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I always start Boots 3, because I like those early ganks to help my team. And HoG (and maybe Philo) before Wit's is a very solid choice, but rushing Recurve is a viable option if you're kind of snowballing and have the chance to rush in for multiple kills early on.
I'm not saying Phoenix specifically spends all it's time in Turtle/Bear, but rather both specs and Udyr in general.
Once you get to a certain point in the game and you're just teamfighting, your job as Udyr isn't to do damage. Since you're a bruiser (and one that's all autos at that), you're going to be in the fray at all times. You're going to be getting hit most of the time, and Bear is your big thing for disrupting the enemy team so your teammates can finish them off. There's not really a lot of time to get damage in if you're spamming WE repeatedly, not that I've found anyway.
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Disrupting the enemy team is a word I only hear phreak say and I couldn't really disagree more. The ONLY thing that udyr does is damage. The 1 second stun is an extremely minimal amount of disruption on most people. It's great for initating sure, but when the fights are started running around stunning people once is really silly. There are much better tanks if you want CC. Rammus, amumu, galio, all these guys are FAR more effective and do more damage than udyr running around pressing E.
I do tend to spam W on CD. I use E at key points, intitiating, chasing, running away, running back into a fight. I never use stun just for the sake of it. An AP carry will probably have his spells on CD, same with a support. An AD carry you just want to stun probably is going to just lose 1 second of damage on you where if you were fighting properly he wouldn't be able to do to you.
Taking damage in a teamfight is NOT a good thing. The only reason you should be taking damage is to achieve a goal. If you want to zone their AD carry the best way to do it is to
a: Go fucking kill him and zone him to the fountain if he's too far back for his team to help him.
b: Force him to come close to your team if he wants to do any damage and then when he gets close to them run in and stun him. If he fights, your team is in range to support you, if he runs, he didn't do any damage while you got to do whatever you wanted until he made a commitment to the fight.
I guess it's hard to explain in words since I don't watch myself teamfight more than I just do it.
The whole point of being tanky is it LETS you do damage to squishy targets. Squishies can't get close to squishies because they get CC'd and insta gibbed. "Tanks" can either be like rammus, who has an extremely long CC which means if the AD gets close enough to rammus but tries to ignore him he can get killed in the taunt. Not to mention rammus has INSANE base damage on an AD carry with W E and R you can take half his hp off straight away. The bruiser type like udyr or skarner tends to zone squishies by more of "if you come close I chase you down and kill you, you can't fight because I'm too tanky and if your team focuses me I just run away because I'm too tanky".
I mean, I definitely have those times where I don't do much damage because I'm in one of those situations, say, vs 2x AD carry 1x AP, where all I have to do is stun someone and let my team kill them and if they flash out keep running and stun someone else and if I'm too tanky and too mobile to kill then I can just constantly keep stunning someone until they run out of escapes and my team kills them and if I can't die, they can't stop it. If I can die, I just need to take a minimum amount of damage per stun by pre and post stun shiedling and only going in to land stuns and It's one of those kite wars where If my team can't keep up with me I have to fall back and it starts over again. But most of the time a full teamfight emerges and the only thing that makes sense is to go for the squishies to keep them from yours and also because it's where your damage is most effective.
I guess teamfights change a massive amount based on the items of the AD carry, but in the midgame where they don't have their PD yet generally you just run around attacking the highest threat target. Threat to me is the time it takes for me to kill them including my team combined with how much damage per second they deal. AD and AP carries do the largest damage per second and take the least time to kill and generally their tanks rely on their damage to follow up on their CC so if you can kill them you basically win the fight guaranteed.
I guess this is really hard to explain in posts. I'll just play some more udyr games and try to figure out what exactly I'm doing in teamfights. I'm definitely not just taking damage for the sake of it because I'm positive that's not the way to play. I'm still standing by taking damage only as a calculated trade. If their AD is so fed that he can 4 shot my team then I can't really stay near my team and try to kill him before my team dies, but then again, if I can land a stun and we can burst him down it's a good idea, so the other option which is to engage him before he gets close to my team and distract him and do some damage before flashing away or dying is less optimal. But it still is viable if your AD carry is just as fed and you survive longer than their tanks so much that your death/almost dying accomplished more than whatever their tanks did.
