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Hi Brötchenholer,
I have similar problems playing udyr as you, namely that I feel the ganks are weak.
But I do have one thing to change in your build, get Wit's End, its is a relatively cheap (2000 Gold) item that gives you attack speed, which phoenix udyr loves and it gives you enough Mr for mid game so you don't have to build that. For Armour I get Raduins Omen most of the time, if oyu buy it don't forget to use the active, its a slow that works really well with the rest of his kit as you can get more stuns and phoenix procs off.
I haven't tried the new jungle so I can't really tell you when you can go b to buy what but you have to remember that even if you don't kill someone a gank can still tilt the favor of the lane towards your buddy if the opponent has to use flash or loses a chunk of health.
Also buy wards as a jungler and put them at critical places, the support guide has a lot of good pictures. Theoretically Dragon control and later baron is your job as jungler. Also if you do gank or see someone walk through your wards always ping to let the lanemate know, sometimes you just space out farming and don't look at the minimap etc and that is why there are no successful ganks.
One last thing, always try to do dragon, it gives a hefty 190 gold and lot of xp (I heard in the new jungle xp is hard to come by). Especially in lower levels / elo people never try to do dragon, but it is so strong and very important. Even if you feel you have no impact through your ganking as long as you control dragon well and remember when it spawns (6 minutes after death) you are doing a very good job for your team.
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Thx for the tips, problem with dragon is, that without wiggles you cannot take him down very easily as udyr, at least that's my opinion. So without your lanemates, you have to be there for a long time. Wits end seems to be a good compromise beetween damage and tank, randuins omen looks good as well, will try that out.
I guess for my playstyle nocturne would be the better choice, or maybe xin zhao. gotta try around a bit 
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Wits end actually adds more DPS to dragon than Wriggles does, since AS makes phoenix that much better.
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United States4054 Posts
If you learning to gank with Udyr, you can gank with pretty much any jungler in the game. It forces you to learn correct ganking routes. Example with you as purple team:
-to gank top, you have to up through your top tri-brush and gank through the river. If they are smart and ward this, it will be the hardest lane to gank in the game.
-to gank mid, you want them pushed as much as possible, and to come at an angle running *behind*. Either come through river or bottom path cutting him off between him and tower. If your mid has some sort of cc, you can flash->bear stun to either initiate the cc, or to follow up your teammate's. Making him burn flash is good. Mid is tough to gank as Udyr if your opponent isn't pushing the lane.
-to gank bot, you have 2 main options. Going through the river is usually bad because it's easy to ward, and unless their lane is really pushed they will have plenty of time to get away. Ideally you gank through the tribrush, once again coming from behind and cutting them off. If river is not warded, you can go through river; otherwise, go through their wraith area (really nice if you jack wraiths too, and this position lets you gank mid as well).
There are more paths to ganking than the ones I listed, but they're the most common. You can also sneak into the top/bottom brush if your lanes are pushed, but ganking with pushed lanes is usually pretty tough.
Basic concept with ganking is that, the longer you delay your gap closer (flash, Lee Sin Q as examples) the more successful the gank will be. (If you force their flash before yours, it's often a kill.) At low levels your lanes will often not know how to properly assist in a gank, so ping them to try to bait some sort of escape or to land a cc right before you go in.
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OK, will try the AS-Udyr out, sounds promising. As for the ganks, yeah, no gap closer makes him really not that good at ganking and if you want to keep up with them, you need to keep bearstance up, which will result in low damange. Guess i'll just have to learn to always check how the lanes are doing and hope that the others assist. So much easier with warwick 
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United States4054 Posts
You use bear stance to close the gap, land the stun, change to phoenix, auto attack a few times (try to land 3 to get the phoenix proc), change back to bear, stun again, etc.
Optimizing damage in ganks comes down to two things: 1) Know your bear stun timer and 2) moving as you attack. This is called stutter step micro in starcraft; I don't know if there's a league of legends term for it.
But yeah without AS you are just a really shitty auto attacker and should go tiger instead.
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On December 02 2011 00:02 Sandster wrote:
This is called stutter step micro in starcraft; I don't know if there's a league of legends term for it.
I believe it's usually referred to as either orb-walking or animation cancelling.
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Ganking as udyr:
-If you will be doing most of the work never gank without red buff. Red buff+movement speed masteries and quints let you stutter step micro your way to killing a lot of people. Flash bear stun allows you to tower dive against flashers as well
-The most important thing about ganking as udyr is to limit yourself and mostly just farm and countergank. In counterganks it's harder for them to run when they commit and udyr has one of the strongest 2v2's in the game because of pheonix aoe and turtle if you get focused. The higher level'd and farmed you are the bigger damage and higher threat of towerdiving you are.
-The only time you gank without red is against overextended people when your laner is a large threat.
