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Cassio's passive is really, really good. It's a big reason for not needing tear/RoA even if you have trouble getting blue. Cassio can burn mana FAST, and without the passive can dump an entire mana bar in seconds. 1-6 you won't have enough mana to sustain your passive, so ignore it, but for the rest of the game it's incredibly helpful. Keep in mind that you will almost never spam a dps rotation into a champion in lane; either they burst you down, or you land Q + 2-3 E's and they have to flash/cc you or die.
Cassio vs Lux: you will scale SO much harder than lux, so there's no reason to play overaggressive and risk letting her get ahead. Start boots3 and dodge/bait her binding, then when her binding is on cd you can zone her for 8-10 secs. This is true for a lot of champs that have skillshot cc's, like Morgana and to a lesser extent Xerath/Brand.
If you are still having trouble after, you should practice more vs skillshot champs. A lot of APs are skill-shot based, and to play mid effectively you need to be able to dodge. Lux's biggest threat is catching you with max-range binding, where you are out of range to trade and she can burst you for most your health at 6 (especially if you have no hp/MR).
Also, don't forget about Abyssal Scepter. If you have a build of sorc, 2 rings, WOTA, and Abyssal, you have 60 mpen(!), spellvamp, and 100+ MR (!), not even counting the team auras. It's an incredibly strong 20-30min build, and no AP can trade with you in lane when you have Negatron and spellvamp.
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After some thinking, I've decided that my skill order is actually wrong in alot of cases. It's pretty amazing I've got to where I am now without actually doing the math and theory on Cass' early skill order. My previous line of thought was that the benifits of an early maxed out E outweighed early points in Q for almost all situations. However, I never really saw the actual difference in dmg/mana effectiveness and after having a few lanes where I had mana problems pre-6 I've tried to assess the benifits of each opener.
What prompted me to look into this closer was reading Reginalds cass guide for a laugh, I saw that he actually maxes Q first at which point I was thinking "WTF?" as I've always championed maxing E. I did then also remember that against certain tanky or passive lanes, that I was actually running out of mana without really pushing them out of lane, and was already looking for solutions.
Note cass' early lane harrassment mana costs are generally more difficult to calculate the exact figures for due to her passive, however we'll ignore the passive for now and just focus on the net cost and dmg of the spells.
Previously my skill order went Q-E-E-W-E-R maxing E then Q then W. My reasoning for this was that it did not matter that E was inferior in dmg and cost, as it has no cooldown provided that you hit the poisons. I did think therefore that it was pretty much THE way to be playing Cass, and have used this skilling order for at least the past 6 months, with alot of success. The advantages were that you would be able to pump out alot more dmg in a short period with E at level 3 and 5 than almost any other caster in the game and I abused this to aggressively win alot of lanes. It also synergised better with revolver than the other skill order, as the more dps you do as cass, the more spellvamp you will be acheiving. It also benifits alot from Cass' passive and is easier to get damage off of than Q (not a skillshot.)
Reginalds standard skill order went Q-E-Q-W-Q-R maxing Q before E. His reasoning was that at lvl 2 of Q, you can kill the caster minion bunch with 2 Qs, being able to push the lane out further to be able to go pressure jungle and other lanes will keeping up in CS. In respect of this guys intelligence he probably also noticed that Q has a way higher dmg/mana efficiency than maxing E.
So how much more efficient is Q to E in terms of damage for mana? At level 2 of E, your spell will be costing 60 base mana for 95 damage (158% or 1.58dmg/mana) At Level 2 of Q you would be spending 45 mana for 115 damage (255% or 2.55 dmg/mana) So you are getting alot more damage per spell for less mana. (These calculations stretch the definition of efficiency so I'm going to name this section damage for mana efficiency ratio. go away physicists and maths dudes baylife)
What this does not help us with in a real game situation, is dps, how fast this damage occurs. I'm going to assume anyone who's made it this far down this goddamned wall of text knows that maxing E gives alot more DPS. Which is advantageous versus weak lanes. It also does not factor in Cassiopeias' passive, which is more effective with maxing E. Considering that at level 5 you will have a mana pool of around 500, if these harrassment chains are far apart and not affected by passive, then you will be running out of mana after 3-5 actual trades. This was a problem if either they were tanky and did not take as much damage as I'd have wanted to, or if they are OP and run on an energy system (looking at you kennen.)
Against these 2 types of lane, I have adopted my new style of play, rather than heavy pressure with E chains.
