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[Champion] Udyr - Page 22

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InvaderUK
Profile Joined January 2011
225 Posts
February 14 2012 00:36 GMT
#421
I went 5-0 and carried a soloq game while I was drunk just by listening to what Slayer91 was saying to me on ts.

best deer in the verse.
patriarch of the church of howard. may maokai smile upon you.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 23:43:26
February 16 2012 23:43 GMT
#422
Yo guys, bly was suggesting I should post some replays on my udyr so I played a couple udyr games tonight so I might as well post the replays. I played another but I dc'd at the start and missed like the first 2.5 mins and I closed LoLreplay incase it was causing the crash.

Game 1: (Featuring Alex Ichsticks)
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/237238/

Game 2: (Featuring Entenzwerg boss Kog'maw)
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/237250/

I might give a bit of my own analysis tomorrow if I rewatch them but I'll leave them here for now.
aka Teutonica
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
February 16 2012 23:53 GMT
#423
Usually im going boots hog wits then situational tanky items

would getting a philo in combination be good with hog? or should i just keep at that build?
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-16 23:59:14
February 16 2012 23:56 GMT
#424
I find philo indispensible for the amount of regen it gives in jungle. In jungle you're never going to be full health or mana so if you work out the cost efficiency it's something ridiculous like 3 minutes to pay for itself. (assuming you would buy hp+mana pots to get the same effect LOL) Like when I try to skip hog I end up ganking with lowish hp or mana and I'll be spamming like I normally would and be out of mana too fast. If you can learn to play using less stances because you don't like philo it's going to hurt your play later when you should be spamming like nothing else to maximize your preformance.#

Combine it with the fact that shurelyas is an amazing item for udyr - if you're not going trinity you might lack some movement speed and shurelyas plugs that. If you're not going trinity it's safe to say you'll be stacking resists which will scale well with your hp and cdr from shurelyas.

Also the 30 hp regen and 15 mana regen is not to be underestimated. I notice the difference in spamming W vs poke with just a philo and with a full shurelyas. It's suprisingly big. You will rarely run oom in a long teamfight with shurelyas.
aka Teutonica
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
February 21 2012 06:46 GMT
#425
ap quints on phoenix udyr?
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
February 21 2012 07:25 GMT
#426
For minimal damage boost to R that you won't ever add to unless you buy rageblade or something silly? i would imagine AS or even arpen/ad are better. i run MS though
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
arnath
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1317 Posts
February 21 2012 07:30 GMT
#427
On February 21 2012 15:46 zulu_nation8 wrote:
ap quints on phoenix udyr?

God no. Assuming you're jungling, quints should be MS or AS.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
February 21 2012 07:32 GMT
#428
MS on Udyr. Need to stun moar.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-21 21:21:20
February 21 2012 21:21 GMT
#429
MS is important to reduce your reliance on bear stance and low level bear stance isn't that amazing anyway. It's part of the reason you like triforce when you can get away with it, and you get phage/zeal before sheen.

AP scaling isn't that awful it just comes down to the fact that doing more damage when you're constantly in range is the least of your worries. Lots of champions have better scaling on AP from consistent damage anyway. (Think rumbles overheated Q)

Even if you're getting rageblade for the lols it's not like theres any multiplicative scaling going on, so if you're buying ragebalde for it's cost efficiency at max rank you're definitely not going to get not so cost effective AP quints.
aka Teutonica
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
February 21 2012 21:34 GMT
#430
What item build do you use Slayer?

I currently do boots3 into merc treads rush. Then either rush wit's end or get a hog into more tanky. I read you like philo but I find it delays my other items. Should I just skip hog or get both philo and hog?
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
February 21 2012 22:13 GMT
#431
I often feel like I'm getting far more MR than Armor at any given point in time. Merc's + Wits + Aegis is 3 NMMs and only 1 Cloth armor. I mean, I know you have more base Armor and the flat Seals mean your Armor is higher at lower levels, but I feel invincible against AP and squishy as hell against a competent AD.
It's your boy Guzma!
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
February 21 2012 22:18 GMT
#432
that seems natural. most of the aoe damage you'll take in a teamfight is magic damage.
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
February 21 2012 22:48 GMT
#433
True, but if they decide to focus fire you, especially that AD carry, you need armor. The removal of Dodge from is Passive really hurt that, I think.
It's your boy Guzma!
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-22 16:25:44
February 22 2012 16:21 GMT
#434
On February 22 2012 06:34 Ryuu314 wrote:
What item build do you use Slayer?

I currently do boots3 into merc treads rush. Then either rush wit's end or get a hog into more tanky. I read you like philo but I find it delays my other items. Should I just skip hog or get both philo and hog?


You answer your own question here. I don't know what you want from me, yes philo stone delays items by 800 gold-30 gold/minute - the gained farm from your increased sustain. If you don't like the trade off you just don't have to buy it.