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Man that's a block of text, very nice.
I say that I'm supposed to spam WE because that's how my team always tells me to play. If I'm running around WR to shield damage and Bird things, well, I've gotten reported before because I'm not "playing the character right" and "trolling", so that's just how I got used to playing. I probably shouldn't listen to bads, ne?
The teamfight thing is complicated. As someone who plays AD carries a fair amount, I can tell you this: you often are hitting bruisers. Even in a full 5v5, you want to hit the squishy damage dealers, but often you have to settle for whoever is closest. Udyr being Udyr means you're pretty much always closest, thanks to his kit.
From how I understand your point (and I could be wrong, forgive me if so), you don't even engage yourself in the fight unless you can be sure you can run in, pressure out the enemy carry, and maybe kill them. However, that doesn't seem realistic. If you're waiting for that one perfect moment where they're close enough to Bear sprint to and everyone is ignoring you for damage, you'll be out of the fight more than half the time.
On the other hand, if you run into the fight, you have two choices. Go in at the start (maybe not necessarily initiating, but getting in right off the bat) or waiting for the big things to get blown and then clean up. If you do the former, well, you're going to get focused by at least one enemy. That's just how it's going to be, they're not going to ignore you and try to run and catch your Caitlyn or something. If you choose the latter, you're often going to be getting in as it starts to disperse with his lack of an instant closer, and you'll usually get kited by their runners who are in full retreat mode. You need to land that "sweet spot" after CC is blown, but take some of the burst damage that your squishies won't survive.
Yeah, I agree, it's a hard concept to post back and forth about. The long and short of my post is this: as much as you don't want to take undue damage, you're going to. You can't always have a favorable engage, and even in the smartest ones, a dumb teammate retreating or an enemy deciding to switch to you opens you up to a world of hurt, which you have resist items and W for.
I'm not calling Udyr bad, but I'm simply challenging your definition. He's not primarily a damage dealer. Yes, you can pump out sick damage, but his range and how he works usually necessitate a more defensive mindset. Not full tank, but more tanky than your average melee.
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He is a tank; he just doesn't have a hard initiate outside of flash->bearstun, and even that's pretty weak.
Udyr left alone will obliterate any squishy in seconds. (Get Udyr alone in melee range vs any AD or AP and watch how fast they melt.) This means that you are a huge threat that they cannot let close to their back line. As Udyr, you're not supposed to hang out in the back until all the cc's are blown; you're supposed to be the front line and soak the damage/cc. Any damage/cc done to you is less damage/cc to the rest of your team, and a better chance for your teammates to get in better position to maximize damage.
If you run up in bear stance with no shield up, you will get silenced/cc'd and instantly blown up. This is why maxing turtle before team fights and keeping it up is so important. Never retreating as Udyr is suicide.
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That's kind of what I'm getting at. I don't mean I'm going in the back though. I mean I am not running past their whole team in fights. I can safely stun and hit bruisers with turtle shield up and force their carries to go for me in which case I can run in and go for them since they will be closer for me team to support me. I don't mean I play like a pussy or something 
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Ah, that makes more sense.
Along these lines, any good VODs out there of Udyr? Would be interesting to see his movements in a pro game, with this discussion.
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Yeah, most of the time as Udyr you will run into a team fight in turtle, eat a round of damage, then bear/phoenix and run backwards into your team stunning people along the way (usually bruisers trying to zone your carries), then get back in turtle and go in again to zone their carries.
Udyr is tanky, but not invincible. Your kit is best suited to taking long periods of sustained damage, and not for handling cc->huge burst. You commit to chasing a squishy only if the opportunity presents itself.
