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On February 23 2012 06:04 Slayer91 wrote:
Maokais not at all weak in mid/late game from my experience. Whatever damage you miss later on is made up for in CC since you can blow people up so fast in late game. It's just a matter of getting farm. Your damage is pretty high against squishies anyway and you still haev the option of of CCing bruisers unlike udyr who barely does damage to them mid/late game.
Ya I mean he isnt horrible but J4 and Volibur are just better lategame IMO cuz you either dunk people or just rape an entire team and dont die cuz your passive is fuckin broke.
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"don't die cuz your passive is fuckin broke" sounds a LOT like maokai.
Nobody plays jarvan or volibur jungle in EU so I wouldn't know. Wouldn't feel like voli is that powerful lategame. It feels like he relies too much on sticking to targets when his sticking to targets kit isn't the best. Jarvan is just cooldown dependant. If you hit your R and QE combo well you're a beast otherwise you're just a suicider.
Again, it's mostly farm dependent. Any of these tanky guys can be amazing farmed and fairly useless if not farmed, getting a lot of farm on a jungler is a pretty important thing.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 23 2012 06:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
Good call on chalice on Mao btw. Gotta try that sometime. Although I freakin hate maokai. Much rather play Volibur or J4 if I want a strong ganker cuz at least then I scale into the lategame.
That's cuz you like your farm.
Maokai is good lategame, but he doesn't really want/need a ton of items to do what he needs to do. Jarvan and Voli are great 2nd/3rd position junglers, but suck dick as 4th position. Maokai is one of the best junglers to play 4th position.
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On February 23 2012 06:09 Slayer91 wrote:
"don't die cuz your passive is fuckin broke" sounds a LOT like maokai.
Nobody plays jarvan or volibur jungle in EU so I wouldn't know. Wouldn't feel like voli is that powerful lategame. It feels like he relies too much on sticking to targets when his sticking to targets kit isn't the best. Jarvan is just cooldown dependant. If you hit your R and QE combo well you're a beast otherwise you're just a suicider.
Again, it's mostly farm dependent. Any of these tanky guys can be amazing farmed and fairly useless if not farmed, getting a lot of farm on a jungler is a pretty important thing.
Try it some time. You will be suprised how effective a volibear is. You just need to cut the dead time between wriggles/wits and your tank items as much as you can, but a lot of jugles have this problem (ww, udyr and shyv to a slightly lesser extent, ect)
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Alright, so we has here a link of Smash playing jungle Udyr from his stream.
http://www.twitch.tv/smashgizmo/b/309639782
He explains a lot of his thought process here now I don't agree with everything but that doesn't really matter. You guys should all watch it he's very indepth on his decisions.
Anyway, I'm going to use this as a case study of philo vs hog. Now, most people seem to think udyr doesn't need philo and that it's basically delaying your other items too much. Right, so I want you to watch that game he played. Try to find a single occassion where he actually had an opportunity to fight/gank/steal buff/whatever where he was using the entire hp pool of his hog. The argument here is if you're constantly under full hp, you're not using hog to it's full efficiency, and the argument for philo is you stay full hp or close to it, higher up on mana levels, and it pays for itself and converts into an efficient item later.
Literally I watched this replay and the only one time he was at full hp is when he got skarner ulted at his blue. However, he stayed alive until dragon and engaged at around 75% hp. He also couldn't beat skarner/morg with his AP at blue because he was too low, a full hp/mana udyr would easily have went in with a zilean back up.
Anyway, it's just a little bit to convince you guys that philo is pretty good. The other option is potions, even with philo I keep 1-2 potions on me at all times because you will get poked at dragons and you will lose hp when you want to fight and having a 150 hp heal is almost as good as a ruby crystal for less than 10% of the cost.
My opinion is that when smash was buying wards, he shoulda just bought 1-2 pots or maybe 1 ward. I know the 5HITCOMBO school of thought is that junglers should provide lots of wards but my opinion is that laners are better positioned to do it and have more gold to afford it. Junglers lose both farm time and money warding. It's okay if you're going oracles and want to clear anyway though. Udyr is really item dependent especially for the first mercs/hog/philo/wits/chain vest core and you want that ASAP.
Okay, on to the second point: Teamfighting; there was only one teamfight in this game. It snowballed from there. So GP is low doing dragon, smash and his team run in. Watch how it works.
-Smash runs in, stuns morgana
-Runs to dragon, doesn't have smite but see's gp is low,
-Gets skarner slowed, so ends up not going for gp, hits a full morgana ult, gets skarner ulted as only close target, starts getting freehitted by tristana, has to flash out and wastes zilean ult.
