items let you outlast with W and run around dealing damage and healing and using passive on people) AD (although I HATE AD, prefer to play bruiser+support bottom): Ashe, Caitlyn. (I just pretend im a sniper all the time it makes it more bearable and stops me going rambo and dying everywhere)
All these champions are pretty tanky (assuming you max shield first or second on lee sin and riven) so they might be similar enough to play.
Generally you should try to get Irelia as much as possible and make her your best champ for ranked but really you should be able to have champions you like in other lanes.
Forgot to say thanks for the advice! >_< Decided to try out Udyr and he's very exciting to jungle with, and Ahri and Cait are pretty darn fun too (they cost me a boatload though...T_T)
But luckily I'm finally getting to play Irelia @ top a lot more now (everyone seems to want to jungle, or mid ~~) as I get FP often so everything's good. :D
On January 19 2012 16:17 De4ngus wrote: I'm just saying that irelia dominates a lot of matchups without needing wriggles. having a faster triforce, atmas, wits end, ga, etc is better than wriggles if you can own the lane without it. players who use irelia a lot like wickd, hotshot, voyboy, soaz all do not build wriggles on irelia. phage is the item to get asap imo along with defensive boots.
like who? irelia's early levels at top are pretty shakey in most matchups, I'm not sure I understand what matchups you're talking about. the only one I can really think of is Nasus, but I get fast double gold/10 vs. him anyway to give myself a gold lead so that I can keep up with his scaling since Irelia really can't zone him off of cs at any point.
On January 19 2012 16:17 De4ngus wrote: I'm just saying that irelia dominates a lot of matchups without needing wriggles. having a faster triforce, atmas, wits end, ga, etc is better than wriggles if you can own the lane without it. players who use irelia a lot like wickd, hotshot, voyboy, soaz all do not build wriggles on irelia. phage is the item to get asap imo along with defensive boots.
like who? irelia's early levels at top are pretty shakey in most matchups, I'm not sure I understand what matchups you're talking about. the only one I can really think of is Nasus, but I get fast double gold/10 vs. him anyway to give myself a gold lead so that I can keep up with his scaling since Irelia really can't zone him off of cs at any point.
Irelia beats pretty much all the popular NA top laners like GP, udyr, yorick, and tryn. The key to being dominant in lane is attack speed. If you haven't already tried it, see the difference of using a +31% attack speed rune page compared to a 25 armor pen. Starting at level 3 to 9, you will beat nearly every champion in a standoff 1v1 situation due to your W. Assuming you have 9/21/0 masteries and you bought cloth armor to start, the passive heal on hit from W at level 1 is 10/59.6 = 16.8% lifesteal. For comparison, Nasus' passive is 14% lifesteal. It gets even better, assuming you haven't bought an AD item yet at level 9 with a maxed out W, you're healing for the equivalent of 26/86 = 30.2% lifesteal.
Bottom line is if you want more sustain in lane, don't buy a wriggles, buy attack speed. Whether it's zeal or recurve bow depending on if you are going tri force or wit's/phage/atma's, an attack speed item not only increases your sustainability, but it also makes you stronger in a 1v1 compared to someone like GP or udyr with a wriggles. The other reason why wriggles is a bad choice for sustain is because of the proc. That's just more damage done to the minions that you aren't healing off of, very counter productive.
Because of the fact that you're so strong 1v1, I prefer not building gp/5s. You can start denying with just an early ninja tabi. Once you get a phage you're basically a kill threat to the enemy top as soon as he approaches the minions to last hit.
Irelia doesn't get to lvl 3 before someone like GP beats her. And i don't ever think she will beat yorick. No way, simply no way, he has too much sustain and will never get in his face since he can EW her ass 24/7.
If you buy cloth armor/5 hp pots and stay in the bushes until you have to last hit, you'll be fine. If he walks into your minion line to try to harass you in the bush, just stun him in front of your caster minions for extra damage. You beat yorick by controlling your minion wave. You'll get harassed all day if you let him push you to the tower, but if you keep it by the side bushes, yorick's ghouls lose agro on you if you walk into the brush.
Usually when i play yorick i just trololol the minion wave and buy some extra wards for enough vision so i won't get ganked while pushing the shit out of her. If you come out of lane with more farm than her, you'll be of alot more value especially if you can deny her to base early on.
So I bought Irelia the other night and have been watching wickd's stream for a few days now, and he seems to go against every guide I've seen posted, uses a 1/22/7 masteries and a few different rune pages but mostly "Irelia vs Bruiser" which is a 24MR at 18, 13Armor, 15AD page, haven't seen him make a wriggles once in probably 30 games that I've seen, almost always boot+pots into phage+wards on first back and scores a lvl3/4 kill more often than not, rarely farms his tower mostly stands mid lane and just harasses anyone who dares try to come last hit. Now the issue, I can barely even stay in lane and if I couldn't farm my tower for 90% of cs I would probably fall behind the other laner, but seems like I can never get out of this state, the game is either won or lost in other lanes while me and the other top just go at it never seems like either of us have a chance to join in team fights or anything cause the second one leaves the tower dies.
On January 23 2012 17:26 NotSorry wrote: So I bought Irelia the other night and have been watching wickd's stream for a few days now, and he seems to go against every guide I've seen posted, uses a 1/22/7 masteries and a few different rune pages but mostly "Irelia vs Bruiser" which is a 24MR at 18, 13Armor, 15AD page, haven't seen him make a wriggles once in probably 30 games that I've seen, almost always boot+pots into phage+wards on first back and scores a lvl3/4 kill more often than not, rarely farms his tower mostly stands mid lane and just harasses anyone who dares try to come last hit. Now the issue, I can barely even stay in lane and if I couldn't farm my tower for 90% of cs I would probably fall behind the other laner, but seems like I can never get out of this state, the game is either won or lost in other lanes while me and the other top just go at it never seems like either of us have a chance to join in team fights or anything cause the second one leaves the tower dies.
Regarding your issue, if you feel isolated from the rest of the lanes, apply more pressure at top by pushing your waves to the enemy tower giving you small windows to roam mid without losing too much xp. Best way to do this is pop W to clear the first wave in lane, then use your ult to clear the next wave arriving at the enemy tower. That gives you 30 seconds to roam before the next waves reaches the middle of the lane.
But honestly, unless you're at 1700-1800+ elo, I doubt you'll need to strategize counter builds like he's doing. You could just run the 31% attack speed and be a force in the lane until you start facing people smart enough to run Malphite/Nasus/Leesin counter picks.
On January 23 2012 17:26 NotSorry wrote: So I bought Irelia the other night and have been watching wickd's stream for a few days now, and he seems to go against every guide I've seen posted, uses a 1/22/7 masteries and a few different rune pages but mostly "Irelia vs Bruiser" which is a 24MR at 18, 13Armor, 15AD page, haven't seen him make a wriggles once in probably 30 games that I've seen, almost always boot+pots into phage+wards on first back and scores a lvl3/4 kill more often than not, rarely farms his tower mostly stands mid lane and just harasses anyone who dares try to come last hit. Now the issue, I can barely even stay in lane and if I couldn't farm my tower for 90% of cs I would probably fall behind the other laner, but seems like I can never get out of this state, the game is either won or lost in other lanes while me and the other top just go at it never seems like either of us have a chance to join in team fights or anything cause the second one leaves the tower dies.
So i saw the pantheon started meki pendant and i think the interviewer stated he had loads of armor runes. That's just plain bad i don't see how you will ever benefit from AS against someone like pantheon in the early levels. Sure later on it might get better, but by that time someone like pantheon will have denied you out of lane.
I'm wondering what the maths on armour quints vs ad quints for straight 1v1's look like. I suppose he runs full AD to last hit easier and because of his Q+auto hit harass he likes to use instead of playing defensively with E.
On January 23 2012 17:26 NotSorry wrote: So I bought Irelia the other night and have been watching wickd's stream for a few days now, and he seems to go against every guide I've seen posted, uses a 1/22/7 masteries and a few different rune pages but mostly "Irelia vs Bruiser" which is a 24MR at 18, 13Armor, 15AD page, haven't seen him make a wriggles once in probably 30 games that I've seen, almost always boot+pots into phage+wards on first back and scores a lvl3/4 kill more often than not, rarely farms his tower mostly stands mid lane and just harasses anyone who dares try to come last hit. Now the issue, I can barely even stay in lane and if I couldn't farm my tower for 90% of cs I would probably fall behind the other laner, but seems like I can never get out of this state, the game is either won or lost in other lanes while me and the other top just go at it never seems like either of us have a chance to join in team fights or anything cause the second one leaves the tower dies.
So i saw the pantheon started meki pendant and i think the interviewer stated he had loads of armor runes. That's just plain bad i don't see how you will ever benefit from AS against someone like pantheon in the early levels. Sure later on it might get better, but by that time someone like pantheon will have denied you out of lane.
If that pantheon had +25 armor pen/+19 armor runes and ran 21/2/7 then at level 1 his spearshot does roughly 56 damage to you if you have 55 armor. With attack speed runes you have .899 AS and can potentially heal for 36 hp in 4 seconds (spearshot CD) just off continuously attacking creeps. Without those runes you'd have .665 AS and would heal for 26 hp in 4 seconds. Now if you use one of your five health pots, that's another 10 hp/s regained. I just don't see how Irelia would get denied out of lane. Now an extra 2.3 hp/s at level 1 might not seem like a lot, but attack speed is the only thing that scales with your W. At level 9 you heal for an extra 6.1 hp/s (1.069 AS * 26 hp/hit = 27.81 hp/s vs 0.835 AS * 26 hp/hit = 21.71 hp/s) which is the equivalent of a _free_ 30 health regen/5.
As for dealing with pantheon's shield with attack speed runes, Wickd's build is all about bursting pantheon down when his shield is down. But from a logical point of view, building attack speed rather than attack damage negates his shield more. For example, Irelia build "A" has 2.00 AS, 100 AD while Irelia build "B" has 1.00 AS, 200 AD. Assuming his shield is up every 4 seconds, during a 4 second period "A" does 700 damage while "B" does 600.
Obviously Wickd's AD runes worked for him, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to approach a pantheon.
On January 23 2012 17:26 NotSorry wrote: So I bought Irelia the other night and have been watching wickd's stream for a few days now, and he seems to go against every guide I've seen posted, uses a 1/22/7 masteries and a few different rune pages but mostly "Irelia vs Bruiser" which is a 24MR at 18, 13Armor, 15AD page, haven't seen him make a wriggles once in probably 30 games that I've seen, almost always boot+pots into phage+wards on first back and scores a lvl3/4 kill more often than not, rarely farms his tower mostly stands mid lane and just harasses anyone who dares try to come last hit. Now the issue, I can barely even stay in lane and if I couldn't farm my tower for 90% of cs I would probably fall behind the other laner, but seems like I can never get out of this state, the game is either won or lost in other lanes while me and the other top just go at it never seems like either of us have a chance to join in team fights or anything cause the second one leaves the tower dies.
So i saw the pantheon started meki pendant and i think the interviewer stated he had loads of armor runes. That's just plain bad i don't see how you will ever benefit from AS against someone like pantheon in the early levels. Sure later on it might get better, but by that time someone like pantheon will have denied you out of lane.
Yeah the Panth in that video has to have Smash and Loci turning in their graves :/ I couldn't believe how many Chalice+Atmogs Pantheons I saw during free week lol.
I'm pretty bad and only level 25 but Irelia is my favourite champ. I was 100% following the top-rated guide on mobafire, which was magic penetration reds. Regrowth Pendant, Healt Potion, Philosopher's Stone, Merc Treads, Sheen -> Trinity Force, bla bla bla. Skills were Q W E and then max W.
I was useless until late game with this build, almost always lost my lane if the opponent had half a brain.
Since then I changed to AD runes. Cloth Armor, 5 Health Potions, Wriggles, Merc Treads (or Ninja Tabi), Recurve Bow -> Wit's End, Phage -> Trinity Force, bla bla bla.
Skills I like to do Q W E max W vs ranged. I find it's way too hard to last hit without Q vs ranged as you each so much damage every time you move in. VS melee I like E W W Q then max W or W E W Q. If you get pushed to your tower at level 3 you can W E Q and it's no big deal. You can do a lot of annoying damage if you E W and then smack them a few times when they come to last hit. Once you get up to Recurve Bow your W is super annoying.
Anyways, just writing my experience because I was terrible for like 50 games and finally with these changes I feel like I'm not an auto-loss on my lane.
I watched that Wick3d video guide and don't really agree with it. I know he's way way better than me but some of the justification he gave and some of the things he did (like hiding in the brush missing last hits and going back endlessly) didn't make sense to me.
On January 24 2012 03:06 Chill wrote: Just my personal experience:
I'm pretty bad and only level 25 but Irelia is my favourite champ. I was 100% following the top-rated guide on mobafire, which was magic penetration reds. Regrowth Pendant, Healt Potion, Philosopher's Stone, Merc Treads, Sheen -> Trinity Force, bla bla bla. Skills were Q W E and then max W.
I was useless until late game with this build, almost always lost my lane if the opponent had half a brain.
Since then I changed to AD runes. Cloth Armor, 5 Health Potions, Wriggles, Merc Treads (or Ninja Tabi), Recurve Bow -> Wit's End, Phage -> Trinity Force, bla bla bla.
Skills I like to do Q W E max W vs ranged. I find it's way too hard to last hit without Q vs ranged as you each so much damage every time you move in. VS melee I like E W W Q then max W. You can do a lot of annoying damage if you E W and then smack them a few times when they come to last hit. Once you get up to Recurve Bow your W is super annoying.
Anyways, just writing my experience because I was terrible for like 50 games and finally with these changes I feel like I'm not an auto-loss on my lane.
I watched that Wick3d video guide and don't really agree with it. I know he's way way better than me but some of the justification he gave and some of the things he did (like hiding in the brush missing last hits and going back endlessly) didn't make sense to me.
Mobafire... well... it's not the best place to get guides because there's a lot of low level hive mind there and you can have an "updated" guide without changing anything in it. That build was fine like 10 patches ago but play style top lane has changed since. Probably also copied of Chaox's guide on SoloMid, lol.
Wick3d plays a very different style of Irelia. He's been doing funky things for ages. It's probably influenced by arranged play. For example he goes back a lot to keep using up his banked gold and to give him an item advantage in lane. Wickd's playstyle is also one of the reasons g/10 fell out of favour on Irelia because Wickd just went "Well, if you're investing in g/10 I'll invest in items and just kill you straight up." Also where Chalice-Phage-Atma was first run iirc.
The dodging into brush also means that the enemy can't be sure if he's purposefully doing it or actually backed and gone somewhere else which helps if he wants to put pressure. It also means it's harder to be right-click harassed, especially against say Nidalee. It's probably not a great way to play solo-queue though but each to their own.
On January 24 2012 03:06 Chill wrote: Just my personal experience:
I'm pretty bad and only level 25 but Irelia is my favourite champ. I was 100% following the top-rated guide on mobafire, which was magic penetration reds. Regrowth Pendant, Healt Potion, Philosopher's Stone, Merc Treads, Sheen -> Trinity Force, bla bla bla. Skills were Q W E and then max W.
I was useless until late game with this build, almost always lost my lane if the opponent had half a brain.
Since then I changed to AD runes. Cloth Armor, 5 Health Potions, Wriggles, Merc Treads (or Ninja Tabi), Recurve Bow -> Wit's End, Phage -> Trinity Force, bla bla bla.
Skills I like to do Q W E max W vs ranged. I find it's way too hard to last hit without Q vs ranged as you each so much damage every time you move in. VS melee I like E W W Q then max W or W E W Q. If you get pushed to your tower at level 3 you can W E Q and it's no big deal. You can do a lot of annoying damage if you E W and then smack them a few times when they come to last hit. Once you get up to Recurve Bow your W is super annoying.
Anyways, just writing my experience because I was terrible for like 50 games and finally with these changes I feel like I'm not an auto-loss on my lane.
I watched that Wick3d video guide and don't really agree with it. I know he's way way better than me but some of the justification he gave and some of the things he did (like hiding in the brush missing last hits and going back endlessly) didn't make sense to me.
It was because of the jungler. If you're low health like that in a lane pushed that far you're basically free kill, but panth had to go back as well so if he goes back he stills retains advantage.
Also from watching wickds video and from all the irelia play in Kiev I'm under the impression you can play kinda agressive with early Q and W so you don't get owned by agressive laners, otherwise people wouldn't play her so much. Well, maybe not vs panth and gp.
Suggestions against a Morde top, been seeing it a lot lately and I can push him around and force a back or two before 5/6 but then he gets spell vamp and I can't trade anymore and sooner or later my tower drops. (Of course I never see my jungler, so looking for ways to deal without relying on him). I've tried a bunch of builds from wriggles to phage to rushing negatron for a fast FON.
try wit's end + mr boots. you trade much better because of the AS, can clear/heal off waves much faster, and it's a much better early-midgame item than FoN.
with wit's, If you carry ignite, you can potentially burst him down if he wastes his abilities pushing and doesn't keep his shield high. he's still squishy if he's rushing revolver/will, and he can't tank true damage/magic from wits.
Can anyone give me some tips vs GP? I've started cloth+5 and still got outlaned. I have a hard time deciding when to go in and stun him, since I'm afraid of the Q crit.
On January 24 2012 22:46 Doctorbeat wrote: Can anyone give me some tips vs GP? I've started cloth+5 and still got outlaned. I have a hard time deciding when to go in and stun him, since I'm afraid of the Q crit.
Bring ignite instead of teleport if you haven't already. Don't let him bully you away from the creep line, as long as you're not attacking creeps, you're not regaining health. If you start with cloth armor+5 pots, try to 625 gold and sneak in a quick base while your creeps are pushed to his tower. If you've done a decent job last hitting you'll have that amount by the 5 minute mark right after the 2nd cannon minion wave. Once you have ninja tabi and a ward, you should be able to take him easy in a 1v1 standoff. If he buys gp/5s then you should buy phage/wit's end and pressure the lane. Even if he has wriggle's he'll be considerably weaker than you in a 1v1. Don't be afraid to be aggressive because the passive sustain from W is OP.
How do you deal with Yorick? Is he killable 1v1, eventually? I survived a yorick earlier today, but I lost every trade I tried to do, even in midgame on equal cs. I think I only kept up by better mechanics. Is it just a farm off? Buy lots of armor early and try not to fight him?
On February 18 2012 02:14 theMarkovian wrote: How do you deal with Yorick? Is he killable 1v1, eventually? I survived a yorick earlier today, but I lost every trade I tried to do, even in midgame on equal cs. I think I only kept up by better mechanics. Is it just a farm off? Buy lots of armor early and try not to fight him?
I haven't done the match up for a while, but my recollection was that Yorick was really easy for Irelia if you specced defensively and opened leveling W first with a vamp scepter. You won't give two shits about his ghost harassment because you can continuously heal off of them.
On February 18 2012 02:14 theMarkovian wrote: How do you deal with Yorick? Is he killable 1v1, eventually? I survived a yorick earlier today, but I lost every trade I tried to do, even in midgame on equal cs. I think I only kept up by better mechanics. Is it just a farm off? Buy lots of armor early and try not to fight him?
Assuming you make it to wriggle's without too much difficulty you beat him in my experience.
On February 18 2012 03:06 Alaric wrote: Isn't Yorrick's main harass in lane magic damage? I recall being told that after my first Yorrick encounter made me rage IRL.
I might have just build wrong. I havent played him often. I dont really like wiggles usually, but Yorick might be the exception. I survived early game really well. I usually just dominate matchups after earlygame with defensive boots and a phage, but that didnt work this time.
On February 18 2012 03:06 Alaric wrote: Isn't Yorrick's main harass in lane magic damage? I recall being told that after my first Yorrick encounter made me rage IRL.
Yorick's only magic damage is the initial nuke on his W. The ghouls' damage and the nukes on Q and E are all physical.
EDIT: also, everyone get the fuck over wriggle's phobia, jesus. It's essentially a gold/10 item with the efficiency of a doran's item that sells for regular 70% of buy value. Are you kidding me? The item is goddamn absurd and I'm so tired of hearing people talk about how they "don't like it." It's good, period. If you use all the stats, you should buy it. Irelia uses all the stats. Suck it up and buy it, and then come back here and thank me as you win more games.
It's important to have all the defensive anti minion masteries against yorick. Reduces his damage by a ridiculous amount. -4 damage adds up.
If you get a fast jungle gank rushing sheen or phage into sheen can help you dominate him because you can just take him to 50% every time he gest in range to cast a spell, sheen giving you the mana to be able to do your combo without having to base too often. (can just get mana crystal, though). If you're not doing well, just get sustain like wriggles or wits end if not both.
On February 18 2012 03:06 Alaric wrote: Isn't Yorrick's main harass in lane magic damage? I recall being told that after my first Yorrick encounter made me rage IRL.
Yorick's only magic damage is the initial nuke on his W. The ghouls' damage and the nukes on Q and E are all physical.
EDIT: also, everyone get the fuck over wriggle's phobia, jesus. It's essentially a gold/10 item with the efficiency of a doran's item that sells for regular 70% of buy value. Are you kidding me? The item is goddamn absurd and I'm so tired of hearing people talk about how they "don't like it." It's good, period. If you use all the stats, you should buy it. Irelia uses all the stats. Suck it up and buy it, and then come back here and thank me as you win more games.
ive always been amazed at its sell value.
its what 1600? and sells for like 1100? plus the free wards etc etc.
On February 18 2012 03:06 Alaric wrote: Isn't Yorrick's main harass in lane magic damage? I recall being told that after my first Yorrick encounter made me rage IRL.
Yorick's only magic damage is the initial nuke on his W. The ghouls' damage and the nukes on Q and E are all physical.
EDIT: also, everyone get the fuck over wriggle's phobia, jesus. It's essentially a gold/10 item with the efficiency of a doran's item that sells for regular 70% of buy value. Are you kidding me? The item is goddamn absurd and I'm so tired of hearing people talk about how they "don't like it." It's good, period. If you use all the stats, you should buy it. Irelia uses all the stats. Suck it up and buy it, and then come back here and thank me as you win more games.
Yorick's E is one of those skills that scales on attack damage but actually does magic damage. At least that's what it said last time I read the description.
On February 18 2012 03:06 Alaric wrote: Isn't Yorrick's main harass in lane magic damage? I recall being told that after my first Yorrick encounter made me rage IRL.
Yorick's only magic damage is the initial nuke on his W. The ghouls' damage and the nukes on Q and E are all physical.
EDIT: also, everyone get the fuck over wriggle's phobia, jesus. It's essentially a gold/10 item with the efficiency of a doran's item that sells for regular 70% of buy value. Are you kidding me? The item is goddamn absurd and I'm so tired of hearing people talk about how they "don't like it." It's good, period. If you use all the stats, you should buy it. Irelia uses all the stats. Suck it up and buy it, and then come back here and thank me as you win more games.
from wiki:
(Active): Yorick deals magic damage to the target and heals for 40% of the damage dealt. A Ravenous Ghoul is summoned behind the target and it will heal Yorick for the damage it deals.
which explains why yorick was trucking my 72 armor setup on shen, kus i only had 24 mres
On February 18 2012 03:06 Alaric wrote: Isn't Yorrick's main harass in lane magic damage? I recall being told that after my first Yorrick encounter made me rage IRL.
Yorick's only magic damage is the initial nuke on his W. The ghouls' damage and the nukes on Q and E are all physical.
EDIT: also, everyone get the fuck over wriggle's phobia, jesus. It's essentially a gold/10 item with the efficiency of a doran's item that sells for regular 70% of buy value. Are you kidding me? The item is goddamn absurd and I'm so tired of hearing people talk about how they "don't like it." It's good, period. If you use all the stats, you should buy it. Irelia uses all the stats. Suck it up and buy it, and then come back here and thank me as you win more games.
Yorick's E is one of those skills that scales on attack damage but actually does magic damage. At least that's what it said last time I read the description.
(Active): Yorick deals magic damage to the target and heals for 40% of the damage dealt. A Ravenous Ghoul is summoned behind the target and it will heal Yorick for the damage it deals.
yea, that's weird, I looked it up before posting that but I must've looked at a bad source, oh well. Still mostly physical, but I guess that drives it more towards an even split. god, what a gaymosexual champion.