I'm not a massive fan of rushing wits end so fast, I find that the extra damage isn't needed that much and I'd prefer a bit more HP so I can tower dive better and survive physical damage bursts as well as magic damage. You have like ridiculous amonuts of MR which isn't all that needed so early. It's not unusual for me to get a chain vest with my philo and hog before wits end maybe even before recurve bow. (Recurve bow does more to increasing your jungling speed since the procs are AoE. so It's a higher priority than wits even if the 950 for wits is more efficient in terms of stats)


On February 22 2012 07:13 Requizen wrote:
I often feel like I'm getting far more MR than Armor at any given point in time. Merc's + Wits + Aegis is 3 NMMs and only 1 Cloth armor. I mean, I know you have more base Armor and the flat Seals mean your Armor is higher at lower levels, but I feel invincible against AP and squishy as hell against a competent AD.


That's because you're not getting a HoG into randuins. The other option is rushing frozen heart straight after aegis. (What Jatt often went for, it's the only real other armour option anyway, you can buy straight wardens mail but then it just feels stupid not getting a fast Hog)

Most of the damage you take in teamfights isn't necessarily magic damage, in fact the way you want to be playing is to take the minimum amount of unnecessary magic damage and this fits right in with going to to their back line and attacking their ap/ad carry. (If you're on their AP carrys face chances are you're not taking free AoE damage from their spells, they have to choose between using it on you and nobody else or trying to hit their spells while dying to you).

After mercs and wits end I don't even get aegis that much, I feel like magic resist isn't a priority on udyr after mercs and wits, I often go randuins into shurleyas into frozen heart, or randuins into trinity. If I'm getting poked I just get a force of nature.

Aegis is a pretty great item all around but it doesn't plug any holes in general. Just makes you all around beefier which I like to accomplish just by farming more and itemize for the situation (randuins/heart anti AD, FoN anti poke/really heavy magic/trinity more damage and chasing+bursting power)
aka Teutonica
Ecael
Profile Joined February 2008
United States6703 Posts
February 22 2012 18:48 GMT
#435
Slayer, how do you feel about the approach that Saint seems to take relatively often in going rejuv bead for the sustain slot? The difference between that and philo seems to be invested into either a fast recurve, chainmail or oracles for him. Or is it simply the difference between organized play and solo q where the map control afforded by oracles isn't enough and you feel like the power from the ability to spam qwer harder offers you greater flexibility?
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23463 Posts
February 22 2012 20:36 GMT
#436
It's a good alternative to philo stone but you're losing health regen, mana regen, and the option to build into shurelyas. I would say it's better than skipping regen completely, but I just find myself missing the regen from philo and the shurelyas upgrade as well.

You're saving, what, 550 gold? Good way of getting a fast oracles without losing too much, wouldn't say you need the chain mail or recurve as super high priority compared to what you're getting from philo though.

I guess if you're behind early as well it's a good option. Philo less effective when you're buying it late, have to base more often and are underfarmed. Spending 800 gold on something that doesn't help you survive burst isn't that smart in that kind of situation.
aka Teutonica
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
February 22 2012 20:44 GMT
#437
On February 23 2012 05:36 Slayer91 wrote:
It's a good alternative to philo stone but you're losing health regen, mana regen, and the option to build into shurelyas. I would say it's better than skipping regen completely, but I just find myself missing the regen from philo and the shurelyas upgrade as well.

You're saving, what, 550 gold? Good way of getting a fast oracles without losing too much, wouldn't say you need the chain mail or recurve as super high priority compared to what you're getting from philo though.

I guess if you're behind early as well it's a good option. Philo less effective when you're buying it late, have to base more often and are underfarmed. Spending 800 gold on something that doesn't help you survive burst isn't that smart in that kind of situation.

Do you actually find yourself needing a philo? I honestly cant think of a time when Turtle wasnt enough to keep me healthy, and pheonix is really low cost as you level it.

I dunno, I understand why you would get it I just honestly cant think of a time I would have needed it.

Although I do think that boots-hog-mercs-wits does sort of make it so you dont actually take damage from minions cuz you just kill them so fast.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-22 20:53:53
February 22 2012 20:49 GMT
#438
On February 23 2012 05:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2012 05:36 Slayer91 wrote:
It's a good alternative to philo stone but you're losing health regen, mana regen, and the option to build into shurelyas. I would say it's better than skipping regen completely, but I just find myself missing the regen from philo and the shurelyas upgrade as well.

You're saving, what, 550 gold? Good way of getting a fast oracles without losing too much, wouldn't say you need the chain mail or recurve as super high priority compared to what you're getting from philo though.

I guess if you're behind early as well it's a good option. Philo less effective when you're buying it late, have to base more often and are underfarmed. Spending 800 gold on something that doesn't help you survive burst isn't that smart in that kind of situation.

