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Picked up Udyr, very impressed with how fun he is. A few questions, though.
1) Via guides, I've been going Armor 5pot -> Merc Treads -> Wit's -> Tanky items (SV, Aegis/FoN/Randuin's) -> situational. AS Reds, Armor Yellows, MR Blues, AD Quints (will be MS once I grind the IP for them). Look good enough?
2) Been doing Phoenix Jungle mostly, very beastly. RWRE - R > W > E > Q. Seems standard, but is there any reason you don't level Bear until later? Yeah, the sustain is nice, but the MS boost from Bear seems really strong.
3) How does Tiger work? Can I just use the same build but switch R and Q? Will probably need Wriggles, I'd imagine. What are the pros/cons between Jungle Tiger/Phoenix?
4) Tiger seems crazy good in Dominion, Udyr being Udyr means he's tanky enough to survive and the Tiger burst can wreck people, with Bear allowing you to get from A to B quickly. Anyone play him there and have tips?
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1) I don't really see the reason to start cloth anymore, if you get any sort of leash on blue you end up still being really safe with boots + 3 and it advances your build. Otherwise i like that build you listed... I sometimes get Trinity in there somewhere if I get ahead.
2) I get bear if I see an obvious gank opportunity at level 2 or 3... but most of the time since you clear so quickly I don't think you really need it till 4.
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Tiger is best for laning, as it's single target dot you only need to hit the enemy onces, the down side is in the new jungle AOE is king and phoenix clear times are much faster than Tiger and you come out with higher HP and mana as less turtles are needed to keep you up. The MS boost is good but with MS quints you're already faster than anything and if you need more than rank 1 bear you probably went for a bad gank anyways, but in the end it's all about jungle clearing speed which can keep udyr on par with solo lanes and later on even pass them.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 06 2012 02:53 NotSorry wrote:
Tiger is best for laning, as it's single target dot you only need to hit the enemy onces, the down side is in the new jungle AOE is king and phoenix clear times are much faster than Tiger and you come out with higher HP and mana as less turtles are needed to keep you up. The MS boost is good but with MS quints you're already faster than anything and if you need more than rank 1 bear you probably went for a bad gank anyways, but in the end it's all about jungle clearing speed which can keep udyr on par with solo lanes and later on even pass them.
Phoenix laning is actually really good. Hotshot was playing it quite a bit in scrims and tournament matches a while back. You don't have the same straight up burst-damage that Tiger does, but you have way better creep control, and do a lot of free incidental AoE damage to melee top laners.
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I feel Phoenix might push the lane too hard? Yeah, the incidental damage and pressure is nice, but I'd think you're putting points in Phoenix when you can't be in it without pushing hard/messing up last hits. Of course, I could be wrong, but if you're trying to farm top, you don't want to be at their tower 100% of the time.
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On January 06 2012 02:35 Requizen wrote:
Picked up Udyr, very impressed with how fun he is. A few questions, though.
1) Via guides, I've been going Armor 5pot -> Merc Treads -> Wit's -> Tanky items (SV, Aegis/FoN/Randuin's) -> situational. AS Reds, Armor Yellows, MR Blues, AD Quints (will be MS once I grind the IP for them). Look good enough?
2) Been doing Phoenix Jungle mostly, very beastly. RWRE - R > W > E > Q. Seems standard, but is there any reason you don't level Bear until later? Yeah, the sustain is nice, but the MS boost from Bear seems really strong.
3) How does Tiger work? Can I just use the same build but switch R and Q? Will probably need Wriggles, I'd imagine. What are the pros/cons between Jungle Tiger/Phoenix?
4) Tiger seems crazy good in Dominion, Udyr being Udyr means he's tanky enough to survive and the Tiger burst can wreck people, with Bear allowing you to get from A to B quickly. Anyone play him there and have tips?
1. Boots+3 or Regrowth+1pot (if you plan on getting regrowth, which I think is unnecessary) best starts. Cloth is so unnecessary now with jungle changes and wriggles isn't all that great on Udyr so the cloth is a bit of a dead end for quite some time. I get Mercs first item, then Spirit Visage (optional) cause it's a nice hp boost, cdr is great on Udyr, and the MR+passive is strong as well. Follow up with Wit's End into tanky shit. I personally like Frozen Heart because the passive is great, cdr is awesome, and the mana boost helps for your midgame before all your core skills are maxed and still cost a good chunk of mana. For magic res, nothing beats FoN.
