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honestly im not gonna read this whole thread but this guide is definitely outdated.
in the jungle, phoenix is superior for sure. its wayyyyyy faster than tiger, its early ganks are just about the same (if you do them properly, and in fact they can actually turn out to be deadlier than tiger) and you can just farm the jungle all game while still having time to cover lanes. just build tanky, pick up wits end and some other attack speed like triforce if you want, and youre good to go.
in top lane, tiger is still the best. max turtle and tiger first (your choice but most people prefer turtle over tiger especially since the recent mana changes) and just build like a standard melee bruiser solo top.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 25 2011 01:13 dySpHoRia. wrote:
honestly im not gonna read this whole thread but this guide is definitely outdated.
in the jungle, phoenix is superior for sure. its wayyyyyy faster than tiger, its early ganks are just about the same (if you do them properly, and in fact they can actually turn out to be deadlier than tiger) and you can just farm the jungle all game while still having time to cover lanes. just build tanky, pick up wits end and some other attack speed like triforce if you want, and youre good to go.
in top lane, tiger is still the best. max turtle and tiger first (your choice but most people prefer turtle over tiger especially since the recent mana changes) and just build like a standard melee bruiser solo top.
Yeah, Neo really needs to update this.
Top Phoenixdyr isnt actually that bad (Hotshot's played it several times now in scrims and tournament matches). Doesn't have the front-loaded burst of Tiger, but anyone who's played Phoenixdyr should know how insane the 3rd Phoenix hit is against someone who tries to stand and fight you, and overall Phoenix has better creep control/pushing power than Tiger.
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Tiger is definitely stronger top in terms of 1v1 potential (your damage is much more front-loaded) and it's hard to compete with how fast a Tiger Stance Udyr can push a tower down with just Sheen. However, Phoenix is a much higher pressure option when top lane if you're against someone who can't clear waves very quickly or a player who can't last hit properly under a tower since you can quickly (and efficiently) push a tower all the way to their tower and then back off to be safe so it's not completely non-viable, just a different playstyle.
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T_D's guide for pheonixudyr, or Prodyr- strong enough to carry even TL B.
Aspeed reds, dodge yellows, mr/lvl blues, ms quints-
Aspeed to proc pheonix faster, dodge and ms to reduce late game kiting, and mr so you dont get bursted down.
Masteries- 1-13-16-
Check my profile page to see what it is exactly.
Skills- rwre r>w>e>q
Pheonix at level 1, then w, then after the second point in pheonix grab e. It IS possible to go r-e and try a level 2 gank, but you will get hurt a bit at wraiths without w. Nothing so bad you wont be able to clear the rest of the jungle, but it is painful.
Route-
wolves (if you have an aoe, get a teammate to use it after you draw agro to make it faster), blue (get a pull). From there, you can try to jack wraiths against slower junglers (gp, trundle) or against anyone who didnt start wolves first. From there do wraiths. If you jacked enemy wraiths, do red. If you did not, go to minigols and then red. Finish the last camp in any event.
Quick how 2 use skills in jungle- pheonix is great because you do not lose a lot of health since it just kills shit so fast. Just proc r every time it is up. Against harder hitting camps mix in a w to help mitigate some damage. I find you rarely need more than 1 turtle for any camp, even red.
The build-
Cloth+5>boots>HoG>Mercs>Wits End
Thats your core. From there, evaluate what you need. If you are playing vs a standard team, finish randuins. From there grab a triforce if you can afford to skimp on defense, otherwise grab some defense and go full tank.
If you are playing against pure magic damage, grab some more health then build a FoN or a QSS, then either grab triforce or keep building resists till you can survive.
If you're playing against pure ad, finish randuins, then decide if you can grab triforce or you want more tank items. Giants belt into Frozen Heart is a great way to shut down fed vaynes.
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Vs GP/trundle if you want to counterjungle it's possible to go:
- your wolves, your blue, enemy double golems, ambush him at his own red, but your top and mid needs to be prepared to reinforce you in this case. You can let your bot lane take your double golems for a fast level 2, which is a huge advantage for them.
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United States47024 Posts
Personally I feel Trundle shouldn't actually ever open himself up to counterjungling from Udyr--IMO it's part of why Saint goes Minis->Wraiths->Wolves->Blue in that matchup, to avoid creating a situation where his camps are vulnerable.
But then again, most junglers don't adapt their route to the matchup, so in either case it's very possible to abuse that against him with either a Wraith steal or a minigol steal.
