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On October 08 2011 14:37 UniversalSnip wrote:
i dunno if her ap ratios are actually that bad. 1.0 ap scaling is a lot more than 1.0 ad scaling (lee sin has 1.8 bonus ad scaling on his Q alone, imagine if annie Q had 1.8 ap scaling). Also, assume kog'maw's W has ok ap scaling for an autoattack bonus... 100 ap gives 1/6th of the bonus. 100 ap gives kayle 1/3rd of her steroid over again.
lee has 0.8 ad scaling
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No, it's .9 for the hadoken, and then another .9 for the flying side kick. 1.8 total
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On October 08 2011 14:05 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
I've been doing pretty well with
double dblade - zerks - Black cleaver - starks. Then GA/BT in whatever order you think you need.
run cleanse/flash to make her pretty much ungankable in a lane. Farm to your hearts content!
R>Q>E>W with 1 level of w at 3 or 4.
I personally don't think AP is worth it, the ratio on her E is mediocre, her Q scales equally with AD/AP, and the AP scaling on her W is negligible. As a pure AD carry, I think she has a surprisingly good kit. Slow/scaling nuke/damage amp. Slight heal/ms boost. Low range but built in splash and some magic damage. Her ultimate is obviously a carry's dream, and it also allows a solid amount of time to life leech.
Do you play with the standard meta?
How the fuck do you get to play Kayle as an AD carry bottom with support?
You will just get so far behind because you can't last hit. And if you DO last hit, your E will splash everything and push the lane. You will be constantly pushed.
Being constantly pushed is fine for Kayle, if your mid, she has a movespeed buff and a slow debuff as well as flash/ulti. But bottom its literally a death trap. The distance tower to tower is just too much for her, and you can't rely on your support to have 2 wards up all the time.. Bottom lane support (standard meta) ad Kayle just does not work...
If her basic attack was ranged, and her E was more like Kogmaws, then she would be viable AD...
TBH im looking for bottom lane dominaters to become more popular... taric garen, alistar blitz, soraka pantheon (hopefully more imba combos will come..).. and get our ad carries back in a solo lanes then there would be a place for Kayle...
Also, Gunblade is only 600 more than BT. And is vital for Kayle, regardless of how you play her.
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^--- lol i love the offended tone in this post. Kayle bot JUST DOESN'T WORK MAN. Same reason trist is not viable bot... O wait.
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Kayle works well with a roamer, since she can hold at tower easily and support herself. It's also really nice to gank a lane with a kayle in it (an allied one, that is) because you get speedbuff, a nasty slow, good damage and at 6 crazy tower divins.
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lol. Try playing Kayle mid against Morgana or another champion that pushes constantly. I run +25% ASPD, Mana Regen, and CDR. I open Dring into zerkers->nashors cleaver->malady->Gunblade-> GA/BV to replace Dring. Lets you constantly use E from earlier levels with constant mana regeneration so that you never run out, plus BC/Malady go well with her new passive (blehhhhhh new passive)
She really doesn't work as Ranged AD bottom, it's sad but true, bottom lane is just a bit too difficult to run as opposed to top or middle lanes in the current meta. So a team like X top/Kayle Mid/X Jungler/BrandTaric bottom, or something like that, would work well.
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Been messing around with Jungle Kayle and it's been pretty fun. Might even turn out to be viable if I can nail down a more optimized spec/rune setup for it.
If you look at it her kit is perfectly suited for jungling and ganking, especially now that red buff if applied on direct damage spells:
Q: Targeted slow (applies red buff, which basically makes the enemy stop moving) that increases the damage you deal.
W: Small heal with a decent movespeed buff which can be used on either you or on someone in the lane you're ganking to position perfectly / save someone's life.
E: AoE spell which helps clear the jungle, while also giving you a good ranged attack in ganks (to keep red buff on the target)
R: Perfectly designed to save someone's life or let one of you towerdive and get away safely to guarantee the kill.
First clear in about 3:30 running a 21/9/0 setup with both %pen masteries. Still messing with the rune/mastery set-up though.
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I used a 31% ASPD page when I played around with it and maxed E first, the idea being "AoE in jungle is OP". It's definitely viable, though how competitive I'm not sure yet.
Kayle's ult is really the capstone, because even if you end up on a team of four carries + one support it doesn't matter since the enemy team can't focus anyone down before you and the other three carries explode the "tanky" enemies.
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I guess I can give my guide.
E>Q>W
Max E or W first, depends on laning conditions.