2. Phoenix jungle>tiger jungle. Faster clear times. You get E at 4 because turtle at level 2 mitigates a ton of damage and lets you clear safer. E max after W max because a 200+ hp shield is absolutely nothing to laugh at in the midgame, where it's the strongest. With W max you can dive towers pretty well. Bear stance is used primarily for its stun; the movement speed boost is good, but its main purpose is the stun. Also, Turtle stance gives you a shitton of EHP if you spam it in fights. With CDR, it can be as low as a ~3 second cooldown. So it's basically a 200+ hp self-heal that's unaffected by ignite. The real debate with Phoenix Udyr skill builds is whether to max E or Q.
3. Tiger is stronger single target burst/damage. Since jungle is all about aoe, Phoenix is better. Tiger's more for laning, but even then Phoenix is pretty good in lane too. Pushing isn't too much of a problem since a lot of top solos aren't very good at csing under tower so you deny them a lot of cs. With good warding, ganks shouldn't be too bad since you have Turtle and Bear. If the jungler camps your lane you might have some trouble, but that's true for pretty much every laner.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 06 2012 03:24 Requizen wrote:
I feel Phoenix might push the lane too hard? Yeah, the incidental damage and pressure is nice, but I'd think you're putting points in Phoenix when you can't be in it without pushing hard/messing up last hits. Of course, I could be wrong, but if you're trying to farm top, you don't want to be at their tower 100% of the time.
I mean, it's the same mentality as someone like Morgana or Sion in mid lane. You push the lane fast enough that you don't put yourself at too much risk, and at the same time it opens up the ability for you to do other things while the other laner has to deal with your creeps.
Pushing the lane is only a bad thing insofar as poor players do it blindly. There are plenty of strong champ kits based around utilizing their strong pushing power (Morgana and Sion already mentioned, but also someone like Tristana bot lane).
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On January 06 2012 03:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 03:24 Requizen wrote:
I feel Phoenix might push the lane too hard? Yeah, the incidental damage and pressure is nice, but I'd think you're putting points in Phoenix when you can't be in it without pushing hard/messing up last hits. Of course, I could be wrong, but if you're trying to farm top, you don't want to be at their tower 100% of the time. I mean, it's the same mentality as someone like Morgana or Sion in mid lane. You push the lane fast enough that you don't put yourself at too much risk, and at the same time it opens up the ability for you to do other things while the other laner has to deal with your creeps. Pushing the lane is only a bad thing insofar as poor players do it blindly. There are plenty of strong champ kits based around utilizing their strong pushing power (Morgana and Sion already mentioned, but also someone like Tristana bot lane).
Interesting. As I'm usually Riven or GP top (Riven has good pushing potential, but I generally just farm with her to become godmode), I'm usually just sitting for a while getting CS and harassing. What do you normally do once you push the lane? Invade jungle and gank mid?
I never really thought of it that way. Single target lane opponents (like Jax, Trynd, or GP), can't really push back, leaves a good amount of time to wander and roam. Must try in next match.
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United States4054 Posts
Others have already addressed Tiger vs Phoenix issue. I'll just add a few points:
-You'll want AD reds/quints for tiger. (tiger scales off AD, phoenix off AS.) You need wriggles for tiger jungle, and skip Wit's End.
-You get bear when you expect to gank. Full clear used to give you 4, so RWRE was a no brainer. Now, if you want to gank before you hit 4, you can always go RWE and gank with double buffs + boots.
-Otherwise W > E; remember you get mana reduction for higher levels AND more shield + health/mana return per hit. You have no innate lifesteal or mana regen (no wriggle or philo) so it's important. In lane it's often a good idea to max turtle first, regardless of tiger or phoenix.
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How exactly do you build Laning Tiger Udyr? Wriggles, Triforce, tank items? Or should you go Wriggles -> Atmog's/Fratmas?
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United States37500 Posts
Either is acceptable on Lane Tigerdyr. Atmog (with FoN later) is obviously more tanky. Trinity/Wit's End is more bursty dps. Depends on your role for your team.
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Apparently a cool trick you can do with tiger udyr is proc a tiger, switch to bear and you get stun and a tiger proc, and can then immediately proc a tiger again for a double proc stun.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 06 2012 06:02 NeoIllusions wrote:
Either is acceptable on Lane Tigerdyr. Atmog (with FoN later) is obviously more tanky. Trinity/Wit's End is more bursty dps. Depends on your role for your team.
I actually really dislike Atmogs on Tigerdyr. Turtle gives you insane effective HP, so Warmog's is a retarded survivability item to buy on Udyr for the same reason it is on Warwick: resists scale your survivability so much harder. Even if you're building tanky, you get way more value out of plain resist or resist/CDR items like Visage, GA or FHeart than you would from Warmog's.