Skill order - Q-E-Q-W-E/Q-R from there on maxing E. Instead of constantly looking for opportunities to start E chains on the enemy, I would simply hit Qs and cs, backing out of even having to trade using E as over time I will be putting out way more damage for my mana, eliminating my problem of running out.
However I still do differ from regis order, maxing E after level 6, as at this point you should have blue and 2dorans, meaning mana efficiency has pretty much gone out the window and you should be abusing your no cd damage spell. I will still play the Q-E-E opener against weak lanes where I can dominate without problems.
Build is still boots3>2dorans>wota>defence/offence
switching up to boots3>chalice>wota>defence offence in high trade lanes as its fucking op.
Not sure why I wrote this but consider this episode 3 of howard getting bored at work
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If you have blue buff, just keep your passive at max stacks. You'll save mana in the end even if you have to spam Q at open space because ALL your spells are 50% cheaper, so even if you waste half your Q's you're still gaining mana.
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I've never really tried keeping passive up at all times, seems like too much effort for what its worth for me. I'd probly drop the ball at some point anyway.
I was talking mana probs before blue, against energy champs can be a bit of a pain
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On April 26 2012 23:47 InvaderUK wrote:
I've never really tried keeping passive up at all times, seems like too much effort for what its worth for me. I'd probly drop the ball at some point anyway.
I was talking mana probs before blue, against energy champs can be a bit of a pain
Tap gave me this advice the other night when I was playing Cass, and it was like a "wow, why haven't I even thought of this" kind of moment.
It is weird to get used to, but just dropping a Q in the middle of nowhere to keep the stack up seemed fairly practical.
Also, regarding your post about which to max - I've always maxed Q. Longer range poke, less opportunity cost if you miss. It's a very easy skill to spam, and once you figure out the auto attack range of your opponents, it's really easy to get free damage when they try to cs.
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On March 09 2012 03:58 Sabin010 wrote:
In both instances at level 1 I was just getting hit by her orb before getting in range to q. There was no way to trade with out me standing in front of my minions. When I tried that it was root, pop, hello xin, awe I'm dead.
Well that would be your problem. Dodge lucent singularity and the rest is easy. I don't know why people are saying it's a farm lane.. it shouldn't be by default. Cass has a massive advantage- if Lux's misses her skill shots she can't do anything at all for the next 10 seconds. Hit a q during this time and you can knock off half of Lux's health if not get an outright kill. Don't hit a q? Zone her for the next 10 seconds.
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On April 27 2012 00:13 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 23:47 InvaderUK wrote:
I've never really tried keeping passive up at all times, seems like too much effort for what its worth for me. I'd probly drop the ball at some point anyway.
I was talking mana probs before blue, against energy champs can be a bit of a pain Tap gave me this advice the other night when I was playing Cass, and it was like a "wow, why haven't I even thought of this" kind of moment. It is weird to get used to, but just dropping a Q in the middle of nowhere to keep the stack up seemed fairly practical. Also, regarding your post about which to max - I've always maxed Q. Longer range poke, less opportunity cost if you miss. It's a very easy skill to spam, and once you figure out the auto attack range of your opponents, it's really easy to get free damage when they try to cs.
I can see it's use and would probably follow and use it if I wasn't worried about how fast it would advance the risk of arthiritis on my left hand.
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Cass is on sale so I bought her (because she is AP and supposedly god-tier). Then I realized she plays so differently from the other APs (by other APs I mean the ones I usually play, Ahri, LeBlanc, Lux) ... sigh.
Is there a way to NOT smart cast her Q? That smart cast is screwing me up very badly.
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Nope, its just like Karthus. I feel smartcast on E is mandatory too. If you really don't want her, you can ask for a refund on their support (which I think they allow once per account)..
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On April 29 2012 08:14 h3r1n6 wrote:
Nope, its just like Karthus. I feel smartcast on E is mandatory too. If you really don't want her, you can ask for a refund on their support (which I think they allow once per account)..
I did make her E smart cast. That is mandatory, I agree. But that Q has a 3 seconds cooldown and I really do not see why it should be smart cast. Frankly, I would have done better if I could aim it, because in big battles it's pretty hard (for me) to see where my cursor is.
I probably won't refund it... I want to master most APs. But she is going to call more work than I initially thought. I suppose my usual champions all rely on linear skillshot, so Cass's Q is a bit new to me.
