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On January 06 2012 06:51 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 06:47 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 06 2012 06:40 Sandster wrote:On January 06 2012 06:33 Requizen wrote:
Watching some players, I see them get HoG and Philo before Wit's. Is it more just for tankiness over damage early on or what? Assuming jungle: You have Merc Threads and that's it. It's really tough to get 1050g for a Recurve Bow at that stage in the game. You'll often base with 500-900g and not be able to buy anything, and MR mantle doesn't do anything for you. At this point getting HoG is not a bad idea; you delay Recurve Bow even longer but you get extra tankiness and the gold income can slightly offset the delay in farm. Philo on jungle Udyr is weak (unlike Skarner, Udyr doesn't rely on Shurelia). It's possible to get it in lane if you really need the sustain, if you play the farm-for-20-min style, but I prefer other items. Instead of getting HoG, I prefer to work towards a Spirit Visage. The passive is decent for your turtle and the cdr is amazing on Udyr as it gives you more ehp by letting get more Turtle shields in. You don't have enough mana and turtle/phoenix levels at that point in the game to make use of the CDR. HoG is free gold and gives you similar sustain to Kindlegem. Visage is good, but generally an item you get after Wit's End. HoG is the only item I'd consider buying before Wit's.
Generally by the time I get visage my phoenix/turtle is max or near max. Once you get lvl 3+ of your skills they're relatively spammable. Hog doesn't give sustain...not sure what you meant by that. Also, the timing for your kindlegem/visage is usually when you start contesting dragon and kindlegem/visage is much better for your fighting capabilities than hog imo.
If I skip visage (because I got good ganks off and based with like 1k gold or the other team is pure AD or w/e) and go straight for Wit's, I just ignore visage altogether. Visage is more efficient the earlier you get it because its item slot efficiency drops off as there are better cdr/hp/mres items later in the game and the passive isn't nearly as useful since sustain isn't as important as survivability the later the game goes.
Basically, my reasoning behind getting visage is to boost my early-mid game presence since a good early-mid game can really propel you into being an unstoppable force lategame. HoG weakens your early-mid game relative to visage and focuses more on the later stages of the game.
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On January 06 2012 07:01 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 06:51 Sandster wrote:On January 06 2012 06:47 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 06 2012 06:40 Sandster wrote:On January 06 2012 06:33 Requizen wrote:
Watching some players, I see them get HoG and Philo before Wit's. Is it more just for tankiness over damage early on or what? Assuming jungle: You have Merc Threads and that's it. It's really tough to get 1050g for a Recurve Bow at that stage in the game. You'll often base with 500-900g and not be able to buy anything, and MR mantle doesn't do anything for you. At this point getting HoG is not a bad idea; you delay Recurve Bow even longer but you get extra tankiness and the gold income can slightly offset the delay in farm. Philo on jungle Udyr is weak (unlike Skarner, Udyr doesn't rely on Shurelia). It's possible to get it in lane if you really need the sustain, if you play the farm-for-20-min style, but I prefer other items. Instead of getting HoG, I prefer to work towards a Spirit Visage. The passive is decent for your turtle and the cdr is amazing on Udyr as it gives you more ehp by letting get more Turtle shields in. You don't have enough mana and turtle/phoenix levels at that point in the game to make use of the CDR. HoG is free gold and gives you similar sustain to Kindlegem. Visage is good, but generally an item you get after Wit's End. HoG is the only item I'd consider buying before Wit's. Generally by the time I get visage my phoenix/turtle is max or near max. Once you get lvl 3+ of your skills they're relatively spammable. Hog doesn't give sustain...not sure what you meant by that. Also, the timing for your kindlegem/visage is usually when you start contesting dragon and kindlegem/visage is much better for your fighting capabilities than hog imo. If I skip visage (because I got good ganks off and based with like 1k gold or the other team is pure AD or w/e) and go straight for Wit's, I just ignore visage altogether. Visage is more efficient the earlier you get it because its item slot efficiency drops off as there are better cdr/hp/mres items later in the game and the passive isn't nearly as useful since sustain isn't as important as survivability the later the game goes. Basically, my reasoning behind getting visage is to boost my early-mid game presence since a good early-mid game can really propel you into being an unstoppable force lategame. HoG weakens your early-mid game relative to visage and focuses more on the later stages of the game.
I don't get this logic - Visage costs the same as Wit's End so given the option you always get Wit's End. The question is the CDR of a Kindlegem vs the extra hp and gp5 of a HoG (which you will build into Randuins) vs buying nothing and waiting for Recurve Bow.