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On October 25 2011 02:25 Juicyfruit wrote:
Vs GP/trundle if you want to counterjungle it's possible to go:
- your wolves, your blue, enemy double golems, ambush him at his own red, but your top and mid needs to be prepared to reinforce you in this case. You can let your bot lane take your double golems for a fast level 2, which is a huge advantage for them.
The thing about counterjungling is it NEEDS to never put you behind the enemy in terms of time and exp. Udyr can get away with a wraithjack because it is A) on the way to his wraiths, and B) he is very fast at clearing them, reducing the danger of getting caught. Your path puts you behind farther, and is incredibly risky.
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I find that it's actually less risky because you have a fail-proof way of getting away (via flashing into baron pit) if things go wrong. Wraithjacking can be predicted and if the enemy jungler has a really strong leash on blue he CAN pincer you at wraiths with mid, and flashing away in this case is a lot more awkward.
For the most part though, it puts your team ahead 100% IF your bot lane is capable of taking double golems by themselves.
The play is to stick around after double golems and to keep an eye for trundle passing by. He's going to see his double golems missing and probably try to do his red instead ( = ez kill).
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United States47024 Posts
The #1 most awkward thing with minigol jack is that if the minions are passing them, you have to wait until the minion wave passes completely or you get spotted by it. Depending on how your timing worked out, that can waste like 5 seconds that makes the gain over a wraith jack questionable.
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Is it really not worth it to get wriggles on udyr?
EZ solo dragon.. big help with baron.. sustain.. free wards... armor. I mean you don't need the AD but everything else is great and it's not like AD is going to hurt lol.
I understand it's not necessary, udyr clears jungle fast. But If you start cloth armor anyways..
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I disagree with minigolem jack on a champion that clear jungles so fast. Fair enough on lee sin or someone who has trouble clearing full jungle and wants to kill people early but on udyr it slows you down a lot and if you get caught you waste a whole lot of time compared to just clearing the whole jungle 30 seconds faster than they do and being higher level and you can still easily counterjungle small camps while maintaining strong presence for ganks.
Udyr clears dragon without wriggles easily travis, the amount of procs you get isn't worth it for the fact that your speed is probably only as fast as a recurve bow udyr and much much weaker in teamfights.
Again if you get caught minigolem jacking there is a risk of
a: Dying or being forced away without anything done
b: Having your whole red side of the jungle stolen, although you can do this as well it puts you on even footing at best and it relies on you predicting what they are doing correctly.
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the cloth armor can be put to use to make randuins or even frozen heart later
as phoenix udyr you really want to get that merc tread and wits end asap and getting wriggles simply delays it too much imo
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United States47024 Posts
On October 25 2011 02:56 travis wrote:
Is it really not worth it to get wriggles on udyr?
EZ solo dragon.. big help with baron.. sustain.. free wards... armor. I mean you don't need the AD but everything else is great and it's not like AD is going to hurt lol.
I understand it's not necessary, udyr clears jungle fast. But If you start cloth armor anyways..
Cloth turns into a million other things for Udyr--Aegis, Tabi, Randuin's, Frozen Heart are all decent options so that's not the best argument.
Honestly, as much as I used to be a proponent of getting Wriggle's, skipping it just...works. While it's definitely awkward to not have small core items like Razors to buy after clears where you've got like 400-600 gold, buying Null-Magic Mantles/Ruby Crystals with that gold ends up not being that weird. It just smooths out your power curve--you're a bit weaker at super early levels (Null Magic Mantles don't exactly win 1v1 scuffles vs. the enemy jungler for you), but being able to start tanking out after 2000 gold of damage items instead of 3600 (i.e. finishing tank items after Wit's instead of Wriggle's + Wits) makes your midgame feel much smoother.
Wriggle's is still situationally useful for exerting aggressive control over enemy buffs or trying to threaten early dragons, but as Jatt says, it's probably only necessary 1 out of every 10 games.
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On October 25 2011 00:46 Slayer91 wrote:
I get both philo and hog. Normally you give your second blue and all following to ap mid these days so the mana regen helps and the health regen helps because you can't spam turtle on camps without blue buff. You don't need philo and can skip it if you have had a rough start but it's generally a good idea since it minimizes error margins where you run out of mana in skirmishes and it costs you your life//kills.
Shurelyas isn't that much a utility item but a health item. CDR is health because of the increased turtle shield spam, also slight movement speed uptime and a bit more damage if you maxed 5 in tiger and 3 in bear. If you have philo stone its 1400 for 330 hp, 15% cdr and a 40% movement active (philo stone will mostly pay for itself, a giants belt is 430 hp for 1100, and the cdr easily makes up for the difference) all which are insanely good on udyr not to mention increased regens which are very nice and lets you spam a bit more and survive a bit more poke.
