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On April 20 2013 10:20 Ghost-z wrote:I've noticed many people suggesting Liandry's as a core item on Cassiopeia but recently I've become skeptical about the item for her. Yes it has good synergies with Rylai's which is an item that almost every Cass player will build but the 3 second DoT damage does not stack, only refreshes. So after looking into the item here's what I found. Hope it helps. 1) It does %current HP damage, NOT %max HP. It gets weaker as the fights drag on longer. 2) It deals DoT damage over 3 seconds and it does NOT stack. Hitting another spell only refreshes the duration. 3) Cassiopeia wants to hit spells in rapid fire succession. Which means 3-4 spells during the 3 second DoT. 1020 gold is tied up in the value of Liandry's passive and Mpen. The combine cost is 980 which means you are essentially just buying the passive DoT since Guise already gives you Mpen. That 980 gold could instead be ~45 AP. Typical 3 second burst is a Q>E>E>E Liandry's from this combo gets you 6 seconds of DoT from Liandry's for your gold = 12% current HP 47 AP from this combo gets you 36+25+25+25 = 111 damage. 12% HP = 111 when your opponent has at least 925 HP (100-0 break even @ 1850) But because it is %current HP damage you're opponent will need much more than 925 HP because the DoT decreases as you continue to deal more spell damage. This also assumes you miss your 2nd Q. If you continue to chain your combos on an enemy the Liandry's DoT becomes less and less valuable. Typical 6 second burst is a Q>E>E>E - Q>E>E>E Liandry's from this combo gets you 9 seconds of DoT from Liandry's for your gold = 18% current HP 47 AP from this combo gets you 36+25+25+25+36+25+25+25 = 222 damage. 18% HP = 222 when your opponent has at least 1233 HP (100-0 break even @ 2466) Notice this damage assumes the target is not movement impaired. It also does not include bonuses from masteries or deathcap. Also the DoT becomes more effective when you are forced to switch targets in team fights and when multiple people get hit by Cass' W or Ult. Conclusion: Liandry's excels at burning down health on high HP targets and keeps Cassiopeia's damage higher when dealing AoE and constantly switching targets in team fights. However it is not very good at killing opponents 1v1 and almost needs the increased damage from CC to be cost effective. Haunting Guise is still a good item but I suggest never rushing Liandry's and only building it after Rylais. TL:DR = Get Liandry's only AFTER building Rylais!http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Liandry's_Torment
Except Liandries turns your level 1 w from laughable to a deathzone.
Thats pretty much why you get it first.
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Meh, W is good for zoning and sieging, but really in a teamfight you're gonna pump much more from Q and E spam than from a single W (especially since people don't have that much HP when you rush Liandry's anyway), while Rylai's slow allows you to kite much more efficiently, and with 200 more HP which is a lot considering Cass' pitiful HP pool.
You should use your W either to zone enemies or to ensure a poison DoT on an enemy with a mobility spell (Akali, Jax, Xin, anybody with a gapcloser really) so you're not suddenly powerless if they avoid your Q, during teamfights, not try to put some Liandry's debuff.
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Your level W is already a deathzone if people are derping around in it, because it's like HI PLEASE SPAM TWIN FANGS ON ME AND MELT MY FACE.
Nobody derps around in it, you're often putting it on yourself to guarantee poison on gapclosing melees and such.
Haunting guise is pretty good on her, I see little advantage of getting the Liandry until you already have multiple core items.
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I thought the reasons to get Liandry's on her are to kill objectives much faster and to make Q poke stronger. It's not gonna help much to 100-0 someone. But the Q dot keeps the Liandry's dot running for 6 seconds, and Cassio is not going to go in on every Q she hits.
Rylais is probably more important most of the time anyway.
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I don't play League anymore, but I sure as heck did play Cassiopeia, and something worthy of note mechanics-wise for the Liandry's discussion is that LoL DoTs apply (applied?) their first tick of damage on impact / refresh, meaning that you'll likely be applying the DoT at a rate that exceeds once per second. Considering that Cassiopiea hits bitches with spells like an angry gangster with a tommygun, it seems like a good item pickup.
So a DoT (such as her q!) apply the actual damage of their ticks at 0 seconds, 1 second, and 2 seconds... so if you could re-apply her q at 2.01 seconds, you'd effectively do the same amount of damage, but quicker than if you (like a good cassiopeia player) had no cooldown reduction and only reapplied Q late into the 3rd second of the duration.
If it reapplies leandry's per damage tick of Q or W it actually hurts my face at how good it should be. Even if it only applies Liandry's on contact with the spells, it should still be a really fucking solid item choice.
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Liandry's doesn't, it only starts 0.5s after the first damage tick, which is why is wasn't as huge (esp. for using such a good item as haunting guise as component) since everything ticking every half-second or faster basically reset it until the last tick. They changed it to only refresh the duration, not the delay, a few patches later, so to keep the DoT going you only need to hit a spell ~3s after the last tick from the previous one (ie cast if it was a nuke).
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New buffs, Cass' E now counts as a single target damage spell. Hello full Rylai's slow and full spell vamp on revolver!
Tear, Boots, Spirit of Wraith, Rylais, Lyandries seems to be core build with you upgrading to Archangels and Furor boots enchantment late game. Time to break out my cassiopiea and practice again because I suck with her but she is fun to play.