Do you actually find yourself needing a philo? I honestly cant think of a time when Turtle wasnt enough to keep me healthy, and pheonix is really low cost as you level it.

I dunno, I understand why you would get it I just honestly cant think of a time I would have needed it.

Although I do think that boots-hog-mercs-wits does sort of make it so you dont actually take damage from minions cuz you just kill them so fast.


Well, in that case you're going to be running low on mana, which means in ganks/counter ganks/jungle invades any kind of early fights that happen you're going to run out of mana and not going to be nearly as tanky/dpsy and won't have the mana to chase down people with bear. Philo stone is never wasted because if I'm full hp I'll conserve mana and won't turtle shield and when I'm full mana I'll turtle shield before pheonixing on the camp.

Maybe it's because I got used to spamming my spells a lot but every time I decided to skip philo recently it was like "Okay just need to kill this last guy.. shoot I'm out of mana I can't do anything" sometime's it'll be their jungle like lee sin or something who I'm thinking I'm about to destroy until I realize I have no more mana and he can just spam shit on me until I die.

I mean, maybe you can get away with being less crazy around the map and or basing more often but I just never felt like buying philo made me weak at all, and shurleyas is such a good item if you're getting philo that fast anyway.

I've been buying both philo and chalice on maokai, I mean I was semi-serious when I bought it because I was pissed off that I kept running oom going through small camps but once I bought it I started buying it every game I wasn't getting all the blues and never really regretted it. You are so much stronger and put out so much more damage in teamfights when you're always full mana, you also get to stay around the map with your passive giving you health combined with infinite mana meaning you farm so much more and have more map presence. Should probably mention this in the maokai thread at some point.
aka Teutonica
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
February 22 2012 21:03 GMT
#439
On February 23 2012 05:49 Slayer91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2012 05:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
On February 23 2012 05:36 Slayer91 wrote:
It's a good alternative to philo stone but you're losing health regen, mana regen, and the option to build into shurelyas. I would say it's better than skipping regen completely, but I just find myself missing the regen from philo and the shurelyas upgrade as well.

You're saving, what, 550 gold? Good way of getting a fast oracles without losing too much, wouldn't say you need the chain mail or recurve as super high priority compared to what you're getting from philo though.

I guess if you're behind early as well it's a good option. Philo less effective when you're buying it late, have to base more often and are underfarmed. Spending 800 gold on something that doesn't help you survive burst isn't that smart in that kind of situation.

Do you actually find yourself needing a philo? I honestly cant think of a time when Turtle wasnt enough to keep me healthy, and pheonix is really low cost as you level it.

I dunno, I understand why you would get it I just honestly cant think of a time I would have needed it.

Although I do think that boots-hog-mercs-wits does sort of make it so you dont actually take damage from minions cuz you just kill them so fast.


Well, in that case you're going to be running low on mana, which means in ganks/counter ganks/jungle invades any kind of early fights that happen you're going to run out of mana and not going to be nearly as tanky/dpsy and won't have the mana to chase down people with bear. Philo stone is never wasted because if I'm full hp I'll conserve mana and won't turtle shield and when I'm full mana I'll turtle shield before pheonixing on the camp.

Maybe it's because I got used to spamming my spells a lot but every time I decided to skip philo recently it was like "Okay just need to kill this last guy.. shoot I'm out of mana I can't do anything" sometime's it'll be their jungle like lee sin or something who I'm thinking I'm about to destroy until I realize I have no more mana and he can just spam shit on me until I die.

I mean, maybe you can get away with being less crazy around the map and or basing more often but I just never felt like buying philo made me weak at all, and shurleyas is such a good item if you're getting philo that fast anyway.

I've been buying both philo and chalice on maokai, I mean I was semi-serious when I bought it because I was pissed off that I kept running oom going through small camps but once I bought it I started buying it every game I wasn't getting all the blues and never really regretted it. You are so much stronger and put out so much more damage in teamfights when you're always full mana, you also get to stay around the map with your passive giving you health combined with infinite mana meaning you farm so much more and have more map presence. Should probably mention this in the maokai thread at some point.

Ya maybe its just a playstyle thing. I dont run low on mana for whatever reason I guess is the answer.

Good call on chalice on Mao btw. Gotta try that sometime. Although I freakin hate maokai. Much rather play Volibur or J4 if I want a strong ganker cuz at least then I scale into the lategame.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-22 21:05:58
February 22 2012 21:04 GMT
#440
Maokais not at all weak in mid/late game from my experience. Whatever damage you miss later on is made up for in CC since you can blow people up so fast in late game. It's just a matter of getting farm. Your damage is pretty high against squishies anyway and you still haev the option of of CCing bruisers unlike udyr who barely does damage to them mid/late game.

Jungle alistar is a lot similar. It's like you think it's better to get support alistar but you'd be suprised what having an annoying CC bot is compared to having an annoying unkillable CC bot doing more damage caues of higher spell ranks.
aka Teutonica
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