Summoner spell:
Flash/ignite.
Flash/ghost
Item build.
Doran's ring->boots->stinger->finish boots (sorc or berserker, depends)->nashors->guinsoo->hextech->bloodrazer->voidstaff->defensive item of sort.
Masteries 30/0/0 or 21(magic)/9/0
Doran ring usually offers more than enough mana regen, and sustain for a long ass time.
Runes: Dunno, due to new hybrid runes, but I usually run with flat ap quint's, magic pen marks, ap/lvl seals, and cdr blues.
Edit: this is just what I like to run with, I know a lot of other people prefer malady/wit's end with kayle. I prefer nashors/guinsoo.
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why don't people use kayle as bot support? is she considered that useless?
i tried her out yesterday and had 3 great games. let the ad carry farm and harass like crazy, get a philo stone before malady/wits etc... with her move speed and W, it's very hard to get caught. then level 6 brings on all sorts of possible shenanigans for your lane partner. i'm finding her better than zilean since her mana costs are so forgiving.
ASpd quints, ASpd seals, mpen marks, cdr blues. you'll rip through anything targeting your partner -- so certainly a lane looking to kill more than one with a sona/soraka/taric.
and late game kayle is still retarded.
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I still stand by my AD onhit Kayle, and the change that put an AD ratio on her Q made it even more appealing
21/0/9, all the AD stuff in offense and mana+movespeed in utility
Apen marks, whatever seals, whateer glyphs, AD or Aspeed quints
EQQWQR R>Q>E=W
Open Dblade, Aspeed boots or CDR boots, BF Sword item, PD, Situational
Actually does earlygame damage, gets crazy lategame
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Is her lategame really still that amazing? It really feels like she gets outdamaged by most other ranged carries lategame (at least the ones with a steroid). I'd say she's more strong around level 9 since I max E and you can grab redbuff and towerdive people all day. Lategame I just end up being an ult bot and second ranged carry. It's not bad but it's not the feeling old Kayle had where you just ult yourself and kill everything.
I've had decent success with AD builds but I'm starting to like bruiser style wriggles+wit's end.
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On December 20 2011 04:08 starfries wrote:
Is her lategame really still that amazing? It really feels like she gets outdamaged by most other ranged carries lategame (at least the ones with a steroid). I'd say she's more strong around level 9 since I max E and you can grab redbuff and towerdive people all day. Lategame I just end up being an ult bot and second ranged carry. It's not bad but it's not the feeling old Kayle had where you just ult yourself and kill everything.
I've had decent success with AD builds but I'm starting to like bruiser style wriggles+wit's end.
No one can out damage kayle late game, mostly because of her ability to AOE damage. It's pretty much like tiamat stacking for most other characters. Not to mention her ulti is beyond clutch.
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Current meta is hard for Kayle at bot, since she pushes a lane very hard.
At mid she gets shut down hard by a lot of the popular AP carries.
Top is pretty decent if you have a good jungler and constant wards.
Jungle Kayle can clear insanely fast, ganks aren't that amazing even with redbuff because of her low range.
She is good when she can afford to constantly push a lane without being ganked 24/7 or when she is up against someone else that also pushes hard (Morgana for example).
I have been trying out bruiser-ish Kayle at solotop for some weeks also, I have started to like this a lot.
Wriggles+Wit's End is pretty solid on Kayle.
Generally, I follow-up with Warmogs/Sunfire/Banshee (depending on matchup and early game dominance) + Atma's.
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On December 20 2011 04:58 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 04:08 starfries wrote:
Is her lategame really still that amazing? It really feels like she gets outdamaged by most other ranged carries lategame (at least the ones with a steroid). I'd say she's more strong around level 9 since I max E and you can grab redbuff and towerdive people all day. Lategame I just end up being an ult bot and second ranged carry. It's not bad but it's not the feeling old Kayle had where you just ult yourself and kill everything.
I've had decent success with AD builds but I'm starting to like bruiser style wriggles+wit's end. No one can out damage kayle late game, mostly because of her ability to AOE damage. It's pretty much like tiamat stacking for most other characters. Not to mention her ulti is beyond clutch.
wait are you saying Tiamat stacking is good for late game?
and Kayle's radius is actually a LOT bigger than Tiamat's, but I still think it requires some cooperation or stupidity on the enemy's part for it to be really useful.