So I picked up Irelia again (she sort of was my first love in a way, the very first champion I bought with IP) after a good while of not really playing her and I'm not sure what to rune. I checked rune pages of a couple of known Irelia players and they all seem to disagree with each other. Especially Wickd's runes seem odd to me. I don't get the idea of AD runes on someone with such a weak early game.
What I'm running right now is a AS Reds, Armor Yellows, Flat MR Blues if against AP, scaling MR if against AD and flat MR/Armor Quints, depending on the matchup. 21/9/0 because, fuck it, offense tree OP. My logic behind this was is that generally, I need to play defensively until I hit at least level 5. My runes help me doing that I don't really need AD reds to lasthit because of W and Q, I don't really like ArP reds on her because I'd like to think I play a very W centric build, hence the AS reds. Any opinions on that?
Also: in which scenarios do you guys find yourself getting Triforce these days? I've been running a Phage->Wit's or Wit's->Phage into Atma's and THEN get my Triforce. I've been toying with the idea of mallet, but I don't see it being such a great item on her. I'd rather get a Giant's Belt, Triforce, then Warmog's. Any opinions on that?
Edit: Wriggle's for harder lanes, obviously. Can't skip that shit against a Riven.
On February 18 2012 03:06 Alaric wrote: Isn't Yorrick's main harass in lane magic damage? I recall being told that after my first Yorrick encounter made me rage IRL.
Yorick's only magic damage is the initial nuke on his W. The ghouls' damage and the nukes on Q and E are all physical.
EDIT: also, everyone get the fuck over wriggle's phobia, jesus. It's essentially a gold/10 item with the efficiency of a doran's item that sells for regular 70% of buy value. Are you kidding me? The item is goddamn absurd and I'm so tired of hearing people talk about how they "don't like it." It's good, period. If you use all the stats, you should buy it. Irelia uses all the stats. Suck it up and buy it, and then come back here and thank me as you win more games.
You know how Nasus basically ignores everything you throws at him, not even noticing you while you burn all your cds at him on top of auto-attack, only to get back and pot up if you add some ignite on top? Well, Irelia needs level 2-3 Hiten and wriggles, but she does that to Tryndamere and other guys with proper rune setup. Wriggles + boots + wit's end is reasonnably tanky and gives you both damage and sustain, lane on against a lot of tops.
Edit: NO mallet. Don't you make Smash lose hair again, you bad person. On a more serious tone, Irelia has flat sustain in hiten style, and some heal in her ult. She scales way better off resists than HP then. You'll have to get HP at one point, but nowhere near an amount that would make Atma's interesting, nor Mallet or, God forbid, Warmogs. If you want HP, get it from triforce, randuin's, aegis. Those are all amazing items on her, so much utility from triforce, randuin's allowing her to stick to people even better, unkitable thanks to her passive + gapcloser + randuin's' active and passive, and aegis is amazing on almost anybody, so yeah.
In certain match-ups I guess philo start into Shurelya is good to get some HP and sustain too, I just don't really remember which ones. At any rate, Triforce > Mallet all day on Irelia. Sit on your Phage and compliment it with whatever component you'll need if you want HP (kindlegem if Shurelya's, Ruby if Aegis, HoG if Randuin's).
On February 18 2012 06:36 Shiv. wrote: So I picked up Irelia again (she sort of was my first love in a way, the very first champion I bought with IP) after a good while of not really playing her and I'm not sure what to rune. I checked rune pages of a couple of known Irelia players and they all seem to disagree with each other. Especially Wickd's runes seem odd to me. I don't get the idea of AD runes on someone with such a weak early game.
What I'm running right now is a AS Reds, Armor Yellows, Flat MR Blues if against AP, scaling MR if against AD and flat MR/Armor Quints, depending on the matchup. 21/9/0 because, fuck it, offense tree OP. My logic behind this was is that generally, I need to play defensively until I hit at least level 5. My runes help me doing that I don't really need AD reds to lasthit because of W and Q, I don't really like ArP reds on her because I'd like to think I play a very W centric build, hence the AS reds. Any opinions on that?
Also: in which scenarios do you guys find yourself getting Triforce these days? I've been running a Phage->Wit's or Wit's->Phage into Atma's and THEN get my Triforce. I've been toying with the idea of mallet, but I don't see it being such a great item on her. I'd rather get a Giant's Belt, Triforce, then Warmog's. Any opinions on that?
AS Reds, Armor Yellows, matchup dependent other runes all looks right to me. Would suggest running some HP regen quints in your spec in harass heavy lanes, but it depends on what luxuries you have in terms of rune page availability. AS just outperforms ArPen and AD on Reds, no idea why people would run either of them since Irelia doesn't need help last hitting (AD) nor do you really try to kill people early (ArPen).
Irelia's just WW 2.0, so the idea of building a lot of HP has always struck me as absurd. My builds are always just wriggle's, wit's, triforce, with work towards Omen, GA, or FoN as necessary. More HP than Phage + HoG feels generally like a waste.
For masteries, ehhhh, as OP as offensive tree is, I've finally switched over to 9/21/0 in most matchups. The -2 damage from all sources thing is a lot better than I've been willing to give it credit for and just grabbing a bunch of HP, resists and fuck, even some HP Regen can go a long way towards suring up early lane difficulties. Would still go 21/9/0 if the lane allows, but as soon as I pick Irelia the other team picks some giant asshole to lane vs. me so I just say fuck it, spec defensively and wait out my wriggle's.
EDIT: I actually understand and can accept Mallet on Irelia vs. Singed or Nidalee. It's not ideal, but maxing Q 2nd and grabbing Mallet is a reasonable solution to the getting-kited-to-death-by-an-uncatchable-asshole problem. If you're getting Mallet, wait on the upgrade until after the recurve portion of Wit's at the very least, if not the full Wit's End.
Thanks for the guidance. In hindsight, dunno what I've been thinking wanting to go Warmog's. The WW comparison is really nice and makes your build look much better than the one I've been doing. Do you get the HoG earlyish if the lane allows it or are you just going Warden's into Omen?
On February 18 2012 07:09 Shiv. wrote: Thanks for the guidance. In hindsight, dunno what I've been thinking wanting to go Warmog's. The WW comparison is really nice and makes your build look much better than the one I've been doing. Do you get the HoG earlyish if the lane allows it or are you just going Warden's into Omen?
yea, I'll get HoG after Wriggle's + Boots if that's all I need in lane or I'll pick up a HoG quickly around the time I get phage if I feel I need the HP vs. mages, but otherwise I'll just go Warden's -> Omen later on.
On February 18 2012 06:36 Shiv. wrote: So I picked up Irelia again (she sort of was my first love in a way, the very first champion I bought with IP) after a good while of not really playing her and I'm not sure what to rune. I checked rune pages of a couple of known Irelia players and they all seem to disagree with each other. Especially Wickd's runes seem odd to me. I don't get the idea of AD runes on someone with such a weak early game.
What I'm running right now is a AS Reds, Armor Yellows, Flat MR Blues if against AP, scaling MR if against AD and flat MR/Armor Quints, depending on the matchup. 21/9/0 because, fuck it, offense tree OP. My logic behind this was is that generally, I need to play defensively until I hit at least level 5. My runes help me doing that I don't really need AD reds to lasthit because of W and Q, I don't really like ArP reds on her because I'd like to think I play a very W centric build, hence the AS reds. Any opinions on that?
Also: in which scenarios do you guys find yourself getting Triforce these days? I've been running a Phage->Wit's or Wit's->Phage into Atma's and THEN get my Triforce. I've been toying with the idea of mallet, but I don't see it being such a great item on her. I'd rather get a Giant's Belt, Triforce, then Warmog's. Any opinions on that?
AS Reds, Armor Yellows, matchup dependent other runes all looks right to me. Would suggest running some HP regen quints in your spec in harass heavy lanes, but it depends on what luxuries you have in terms of rune page availability. AS just outperforms ArPen and AD on Reds, no idea why people would run either of them since Irelia doesn't need help last hitting (AD) nor do you really try to kill people early (ArPen).
Irelia's just WW 2.0, so the idea of building a lot of HP has always struck me as absurd. My builds are always just wriggle's, wit's, triforce, with work towards Omen, GA, or FoN as necessary. More HP than Phage + HoG feels generally like a waste.
For masteries, ehhhh, as OP as offensive tree is, I've finally switched over to 9/21/0 in most matchups. The -2 damage from all sources thing is a lot better than I've been willing to give it credit for and just grabbing a bunch of HP, resists and fuck, even some HP Regen can go a long way towards suring up early lane difficulties. Would still go 21/9/0 if the lane allows, but as soon as I pick Irelia the other team picks some giant asshole to lane vs. me so I just say fuck it, spec defensively and wait out my wriggle's.
EDIT: I actually understand and can accept Mallet on Irelia vs. Singed or Nidalee. It's not ideal, but maxing Q 2nd and grabbing Mallet is a reasonable solution to the getting-kited-to-death-by-an-uncatchable-asshole problem. If you're getting Mallet, wait on the upgrade until after the recurve portion of Wit's at the very least, if not the full Wit's End.
Would there be any other situations where you would pick mallet over say Tri-force from your phage?
On February 18 2012 06:36 Shiv. wrote: So I picked up Irelia again (she sort of was my first love in a way, the very first champion I bought with IP) after a good while of not really playing her and I'm not sure what to rune. I checked rune pages of a couple of known Irelia players and they all seem to disagree with each other. Especially Wickd's runes seem odd to me. I don't get the idea of AD runes on someone with such a weak early game.
What I'm running right now is a AS Reds, Armor Yellows, Flat MR Blues if against AP, scaling MR if against AD and flat MR/Armor Quints, depending on the matchup. 21/9/0 because, fuck it, offense tree OP. My logic behind this was is that generally, I need to play defensively until I hit at least level 5. My runes help me doing that I don't really need AD reds to lasthit because of W and Q, I don't really like ArP reds on her because I'd like to think I play a very W centric build, hence the AS reds. Any opinions on that?
Also: in which scenarios do you guys find yourself getting Triforce these days? I've been running a Phage->Wit's or Wit's->Phage into Atma's and THEN get my Triforce. I've been toying with the idea of mallet, but I don't see it being such a great item on her. I'd rather get a Giant's Belt, Triforce, then Warmog's. Any opinions on that?
AS Reds, Armor Yellows, matchup dependent other runes all looks right to me. Would suggest running some HP regen quints in your spec in harass heavy lanes, but it depends on what luxuries you have in terms of rune page availability. AS just outperforms ArPen and AD on Reds, no idea why people would run either of them since Irelia doesn't need help last hitting (AD) nor do you really try to kill people early (ArPen).
Irelia's just WW 2.0, so the idea of building a lot of HP has always struck me as absurd. My builds are always just wriggle's, wit's, triforce, with work towards Omen, GA, or FoN as necessary. More HP than Phage + HoG feels generally like a waste.
For masteries, ehhhh, as OP as offensive tree is, I've finally switched over to 9/21/0 in most matchups. The -2 damage from all sources thing is a lot better than I've been willing to give it credit for and just grabbing a bunch of HP, resists and fuck, even some HP Regen can go a long way towards suring up early lane difficulties. Would still go 21/9/0 if the lane allows, but as soon as I pick Irelia the other team picks some giant asshole to lane vs. me so I just say fuck it, spec defensively and wait out my wriggle's.
EDIT: I actually understand and can accept Mallet on Irelia vs. Singed or Nidalee. It's not ideal, but maxing Q 2nd and grabbing Mallet is a reasonable solution to the getting-kited-to-death-by-an-uncatchable-asshole problem. If you're getting Mallet, wait on the upgrade until after the recurve portion of Wit's at the very least, if not the full Wit's End.
Would there be any other situations where you would pick mallet over say Tri-force from your phage?
Is Irelia supposed to win a lane vs tiger Udyr? I just played it and while I'm pretty bad at laning at this point, I felt like we'd trade pretty evenly and then he'd turtle stance and heal back in 2 seconds.
having played the matchup from both sides i'm pretty sure that's one of irelia's only tough lanes. i don't think you can ever trade effectively with a tiger if he runs 21 offense, either. your best bet would be to purely farm and juke his bear stun with q. i find it quite helpful to run boots+3 and ms quints vs tiger udyr
There's no easy way really. You can try wriggles to just farm as much as possible. You can also try tabi+wits end rush and sneak in an E stun somewhere past level 9 and burst him with your EW+Q with W active+R and ignite. Wits end is nice because udyrs often get tabi+wriggles so you really don't want too much physical damage.
If you get ahead of udyr via a gank or something, you can stay ahead decently because of true damage versus underleveled (less hp) target. Udyr has a very hard time safely harassing because he makes it so fucking obvious when he hits Q and runs at you and doesn't have an easy escape against a red buff high damage jungler. (Versus low damage shield spam especially if he has mercs make him hard to kill)
The main problem is he can just stay ahead if you don't get help from jungle get a cs lead and it becomes hard for you. Just playing safe with wards (die once to gank and you're probably screwed) and farming what you can without taking too much damage and hope your jungler finds a good time to gank him.
I think people's problems vs Udyr come from the fact that Tiger/Phoenix does magic damage. You need to start boots and potions then get merc's + negatron (for FoN later), chalice, wits end, spirit visage, even aegis if you can afford it. Opening Cloth armour and going for wriggles and tabi, which are great on her in most lanes, is a good way to lose the lane vs Udyr. Especially if you're using MR/level blues.
hmm, I've always done wriggle's + wit's opening and found the matchup pretty straightforward and easy. maybe I've just played vs. bad udyr solos but it's always seemed like I can trade favorably by just attacking him and then waiting on his bear stun before activating W active and then EQ or QEing him. just feels like you have an advantage because you're leveling up your damage and sustain at the same time while he has to pick and choose.
I've been skipping wriggles on her almost every game lately just to get a faster triforce. Basically starting boots or cloth armour, then building just one laning item, (Philo, Wits, Chalice, Wriggles) item and go strait into phage,sheen,and triforce. The jump in power once you have sheen and phage is incredible. You become such a high threat to every carry on the enemy team, while wriggles is kinda meh. If you're losing the lane wriggle's will help you stay in the lane, but I just don't feel it should be built if you're already ahead, you've already got incredible sustain. I guess its just personal preference, but if I don't have sheen and phage at 20 minutes I feel like I'm behind.
On February 23 2012 03:26 Sabin010 wrote: I've been skipping wriggles on her almost every game lately just to get a faster triforce. Basically starting boots or cloth armour, then building just one laning item, (Philo, Wits, Chalice, Wriggles) item and go strait into phage,sheen,and triforce. The jump in power once you have sheen and phage is incredible. You become such a high threat to every carry on the enemy team, while wriggles is kinda meh. If you're losing the lane wriggle's will help you stay in the lane, but I just don't feel it should be built if you're already ahead, you've already got incredible sustain. I guess its just personal preference, but if I don't have sheen and phage at 20 minutes I feel like I'm behind.
So...
In just what kind of a situation is it even possible for you to not have a Phage and a Sheen by 20 minutes even if you go Wriggles first?
On February 23 2012 03:45 Sabin010 wrote: If I go Wriggles, and wits I just don't have enough gold to get sheen boots 2 and phage. Maybe I miss too many creepies.
with wriggle's + wit's, that's not unreasonable. I prefer wriggle's + wit's -> phage -> tanky triforce, but I've seen all sort of build orders work on irelia.
Been pretty pleased with my irelia recently. These two games in a row got me to 2300, usually irelias my go to when someone else wants to jungle, but top is open so I don't support hueuhe. Better post em now before I lose my luck streak and end up back down to 1400 :D:D:D
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/255593/ I got a little lucky in lane after I didn't realize shen had FB and almost killed me early, but it worked out well overall. Laned against shen: runes: MR quints/blues flat, armour yellows, AD reds (generic anti magic/physical or magic damage page, maybe AS better for irelia but AD at elast scales with q and r)
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/255596/ I'm with alex ich, gosu pepper playing support karth and diamondprox shyvana. I had suspicions of diamond ganking me both times but the secnod time I just got baited anyway like a tard. I laned against rumble, found it quite easy but I'm quite experienced against rumble in general, although not with irelia. (prolly first irelia vs rumble) Same runepage. We kinda got carried because they had support karthus and malzahar though :X.
My top has imrproved quite a bit, although again my whole team did well in these games and the gamesi posted in the udyr thread so I don't feel like I "carried". Hopefully should be high enough skil level to entertain you guys though.
The game I didn't go triforce was because I figured they didn't have that many kitey champions but I really wanted to be tanky, so I just got some sustained damage and laning strength and then went for tank items.
On February 27 2012 07:49 Slayer91 wrote: Been pretty pleased with my irelia recently. These two games in a row got me to 2300, usually irelias my go to when someone else wants to jungle, but top is open so I don't support hueuhe. Better post em now before I lose my luck streak and end up back down to 1400 :D:D:D
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/255593/ I got a little lucky in lane after I didn't realize shen had FB and almost killed me early, but it worked out well overall. Laned against shen: runes: MR quints/blues flat, armour yellows, AD reds (generic anti magic/physical or magic damage page, maybe AS better for irelia but AD at elast scales with q and r)
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/255596/ I'm with alex ich, gosu pepper playing support karth and diamondprox shyvana. I had suspicions of diamond ganking me both times but the secnod time I just got baited anyway like a tard. I laned against rumble, found it quite easy but I'm quite experienced against rumble in general, although not with irelia. (prolly first irelia vs rumble) Same runepage. We kinda got carried because they had support karthus and malzahar though :X.
My top has imrproved quite a bit, although again my whole team did well in these games and the gamesi posted in the udyr thread so I don't feel like I "carried". Hopefully should be high enough skil level to entertain you guys though.
The game I didn't go triforce was because I figured they didn't have that many kitey champions but I really wanted to be tanky, so I just got some sustained damage and laning strength and then went for tank items.
So I play on Mac and hence can't look at those replays, but I'd like your advice on Irelia vs Rumble if that's possible. If I'm not mistaken, I recall Smash saying it's one of the toughest matchups for Irelia and that he'd straight up rush FoN. (Don't quote me on that, it just got stuck in my head.)
I have played the MU numerous times and I feel I can barely do anything pre Wit's End. I run the same runes (AS instead of AD though) and while I'm able to farm just fine, I feel like the matchup is basically decided by the jungle presence both of you get. If I'm able to farm passively until I hit my soft spot, I continuously find myself being able to boss Rumble around like it's nobody's business, but if their jungler manages to accomplish anything early on, I'm pretty fucked.
How do you approach that matchup? When do you start being aggressive, are there any pointers when to engage (besides the obvious too much or no heat), how do you build against him?
i'll change my stance on that matchup. It shouldn't be too tough tbh. Playing wukong has changed my general outlook vs. rumble drastically and Irelia has all the tools necessary to play the matchup just fine.
Yep. I used to rush FoN on garen back when rumble was considered OP as hell and eventually I realized he's not all that scary when you get used to him.
Diamondprox has 2 sucessful ganks on me that game, I don't think alex got a good gank off on rumble though. The second gank killed me when it shouldn't , I just didn't place the ward I had because I forgot, but I got lucky killing rumble when he tried to push and b but I q'd to a creep and to him and killed him just when he finished pushing so it equalized the lane again and I had no problems then.
I think I went something like boots+3-->null magic-->ruby crystal-->wits end or something. I think some people were building spirit visage against him but I think they just wanted the hp more than anything. If you're really scared get regrowth maybe convert it into a fon if you like but you'd probably have to rush straight trinity after to get yourself back in the game damage wise.
Laning versus rumble is mostly a matter of just not letting him do damage to you for free, either zone yourself or trade with him when he's on CD to secure farm. Just be careful you don't get too low to towerdive because rumble will always be pushing so the only way you can get ganked with a ward is towerdives.
Am I the only one that thinks Irelia actually beats Yorick once she gets to level ~7?
First levels are hell because he just keeps throwing ghouls at you and they hurt a lot. But then you buy Wit's End and merc treads then proceed to jump on him and just AA him to death.
I also love when he throws Ghouls at me when I'm at low health/half, because you just heal right off of them.
On February 28 2012 02:47 Cloud9157 wrote: Am I the only one that thinks Irelia actually beats Yorick once she gets to level ~7?
First levels are hell because he just keeps throwing ghouls at you and they hurt a lot. But then you buy Wit's End and merc treads then proceed to jump on him and just AA him to death.
I also love when he throws Ghouls at me when I'm at low health/half, because you just heal right off of them.
speccing 21 defensive with the -damage and -minion damage masteries makes the matchup pretty straight forward. wriggle's -> wit's, then you just come out ahead in all trades. It's still kinda frustrating that he gets to wear you down without ever having to overextend, whereas you have to use up CDs and go balls deep to trade with him, but ultimately irelia trades well with him and it's not too bad.
Does Irelia really need Wriggles? I've been trying Beseker's Greaves straight into Recurve Bow -> Wit's End, Phage -> Trinity Force.
I get that Wriggles just gives you solid sustainability and base damage, but Irelia already has all that in her W. If you just rush attack speed and use W to beat on anyone in top lane, it seems to work just as well, while your midgame build gets up way faster by just skipping Wriggles altogether and getting a quicker Phage.
Irelia doesn't need Wriggles against some lane matchups and she doesn't really need the help in farm either. Sometimes it indeed is better to go for a faster triforce or Wits end, namely against casters you usually are going to rush Wits End instead of a Wriggles.
unless you get stupidly far ahead to begin with, at which point phage or sheen rush is better.
of your examples, only teemo is mislabeled, wriggle's is incredibly important vs. Teemo IMO, as 50+% of his damage is the attack damage and you mitigate a lot of his poison damage with the -2 damage defensive mastery anyway. also, since he does sustained harass, healing off of creeps is vital.
On March 02 2012 02:57 Mogwai wrote: Is 50% or more of their damage physical?
if yes: wriggle's if no: not wriggle's
unless you get stupidly far ahead to begin with, at which point phage or sheen rush is better.
of your examples, only teemo is mislabeled, wriggle's is incredibly important vs. Teemo IMO, as 50+% of his damage is the attack damage and you mitigate a lot of his poison damage with the -2 damage defensive mastery anyway. also, since he does sustained harass, healing off of creeps is vital.
Phage and sheen are both VERY good if you get an early kill from a gank or something. You can chase them with phage procs and sheen helps up that burst damage on your combo a bit. I generally go wriggles-->trinity without wits end if I'm doing well.
On March 02 2012 02:43 Chill wrote: Does Irelia really need Wriggles? I've been trying Beseker's Greaves straight into Recurve Bow -> Wit's End, Phage -> Trinity Force.
I get that Wriggles just gives you solid sustainability and base damage, but Irelia already has all that in her W. If you just rush attack speed and use W to beat on anyone in top lane, it seems to work just as well, while your midgame build gets up way faster by just skipping Wriggles altogether and getting a quicker Phage.
Wriggles is good to have vs very melee heavy teams / ad heavy. But even think I still think you can manage just fine without it tbh, you just need to be a bit more careful
Got ridiculously crushed against Olaf I felt like I couldn't do anything at level 3. His Reckless Swing does soooooo much damage. Eventually I had to just sit at my tower. =(
I do not like wriggles on Irelia at all. Unless you are going a against something and trade while using it as a tipping point with Irelia which basically does not exist. W gives enough sustain and wriggles does not help much vs any pysical top more than a sheen or phage, Sheen for E, W auto twice back of and Phage for killing stuff.
It helps again champs trying to outpush you, gives such sustain that you can basically ignore certain champs once you've got the advantage, and allows you to trade harder since you heal back up a lot faster. I like it because once I have it, I can shove the lane and go gank/help my jungler, or just back (I tend to back a lot with Irelia to buy parts of items), then be here before the wave's at my tower.
There are also champs that will match your sustain, with or without wriggles (esp. since you need to autoattack to sustain).
On March 03 2012 04:12 Alaric wrote: It helps again champs trying to outpush you, gives such sustain that you can basically ignore certain champs once you've got the advantage, and allows you to trade harder since you heal back up a lot faster. I like it because once I have it, I can shove the lane and go gank/help my jungler, or just back (I tend to back a lot with Irelia to buy parts of items), then be here before the wave's at my tower.