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On April 29 2012 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 08:14 h3r1n6 wrote:
Nope, its just like Karthus. I feel smartcast on E is mandatory too. If you really don't want her, you can ask for a refund on their support (which I think they allow once per account).. I probably won't refund it... I want to master most APs. But she is going to call more work than I initially thought.
Honestly, she's really underplayed for how strong she is in lane. For how strong she is out side of lane phase. For all strong she is at all points of the game. She really doesn't have a weakpoint. Yet for a long time she was considered completely terrible. Granted, she has received buffs several times since her release but I don't think it was her buffs that made her so strong, I think it was the fact that people sat down and forced themselves to learn her.
So yeah, she's a pretty hard champion to play. Even numerous pros can't play her that well (Alex Ich is probably the prime example, although jiji's Cass while passable in solo queue isn't that impressive for tournament play). If you want to master all APs I'd probably just tell you not to (since fucking no one has mastered every AP lol).
Regardless, there are lots of AP mids out there. Skipping on one or two because you just don't "get" them or because the investment might not be worth it is nothing to be ashamed of. You can always pick up another couple of APs and come back to Cass later.
edit:
Just saying that I wouldn't burn yourself out trying to play Cass. If you don't have fun playing her then don't force yourself to learn her.
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On April 29 2012 10:46 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:On April 29 2012 08:14 h3r1n6 wrote:
Nope, its just like Karthus. I feel smartcast on E is mandatory too. If you really don't want her, you can ask for a refund on their support (which I think they allow once per account).. I probably won't refund it... I want to master most APs. But she is going to call more work than I initially thought. Honestly, she's really underplayed for how strong she is in lane. For how strong she is out side of lane phase. For all strong she is at all points of the game. She really doesn't have a weakpoint. Yet for a long time she was considered completely terrible. Granted, she has received buffs several times since her release but I don't think it was her buffs that made her so strong, I think it was the fact that people sat down and forced themselves to learn her. So yeah, she's a pretty hard champion to play. Even numerous pros can't play her that well (Alex Ich is probably the prime example, although jiji's Cass while passable in solo queue isn't that impressive for tournament play). If you want to master all APs I'd probably just tell you not to (since fucking no one has mastered every AP lol). Regardless, there are lots of AP mids out there. Skipping on one or two because you just don't "get" them or because the investment might not be worth it is nothing to be ashamed of. You can always pick up another couple of APs and come back to Cass later. edit: Just saying that I wouldn't burn yourself out trying to play Cass. If you don't have fun playing her then don't force yourself to learn her.
Nah I don't need to be able to play like a pro (not realistic). I just want to be able to play reasonably well for an amateur - to me, that means roughly top 5-15% percentile in terms of "skills" (obviously this measurement is biased, but it's usually how I go about it).
Anyways, my current goal is to learn Cass and (once I get him) Rumble. Rumble is going to be another challenge for me because he is going to be solo top (I almost never play that lane).
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On April 29 2012 11:04 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 10:46 overt wrote:On April 29 2012 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:On April 29 2012 08:14 h3r1n6 wrote:
Nope, its just like Karthus. I feel smartcast on E is mandatory too. If you really don't want her, you can ask for a refund on their support (which I think they allow once per account).. I probably won't refund it... I want to master most APs. But she is going to call more work than I initially thought. Honestly, she's really underplayed for how strong she is in lane. For how strong she is out side of lane phase. For all strong she is at all points of the game. She really doesn't have a weakpoint. Yet for a long time she was considered completely terrible. Granted, she has received buffs several times since her release but I don't think it was her buffs that made her so strong, I think it was the fact that people sat down and forced themselves to learn her. So yeah, she's a pretty hard champion to play. Even numerous pros can't play her that well (Alex Ich is probably the prime example, although jiji's Cass while passable in solo queue isn't that impressive for tournament play). If you want to master all APs I'd probably just tell you not to (since fucking no one has mastered every AP lol). Regardless, there are lots of AP mids out there. Skipping on one or two because you just don't "get" them or because the investment might not be worth it is nothing to be ashamed of. You can always pick up another couple of APs and come back to Cass later. edit: Just saying that I wouldn't burn yourself out trying to play Cass. If you don't have fun playing her then don't force yourself to learn her. Nah I don't need to be able to play like a pro (not realistic). I just want to be able to play reasonably well for an amateur - to me, that means roughly top 5-15% percentile in terms of "skills" (obviously this measurement is biased, but it's usually how I go about it). Anyways, my current goal is to learn Cass and (once I get him) Rumble. Rumble is going to be another challenge for me because he is going to be solo top (I almost never play that lane).
iirc, Rumble loses mid to practically every common mid. Biggest reason he gets run top is because of how bad his mid lane is. But if you get it to work more power to you man.
