EPT[Champion] Udyr - Page 26
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On March 24 2012 05:01 arb wrote: Should you go 5tiger 5 turtle 3 bear 5phoenix when playnig just standard jungle udyr? or is 3tiger 5turtle 5bear 5phoenix superior? In jungle games I don't put points in tiger until 16. You need to contend with a 1 second global CD every time you change stances so it's not like you can reasonably rotate through all four stances during a fight (you can use tiger->phoenix to max tower dps though  ). I also spam bear a ton during fights and I wouldn't want to lose the higher ranks of it for the movespeed and lower mana. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
I like his clear speeds, I like his stun. For junglers experience and gold is limited by clear speeds. Number of ganks is limited by mobility and clear speed. That's why I like speed clearers. One thing I've been trying is to get boots of mobility rather than merc treads and I think that's been helping a lot too. I like lane udyr too, but I feel like he can be counterpicked and that he certainly isn't as strong as I made him out to be in the past. He's a really strong duelist as tiger udyr. I really don't feel like his damage or tankiness scale very well. I know what I'm doing isn't standard and most of you will facepalm at what I'm doing. :/ Questions: 1. How good is CDR on udyr? I read that tiger's dot only refreshes if you apply it rapidly in succession and phoenix's waves don't stack. Does the 1 second global cooldown decrease with cdr? 2. How do you stay topped off in the jungle? I usually lose some life in the jungle even though I go phoenix, get 3 attacks, and then go turtle, then alternate between the two. Is it the runes? Do you buy a vamp scepter? | ||
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StUfF
Australia1437 Posts
2. Has been discussed quite a bit in this thread and the solution seems to be to get an early Philo Stone. The HP regen + hitting stuff in turtle form should keep you HP relatively high. Otherwise with your quick clear and movement speed and some foresight just make go back to base to heal up before major objectives/ganking. If you want damage most people rush Wit's end because resists stack well with turtle (free HP), and attack speed stacks ridiculously well with Phoenix and udyr's mechanics (speeding up his attack animation helps him chase so much). Boots 5 is interesting but with movementspeed quints and bear form he already outruns everyone, will landing that bear stun 0.1 seconds earlier help? | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On April 02 2012 09:13 StUfF wrote: 1. CDR is not bad, it's not something you want to prioritise. From my own testing, GCD does not get reduced but having turtle on a lower cd, the ability to keep bear stance speed bonus up longer is still beneficial. I don't play really play lanedyr/tigerdyr but I was under the impression you could stack two dots by doing Tiger into Tiger. 2. Has been discussed quite a bit in this thread and the solution seems to be to get an early Philo Stone. The HP regen + hitting stuff in turtle form should keep you HP relatively high. Otherwise with your quick clear and movement speed and some foresight just make go back to base to heal up before major objectives/ganking. If you want damage most people rush Wit's end because resists stack well with turtle (free HP), and attack speed stacks ridiculously well with Phoenix and udyr's mechanics (speeding up his attack animation helps him chase so much). Boots 5 is interesting but with movementspeed quints and bear form he already outruns everyone, will landing that bear stun 0.1 seconds earlier help? Thanks. The boots are more for catching people out of position. When the laning phase ends and my team is ahead it's very easy to find someone pushed up just a little too much or near an objective and boots 5 lets me catch up to them when they'd otherwise get too close to a tower/into their own territory for me to chase. Then phage and the stun let my team catch up and we get a kill. In addition I don't own movespeed runes :/ Even when my team is behind in kills the boots 5 seems to help us come back a little bit in kills. I'm pretty sure Tiger doesn't stack according to an excerpt from the udyr wiki strategy page. When ganking as Udyr try to hide in a bush then activate Tiger Stance and, before the duration of the DoT from Tiger Stance ends, changing into Bear Stance and stunning the opponent. If done correctly you will apply the DoT from Tiger Stance when you hit with your Bear Stance and then switching to Tiger Stance immediately afterwards. This will allow you to apply 2 DoTs on an enemy therefore dealing more damage, however the DoT will not stack, only refresh the duration. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Udyr_the_Animal_Spirit/Strategy | ||
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Gondlem
Australia642 Posts