There are also champs that will match your sustain, with or without wriggles (esp. since you need to autoattack to sustain).
I think a fast wits end is a better investment than wriggles.You push a lane/heal with R and not with autos so meh. I don't think I have seen wriggles on a Irelia for a long time now. Its safe ill give you that but highly unnecessary imo and just delays your phage and wits.
Whenever I try to steal a buff after pushing and warding, I like that wriggles to speed it up. Then again, it's because the enemy jungler wasn't there at spawn, nothing to do with Irelia and wriggles in particular...
On March 03 2012 03:21 Chill wrote: Got ridiculously crushed against Olaf I felt like I couldn't do anything at level 3. His Reckless Swing does soooooo much damage. Eventually I had to just sit at my tower. =(
I would personally rush a philo against an olaf maxing E. Use Q to last hit creeps then run away. If olaf gets really aggessive trying to zone you then as soon as olaf Es you, you stun him with your E then get a couple of hits on him with w activated.
You probably aren't ever going to win that matchup in the early levels, but the above style should turn it into a free farm until you have enough health to shrug off his nuke.
Just my opinion on how to play the matchup, though I am curious to see how others would approach it.
On March 03 2012 03:21 Chill wrote: Got ridiculously crushed against Olaf I felt like I couldn't do anything at level 3. His Reckless Swing does soooooo much damage. Eventually I had to just sit at my tower. =(
I would personally rush a philo against an olaf maxing E. Use Q to last hit creeps then run away. If olaf gets really aggessive trying to zone you then as soon as olaf Es you, you stun him with your E then get a couple of hits on him with w activated.
You probably aren't ever going to win that matchup in the early levels, but the above style should turn it into a free farm until you have enough health to shrug off his nuke.
Just my opinion on how to play the matchup, though I am curious to see how others would approach it.
Interesting. I don't have enough matchup experience to deviate my build like that. I'll give it a try next time vs Olaf, thanks.
On March 03 2012 03:21 Chill wrote: Got ridiculously crushed against Olaf I felt like I couldn't do anything at level 3. His Reckless Swing does soooooo much damage. Eventually I had to just sit at my tower. =(
I would personally rush a philo against an olaf maxing E. Use Q to last hit creeps then run away. If olaf gets really aggessive trying to zone you then as soon as olaf Es you, you stun him with your E then get a couple of hits on him with w activated.
You probably aren't ever going to win that matchup in the early levels, but the above style should turn it into a free farm until you have enough health to shrug off his nuke.
Just my opinion on how to play the matchup, though I am curious to see how others would approach it.
Interesting. I don't have enough matchup experience to deviate my build like that. I'll give it a try next time vs Olaf, thanks.
Erm I don't see the point of maxing E really. Olaf doesn't have any hard CC so when he hits you with his slow and tries to walk up to you,you can just stun him with your lvl 1 E and walk away,as your E has a slight range its not melee.Just avoid straight up exchanges against him and don't let him combo you and you will be fine.There's nothing bad with sitting under your turret as Irelia against a lane you don't feel comfortable with and you don't know how to play it or your just behind.Just ward the river so you don't get blamed for top roaming. Get your tabi asap,and than get a phage/wits from there imo.
Yea just rechecked,reckless swing has 325 range and your E has 425.So you should always be able to slow/stun him before he wrecks you with a swing if you feel like you can't afford to take it.
So the gameplan is just never be more than 325 range vs him? That's going to be difficult to put into practise if you don't want to fall behind in CS. Even using your Q to farm followed by an E to escape is going to drain your mana too quickly to be sustainable. I just found it very difficult. Usually I can feel what I did wrong but that time I just got crushed hard.
On March 03 2012 03:21 Chill wrote: Got ridiculously crushed against Olaf I felt like I couldn't do anything at level 3. His Reckless Swing does soooooo much damage. Eventually I had to just sit at my tower. =(
I would personally rush a philo against an olaf maxing E. Use Q to last hit creeps then run away. If olaf gets really aggessive trying to zone you then as soon as olaf Es you, you stun him with your E then get a couple of hits on him with w activated.
You probably aren't ever going to win that matchup in the early levels, but the above style should turn it into a free farm until you have enough health to shrug off his nuke.
Just my opinion on how to play the matchup, though I am curious to see how others would approach it.
Interesting. I don't have enough matchup experience to deviate my build like that. I'll give it a try next time vs Olaf, thanks.
Erm I don't see the point of maxing E really. Olaf doesn't have any hard CC so when he hits you with his slow you can just stun him with your lvl 1 E and walk away.Just avoid straight up exchanges against him and don't let him combo you and you will be fine.There's nothing bad with sitting under your turret as Irelia against a lane you don't feel comfortable with and you don't know how to play it or your just behind. Get your tabi asap,and than get a phage from there imo.
Olaf's maxing E, not irelia. But I would avoid picking irelia into Olaf because it's a very, very hard lane to win unless you get so ahead you can commit and kill him any time he's not under tower. If I had to though I'd probably take flash+teleport because the goal is just to survive lane. You'll need to prioritize building flat health over other things though(HoG, phage) to reduce the relative shock damage of his nuke when you do get hit and 100% get a wriggles for this lane.
Olaf's considered a counter in lane to irelia though, so don't feel too bad if you do get beaten by him.
On March 03 2012 07:49 Chill wrote: So the gameplan is just never be more than 325 range vs him? That's going to be difficult to put into practise if you don't want to fall behind in CS. Even using your Q to farm followed by an E to escape is going to drain your mana too quickly to be sustainable. I just found it very difficult. Usually I can feel what I did wrong but that time I just got crushed hard.
Well you I'm not saying you have to always do it.There will be periods in the game(especially in the top lane) where you will just loose straight up in engagements and there is nothing that can be done about it. It's a way bigger deal to loose 80% of your hp while trying to go even on farm during that period against your lane than letting him push slightly towards your tower where you will feel safer and it will let your jungler go in for a gank.I'm saying if you feel like you can't win at a certain point in time,just take a step back and play way passive till you get the item or lvl that can turn the lane around.Even if that means going down on cs against him,you will make up for it by not dying.If you miss a few cs you will get behind on farm a bit but you will get the xp at least,but if you loose most of your hp trying to stay even on farm you will either die,or you will be forced to constantly go back,so you will loose farm again and xp.
On March 03 2012 03:21 Chill wrote: Got ridiculously crushed against Olaf I felt like I couldn't do anything at level 3. His Reckless Swing does soooooo much damage. Eventually I had to just sit at my tower. =(
What runes/items/Masteries/skill order do you use against Olaf? I would personally use hp/5 quints vs Olaf.
Olaf is a hard matchup, With his recent buffs, many times I've gotten my Irelia "counterpicked" by olaf in ranked.
First you need to look at your runes, I go with a combination of flat health/health regen quints, hp per level yellows, attack speed reds and blues don't matter for this match up but I go for magic resists (per level). Masteries I go with 0-21-9.
For the item build, I open boots + 3 hp pots and usually run flash + ignite, although flash + teleport is ok. If the match up is even or you're slightly behind then get philo asap, otherwise get phage.
For the skill order, I don't think there's anything set in stone. Sometimes I get Q first because I helped leash blue and I don't want to lose creeps as I come into lane, then I'll start trading hits once I am level 3 and have all my skills. If you get W first and E second you can trade hits as soon as level 2. As for maxing E over W or not, I don't have a clear rule and I get away by mixing it up most of the time. Higher levels of E will let you do more damage in trades and higher levels in W will let you sustain better but you can't sustain if you can't hit the creeps because you're getting zoned so level them up as you see fit. Sometimes I'll get a second level on my Q because I feel like I can flash and kill him.
For the actual match up, do not try to avoid his E, in fact stay between your creeps and make him come at you to cast it, As soon as you get damaged you stun him with your own E, activate W and auto him. Two things may happen after he recovers from the stun: Your creeps are few and not doing enough damage for him to back off, then he will keep attacking you in which case you want to keep autoattacking but back off before he can use his E a second time; your own creeps damaging and blocking him and your own speed should prevent him to land a second E while chasing (make sure to dodge his axe). The second thing that can happen is that he backs off immediately in which case keep autoattacking him then possibly Q him and auto him again then back away immediately before he has a chance to use his E a second time. In both cases the important thing is that you LEARN THE COOLDOWN on his E. Look up the numbers. In every trade, if he doesn't get to use his E a second time, you should come out even or only very slightly behind depending on the amount of axes that he landed, and Irelia has better sustain particularly after level 6. So there's no way to lose right? There's another thing that may happen and that's him using his ult immediately after you stun him, obviously you want to back off and let him zone you for the duration of his ult.
Ideally, he will back off immediately after getting stunned which will let you get a Q and some more autos before he turns back. For that to happen you need to control the creepwave; do not get outpushed (so badly). If olaf is autoattacking the creep wave, either do the same thing yourself if you need health, or harass him if possible or ask your jungler for ganks. Olaf is really vulnerable to ganks. But if you can't rely on your jungler, then you can't let your creepwave get annihilated or you won't be able to trade hits with him. And if you want to farm then you have to show him that you're not about to bend over and run away as soon as he gets close to you. However if you can rely on your jungler, the olaf that gets close to you and fights you between your creeps will automatically push the wave by virtue of him drawing more creep aggro than you. As long as the creep numbers aren't terribly imbalanced in his favor, it is fine.
On March 03 2012 03:21 Chill wrote: Got ridiculously crushed against Olaf I felt like I couldn't do anything at level 3. His Reckless Swing does soooooo much damage. Eventually I had to just sit at my tower. =(
I would personally rush a philo against an olaf maxing E. Use Q to last hit creeps then run away. If olaf gets really aggessive trying to zone you then as soon as olaf Es you, you stun him with your E then get a couple of hits on him with w activated.
You probably aren't ever going to win that matchup in the early levels, but the above style should turn it into a free farm until you have enough health to shrug off his nuke.
Just my opinion on how to play the matchup, though I am curious to see how others would approach it.
Interesting. I don't have enough matchup experience to deviate my build like that. I'll give it a try next time vs Olaf, thanks.
Erm I don't see the point of maxing E really. Olaf doesn't have any hard CC so when he hits you with his slow you can just stun him with your lvl 1 E and walk away.Just avoid straight up exchanges against him and don't let him combo you and you will be fine.There's nothing bad with sitting under your turret as Irelia against a lane you don't feel comfortable with and you don't know how to play it or your just behind. Get your tabi asap,and than get a phage from there imo.
Olaf's maxing E, not irelia. But I would avoid picking irelia into Olaf because it's a very, very hard lane to win unless you get so ahead you can commit and kill him any time he's not under tower. If I had to though I'd probably take flash+teleport because the goal is just to survive lane. You'll need to prioritize building flat health over other things though(HoG, phage) to reduce the relative shock damage of his nuke when you do get hit and 100% get a wriggles for this lane.
Olaf's considered a counter in lane to irelia though, so don't feel too bad if you do get beaten by him.
That make no sense. You need to pressure him out of trading with you. I would rather have exhaust than teleport vs Olaf and sheen. He is going to hit you with E 100% you can and need to force him from doing or you are going to lose in CS. At level 3 olaf E if he is levelling it does 160 to you and 64 to himself, if you can hit him with E and 2 hiten style level 2 and deal around 120 damage sure as hell isn't possible to hit again and again. Q is useless pre 6, huge mana sink and you will need that mana this is unless you are getting a gank in your lane or he is wasting all his mana spamming Undertow so you need to last hit under tower.
On March 03 2012 03:21 Chill wrote: Got ridiculously crushed against Olaf I felt like I couldn't do anything at level 3. His Reckless Swing does soooooo much damage. Eventually I had to just sit at my tower. =(
Vs olaf I'd definitely run defensive masteries and also probably start regrowth pendant. Early levels you can't do much more other than farm, however after his E starts dealing a lot of damage you basically want to E him right after he uses it, activate W, and start attacking him and go with that until he runs away, at which point you Q him and then back off. You really should win that trade, and then you can heal up afterwards pretty decently and repeat that as needed. After you get Wriggles or whatever you should be just fine.
Irelia's E animation is quite slow tho, and I know against stuff like Garen's Q they have the time to hit me before the animation actually stuns them, so considering Olaf's range and his almost instant animation he'll probably get his E off if you try to stun him. Need to try to be sure.
On March 03 2012 08:44 Shikyo wrote: Obviously he gets his E off, but you stun him afterwards(it's a stun because you're lower hp) and he can't trade with your true damage.
On that note you can stun ww out of his ult even if he suppresses you 0_o
So I've been toying with the idea of running something along the lines of AD reds (for last hitting at turret), standard yellows and blues and lifesteal quints with a 15/15/0 mastery setup. That way, you have 9% lifesteal at level 1, 21 once you get your Wriggle's. I think you should be able to get sustain that is similar to what it used to be before the nerfs.
Post laning phase, I couldn't care less about the 12 armor I usually get from quints and I think 6% lifesteal would be quite noticeable. I'm not sure wether to try AD reds (just because you'd heal more per hit and you won't be constantly attackting anyways) or stick to AS reds.
Doing some testing now, will report how it went
Tried it against Volibear, not sure how much that says about the viability of the build. From lvl 3 onwards, I could just farm minions while he was literally standing there autoattacking me. Worked pretty well.
you should be able to lasthit every minion at tower with lv1 Q by attacking the ranged minion once after tower hit then Q, and doing the same for melee minions after two tower hits. I think aspd reds are the only choice on Irelia.
Yeah, I've never had a problem last-hitting underneath tower with Irelia. I'm not sure I'm sold on vamp quints either. I prefer Armor/MR versus whatever. Resists = not blowing up = surviving lane = winning game imo.
AD reds help you trade at levels 1-4, where Irelia is weakest. ASPD gives you a huge boost 5+. Therefor I use AD reds. If I can get to level 5 or 6 without giving up too much CS, I have probably won anyways.
On May 03 2012 07:01 zulu_nation8 wrote: you should be able to lasthit every minion at tower with lv1 Q by attacking the ranged minion once after tower hit then Q, and doing the same for melee minions after two tower hits. I think aspd reds are the only choice on Irelia.
you can only do that so many times till you run out of mana, though.
AS reds are higher gold value than AD reds and Irelia's AS scaling is ridiculous while her AD scaling is average at best. Meh, I'm with bly, AS reds make the most sense on her by quite a bit.
I've used both AD and AS reds and find AS to be stronger most of the time. Only real benefit of AD is being able to cs on tower easily but if you have played irrelia a decent amount you can get all of the CS on tower without them
AD can also be nice in really aggressive lanes as AS only really helps you a lot when W is on. still prefer AS though
Strong early game champs like lee, wukong, panth work fine. So do people with weak early game but that take off really fast like warwick, udyr and rumble. Olaf does even better than before, trynd is ok but no one plays him anymore, gp is alright. Just most important thing is not to get ganked early and feed her a kill because she snowballs way too easily.
Udyr smashes her. Hard. Riven can be tricky from what I know (but then again, it's Riven), Yorrick is very annoying — on paper she wins after a few levels, it depends on Yorrick's ability to wear her down before then, and Irelia's to dodge Yorrick's harass and still farm. She can't kill Cho nor Nasus, who get to free farm against her. Kennen never loses lane.
Olaf can bully her early on but she reverses the tendancy. I guess it's a matchup where she can lose if you receive early ganks (Rumble would probably be too).
Cho is bad versus irelia. Irelia is a good against Kennen too . Olaf is tricky. Udyr, Riven, are both good. Honestly though, Irelia is still super solid top lane but she snowballs really badly in both ways. If you die early you're totally screwed against lots of people. Example is that olaf rapes you if you die first to say jungler and you rape him the other way.
Jarvan might be really good if you abuse early game burst.
Udyrs a beast, warwick too but Irelias not that bad against him, but warwick is stronger later on than irelia unless you're super fed.
Udyr just destroys Irelia with constant tiger procs when she comes to cs, shield against true damage and bear to disengage. Also I believe his sustain to be better now that hiten has been nerfed.
Are you positive that she still trashes Rumble? My other tops (Panth, WW, Olaf, Shen, basically) can have trouble against him so I'm considering dusting off Irelia and Renekton if they can trash Rumble, Riven and other asshole top laners.
On May 04 2012 04:29 Slayer91 wrote: Rumble sucks. Screw you guys.
Cho is bad versus irelia. Irelia is a good against Kennen too . Olaf is tricky. Udyr, Riven, are both good. Honestly though, Irelia is still super solid top lane but she snowballs really badly in both ways. If you die early you're totally screwed against lots of people. Example is that olaf rapes you if you die first to say jungler and you rape him the other way.
Jarvan might be really good if you abuse early game burst.
Udyrs a beast, warwick too but Irelias not that bad against him, but warwick is stronger later on than irelia unless you're super fed.
Might just be because I suck, but Jarvan takes a steaming dump on me
i dunno why you guys are saying udyr dumps on her, lol. he cant trade with you at all after 6 and pretty much gets shit on if you just play smart. if udyr ever comes to tiger you, you literally e him and hit him for a million damage
I thought Udyr is supposed to kill Irelia, but I smacked two Udyrs around in a row.
Then again, I'm really bad, so maybe those Udyrs were just not playing well at all (no sarcasm, but those Udyrs definitely didn't play like I would imagine one should against Irelia).
As someone who likes playing lots of Irelia....I can safely say that I don't lose often against a lot of champions. There are champions that I would say that I should lose against, but against the people I've played (like I said, I'm bad, so maybe it's different in high level), a lot of champions that I consider to be counters to Irelia haven't really been killing me.
Honestly, I don't think any champion will just smack her around. Her e, w, auto auto auto auto, out of range, q, auto combo is ridiculously good for trading, and not a lot of champions will have the same amount of burst, especially if you're the one to try to initiate first.
Edit: As for champions I tend to just get uncomfortable with:
Riven: She's just a really strong laner, and if she plays smart, she, on paper at least, should be able to just straight up own you.
Olaf: The true damage burst is pretty scary, and I tend to play a lot more passive when he's chosen.
Warwick: This is pretty balanced as far as actual laning goes, but it's definitely in the advantage of ww. The reason why is because I can kill ww once, or even twice, but he'll still be okay in the lane and can trade pretty well if he plays smart. If he kills me once though there's no way I can do anything to him afterwards.
Jarvan: Perhaps it's just the lack of experience against a laning Jarvan, but trading against him feels less effective against other notable top laners. I haven't seen him a lot though.
Everyone else I either haven't played enough of to be scared of or I've just owned in lane and isn't really a big problem.
On May 04 2012 08:28 Alaric wrote: Udyr just destroys Irelia with constant tiger procs when she comes to cs, shield against true damage and bear to disengage. Also I believe his sustain to be better now that hiten has been nerfed.
Are you positive that she still trashes Rumble? My other tops (Panth, WW, Olaf, Shen, basically) can have trouble against him so I'm considering dusting off Irelia and Renekton if they can trash Rumble, Riven and other asshole top laners.
Scumbag Alaric calls Rumble and Riven asshole top laners (which they are, by the way.) plays WW, Olaf, Shen.
Irelia can still work against Rumble, but so can the obvious Kennen/Vlad, and after that, anyone with a gapcloser and a little bit of burst. Wukong and Nidalee are my champions of choice to go against the kid.
Also, Irelia still trashes Riven in my experience. Lane till Wriggle's, zone the bitch.
Only WW I started recently, the others... well, let's just say one upside of Maokai is that you can both be hipster about him and not have him permabanned.
More seriously, how do early ganks play out for Irelia now? She can't assist them much (esp. level 2 ganks unless you started E) with her lack of damage early on, but since she's more about avoiding to get shat on early than getting a cleaver lead, I guess they'd be very effective against high harass laners?
Really early ganks are normally a bad idea because level 4 double buff jungler ganks are stronger and early ganks push the lane and set up perfectly for it.
On May 04 2012 19:31 Alaric wrote: Only WW I started recently, the others... well, let's just say one upside of Maokai is that you can both be hipster about him and not have him permabanned.
More seriously, how do early ganks play out for Irelia now? She can't assist them much (esp. level 2 ganks unless you started E) with her lack of damage early on, but since she's more about avoiding to get shat on early than getting a cleaver lead, I guess they'd be very effective against high harass laners?
She can't really initiate the gank but assuming you opened Q->W, if the jungler manages to apply red buff, you can usually Q onto them, activate W and get off 2-3 autoattacks easily if they don't flash which should be enough for a kill. After level 3 though, irelia is amazing since you can auto a ranged minion down to low health, retreat a bit and then the moment they come in for a creep, Q the ranged creep then E them to initiate the gank, saving your Q for when they flash if you can secure a kill.
Irelia is on of my tops, but i play here really badly i guess, usually die really fast because i don't get how squishy she is at start. Yesterday i played against her as pantheon and completely trashed her. Now that was probably just because you can't play panth wrong (on my elo) and irelia can definately be played wrong. On the other hand, i saw a game of wicked as irelia vs a panth which went in favor of irelia, i just don't know how he does it. Panth should just stand in his creeps and throw spears at her any time she tries to get hear the melee-minions, right? Like a man! Now she has three choices. One, back off to turret and wait till Panth pushes the lane to turret, two try to last hit as if nothing happened, three, trade with him. Two equals more free spears meaning free kill at some point, she can drink as many potions as she wants, you can't outdrink the spears. Three should equal lost trade in my opinion, with shield up and a dorans, i don't see me losing any trade at level 1 she could do to me while i am standing in my creeps. Am i wrong? Both options are no options, so is the only path against the man to stand in my bush waiting till level 3 or 4 not getting any gold before i can even think about getting in range, because the second i try to cs i am getting more behind?
Get whatever cs you can, let him push, don't die, and call your jungler. Also, full defensive setup (I'd take 19-11 for the armor+hp+reduced damage, with armor yellows+quints). It's not like Pantheon was one of the strongest champs in the game at the levels in which Irelia is weak.
Wriggles-Tabi + a gank or two to prevent Panth from zoning you, or even better kill him is a free won lane for you.
On May 08 2012 17:45 Broetchenholer wrote: Irelia is on of my tops, but i play here really badly i guess, usually die really fast because i don't get how squishy she is at start. Yesterday i played against her as pantheon and completely trashed her. Now that was probably just because you can't play panth wrong (on my elo) and irelia can definately be played wrong. On the other hand, i saw a game of wicked as irelia vs a panth which went in favor of irelia, i just don't know how he does it. Panth should just stand in his creeps and throw spears at her any time she tries to get hear the melee-minions, right? Like a man! Now she has three choices. One, back off to turret and wait till Panth pushes the lane to turret, two try to last hit as if nothing happened, three, trade with him. Two equals more free spears meaning free kill at some point, she can drink as many potions as she wants, you can't outdrink the spears. Three should equal lost trade in my opinion, with shield up and a dorans, i don't see me losing any trade at level 1 she could do to me while i am standing in my creeps. Am i wrong? Both options are no options, so is the only path against the man to stand in my bush waiting till level 3 or 4 not getting any gold before i can even think about getting in range, because the second i try to cs i am getting more behind?
Any champ with only 1 type of damage usually get completely trashed by irelia(I do lose to rumble tho) unless they get jungle support.
The key is you have to know when you are stronger. Against pantheon, I play extremely defenisively. Let him push to my tower and I last hit there until lvl 6 or 7. I go back and buy(usually finish tabi+another cloth+wards/pots). Now with your ult and your pure damage you completely trash pantheon. By lvl 9, you can either go wriggles which means you are slightly weaker late game(it delays your mallet/wit's end by quite a bit). I usually just get a chainvest and then zone pantheon completely.
An easy way to lose is getting camped vs pantheon. I think the only time I lost to pantheon was getting camped by an uydr jungle which killed me about 3 times and I was 3 lvls behind and the pantheon was running exhaust+ignite.
So this guide is really outdated and apparently I can't edit the OP because it was created too long ago.
Skill order:
Always max W. Leveling Q > E gives more utility due to the CD reduction but at the cost of less damage. E > Q is more damage plus longer stun. I like to max Q 2nd vs ranged champions and max E 2nd vs melee. It's personal preference.