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On April 29 2012 11:58 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 11:04 Sufficiency wrote:On April 29 2012 10:46 overt wrote:On April 29 2012 08:18 Sufficiency wrote:On April 29 2012 08:14 h3r1n6 wrote:
Nope, its just like Karthus. I feel smartcast on E is mandatory too. If you really don't want her, you can ask for a refund on their support (which I think they allow once per account).. I probably won't refund it... I want to master most APs. But she is going to call more work than I initially thought. Honestly, she's really underplayed for how strong she is in lane. For how strong she is out side of lane phase. For all strong she is at all points of the game. She really doesn't have a weakpoint. Yet for a long time she was considered completely terrible. Granted, she has received buffs several times since her release but I don't think it was her buffs that made her so strong, I think it was the fact that people sat down and forced themselves to learn her. So yeah, she's a pretty hard champion to play. Even numerous pros can't play her that well (Alex Ich is probably the prime example, although jiji's Cass while passable in solo queue isn't that impressive for tournament play). If you want to master all APs I'd probably just tell you not to (since fucking no one has mastered every AP lol). Regardless, there are lots of AP mids out there. Skipping on one or two because you just don't "get" them or because the investment might not be worth it is nothing to be ashamed of. You can always pick up another couple of APs and come back to Cass later. edit: Just saying that I wouldn't burn yourself out trying to play Cass. If you don't have fun playing her then don't force yourself to learn her. Nah I don't need to be able to play like a pro (not realistic). I just want to be able to play reasonably well for an amateur - to me, that means roughly top 5-15% percentile in terms of "skills" (obviously this measurement is biased, but it's usually how I go about it). Anyways, my current goal is to learn Cass and (once I get him) Rumble. Rumble is going to be another challenge for me because he is going to be solo top (I almost never play that lane). iirc, Rumble loses mid to practically every common mid. Biggest reason he gets run top is because of how bad his mid lane is. But if you get it to work more power to you man.
Yes but as far as I know, he is actually pretty good for solo top. So far I only play solomid and I want to slightly diversity the positions I can play in case it is demanded. Since Rumble is AP, there will be minimal rune investments from my part.
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I know I'm not supposed to bump old shit, but I have decided to learn Mid a bit better. I'm already pretty good at CS (even when my team loses, I am ahead in CS or winning my lane 80-90% of the time... somehow), but I feel like I don't roam enough after pushing lane, as I fear the jungler (my primary role), and need to control myself a bit better. I'm not used to staying in the back and blowing my load and running. =p
But my main question is with Cass as I have (probably mistakenly) chosen her for the beginning of my re-learning. This information seems dated, so I'm not even sure if it's accurate or not. So, a few questions and a problem for her:
1) If there some new updated build? I usually start Boots3pot > 2x Doran's > Revolver into WotA > Deathcap > Ralia's > defensive stuff
2) How about masteries and runes? I usually run 21/x/9 on my AP Mid emphasizing Mana over MS in the utilities, and for Runes I just need input on the Quints: I use 1 MPen and 2 MS usually, as the 1 MPen gives me 30 MPen with Sorc's Boots, enough for True Damage on most Supports and offensively-built mages in mid (or so I've read). But, eh, I wanna get better, so I need the best info.
Problem) Lux. Goddamn it. I swear, even when that damn stun is dodged, it still hits me. And then range + radius on her Slow is crazy. And super fast Laser cooldown.. =/ Should I just try to force trades with her regardless because Cass supposedly outscales her, or what? She just seems to beat me every goddamn time (jungle Eve doesn't help either).
Any help would be sexy.
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As far as Lux is concerned, you can easily punish her if she tries to proc her passive once she hits you with a spell. This means that her damage is actually not that great against you. After level 6, she simply cannot do this because you can press R then kill her. The rest is just dodging her E as much as possible and push the lane. I don't think it's a terribly difficult matchup for Cassiopeia (then again, Cassiopeia has no bad matchups except maybe Ahri and Anivia... well, until Zyra comes out anyway).
I am not sure about roaming though. It feels to me that Cass's roam is not that great.... at least not as good as, say, Ahri's... because of how her ultimate works. I personally think it's enough to just steal wraiths or help jungler to counterjungle or arrive early in dragon fights.