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On January 13 2012 02:36 Slayer91 wrote:That's kind of what I'm getting at. I don't mean I'm going in the back though. I mean I am not running past their whole team in fights. I can safely stun and hit bruisers with turtle shield up and force their carries to go for me in which case I can run in and go for them since they will be closer for me team to support me. I don't mean I play like a pussy or something
tbh teut stuff like your wall of text is the reason you're probably THE poster in this subforum (Risu and Intrix don't count since they don't post =/ ...) I miss streaming/making replays/VODs.
Even when playing WITH you there are those moments on vent where it's like "Oh fuck oh fuck I'm gonna... ohlol" ... DOUBLEKILL ... "teut wtf?" ... "I dno I just killed em haha that was gold lol" ... and then I scroll my screen over and you're derping around at 10% health after diving someone at his T2 turret. =P
Reps/Vods/Stream, go - you're gonna make Neo & Smash happy, too. I promise. =D
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My comp isn't up to streaming I think, I'll assume vods are the same thing I might be able to get replays but I always thought they were crappy although locis commentated replays were kinda cool.
EDIT: Anyway first udyr game: Singed/Morde/Udyr/Janna/Sivir vs Irelia/Karthus/Noct/Trist/Alistar
Fastforward to the midgame sivir is 0/5 and janna is 0/4 because they fucked up their lane but then sivir started raging at janna and then sivir feeds 3 kills intentionally until theres a fight where she gets 2 kills because she runs into a teamfight where they all chased me and killed me because I thought we were gonna fight but it worked out to be an epic bait (huehue). Then once sivir was being babyed by the whole team telling her where to farm and stuff we get some teamfights and after the first 2 deaths I changed strategy so what I did was
-Bait them into going on me while pretending to take red
-Run off to the side while irelia and noct rush
-Run into trist since I avoided karthus wall
-Trist falls back and karthus too to deal with me, I run off, run back in, they ult+Exhaust me away, I run back in finish them all off because singed has everyone low. Mordes spell vamp and sivir had janna to easily surviev nocts/irelia burst and myself and singed cleaned up their back line
Second big teamfight: We had taken inhib mid and had baron buff but it was gone. We were ahead and looking to dive. Bot tower + inhib, we end up diving when I caught karthus bot and killed him, karthus had just respawned so I was basically going on trist or someone and then running back when she'd get away and start dpsing me. This way I could damage her but not run into her and die. She had like 10 kills so even with randuins and frozen heart she hurt a decent amount. Eventually we clean up their whole team as I constantly screw with trist and do damage and stun a couple other guys who are still in the front (left behind based on my position zoning trist.
They were the 2 main teamfights that I had a big effect it. Another point alistar headbutt pulv'd someone who was flashing or something so he ended up at out mid tower when they were ahead. Singed got a fling onto karthus so I stunned him, started hitting him and then flashed after him and finished him then stunned and R'd trist who also got low from singed poison and mordes ult got her and we proceeded to triple kill off morde ult.
We honestly got very very close to losing what should have been a steamroll, and normally fed tristanas used to be the bane of my life on udyr but I got a bit smarter about things now. I'm not sure if this is just more pointless walls of text though, fuck.
Also, because I placed their team into the AP assassin (kat, ahri, kass, etc, kass and ahri popular on EU so I've run into this before) + 2 bruiser diving team where karthus, irelia, and noct dive into our team so my strategy is to keep their ranged AD under control while trying to DPS their AP assassin once their trist is suitably low. I decided shurelyas mobility wasn't needed since they would be diving into us and ignoring me so I didn't need the hp pool or cdr THAT much. I went hog+regen-->randuins/wits-->frozen heart (trist was really fed). Would possibly have went rageblade or trinity if trist didn't get fed but their bruisers did.
EDIT 2: My final score was 9/2/11 which is pretty standard for my ranked udyr games when I'm first pick. It's pretty ridiculous how bad 1900's (for some reason first picks are roughly 2.1k while last picks are just under 1900) feel right now on my udyr.
