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On July 30 2011 22:05 Khelevaster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 10:19 Black Paper Moon wrote:Reposting this here from the patch discussion thread as requested. I've been looking at Kayle build options. Common wisdom so far is that you want to build attack speed to hell and back to take advantage of the damage on her Righteous Fury. I wasn't convinced by some of the item builds I've seen on her, though, so I ran some numbers on what goes well on her after the remake. 1) To start with: AP blows. Kayle used to be a hybrid that favoured AP because she could apply her AP to her attack damage (via Righteous Fury's AP coefficient), because AP also gave her bonus attack damage via her passive, and because AP strengthened both her heal and her nuke. The following things have now changed: + Show Spoiler +
- RF's AP coefficient has been decreased from 0.3 to 0.2;
- Kayle's passive no longer gives her bonus AD (in fact, it sucks now);
- Divine Blessing's AP coefficient has been decreased from 0.5 to 0.35;
- Reckoning's AP coefficient has been increased from 0.8 to 1.0.
Old Kayle got the following for every 100 AP:
- 45 bonus damage for her autoattack (30 from RF, 15 from her passive);
- 80 damage for her nuke;
- 50 health for her heal.
New Kayle gets the following for every 100 AP:
- 20 bonus damage for her autoattack (20 from RF);
- 100 damage for her nuke;
- 35 health for her heal.
Considering that most of Kayle's damage is autoattack damage, AP isn't even half as good now as it used to be. If you look at damage output numbers, hybrid items like Gunblade are no longer good on her (I'll prove it with math in section 3).
2) Kayle likes 40% CDR. To picture why, imagine you're playing Ashe and your ranged autoattack becomes a melee one for 1-2 out of every 16 seconds. Yeah. The biggest problem isn't that you're not dealing damage for those 1-2 seconds, it's that it can completely fuck up your positioning. Looking at the CDR items available you only have a few items that make sense on a carry that has little use for AP: Stinger with 10% (builds into Nashor's Tooth for 25%), Brutalizer for 10% (builds into Youmuu's for 15%) and Ionian Boots with 15%. You can also get 5.85% CDR from glyphs, 3% from offensive masteries, and 6% from utility masteries. That's what you have to work with. The best alternatives I've come up with are: Ionian Boots + Nashor's Tooth (no Runes or Masteries), Brutalizer + Nashor's Tooth (Offensive Masteries + 3 CDR glyphs), and Nashor's Tooth (Offensive and Utility Masteries + full CDR glyphs). I favour the last one because it's more efficient in item slots, because glyphs aren't that hot for you, because it frees you to purchase Zerk Greaves, and because the Utility tree works okay on you. My second choice would be MR or Mana/5 glyphs, full Offensive tree (Havoc is great) and Ionian Boots. 3) Full Attack Speed & Magic Damage Kayle is not the One True Build. Attack Speed & Magic Damage Kayle (combo pack of Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, Malady, Bloodrazor, all that jazz) has the problem that she doesn't scale very well. She has no synergy with Crit%, and you're going to be more affected by Armor and MRes stacking: Kayle's new passive blows, and she can't afford to purchase both a Last Whisper AND a Void Staff. My argument is that full AS & MD Kayle is a situational build for when Armor / MRes stacking is not going to be a problem (game doesn't last long enough), and for when some side-effects of the damage items you're buying become attractive (MRes from Wit's End if you're getting bursted down, % health damage from Bloodrazor against Warmog's stacking). You can build a competitive "standard carry" Kayle that scales better in late game (WARNING: MATH). + Show Spoiler +
Let's assume you agree with me and build Zerk Greaves and Nashor's Tooth on Kayle. Total cost is 3,805 gold, which I'll assume you get by level 8. What do you buy after that, an Infinity Edge (3,830 g), a Wit's End + Malady combo (3,975 g), or a Gunblade (3,625 g)?
First, let's see what your damage output looks like (assuming 100% uptime for Righteous Fury) for when you start buying each item. If IE, you want a Pickaxe. If Wit's End + Malady, you want a Recurve Bow. If Gunblade, you want a Pickaxe too.
Base autoattack damage: 74
Righteous Fury damage: 50 (+55 AP * 0.2) = 61
Attack speed: 1.381 (6.905 attacks per 5 seconds)
Critical chance: 0% (0 crits per 5 seconds)
DPS (against a 0 Armor, 0 MRes target): (74 + 61)*6.905 / 5 = 186.435
With Recurve Bow: Attack speed increases to 1.637 (8.185 attacks per 5 seconds). DPS increases to 220.995
With Pickaxe: Autoattack damage increases by 25. DPS increases to 220.96.