Currently I find that shurelyas, randuins, force of nature and trinity force are the big 4 items and you have to mix and match based on the situation. Saint always goes randuins into trinity and it's the most balanced alternative but not necessarily the best.
There's always some things to consider. -Fon usually not needed with wits and mercs. Trinity, fon and shurelyas all movement speed so you don't need them all. Randuins is nearly always good assuming that have powerful auto attacker ADs. Trinity is also always good. Force of nature is pretty much the thing to go against large magic damage poke/kite though, and shurleyas is a team initiate as well as a good all around item for udyr so keep that in mind. Shurleyas+FoN gives you insane survivability versus a double ap kiting and poking teamcomp and lets you get in and out and keep full hp when you aren't in.
EDIT: Jatt also likes aegis and spirit visage and doesn't favour trinity as much. I get aegis whenever I'm not getting randuins fast for whatever reason and I can imagine spirit visage+shurelyas will give you 31% cdr which means you are almost maxed without bluebuff. I still prefer trying to ninja blue buff from other team/kills and get 40% with shurelyas and penta kill :3
I can't imagine skipping MS quints for AS. MS is so hugely important early levels before you get at least high level bear and FoN/Trinity/Shurelyas and nets you a lot of kills and also speeds up your map roaming enough to compensate for very slightly slower jungle.
Thank you for your detailed response (and everyone else in this thread and subforum!) I haven't bought any AS reds or MS quints, so the only time I tried to phoenix jungle was, um, interesting. (It was a 5v4 for the first 7 min with their Nocturne d/c'd, and we still almost lost). But I really want to switch to phoenix, so I'll buy the correct runes and try it out within the next couple of days. Thanks again!
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I tried to jungle Phoenix Udyr before I had full AS reds and always ended up having to get wriggles to keep up with the other jungler. Wriggles isn't bad but getting wits end instead is much better, and its the full AS reds that really make phoenix work. They are 100% necessary for it imo.
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Quick question about interaction between bear stance and banshees veil, when I hit someone in bear stance and pop his banshees passive will my next hit stun them or the next hit after the "cooldown" of the stun is over?
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On November 09 2011 01:03 Xedat wrote:
Quick question about interaction between bear stance and banshees veil, when I hit someone in bear stance and pop his banshees passive will my next hit stun them or the next hit after the "cooldown" of the stun is over?
I am 95% certain that you have to wait for the 3 second "cooldown." Please correct me if this is wrong, TL.
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I am 95% certain banshees blocks the stun and you have to wait the 6 seconds.
I am also pretty sure banshees blocks the pheonix proc, so you can work around it by getting 3 hits in.
EDIT: LOL both of us posted the same thing and we're post 95% sure xD.
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and i am 95% certain you are both correct!
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Hi TL,
have been jungling a lot recently and was quite successful with warwick in my pre-30-noob-world. However, to mix it up, i've started to play udyr in jungle and am a bit confused. With warwick, i usually wait til 5 for the first gank, that usually fails if the enemy isn't really low initially. Once i hit 6, i start killing and assisting, going for a damage build that will allow me to dominate the mid game and be somewhat less effective in late, but that's ok cause someone else should carry at this point. Now with udyr, i usually go phoenix and build a lot more tanky. The problem is, i feel unscary. i usually come out of the jungle with bearstance, people run away, i might get a stun off, then they run to their tower and are safe. If my team don't capitalize really great on the short stun, there's just not enough i can actually do. If they have been really offensive, yeah, maybe we can widdle them down, but that's unlikely. After the first 2 or 3 ganks, i feel like i am getting even more useless. i am usually waiting for the teamfights where i try to get stuns off un every one, while being in the middle and absorbing damage if they are stupid enough to not ignore me. Cause i don't do any damage. Which is pretty normal for a tank, but other champions can do that so much better.
I usually buy cloth + pots, afterwards shoes, glacial shroud, mercs, frozen heart. From their i tend to get hp, either by frozen mallet if we are ahead or by warmogs. in the lategame force of nature, sunfire cape and atmas if i get that far.
And with my lategame tank roll, i guess i can live with that. What really annoys me though are the levels from 4-10, because i feel like all i do is trying to chase down enemies and wasting my time on unsuccessful ganks. As warwick, you basically deal enough damage erly one and are fast enough to take down anyone with the help of the laners, as udyr, i am not more then the initializer and have to hope my laners capitalize on that.
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EPT