-You shouldn't bother just stunning everyone once in teamfights it's generally a bad idea. Pick your focus and go for it. If you think their bruiser overextended going on your carries you can stun him and focus him until their carries try to do damage in which case you immediately switch and go to stun and DPS them. Normally your best bet is to go for their AP or AD carry but make sure you don't commit until they do; if their AP and AD carry and support are all there in range of ONLY you just run around they won't be able to do damage to you, when they start to go in to DPS your team you run in and fuck them up. If they all switch to focus you turtle and bear and get away once you have done some damage and go back in when they switch back to your team. Your team will often be able to take down their bruisers while you run around with turtle and insane speed dodging their skillshots and getting out of range. There's no point soaking damage and hitting a bruiser when you could be soaking damage and hitting their carry, because if their carry dies you basically removed their damage and also going for their carries forces them to react and get you off them meaning they can't attack your team. If you kill their squishies and your squishies die it's okay because udyr is easily going to clean up other bruisers unless you lost way too much hp.
Udyr isn't a STRONG ganker but all that means if the number of positions which allow you to gank a target effectively is smaller; you should still AT LEAST force flash every time you take the time to gank. If you didn't force flash you should have stayed in jungle and kept farming.
Also you need at least wits end for damage. Sometimes wits end+trinity but you need a lot of farm to buy trinity as well as tank items. (Randuins, Shurelyas, Aegis, FoN). Not doing damage probably means you don't go for their squishies enough. Of course you won't do any damage to tanks. They don't do damage to you either and your CC is pretty weak which means you rarely try to defend your own team, instead you defend your team by going on their main damage champions and thereby stopping them from supporting their team. The thing about udyr is you constantly output damage so in 5 seconds you'll be useless compared to champions with burst damage and ultimates which is why you need to both by tanky and be going for their main damage so the fight gets dragged out. If you need a jungler that punishes divers then skarner is the one you're looking for who is similar. Udyr basically has to go on the squishies or at least zone them out if it's not safe.
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I have one question, what do you think about the mastery for movement speed above 70% health? I found that with this and the utility MS mastery the diminishing in returns is too high, but only the defense MS mastery only works when you are above 70% health which isn't that often especially in the jungle.
Also the attack speed from offense is quite nice, I don't really know what to get.
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What are the thoughts on using Surge on Phoenix Udyr? Overall a nice offensive boost for him making dueling that much stronger which can be a good advantage to have if you counter jungle your opponent early (wolves -> blue -> their wraiths for example)
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I'd say that it'd be cool except that flash and smite are already musts.
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On December 02 2011 04:38 Xedat wrote:
I have one question, what do you think about the mastery for movement speed above 70% health? I found that with this and the utility MS mastery the diminishing in returns is too high, but only the defense MS mastery only works when you are above 70% health which isn't that often especially in the jungle.
Also the attack speed from offense is quite nice, I don't really know what to get.
I don't know how you're speccing but I'm pretty much always above 70% hp in the jungle...I run 0/21/9 with aspd reds, flat armor yellows (changed from dodge since they're gonna be gone soon :'[, mres blues, mspd quints. boots+3pot start. R>W>E>Q, with one in bear at lvl 4.
i really like the mspd boost above 70% hp mastery cause udyr's gap closer is basically bear stance/run like a retard towards your target and you need every bit of help you can get (unless you want to blow flash). I play udyr as a tanky speed whore.
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the new udyr is tiger again
zerkers -> zeal -> MS masteries -> run into their jungle, kill their big buff in 1 seconds, run out. starve them of all buffs, farm your jungle or gank when their buffs are down, rinse and repeat
especially strong against single-target clearers who aren't fast
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On December 02 2011 04:38 Xedat wrote:
I have one question, what do you think about the mastery for movement speed above 70% health? I found that with this and the utility MS mastery the diminishing in returns is too high, but only the defense MS mastery only works when you are above 70% health which isn't that often especially in the jungle.
Also the attack speed from offense is quite nice, I don't really know what to get.
Mandatory mastery. You should always be above 70% in the jungle and you need all the movement speed masteries on pheonix udyr more than attack speed.
On December 02 2011 04:43 STS17 wrote:
What are the thoughts on using Surge on Phoenix Udyr? Overall a nice offensive boost for him making dueling that much stronger which can be a good advantage to have if you counter jungle your opponent early (wolves -> blue -> their wraiths for example)
What travis said.
On December 02 2011 05:33 gtrsrs wrote:
the new udyr is tiger again
zerkers -> zeal -> MS masteries -> run into their jungle, kill their big buff in 1 seconds, run out. starve them of all buffs, farm your jungle or gank when their buffs are down, rinse and repeat
especially strong against single-target clearers who aren't fast
lol
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I have a question about item builds on jungle phoenix, one game i had enemy xerath good fed pretty good mid, some thing like 5/0 after 15 minutes, tried to gank but no luck, I went boots one wits end, merc threads and then FoN. Later in the game I got flamed that my build was really shitty and I should have build more health because only Mr is useless, so what would have been the best way? Get HoG or Sunfire cape and then FoN? Or get negatron cloak then HoG or sunfire and then build it into FoN?