So what are peoples opinions on what the build order should look like? Rushing Rylais or Spirit Wraith seems like a must now that she gains the full benefits from the items. Boots 2 may not be as necessary with the increased kiting from Rylais but with furor enchantment her chasing potential is just silly. Flat Mpen is always better early but I believe its worth delaying HG until 3rd or 4th item and immediately upgrading it to Liandrys.
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I guess going E>Q>W with tear>revolver>rylai is gonna be the new thing...if muramana still did magical dmg, that shit would be OP.
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I hadn't thought of skills, I have always maxed Q first and that's what 90% of guides recommend but I guess E max first is optimal now. How fast can she clear waves with only 1-2 points in Q?
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Versus non-push champs, 1 or 2 points in Q is usually enough to keep the wave back with the help of your W. If it's a pushy/farm champion or someone that has a better trade than you, then Q max is better.
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Honestly I think Q max is still better than E.
Q is considerably better poke and it much easier on your mana than maxing E. If you max E you're gonna go oom extremely fast even with your passive just trying to poke and trade.
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Low ranks of Q can basically be spammed for almost no mana to keep your passive stacked up, it's definitely possible to use low ranks of Q and max E. You can also poke with "just E" though beware its shorter range - you're basically turning yourself into Ryze, so I don't see it working well except perhaps against highly mobile opponents with mediocre push (for example, Kassadin?)
In those situations - where you're vs. Melee/Mobility - come to think of it, nearly any melee (they have to go onto you to significantly hurt you, opening them up to jumping into a Miasma cloud for Espam) could be quite vulnerable to E max.
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I think it is situational. Maxing q or e is find depending on the matchup
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Spellvamp previously already worked as single-target on Cass' E... it's only Rylai (already core dammit, it's only stronger now) and Furor Boots (and I'm not even sure of that).
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
So I am thinking about playing Cass when I get home but have always sucked with her.
Reading the last bit of this thread it looks like tear, spectral wraith, sorc/mercs, and rylais are core. Then as the game goes on look for a Zhonas/Dcap/Abyssal/Void?
And the guide says no points until 13, are people still doing that? QEQEQR R>Q>E>W?
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I think more than any other caster, what I build on Cass varies wildly depending on whom I'm playing against and the conditions of the game. I do like getting tear first if possible, but a lot of the time it simply isn't. When going against Ryze or Akali I usually go giant's belt->abyssal->tear (get tear sooner if there's enough breathing room)->Rylai's. because if you survive their burst you're going to absolutely maul them with your sustained damage. In easier matchups, I tend to get tear/blasting wand first. Spectral wraith is an interesting option, I'll have to try that sometime (never really occurred to me to be honest). I think WoTA is still underrated and makes sense in a lot of team comps and Cass is someone who benefits from it a lot though.
Final build for me is usually something like sorc shoes/Rylai's/Abyssal's/Liandry's/Deathcap/Seraph's. I'm not a huge fan of Zhonya's on Cass but sometimes it feels necessary. Getting randuin's makes more sense sometimes (or a GA).
Skill order on Cass is largely dependent on the game. I tend to go QEEQER (Overall skill order tends to be R>Q>E>W, but flip flop Q and E at times), maybe get a point in W before the third point in E depending on the matchup (if your opponent can reposition themselves extremely easily, W is practically mandatory pre-6, so you can quickly lay it down once they reposition and then wail on them with your E. Against someone like Fizz you're really playing with fire if you don't get W relatively early, for example). At any rate, I think not getting any points in W until 13 is probably a mistake, because it's a quick way to get off lots of E's if you miss with your Q. Or if they try to all in you with an unexpected flash.
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Does anyone here have any experience running ms quints with 9/0/21 masteries on cassiopeia? Is it match up dependant? Vs an easy matchup would you rather just run AP quints and 21/0/9 for the kill? Is the ms utility as good as some say? If you do run ms quints with 9/0/21 masteries what seals/glyphs do you run?
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I would rather have the normal AP page w/o MS quints when playing cass. Going overkill on MS that early will make your harass tickle for the first few levels, and by the time you hit level 6, the MS is barely noticable with boots. She's the lane bully in 90% of her matchups, so there's no reason to give that up for extra MS. Maybe if you wanted to do some level 3 cheese or something leveling QEE would I consider going that tree, but I wouldn't take that into a serious game.
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On October 20 2013 23:00 ReachTheSky wrote:
Does anyone here have any experience running ms quints with 9/0/21 masteries on cassiopeia? Is it match up dependant? Vs an easy matchup would you rather just run AP quints and 21/0/9 for the kill? Is the ms utility as good as some say? If you do run ms quints with 9/0/21 masteries what seals/glyphs do you run?
I feel like if your hitting your Q's, you dont need it, and if you are not, it won't help you with it.
Might make kiting easier, but anything she can kite with just movespeed she can kite without MS quints, where things that gapclose, which are the things are suck to play against as cass, arn't really affected.
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I main cass in plat but I have played lots of games on friends account in dimaond MR.
Recently I have been doing chalice into rylias into horuglass.
Maxing R>E>Q>W
Makes you tanky and you still do shittons of damage.
Throw in LT and DC then Magic pen Rod. You can sell chalice or fuck boots.
Good full build is.
Boots pen / Rylias / LT / DC / Pen rod / (defense or mana item)
To be honest Cass is more about mechanics then what your build is.
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EPT