Runes:
You can take AD reds for easier last hitting and slightly better trading early game. It helps a lot if you expect to get pushed in. AS reds are better for later when your W is maxed and with 9 offensive mastery you should be able to lasthit comfortably anyway. Armor yellows, MR blues, not much flexibility there. For quints, MSPD, Armor, MR, AD, HP regen, Lifesteal, are all viable options.
Masteries:
9/12/9 or 9/14/7 for maximum flexibility. There's really no lane you absolutely need 21 defense for especially if you have armor quints, but the CDR is nice. Versus AP tops you can consider running MP5 yellows and going 9/21/0.
What do you think of forgoing MR blues in favor of armor blues, and then using all health regen yellows? That's what I've been doing against non-AP tops. I compensate for the lack of MR with mercs and either hexdrinker or wit's.
The amount of health regen you get with philo, defense mastery, and all hregen yellows is pretty ridiculous. I've even been beating olaf and udyr using this setup lately
never get hexdrinker, if you're vs a non AP top you shouldnt be getting any MR items until after lane phase. Armor blues don't make any sense. I don't see why you need so much regen, you have a lot of sustain through hitting creeps. It's true that at lower elo, lanes tend to trade more often and in worse ways, which is even more reason to get armor. But vs Olaf I don't think there's ever a period when he straight up outdamages you unlike say Jax. Regen makes sense only if for some reason you can't sustain off of creeps or you have to take way too much free damage, so for example vs good Kennens or Nids. Otherwise I can't think of a time when you should trade resist for sustain. I also wouldn't go philo vs a hard lane.
On July 27 2012 05:23 zulu_nation8 wrote: never get hexdrinker, if you're vs a non AP top you shouldnt be getting any MR items until after lane phase. Armor blues don't make any sense. I don't see why you need so much regen, you have a lot of sustain through hitting creeps. It's true that at lower elo, lanes tend to trade more often and in worse ways, which is even more reason to get armor. But vs Olaf I don't think there's ever a period when he straight up outdamages you unlike say Jax. Regen makes sense only if for some reason you can't sustain off of creeps or you have to take way too much free damage, so for example vs good Kennens or Nids. Otherwise I can't think of a time when you should trade resist for sustain. I also wouldn't go philo vs a hard lane.
Great advice, thanks. Can you elaborate a little bit on hexdrinker? it seems like great cost efficiency for what it does. I always prefer to buy wit's because Irelia likes AS more than AD, but if I can't afford it (2700 is kinda dumb), then hex seems like the next best thing.
On July 27 2012 05:23 zulu_nation8 wrote: never get hexdrinker, if you're vs a non AP top you shouldnt be getting any MR items until after lane phase. Armor blues don't make any sense. I don't see why you need so much regen, you have a lot of sustain through hitting creeps. It's true that at lower elo, lanes tend to trade more often and in worse ways, which is even more reason to get armor. But vs Olaf I don't think there's ever a period when he straight up outdamages you unlike say Jax. Regen makes sense only if for some reason you can't sustain off of creeps or you have to take way too much free damage, so for example vs good Kennens or Nids. Otherwise I can't think of a time when you should trade resist for sustain. I also wouldn't go philo vs a hard lane.
Great advice, thanks. Can you elaborate a little bit on hexdrinker? it seems like great cost efficiency for what it does. I always prefer to buy wit's because Irelia likes AS more than AD, but if I can't afford it (2700 is kinda dumb), then hex seems like the next best thing.
Also, wit's end isn't 2700. It's 2150. The cost nerf only bumped it up 150 gold on combine.
That said, I tend to prefer ionic spark now over wit's. I understand that Ionic's HP isn't always as good as wit's resist, but in a game where you don't need MR as much, I think it'd be a good pickup.
I don't like AS reds for laning unless you're against a champion where you will have a prolonged trade with. In other words, not against Vlad, not against Jax, etc. etc.
You make W first always, but I've been maxing E second. The utility on that skill is crazy and let's you control lane from level 1. Q is really rarely a good option I would say as compared to how good the stun on E is, not to mention your Q is going to do lots of damage regardless of when you max it as long as you get AD.
Irelia is great for level 2 ganks btw. Grab E first.
I always go 21/9/0. Always balls deep. I have never met a person that I've played against (when I rank 1300/1400s and then when I play with scumbags 1600/1700) that just outright destroy me in trades.
I've never had trouble with Darius, but that's probably something along the lines of all the Darius's I've played being ridiculously bad. I can probably say that the Jax match up got easier after playing around with it, but Malph, Udyr, and Yorick are just dumb.
And to explain how to face Jax, never turn on W until his counter strike is down. If he wants to trade with you, your normal attacks still do pretty significant damage at early levels and Jax will probably still counter strike to get that stun off.
When that happens, q to a low health creep and kill it, then jump back and turn on w.
Irelia has no use from higher levels of the offense tree. AS is for team fight as well, a trade is a trade, you E, auto a few times and Q, nothing about Vlad or Jax says you won't be able to get 3-4 true damage autos off.
21 offense is fine. Extra damage, arpen, and the 21st point in the tree is fine for getting that extra damage when an opponent is low. It's not like the buffs in the defensive tree are all that great on her either, and getting anything in utility is just saying that you can't manage mana. CDR is honestly not that important on Irelia besides the cooldown on Q. W is almost always back before you need to trade again and E cooldown is fine since you rarely use it until you trade.
AS is fine, but I'm saying it's champion specific and I don't like it because I don't care about getting extra true damage autos off if I'm raping the guy with extra AD anyway, especially if it's a champ that can disengage and just run faster than I do, since I don't run movement quints. The true damage is great, but the actual extra damage you get on certain champions is negligible depending on who they are.
Vlad can disengage really easily, nor is he going to be willing to go into a long trade with you so he'll just back away anyway or just pool if he think he's in trouble. Jax you need to just do damage to him and the rarity of getting a lot of W's off on him if he's a smart player is unlikely, especially if you can't bait counterstrike well.
What exactly would 21 in offense do for Irelia over going deeper into the defense tree? It just doesn't really make much sense. Your trading power in almost every lane matchup is largely dependent on your W level + AS, not your AD and Arpen. For most melee champions going deeper than 9/14 in offense doesn't help as much as going deeper into the defense tree because -2 minion damage and indomitable do so much for you in trading within lane.
I honestly think that's overrated. I have yet to see Wickd run AS runes consistently on Irelia. I think there's good reason for that. It's because maximizing true damage potential with AS reds doesn't make up for the fact that good players will just GTFO whenever you turn on your W after the stun.
CDR is great on Irelia. Executioner is obviously good but there's no point wasting 10 points in masteries you don't need just to get it. Lifesteal/AD/Apen on Irelia are all next to useless. An extra true damage auto from AS runes is huge in trades. Vlad cannot disengage very easily, if you E him and start autoattacking, he can pool immediately and have it on a 20 sec CD after which you can just Q to him and do more damage, or he can pool after you Q before which he already ate a full combo from you. Jax's counterstrike also has like a 20 second CD. Just by stunning someone with E you're guaranteed at least two autos. Mana regen is great on Irelia, if you are trading correctly you will need the regen in lane eventually.
On July 27 2012 22:56 Zergneedsfood wrote: I honestly think that's overrated. I have yet to see Wickd run AS runes consistently on Irelia. I think there's good reason for that. It's because maximizing true damage potential with AS reds doesn't make up for the fact that good players will just GTFO whenever you turn on your W after the stun.
You have a phage and a 2 second stun, please tell me how you are trading that you have trouble getting autos off vs anyone. Wickd has his preferences, doesn't mean you should blindly follow it. This is LgN Cruzer's Irelia page vs AD damage bruisers: AS/Armor/AS/AD.
CDR is overrated. I've rarely had a problem where I've said "Man, if only that thing came up half a second earlier", becauase that just meant I underestimated damage. AD, Apen is fine on Irelia, and extra lifesteal is always nice, especially when you have early dorans and W turned on. Extra true damage is overrated depending on your level of w and the reduced AD you get from lack of Apen/AD and AD runes. I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm saying someone do the numbers and see significant it actually is, because I've tested both and I don't feel good with AS reds. Ever.
A vlad doesn't just pool. He runs fast, is not going to cs at close quarters, and trying to gib ranged minions just to get to him forces you to lose CS and waste Qs needlessly and mana.
On the Jax's counterstrike. Yes, you get two autos, but that's regardless of AS. And you're not going to be trading with Jax while your W is off because he does a lot of damage, and even if it comes up, there are specific problems in the lane itself that keeps Jax safe like creeps.
Mana regen isn't necessary. Just control your mana and know when to trade.
On July 27 2012 22:56 Zergneedsfood wrote: I honestly think that's overrated. I have yet to see Wickd run AS runes consistently on Irelia. I think there's good reason for that. It's because maximizing true damage potential with AS reds doesn't make up for the fact that good players will just GTFO whenever you turn on your W after the stun.
You have a phage and a 2 second stun, please tell me how you are trading that you have trouble getting autos off vs anyone.
Are we still talking about early laning, because what I'm referring to is the first few levels where you haven't even gone back to buy stuff yet.
By the time I get a phage, the lane has mostly been decided by then anyway, unless I opt for phage first on my first buy, which I usually never do anyway.
And again, how much are you actually getting from one more true damage auto, because it seems to me that people are just thinking that as long as you hit as many Ws as possible, victory is guaranteed, but when you factor in the reduced AD, I'm not seeing the biggest payoff.
Again, I've rarely seen Wickd ever go with AS reds in any lane matchup. Since he's the only reason why I play the chick, I'm going to just keep copying whatever runes he uses. I think they make more sense than just getting AS reds built exclusively for my W.
On July 27 2012 22:56 Zergneedsfood wrote: I honestly think that's overrated. I have yet to see Wickd run AS runes consistently on Irelia. I think there's good reason for that. It's because maximizing true damage potential with AS reds doesn't make up for the fact that good players will just GTFO whenever you turn on your W after the stun.
Yet Wickd never runes more than 9 into offense on Irelia, for a reason. I've seen him do 1/22/7 and the like. He always puts the most points into the defense tree and he never goes heavy into offense. If you're going to use Wickd as the Irelia authority then you're still wrong.
AD marks are stronger in the earlier levels as it makes last hitting easier and you do more damage in trades since low lvl W sucks dick for trades since it's damage, health regen, and your lack of items make it very lacklustre. But once you hit like lvl 7 the AS marks are way stronger.
lol why do you ever need apen if you're only trading with W? How does a vlad magically run fast when he has lower base mspd and you have a gap closer, a stun, and a page? How is extra true damage ever overrated? When you trade with Jax, let's say you eat the full counterstrike, get stunned, then afterward you stun him, attack, he leaps to creep, you dash to him. How do people magically run away from you when again, you have a dash, stun and phage? Mana regen is necessary, I don't know what game you're playing.
Yet Wickd never runes more than 9 into offense on Irelia, for a reason. I've seen him do 1/22/7 and the like. He always puts the most points into the defense tree and he never goes heavy into offense. If you're going to use Wickd as the Irelia authority then you're still wrong.
The runes and masteries are different topics, so I don't think I'm wrong because Wickd tends to play more defensive. Wickd goes crazy masteries by stocking up on points I rarely ever catch because I'm looking away, but that doesn't discount the fact that the guy doesn't go AS, and I think there's a good reason for it.
But once you hit like lvl 7 the AS marks are way stronger.
Maybe, but regardless of what timing AS marks are stronger lanes are usually decided in the early levels, and I'd like to decide my lane by my level 6 engage anyway, so I'd much prefer the marks.
Besides, since I get Tri-force and wits end in every game anyway, runes specced towards AS don't really matter much to me.
Irelia is weakest pre maxing out W and strongest after, which is lv9. How do you decide lane with lv6 engage when you're still weaker than most bruisers? This argument is really dumb, please show us a replay where someone magically runs away from you every time you try to trade.
lol why do you ever need apen if you're only trading with W
But you're not. W does extra true damage, but you're still hitting the dude with your basic attacks. The APen is nice because if you have AD marks you're going to do more damage. Simple as that.
How does a vlad magically run fast when he has lower base mspd and you have a gap closer, a stun, and a page?
Just read what I wrote. Vlad isn't going to be in close quarters with you anyway, so trying to find good engages on a vlad is difficult if the vlad knows what he's doing and stays close to ranged minions. Even if you gib a ranged minion, Vlad can easily run back and if you engage, you're losing creeps. I just don't think that's smart laning, even if you out trade him.
How is extra true damage ever overrated?
Again, read the post. I said it's overrated because people make such a big deal about AS reds when I don't see certain people that I follow Irelia on using those reds.
When you trade with Jax, let's say you eat the full counterstrike, get stunned, then afterward you stun him, attack, he leaps to creep, you dash to him
A Jax is never going to engage you first unless you're getting ganked. The counterstrike is used specifically because Jax wants to negate the W damage.
Mana regen is necessary, I don't know what game you're playing.
It's not as long as you control your mana properly. Do I have mana problems? Definitely, but that's because I'm bad, not because the mana regen isn't enough to sustain me in lane.
Da fuk dude.
The two discussions were based on two different things. Even if we were talking about the two working together, I don't think grabbing AS reds and 21 in defense is a good idea either because it's like trying to maximize your offensive capabilities while sitting back and being panzy.
Irelia is weakest pre maxing out W and strongest after, which is lv9. How do you decide lane with lv6 engage when you're still weaker than most bruisers?
What...have you tried trading with a champion at level 6?
It's fine. People underestimate how good Irelia is regardless of W.
This argument is really dumb, please show us a replay where someone magically runs away from you every time you try to trade.
You keep saying magically run away, but that's not the argument. I'm saying they can disengage really easily. If your argument is that you get AS runes because you want one extra W hit, that's fine. I don't really mind it. But I'm saying there certain champions where their skills and lane dynamics make it difficult to get a lot of Ws off anyway, so it doesn't matter.
There's a thing in league called efficiency which means maximizing your strengths with the least resources. That's why no bruisers who unless are built for APen like J4 or Wukong spec 21 offense because it's simply a waste. You're never getting AD or APen items, attack damage is probably less than 1/2 of your auto attack damage with W turned on vs enemies who have armor. Why on earth do you need 6 flat apen? If you don't understand this you need to take a moment and think about how the game works.
Vlad is an easy matchup for Irelia.
Jax will definitely engage on you because he's stronger.
You don't sound very experienced with Irelia, just trust what I say...
There's a thing in league called efficiency which means maximizing your strengths with the least resources. That's why no bruisers who unless are built for APen like J4 or Wukong spec 21 offense because it's simply a waste. You're never getting AD or APen items, attack damage is probably less than 1/2 of your auto attack damage with W turned on vs enemies who have armor. Why on earth do you need 6 flat apen? If you don't understand this you need to take a moment and think about how the game works.
When you put it this way, it just sounds like a bunch of speculative reasoning to me. I'm going to just say this: since AS reds are probably good for later in the laning phase, because w isn't that great early. I like to decide my lanes pre-6, and I do that just fine with Irelia.
Vlad is an easy matchup for Irelia.
I agree, but it doesn't involve attacking him when he's all the way in the back. A Vlad knows that his only advantage is poking Irelia until Revolver where he can just heal himself back indefinitely, so engaging him isn't smart depending on how the lane goes. I just don't think it's a good habit of just saying "well, go attack" when your opponents creeps are going to be behind you.
Jax will definitely engage on you because he's stronger.
So when he's stronger....you try to trade with him? o_O I'm not getting the logic here.
And for the record, I don't think Jax is stronger than Irelia. I think he's manageable, nor will he open up his attacks with counterstrike unless he thinks he can really outdamage you regardless of the trade.
In which case, unless you're good at estimating damage, you should be getting out anyway.
You don't sound very experienced with Irelia, just trust what I say...
I'm not trying to be confrontational here....but if you're going to say I'm not that experienced with her, I don't really care, because as I kill people in lane all the time with her, I'm not that high ELO. In fact, I'm quite low and all my reasoning comes from playing people that are honestly really bad (relative to higher ELO). But how experienced are you? Why should I be trusting what you say, when there are other examples I can pool from?
Well I tried to reason with you purely theoretically but it seems because we play at different elos, our experiences are too different to be compared. You should trust me because I play Irelia and vs her a lot at a reasonable elo where people are generally solid enough at laning to be able to draw correct conclusions from. I also pay close attention to how better players spec and play her. I've also played her since she first came out, she was my most played season 1.
I go for utility too, usually 9-14-7. I also think that as reds are better for irelia but since as reds aren't for everyone, armorpen are also acceptable. I always max E first though and if i'm not forced to get wriggles, I usually rush phage. Sometimes I get dblades + bruta vs people that won't get armor.
I really don't think there's anything for irelia past 9 offense, maybe if you ran her mid.
aspd reds have their niche, just as AD reds do. i know wickd often plays a very defensive early irelia where he will often simply q lasthit and only begin exchanges when the enemy blows cds or he begins to have some good items, but in matchups where sustained trades occur more often or where your earlygame will not be a big problem, they do scale better than flat AD reds in terms of damage with ur w and allow for more sustain as well. to say that anything is "worse" because people dont play it is quite often wrong. i know wickd used to run aspd reds a while back.
i read lots of guides for Irelia at TSM's site and lots of them have different runes for her like attk speed,flat dmg,armor pen for the reds.Which 1 is more efficient for Irelia? And any guide to lane as her such as trade blows.
On August 11 2012 20:58 justiceknight wrote: i read lots of guides for Irelia at TSM's site and lots of them have different runes for her like attk speed,flat dmg,armor pen for the reds.Which 1 is more efficient for Irelia? And any guide to lane as her such as trade blows.
It really depends. Some prefer the aggressive approach and fully rune AD, which I find to be highly irritating. I picked up my philosophy of Irelia from Smash, who basically runs AS reds and then resistance quints depending on the MU IIRC. Since I stopped trusting my jungler in soloQ and feel like teamfightwise, I can outscale basically any top lane if I get enough farm in, I just itemize to farm as safely as possible (usually that means Tabi->Wriggle's or 2NMM+Vamp->Wit's) and go from there. These runes complement this philosophy perfectly. Works really well for me.
It really depends on what you mean by efficient. AS marks are far better than AD marks from lvl 7 and on but they really aren't great before that. AD marks are better for the really early level trades such as the lvl 1 E-AA then walk back thing, and AD marks allow you to last hit under the tower without having to use Q or W (with AS marks you are forced to spend mana if you are forced under the tower if you don't have additional damage from items - edit note: but if you take AD quints this isn't an issue I believe). Wickd always takes AD marks on Irelia. Arpen is silly though.
Wickd's guide on the clg site is kinda shitty because he doesn't really tell you much that you wouldn't already know from just watching him play/playing Irelia. Nothing really in-depth but I guess it's worth a look. In there he says to go 9/14/7, but he sometimes goes 1/22/7 depending on picks. It's also kinda confusing because in the charts he doesn't put a point in veteran scars, but in the text he talks about putting a point into it so idk what's up with that. No reason not to take veteran's scar, really.
What, because it's been a while since the last irelia nerf?
I've been running AS reds but I really like the logic behind AD - it helps you play passive, which often results in farming under turret. Irelia's decent at doing such, but you reduce the number of CS lost (some due to your own last hitting skill, some due to being perfectly last hit by your turret) with that extra AD. Meanwhile it's not exactly lost
I don't like Armor Pen on irelia. It doesn't make sense to me why you'd want Armor Pen when it doesn't help you last hit, and doesn't help you in trades or as the game progresses as much as AS does.
I run MS quints when there isn't a logical resistance quint to make the lane better (Kayle, for example). HP5 quints might be better here, though.
If you have triforce, GA, don't blow your ultimate completely before you die. Use 3/4 blades before you die and when you revive, you'll have 4 more blades to shoot giving you a total of 7, making GA one of the most imba items in the game for irelia, granting you 75% more damage on ulti every 5 minutes.
@Lmui WHAT?!? is this really true? Can anyone else confirm what he is saying? I've never heard of only using 3 and then having all the blades back after rezzing. Does this also work with a zil ulti?
There's 3 runepages I typically use on Irelia (among other top laners - though some will use "all flat AD" instead of the AS/MS one.)
AD Mark Armor Seal MR/level Glyph Armor Quint
AD Mark Armor Seal MR Flat Glyph MR Quint
AS Mark Armor Seal MR Flat Glyph MS Quint
The first two I'm expecting to play passively vs. a difficult lane, so I want the AD to last hit better - particularly last-hitting under my tower. The last one I'm expecting to have opportunities to make winning trades, so I want to make sure my runes are set up to get an extra auto or two off while my W is up (MS for sticking power + attack speed)
I'd never run armor pen. Either flat AD if I want to hit minions better (passive play including a large amount of lasthitting under/near tower) and AS if I want to hit champions better (less passive play.)
I expect the GA-Transcendent blade bug will be fixed pretty soon now that its known exactly what causes it.
On August 24 2012 06:48 Berailfor wrote: @Lmui WHAT?!? is this really true? Can anyone else confirm what he is saying? I've never heard of only using 3 and then having all the blades back after rezzing. Does this also work with a zil ulti?
Mundo healing while dead makes some sense. I mean has his life go into a sort of stasis. It's not like he's getting more out of his ult. But Irelia gaining stacks of her ulti doesn't make much sense. I see this being removed next patch. Riot's really good about that.
On August 24 2012 06:54 zulu_nation8 wrote: i think you should spec as offensively as possible with Irelia since there are very champions who can harass you without you being able to trade back.
Could you please go into more detail on what you mean by this? What would "as offensively as possible" mean for Irelia in your opinion?
Irelia is my most played but i don't have a good win rate on her and i'm always looking for ways to improve on her.
Edit: in hindsight since you wrote the guide, I should probably just read it again . Disregard.
I can't even beat Jayce as Irelia, I've been picking her everytime I get top recently because I want to improve (or rather undo the crust of rust I've gathered on a lot of champs) and almost all of those games Jayce was top (picked before or after me), and I'd get fucking annoyed because I can't engage him if he doesn't stay near an almost dead minion (he's ranged so it's easy for him) as he'll simply laugh and kite backwards while harassing. And he'll only engage me in hammer form with Q, the slow making it really hard to reposition before he Es me away (or else I'd move near a wall or between his tower and him).
I end up pushed and harassed every game as there's no way you fight him early (where ranged > melee), nor at level 3-4 where he hits a window, and after that he just uses E to win trades as I can't be building boots+armor+MR all at the same time, and he can abuse his way shorter CDs and stupidly low mana costs (Hiten 15s, then choose between 14s Q cd or only 1s E stun/slow). So he harasses me at tower and build up a lead such that I generally have to back before 6 unless a gank happens, then lose even more creeps since I'm pushed when I have to back, and he rides on that and his stupidly versatile as hell kit.
I don't even know how to spec against him, I tried 19-11, a 9-13-8 variation for more MR, armor and MS since 19-11 never catches up to him and I can never prevent him from dictating trades. I've tried AS reds, flat armor yellows, and then either flat MR blues/quints, MR/level blues/MS quints, MR/levels blues/armor quints. I generally start cloth+5 because he's ranged and I'll never catch him early on anyway (nor do I want to go on the offensive from the start as Irelia), tried boots->phage->wit's (ie NMM), tabi->phage->triforce, tabi->phage->MR, and though it often has to do with him getting a lead early, none of those builds seemed to give me early armor against his harass, damage/sticking power (I feel like I need the phage even though I don't remember a single situation where I got a proc that allowed me to stick to him more than one auto, bullshit MS buffs everywhere), and MR in time for his level 4-5 hammer E.
I know my mechanics are bad and the "when he attacks you, position so that he can't E you and run to his tower/E you away enough that you can't Q to him" is only a part of the solution, but people have been telling me that Irelia should beat Jayce (without telling me how, so smug) and I just can't manage to do it.
Don't start cloth 5. I would prefer boots if only because it'll help you dodge his massive ranged cannon kaboom thing.
Try adding maybe a few dorans (one or two depending on how confident you feel) + tabis instead of straight rushing phage.
The knockback that Jayce uses is kind of why you need to save your Q. I'd imagine a way you can do that is Q'ing to a minion to position yourself close to Jayce. E, W, auto, auto, auto, and after he smacks you away, you can reengage with Q if you feel you have good enough damage.
Iono. I still have yet to transition to the AS Irelia because I just go AD reds/quints + armor/mr red/blues so I do a considerable amount of damage in the early levels especially with a few dorans.
