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On February 28 2012 04:26 Silidons wrote:
Um for phoenix jungle scepter is badass as fuck. I use Speed Reds, Armor Yellows, MR Blues, and Speed Quints. Starting with only Scepter, I can jungle for the entire rest of the game without going back if I wanted to. Keep E @lv1 till the end (I get it @lv4), R#1 W#2 Q#3 E#4 in priority.
Wriggles > Mercs > Wits > then normally a Banshee.
Last game I went 8/1/x with him and that's all I could get because they ff'd @ 20.
Welcome to any opening on phoenix udyr. I frequently start boots and stay out until 10 minutes no problem. boots is better actually, as it improves your clear speed and udyr needs the movespeed stupid badly for ganking.
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On February 28 2012 04:26 Silidons wrote:
Um for phoenix jungle scepter is badass as fuck. I use Speed Reds, Armor Yellows, MR Blues, and Speed Quints. Starting with only Scepter, I can jungle for the entire rest of the game without going back if I wanted to. Keep E @lv1 till the end (I get it @lv4), R#1 W#2 Q#3 E#4 in priority.
Wriggles > Mercs > Wits > then normally a Banshee.
Last game I went 8/1/x with him and that's all I could get because they ff'd @ 20.
Just because you beat people with a bad build does not make your build good.
Pheonix udyr does not need vamp cepter. I never drop below 75% health by just using pheonix and turtle interchangably when jungling creeps. And I get to open boots, which means I have many more options than you do.
Not to mention nothing that wriggles has is of any interest to pheonix udyr apart from armor. And you can just buy a chain vest and save 900 gold if you want that.
Boots+hog (or philo if you are slayer) and you clear every camp taking practically no damage. Get a recurve and you DONT take damage.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 28 2012 01:11 Two_DoWn wrote:
The major problem I have with the "Just make jungle support" line of thought is that then you end up with 2 useless characters late game instead of just 1.
Supports aren't useless lategame. Playing carry champs as supports is what makes them useless because they need farm to function.
That said, picking Udyr as a support is pretty bad, since the only "supportive" part of his kit is Bear Stance, and that's not nearly compelling enough.
On February 28 2012 01:11 Two_DoWn wrote:
It doesnt take all that much to make a jungle a FORCE late game. Just someone who knows what they are doing when it comes to farming and spending gold efficiently.
If you decide to have a 4th carry in the jungle instead of a 2nd support, that 4th carry doesn't suddenly get to have carry-level farm for free without anyone else sacrificing any.
There is a finite amount of farm in the game. In a tournament game, I'd say pretty much all of it is going to go somewhere, and it's not going to get wasted. So any gold that goes on the jungler has to come off someone else--in this case the laners. So what it takes to get a jungler carry level farm is taking carry-level farm off a laner. Which is fine, but you can't chalk it up to the jungler's sole effort in that regard.
Of course, this doesn't apply to solo queue, because people in solo queue suck at farming efficiently, and in carrying a solo queue game, you absolutely should be taking farm off your laners.
On February 28 2012 01:11 Two_DoWn wrote:
Especially when you consider that a ward is 3 creeps for any laner but 2 full camps for the jungle, it just makes more sense to me for the lane to buy the wards they need. Sure jungle can help, but just look at what happens to TOO ever time the game lasts longer than 20 minutes. He turns into 100% dead weight.
Again, TOO ends up useless on carry jungles because TSM puts him on carry jungles without picking team-comps that can support him getting farm. If they pick him Udyr or Shyvana--and then pick 3 lane carries that need MORE farm, then where the hell is he going to get farm to materialize out of?
Like, people are forgetting that back when Chauster was playing AD carry, CLG had this big problem where Chauster would end up underfarmed--and it would be repeatedly pointed out that Chauster was ahead or even on CS through the laning phase, and would really start to fall off past laning when Saint would start to clean up a lot of lane farm from pushed lanes. A jungler getting farmed isn't solely the product of him farming, but also a product of how much comparative farm he's allocated compared to the laners.
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That's not true. If you farm jungle more you'll get farmed, and if you pay attention to when laners back and take their farm you get farm from that. A lot of farm you take from spending more time farming will just be free.