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So I don't really understand the logic behind ever getting a SV on Udyr. When I clear mini-camps I almost never get more than a few auto-attacks off in turtle stance so the lifesteal boost seems really underwhelming. I would rather spend the 1k gold on the recurve bow and attack in turtle faster to aid sustain (and also increase dps) than boost the lifesteal by 15%. CDR is good and all but if you were after the health i'd rather have the HoG. I don't think it is bad or anything... I just don't understand how it boosts your early-mid game.
I also find that with mercs + buliding wit's I have plenty of MR for early game, and in my experience getting an early recurve into wit's end seems to be the biggest early-mid game boost available.
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On January 06 2012 07:16 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 07:01 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 06 2012 06:51 Sandster wrote:On January 06 2012 06:47 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 06 2012 06:40 Sandster wrote:On January 06 2012 06:33 Requizen wrote:
Watching some players, I see them get HoG and Philo before Wit's. Is it more just for tankiness over damage early on or what? Assuming jungle: You have Merc Threads and that's it. It's really tough to get 1050g for a Recurve Bow at that stage in the game. You'll often base with 500-900g and not be able to buy anything, and MR mantle doesn't do anything for you. At this point getting HoG is not a bad idea; you delay Recurve Bow even longer but you get extra tankiness and the gold income can slightly offset the delay in farm. Philo on jungle Udyr is weak (unlike Skarner, Udyr doesn't rely on Shurelia). It's possible to get it in lane if you really need the sustain, if you play the farm-for-20-min style, but I prefer other items. Instead of getting HoG, I prefer to work towards a Spirit Visage. The passive is decent for your turtle and the cdr is amazing on Udyr as it gives you more ehp by letting get more Turtle shields in. You don't have enough mana and turtle/phoenix levels at that point in the game to make use of the CDR. HoG is free gold and gives you similar sustain to Kindlegem. Visage is good, but generally an item you get after Wit's End. HoG is the only item I'd consider buying before Wit's. Generally by the time I get visage my phoenix/turtle is max or near max. Once you get lvl 3+ of your skills they're relatively spammable. Hog doesn't give sustain...not sure what you meant by that. Also, the timing for your kindlegem/visage is usually when you start contesting dragon and kindlegem/visage is much better for your fighting capabilities than hog imo. If I skip visage (because I got good ganks off and based with like 1k gold or the other team is pure AD or w/e) and go straight for Wit's, I just ignore visage altogether. Visage is more efficient the earlier you get it because its item slot efficiency drops off as there are better cdr/hp/mres items later in the game and the passive isn't nearly as useful since sustain isn't as important as survivability the later the game goes. Basically, my reasoning behind getting visage is to boost my early-mid game presence since a good early-mid game can really propel you into being an unstoppable force lategame. HoG weakens your early-mid game relative to visage and focuses more on the later stages of the game. I don't get this logic - Visage costs the same as Wit's End so given the option you always get Wit's End. The question is the CDR of a Kindlegem vs the extra hp and gp5 of a HoG (which you will build into Randuins) vs buying nothing and waiting for Recurve Bow.
visage is 450 cheaper than wit's end and the individual components are very cheap and are all strong individually. The benefit of kindlegem and the extra magic res from the mantle is, imo, much more worth it than HoG, which is cost-ineffective. Buying HoG is essentially setting you back a couple hundred gold in the early game in order to set you up for a stronger late game. I'd rather buy Kindlegem and be able to build it into a Visage, which is an amazing early game item. Like, the passive is nice, but I'm really just buying Visage for the cdr/hp/mres. You also can't underestimate the boost in survivability the extra magic resistance gives you. With Visage+Mercs+Turtle you barely take any damage from magic sources in the early-mid game.
HoG v. Kindlegem is basically whether you value 50 hp or 10% cdr. I like 10% cdr.
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To me, the health regen boost is just a gravy. The meat of it is health, MR, and CDR. If the enemy has double AP (Rumble top and regular mid, for instance), you're nigh-invincible. That said, I like Wit's first followed by Aegis before SV.
Sidetrack time: so, as a new player, how and when should I switch stances for highest efficiency? Like, as soon as the previous active wears off, or after X amount of hits, or what?
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On January 06 2012 07:26 Requizen wrote:
To me, the health regen boost is just a gravy. The meat of it is health, MR, and CDR. If the enemy has double AP (Rumble top and regular mid, for instance), you're nigh-invincible. That said, I like Wit's first followed by Aegis before SV.