The thing is, you need an almost dead minion to Q to so you get the cd reset. Smart Jayce players won't allow you that by using his range to position so they can last hit without exposing themselves. He would be much easier to engage otherwise (as is, and per personal experience, I can't fight him unless he wants to or engages me).
I'll try running AD runes rather than AS/other next time. Since he disengages or put distance so easily, it's not like the additional AS will be very useful unless I get wit's or become godly at microing or something.
1 - Jax. Press E when she presses W. It's almost too good to be true. You can outtrade her early, and you scale at least equally hard.
2 - AS slows, but Malphite (most suited AS slow for top lane) is pretty much permaban status, which lends a lot to Irelia's current popularity.
3 - Laners who trade HARD early on, with low mana costs, can give her a lot of grief - ex. Darius, Riven,or Olaf - can be played to good effect against Irelia, forcing her to lose CS in fear - but if she gets ahead of you due to ganks or misplays, she can start outtrading you and you've lost your only weapon against her. You also need to consistently trade to keep her from Hiten-sustaining back the damage. If you force her to get significant lifesteal, you're doing well - lifesteal items are not a typical preferred core for Irelia.
On August 24 2012 06:54 zulu_nation8 wrote: i think you should spec as offensively as possible with Irelia since there are very champions who can harass you without you being able to trade back.
Could you please go into more detail on what you mean by this? What would "as offensively as possible" mean for Irelia in your opinion?
Irelia is my most played but i don't have a good win rate on her and i'm always looking for ways to improve on her.
Edit: in hindsight since you wrote the guide, I should probably just read it again . Disregard.
Usually you get extra defense when the enemy champion can harass you without you being able to hit him back, for Irelia there is really no champion who can do that. For example, you are thinking of going armor quints vs Olaf, but there is no need, if he true damages you, you can harass him back with E + W + Q combo. In fact you out damage him at all phases of laning. In cases like these you should be rune-ing for damage and late game, which means getting AS or AD quints. You don't need extra defense to lane vs anyone, but you hit really hard if you go offense.
On September 08 2012 06:33 Alaric wrote: I can't even beat Irelia as Jayce, I've been picking her everytime I get top recently because I want to improve (or rather undo the crust of rust I've gathered on a lot of champs) and almost all of those games Jayce was top (picked before or after me), and I'd get fucking annoyed because I can't engage him if he doesn't stay near an almost dead minion (he's ranged so it's easy for him) as he'll simply laugh and kite backwards while harassing. And he'll only engage me in hammer form with Q, the slow making it really hard to reposition before he Es me away (or else I'd move near a wall or between his tower and him).
I end up pushed and harassed every game as there's no way you fight him early (where ranged > melee), nor at level 3-4 where he hits a window, and after that he just uses E to win trades as I can't be building boots+armor+MR all at the same time, and he can abuse his way shorter CDs and stupidly low mana costs (Hiten 15s, then choose between 14s Q cd or only 1s E stun/slow). So he harasses me at tower and build up a lead such that I generally have to back before 6 unless a gank happens, then lose even more creeps since I'm pushed when I have to back, and he rides on that and his stupidly versatile as hell kit.
I don't even know how to spec against him, I tried 19-11, a 9-13-8 variation for more MR, armor and MS since 19-11 never catches up to him and I can never prevent him from dictating trades. I've tried AS reds, flat armor yellows, and then either flat MR blues/quints, MR/level blues/MS quints, MR/levels blues/armor quints. I generally start cloth+5 because he's ranged and I'll never catch him early on anyway (nor do I want to go on the offensive from the start as Irelia), tried boots->phage->wit's (ie NMM), tabi->phage->triforce, tabi->phage->MR, and though it often has to do with him getting a lead early, none of those builds seemed to give me early armor against his harass, damage/sticking power (I feel like I need the phage even though I don't remember a single situation where I got a proc that allowed me to stick to him more than one auto, bullshit MS buffs everywhere), and MR in time for his level 4-5 hammer E.
I know my mechanics are bad and the "when he attacks you, position so that he can't E you and run to his tower/E you away enough that you can't Q to him" is only a part of the solution, but people have been telling me that Irelia should beat Jayce (without telling me how, so smug) and I just can't manage to do it.
On September 08 2012 08:47 sylverfyre wrote: 1 - Jax. Press E when she presses W. It's almost too good to be true. You can outtrade her early, and you scale at least equally hard.
2 - AS slows, but Malphite (most suited AS slow for top lane) is pretty much permaban status, which lends a lot to Irelia's current popularity.
3 - Laners who trade HARD early on, with low mana costs, can give her a lot of grief - ex. Darius, Riven,or Olaf - can be played to good effect against Irelia, forcing her to lose CS in fear - but if she gets ahead of you due to ganks or misplays, she can start outtrading you and you've lost your only weapon against her. You also need to consistently trade to keep her from Hiten-sustaining back the damage. If you force her to get significant lifesteal, you're doing well - lifesteal items are not a typical preferred core for Irelia.
Olaf and Riven get destroyed by Irelia, otherwise that's pretty much right. Jayce is good, I think volibear is good. Nasus is a hard counter.
On September 08 2012 08:47 sylverfyre wrote: 1 - Jax. Press E when she presses W. It's almost too good to be true. You can outtrade her early, and you scale at least equally hard.
2 - AS slows, but Malphite (most suited AS slow for top lane) is pretty much permaban status, which lends a lot to Irelia's current popularity.
3 - Laners who trade HARD early on, with low mana costs, can give her a lot of grief - ex. Darius, Riven,or Olaf - can be played to good effect against Irelia, forcing her to lose CS in fear - but if she gets ahead of you due to ganks or misplays, she can start outtrading you and you've lost your only weapon against her. You also need to consistently trade to keep her from Hiten-sustaining back the damage. If you force her to get significant lifesteal, you're doing well - lifesteal items are not a typical preferred core for Irelia.
Olaf and Riven get destroyed by Irelia, otherwise that's pretty much right. Jayce is good, I think volibear is good. Nasus is a hard counter.
Nasus is just inviting the jungle to camp you though.
On September 08 2012 06:33 Alaric wrote: I can't even beat Irelia as Jayce, I've been picking her everytime I get top recently because I want to improve (or rather undo the crust of rust I've gathered on a lot of champs) and almost all of those games Jayce was top (picked before or after me), and I'd get fucking annoyed because I can't engage him if he doesn't stay near an almost dead minion (he's ranged so it's easy for him) as he'll simply laugh and kite backwards while harassing. And he'll only engage me in hammer form with Q, the slow making it really hard to reposition before he Es me away (or else I'd move near a wall or between his tower and him).
I end up pushed and harassed every game as there's no way you fight him early (where ranged > melee), nor at level 3-4 where he hits a window, and after that he just uses E to win trades as I can't be building boots+armor+MR all at the same time, and he can abuse his way shorter CDs and stupidly low mana costs (Hiten 15s, then choose between 14s Q cd or only 1s E stun/slow). So he harasses me at tower and build up a lead such that I generally have to back before 6 unless a gank happens, then lose even more creeps since I'm pushed when I have to back, and he rides on that and his stupidly versatile as hell kit.
I don't even know how to spec against him, I tried 19-11, a 9-13-8 variation for more MR, armor and MS since 19-11 never catches up to him and I can never prevent him from dictating trades. I've tried AS reds, flat armor yellows, and then either flat MR blues/quints, MR/level blues/MS quints, MR/levels blues/armor quints. I generally start cloth+5 because he's ranged and I'll never catch him early on anyway (nor do I want to go on the offensive from the start as Irelia), tried boots->phage->wit's (ie NMM), tabi->phage->triforce, tabi->phage->MR, and though it often has to do with him getting a lead early, none of those builds seemed to give me early armor against his harass, damage/sticking power (I feel like I need the phage even though I don't remember a single situation where I got a proc that allowed me to stick to him more than one auto, bullshit MS buffs everywhere), and MR in time for his level 4-5 hammer E.
I know my mechanics are bad and the "when he attacks you, position so that he can't E you and run to his tower/E you away enough that you can't Q to him" is only a part of the solution, but people have been telling me that Irelia should beat Jayce (without telling me how, so smug) and I just can't manage to do it.
I am pretty sure Irelia counters Jayce.
Welp. That should have been "Can't beat Jayce as Irelia", way to post a wall of text and mislead people within the first 10 words. x_x
Also @above I believe Riven and Olaf snowball hard enough to beat Irelia if they manage to get a lead (particularly in levels for Olaf) early on. Basically Olaf wins if he just hits and runs with E, and Irelia wins if she responds with her own E and auto-attacks (you basically outdamage his E if you E back + one aa, and your W beats his, so... ). Since there are people not playing the match-up right on both sides, up to a certain Elo (which is seemingly higher than mine) you can win as Irelia or as Olaf quite easily.
On September 08 2012 08:47 sylverfyre wrote: 1 - Jax. Press E when she presses W. It's almost too good to be true. You can outtrade her early, and you scale at least equally hard.
2 - AS slows, but Malphite (most suited AS slow for top lane) is pretty much permaban status, which lends a lot to Irelia's current popularity.
3 - Laners who trade HARD early on, with low mana costs, can give her a lot of grief - ex. Darius, Riven,or Olaf - can be played to good effect against Irelia, forcing her to lose CS in fear - but if she gets ahead of you due to ganks or misplays, she can start outtrading you and you've lost your only weapon against her. You also need to consistently trade to keep her from Hiten-sustaining back the damage. If you force her to get significant lifesteal, you're doing well - lifesteal items are not a typical preferred core for Irelia.
Olaf and Riven get destroyed by Irelia, otherwise that's pretty much right. Jayce is good, I think volibear is good. Nasus is a hard counter.
Nasus is just inviting the jungle to camp you though.
Hes a worse champion but a hard counter in lane. I've never seen an Olaf win vs Irelia at any elo, I've seen Rivens win with earl snowball but most of the time they get destroyed. I've played the matchup a lot and it's really difficult for Riven. Irelia does not counter Jayce in any way whatsoever.
On September 08 2012 07:19 Alaric wrote: The thing is, you need an almost dead minion to Q to so you get the cd reset. Smart Jayce players won't allow you that by using his range to position so they can last hit without exposing themselves. He would be much easier to engage otherwise (as is, and per personal experience, I can't fight him unless he wants to or engages me).
I'll try running AD runes rather than AS/other next time. Since he disengages or put distance so easily, it's not like the additional AS will be very useful unless I get wit's or become godly at microing or something.
I mean, then don't engage him? Just dodge all his skillshots and unless he approaches you to engage don't do it. If you think you're in a disadvantageous lane, then just farm. There's no real need to kill the other dude sometimes.
If he's in cannon form he'll harass you with autos, which you can't dodge. You take so much free hits if you try to farm against a Jayce that stays in cannon form, and if you try to punish him for it he'll just switch to hammer, E you away (automatically winning the trade in the process) and walk away. Sure he'll push, but he can also harass you under tower easily it if comes to this, and you'll get zoned early on and possibly lose a lot of cs.
I know the answer to "your opponent pushes you" is to call your jungler for a gank, but when people keep telling me "Irelia counters Jayce" then I take it as "you're not supposed to need your jungler/end up harassed under your tower", so there must be something to lane control/farming against him, or even outtrading him.
Then what do you do to all the other auto attacker tops like teemo that have good disengage and a lot of harass potential? o_O
Jayce's advantage is that huge cannon poke so just get boots three and dodge accordingly. Q to creeps if you have to or sac cs. If he's pushing up to your tower just wait till creeps are in your favor and take it one step at a time. Q to creeps, E, auto, walk away. Rinse and repeat. Chip him bit by bit until you think you can win an extended trade. *shrug*
Just because Jayce is in cannon form doesn't mean he can't disengage from you instantaneously like teemo does when he just goes vroom vroom away from you. At least that's how I see it.
Irelia has to try to get an advantage between around levels 5-11 when her true damage is really high but once nasus gets around level 11 (450 hp wat true damage) if he's not behind his W is really strong against her unless she rushes mercs and he can win 1v1's.
I never remember having trouble against irelia and I think overall an average match up for him but obviously if irelia snowballs she snowballs hard.
I would say in teamfights nasus is happy because he can buy frozen heart to slow her AS and then either W (will only last like 2 seconds on a mercs passive irelia) to kite her or just W their AD and help DPS down the irelia.
That said I would be careful as fuck picking him against wickds irelia and also depends on how well their jungler can gank a passive lane. (either brush gank or tower diving)
I haven't tested it at "high" elo though because people just like to troll me when I pick nasus and I usually can't pick top late enough anyways.
As nasus I'd rush shurelyas and then frozen heart. As irelia it's really tricky for her because rushing mercs helps vs W, but then you have zero armour against his Q especially under E, and there's no easy way to get armour except dorans shield which seems like a meh buy against a passive laner. Wits end would be best to duel him but its more MR and you kinda want trinity force. I'd probably just rush mercs and trinity as irelia maybe with a chain vest early.
I would say you wouldn't pick irelia into a nasus but you wouldn't be worried about nasus being picked into you TOO much because you have opportunity to outplay him (or be outplayed)
On September 10 2012 06:17 gtrsrs wrote: can you detail irelia v nasus?
The idea behind Irelia vs nasus is that you scale so much better with farm that it's a lane win if you go equal on farm. She can't really kill you because when ever she uses her W you W her in return and she gets crippled. Basically you just win the lane by farming.
I dislike the whole "X scales better than Y" argument. Scaling into lategame is not an absolute variable and changes massivel relative to farm levels and teamcomps. You shouldn't assume nasus is going to be more effective because it's possible to carry a game as irelia while not winning lane hard against nasus and vice versa. If you are a good irelia player you can gain little advantages and play better in teamfights and win, nasus isn't guaranteed to be a good lategame nor is irelia, they both have potential. It depends a lot on teamcomps, however the plus for nasus is that irelia tends to want to dive, and nasus tends to want teams to dive into his because he can't engage himself so he needs their team to come to him and then he can use his AoE, team debuffs, CC, and overall strong bruiser stats to win teamfights.
However, even small advantages in lane feel huge later. The ability to push around the other guy in lane is huge, even if it's a 30 cs advantage, you can push his tower, and get him farming top while you're there to make plays and tend to pick up the kills and assists more than he does, or if he leaves lane you can shove even harder and pressure their second tower, so as a general rule I'd say if you can't beat the other laner in 1v1 as a bruiser you don't want to pick him. If it's a tank or AP it's a different story though. Even if its yorick or something nasus can push yorick around later on if you get even or more farmed. (And it's easy to gank yorick with nasus because of 5 second W yorick can't afford to rush mercs)
On September 10 2012 06:17 gtrsrs wrote: can you detail irelia v nasus?
The idea behind Irelia vs nasus is that you scale so much better with farm that it's a lane win if you go equal on farm. She can't really kill you because when ever she uses her W you W her in return and she gets crippled. Basically you just win the lane by farming.
Eh... Irelia scales pretty well herself, and can use her Q as an auto reset when suffering the worst of the AS slow during trades. Ultimately, with auto-resetting, mercs and her passive, your W just doesn't affect Irelia as much as you need it to, and she can trade pretty hard and potentially bully you out of the lane, while matching your sustain and scaling. She's also perfectly capable of NOT pushing the lane, meaning you won't get to freeze the lane like you pretty much need to as Nasus.
On September 10 2012 06:17 gtrsrs wrote: can you detail irelia v nasus?
The idea behind Irelia vs nasus is that you scale so much better with farm that it's a lane win if you go equal on farm. She can't really kill you because when ever she uses her W you W her in return and she gets crippled. Basically you just win the lane by farming.
Eh... Irelia scales pretty well herself, and can use her Q as an auto reset when suffering the worst of the AS slow during trades. Ultimately, with auto-resetting, mercs and her passive, your W just doesn't affect Irelia as much as you need it to, and she can trade pretty hard and potentially bully you out of the lane, while matching your sustain and scaling. She's also perfectly capable of NOT pushing the lane, meaning you won't get to freeze the lane like you pretty much need to as Nasus.
If she goes in to bully you the lane always pushes because all of your creeps are trying to attack her while your sitting in the back row and the enemy ranged creeps are still hitting your minions.Yes Irelia is a stronger laner but nasus is perfectly capable of not dying and preventing the allin from killing him.Freezing a lane is not that hard tbh,the hard part is keeping the growth of the wave under control,because if you suddenly find yourself with a huge amount of creeps that aren't dead and you are a lvl behind and can't even think about anything else but moving back when she goes in to trade blows,eventually you will have to give in and let it push completely out to your tower.If your jungler isn't an idiot he will exploit the fact that the lane will be mostly pushed and gank her.The only way to not have the lane pushing for Irelia is if she just last hits and minds her own business,which you are more than ok with. Everything Slayer said is pretty much spot on tho.
On September 08 2012 06:33 Alaric wrote: I can't even beat Irelia as Jayce, I've been picking her everytime I get top recently because I want to improve (or rather undo the crust of rust I've gathered on a lot of champs) and almost all of those games Jayce was top (picked before or after me), and I'd get fucking annoyed because I can't engage him if he doesn't stay near an almost dead minion (he's ranged so it's easy for him) as he'll simply laugh and kite backwards while harassing. And he'll only engage me in hammer form with Q, the slow making it really hard to reposition before he Es me away (or else I'd move near a wall or between his tower and him).
I end up pushed and harassed every game as there's no way you fight him early (where ranged > melee), nor at level 3-4 where he hits a window, and after that he just uses E to win trades as I can't be building boots+armor+MR all at the same time, and he can abuse his way shorter CDs and stupidly low mana costs (Hiten 15s, then choose between 14s Q cd or only 1s E stun/slow). So he harasses me at tower and build up a lead such that I generally have to back before 6 unless a gank happens, then lose even more creeps since I'm pushed when I have to back, and he rides on that and his stupidly versatile as hell kit.
I don't even know how to spec against him, I tried 19-11, a 9-13-8 variation for more MR, armor and MS since 19-11 never catches up to him and I can never prevent him from dictating trades. I've tried AS reds, flat armor yellows, and then either flat MR blues/quints, MR/level blues/MS quints, MR/levels blues/armor quints. I generally start cloth+5 because he's ranged and I'll never catch him early on anyway (nor do I want to go on the offensive from the start as Irelia), tried boots->phage->wit's (ie NMM), tabi->phage->triforce, tabi->phage->MR, and though it often has to do with him getting a lead early, none of those builds seemed to give me early armor against his harass, damage/sticking power (I feel like I need the phage even though I don't remember a single situation where I got a proc that allowed me to stick to him more than one auto, bullshit MS buffs everywhere), and MR in time for his level 4-5 hammer E.
I know my mechanics are bad and the "when he attacks you, position so that he can't E you and run to his tower/E you away enough that you can't Q to him" is only a part of the solution, but people have been telling me that Irelia should beat Jayce (without telling me how, so smug) and I just can't manage to do it.
I am pretty sure Irelia counters Jayce.
I read the "Irelia is a counter to Jayce" all the time but i've never seen it happen when Jayce didn't make a huge mistake.
I'm not a good player, so i might be wrong but every time i either played Irelia vs Jayce or played Jayce myself against Irelia there was no chance for her to do anything in lane. His level 2 combo takes Irelia to 50% health after which he can just do ranged harass or just melee Q/E every time she moves away from tower and if he does it right the E pushes her even further away from tower, turning it into a guaranteed kill for Jayce.
The most success i had was to stay as far away from him as possible until level 3, then walk right up to him and start autoattacking until he combos, then QEW back on him and do as much damage as possible while his skills are on cooldown. As Jayce it's simple, wait for level 2, do ranged EQ->melee QE and then get some distance between you and her until your cooldowns are over. Repeat until you have won the lane.
Irelia might outscale Jayce eventually but from my - admittedly limited - experience she gets dominated by Jayce in the laning phase and i haven't seen a single game where that wasn't the case. Unlike other strong early game champions, Jayce also has lategame utility so it's not a "just survive and then he'll be useless" situation either.
Then again, maybe i'm just bad and spectate the wrong games.
Now that the new season is coming, I think we could start a discussion about new items that affect Irelia.
For starters here are my thoughts:
Zephyr - I am torn about this item. All it's stats are useful. Tenacity will allow you to buy other boots (ninja, beserker's(?)). But the problem is that it is an almost purely offensive item. It does not have any survivability built in except for the tenacity. Tenacity is a stat that you can easily obtain from mercs and i'm not sure that allowing you to buy other boots is really worth it. CDR is also not the first stat I would want on Irelia but it won't hurt. I think this item could maybe replace TF as a big core item to rush but I don't think it can play the role of wit's end (secondary item, cheaper and has dmg + survivability)
Iceborn Gauntlet - Looks nice but I am worried that there are just too many stats that are wasted. Mana and AP are kinda useless. CDR is not the best either but it's not as useless. Armor is good, the active is awesome. Maybe instead of randuins?
Ravenous Hydra (Melee Only) - Maybe get for lols if you are winning. It doesn't seem that good on Irelia.
Wit's End - Got a tiny bit more expensive. Should still be good.
Guinsoo's Rageblade - Ah, the memories... Maybe with the new passive this item could be ok-ish. It gives some extra surviability and AS. I will buy it for shits and giggles.
Randuin's Omen - Worse slow but procs on every attack. Passive still the same. Looks good.
Trinity Force - Only changed a bit because of zeal nerfs. Still good.
On December 04 2012 20:03 rethos wrote: Now that the new season is coming, I think we could start a discussion about new items that affect Irelia.
For starters here are my thoughts:
Zephyr - I am torn about this item. All it's stats are useful. Tenacity will allow you to buy other boots (ninja, beserker's(?)). But the problem is that it is an almost purely offensive item. It does not have any survivability built in except for the tenacity. Tenacity is a stat that you can easily obtain from mercs and i'm not sure that allowing you to buy other boots is really worth it. CDR is also not the first stat I would want on Irelia but it won't hurt. I think this item could maybe replace TF as a big core item to rush but I don't think it can play the role of wit's end (secondary item, cheaper and has dmg + survivability)
Iceborn Gauntlet - Looks nice but I am worried that there are just too many stats that are wasted. Mana and AP are kinda useless. CDR is not the best either but it's not as useless. Armor is good, the active is awesome. Maybe instead of randuins?
Ravenous Hydra (Melee Only) - Maybe get for lols if you are winning. It doesn't seem that good on Irelia.
Wit's End - Got a tiny bit more expensive. Should still be good.
Guinsoo's Rageblade - Ah, the memories... Maybe with the new passive this item could be ok-ish. It gives some extra surviability and AS. I will buy it for shits and giggles.
Randuin's Omen - Worse slow but procs on every attack. Passive still the same. Looks good.
Trinity Force - Only changed a bit because of zeal nerfs. Still good.
Zephyr - I could see this as a 3rd item instead of wits, after GA against heavy AD comps where you'd want to keep tabi's. I don't think it will replace TF, the phage proc+burst from sheen is too good to not get.
iceborn - No. She already has E slow/stun, a gap closer that applies onhits, and probably getting AS for more chances of phage procs. FH is better in almost every way if you get glacial.
Hydra - If you get fed I could see you getting this. Allows you to waveclear without blowing ulti or tons of mana, and lifesteal is nice. She does have the AA reset to take advantage of proccing it if you can initiate without using Q.
wits - still best vs lots of magic
Rageblade - Maw+hydra+this+trinity+GA+boots. Become a god the moment you drop below 50%, as your sustain massively increases.
Randuin's - Still a core item on most bruisers IMO.
Zephyr - I could see this as a 3rd item instead of wits, after GA against heavy AD comps where you'd want to keep tabi's. I don't think it will replace TF, the phage proc+burst from sheen is too good to not get.
iceborn - No. She already has E slow/stun, a gap closer that applies onhits, and probably getting AS for more chances of phage procs. FH is better in almost every way if you get glacial.
Hydra - If you get fed I could see you getting this. Allows you to waveclear without blowing ulti or tons of mana, and lifesteal is nice. She does have the AA reset to take advantage of proccing it if you can initiate without using Q.
wits - still best vs lots of magic
Rageblade - Maw+hydra+this+trinity+GA+boots. Become a god the moment you drop below 50%, as your sustain massively increases.