"farming" junglers can push lane faster which gives you more option to push without screwing lane control over.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 28 2012 04:56 Slayer91 wrote:
That's not true. If you farm jungle more you'll get farmed, and if you pay attention to when laners back and take their farm you get farm from that. A lot of farm you take from spending more time farming will just be free.
And that adds up to how much? Certainly not the difference between TOO finishing a game with Wriggle's, 2xDBlade, Phage and Saint finishing a game with Wriggles, Mogs, Atmas.
Laning phase makes up maybe 1/3 of the game. The vast majority of the farm and relevant farm allocation in the game comes from post-laning phase.
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On February 28 2012 04:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:56 Slayer91 wrote:
That's not true. If you farm jungle more you'll get farmed, and if you pay attention to when laners back and take their farm you get farm from that. A lot of farm you take from spending more time farming will just be free. And that adds up to how much? Laning phase makes up maybe 1/3 of the game. The vast majority of the farm and relevant farm allocation in the game comes from post-laning phase.
early game farm determines how farmed you are for midgame fights, I dunno, seems silly to say that it's irrelevant because it's proportionally not as big lategame if the game goes like 35+ minutes.
udyr's jungle farm is so absurd, still blows my mind that he can out cs solo lanes even at like 1900-2000 level just by farming the jungle with boots.
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On February 28 2012 04:50 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 01:11 Two_DoWn wrote:
The major problem I have with the "Just make jungle support" line of thought is that then you end up with 2 useless characters late game instead of just 1. Supports aren't useless lategame. Playing carry champs as supports is what makes them useless because they need farm to function. That said, picking Udyr as a support is pretty bad, since the only "supportive" part of his kit is Bear Stance, and that's not nearly compelling enough. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 01:11 Two_DoWn wrote:
It doesnt take all that much to make a jungle a FORCE late game. Just someone who knows what they are doing when it comes to farming and spending gold efficiently. There is a finite amount of farm in the game. In a high-level game, I'd say pretty much all of it is going to go somewhere, and it's not going to get wasted. So any gold that goes on the jungler has to come off someone else--in this case the laners. So what it takes to get a jungler carry level farm is taking carry-level farm off a laner. Which is fine, but you can't chalk it up to the jungler's sole effort in that regard. Of course, this doesn't apply to solo queue, because people in solo queue suck at farming efficiently, and in carrying a solo queue game, you absolutely should be taking farm off your laners. Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 01:11 Two_DoWn wrote:
Especially when you consider that a ward is 3 creeps for any laner but 2 full camps for the jungle, it just makes more sense to me for the lane to buy the wards they need. Sure jungle can help, but just look at what happens to TOO ever time the game lasts longer than 20 minutes. He turns into 100% dead weight. Again, TOO ends up useless on carry jungles because TSM puts him on carry jungles without picking team-comps that can support him getting farm. If they pick him Udyr or Shyvana--and then pick 3 lane carries that need MORE farm, then where the hell is he going to get farm to materialize out of? Like, people are forgetting that back when Chauster was playing AD carry, CLG had this big problem where Chauster would end up underfarmed--and it would be repeatedly pointed out that Chauster was ahead or even on CS through the laning phase, and would really start to fall off past laning when Saint would start to clean up a lot of lane farm from pushed lanes. A jungler getting farmed isn't solely the product of him farming, but also a product of how much comparative farm he's allocated compared to the laners.
I think you underestimate the farm in the jungle and I overestimate it. The truth is probably somewhere in between. There is enough farm in the jungle alone for you to become a complete carry. And it doesnt even come at the price of never ganking. You just need to be smart about when you gank, when you back, the route you take through jungle, ect. But there is enough farm there. Sure, it is easier to hit that point in solo q than competitive play because of the level of skill in farming, but there are plenty of examples of a jungle hitting carry status in competivie play without jacking a tremendous amount of lane farm.