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Sunfire? Lol, terrible item. You never want to get giants belt items on udyr.
As for the build, it's not really bad because udyrs turtle shield gives him a lot of health over a long fight. However, you just said xerath was fed mid. If he was the only AP caster on their team you shouldn't need to get force of nature. Xerath won't be targetting you and even if he does you should be the hardest target on the team to hit with his skillshots because of your shield not to mention being the tankiest guy on your team. Xerath is a burst caster with long range and once his ultimate is down he's not a huge threat to you. Just avoid the AoE. He'll likely be trying to hit squishier targets and 1 combo them from absurd range.
As for health items, all the good ones build out of ruby crystal:
1: HoG-->Randuins. HoG is great on udyr, not the biggest fan of straight mercs+wits end personally although most good udyrs do it. I feel like the health is good for early tower dives and ganks when you tend to be the focus when you get counterganked or you tower dive.
2: Philo-->Shurelyas. Shurelyas another great item. CDR lets you spam turtle more, the movement is great for chasing and initiating, the regen is okay for clearing jungle and not losing anything and you get 330 health on top of that which is almost a giants belt.
3: Ruby-->Aegis. Aegis is a fantastic udyr item for only 1925 gives you tons of health armour and magic resist.
4: Ruby-->Phage-->Trinity. Phage is really good on pheonix udyr because you're so reliant on staying in melee range and for damage trinity is the way to go. It's better than wits end but wits end is much cheaper and gives you lots of magic resist. Sometimes you might want to consider getting zeal+phage-->trinity instead of wits end when you need the mobility and chasing power and burst more than sustained damage and tank. Mobility helps you more than resists against some teams to keep you alive as well.
Sometimes I find I have TOO much hp on udyr. Shurelyas, phage, randuins and redpot leave you with well over 3k hp and I feel like I don't want the health but it's just a side product of wanting the slow from phage, and the cdr/ms from shurelyas and getting redpot before important fights. That said, obviously nothing wrong with having more health it just feels weird to have more hp than warmogs champions when you didn't even build a giants belt, lol. Not to mention having like 1k free hp from turtle shields.
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I like the item phage a lot, so what would the build order be? Getting HoG then wits end then phage and building towards trinity? Or do I get wits end at all if I want to build trinity force? I get raduins most of the time but it seems to be very expensive and the 50 Mr from wtis end (best case) plus 25 from mercs don't seem enough.
I really think the problem simply was that the xerath was so fed that I couldn't build anything, he literally depleted half my health bar with one shot.
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Yeah but just avoid him and wait for teamfights where you shoudn't be targetted, unless you're go in out of position and you're a free kill, which you should never do on udyr, you rely on staying in the fight and soaking damage with turtle shields on cd, you're not tanky getting focused.
I go boots-->philo+hog-->recurve-->mercs-->wits end usually. Get trinity once you feel like you need more damage/mobility as opposed to resists. Sometimes I skip philo or get hog after recurve.
Normally you want randuins or aegis before you finish trinity, but it all depends. The safest option is to build at least randuins and wits end before finishing trinity because you have to play in a specific way if you're not very tanky on udyr.
Randuins is what you get versus auto attackers, just get chain mail or aegis if they have physical casters or something. Randuins is only expensive if you don't let your hog farm up gold. If you don't get Hog early just get frozen heart over randuins.
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Hi,
I have a replay of me jungling as Udyr, if anyone might give me some adivce it would be appreciated.
I got counterjungled by shaco and he stole my first red, should I have reacted differently?
I think I only ganked once in that game, when would have been times to gank?
Thanks.
lrf://www/replays/29363/download/29363.lrf
I hope the link works, I uploaded the replay at the lolreplay website, but can't find a way to share it.
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So how good is Udyr post dodge nerf? I've been trying to focus on a few selected champs per lane as I'm trying to climb up to 1500-1600 slowly. What I like about Udyr is that he seems not to lose any matchups but wins quite a few. I like that he is tanky, I like how he plays, I think he's a beast.
Any opinions on building Tigerdyr top lane these days? I'm running something pretty aggressive, AD Reds, Armor Yellows, MR/lvl blues, AD Quints and try to trade as much damage as possible with most enemies early on, which usually ends up in me zoning my enemy at around level 4. For items, I've been following TRM's guide, but Wriggles into Trinity Force seems just a bit too squishy in my opinion. I was thinking, if I am ahead in a lane, I might aswell get me an early HoG&Philo stone instead of wriggles, opening up great build options (Randuins&Shurleyas) and setting me up with some extra gold throughout the mid game. I was thinking something along the lines of HoG->Philo->Boots->Wriggles->Phage->TF or something. I don't know if 2GP5 and a Wriggles set me behind too much gold wise, it's just something I've been thinking about.
Any opinions?
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EPT