Randuin's - Still a core item on most bruisers IMO.
Iceborn has an aoe slow and therefore I think it's more alike randuins only it procs once every 2 seconds. I think if this item did not have mana / ap as a big portion of it's price it would be very very very good on Irelia.
I don't really see myself buying Zephyr third. I don't know if you can afford buying that late an item that does not have some defensive stats. Maybe it is worth mentioning that Zephir + Phage ~ TF from a cost perspective. So instead of the sheen (that only really gives you some burst, and maybe the mana is a bit relevant) you can get a lot of other stats. Phage can then turn into frozen mallet (or maybe triforce but you become to squishy).
The thing is the old build seems still nice to use with the TF and GA but i cant help but wonder maybe, with conjunction with the new masteries, maybe Zephir/FM would do nicely (assuming you went ?/21/?). Trade off 25% lost of the sheen proc with Zephir (remember TF does 150 while zephir does 125) for a crap ton of health.So maybe the trick of building Irelia is to utilize the new masteries (Legendary armour - 6% bonus MR and armour / juggernaut - bonus 4% hp)
or just follow the whole "GA tanky" idea and go: GA, TF, Hydra, Rageblade ^^seems pretty nice especially with these items it will make you a god after the GA proc. Go in, hydra active, pwn with lifesteal, GA proc, pwn some more and maybe hydra active if up
Keep in mind Irelia still itemizes resists + attack speed most. Irelia wins by doing sustained true damage. She does her sustained true damage by building resists and attack speed.
I don't really like hydra on irelia; If you want a damage + lifesteal item, get BotRK instead since it has an on-hit, and still gives ridiculous sustain. It's also a lot cheaper. It's especially useful early on against a health-tank in top lane (volibear/olaf/shen).
Now, I do think the new rageblade has potential. The new passive increases her sustain by quite a bit. Keep in mind that spell vamp works with true damage, so 10% spell vamp + lifesteal is pretty big. I don't think it's as good as tri-force/GA though, so it's a late-game offense item.
I like zephyr too. The big reason zephyr is good though is because it builds out of stinger, which is amazing on irelia. Build stinger early, wait until late-game to upgrade to zephyr.
Also keep in mind that irelia has a very easy time with getting stacks on rageblade. Q gives 2 stacks (counts as auto and spell cast) and can refresh. She also has 4 stack from her ulti. I thinkg rageblade will definetly deserve a try.
On December 05 2012 08:44 triangle wrote: What do people think of Statikk Shiv on Irelia? Get avarice blade for the gold and then get it after phage or something.
I tried it once on PBE. It really feels underwhelming. You don't get charges fast enough and I really don't see why you would buy it over Zephyr.
I think Zephyr is going to be my new core item on Irelia. I'm also strongly considering Beserkers Greaves now that I don't need the tenacity.
Looking for an Irelia build that doesnt include a sheen. So Berserkers>Zephyr>Randuins>Wits End>and finally a Statikk Shiv for the lolz looks promising at least!
And if I'm really concerned with getting bursted by castors then replace wits end with spirit visage (extra tankyness and still keeps up Irelia's high sustain).
Updating my own guide about Irelia if anybody wants to take a look, I feel Zephyr is only an option if you don't get mercury treads. I prefer Wits over shiv, it's like a nerfed Ionic Spark to me.
I've tried zephyr+trinity a few times now and I love it. It makes you less of a 'dive into middle of enemy team and tank allllll the damage' threat and more of a cleanup/mobility threat, so it's not a great build if you're the only tanky champ on the team. The big thing it does is open up your boots so you can take boots of celerity which are *amazing* on her now. The slow resist and tenacity masteries in defence, combined with the extra movespeed on boots of celerity, *their* slow resist AND the 10% move speed you get from zephyr make you absurdly resistant to CC and incredibly hard to pin or chase down. You sit at around 475 movement speed without a boot enchant. It gives you incredible map presence to run around in jungles and between lanes during the late midgame since you can outduel pretty much anything and nothing short of three people including a blitzcrank is going to be able to catch you unless you're really, really stupid
I can see it working really, really well if you have a tanky/zone control teammate like a jungle mumu or hecarim or a taric or leona support. On the other hand, if you have no such assistance, it's infeasible. With all the other changes, I really feel that makes irelia infeasible herself. She just can't get in and fuck people over as easily now, since supports are tankier and carries are harder to lock onto now with crucible, shard and scimitar plus more midgame damage. You're going to either have to stack damage and assassinate, or duel bruisers.
I'm not sure that's true. I mean, I don't think she can do what she used to do, which was imba bullshit anyway and only got fixed by spawning more imba bullshit that really messed with the game's overall balance. I think she is in a good place now, she's a genuine melee fighter, one who can get into a team fight, make plays, get kills and not be trivial to get rid of (but nor is she impossible to deal with like S2 triforce+GA irelia). She's on the squishier more damage dealing side of the bruiser equation now, and I think you definitely can't make her work the same as the old irelia style, but that doesn't mean she's bad. Just different. Some examples of shit I want to try are mixing up heal/spirit visage/Elisa's miracle as part of a build rather than ignite to compensate for her lower tankiness, to bait and provide more utility, possibly running some hybrid AP like rageblade or gunblade, though I'm honestly not sure about this. Running some scaling armor runes since you can run some very sustainy early game stuff on her without much issue, as long as you're not planning on playing agressively (I've started crystal+2pots+charm successfully a few times), which might help scale her resistances better.
So many new things to try, so don't be afraid to go nuts and experiment with wierd shit. I mean, I think trinity force rush is still pretty mandatory on her, but you can mix up how you get there and what you do after it.
I think she's about as strong before now that Black Cleaver is nerfed. Not quite, but close. You can't get a GA and be hyper aggressive because you're not as tanky anymore, but I always felt like that was kind of dumb anyways. I preferred to go frozen heart/randuins, and I still feel like that works fine.
This lady is ridiculous. Huge sweeping changes to armor pen and masteries that should completely destroy Irelia? Tons of new items, none of which are good for Irelia?
I gave up on irelia new masteries made her suck in lane. I just moved on to renekton way more fun and can carry harder late game with BC BT sunfire mercs with furor SV and ga :D. I was like 21-4 on irelia at 1500-1600ish oh well ;_;
I don't really think building GA after TF is that great anymore, but I think the new masteries aren't too bad for her. I've been going 1/25/4 with decent results. Instead of GA I've been building other defensive items like Warden's Mail or an earlier Wit's End. I find that the new defensive tree makes Irelia a lot stronger past the laning phase.
On December 21 2012 03:42 koreasilver wrote: I don't really think building GA after TF is that great anymore, but I think the new masteries aren't too bad for her. I've been going 1/25/4 with decent results. Instead of GA I've been building other defensive items like Warden's Mail or an earlier Wit's End. I find that the new defensive tree makes Irelia a lot stronger past the laning phase.
For shits the other day I built TF-> Wit's -> BotRK for some on-hit funtimes instead of GA. I was very pleased with the results, very bursty and still tanky, plus Q AA E AA is a lot of on-hit damage.
On December 18 2012 05:42 Sandster wrote: This lady is ridiculous. Huge sweeping changes to armor pen and masteries that should completely destroy Irelia? Tons of new items, none of which are good for Irelia?
Still one of the best top laners in the game.
I think it's just how she works in the game which makes her OP and really hard to nerf/balance. You can make her weaker, but she will still either be amazing or become useless. Passive which makes her extremely hard to peel while doing insane damage quickly to carries even if she has more or less only built defensive items, that's a combo you can't nerf away without changing her completely, and it's what makes her completely bonkers. As an ADC player myself, as long as Irelia can keep killing me every single teamfight without me (or my team) being able to do a single thing to stop it, she will be banned when I play draft.
On December 21 2012 14:20 Alaric wrote: Do you really need those 180 mana that hard?
I'd rather go 9/x/4(7) for mana regen and flash mastery. But having the extra mana just makes you so much stronger in lane because you can actually trade with people while CSing on occasion with Q. Simple things like W->Qing a low minion, stun opponent->auto->Q a last hit to get away, and then as the guy retreats Q him and auto him once before walking away. That's like 200 mana expended in a single trade, and the ability to not be OOM is really really strong because irelia doesn't benefit that much from late defense IMO.
You never had to go 9 into offensive on Irelia at all, honestly. Even in S2, at least 21 into defense was always the most optimal on Irelia, and since the mana regen required at least 7 into utility, it was just better to put the remaining point into defense so it'll be 1/22/7. Wickd has used a lot of different masteries on Irelia with 1/22/7, 9/14/7, 9/21/0, etc., but 1/22/7 was always the strongest set up for laning phase by a pretty large margin, and even in S3 against auto attacking champions 1/25/4 is by far the best set up for laning. The extra mana mastery is garbage because it's going to give completely negligible amounts of mana during laning phase. 10 mana per level - seriously?
Lets say that you're laning against Jax, for example.
This will make it pretty much impossible for Jax to beat you out of lane unless you fuck up catastrophically, and past laning phase you will be someone that is very hard to kite. 8% arpen and 12 ad at lvl18 isn't going to do shit for you as Irelia compared to having maxed out relentless, tenacious, reinforced armor, and honor guard. The defensive tree isn't just better for Irelia during laning, but also past laning phase.
On December 18 2012 05:42 Sandster wrote: This lady is ridiculous. Huge sweeping changes to armor pen and masteries that should completely destroy Irelia? Tons of new items, none of which are good for Irelia?
Still one of the best top laners in the game.
I think it's just how she works in the game which makes her OP and really hard to nerf/balance. You can make her weaker, but she will still either be amazing or become useless. Passive which makes her extremely hard to peel while doing insane damage quickly to carries even if she has more or less only built defensive items, that's a combo you can't nerf away without changing her completely, and it's what makes her completely bonkers. As an ADC player myself, as long as Irelia can keep killing me every single teamfight without me (or my team) being able to do a single thing to stop it, she will be banned when I play draft.
Can't confirm this. Ire does not have a amazing/useless relation to balance. Her lane-sustain was the frustrating and overpowered part of her and they fixed it. Ire is one of the best anti carries in the game but she is not a problematic champion just because of that. There will allways be matchups where certain roles of a team have a smaller impact compared to other matchups which is fine and gives the game an additional layer of depth. If you look at the game from a role perspective then you miss out on a lot of important and fun things in the game.
On December 18 2012 05:42 Sandster wrote: This lady is ridiculous. Huge sweeping changes to armor pen and masteries that should completely destroy Irelia? Tons of new items, none of which are good for Irelia?
Still one of the best top laners in the game.
I think it's just how she works in the game which makes her OP and really hard to nerf/balance. You can make her weaker, but she will still either be amazing or become useless. Passive which makes her extremely hard to peel while doing insane damage quickly to carries even if she has more or less only built defensive items, that's a combo you can't nerf away without changing her completely, and it's what makes her completely bonkers. As an ADC player myself, as long as Irelia can keep killing me every single teamfight without me (or my team) being able to do a single thing to stop it, she will be banned when I play draft.
Can't confirm this. Ire does not have a amazing/useless relation to balance. Her lane-sustain was the frustrating and overpowered part of her and they fixed it. Ire is one of the best anti carries in the game but she is not a problematic champion just because of that. There will allways be matchups where certain roles of a team have a smaller impact compared to other matchups which is fine and gives the game an additional layer of depth. If you look at the game from a role perspective then you miss out on a lot of important and fun things in the game.
I don't see how this is true in LoL where the meta is so extremely strict. In Dota 2, sure. You might not even have any hard carry in your composition. In LoL though? You will always have an ADC and an APC, and irelia counters them both. The opposing team really doesn't lose anything from having an Irelia. Sure, if the non-irelia team is losing and their ADC/APC are behind, Irelia brings less to the table for the teamfights since she isn't needed to instagib their carries... but who cares, they team are behind on their carries, they are losing anyway, unless their top/jungler somehow got all the kills and are actually carrying the game.
On December 21 2012 19:10 bobbob wrote: Zephyr seems like it could replace Wits in a lot of builds, if they involve Ninja Tabi. The 10% MS from Zephyr is really nice.
So when you build non-MR boots you replace your MR item by another one. Where's your MR?
9/14/7 was what he last settled on for irelia but he experimented a shit ton on everything on her. He was still using 1/22/7 on some matchups in solo queue when he streamed.
On December 21 2012 19:12 koreasilver wrote: You never had to go 9 into offensive on Irelia at all, honestly. Even in S2, at least 21 into defense was always the most optimal on Irelia, and since the mana regen required at least 7 into utility, it was just better to put the remaining point into defense so it'll be 1/22/7. Wickd has used a lot of different masteries on Irelia with 1/22/7, 9/14/7, 9/21/0, etc., but 1/22/7 was always the strongest set up for laning phase by a pretty large margin, and even in S3 against auto attacking champions 1/25/4 is by far the best set up for laning. The extra mana mastery is garbage because it's going to give completely negligible amounts of mana during laning phase. 10 mana per level - seriously?
Lets say that you're laning against Jax, for example.
This will make it pretty much impossible for Jax to beat you out of lane unless you fuck up catastrophically, and past laning phase you will be someone that is very hard to kite. 8% arpen and 12 ad at lvl18 isn't going to do shit for you as Irelia compared to having maxed out relentless, tenacious, reinforced armor, and honor guard. The defensive tree isn't just better for Irelia during laning, but also past laning phase.
This is what I run, but you definitely want defender. Take a point out of armor or MR. 1.5 armor or 1.5 mr is worth trading for 1 armor + 1 MR during laning phase, and up to 5 armor + 5 MR during teamfights.
this really seems like a specific counter build, because I can't see how 3ad outweighs 10% tenacity or 2.75% more life without some context behind this decision
this really seems like a specific counter build, because I can't see how 3ad outweighs 10% tenacity or 2.75% more life without some context behind this decision
I run 1/21/8 myself pretty much all of the time.
Hes currently using the same 14/13/3 setup vs Singed.
On January 01 2013 07:35 MagicARide wrote: Does anyone know if statikk shiv on Irelia is legit? back in season 2 she could've gotten the spark, but is the shiv viable?
Shiv costs 400 more, doesn't give any HP, the proc does less damage (and triggers slightly slower for the most part), and you pay for more crit which you don't actually care about. The MS is decent but you're Irelia and you press Q (Zephyr is pretty sweet for MS, but also costs $$$$).
HP quints worth getting? I'm going to learn Irelia soon and they're a ton of IP. I have sets of MR and Armor quints, so I'm debating how worth it they are.
On March 18 2013 17:47 Gahlo wrote: HP quints worth getting? I'm going to learn Irelia soon and they're a ton of IP. I have sets of MR and Armor quints, so I'm debating how worth it they are.
I consistently use armor and MR quints for tough lanes. (AD / Armor / MR / MR and AD / Armor / ScalingMR / Armor)
I use AD over other things on these pages because the idea is that if its a disadvantaged lane, I could probably really benefit from wider last-hit windows - it's likely I'll be CSing under my tower or trying to snatch CS then back off before they can get aggressive on me.
I used to use HP5 quints instead of Armor/MR quints if the lane were mixed damage harass, but I think just going with my default MS quint page is fine really.
And yes, Warmogs is fine. Right now my builds tend to be BORK -> Randuins/Warmogs/Runic -> whatever (Triforce still good, more tank items are fine, etc)
Blade of the ruined king is just exactly what Irelia wants. Pretty good amount of attack speed, current HP damage mixes well with her true damage (Stack HP? BORK does well. Resists? Hiten Style does well) and the active is great for sticking to someone between your first usage of EqStrike and your second. But warden's mail is still extremely effective against her - beware!
this really seems like a specific counter build, because I can't see how 3ad outweighs 10% tenacity or 2.75% more life without some context behind this decision
I run 1/21/8 myself pretty much all of the time.
both of which are nigh on useless in the lane phase, while 3 helps during all the game. He's going purely for the lane phase. At 2k hp 2.75% more life is a little more than 50 hp which is about only 140 gold so if you get more cs from the laning phase its already worth it. (since you already have ~100 gold of ad)
Can any high elo players comment on the state of Irelia right now? She's been my favorite champion since S2, but I've found it much harder to carry with her in S3. I've seen people in diamond going TF into GA or Zephyr, but it only seems to work when you're fed. Building resists isn't as good as it used to be, but at the same time HP items like Warmogs seem like a bad choice on Irelia. My question is, does her good kit make up for her bad itemization? Is it worth it to play Irelia as anything but a counterpick? Or should I just resort to playing other champions?
As someone above said, BotRK is pretty damn good on her, From there, you want pretty much equal parts health and armor/mr. Stuff like Randuins is always good, and if no one else is getting it (pretty rare), aegis is a good buy as well. I don't like Warmogs so much, as it only gives hp (and no other effects or anything). Locket might be good, as it's pretty much good on everyone, but again, it'll probably already be bought. Zephyr is good if you're doing really well. I have no idea about how good Trinity is on her.
Trinity is awesome on Irelia, procs with Q and gives her pretty much all the stats she wants.
I would probably go Botrk, Randuins, Trinity, Spirit visage and a random six item depending on the situation. (Zephyr if I didn't get merc treads, Guardian Angel, Black Clever, etc)
Yeah, I really think Botrk as 1st item is insane on Irelia. She already has a ton of sustain from her W and her Ult, then add on Botrk and you can't ever budge her. Plus the active just makes her able to stick to the enemy longer thus giving her more attacks with her W up. I mean, it's dmg, life steal, atk speed & an amazing proc.
I'd pretty much agree with Ravenloud. Although I think you can even delay Trinity farther along, going Botrk > Randuins/Visage/Aegis/Locket depending on enemy team comp and who is building what. Usually junglers/supports get aegis & locket so usually it's better to grab Randuins or Visage. I think with Botrk you can usually go Randuins + Visage before building towards Trinity.
Maybe grab a phage in between randuins & visage if you want some more sticking power, but honestly with your cooldowns and botrk you should be okay. Plus I run Irelia with Ghost, which means most team fights you have ghost up so you don't need the extra sticking power from phage so I'd rather get more tanky.
On April 15 2013 14:02 SidianTheBard wrote: Yeah, I really think Botrk as 1st item is insane on Irelia. She already has a ton of sustain from her W and her Ult, then add on Botrk and you can't ever budge her. Plus the active just makes her able to stick to the enemy longer thus giving her more attacks with her W up. I mean, it's dmg, life steal, atk speed & an amazing proc.
I'd pretty much agree with Ravenloud. Although I think you can even delay Trinity farther along, going Botrk > Randuins/Visage/Aegis/Locket depending on enemy team comp and who is building what. Usually junglers/supports get aegis & locket so usually it's better to grab Randuins or Visage. I think with Botrk you can usually go Randuins + Visage before building towards Trinity.
Maybe grab a phage in between randuins & visage if you want some more sticking power, but honestly with your cooldowns and botrk you should be okay. Plus I run Irelia with Ghost, which means most team fights you have ghost up so you don't need the extra sticking power from phage so I'd rather get more tanky.
From what I've gathered from Wikd's lolkings, he goes BotRK>Randuins all the time.
On April 15 2013 14:02 SidianTheBard wrote: Yeah, I really think Botrk as 1st item is insane on Irelia. She already has a ton of sustain from her W and her Ult, then add on Botrk and you can't ever budge her. Plus the active just makes her able to stick to the enemy longer thus giving her more attacks with her W up. I mean, it's dmg, life steal, atk speed & an amazing proc.
I'd pretty much agree with Ravenloud. Although I think you can even delay Trinity farther along, going Botrk > Randuins/Visage/Aegis/Locket depending on enemy team comp and who is building what. Usually junglers/supports get aegis & locket so usually it's better to grab Randuins or Visage. I think with Botrk you can usually go Randuins + Visage before building towards Trinity.
Maybe grab a phage in between randuins & visage if you want some more sticking power, but honestly with your cooldowns and botrk you should be okay. Plus I run Irelia with Ghost, which means most team fights you have ghost up so you don't need the extra sticking power from phage so I'd rather get more tanky.
From what I've gathered from Wikd's lolkings, he goes BotRK>Randuins all the time.
Hmm, well WikD knows what he's doing. Looks like that's my build, thanks for the info.
On April 15 2013 14:02 SidianTheBard wrote: Yeah, I really think Botrk as 1st item is insane on Irelia. She already has a ton of sustain from her W and her Ult, then add on Botrk and you can't ever budge her. Plus the active just makes her able to stick to the enemy longer thus giving her more attacks with her W up. I mean, it's dmg, life steal, atk speed & an amazing proc.
I'd pretty much agree with Ravenloud. Although I think you can even delay Trinity farther along, going Botrk > Randuins/Visage/Aegis/Locket depending on enemy team comp and who is building what. Usually junglers/supports get aegis & locket so usually it's better to grab Randuins or Visage. I think with Botrk you can usually go Randuins + Visage before building towards Trinity.
Maybe grab a phage in between randuins & visage if you want some more sticking power, but honestly with your cooldowns and botrk you should be okay. Plus I run Irelia with Ghost, which means most team fights you have ghost up so you don't need the extra sticking power from phage so I'd rather get more tanky.
From what I've gathered from Wikd's lolkings, he goes BotRK>Randuins all the time.
Hmm, well WikD knows what he's doing. Looks like that's my build, thanks for the info.
Last I checked was a month or so ago, but lets face it, both those items are super strong anyway.
Watching WickD's stream right now, I see him rushing triforce. When snowballing, Zerkers seem like a good option. He then builds appropriate defensive items. I don't see BotRK anywhere, though. Maybe he was testing its viability.
I'm actually wondering whether Triforce->randuin is better than BotRK->Randuin. I find Tri to give more stats you like, but BotRK gives that awesome attack speed and active. I think it might actually come down to lane situation with no clear winner, as both are awesome.
On April 17 2013 09:26 Dark_Chill wrote: I'm actually wondering whether Triforce->randuin is better than BotRK->Randuin. I find Tri to give more stats you like, but BotRK gives that awesome attack speed and active. I think it might actually come down to lane situation with no clear winner, as both are awesome.
I honestly don't like the triforce buildpath anymore. Phage was easily the best starting item for Irelia, and its price went up by 200g (13xx -> 15xx) - Bilgewater also gives you a slow, but gives you extremely relevant added sustain (it's SO HARD to push Irelia around once she has it.) You don't really need TONS of slow, just enough to keep on them after Equilibrium Strike wears off.
On April 17 2013 14:03 HesitatioN wrote: spirit visage is too selfish of an item on irelia, should opt for bulwark/radiun/locket to help out your team.
i dont think taking mr quints is necessary. outplaying the elise's stun is key to winning the matchup.
also i think AS reds are the most optimal on ire
I think Spirit Visage gives Irelia everything she needs. The health/resists are self-explanatory, CDR is a good stat on any bruiser, and bonus heal works well with her W and R. I wouldn't buy bulwark and locket. The auras are good, but they work best on tanks, not on a bruiser-assassin.
But if you're doing well in lane, why buy visage when you can buy Wit's End? Even with the nerfs, I think it's still the best source of MR for Irelia. The stats on that item are way too good to pass up. Irelia needs an attack speed item, and unless you're buying Stinger, I'd always go for Wit's.
And yeah, I'd agree that attack speed is the best possible stat to have on Irelia.
wits end is an extremely underwhelming 1st item on ire now, it doesn't provide enough stats to warrant a rush.blade outclasses wits end in every sense as an AS item for ire imo. players like megazero will typically stack 1-2 dorans -> vamp -> cutlass -> bortk to win lane vs ap. vs champions like elise and rumble, you are not opting to drag the fight out, you want to get in there and outplay their escape/peel, then kill them -> snowball -> rinse/repeat. you'll see that megazero plays the lane most correctly (all-in lvl 3~5 with redpot) in my opinion -- LCS match where he versus link's elise in week 7 or 8 i think.
you want bulwark if they go double ap for sure. raduins otherwise
On March 18 2013 17:47 Gahlo wrote: HP quints worth getting? I'm going to learn Irelia soon and they're a ton of IP. I have sets of MR and Armor quints, so I'm debating how worth it they are.