-Team is like "lol they focused udyr" and his team manages to clean up with low hp.
This is one of those cases I consider people "tanking damage" for no reason while being less effective than they should be.
What the fight should have been like is this
-Smash running in at full hp (or close to, because he should have pots)
-Stuns morg, starts dpsing morg to make her burn ult as early as possble when her team isn't ready.
-Runs TOP to avoid morg ult second tick and root, inbetween his team and taric/trist
-With turtle shield up, wait for taric to stun then engage on trist
-Trist probably has to rocket jump away or ult you away, if he jmups away just stay zoning, if she ults just run to her and keep pounding her. This is after morg ulted remember and your team should be dealing with a 20% gp, skarner, and a morg with no ult, so you just need to stall taric and trist, if they focus you hard just troll around with W and E running away, if they try to follow up morgana you just pound trist until she's forced to run from you.
Now, if they focused you there you'd get out at 30-50% hp or so, and you'd win the teamfight handily, if they followed up on morgana I'd expect you'd be closer to 75% hp and have a kill or two.
This is probably a bit harsh, always easier to make decsions in hindsight etc, and everythings a bit theoretical, but I want to give an idea of how I view teamfights instead of what people seem to be doing which is just spamming W and E and running around not knowing what to do.
Alright, next thing is basic udyr mechanics. You should be able to clear jungle with a good leash with 1 or 2 pots left and full hp. Udyr is a reactive jungler so the higher hp you have the more opportunities show up. You always want to be full hp and mana or as close as possible. You have a couple tricks for this
-1 Only ever use turtle for the shield, switch out ASAP unless theres only a few autos left in the camp (say 2 small wraiths), the healing on turtle is really really small, by the time its decent you have level 5 phoenix with instantly clears anyway.
- Use turtle BEFORE you start the camp, giving you a free turtle and 2 stacks of passive when you start pheonixing, and lets you turtle 2-3 seconds later and then R again giving you 2 shields and clearing with almost no hp.
-Align pheonix procs to hit as many creeps as possible on small camps.
My replays should be a good guidelne but I am by no means perfect.
Also, the oracles style is quite strong but I rarely find time to roam around killing wards and tend to tower dive and shit so I could die, but feel free to use it. I have a feeling oracles had less to do with smashes game so much as lanes winning handily and snowballing that into a dragon fight where there were in a bad position hp wise and snowballed further from that ace. Not that it didnt help rumble gank bot etc.
I have a couple of my own replays I played yesterday in solo queue.
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/255583/
This game the whole team plays well to shut down a shaco.
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/255584/
I did my bit this game but got lucky at least twice but I kinda got carried because I was just farming for a midgame that didn't happen.
There's another one in the irelia thread but its snoopeh playing udyr but he does well with him. (he's been training udyr recently).
Also, the best udyr streamer I've seen is Saintvicious. He doesn't go philo neither does snoopeh but I still think it's a good idea most of the time if you want to be ready for anything.
Also, don't want to bash smash or anything xD, just it's a very educational video and the availability of the vod means it's easy to point out some small things I think he did wrong. He's not a big udyr player and I am, so I have lots of experience to explain shit with.
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On February 27 2012 07:45 Slayer91 wrote:
My opinion is that when smash was buying wards, he shoulda just bought 1-2 pots or maybe 1 ward. I know the 5HITCOMBO school of thought is that junglers should provide lots of wards but my opinion is that laners are better positioned to do it and have more gold to afford it. Junglers lose both farm time and money warding. It's okay if you're going oracles and want to clear anyway though. Udyr is really item dependent especially for the first mercs/hog/philo/wits/chain vest core and you want that ASAP.
The theory behind it is that you are the jungler and you are everyone's bitch since you're already going to have less money than the other lanes you might as well spend extra money on wards.
It's ultimately a decision that comes down to individual playstyle and also depends on how willing your team is to ward on their own. Saint almost never wards whereas TheOddOne wards almost as much as the support sometimes.
I often find in solo queue that no one will ever ward, and in the interest of letting the team have more map awareness I'll go ahead and delay my Wit's End and other endgame items in favor of wards. Though if one were assertive enough it's probably feasible to get your team to ward more... haha.
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That mentality already is giving up your ability to carry games though, and that's kinda what you're aiming at on udyr. I mean, you don't do anything unless you can stay in melee range for a long time and if you're not farmed you can't do it. If you want to spend lots of time camping brushes and buying wards and placing them, I wouldn't pick udyr.