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hm ok, so i just picked udyr up and i have a question. the first 2 jungle clears, how do i approach camps..in turtle stance or in phoenix? and do i switch asap they come off cd or do i wait or do i just restance phoenix when its off cd? i felt kinda slow on the first clear. i skill rwre r>w>e>q for now, aspd red, mr blue, armor yellow and ms quints.
items boots+3 start into philo>hog>wits end, is that somehow okay? i read through the thread and there is such great info in here, but most of it is very specific and advanced, since i m new to the jungle i think i m lacking the basics or the common sense to figure out how to clear fastest.
thanks for any answers : -)
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You want the bonus damage from phoenix and keep the passive up. So you approach the camp with turtle, so you have the shield and attack them in phoenix. You need 3 attacks for the phoenix passive to proc, then you go turtle for shield and keeping the passive stacked and immediately back into phoenix. As long as you have blue buff, you can use bear to move around faster, don't waste all your mana for that though.
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Bear is such a minimal speed boost at level one based on the short duration I'd advise just using turtle stance more if you have excesse mana.
You only ever want to use turtle stance for the shield and for keeping your passive stacked. You might get 1 hit or 2 hits while waiting for pheonix cd or you just wanted to use your autohit before having to wait for the pheonix animation but that's about it. You want to get at least 3 hits for pheonix procs (make sure to try to line it up so it hits as many targets as possible).
If you have lots of mana, when you reach the camp use turtle then immediately pheonix and kill it, maybe using 1 more turtle and pheonix if it's early levels on wraiths or something.
If you have less mana just use pheonix to start use 1 turtle and back to finish and finish it.
When you're on buff camps you can choose to either use turtle every cd or just the minimum amount to keep your passive stacked. Depends on mana, again.
It's pretty simple and nonessential but the details can add up. The first clear is a little slow compared to old jungle but it's less than 4 minutes or should be. Your build is fine as well.
In general the turtle shield on hit stuff for regenerating is very rarely used except when in a lane or pushing a tower midgame in a poke war you might want to hit creeps with it to regen up. The shield is core to udyrs play though.
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Erhm... probably a weird question, but what is the reason to pick Udyr in Premade 5n5's?
I feel as if..
a) He doesn't clear exeptionally faster than, say, Nocturne, Shyv or Maokai.
b) His ganks are just flat out horrible once people get wards and even before that they're not that cool.
c) a+b) result in him entering "useless mode" way quicker than in solo q.
Should I get an early Oracle vs seemingly competent people? If so, when? After both gp5 items?
Stealing camps vs proper warding seems like suicide to me, c/d?
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Just farm all day and kill everyone.
You can countergank and do a few ganks early game but generally you want to keep ganks to a minimum anyway. Good players don't get ganked easily anyways. The worse players you play vs the bigger impact ganks will have on the game because people make themselves easy to gank, making maokai and rammus real terrors.
If your opposing jungler ganks a lot and he doesn't get much out of it because you have a hopefully competent team you're going to be far ahead of gold and xp not to mention that it can be really easy to predict where he's going to gank and then kill him because you're like 1-2 levels higher (depends how much you farmed lane)
I said saint said it best when he suggested how to play jungle now
"Say fuck you middle, fuck you bot, and fuck you top lane, and get your farm, 40 gold for big wraith? Yes please!"
Picking udyr for his ganks is pretty stupid, if you wanted ganks jungle annie would be better than udyr.
You just need to rename "useless mode" to "farm mode".
EDIT: You have a really low winrate on udyr so you're just probably doing it wrong all over the place but whatever.
EDIT 2: Trying out replays, randomed udyr in a LP EU normal, unfortunately for them.
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/142086/
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You know, I've played Udyr the most out of any champion and after reading so many guides and posts I've come to the conclusion that there is no one decisive way to build him.