Irelia works well with nearly any set of reasonably justifiable bruiser rune page. Irelia is THAT flexible of a champion. Even if the meta doesn't work well for her (like S3 pre-BotRK, and even now where she's still so so), she's still a solid enough pick if you can actually play her properly. She just doesn't shit on certain matchups as hard anymore, which sucks hardcore.
On March 18 2013 18:25 clickrush wrote: i think wickd used regen, ms regularly.
In his guide he suggested Armor, MR, HP, and HPregen quints. When I looked him up on lolking he didn't even have regen or MS quints paged up.
His guide only suggested the marks (flat AD), seals (flat armor), and glyphs (flat MR). Quints can be nearly anything. Again, any justifiable rune page works on her. She is a flexible champion, and can be played as a full assassin, a bruiser, or a full tank. Not saying that all the different play styles are optimal, but if it works for you, you can easily find a way to make it happen.
On March 18 2013 17:47 Gahlo wrote: HP quints worth getting? I'm going to learn Irelia soon and they're a ton of IP. I have sets of MR and Armor quints, so I'm debating how worth it they are.
I consistently use armor and MR quints for tough lanes. (AD / Armor / MR / MR and AD / Armor / ScalingMR / Armor)
I use AD over other things on these pages because the idea is that if its a disadvantaged lane, I could probably really benefit from wider last-hit windows - it's likely I'll be CSing under my tower or trying to snatch CS then back off before they can get aggressive on me.
I used to use HP5 quints instead of Armor/MR quints if the lane were mixed damage harass, but I think just going with my default MS quint page is fine really.
And yes, Warmogs is fine. Right now my builds tend to be BORK -> Randuins/Warmogs/Runic -> whatever (Triforce still good, more tank items are fine, etc)
Blade of the ruined king is just exactly what Irelia wants. Pretty good amount of attack speed, current HP damage mixes well with her true damage (Stack HP? BORK does well. Resists? Hiten Style does well) and the active is great for sticking to someone between your first usage of EqStrike and your second. But warden's mail is still extremely effective against her - beware!
Warmogs as a third major item feels too quick... 4th or 5th would be best.
this really seems like a specific counter build, because I can't see how 3ad outweighs 10% tenacity or 2.75% more life without some context behind this decision
I run 1/21/8 myself pretty much all of the time.
both of which are nigh on useless in the lane phase, while 3 helps during all the game. He's going purely for the lane phase. At 2k hp 2.75% more life is a little more than 50 hp which is about only 140 gold so if you get more cs from the laning phase its already worth it. (since you already have ~100 gold of ad)
Wickd's Irelia play shouldn't ever be cited unless he puts it down in a guide and says "this is what I feel is optimal", and even then, it's what HE feels is optimal. Keep in mind, his play-style could be the polar opposite of yours. Wickd is generally a very aggressive player when he has the opportunity. The masteries that are super strong for the laning phase stop at Block. The bonus 3 AD and 1.33% extra damage (not applied on W) is a nice bit of extra damage and CSing power. Is it necessary? Of course not! If you'd rather play a 100% defensive lane, you can run a page more heavily invested in defense. Is one or the other better for laning? As long as you pick up the major masteries and ignore the terrible ones, you should be fine either way.
I can't really say 1/21/8 is more optimal than 14/13/3 in S3. Irelia doesn't need to go that deep in the utility tree. Summoner cooldown reduction? Nearly useless on her. Extra mana per level? There are better things to invest in. Flash/TP mastery? Useless, but if you're running TP then maybe... And with TP, the extra cooldown reduction is nice... But I don't like running TP Irelia. I don't like running TP in general, but it's viable and for that situation, 8 utility isn't so bad, though you can get away with 7 utility. The recall mastery is much better than the Flash mastery, and even then you shouldn't really get it unless you have an extra point left over (which I sometimes do).
On April 15 2013 03:30 TheLastRaven wrote: Can any high elo players comment on the state of Irelia right now? She's been my favorite champion since S2, but I've found it much harder to carry with her in S3. I've seen people in diamond going TF into GA or Zephyr, but it only seems to work when you're fed. Building resists isn't as good as it used to be, but at the same time HP items like Warmogs seem like a bad choice on Irelia. My question is, does her good kit make up for her bad itemization? Is it worth it to play Irelia as anything but a counterpick? Or should I just resort to playing other champions?
Irelia has fallen a far way down from her power during S2, but she's still plenty viable.
On April 17 2013 09:26 Dark_Chill wrote: I'm actually wondering whether Triforce->randuin is better than BotRK->Randuin. I find Tri to give more stats you like, but BotRK gives that awesome attack speed and active. I think it might actually come down to lane situation with no clear winner, as both are awesome.
BotRK is better. Triforce is nice, but BotRK is cheaper, gives stronger laning power, and synergizes well with Irelia's kit (though goes a bit overboard with the sustain) while covering up her biggest weakness of the current meta: HP stacking. For this reason, I feel more compelled to get the 8% APen mastery. For second item, if you feel like you have the time to get Triforce, you will be a VERY strong force. Irelia's strongest timing is around when you finish your second major item, after which she starts to fall off.
Again, even if Wickd is the best Irelia player in the world, he should almost never be cited as evidence for one build being better than another (especially if he's doing it on stream in soloq). Wickd does a lot of trollish builds and often experiments with builds if he's not trolling. He used to go 21/4/3 and rush Black Cleaver (even after the nerf). He also went Sword of the Divine and even IE on Irelia. And he still wins consistently. Why? He's THAT damn good with Irelia. Give him a handicap, he will STILL stomp in soloq with her. Voyboy is probably a better person to learn Irelia builds from, because he explains his thought process to nearly every decision even if it gets repetitive, so you'll at least understand the thought process behind the item picks.
I've seen Irelia players go for builds that I heavily disagree with, but they still make it work because they know how to play Irelia and that playstyle is different from mine.
I've cycled through many Irelia builds (because of the stupid S3 transition), and they're all good. Some, less than others, but they all work. The build I hated using the most? Probably anything involving Zephyr, because it was so damn expensive and didn't give all the stats I wanted on Irelia for the money I spent. At the start of S3, I could get Sunfire or Warmogs with that money and be a laning beast. Now, I mostly can get a BotRK.
Irelia has no lane counterpicks, no matter what anyone says. Played properly, she can beat anyone in lane. However, she has champions that will outscale her (Jax and Nasus) or essentially make her useless in a teamfight (Malphite and Nasus). This just means you need to learn to shit on these kids even harder in lane to make them your bitch, so they don't mess with you in a teamfight.
My preference on Irelia is play her in any way except full assassin (though I've been practicing with assassin champions, Irelia feels more suited to being a bruiser unless she's fed to the point her normal burst can kill a carry in 1 combo anyway). I've also played her as a full tank and peeled for my ADC and/or dived the ADC.
All playing Irelia comes down to is mastering the use of her E and Q. Mastering her E is far more important. Against melees that try to come up to harass you (or CS), you want to stun, auto, and walk away. And you should always be looking to get resets with your Q to initiate as opposed to directly initiating (this allows you to Q as they run away and get out of your range). If you can properly use her E and Q, you can win ANY lane with her (granted, some will still be hard, but they boil down to practice and experience of what you can and can't do in each situation) almost regardless of what build you choose to use (some matchups are more demanding towards a specific style than others, which is probably why some people THINK Irelia has counterpicks, since they themselves don't play that style).
On March 18 2013 18:25 clickrush wrote: i think wickd used regen, ms regularly.
In his guide he suggested Armor, MR, HP, and HPregen quints. When I looked him up on lolking he didn't even have regen or MS quints paged up.
His guide only suggested the marks (flat AD), seals (flat armor), and glyphs (flat MR). Quints can be nearly anything. Again, any justifiable rune page works on her. She is a flexible champion, and can be played as a full assassin, a bruiser, or a full tank. Not saying that all the different play styles are optimal, but if it works for you, you can easily find a way to make it happen.
You missed the Runes tab, he talks about quints in there.
mastering irelia's R in lane is also very important for aggressive play; for example if you see an opportunity to fight when they burn a key spell or when there is a creep with low hp next to them but they have alot of creeps on their side, if you are able to fight and only hit them but the majority of the creeps with your R you will be able bait a fight that they think they have the advantage in but really dont.
zephyr is a strong item on irelia. tabi is not really a good item anymore because nobody starts boots, making it very expensive to buy on your 1st back.
On April 18 2013 06:09 cLutZ wrote: I just wish Zephyr was actually good. Tabi are so usefull in like 90% of your matchups, but blahhahh tenacity.
Zephyr is amazing, combine gives so any stats.
Zephyr good as maybe one of your last items. The only defensive stat it gives tenacity, which means you need health and resists for it to be useful. I don't find the cdr to be as valuable on Irelia as other champs, but you can never really complain about cdr anyways. The MS is always helpful as well. While the item looks great, I just don't find it gives the kind of stats you want unless a) you're fed or b) you already have health/resists/other useful items.
Also, I don't see how Tabi is a bad item to get quickly. Having boots 2 compared to either no boots or boots 1 when you have tenacity is pretty damn good, and armor/reduced damage on autos is pretty amazing depending on the lane. I find that Irelia with just tanky stats early on in the game will get her through to mid game really well.
BotRK is such a ridiculous item on Irelia. With it you can 1v1 anybody from burst assassins (kha/zed) because of the heal, tanks because of the %hp damage, and the W synergy too stronk. Except for Jax, cause Jax is just inherently stronger in 1v1 (is inherent the right word? innately?)
Although the one mistake I see every snowballed Irelia that gets BotRK make is this: building MORE damage after you get that. They think they are on top of the world, and then get blown up with a little bit of peel after diving balls deep on one of your carries because they get, idunno, a trinity or something afterwards. Maybe trinity works as a secondary damage item after a couple of defense items like randuins/sv (both of which I think are core on her now) because trinity is just boss on bruisers.
On April 18 2013 13:52 Dusty wrote: BotRK is such a ridiculous item on Irelia. With it you can 1v1 anybody from burst assassins (kha/zed) because of the heal, tanks because of the %hp damage, and the W synergy too stronk. Except for Jax, cause Jax is just inherently stronger in 1v1 (is inherent the right word? innately?)
On April 18 2013 13:52 Dusty wrote: BotRK is such a ridiculous item on Irelia. With it you can 1v1 anybody from burst assassins (kha/zed) because of the heal, tanks because of the %hp damage, and the W synergy too stronk. Except for Jax, cause Jax is just inherently stronger in 1v1 (is inherent the right word? innately?)
Although the one mistake I see every snowballed Irelia that gets BotRK make is this: building MORE damage after you get that. They think they are on top of the world, and then get blown up with a little bit of peel after diving balls deep on one of your carries because they get, idunno, a trinity or something afterwards. Maybe trinity works as a secondary damage item after a couple of defense items like randuins/sv (both of which I think are core on her now) because trinity is just boss on bruisers.
Would you say after a couple of defensive items Trinity is better than Zephyr? I've been wondering whether Zephyr should even be one of Irelia's "items to get" when Trinity offers pretty appealing stats as well.
IMO triforce is better if you're farming well and/or picking up kills, but for any lane matchup that's difficult, giants belt+botrk is the way to go because it gives better laning stats.
I've toyed around with zephyr as a 5th/6th item, and stack it on top of a FH, it's pretty insane what 40% CDR irelia does, even to super mobile carries because you have Q on a sub 4s CD, with perma W and a 4.8 cd stun/slow. Absolutely incredible amounts of burst damage and stickiness.
On April 18 2013 13:52 Dusty wrote: BotRK is such a ridiculous item on Irelia. With it you can 1v1 anybody from burst assassins (kha/zed) because of the heal, tanks because of the %hp damage, and the W synergy too stronk. Except for Jax, cause Jax is just inherently stronger in 1v1 (is inherent the right word? innately?)
Although the one mistake I see every snowballed Irelia that gets BotRK make is this: building MORE damage after you get that. They think they are on top of the world, and then get blown up with a little bit of peel after diving balls deep on one of your carries because they get, idunno, a trinity or something afterwards. Maybe trinity works as a secondary damage item after a couple of defense items like randuins/sv (both of which I think are core on her now) because trinity is just boss on bruisers.
Would you say after a couple of defensive items Trinity is better than Zephyr? I've been wondering whether Zephyr should even be one of Irelia's "items to get" when Trinity offers pretty appealing stats as well.
I think Zephyr is one of those really weird items that gives a weird mashup of stats. It's cost efficient if you need the tenacity but if you don't need it, I can't see why you wouldn't get botrk/trinity over it. But what do I know, I've seen it on Irelia maybe once and they were pretty weak so .-.'
although if you do what Amui said he likes to do and get CDR capped, you become a carry's worst nightmare.
3889 gold worth of stats for 2850 gold... and the Tenacity isn't even included, it's not stats like regens or mana either. Zephyr is insanely cost-efficient, it's a monster of an item (Stinger already is super good), it's just that it's all offensive stats, and a little bit of each rather than lopsided like BT or PD, so it's better to compliment a primary damage item depending on what you need, or rounding up, than as a stand-alone.
I saw your post and went to look it up and saw that I forgot it gave 10% movespeed lol
but yeah, even though it is cost efficient, I'd rather take trinity and botrk over it. If you were to get it after those 2 I don't think it would be possible to be tanky enough to not get blown up instantly unless I'm vastly underestimating Irelia's healing and tankiness with randuins/sv
zerks/tabi/treads botrk trinity rand sv warmogs
zephyrs would be pretty godlike if you could ever manage to get to the 6 items and floating 3k gold point though.
What Quints is everyone running on Irelia or which ones would you recommend? Right now I just run with MS quints on Irelia because its either that or AD/AP. Are the AS/HP/Regen quints worth a buy?
On April 19 2013 02:13 Ghost-z wrote: What Quints is everyone running on Irelia or which ones would you recommend? Right now I just run with MS quints on Irelia because its either that or AD/AP. Are the AS/HP/Regen quints worth a buy?
On April 19 2013 02:04 heroyi wrote: zephyr just doesnt have enough defensive abilities to make people consider it more. if it gave some hp or MR/armour then it would be a VERY nice item.
Also why not get botrk and tri...Tri recently got that cost buff and it is still a very nice item to have (irelia uses all the stats minus the crit).
I think the problem is not its defensive properties (alone), but that is lacks offense as well. It is a most confusing item like Nashors was before Kayle was actually good.
I mean, if somehow it had enough Offense to be the first item for a bruiser, it would be good. Or if if it was even good enough to be a 2nd item. But it has mediocre scaling (besides tenacity) along with mediocre earlygame.
On April 19 2013 02:04 heroyi wrote: zephyr just doesnt have enough defensive abilities to make people consider it more. if it gave some hp or MR/armour then it would be a VERY nice item.
Also why not get botrk and tri...Tri recently got that cost buff and it is still a very nice item to have (irelia uses all the stats minus the crit).
I think the problem is not its defensive properties (alone), but that is lacks offense as well. It is a most confusing item like Nashors was before Kayle was actually good.
I mean, if somehow it had enough Offense to be the first item for a bruiser, it would be good. Or if if it was even good enough to be a 2nd item. But it has mediocre scaling (besides tenacity) along with mediocre earlygame.
I don't think anybody is espousing it as an early item.
Stinger is an amazing early item, don't turn it into zephyr until you really need to.
Before the BORK rework, I was going: Stinger Giant Belt BORK (yes, before the rework when it had no AS but was cheaper.) Some item that builds out of Giant's Belt Triforce or Zephyr
It's possibly still a good build order if BORK rush or bilgewater rush doesn't make sense, but I can't really imagine any situation that you aren't gonna build at least the bilgewater, and at that point, you might as well finish the BORK.
40% AS and 10% CDR for 1200 is SUPER cost-effective, though. That's like, way better than baseline cost efficiency. I love 1-1.5k items that are cost effective. I could easily see an early game build being based on Stinger, Hexdrinker, Giant Belt, Bilgewater Cutlass, and other similar cost items.
On April 19 2013 02:04 heroyi wrote: zephyr just doesnt have enough defensive abilities to make people consider it more. if it gave some hp or MR/armour then it would be a VERY nice item.
Also why not get botrk and tri...Tri recently got that cost buff and it is still a very nice item to have (irelia uses all the stats minus the crit).
I think the problem is not its defensive properties (alone), but that is lacks offense as well. It is a most confusing item like Nashors was before Kayle was actually good.
I mean, if somehow it had enough Offense to be the first item for a bruiser, it would be good. Or if if it was even good enough to be a 2nd item. But it has mediocre scaling (besides tenacity) along with mediocre earlygame.
I don't think anybody is espousing it as an early item.
Well, lets be honest, as far as most builds are concerned, there are no "not early items". Like mercurial scimitar is built in almost no games. But at least merc scim is basically a luxury item for AD champs that otherwise want QSS.
Its not like Zephyr builds out of Merc treads+ stinger as a luxury item for champs that want tenacity.
On April 19 2013 02:04 heroyi wrote: zephyr just doesnt have enough defensive abilities to make people consider it more. if it gave some hp or MR/armour then it would be a VERY nice item.
Also why not get botrk and tri...Tri recently got that cost buff and it is still a very nice item to have (irelia uses all the stats minus the crit).
I think the problem is not its defensive properties (alone), but that is lacks offense as well. It is a most confusing item like Nashors was before Kayle was actually good.
I mean, if somehow it had enough Offense to be the first item for a bruiser, it would be good. Or if if it was even good enough to be a 2nd item. But it has mediocre scaling (besides tenacity) along with mediocre earlygame.
I don't think anybody is espousing it as an early item.
Well, lets be honest, as far as most builds are concerned, there are no "not early items". Like mercurial scimitar is built in almost no games. But at least merc scim is basically a luxury item for AD champs that otherwise want QSS.
Its not like Zephyr builds out of Merc treads+ stinger as a luxury item for champs that want tenacity.
Any proper build, in my opinion, has 3 types of items. Early staple, early situational, and situational.
Stinger is the early item. Then you ignore it until 10,000 gold later.
You pick it up when there is a teamfight reason to want tenacity, but in lane you're fine running around just with Irelia's passive and maybe the mastery. (Example: Ashe) So, you're not getting merc treads early for tenacity (which means you're probably getting Ninja Tabi) but you want the option for tenacity later in the game. So, you get sitnger early and don't upgrade it until after you have your core items.
That actually looks really smooth. It's not like you can really go wrong with Stinger, and with you core you should already be really hard to kill. Something like BotRK/Randuins/MRboots and then stinger should give you everything you want.
The problem with zephyrs cost effectiveness is that if you try to put a value on BoTRK active and trinity slow proc+sheen proc they're probably just as cost efficient if not more so and in general having the extra slow is more useful than more movement speed with melee champs.
probably great for a second offensive item as an alternative to wits but I'm not sure about it as the only offensive item.
On April 21 2013 05:02 Slayer91 wrote: The problem with zephyrs cost effectiveness is that if you try to put a value on BoTRK active and trinity slow proc+sheen proc they're probably just as cost efficient if not more so and in general having the extra slow is more useful than more movement speed with melee champs.
probably great for a second offensive item as an alternative to wits but I'm not sure about it as the only offensive item.
No one's arguing whether it would make a good first/only offensive item, but rather something you get super late game. The tenacity and MS are great stats to have, and if you already have your core build and can survive/do damage, it seems like a great way to finish it off. I thought about it a bit, and because there's some overlap between Tri and Bork, I do think Zephyr would make a good second offensive item.
On April 22 2013 04:58 HesitatioN wrote: zephyr is the best fit for situations in which irelia needs a second offensive item
It's an option for when you need the tenacity. If you don't need it, BotRK/triforce are better(triforce is best, but it's hard to get out of lane against harder opponents)
bortk should be your first major item in most games, and the only problem i have with trinity is its terrible buildpath atm. its very strong when you get it together but the pieces are so underwhelming on her with phage at its current state. i believe zephyr is cost effective even without the tenacity stat? usually i would go like bortk->aegis/radiun/locket->second offensive item
So I started playing Irelia recently. could anyone still playing her tell me which items hee usually goes for? I've tried going botrk first aswell as trinity force and I think the early sheen actually is stronger than cutlass.
On June 10 2013 13:57 OmegaKnetus wrote: So I started playing Irelia recently. could anyone still playing her tell me which items hee usually goes for? I've tried going botrk first aswell as trinity force and I think the early sheen actually is stronger than cutlass.
The standard core seems to be BotRK/Trinity > Randuins. I guess it's a matter of "can I be agressive and bully him with sheen" or "do I have to sit back and try to survive the lane."
Sheen is only strongest if you're already strong enough to win trades prior, and just need a little more burst to get to 100-0 stage. Otherwise phage is better because phage proc = eat full duration W autos if you time E and Q correctly(2 free autos after E, 1 free after Q, possibly 2 depending on AS&MS).
Cutlass is stronger than both sheen and phage because the active does about as much as 2 sheen procs, gives lifesteal and AD for laning strength, and an on demand slow.
Completed trinity is better than BotRK if you plan on going 1 offensive item>randuins, but it's very hard to get there out of lane against most top laners.
depends on the game flow. those 2 would be pretty beast for dueling if you can afford to split push all game, but if you have to teamfight on 2 items, building both would leave you super light on defense.
On August 25 2013 13:02 FinestHour wrote: is botrk then triforce bad or anything in terms of delaying other stuff i feel those 2 items are so good on her or should u just pick one or the other
BorK is still better than Triforce in most situations; better lane sustain, better vs health tank tops (whom are otherwise a problem). BorK into Triforce means that unless you're dedicating yourself to dueling top lane and drawing aggro. Unless your teamcomp allows you to cleanup in teamfights, you're going to blow up unless you and your team are hideously ahead.
More often than not, getting a Randuins, Frozen Mallet, or SV is simply better if you're expecting to teamfight soon.
On August 25 2013 13:02 FinestHour wrote: is botrk then triforce bad or anything in terms of delaying other stuff i feel those 2 items are so good on her or should u just pick one or the other
BorK is still better than Triforce in most situations; better lane sustain, better vs health tank tops (whom are otherwise a problem). BorK into Triforce means that unless you're dedicating yourself to dueling top lane and drawing aggro. Unless your teamcomp allows you to cleanup in teamfights, you're going to blow up unless you and your team are hideously ahead.
More often than not, getting a Randuins, Frozen Mallet, or SV is simply better if you're expecting to teamfight soon.
Bork is significantly better in all scenario's not involving having to use bladesurge to oneshot a high HP creep to make plays happen. It's straight up better against anybody who builds tanky. I think I'd only build triforce against certain AP lanes just for the stronger burst damage and outplay potential.
I think almost every game I play I'd go damage item(with 1-2 dorans as necessary), and then tank up. Pretty much impossible to do anything useful in a teamfight without some tank items. After a couple tank items(generally rand/SV+GA), if I have the chance to go for the other offensive item I'd do it. Zephyr in combination with SV and maybe a blue pot gets pretty silly though.
My item path generally looks like BorK-Randuins/SV/FMallet, pretty much without fail. FMallet is generally the "offensive" option of those three, and SV only if I'm up against heavy magic damage, and both Randuins and Mallet are more effective in teamfights than a Triforce.
Tri-force is just broken. I have no idea why it's so broken, but it is. Getting botrk is fine, but honestly not a need unless they have 2 high hp tanky guys. I like tri+wits against double AP following with SV. Against more ad heavy teams something like tabi+tri-force+zephyr seems strong too. Randuin's is always sweet, but i'm still not sold on the new Frozen mallet. Might have to test it out abit.
Whenever I play Irelia, I feel like rushing Triforce is a giant trap. Unlike 1st item BotRK, there doesn't ever seem to be a good time to detour into a bit of tankyness.
dont do badly earlier game, you want to have trinity before big fights start and a level advantage enough that you dont rely on tank items when you're a solo laner with good base stats
you can play irelia as behind and still rushing trinity but it takes a lot more reliance on your team and finesse
On October 19 2013 20:00 Slayer91 wrote: dont do badly earlier game, you want to have trinity before big fights start and a level advantage enough that you dont rely on tank items when you're a solo laner with good base stats
you can play irelia as behind and still rushing trinity but it takes a lot more reliance on your team and finesse
It's usually by the time I hit Phage+Sheen while going even. Obviously if I'm super ahead it isn't an issue.
if we're getting like spirit of the ancient golem+trinity at 20 mins on fed junglers you want at least 20 min trinity + boots 1 and unless one lane is losing hard usually you don't need to leave top lane then you can just keep pressuring top
Honestly, I really can't justify choosing Irelia right now when there's Jax, who does more damage and is tankier. Irelia's advantages over him, involving CC-resistance, on-demand CC, and sustain, aren't really that useful right now.