That means, after you have your Nashor's Tooth and Zerk Greaves, you have enough Attack Speed that the Pickaxe and the Recurve Bow are almost equivalent.
Now, let's look at the final picture: you need close to 4,000 g to complete these, so we'll assume you only get that by level 15. By level 15, Kayle will have:
Base autoattack damage: 91 (+80 if IE, + 60 if Gunblade)
Magic damage per hit: (62 if WE&M)
Righteous Fury Damage: 60 (+11 if IE, +16 if WE&M, +26 if Gunblade)
Attack speed: (1.484 if IE or Gunblade, 2.058 if WE&M)
Attacks per 5 secs: (7.42 if IE or Gunblade, 10.29 if WE&M)
Critical chance: (25% if IE, or 1.855 crits per 5 secs)
DPS is calculated as:
(Base autoattack damage + bonus AD + magic damage + Righteous Fury + AP coefficient of RF) * Attacks per 5 seconds / 5 + (Crits per 5 secs)*(Base autoattack damage + bonus AD)*(250% - 100%) / 5
IE DPS: [ (91+80+60+11) * 7.42 / 5] + [1.855 * (91+80) * 1.5 / 5 ] = 454.2895
WE&M DPS: [ (91+62+60+16) * 10.29 / 5] = 471.282
Gunblade DPS: [ (91+60+60+26) * 7.42 / 5] = 351.708
That is to say, DPS of Infinity Edge is almost on par with WE&M, while Gunblade is far (far) behind. Each of these items has a different set of advantages:
- Infinity Edge has the best end-game scaling (add Last Whisper, Phantom Dancer, whatever);
- WE&M provides MRes and suffers less from Thornmail;
- Gunblade adds more to your heal and your nuke, provides a redundant nuke with a slow, and adds lifesteal. I think it isn't close to measuring up.
- Bloodrazor deals % health damage, which is nice against high-HP teams. I didn't do the math for it here because its performance depends so much on who you're fighting.
Pick whichever you need!
I would like to disagree on almost all of your points. 1. I don't know how the pro's played her, but my version of AP Kayle was Deathcap + Lich Bane. She had very nice burst from just Q + fwoosh. I feel that the nerfs have been targeting this type of build. So yes, her passive has been severely nerfed, but the AP ratio on Q has been buffed, so this build hasn't been nerfed out completely. 2. Yes she likes to have 40% cdr but it's not absolutely essential for her living. She can do OK with around 20% (boots+masteries). Nashor's sucks. So does Brutalizer on her. 3. Not sure about the 'standard' carry items. Why not just take MF or Ashe if you're going to build that? Kog'maw gets better mileage out of the Malady + Wit's End too. I think that Kayle has to be built with straight AP or hybrid.
Well Pt 3 is all that needs to be said. Except she is worse off straight AP/hybrid than before the patch. I.E - Don't play Kayle. You can read Phreak's "defense" of Kayle if you like on forums. Even Riot "Yorick massive dmg" Phreak cant make her look good.
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On July 30 2011 10:56 UniversalSnip wrote:
if a hero's best build legitimately includes nashor's tooth that hero is not worth playing. Tooth is complete garbage, attack speed, cdr and mana regen are three of the least synergetic stats you could pile onto one item.
On July 30 2011 22:05 Khelevaster wrote:
I would like to disagree on almost all of your points.
1. I don't know how the pro's played her, but my version of AP Kayle was Deathcap + Lich Bane. She had very nice burst from just Q + fwoosh. I feel that the nerfs have been targeting this type of build.
So yes, her passive has been severely nerfed, but the AP ratio on Q has been buffed, so this build hasn't been nerfed out completely.
2. Yes she likes to have 40% cdr but it's not absolutely essential for her living. She can do OK with around 20% (boots+masteries). Nashor's sucks. So does Brutalizer on her.
3. Not sure about the 'standard' carry items. Why not just take MF or Ashe if you're going to build that? Kog'maw gets better mileage out of the Malady + Wit's End too. I think that Kayle has to be built with straight AP or hybrid.