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Lux vs Cassio is mostly just hitting and dodging skillshots. Lux has fairly long cooldowns, so cassio will win a straight up fight unless Lux is really fed. If Luxs snare is on cooldown, you can freely move in, other than that if you move at her, she will have an easy time hitting the snare, so watch out for that.
OP seems pretty outdated. I use mpren reds, flat mana regen yellows, flat mr blues and flat AP quints on cassio. She already gets a ms buff from hitting Q. The AP quints just help you more in lane, especially since her ratios are pretty good and the spells are spammable.
Build wise you want to be as tanky as you need to be, depending on the enemy teamcomp and the flow of the game. Deathcap is good, but not always feasible and sometimes you just want more life and resistances. You shouldn't have one set build, just get items like Abyssal, Rylais, Zhonyas depending on who is strong on the enemy team.
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On July 25 2012 02:23 h3r1n6 wrote:
1) Lux vs Cassio is mostly just hitting and dodging skillshots. Lux has fairly long cooldowns, so cassio will win a straight up fight unless Lux is really fed. If Luxs snare is on cooldown, you can freely move in, other than that if you move at her, she will have an easy time hitting the snare, so watch out for that.
2) OP seems pretty outdated. I use mpren reds, flat mana regen yellows, flat mr blues and flat AP quints on cassio. She already gets a ms buff from hitting Q. The AP quints just help you more in lane, especially since her ratios are pretty good and the spells are spammable.
3) Build wise you want to be as tanky as you need to be, depending on the enemy teamcomp and the flow of the game. Deathcap is good, but not always feasible and sometimes you just want more life and resistances. You shouldn't have one set build, just get items like Abyssal, Rylais, Zhonyas depending on who is strong on the enemy team.
1) Yeah, I noticed that. But what about her giant Slow ball? (You can clearly tell I play Lux T.T) Seems like all her spells are designed to keep people away, and it really pisses me off.
2) I'll give these Runes a shot tonight when I load up.
3) Yeah, that's what I generally do as Jungler and Support - build to the game. I'm just trying to get more comfortable as Mid in general and I like to have a general item set to get.
The problem is just me. When I play Cass Mid, I'm outside of my comfort zone, and just make a ton of mistakes. My most common one is doing my combo incorrectly during engagements (instead of QE(EE), I often just spam EWQ, which is an instaloss), which just snowballs into more mistakes. But on games when I do my combo and kite properly, I just dominate entire teams if they decide to chase me.
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On July 25 2012 11:07 VashTS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 02:23 h3r1n6 wrote:
1) Lux vs Cassio is mostly just hitting and dodging skillshots. Lux has fairly long cooldowns, so cassio will win a straight up fight unless Lux is really fed. If Luxs snare is on cooldown, you can freely move in, other than that if you move at her, she will have an easy time hitting the snare, so watch out for that.
2) OP seems pretty outdated. I use mpren reds, flat mana regen yellows, flat mr blues and flat AP quints on cassio. She already gets a ms buff from hitting Q. The AP quints just help you more in lane, especially since her ratios are pretty good and the spells are spammable.
3) Build wise you want to be as tanky as you need to be, depending on the enemy teamcomp and the flow of the game. Deathcap is good, but not always feasible and sometimes you just want more life and resistances. You shouldn't have one set build, just get items like Abyssal, Rylais, Zhonyas depending on who is strong on the enemy team. 1) Yeah, I noticed that. But what about her giant Slow ball? (You can clearly tell I play Lux T.T) Seems like all her spells are designed to keep people away, and it really pisses me off. 2) I'll give these Runes a shot tonight when I load up. 3) Yeah, that's what I generally do as Jungler and Support - build to the game. I'm just trying to get more comfortable as Mid in general and I like to have a general item set to get. The problem is just me. When I play Cass Mid, I'm outside of my comfort zone, and just make a ton of mistakes. My most common one is doing my combo incorrectly during engagements (instead of QE(EE), I often just spam EWQ, which is an instaloss), which just snowballs into more mistakes. But on games when I do my combo and kite properly, I just dominate entire teams if they decide to chase me.
Lux is designed to fight at a long range. Laning against Lux is comes down completely on whether or not you can dodge her skills and if she can hit you with them.
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just played a couple games of cass bot. its pretty funny dominating the other lane. found out that soraka isnt even needed for the support role XD
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EPT