I've tried a bunch of different combinations and so have other people, and I've heard a lot of different things ranging from "gp10 items are core" to "Wit's End is core" to "Phage should be your first early game item" etc.
I honestly can't decide what the "best" way to build him is even after 100 games with Udyr. I do know one thing I do that a lot of people don't do is occasionally get Boots of Swiftness, which combined with Bear stance tends to make ganks work out really well for me and also makes me able to outrun basically everyone.
I don't get Boots of Swiftness every game. If the enemy has enough CC I go Merc Treads, but I find that the mobility with Boots of Swiftness + bear stance is just amazing.
I also like to get 1 point in Tiger stance at level 6 even when I am doing Phoenix Udyr, and when I gank I start with Bear, then Tiger, then immediately switch to Phoenix to get the procs more easily.
Also I always get Wriggles with Udyr. A lot of people say Udyr doesn't need Wriggles but I find it makes for significantly better dragon and baron control.
What are people's thoughts on Udyr with Wriggles?
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Fact is you don't need wriggles for sustain, the AD is sub optimal and the baron control is minimal since udyr is already really good at tanking baron you don't rely on procs that much. Recurve bow is probably just as good for dragon control as well not to mention being better for clearing and fighting in general.
Swiftness is pretty silly because if you aren't getting mercs ninja tabi or cdr boots are just so much better. If you run move quints and movement masteries you really shouldn't be wanting the extra movement speed especially when you have level 5 bear you'd almost want to sell them again. Honestly you can just play boots of mobility rammus or maokai if you like that kind of play.
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Anytime I'd consider Swiftness boots I'd rather get Mobility.
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when he played, jatt's udyr was maybe the best in the game, and he would build swiftness. probably not as worthwhile without nimbleness but still something to keep in mind when discussing +3 boots
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It always seemed to me like udyr doesnt need huge cc to be a great tank. If you keep red buff and maybe build frozen mallet, people are scared of you sticking to them especially if you ganked them earlier, and playing a tank is more about people being scared of you than actually taking damage. You don't have any way to jump on them except flash so its more about keeping their squishies away from yours while also peeling dudes. Thats what i thought at least...but im low elo so who knows
Also if you arent doing phoenix in battle why buy wits end?
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On January 15 2012 01:00 Slayer91 wrote:Just farm all day and kill everyone. You can countergank and do a few ganks early game but generally you want to keep ganks to a minimum anyway. Good players don't get ganked easily anyways. The worse players you play vs the bigger impact ganks will have on the game because people make themselves easy to gank, making maokai and rammus real terrors. If your opposing jungler ganks a lot and he doesn't get much out of it because you have a hopefully competent team you're going to be far ahead of gold and xp not to mention that it can be really easy to predict where he's going to gank and then kill him because you're like 1-2 levels higher (depends how much you farmed lane) I said saint said it best when he suggested how to play jungle now "Say fuck you middle, fuck you bot, and fuck you top lane, and get your farm, 40 gold for big wraith? Yes please!" Picking udyr for his ganks is pretty stupid, if you wanted ganks jungle annie would be better than udyr. You just need to rename "useless mode" to "farm mode". EDIT: You have a really low winrate on udyr so you're just probably doing it wrong all over the place but whatever.EDIT 2: Trying out replays, randomed udyr in a LP EU normal, unfortunately for them. http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/142086/
Yeah, Udyr is like the bane of my jungling. Was the same crap in S1 (5-11 stats). Considering im at 55%+ and sometimes way above with every single other fucking jungler it's annoying the crap out of me that I suck at Udyr so much. Brodyr and Lee are what I'm trying to improve with atm.
Edit: Heal smite? u trollin or srs? :S
Edit2: Is that wolves -> blue -> wraith -> wolves your standard route atm?
Edit3: LOL THAT REPLAY HELPED. I never knew brodyr can tank towers like that, nor tried to be #1 cs when playing him. tl;dr: Farm & dive = teutonica mode for a reason. Cheers. <3
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EPT