Regarding Nashor's Tooth:
I don't think Nashor's Tooth was well designed for the reasons you give (hybrid stats that benefit very, very few champions) but Kayle in particular takes advantage of all the stats it provides. It's also the best way for her to achieve 40% CDR.
If you disagree with me that 40% on CDR is a must, you can go with a 9/0/21 build, CDR glyphs and Ionian Boots to reach 30%, which is fairly good and you can achieve early in the game. This also frees up money for you to purchase a more offensive build instead. You also have the option of only building Stinger for 40%, which is a more straightforward item than Nashor's.
Regarding AP:
Yeah, the nerfs were clearly targeting AP Kayle. Previously, you could build her as a healer / support champion that did good burst DPS early game, and have her become a terrifying ranged carry that could heal and make people invulnerable late game. The changes to her passive and AP ratios means that Riot wants you to choose: either you deal good burst damage and heal for a bit more, or you deal crazy ranged carry-level damage with worse burst and very mediocre healing.
I don't think AP Kayle is viable now. One of her spells (Intervention) doesn't benefit from AP at all. Righteous Fury offers a benefit that just isn't cost-efficient (1 point of AD = ~3 points of AP. An AP ratio of 0.2 means that it turns 5 points of AP into 1 AD for her autoattack) and at 0.35, her heal isn't going to be doing a whole lot. AP Kayle is a champion with a mediocre damage output, good burst, and mediocre healing potential. It just makes little sense to take her instead of (or along with) a good support character.
What Kayle does have is crazy strong sustained damage. She is the only ranged champion that gets a big flat damage boost to her autoattack; +60 per hit is brutal. It's the equivalent of over 2,000 gold in + damage items.
As for why you'd pick Kayle over MF? Because MF's kit doesn't scale very well late game, but Kayle's does. Her +60 bonus damage + single target slow + single-target haste + invulnerability is a really attractive combination. I'd easily call her the strongest ranged carry in late game right now.
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Just played her and I actually think she has the same "main" role as before, a nice niche champion, hybrid with ultimate.
You don't need Rageblade anymore, Malady, Triforce and Madreds are enough damage ... at least it seemed for me it was better then before with Rageblade and shit. (And yes that's what recommended says .. aside from Cleaver i would actually play exactly like recommended does)
I think she is just as useless or useful as before (look she was T2, lol)
Q ist just as useful, W is better now (before she also did heal like nothing ... but they could have deleted the heal anyways with the patch, it now des just nothing, but the MS bonus is pretty strong), E nerfed and Ulti stayed the same ... passive seemed pretty irrelevant, good in teamfights though.
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On July 31 2011 03:42 gnutz wrote:
Just played her and I actually think she has the same "main" role as before, a nice niche champion, hybrid with ultimate.
You don't need Rageblade anymore, Malady, Triforce and Madreds are enough damage ... at least it seemed for me it was better then before with Rageblade and shit. (And yes that's what recommended says .. aside from Cleaver i would actually play exactly like recommended does)
Yes, 9695 gold worth of items will indeed give you more damage than 2235.
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I meant the whole "rageblade" build, not just the one thing at the beginning. People need to understand posts ...
On Solomid someone made the same experience as i did ... actually i think he is the only one who played her post patch and didnt just complain.
The whole early game with Kayle felt better, even though i had only one dorans.
She is just nothing like a classic support anymore. I would describe her role similar to Teemo, actually. Not exactly the same, but also more like a softcarry.
And just for one thing: That's only the feeling i had, Kayle Prepatch before Rageblade felt just baaaad, now it is decent. Play her and then comment, i think you will feel the same way, even though i think she has not the best role for a classic team with ad carry, jungle etc.
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Kayle just completely blows now in my eyes. Riot must have been thinking to themselves "how can we make it easier for her to farm while still making her lategame useless".
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On July 31 2011 03:18 Black Paper Moon wrote:
I'd easily call her the strongest ranged carry in late game right now.
Her scaling got wrecked, I don't even know shit about some of the new champs and I would comfortably say that can't possibly be true. So sad changes =[
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is it just me or is kayle the worst fucking hero in the game? her early game is only a teensy bit better and the rest of the game shes the most useless piece of fucking shit until she gets her full build, and by that time the game will most likely be over because your playing a 4v5 or youll be slightly worse than a full built regular ranged carry
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i read that they wanted to rework kayle but so that she wasn't wrecking faces to start off and they are going to slowly "balance" her out and give her a boost in the next patch
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If they wanted to "fix" kayle:
- They should have kept old passive, not this herp derp armor/MR shred
- Reduced base damage on q, and increased scaling enough to make up for it - that fixes her I nuke you for half your health on lvl 5 issue while keeping her mid to lategame with items just as strong. If that's their "issue" with kayle's earlygame. I still don't think that was a real problem though.