Although I will dissagree with CLG. By my recolection Chauster was almost always behind in cs during laning, and I have no recolection whatsoever of people blaming SV grabbing creeps for that, especially since HS is usually the one who grabs every available creep wave. Unfortunatly there isnt a good way to go back in check, but honestly by my memory chauster wanst underfarmed because of late game cs, in fact he was usually one of the better people AT getting farmed up off of random waves. IIRC chausters laning was terrible but he caught up late game by positioning well and staying alive.
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On February 28 2012 04:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:56 Slayer91 wrote:
That's not true. If you farm jungle more you'll get farmed, and if you pay attention to when laners back and take their farm you get farm from that. A lot of farm you take from spending more time farming will just be free. And that adds up to how much? Certainly not the difference between TOO finishing a game with Wriggle's, 2xDBlade, Phage and Saint finishing a game with Wriggles, Mogs, Atmas. Laning phase makes up maybe 1/3 of the game. The vast majority of the farm and relevant farm allocation in the game comes from post-laning phase.
I just flat dissagree with this. Early game farm IS the reason they are so different. The same way backing in lane and being able to afford a dorans blade or not just by csing well is the difference between farming well the rest of the game or getting crushed. If you can farm well early you snowball INCREDIBLY hard. Faster madreds, faster wriggles, more damage in ganks, more control over the map. Jungling is ALL about farming early and riding that.
I dont know why you are so attached to this idea that late game farming is so game breaking. Honestly, do you really think SAINT gets any of that over Dlift or HSGG? No. But what he IS is so super efficeint during laning that he is able to maximize lane farm, jungle, and ganks to the point that he is on par with the solo lanes going into midgame where he is able to survive fights. Thats where you pick up the majority of your gold late game. Teamfights and the immediate aftermath.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 28 2012 05:01 Two_DoWn wrote:
I think you underestimate the farm in the jungle and I overestimate it. The truth is probably somewhere in between. There is enough farm in the jungle alone for you to become a complete carry. And it doesnt even come at the price of never ganking. You just need to be smart about when you gank, when you back, the route you take through jungle, ect. But there is enough farm there. Sure, it is easier to hit that point in solo q than competitive play because of the level of skill in farming, but there are plenty of examples of a jungle hitting carry status in competivie play without jacking a tremendous amount of lane farm.
The problem with this statement is that we're not really talking concretely about a time-frame here. Past the laning phase, pretty much all the farm that ever goes on you could be on someone else. Wraiths are farm-able from the start of the game for mid, and once top and bot outers go down, someone farming those sidelanes can grab wolves/wraiths without losing any CS. Sure you CAN get carry items, but within a team-comp where you have 3 really farm-dependent laners, is it worthwhile for you to build Triforce, when that 4k gold could be IE/DCap like 1000 gold sooner on your AP/AD carry?
I think whether your jungle should be picked as a support is something that's highly sensitive to team composition. I also will admit that picking a carry jungler when you needed a support jungler and playing him as a carry is probably than trying to shoehorn him into being a support. Relevant to this thread--playing Udyr supportively pretty much just sucks and is a waste of everything he's good at.
On February 28 2012 05:07 Two_DoWn wrote:
I just flat dissagree with this. Early game farm IS the reason they are so different. The same way backing in lane and being able to afford a dorans blade or not just by csing well is the difference between farming well the rest of the game or getting crushed. If you can farm well early you snowball INCREDIBLY hard. Faster madreds, faster wriggles, more damage in ganks, more control over the map. Jungling is ALL about farming early and riding that.
I dont know why you are so attached to this idea that late game farming is so game breaking. Honestly, do you really think SAINT gets any of that over Dlift or HSGG? No. But what he IS is so super efficeint during laning that he is able to maximize lane farm, jungle, and ganks to the point that he is on par with the solo lanes going into midgame where he is able to survive fights. Thats where you pick up the majority of your gold late game. Teamfights and the immediate aftermath.
Later farming is relevant in the sense that if you know you're going to see less farm past the laning phase, it affects how you plan your item progression.
Supportive jungles should obviously still be farming the laning phase as effectively as possible. But if they know that their item progression is going to slow down drastically after that, it should affect the way they choose to build items.