I think the one place Irelia is better than Jax is against Ranged Toplaners. So I keep her as a counterpick against the occasional weirdo who goes Lissandra or Quinn Top.
On October 20 2013 05:38 HughMyron wrote: Honestly, I really can't justify choosing Irelia right now when there's Jax, who does more damage and is tankier. Irelia's advantages over him, involving CC-resistance, on-demand CC, and sustain, aren't really that useful right now.
I think the one place Irelia is better than Jax is against Ranged Toplaners. So I keep her as a counterpick against the occasional weirdo who goes Lissandra or Quinn Top.
I only really pick her when Riven isn't an option and some turd decides Jax in the jungle sounds like a good idea.
On October 20 2013 05:38 HughMyron wrote: Honestly, I really can't justify choosing Irelia right now when there's Jax, who does more damage and is tankier. Irelia's advantages over him, involving CC-resistance, on-demand CC, and sustain, aren't really that useful right now.
I think the one place Irelia is better than Jax is against Ranged Toplaners. So I keep her as a counterpick against the occasional weirdo who goes Lissandra or Quinn Top.
I only really pick her when Riven isn't an option and some turd decides Jax in the jungle sounds like a good idea.
I'm more afraid of Jax and Darius than Riven, though Riven will beat Irelia until level 9 and some armor I think. IIRC, Irelia Carries U said that Irelia can outlane Jax until about Level 11, but I never figured out how that worked.
Also, Irelia has a nice derriere, while Jax doesn't, but unfortunately, Ass != Elo.
On October 20 2013 05:38 HughMyron wrote: Honestly, I really can't justify choosing Irelia right now when there's Jax, who does more damage and is tankier. Irelia's advantages over him, involving CC-resistance, on-demand CC, and sustain, aren't really that useful right now.
I think the one place Irelia is better than Jax is against Ranged Toplaners. So I keep her as a counterpick against the occasional weirdo who goes Lissandra or Quinn Top.
I feel like Irelia handles "vs. manaless bully" top lane matchups much better too, due to having sustain that she doesn't need to spend mana on, and the super short-CD stun. Jax really struggles in matchups like that.
On October 20 2013 05:38 HughMyron wrote: Honestly, I really can't justify choosing Irelia right now when there's Jax, who does more damage and is tankier. Irelia's advantages over him, involving CC-resistance, on-demand CC, and sustain, aren't really that useful right now.
I think the one place Irelia is better than Jax is against Ranged Toplaners. So I keep her as a counterpick against the occasional weirdo who goes Lissandra or Quinn Top.
I only really pick her when Riven isn't an option and some turd decides Jax in the jungle sounds like a good idea.
I'm more afraid of Jax and Darius than Riven, though Riven will beat Irelia until level 9 and some armor I think. IIRC, Irelia Carries U said that Irelia can outlane Jax until about Level 11, but I never figured out how that worked.
Also, Irelia has a nice derriere, while Jax doesn't, but unfortunately, Ass != Elo.
Irelia > Jax -> Jax has no face. Irelia is better. Irelia > Darius -> really bad match up honestly would never pick it but Irelia is so hot + Darius looks like an ugly little bitch. Seriously fuck that guy Irelia > Riven -> I love both my women but unless Riven is using the exile skin Irelia all the way
On October 20 2013 05:38 HughMyron wrote: Honestly, I really can't justify choosing Irelia right now when there's Jax, who does more damage and is tankier. Irelia's advantages over him, involving CC-resistance, on-demand CC, and sustain, aren't really that useful right now.
I think the one place Irelia is better than Jax is against Ranged Toplaners. So I keep her as a counterpick against the occasional weirdo who goes Lissandra or Quinn Top.
I feel like Irelia handles "vs. manaless bully" top lane matchups much better too, due to having sustain that she doesn't need to spend mana on, and the super short-CD stun. Jax really struggles in matchups like that.
1) Lee beats Irelia the first 3-4 levels or so. After that, Irelia beats him (especially after the first back). Never been afraid of Lee as Irelia.
2) Riven's a challenge if you either fight her levels 1-4, or snowball her. If you stay even, you can definitely outduel her after the first/second back (and you pick up armor). Even snowballed, you can beat her with proper itemization. Been trying to figure out whether cloth+5 or Dorans would be better vs Riven (given the tendency for them to start with a damn Red Pot and have more sustain than the Dorans Shield+1 pot can provide).
3) It's hard for me to say that Irelia outlanes Jax between levels 6-11 reliably. Whereas Irelia has a slight advantage pre-6, post-6 it's an somewhat upwards (skill) matchup. You can leverage your sustain and outplay him by watching his E CD and mana bar, but unless you snowball it starts moving into his favor. Again, snowbally lane: if you are able to bully him around early and come up with an item advantage or somesuch, the lane is yours (vice-versa for Jax; he can shut you down so damn hard if he gets ahead).
4) I honestly still go BorK these days. Gives you the ability to duel virtually anyone, and enough sustain to stay in lane (plus Cutlass retains alot of cost-efficiency), and allows you to win lanes even when behind (plenty of times I've been behind in lane, then rapidly retake control of it after completing BorK). These days I tend to go BorK-Tri-tanky items as a build path. Relies on a primary initiator on your team (then again, you should never pick Irelia if you don't have one), but works very well.
Basically any matchup where you are disadvantaged for more than the first 3-4 levels you should go botrk. triforce is reserved almost entirely for lanes where you can get it first after a dblade(dshield) and not fall behind.
Also go blade vs any sunfire rushing champs. Triforce won't do jack shit for allowing you to duel them unless you're really far ahead.
Agreed on most of those points. Jax matchup is a lot on abusing shorter stun cd and outplaying the stun whenever possible with a well timed Q to a creep.
Although Darius still pretty much hard counters irelia, so there's still that one almost unwinnable matchup.
On October 21 2013 06:18 Lord Tolkien wrote: 1) Lee beats Irelia the first 3-4 levels or so. After that, Irelia beats him (especially after the first back). Never been afraid of Lee as Irelia.
2) Riven's a challenge if you either fight her levels 1-4, or snowball her. If you stay even, you can definitely outduel her after the first/second back (and you pick up armor). Even snowballed, you can beat her with proper itemization. Been trying to figure out whether cloth+5 or Dorans would be better vs Riven (given the tendency for them to start with a damn Red Pot and have more sustain than the Dorans Shield+1 pot can provide).
3) It's hard for me to say that Irelia outlanes Jax between levels 6-11 reliably. Whereas Irelia has a slight advantage pre-6, post-6 it's an somewhat upwards (skill) matchup. You can leverage your sustain and outplay him by watching his E CD and mana bar, but unless you snowball it starts moving into his favor. Again, snowbally lane: if you are able to bully him around early and come up with an item advantage or somesuch, the lane is yours (vice-versa for Jax; he can shut you down so damn hard if he gets ahead).
4) I honestly still go BorK these days. Gives you the ability to duel virtually anyone, and enough sustain to stay in lane (plus Cutlass retains alot of cost-efficiency), and allows you to win lanes even when behind (plenty of times I've been behind in lane, then rapidly retake control of it after completing BorK). These days I tend to go BorK-Tri-tanky items as a build path. Relies on a primary initiator on your team (then again, you should never pick Irelia if you don't have one), but works very well.
Riven play is a blackbox of itemization and skill leveling for people who are good with her.
Haven't played a single Darius since his nerfs. My experience was that the matchup was alright (if very snowbally), and I generally won the lane despite it appearing (in theory) to be a terrible lane (mitigating factors like player skill not included). Again, pretty much only had S2 experience with that matchup, so it's probably pretty antiquated.
On October 21 2013 07:03 Amui wrote: Basically any matchup where you are disadvantaged for more than the first 3-4 levels you should go botrk. triforce is reserved almost entirely for lanes where you can get it first after a dblade(dshield) and not fall behind.
Also go blade vs any sunfire rushing champs. Triforce won't do jack shit for allowing you to duel them unless you're really far ahead.
Agreed on most of those points. Jax matchup is a lot on abusing shorter stun cd and outplaying the stun whenever possible with a well timed Q to a creep.
Although Darius still pretty much hard counters irelia, so there's still that one almost unwinnable matchup.
think irelia is better vs darius than a lot of other melees honestly botrk vs champs you only beat past lvl 3/4 doesn't make much sense. botrk kinda sucks until you finish it, but its good against the really tanky guys. getting 2x dorans blade+armor into trinity is a decent alternative though. Not like having only a phage and 2 dorans is going to be worse than a bilgewater + 2 daggers in a fight
On October 21 2013 06:18 Lord Tolkien wrote: 1) Lee beats Irelia the first 3-4 levels or so. After that, Irelia beats him (especially after the first back). Never been afraid of Lee as Irelia.
2) Riven's a challenge if you either fight her levels 1-4, or snowball her. If you stay even, you can definitely outduel her after the first/second back (and you pick up armor). Even snowballed, you can beat her with proper itemization. Been trying to figure out whether cloth+5 or Dorans would be better vs Riven (given the tendency for them to start with a damn Red Pot and have more sustain than the Dorans Shield+1 pot can provide).
3) It's hard for me to say that Irelia outlanes Jax between levels 6-11 reliably. Whereas Irelia has a slight advantage pre-6, post-6 it's an somewhat upwards (skill) matchup. You can leverage your sustain and outplay him by watching his E CD and mana bar, but unless you snowball it starts moving into his favor. Again, snowbally lane: if you are able to bully him around early and come up with an item advantage or somesuch, the lane is yours (vice-versa for Jax; he can shut you down so damn hard if he gets ahead).
4) I honestly still go BorK these days. Gives you the ability to duel virtually anyone, and enough sustain to stay in lane (plus Cutlass retains alot of cost-efficiency), and allows you to win lanes even when behind (plenty of times I've been behind in lane, then rapidly retake control of it after completing BorK). These days I tend to go BorK-Tri-tanky items as a build path. Relies on a primary initiator on your team (then again, you should never pick Irelia if you don't have one), but works very well.
What Lee's are you meeting? Everytime i see a Lee Sin, i'll never pick Irelia, because that match-up is just a begging to get shutdown. AS reduction, sustain with shield and his ult, makes it near impossible for you to do anything. Idk, maybe i used to play it wrong, but the only times i'd win that lane, would be if he either sucked terribly or i had a successful gank very early so i'd be ahead in experience.
On October 21 2013 07:03 Amui wrote: Basically any matchup where you are disadvantaged for more than the first 3-4 levels you should go botrk. triforce is reserved almost entirely for lanes where you can get it first after a dblade(dshield) and not fall behind.
Also go blade vs any sunfire rushing champs. Triforce won't do jack shit for allowing you to duel them unless you're really far ahead.
Agreed on most of those points. Jax matchup is a lot on abusing shorter stun cd and outplaying the stun whenever possible with a well timed Q to a creep.
Although Darius still pretty much hard counters irelia, so there's still that one almost unwinnable matchup.
think irelia is better vs darius than a lot of other melees honestly botrk vs champs you only beat past lvl 3/4 doesn't make much sense. botrk kinda sucks until you finish it, but its good against the really tanky guys. getting 2x dorans blade+armor into trinity is a decent alternative though. Not like having only a phage and 2 dorans is going to be worse than a bilgewater + 2 daggers in a fight
I think my wording could've been a bit more clear. Blade is for matchups where you lose for a lot of levels. The sustain difference between a phage vs bilge is rather large.
Not too sold on double doran's +armor(assuming it's mroe than just tabi's) +triforce. It feels like it comes out so late in comparison to a blade, and the relative damage difference from blade to triforce against a sunfire+ target feels pretty huge.
What Lee's are you meeting? Everytime i see a Lee Sin, i'll never pick Irelia, because that match-up is just a begging to get shutdown. AS reduction, sustain with shield and his ult, makes it near impossible for you to do anything. Idk, maybe i used to play it wrong, but the only times i'd win that lane, would be if he either sucked terribly or i had a successful gank very early so i'd be ahead in experience.
I don't think it's a matchup you can really win too hard without getting serious help, and you are unlikely to solo kill without being really ahead or him screwing up, but you should be able to farm up. Can be a pretty scary matchup against hydra first lees though because of how much damage can come out along with the ludicrous sustain from W+hydra.
At the same time I don't feel like it's a hard losing matchup either.
On October 21 2013 06:18 Lord Tolkien wrote: 1) Lee beats Irelia the first 3-4 levels or so. After that, Irelia beats him (especially after the first back). Never been afraid of Lee as Irelia.
2) Riven's a challenge if you either fight her levels 1-4, or snowball her. If you stay even, you can definitely outduel her after the first/second back (and you pick up armor). Even snowballed, you can beat her with proper itemization. Been trying to figure out whether cloth+5 or Dorans would be better vs Riven (given the tendency for them to start with a damn Red Pot and have more sustain than the Dorans Shield+1 pot can provide).
3) It's hard for me to say that Irelia outlanes Jax between levels 6-11 reliably. Whereas Irelia has a slight advantage pre-6, post-6 it's an somewhat upwards (skill) matchup. You can leverage your sustain and outplay him by watching his E CD and mana bar, but unless you snowball it starts moving into his favor. Again, snowbally lane: if you are able to bully him around early and come up with an item advantage or somesuch, the lane is yours (vice-versa for Jax; he can shut you down so damn hard if he gets ahead).
4) I honestly still go BorK these days. Gives you the ability to duel virtually anyone, and enough sustain to stay in lane (plus Cutlass retains alot of cost-efficiency), and allows you to win lanes even when behind (plenty of times I've been behind in lane, then rapidly retake control of it after completing BorK). These days I tend to go BorK-Tri-tanky items as a build path. Relies on a primary initiator on your team (then again, you should never pick Irelia if you don't have one), but works very well.
What Lee's are you meeting? Everytime i see a Lee Sin, i'll never pick Irelia, because that match-up is just a begging to get shutdown. AS reduction, sustain with shield and his ult, makes it near impossible for you to do anything. Idk, maybe i used to play it wrong, but the only times i'd win that lane, would be if he either sucked terribly or i had a successful gank very early so i'd be ahead in experience.
yeah but once you get some armour he deals no damage to you and you can at least get some true damage off with E stun+q auto reset. he wins quite a bit early on for sure. maybe irelia isn't the best pick against him because you want to win lanes and its hard to win bcause of leesins ways of getting away but i wouldn't call it a "counterpick". you just pick like nasus against lee huehue.
2x dorans + armour obviously doesnt work against tanky targets. (renek is maybe the exception because he's mostly physical but tends to build tanky cause sunfire+his ult is a lot of dps). Tanky guys normally don't rely purely on burst and physical damage and outdps/sustaining them with botrk is the best. Rushing botrk without armour is risky against people like riven so you want armour anyway, and triforce is a bit better in teamfights if most of the laning phase is done before you finish botrk.
I don't understand the rationale behind thinking botrk > trinity if you're losing early levels. Irelia loses a lot of matchups early levels and in the lanes that you have particularly a lot of trouble early like Riven, you shouldn't even be thinking of cutlass/phage and just be getting armor in your first back. Sustain items aren't going to help you with lanes like that at all.
yeah it really doesnt make sense. Irelia "loses" nearly every lane early on. But you farm so well under tower you don't really "lose" and after level 7 or so is when you start winning. botrk is good against tanky guys and trinity is good everywhere else
Usually Dorans Shield + Tabis is enough armor sustain if I'm having trouble. Then i'll work towards Trinity. If everything is fine in lane then skip t2 boots and go trinity faster.
I do usually always start dshield + pot for lane though.
On October 22 2013 00:32 koreasilver wrote: I don't understand the rationale behind thinking botrk > trinity if you're losing early levels. Irelia loses a lot of matchups early levels and in the lanes that you have particularly a lot of trouble early like Riven, you shouldn't even be thinking of cutlass/phage and just be getting armor in your first back. Sustain items aren't going to help you with lanes like that at all.
While I don't think you should automatically get it if you "lose", it's an extremely potent dueling item if you're building for lane/splitpushing, and as a first damage item, is generally better if you need the extra dueling potential over trinity (which is better in teamfights). BorK allows you to outduel the same opponents as Trinity, but the opposite is not true. BorK and its components are a good first choice vs. Renekton/Shen/Singed (especially given the sustain it gives to survive Shen harass), or low burst tops that put out consistent harass damage (think Kennen), and with the W passive gives you a minor version of an Aatrox turnaround. If the Shen is just throwing Qs at you to whittle you down, a Cutlass is more than enough to keep you in lane against it.
Painting in broad strokes, you should: 1) go for a Trinity if you can afford to in lane (and are looking to participate in teamfights relatively early). 2) go for a BorK if you can't (or can no longer) duel them with Trinity/components (and are looking to stay in lane longer/are against laners whom are weak to BorK). 3) go for resistances/tanky stats if neither will help (Riven and, to a lesser extent, Lee Sin territory).
Personally, I prefer playing as a quasi-splitpusher who both draws pressure top and remains in lane until fairly late, so I have no compunctions going BorK into Trinity (into tanky stats). The dueling potential BorK gives cannot be understated, and it mitigates alot of the defensive itemization people go for against Irelia.
My starts these days tend to look at either flask+4 pots (stay awhile longer for the extra pot), Dshield+1, or cloth+5, depending on the lane I'm up against.
He is correct about Fiora being picked (with a higher winrate) than Irelia, aka. Fiora is more popular and more viable than Irelia.
As someone who plays both champions, wat
Though he's spot on about the Season 4 changes.
Haven't touched irelia in a while. If anything, things just got worse for her since S3(where she already fell out of favor, haven't touched her). I don't think anything is inherently wrong with her kit either(just numbers). She doesn't do damage without damage items(Q/E don't nuke particularly hard even when maxed first, and even then, she'll have zip for followup, renekton, rengar, mundo and even olaf have better sustain, and along with riven have massively better early game pushing, trading and scaling in S4. She can't push without using her ult(ult nerf really hurt there, can't use it to clear and have it up for a teamfight as easily), and she also has mana, despite her skills being fairly low cost so they can push her out of lane simply by outlasting her.
so guys feral flare, jungle irelia maybe a thing now?
i run attack speed quints, take blue/red/wraith/wolves/wight and back for madred's, can get a wriggle's ~6:30 (take first two blue buffs). first item after that is a stinger (for a zephyr later on but the 40% as and 10%cdr are very cost effective), wriggles becomes feral flare at like 13-14mins in an average game. with a stinger you clear jungle like a monster, you have a lot of time in between clears to gank. first big item is botrk, sometimes i get a phage before the cutlass if i want a bit more hp. usually ninja tabi for boots. full build is something like ~ tabi / botrk / feral flare / triforce / frozen heart / zephyr.
whats really cool is that with feral flare, you can always q -> reset on any ranged creep, and with enough stacks you get resets on melee creeps too.
There are too many good Feral Flare junglers that are better than irelia, either because of stronger early game and/or better splitpushing (the main strength of Feral Flare). Those would be namely Yi, Nocturne, Shyvana, Tryndamere, probably Volibear as well. And then you still have competition from Elder Lizard junglers, especially Panth and Kha. I'd dare say it's never optimal to jungle Irelia.
On April 11 2014 15:29 Scip wrote: There are too many good Feral Flare junglers that are better than irelia, either because of stronger early game and/or better splitpushing (the main strength of Feral Flare). Those would be namely Yi, Nocturne, Shyvana, Tryndamere, probably Volibear as well. And then you still have competition from Elder Lizard junglers, especially Panth and Kha. I'd dare say it's never optimal to jungle Irelia.
It's funny because Irelia's kit seems like it would be pretty decent at jungling too, but yeah she's not very good
On April 14 2014 01:30 Duvon wrote: If you can get resets between every auto Q is pretty much AoE though. If. If only for that word.
I think what you mean is that you can i.e clear ranged creeps with 3 fast Q's if they're all low. It has nothing to do with AoE, it's just korean strats yo.
Yes, the intent of the first line was that Q can clear small monsters quickly, while the second line implies that it won't happen when it matter anyway. I blame tired posting.
Onus is on you to outplay. To win, you have to dodge counterstrike with Q(with reset is preferable, but Q CD is better than getting wrecked), and then trade while it's down. Every time his counterstrike is up you cannot have Q on CD, because you'll lose the trade hard if he can just sit on you with counterstrike up. Don't activate hiten style while he has counterstrike available because he can waste half of it, and guarantee the trade win. You need to go for a kill once you hit 6, clearing the wave with ultimate doesn't help you at all because you get outscaled. It's not unwinnable, but it's a very, very hard matchup because if you can't outplay, you will lose lane without jungler help.
It is a winnable matchup even at the pro level, but if you watch how they win it, it's through weaving in and out of the creep wave very effectively to dodge stuns and forcing trades while counterstrike is down.
You need to snowball your lead into early objectives to get advantages. Irelia is stronger than jax in early-midgame fights against squishy targets due to the higher burst.
Counterstrike is an 18 second cooldown, Equilibrium strike is 8 seconds. If you stun first you'll get 2-3 hits with W auto and you can try to reset q on creeps or just tank the stun while running to minimize auto damage. If he activates first you can stun him run if you time it right, it's a 1 second stun at rank 1 but him being away from melee range when he activates means he doesn't get any free damage until he gets it off unlike using it while fighting for 2 full seconds+stun of free damage.
Generally you don't fight when he has his passive stacked as well. Irelia is essentially a burst damage champ with a lot of healing so it's actually pretty effective, you can burst him down really low and then he can't do anything. Jax is an all-in champion but with some good harass if he wins that all-in with his W+3rd ult stack harass etc. He relies a lot on his passive and ult resists to win all-ins while irelia prefers to get the other guy low during that phase and then go in when jax's cds are down.
I can't remember playing it recently but at least with the jax nerfs I'm guessing Irelia has an advantage now.
Irelia does have a noticeable advantage in trades/all-ins pre-6 when Jax's ulti passive is unavailable, even moreso with the nerfs to Jax's base health (very noticeable indeed with how bursty Irelia functionally is). As above, time counterstrike's CD, as that's your window to initiate a trade, but you have excellent bullying potential against him pre-6, so you want to early-push the wave for the level advantage and lane dominance (just watch for jungle, because the followup from Jax will probably ensure a death with a gapclose/stun) and establish your lane from there (and hopefully kill him before/at 6).
You also do have more health sustain, so even "even trades" will slowly win you the lane before the first back. After the first back, depending on Jax's buys, attrition may or may not be viable (if he gets a Cutlass over Phage, which does leave him slightly more squishy for an all-in) and the matchup gets harder if you didn't establish an advantage early.
This remains at its core a skill matchup, though Jax does still outscaling Irelia a fuck-ton once you're like past the midgame and Irelia start falling off. AKA: go big early or go home
On August 10 2014 08:40 Lord Tolkien wrote: go big early or go home
That's probably the best way to think of this matchup. You're stronger early game so long as counterstrike is out of the equation, so you gotta get ahead and stay ahead.
Indeed. If you get ahead, you can hard deny him and probably threaten to kill him at any point in the lane if his counterstrike is down, and thereby lock him out of the game entirely. Both Irelia and Jax are heavily dependent on gold and items.
Jax lategame is overstated and irelias understated somewhat. You can't always get lots of autos off in teamfights and irelia is more of a burst champ and still is effective at bursting squishies it just seems like you got worse because in 5v5's you don't dominate like you do in lane and skirmishes. I wouldn't say jax is much stronger at all until he gets like 3 or 4 items.
I would say his 5v5 isn't siginificantly better at any time, but 1v1 he starts beating you at roughly 2 finished items if he isn't too far behind. Laning should definitly go your way if there isn't too much jungle impact. Just try to engage on him when there is a minion to Q to avoid his stun.
I pick Irelia into Jax sometimes because i know that lane very well. Early and midgame you can outduel him pretty hard even when he lands counterstrike. Just use E on him after he lands it and hits you and activate Hiten Style and you should outtrade him. I tend to rush BotrK nowadays for the sustain
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0s0aJ.jpg)
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