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United States4054 Posts
On January 06 2012 06:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 06:02 NeoIllusions wrote:
Either is acceptable on Lane Tigerdyr. Atmog (with FoN later) is obviously more tanky. Trinity/Wit's End is more bursty dps. Depends on your role for your team. I actually really dislike Atmogs on Tigerdyr. Turtle gives you insane effective HP, so Warmog's is a retarded survivability item to buy on Udyr for the same reason it is on Warwick: resists scale your survivability so much harder. Even if you're building tanky, you get way more value out of plain resist or resist/CDR items like Visage, GA or FHeart than you would from Warmog's.
Yea agree, if you need HP it's better to build items like Aegis and HoG/Randuins and eventually Phage. As lanedyr you can easily cap CDR with spirit visage and frozen heart, which makes your turtle's even godlier. The most "balanced" 6-item build is Mercs, Wriggle, Trinity, Aegis, Visage, and HoG/Randuins/Frozen Heart. Obviously you should adapt it, and if game goes longer you start getting FoN and other big ticket items.
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Watching some players, I see them get HoG and Philo before Wit's. Is it more just for tankiness over damage early on or what?
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On January 06 2012 06:04 Two_DoWn wrote:
Apparently a cool trick you can do with tiger udyr is proc a tiger, switch to bear and you get stun and a tiger proc, and can then immediately proc a tiger again for a double proc stun.
I'm pretty sure you can't double proc tiger. So if you proc tiger, switch to bear, use the tiger proc+stun then immediately switch back to tiger for the next hit you override the previous tiger proc. Since tiger proc damage is dealt over 2 seconds, the first tiger proc won't do full damage, but you'll still do more damage overall by charging tiger then using bear->tiger than just going bear->tiger.
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United States4054 Posts
On January 06 2012 06:33 Requizen wrote:
Watching some players, I see them get HoG and Philo before Wit's. Is it more just for tankiness over damage early on or what?
Assuming jungle:
You have Merc Threads and that's it. It's really tough to get 1050g for a Recurve Bow at that stage in the game. You'll often base with 500-900g and not be able to buy anything, and MR mantle doesn't do anything for you. At this point getting HoG is not a bad idea; you delay Recurve Bow even longer but you get extra tankiness and the gold income can slightly offset the delay in farm.
Philo on jungle Udyr is weak (unlike Skarner, Udyr doesn't rely on Shurelia). It's possible to get it in lane if you really need the sustain, if you play the farm-for-20-min style, but I prefer other items.
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Yeah jungle. I figured Philo was kinda bad given Turtle does the same thing but better (and free, ofc), but maybe I'll consider HoG from time to time.
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On January 06 2012 06:40 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 06:33 Requizen wrote:
Watching some players, I see them get HoG and Philo before Wit's. Is it more just for tankiness over damage early on or what? Assuming jungle: You have Merc Threads and that's it. It's really tough to get 1050g for a Recurve Bow at that stage in the game. You'll often base with 500-900g and not be able to buy anything, and MR mantle doesn't do anything for you. At this point getting HoG is not a bad idea; you delay Recurve Bow even longer but you get extra tankiness and the gold income can slightly offset the delay in farm. Philo on jungle Udyr is weak (unlike Skarner, Udyr doesn't rely on Shurelia). It's possible to get it in lane if you really need the sustain, if you play the farm-for-20-min style, but I prefer other items.
Instead of getting HoG, I prefer to work towards a Spirit Visage. The passive is decent for your turtle and the cdr is amazing on Udyr as it gives you more ehp by letting get more Turtle shields in.
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United States4054 Posts
On January 06 2012 06:47 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 06:40 Sandster wrote:On January 06 2012 06:33 Requizen wrote:
Watching some players, I see them get HoG and Philo before Wit's. Is it more just for tankiness over damage early on or what? Assuming jungle: You have Merc Threads and that's it. It's really tough to get 1050g for a Recurve Bow at that stage in the game. You'll often base with 500-900g and not be able to buy anything, and MR mantle doesn't do anything for you. At this point getting HoG is not a bad idea; you delay Recurve Bow even longer but you get extra tankiness and the gold income can slightly offset the delay in farm. Philo on jungle Udyr is weak (unlike Skarner, Udyr doesn't rely on Shurelia). It's possible to get it in lane if you really need the sustain, if you play the farm-for-20-min style, but I prefer other items. Instead of getting HoG, I prefer to work towards a Spirit Visage. The passive is decent for your turtle and the cdr is amazing on Udyr as it gives you more ehp by letting get more Turtle shields in.
You don't have enough mana and turtle/phoenix levels at that point in the game to make use of the CDR. HoG is free gold and gives you similar sustain to Kindlegem. Visage is good, but generally an item you get after Wit's End. HoG is the only item I'd consider buying before Wit's.
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EPT