Philo stone is nice since it ensures you'll be at 100% instead of like 90% and you'll be safer if you want to help lanes, but either way you're not going to be unable to continue jungling because of the damage creeps do to you unless you're doing something unusual. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On April 02 2012 08:20 obesechicken13 wrote: So I just started Udyr. I've been maxing Phoenix and getting other stances as I need, opening boots 3 pots, then rushing phage and oracles. He's not bad. Really innately tanky mid game, but I've noticed that I get blowed up too fast if I get anything offensive past phage so I just go aegis GA warmogs. I like his clear speeds, I like his stun. For junglers experience and gold is limited by clear speeds. Number of ganks is limited by mobility and clear speed. That's why I like speed clearers. One thing I've been trying is to get boots of mobility rather than merc treads and I think that's been helping a lot too. I like lane udyr too, but I feel like he can be counterpicked and that he certainly isn't as strong as I made him out to be in the past. He's a really strong duelist as tiger udyr. I really don't feel like his damage or tankiness scale very well. I know what I'm doing isn't standard and most of you will facepalm at what I'm doing. :/ Questions: 1. How good is CDR on udyr? I read that tiger's dot only refreshes if you apply it rapidly in succession and phoenix's waves don't stack. Does the 1 second global cooldown decrease with cdr? 2. How do you stay topped off in the jungle? I usually lose some life in the jungle even though I go phoenix, get 3 attacks, and then go turtle, then alternate between the two. Is it the runes? Do you buy a vamp scepter? 1: Your build is awful. You shouldn't be rushing phage. Sure the slow is nice but you have red buff a decent amount of the time. Health and attack damage are really poor stats on pheonix udyr. Warmogs is also poor on udyr. Your defensive strength comes from your turtle stance while gives 220-250 (if you have the pheonix AP bonus on it) shield every <6 seconds (with any cdr) so you want to stack mostly resists and take any hp that comes. This means your main items for defensive stats should be: -Wits end -Force of nautre -Aegis maybe -Randuins Omen -Frozen Heart GA is okay but attack speed slows usually serve you better. For damage you're wanting at least an attack speed item, either trinity or wits end, you can get both if you're pretty fed. Shurleyas is nice because it gives you speed which isn't technically damage but it works like that a lot, as well as giving your lots of health, cdr and regen all of which scale really well with your already high resists and only costs 1400 off a philo which easily pays for itself inbetween the regen and gold/10. You shouldn't build oracles every game like that, you only get it in passive games where they ward a lot and not that much crazy shit happens where you're likely to die. Boots of mobility is gimmicky, go for movement quints and masteries and get mercs. If you still need more movement speed get a zeal or a force of nature. Movement speed is really effective in teamfights if people are getting caught out of position boots 5 doesn't help you all that much anyway. Also, you max turtle second (after pheonix, 1 in bear, ALWAYS, no "as you need them" it's too important) and then 3 in bear, choosing between 5 in tiger after or 5 bear 3 tiger. On tiger udyr, most important thing is you max turtle FIRST, maybe taking tiger at level 1 and bear at level 3. You should be even tankier than a pheonix udyr. Go for wits end and or wriggles for laning, into frozen heart/fon for defensive items or trinity force for offensive items. I don't see any counterpicks to lane udyr, maybe you're playing the lane wrong. Also you generally go boots-->philo+hog in jungle udyr, because the gold/10 is good on jungle when you don't need your stats constantly for fighting in lane which is the weakness of gold/10 in lane, also they build into fantastic udyr items. Boots-->philo/hog-->recurve-->wits+mercs-->Chain vest is the core you want out of the jungle into shurelyas+randuins into last items trinity/frozen/fon pick two. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
You have to realize that there are some lanes that are simply ungankable as Udyr unless they position extremely poorly, and no amount of itemization will help. What you can do is kill quicker so you 1) farm and counterjungle better and 2) have higher success rate on the ganks you do get. As for build, many people go boots/philo/hog these days, but there are games where double gp5 is really bad. The old build used to skip philo and go boots>hog>wits, and if fed recurve before hog. The difference in damage and tankiness is really noticeable when you do those 10-15min dragon fights and all you have are gp5. If you're new to Udyr I'd recommend only building 1 gp5, and getting that Wit's + Chain Vest asap (and maybe Oracles if you're ahead). Udyr is an absolute monster ~level 10-12 when you have max Phoenix and close to max Turtle, and if you're already ahead you are absolutely unkillable with Wit's + Chain Vest at this stage. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Having a hog is only useful if you are going to be full hp or close to it at the start of the fight, doing any jungling or getting poked and suddenly philo is suddenly profitting a lot more. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