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On December 20 2011 04:08 starfries wrote:
Is her lategame really still that amazing? It really feels like she gets outdamaged by most other ranged carries lategame (at least the ones with a steroid). I'd say she's more strong around level 9 since I max E and you can grab redbuff and towerdive people all day. Lategame I just end up being an ult bot and second ranged carry. It's not bad but it's not the feeling old Kayle had where you just ult yourself and kill everything.
I've had decent success with AD builds but I'm starting to like bruiser style wriggles+wit's end.
Kayle late game DPS is basically the same as everyone else late game. Most of the ADs are actually really similar in terms of DPS. Between extremes like ashe vs kog/vayne there is a substantial difference but ranged AD power is mostly in how much you can attack vs run away and die, not in pure damage output (unless you're vayne, vayne so OP).
So what really hinders Kayle late game is ranged attack CD, short range, and having basically no escape whatsoever. Shield is really nice but you can put a shield on anyone whether you have farm or not and it often feels like Q is the only ability which actually scales.
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How to Jungle Kayle:- Armor Seals. Attack Speed Quints/Marks/Glyphs. Use AD wherever you don't have Attack Speed.
- 21/9/0.
- EWEQ (EQEW if you level 2 gank). R>E>Q>W or R>E>W>Q.
- Boots + 3 Potions.
For item builds I've generally been building Wriggle's -> Black Cleaver -> Stark's if we have an AD bruiser and a ranged AD, or PD otherwise. I've also tried and seen her built more like a bruiser with Wriggle's -> Wit's End.
At this point I'm thoroughly convinced Kayle is a highly competitive jungler. She is unequivocably the best ranged jungler; no other ranged champion has a kit as suited to jungling as Kayle. I'm making a bold claim but a simple examination of her abilities makes it clear and indisputable.
First, Kayle's E is the consumate AoE clearing tool. It's extremely effective early on, scales significantly with ranks, levels and items, and is almost mana neutral. As a result Kayle is fast and efficient even without any damage items and can give up blue buff without a second thought. It also gives significant damage when ganking or participating in team fights, and punishes opponents who group together.
Kayle's Q is a very powerful ganking tool. At rank 1 it yields the full 35%, 4 second slow, and has a short 8 second cooldown. In addition, the rank 1 value of its damage amplification is more than half the rank 5 value. Kayle therefore does not need to choose between clearspeed and gank potential.
Kayle's W is probably her weakest ability, but is nonetheless still very useful. At rank 1 the speed boost is equivalent to Udyr's Bear Stance, but lasts a half second longer. While one of the weakest heals in the game it still helps give Kayle the versatility to act as both support and ranged damage later in the game.
Finally, Kayle's R is one of the best tower diving abilities in the game, and also one of the strongest teamfight ultimates. Timed correctly it will easily block two turret strikes even at rank 1, and Kayle's range means a enemy trapped under their tower can't play ring around the rosie in an attempt to draw out the engagement.
In summation Kayle has powerful clearing potential, strong ganks, and has the versatility to act as a support in the late game, a ranged AD, or both. You can even build her like a bruiser with items like Wit's End and still be very effective (especially in cases where the enemy team has reason to try and focus you down first). Compare that with any other ranged AD and they will be found wanting.
What holds jungle Kayle back is the nature of the current meta. Junglers are almost always tanky, even at IEM Kiev the only non-tanky jungler used was Shaco. Kayle doesn't fit that paradigm very well, you can build her tanky if need be but she definitely prefers being able to abuse her splash damage.
Kayle is extremely strong in team compositions where you already have a couple tanky champions, or in compositions where there's a high priority kill target on your team. The latter is almost preferrable if you're good with Kayle's ult because it places the enemy team in a catch-22. They must focus the high priority target or lose team fights, but focusing the high priority target accomplishes nothing because of Kayle's ult. By the time they kill their target, if they kill the target, you've already won the team fight. This is particularly fun with champions like Tryndamere and Karthus.
Again, I strongly believe Kayle is an underappreciated jungler. She may not be pre-nerf Skarner, but she has what it takes to be a powerful pick.
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I just tried the jungle build and went 13 2 13. Ended the game with only wriggles mercs & blackcleaver & 5k gold. Anyway they're team really played bad because one picked orianna after there were already ryze & panth. I was a bit afraid because they stole the 1st blue and kill anivia in the process but it was not a big deal in fact.
OK 1300 elo but it can work at low elo at least :pp
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I remember that someone posted in GD about riot looking at kayle again. Does anyone know anything about that?
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EPT