Like, you're going to have LESS money so you spend "extra" money on wards for lanes you aren't going to go to except to ward. It makes no sense to me. It also gives away your position to the entire enemy team if they have a ward and if you're not even ganking that's silly to me, if you have oracles it's nice to buy wards to switch map control around kinda but it's an investment and hopefully it lets your team gank more easily and you as well if they overextend.
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finally someone who uses turtle before starting camps l0l
i really cannot think of why you would not do it with blue buff up
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Not only that, but I've NEVER seen an Udyr go Bear -> Turtle to reach the camp faster, then Phoenix at the camp for a 3stack passive. If you have blue it's common sense, especially pre-Wit's End when clear speed actually matters.
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On February 27 2012 08:10 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 07:45 Slayer91 wrote:
My opinion is that when smash was buying wards, he shoulda just bought 1-2 pots or maybe 1 ward. I know the 5HITCOMBO school of thought is that junglers should provide lots of wards but my opinion is that laners are better positioned to do it and have more gold to afford it. Junglers lose both farm time and money warding. It's okay if you're going oracles and want to clear anyway though. Udyr is really item dependent especially for the first mercs/hog/philo/wits/chain vest core and you want that ASAP.
The theory behind it is that you are the jungler and you are everyone's bitch since you're already going to have less money than the other lanes you might as well spend extra money on wards. It's ultimately a decision that comes down to individual playstyle and also depends on how willing your team is to ward on their own. Saint almost never wards whereas TheOddOne wards almost as much as the support sometimes. I often find in solo queue that no one will ever ward, and in the interest of letting the team have more map awareness I'll go ahead and delay my Wit's End and other endgame items in favor of wards. Though if one were assertive enough it's probably feasible to get your team to ward more... haha.
"Ward? Whats a ward? Is that the thing that comes with a wriggles?"- SV
The major problem I have with the "Just make jungle support" line of thought is that then you end up with 2 useless characters late game instead of just 1. It doesnt take all that much to make a jungle a FORCE late game. Just someone who knows what they are doing when it comes to farming and spending gold efficiently.
Especially when you consider that a ward is 3 creeps for any laner but 2 full camps for the jungle, it just makes more sense to me for the lane to buy the wards they need. Sure jungle can help, but just look at what happens to TOO ever time the game lasts longer than 20 minutes. He turns into 100% dead weight.
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Just wanted to say thanks Slayer for all the insights you provide to this thread.
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So I've been jungling Udyr forever and he's definitely my best jungle but I recently started to play lanedyr as well. Not by choice, as both times so far I was planning on jungling and someone trollpicked a second jungle later but both times I crushed my lane anyway. I've always thought tiger was pretty crappy, and it is where AoE creep killing is concerned but for laning trades doing a bearpunch > tiger combo is scary shit.
First game was against a Sion. He could get his combo off easy enough but would lose more health in the ensuing chase. This is also the game where I learned that maxing turtle first is broken as fuck. AFK auto-attacking one minion wave brings Udyr nearly back to full and I had free range on minions whenever Sion's spells where on CD.
Second game was against a talon who thought he was counterpicking our Ryze. Zoned the Talon all game. But we won that because the Ryze was smart enough to switch lanes with me whenever their Talon tried to, so this really didn't feel like an amazing lanedyr game. Still, that Talon was worthless. He couldn't farm or harass at all and his tele + Q felt like the kiss of a baby lategame.
So between those two games, lanedyr feels super legit. I'm still building him identical to how I was building him in the jungle. Wriggles, mercs, wits as core, building pure tanky after that. I've been building warmogs as my standard fourth item but 95% of the time the game is practically over by the time I get it. Between the fact that I'm getting more farm through lane and using tiger over phoenix stance, I feel like there's SOMETHING I should build different about him, but Udyr games always seem rather short.
+ Show Spoiler +Runes are MS quints, ARP marks, armor seals, and AS glyphs. Masteries are 9/21/0. Really bog-standard Udyr build. I don't like GP5 on him.
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Wriggles is really bad on pheonix udyr. Warmogs is bad on him and you should consider hog-->randuins on jungle and phage or trinity-->frozen heart on lane udyr. (Higher levels on lane udyr make trinity a bit better and make hp/tank stats less needed)
Wriggles-->trinity and wriggles-->wits-->trinity are both good builds on him but obviously if you get wits end as well you probably want some armour before finishing trinity. If you're underfarmed just get at least a phage.