EDIT: Ugh, I had something in mind that I was trying to say responding to your original post, and I ended up being super long-winded and incoherent about it, and now I just ended up arguing with people and being super incoherent about that too.
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Laning phase makes up for over 1/2 the farm though. People farm less and let waves push later because having 1 member less is a bigger deal. People tend to get ~150-200 cs in laning phase typically, and jungle wants at least over 100 cs to stay relevant.
Also, the carries effect on the game is reliant on the tanks/bruisers ability to fight. If they don't do any damage or even worse can't tank any damage then their team can just ignore them and go for the carries meaning you can't do any damage with your IE. A trinity guy who can force an AD carry to run instead of `just dying to him is very valuable.
A maokai with a randuins is a lot more dangeruos engaging than a maokai with a hog, becaues the AD carry can't kill him anyway near as fast, so he can CC the squishies.
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From what I understand the core on phoenix is supposed to be wits, randuin's & aegis, but FH is really friggin sweet on him too. So I'm having a hart time choosing between randuin's/FH. Or should I just pick both if they have the usually one AP and 3 AD comps?
Also in teamfights, do I just spam shield and stun only? It seems I try to add in a phoenix stance but then its either at the expense of me not getting them vital stuns off or me skimping on turtle spamming and not being tanky enough.
And lastly thanks for all the insight you guys provided in this thread 
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Randiun's is great for a couple of things - it helps you peel/stick on carries with the slow, the attack speed slow is better than FH when you are on the carry and he's forced to attack you. Randiuns has a amazing build up, HoG, Wardens mail. CDR is not very useful on Udyr, and all of Udyr's spell get cheaper the more you level them, he only has mana problems early in the game which you can cover pretty easily with the first blue and being a bit selective in stance changing early on (get the mana masteries in utility).
You definitely should be adding in phoenix stance. Even if you are just flashing it you gain a 5 second buff which does 300~ish melee aoe damage and significant bonus ad/ap (24/48).
You should have 3-4 seconds between bear stuns and turtle stance to go phoenix hit someone 3 times and rinse repeat, remember that that third hit on phoenix is an extra 200 magic damage in a massive aoe and a huge component of Udyr's damage. Later on I think you have plenty of time to even throw in some tiger stances for the DOT and extra Attack speed.
The only exception is when you want to stun multiple targets, where you might want to flash phoenix before bear for the buff and go peel those bruisers off your carry, but unless you're stunning 3-4 people I think you should have enough time to phoenix still.
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CDR is pretty good on udyr actually cuz more CDR = more uptime on turtle stance. Even smash posted in the last couple pages that FH is badass on udyr . . .
I do agree with the rest of your post though. Thx
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On February 28 2012 14:05 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:From what I understand the core on phoenix is supposed to be wits, randuin's & aegis, but FH is really friggin sweet on him too. So I'm having a hart time choosing between randuin's/FH. Or should I just pick both if they have the usually one AP and 3 AD comps? Also in teamfights, do I just spam shield and stun only? It seems I try to add in a phoenix stance but then its either at the expense of me not getting them vital stuns off or me skimping on turtle spamming and not being tanky enough. And lastly thanks for all the insight you guys provided in this thread
If you're not primarily using pheonix stance in teamfights to kill their squishies you're probably doing something wrong. There's no point running around stunning tanks/supports/aps with spells on cd when you can just be killing ADs and APs who are the only ones doing damage to you in the first place.
Aegis is not core on udyr IMO, but definitely a good item. Same with frozen, I view it as situational while randuins is just an every game sort of thing. I prefer randuins over heart simply because it builds out of hog and is slightly better in terms of slowing more as and ms and having the active, but frozen is better top lane when you can't farm up hog and flat mana is worth something (hog also better in jungle because you're down 2 levels or more and thus need the extra bit of hp)
I have no idea how people manage to use tiger stance all day in fights but somehow as soon as they go pheonix they decide it's a bad idea to do damage.
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On February 28 2012 18:17 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:CDR is pretty good on udyr actually cuz more CDR = more uptime on turtle stance. Even smash posted in the last couple pages that FH is badass on udyr . . . I do agree with the rest of your post though. Thx
That's the only thing it helps out though (and tiger stance i guess), the HP and HP regen on Randiuns would definately do more than a faster turtle cd. I can see it being a very viable 4th item over Aegis if you were playing a very stacked AD team.