Sidetrack time: so, as a new player, how and when should I switch stances for highest efficiency? Like, as soon as the previous active wears off, or after X amount of hits, or what?
If going Phoenix, try to get the aoe phoenix proc before switching stances, but generally you just want to spam Turtle-Phoenix/Tiger-Bear over and over as soon as they're off cooldown. The cooldown on Bear stance's stun is 6 seconds, which means you want to fit in 2 other stances between every Bear stance. Turtle you want to use on cooldown asap since the shield is amazing ehp. For Tiger/Phoenix you jsut use it whenever Turtle/Bear is on cooldown. Like I said earlier, getting the phoenix aoe proc is nice if you can manage it, but sometimes the turtle shield or bear stun is more useful than the aoe proc. Tiger is more straightforward as you just use it, then switch to something else when you can since the proc can carry over to other stances.
In small skirmishes or if turtle isn't necessary, you can go Bear->Phoenix->Tiger->Bear or some iteration of your damage dealing stances, but in 4v4/5v5 teamfights the turtle stance shield is a necessity for maximizing your survivability.
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Since it doesn't look like I'm convincing you against SV I'll just say this: If I have 1000+ gold I will never buy anything other than Recurve Bow on Udyr. It's just too strong.
I will also never buy Kindlegem, because it forces me to buy a SV, otherwise it's just setting me back from buying Wit's End.
I will, however, buy HoG if I can't afford Recurve Bow and I can wait on Recurve Bow for another 800g. 99% of the time I will build Merc/Wits/Randuins or Tabi/Wits/Aegis, and having Merc/Wits/HoG/ChainVest+ is a great mix of stats.
I have never had a game where I had only boots and HoG and thought, damnit, if only I had a Kindlegem. Nor have I ever had boots/HoG/Recurve bow and though, if only I had a Spirit Visage.
On January 06 2012 07:26 Requizen wrote:
Sidetrack time: so, as a new player, how and when should I switch stances for highest efficiency? Like, as soon as the previous active wears off, or after X amount of hits, or what?
General rule: in jungle, proc phoenix 3x (try to position so the cone hits all creep) then switch to turtle until phoenix is off cd. Only use bear to run around the jungle if you have blue buff.
In combat, your #1 priority is to keep up turtle shield. After that, decide if you need to stun 1 target or multiple. If only 1, rotate between W>E>R. If multiple than you will do very little damage and generally can only switch between W>E or E>R. Using both R and Q is rare unless you have absolutely no need for turtle, which is why so many people delay Q as long as possible.
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On January 06 2012 07:36 Sandster wrote:
Since it doesn't look like I'm convincing you against SV I'll just say this: If I have 1000+ gold I will never buy anything other than Recurve Bow on Udyr. It's just too strong.
I will also never buy Kindlegem, because it forces me to buy a SV, otherwise it's just setting me back from buying Wit's End.
I will, however, buy HoG if I can't afford Recurve Bow and I can wait on Recurve Bow for another 800g. 99% of the time I will build Merc/Wits/Randuins or Tabi/Wits/Aegis, and having Merc/Wits/HoG/ChainVest+ is a great mix of stats.
I have never had a game where I had only boots and HoG and thought, damnit, if only I had a Kindlegem. Nor have I ever had boots/HoG/Recurve bow and though, if only I had a Spirit Visage.
If I have over 1k gold getting recurve is a no-brainer imo. I'm discussing situations where it's not practical to save up or you can't buy recurve on your first few buys.
I'm not saying HoG is bad, it's just that the choice of HoG v. Kindlegem (into visage) isn't necessarily favoring HoG in all situations. I do get HoG from time to time; I get HoG as often as I get Kindlegem; I never get both HoG and Kindlegem. If the other team has a lot of sources of magic damage or if I plan on skirmishing a lot early game (dragons and buffs, etc...) because the cdr/health/mres/passive Visage provides is much stronger than the 250 hp and gold/10 HoG provides in those situations. Yes, Visage will delay your Wit's 725 gold compared to getting HoG, but in the situations where I do opt for Kindlegem over HoG it's worth it.
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Regarding Kindlegem, like previously mentioned in this thread, it also builds into Shurelya's Reverie, which is a decent item on Udyr as far as I understand it. So you're not forced into SV. The Philosopher's Stone needed for Reverie helps with mana and allows you to get around without blue buff more easily, allowing your AP carry to have it.