Which one you buy depends on you. I personally like hog in most games, but I know some people like philo. If you are getting the 2nd blue though (i.e. Kennen/Vlad team) I wouldn't get philo. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On April 03 2012 00:03 Sandster wrote: Except hog builds into a core item, whereas you can live without shurelia. In games where you are going to be in team fights relatively early, having the wits end pieces is much more valuable than any amount of gp5. In those cases where you base with only boots and < 1k gold, your choices are philo, hog, NMM, and not buying anything. I'm just saying don't blindly buy 2 gp5 every game, since in a lot of games you can only afford 1 before you need items for fights. Which one you buy depends on you. I personally like hog in most games, but I know some people like philo. If you are getting the 2nd blue though (i.e. Kennen/Vlad team) I wouldn't get philo. Confusing logic. You're fine with buying one gp5, but suddenly 2 is a huge sin? If theres going to be early teamfights then by all means go for a Jatt build with mercs rush into wits end or something. Randuins isn't really any more core than shurelyas is. Frozen heart is technically a better item than randuins it's just the early gp5 makes randuins a better buy and the early hog health is pretty nice, but without philo to me it seems like you don't even get to utilize it that much. | ||
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noggnoskill
United States97 Posts
If you buy a gp10 item without the intent of building it into something, you probably shouldn't have bought it. It's not a huge sin, it's just not good. And Randuins is WAY better on Udyr than Shurelyas. I get randuins every game no matter what, the stats it gives for how much it costs is just way too good. (Unless they have double AP and their carry is gimp, in which case TRIFORCE AWAAAY) Shurelyas is good on udyr when nobody on your team has anything to help force an engagement, in which case you probably failed at champion select unless you're playing protect the carry. | ||
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seppolevne
Canada1681 Posts
From there I like: Banshee -> Randuin -> Shurelia -> FoN as end game, mixed up as needed. 9/21/0, aspd/armor/aspd/mspd Started maining Udyr a little while ago this is what I have been liking. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Also, I'd recommend going 0/21/9 instead of 9/21/0, simply because the movement speed and buff duration are both really good, and -15 seconds on flash is noticeable because of how falsh dependent udyr can be. | ||
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seppolevne
Canada1681 Posts
On April 03 2012 01:51 Slayer91 wrote: You shouldn't get banshee on melees almost ever. It's pretty cost in effective and good luck getting close to your enemies without losing your spell block instantly to some random ezreal Q. You also are buying 4 magic resist items, what kind of teams are you playing against? Mercs+wits end should be enough magic resist combined with mr/lvl blues (the 6% or so flat attack speed probably isn't worth it) against anything but a double AP team, so you have two extra slots, in which I'd go either frozen heart+fon or frozen heart+trinity as last items. (Unless their AD carry isn't a threat in which you can go GA/Trinity, or Fon/Trinity or something) Also, I'd recommend going 0/21/9 instead of 9/21/0, simply because the movement speed and buff duration are both really good, and -15 seconds on flash is noticeable because of how falsh dependent udyr can be. Yeah I hear that. Banshee is often switched for FH when I don't need the mres. This build is for 200/200/3000 or so, pre-game blind queue plan. TBH I theorycrafted the shit out of him for a long time, came up with something I thought was awesome, played him a couple times (rocked my level), watched one of your replays (vs Ichlesticks and vs Z/Weig Kog?), was like "Wow I was pretty damn close to someone who's good at this game, awesome!". So thanks for help ^^ | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
The AoE effect from activating Phoenix (I mean the flame-waves, not the AA proc) removes spellshields, so if you gank/attack with Phoenix -> Bear, you'll be guranteed a stun even against BV/sivir/noct. (personal speculation is that it's a leftover from the times where Phoenix, and a bunch of other spells, were incorrectly tagged as single-target) | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Gondlem
Australia642 Posts
That's one reason I don't go philo honestly, because I feel like going randuins, reverie, aegis and wits leaves me with little room to vary my build to get more defensive stats of a specific type or to get more damage. I think if you know you're not getting aegis, fitting reverie in is a lot easier. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On April 03 2012 02:20 Gondlem wrote: I get aegis like 75% of my games on Udyr. Usually hog -> mercs -> wits as core, oracles if I'm doing well and there's plenty of warding going on, and then go aegis unless the support is getting it first item, followed by randuins. Maybe at higher elo more supports rush aegis, but I just feel like it's a crucial item to have on the team by like the 25 min mark or so, and if I don't get it nobody will unless it's the support's second item at like 40 mins. That's one reason I don't go philo honestly, because I feel like going randuins, reverie, aegis and wits leaves me with little room to vary my build to get more defensive stats of a specific type or to get more damage. I think if you know you're not getting aegis, fitting reverie in is a lot easier. I find myself waiting a long time on Wit's in the jungle on Udyr... I dunno, I'm just usually going double gold/10 -> oracles and that makes me go tanky as fuck to protect my oracles. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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