I'm definately considering Philo since I definately experience the lack of sustain on early Udyr, he's never full hp. It's not so important for better junglers/teams I guess because they know their timings and always will be ready for objectives and/or ganks by healing/potting and coordinated ganks are really something stop and fight when they know they are going to lose.
I still think Philo is too much, it doesn't build great compared to HoG. A good compromise would be to pick up a early Rejuv Bead before HoG, you can easily pick it up in your first buy too at only 250G and it's in your eventual build for Randiuns. Udyr already takes very little damage with proper turtle usage, but is 8HP/s enough to keep you topped off?
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On February 28 2012 21:38 StUfF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 18:17 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:CDR is pretty good on udyr actually cuz more CDR = more uptime on turtle stance. Even smash posted in the last couple pages that FH is badass on udyr . . . I do agree with the rest of your post though. Thx That's the only thing it helps out though (and tiger stance i guess), the HP and HP regen on Randiuns would definately do more than a faster turtle cd. I can see it being a very viable 4th item over Aegis if you were playing a very stacked AD team. I'm definately considering Philo since I definately experience the lack of sustain on early Udyr, he's never full hp. It's not so important for better junglers/teams I guess because they know their timings and always will be ready for objectives and/or ganks by healing/potting and coordinated ganks are really something stop and fight when they know they are going to lose. I still think Philo is too much, it doesn't build great compared to HoG. A good compromise would be to pick up a early Rejuv Bead before HoG, you can easily pick it up in your first buy too at only 250G and it's in your eventual build for Randiuns. Udyr already takes very little damage with proper turtle usage, but is 8HP/s enough to keep you topped off?
I used to skip philo myself, but I'm just gonna go ahead and watch all the replays that slayer posted and then try it out. Before wit's end you never are topped off if you skip on it and I find myself not being able to gank plenty of times because of that.
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I'm sold on the philo but after browsing all the related posts I don't see anything mentioning the order of purchases. Do you normally get philo or hog first? If it's situational what circumstances warrant one over the other?
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Makes no sense to get hog before philo. The point of philo is that is sustains you therefore you want it as fast as possible to make the most out of the sustain. The gold value you get from philo is reduced the longer you take to buy it, not to mention the gold/10 ticking which is more minor though.
CDR is very good on udyr but its multiplicative with high resists and EHP in general. If you're not surviving a long time you won't get the most out of CDR. Also it lets you use bear stance and pheonix stance more which is helpful especially at lower levels of bear stance but it's not that useful on pheonix stance since the activation is every second anyway unlike tiger which benefits from CDR more since it's unfront damage you can't have 2 pheonix activations ticking at the same time.
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On the whole "go farm lanes when laners back" thing, is it acceptable to just push a wave or two in solo queue whenever there's no laner there? I'll often head to a lane when the laner goes back to pick up some farm, but if you're just last hitting and trying not to push the lane it doesn't always end up being worth the travel time, unless I absolutely had to go there because the tower was under threat or whatever.
I know someone like Saint will just aoe down a couple of waves, but I'm sure a lot of that is just him trolling/not caring about the lane.
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That's not how it works. If your jungle is cleared last hitting the lane is better than nothing and won't push it. What you SHOULD be doing though, is instantly clearing the first wave, pushing your creeps to tower and resetting the wave to the middle, that way the opposing laner gains nothing out of it, your laner loses nothing and you gained at least a full creep wave very quickly.
If the lane was pushing hard towards his end, it's just going to go to the tower. You CAN hold the lane tanking it and not damaging it but it's a big time investment and it's only worth it in some cases. If the lane was pushing hard towards his tower you're doing him a favour by resetting it.
The thing about pushing is you must ensure the creeps get to tower, if they don't just keep pushing until it gest to tower, but then your laner loses a wave or so and he's going to pick up some of the creep XP at tower (but better than letting him freeze the wave and neither you nor the laner gets the XP/cs)
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EPT