Slayer91 gets both Philo and HoG fairly early iirc. While this gives a nice health and regen boost, in my relatively limited experience this does delay Udyr's offensive capabilities by quite a bit, as you're down roughly 2800 gold (1200ish for Mercs, 825 for HoG, 800ish for Philo) on non-offensive items. Not to mention the wards a jungler is expected to place for his team. So I reckon this is more of a long-term build/farming, reaping the bonus gold and eventually building both Reverie and Randuin's. Though the health from HoG does help with survivability of course.
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I know a lot of people don't play Dominion anymore, but what do people usually run there? I've been starting Merc Treads + Potions for early game resist and CC reduction, get Wits into tank items and going Tiger, but I suspect this is somewhat subpar.
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Wits End is great for Phoenix Udyr, because of the proc you get on every 3rd attack. Tiger scales well with attack damage, so I reckon you'll want to build that rather than attack speed. Something like Brutaliser and/or Prospector's blade into tank items perhaps. I don't have any experience with Tiger Udyr though, so it's just theory to me.
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anyone know why oddones using tiger over phoenix lately in jungle? What runes do you guys run for both? I'm currently using AS/Armor/MR18/MS for tiger and opening either regen pendant or boots. I like getting philo and hog early just like skarner but I feel like getting a bow asap should be the priority.
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On January 12 2012 17:44 zulu_nation8 wrote:
anyone know why oddones using tiger over phoenix lately in jungle? What runes do you guys run for both? I'm currently using AS/Armor/MR18/MS for tiger and opening either regen pendant or boots. I like getting philo and hog early just like skarner but I feel like getting a bow asap should be the priority.
he probably read this post, huehuehue:
On December 02 2011 05:33 gtrsrs wrote:
the new udyr is tiger again
zerkers -> zeal -> MS masteries -> run into their jungle, kill their big buff in 1 seconds, run out. starve them of all buffs, farm your jungle or gank when their buffs are down, rinse and repeat
it's godlike
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not gonna ever get zerker to zeal no matter waht
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how do you get the most procs off of tiger udyr?
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On January 12 2012 20:34 zulu_nation8 wrote:
how do you get the most procs off of tiger udyr?
What you mean?
The tiger stance dot?
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i read somewhere you can proc tiger twice or something?
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On January 12 2012 23:00 zulu_nation8 wrote:
i read somewhere you can proc tiger twice or something?
I assume you mean precharging the buff.
The way you gank with tigers is you activate tiger stance before you go in and than you activate bear as you go in.So when you hit your target you will apply the tiger dot to him as well as the maul from bear stance if you were quick enough and timed it right.From than on you switch back to Tiger stance and hit your target with another tigers.
So yea essentially you will place 2 procs of tiger stance onto the target very quick and it does a hell of a lot of damage,because the initial stance proc is not lost when you go into a different stance.
This is why I always preffered to take a point into tiger stance at lvl 8 or 10 when jungling with phoenix.Same as above you precharge the tiger stance proc,go in to bears,hit the target and than imidiately switch into phoenix.
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In what situations do you find Tiger to be a decent choice over Phoenix?
From what I can tell, Tiger has harder-hitting ganks, but Phoenix clears faster, and that's about it, since you spend most of your time post-laning in Turtle and Bear stances.
Wouldn't Tiger technically be better for single target (proc and AS), and therefore be better late game for Dragon/Baron control?
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I honestly think spirit visage is not great on udyr when you can get shurelyas which is basically just way better. Gives you health and mana regen, more health, more CDR and a teamwide movement speed boost. If I want magic resist I'll just get force of nature since it synergizes better with him.
I have tried the mercs-->wits end rush and I dislike it. Udyr does not need damage early on. Level 9 udyr hits like a truck anyway. More importantly, in teamfights and ganks, you're always the one who needs to be tanky to be effective. I have found that having the regen of philo and health of hog lets stay full health and have higher health pool which snowballs to getting an udyr turtle stance or so in tower dives, so your tower dive potential is massively higher and also in fights you're less likely to die. Getting a recurve bow is great but with the way jungle is having 2 gold items lets you farm tremendously and you can't do damage as udyr until you become tanky enough that you can run into their squishies without dying.
Also, I keep hearing this whole "Pheonix spends most of its time in turtle and bear" this is not true, or shouldn't be. The only case I do this is when I'm initiating and I just need to lock down their team and take less damage than their tank so it forces a fight and whatever damage I could do with pheonix stance is vastly overshadowed by the benefits of running away from damage and using turtle to soak damage while your team does all the damage by chaining off your bear stun.