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Frozen Heart is kinda beast on Udyr. CDR for Turtle Shield and Resists for the HP it gives you is crazy strong.
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When doing phoenix jungle, wriggles is free wards and enough sustain that I can level turtle stance third. Otherwise, I'm using rank 1 bear for all ganks and bear is far more useful in early fights. With wriggles you can phoenix once at a camp and never lose health. Between the wards and the lifesteal I feel like I'm always in a better position to gank than without it.
I used to start cloth-5, build HoG, and wait until mercs and wits then build randuins, but I started to favor wriggles. It might not give attack speed or a useful proc when fighting, but wriggles is just so much stat for 1600g.
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On February 28 2012 03:31 Offhand wrote:
When doing phoenix jungle, wriggles is free wards and enough sustain that I can level turtle stance third. Otherwise, I'm using rank 1 bear for all ganks and bear is far more useful in early fights. With wriggles you can phoenix once at a camp and never lose health. Between the wards and the lifesteal I feel like I'm always in a better position to gank than without it.
I used to start cloth-5, build HoG, and wait until mercs and wits then build randuins, but I started to favor wriggles. It might not give attack speed or a useful proc when fighting, but wriggles is just so much stat for 1600g.
I disagree super hard with bear being far more useful in early fights. High level turtle stance makes you unkillable and level 1 bear is really all you need to stick to people until they start having their whole team to peel for them and their phantom dancers and reveries to run away.
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Wriggles is a strong item no matter what, the problem is that getting a wriggles just to max e before w won't do much. Even if you max E 2nd you won't be able to do Rammus-like ganks by simply charging through wards faster than their lane can back off. Then when you catch them and need to dive for the kill, your W will be too weak with the meager mitigation offered by wriggles.
With just a rejuv bead or philo, you will end up going around with no health lost anyway from the passive regen and usage of w. The amount of EHP you gain from being able to max w is just too great to offset by merely getting a wriggles.
What it boils down to here is that getting a wriggles just so that you can max E isn't as effective as maxing W and, say, getting a shurelia. It doesn't matter if you can catch up to them in their tower if you can't tank the tower forever. Without a high rank W, that just isn't happening.
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On February 28 2012 03:31 Offhand wrote:
When doing phoenix jungle, wriggles is free wards and enough sustain that I can level turtle stance third. Otherwise, I'm using rank 1 bear for all ganks and bear is far more useful in early fights. With wriggles you can phoenix once at a camp and never lose health. Between the wards and the lifesteal I feel like I'm always in a better position to gank than without it.
I used to start cloth-5, build HoG, and wait until mercs and wits then build randuins, but I started to favor wriggles. It might not give attack speed or a useful proc when fighting, but wriggles is just so much stat for 1600g.
Just buy a philo stone and use movement speed masteries and quints and level turtle stance. Turtle stance is way fucking better than bear stance I have no idea why you think you can skip it.
You do so much magic damage and scale so badly with AD on pheonix that basically everything but the armour and ward on wriggles is wasted and the free ward is the same as 5 gold/10 which you get from philo and also hog.
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Um for phoenix jungle scepter is badass as fuck. I use Speed Reds, Armor Yellows, MR Blues, and Speed Quints. Starting with only Scepter, I can jungle for the entire rest of the game without going back if I wanted to. Keep E @lv1 till the end (I get it @lv4), R#1 W#2 Q#3 E#4 in priority.
Wriggles > Mercs > Wits > then normally a Banshee.
Last game I went 8/1/x with him and that's all I could get because they ff'd @ 20.
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On February 28 2012 04:26 Silidons wrote:
Um for phoenix jungle scepter is badass as fuck. I use Speed Reds, Armor Yellows, MR Blues, and Speed Quints. Starting with only Scepter, I can jungle for the entire rest of the game without going back if I wanted to. Keep E @lv1 till the end (I get it @lv4), R#1 W#2 Q#3 E#4 in priority.
Wriggles > Mercs > Wits > then normally a Banshee.
Last game I went 8/1/x with him and that's all I could get because they ff'd @ 20.
you can do that same thing with boots+3...what's your point? -.-;
wriggles is 1600 wasted gold. it's a good item, but it's not necessary at all on phoenix udyr. the lifesteal and ad is completely unnecessary since phoenix udyr doesn't need AD and turtle/philo (if you get it) covers all your sustain needs. Wriggles proc is wasted too considering how fast you clear anyways; only time it's good is when you contest objectives. The only thing good on wriggles is the armor and ward, both of which have better sources.
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EPT