- Should have kept the 18% damage increase on q instead of the new 5% which is retarded.
- I like the w change, it was their only good idea.
- Her e should be the new base damage + old scaling. She's a meant to be ranged (hybrid) carry. She's SUPPOSED to scale well into lategame.
Like hell, they make jarvan, give him 20 types of CC, a million damage, and herpderp stats, and they think that's fine until tournies where they put on their troll face and go "ohhh, guess we're wrong :DD lets nerf now."
Vayne % of hp in true damage is a "perfectly fine mechanic."
But like 50-70 free AD and 100-120 free AP when FULLY itemized (which is what made her an actually viable hybrid carry in the first place) compared to gangplanks free 50 AD without items (which they thought was fine)? NOPE, nerf to oblivion.
It annoys me because kayle was a fine champs pre-nerf it's just she wasn't popular. Like even jax wasn't that popular to play until dyrus began maining him along with singed.......
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every champion you just mention has recently been nerfed. just sayin'.
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tried her a lot recently. one game i have 420cs, full item build, and i'm just doing shit for damage, she's not a ranged carry at all anymore. she's not good at anything and she's really bad at a lot of things.
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tk I don't know what you are building on her but whenever I play her I just melt people and play to support the rest of my team. I build Malady for additional shredding of MR, BC for additional armor shredding, madreds for shredding any sort of tank, and if the game lasts long enough I get something with an aura to support my team.
Usually I get to about 2.3 attack speed and hit for 200+/shot on creeps + the e bonus.
Kayle is very good as a ranged carry right now. Only complaint I have with her is the heal nerf.
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You could build malady and BC on another ranged DPS and probably get a better halfassed armor shredder support thingy (which is a bad role anyways). Kayle's passive synergizes negatively with malady/BC so that doesn't help.
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I build to support my team late game and to be able to mid/solo lane early game. My friends that I play with love when they do so much more damage due to the lack of MR or armor that they have after 5 swings.
Would my build work well at high level play? Most likely the answer is no but being level 23 playing vs lvl 30s in solo queues and playing with high elo friends it still does well. I think people just need to find a build that suits their play style best and not go for the generic "ok im on this champ these are the items i need to get in this specific order". Myself, I love to play support champs and I find the build that I do to be extremely effective in team fights more than solo laning.
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On August 09 2011 05:28 LeglessPuppy wrote:
tk I don't know what you are building on her but whenever I play her I just melt people and play to support the rest of my team. I build Malady for additional shredding of MR, BC for additional armor shredding, madreds for shredding any sort of tank, and if the game lasts long enough I get something with an aura to support my team.
Usually I get to about 2.3 attack speed and hit for 200+/shot on creeps + the e bonus.
Kayle is very good as a ranged carry right now. Only complaint I have with her is the heal nerf.
aspeed boots malady madred's guinsoo wit's end hextech trinity all of these in some combination depending on the game.
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Just played her a few more games and she's still fucking god awful. she has no influence on the game at all, it's like playing 4v5. I had 60-100 cs more than the other team, went 3-0 when the idiot feeders on the other team double tower dived me over and over with my ult up, and as soon as the midgame occurred i was totally worthless.
she's still absolutely trash.
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On August 09 2011 05:37 Juicyfruit wrote:
You could build malady and BC on another ranged DPS and probably get a better halfassed armor shredder support thingy (which is a bad role anyways). Kayle's passive synergizes negatively with malady/BC so that doesn't help.
Her passive does not scale negatively with shredding items. Malady BC is probably the best build for her role.
Here is a link to the way armor shredding works: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_Penetration
Her passive comes into play first, and then you add in the flat shreds. Its just like why you want to build lots of armor penetration/reduction on Jarvan or Wukong. Champions with built in % shreds scale incredibly well with armor reduction/penetration.
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I started playing kayle again and yeah I miss the old kayle I hope they buff her soon the new skin at the end of season 1 is so damned cool.
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Ok was wondering if I was playing Kayle wrong, but I guess I'm not the only one feeling useless playing Kayle.
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EPT