Pheonix stance does more damage than tiger stance as long as you get at least 1 pheonix proc and the whole 5 seconds of AoE damage. It also gives you a slight boost to the turtle stance shield. The pheonix math works out to be a roughly 100 damage AD steriod although it's magic so it doesn't scale great with crit.
I generally figure out every game whether I want philo or not because it does delay the recurve and health isn't optimal as a stat on udyr so If i don't really want shurelyas or don't think I want to farm gold I'll go hog+health beads (randuin recipe, I feel health regen is really important it saves on pots so you only use them in fights) and then get recurve-->mercs-->wits end.
Also, always start boots+3 on udyr. You have so much threat and options. If you get cloth or regrowth you have to back 2-3 times instead of being able to chain clear jungle and gank whenever an opportunity opens up. I only back when I have over 800 gold.
Also, wits end is just as good for tiger udyr, some people seem to forget that it gives like 42 or so magic damage per hit which is as good as attack damage except it doesn't crit. Bruisers don't really get much crit anyway, maybe a trinity or an atmas. I have no idea why you'd get hexdrinker over wits end for udyr honestly. His AD ratio on Q procs is 1.5 given, but his AD ratio on auto hits is 1.0 so your damage on wits end with both the AS and the AD is much better. Besides hexdrinker proc scales unfavourably with your turtle shield since they both have limited duration you generally want regen or more resists to scale with turtle shield.
I actually play skarner with wriggles+wits end and not many hp items and udyr with philo+hog. I have no idea why you'd do the reverse. Skarner to me is good when he defending squishier targets where your slow is great and your shield stays up most of the time and your heal gets procced and your ultimate is your main initiate but after that I tend to stay back. It's easier to focus skarner because all his stuff relies on not taking too much damage and constantly attacking both of which are harder to pull off when you're diving them. On udyr you have all the tools to run around at max speed and spam shields at much lower cd when not hitting when you're running around chasing squishies. If they all turn to focus you, you have a much easier time getting away and not losing much hp while skarner can't quite get away with that. Meanwhile skarner does more damage and his W and E are effective even when he takes no damage and his slow is incredibly useful.
Also, I almost never ward on udyr. Udyr is extremely farm reliant and I spend most of my time farming jungle and watching lanes for potential counter ganks or to hold my mid lane when he ganks. Obviously I'll take ganks on likely kill lanes when they over extend but I won't risk ganks that have a low chance of killing even if it's likely I'll burn their flash. The laners should take care of wards. They have a higher gold income and going to lanes to ward wastes so much farm time and lets their jungler gain some extra control because you're going to lanes just to ward and if they warded their jungler knows the opposite side of the map is free to tower dive while you aren't even going to gank the lane you're warding. The only time I ward on udyr is to ward their blue/red/wraith brush or offensive warding in general.
Spirit visage, although the stats it gives aren't BAD it's just that it really isn't high cost efficiency. You can assume you never use the extra lifesteal/regen on it unless you have soraka or something. It was efficient back when it was like 1200 gold but now it's really only worth buying on people who heal a lot like swain, warwick or maokai for example.
If you want magic resist and health, just get the health crystal and null magic and build an aegis. It's insanely cost effective and only costs a couple hundred more. If you want magic resist and sustainability with turtle stance, force of nature is ridiculously good. You can run from an AoE fest like morgana ult and come out with 60%, and then run back in get 3 kills and be at 70% hp. (this is with shurelyas randuins and fon + wits, so you're incredibly farmed and have 3 health regen items and ridiculous resists, but this is the time of items I get in a 30-40 minute udyr game. The gold items combined with constant farming lanes and jungle, kills+assists with usually 0-1 death for the first 20 minutes or so give you insane levels and gold advantage over their team.
Also, another reason why I like philo and hog is not just because of the early farming stage with gold/10 being good, while the later stage you're a beast with 2 of the best udyr items shurelyas and randuins, also the philo regen and the hog health is just amazing early on. A huge threat early on is something like an AP carry insta bursting you or dying in counter ganks or tower dives. Having enough mana to keep using your stances and being full health going into fights as well as higher hp pool is actually FAR better than a recurve bow for jungling early on in my experienece. The main reason I like recurve is actually because I jungle faster but I think the extra gp/10 and stronger early ganks/teamfighting makes gold/10 much better, or if I believe philo-->shurelyas is not optimal just getting a hog+health regen to increase your midgame power slightly since you get your mercs and wits and randuins faster.
Sorry this post is a massive mess but my internet has been down for a while so I missed tons of posts in this thread and its on my best champion so I figure its the one I should be most active in.
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EPT
