EPT[Champion] Kayle - Page 6
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
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arnath
United States1317 Posts
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c.Deadly
United States545 Posts
On July 05 2011 00:55 Shiragaku wrote: Hey guys, was Kayle already remade? No, Kayle was changed in the last patch but then most of the changes were reverted. Her tooltips for her skills are wrong now. Q still has a 1:1 AP ratio, but does 20 less damage than what the tooltip indicates. I'm not sure what other discrepancies there are, that's the only thing I tested out. | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On July 01 2011 01:55 BlackPaladin wrote: You get rageblade on 2 champs at this point in time that I can think of: Nidalee and kayle. Rageblade nidalee is an entirely different playstyle from deathcap nidalee. Kayle benefits fully from rageblade and it's literally the perfect item for her. Why you wouldn't get it is beyond me. the item is just garbage, there are too many requirements you need hard scaling off AD, attack speed, AP, and you need to be able to have full stacks at the start of a fight every time, otherwise it takes too long to charge up. It's 'efficient' at two stacks but you need more than comparable efficiency with base items to make something worth buying. I wouldn't say it's actually worth the money until five stacks. Nobody can keep it charged except nid and she doesn't get very much from attack speed and not a ton from AD either. There is simply nobody this item fits on atm and odds are there won't be within the next ten years. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
On July 05 2011 04:44 UniversalSnip wrote: the item is just garbage, there are too many requirements you need hard scaling off AD, attack speed, AP, and you need to be able to have full stacks at the start of a fight every time, otherwise it takes too long to charge up. It's 'efficient' at two stacks but you need more than comparable efficiency with base items to make something worth buying. I wouldn't say it's actually worth the money until five stacks. Nobody can keep it charged except nid and she doesn't get very much from attack speed and not a ton from AD either. There is simply nobody this item fits on atm and odds are there won't be within the next ten years. I'd disagree. Personally I think Kayle's the *only* champ that can really make use of rageblade. I notice a *huge* DPS increase when I finish rageblade and start Q+whooshing on people. Nid makes great use of it in a 1v1 environment, but honestly how many times are you going to be cat-form in the middle of a 5v5 teamfight? | ||
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xJacky
China375 Posts
On July 05 2011 04:44 UniversalSnip wrote: the item is just garbage, there are too many requirements you need hard scaling off AD, attack speed, AP, and you need to be able to have full stacks at the start of a fight every time, otherwise it takes too long to charge up. It's 'efficient' at two stacks but you need more than comparable efficiency with base items to make something worth buying. I wouldn't say it's actually worth the money until five stacks. Nobody can keep it charged except nid and she doesn't get very much from attack speed and not a ton from AD either. There is simply nobody this item fits on atm and odds are there won't be within the next ten years. Kayle can easily reach 5 stacks. Q(1)>Activate E(2)>Auto attack(3) If you activate W, its another stack. | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
i get nashors tooth on kayle i dont feel as amazing, and it costs more and does less | ||
739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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c.Deadly
United States545 Posts
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Craton
United States17233 Posts
On July 05 2011 03:03 Senx wrote: Kayle just randomy pops up as one of the most broken OPd champs in the game and is now seen all the time at high elo.. funny how it works "Randomly" = after being buffed? Since when? On July 10 2011 00:30 c.Deadly wrote: Kayle was nerfed this last patch - the AP ratio on her Q was changed from 1.0 back to 0.8, and all her tooltips were corrected. I suspect they're trying to gauge how the difference affects Kayle at high Elo before doing what they've got planned. | ||
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Black Paper Moon
Chile20 Posts
I've been looking at Kayle build options. Common wisdom so far is that you want to build attack speed to hell and back to take advantage of the damage on her Righteous Fury. I wasn't convinced by some of the item builds I've seen on her, though, so I ran some numbers on what goes well on her after the remake. 1) To start with: AP blows. Kayle used to be a hybrid that favoured AP because she could apply her AP to her attack damage (via Righteous Fury's AP coefficient), because AP also gave her bonus attack damage via her passive, and because AP strengthened both her heal and her nuke. The following things have now changed: + Show Spoiler + - RF's AP coefficient has been decreased from 0.3 to 0.2; - Kayle's passive no longer gives her bonus AD (in fact, it sucks now); - Divine Blessing's AP coefficient has been decreased from 0.5 to 0.35; - Reckoning's AP coefficient has been increased from 0.8 to 1.0. Old Kayle got the following for every 100 AP: - 45 bonus damage for her autoattack (30 from RF, 15 from her passive); - 80 damage for her nuke; - 50 health for her heal. New Kayle gets the following for every 100 AP: - 20 bonus damage for her autoattack (20 from RF); - 100 damage for her nuke; - 35 health for her heal. Considering that most of Kayle's damage is autoattack damage, AP isn't even half as good now as it used to be. If you look at damage output numbers, hybrid items like Gunblade are no longer good on her (I'll prove it with math in section 3). 2) Kayle likes 40% CDR. To picture why, imagine you're playing Ashe and your ranged autoattack becomes a melee one for 1-2 out of every 16 seconds. Yeah. The biggest problem isn't that you're not dealing damage for those 1-2 seconds, it's that it can completely fuck up your positioning. Looking at the CDR items available you only have a few items that make sense on a carry that has little use for AP: Stinger with 10% (builds into Nashor's Tooth for 25%), Brutalizer for 10% (builds into Youmuu's for 15%) and Ionian Boots with 15%. You can also get 5.85% CDR from glyphs, 3% from offensive masteries, and 6% from utility masteries. That's what you have to work with. The best alternatives I've come up with are: Ionian Boots + Nashor's Tooth (no Runes or Masteries), Brutalizer + Nashor's Tooth (Offensive Masteries + 3 CDR glyphs), and Nashor's Tooth (Offensive and Utility Masteries + full CDR glyphs). I favour the last one because it's more efficient in item slots, because glyphs aren't that hot for you, because it frees you to purchase Zerk Greaves, and because the Utility tree works okay on you. My second choice would be MR or Mana/5 glyphs, full Offensive tree (Havoc is great) and Ionian Boots. 3) Full Attack Speed & Magic Damage Kayle is not the One True Build. Attack Speed & Magic Damage Kayle (combo pack of Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, Malady, Bloodrazor, all that jazz) has the problem that she doesn't scale very well. She has no synergy with Crit%, and you're going to be more affected by Armor and MRes stacking: Kayle's new passive blows, and she can't afford to purchase both a Last Whisper AND a Void Staff. My argument is that full AS & MD Kayle is a situational build for when Armor / MRes stacking is not going to be a problem (game doesn't last long enough), and for when some side-effects of the damage items you're buying become attractive (MRes from Wit's End if you're getting bursted down, % health damage from Bloodrazor against Warmog's stacking). You can build a competitive "standard carry" Kayle that scales better in late game (WARNING: MATH). + Show Spoiler + Let's assume you agree with me and build Zerk Greaves and Nashor's Tooth on Kayle. Total cost is 3,805 gold, which I'll assume you get by level 8. What do you buy after that, an Infinity Edge (3,830 g), a Wit's End + Malady combo (3,975 g), or a Gunblade (3,625 g)? First, let's see what your damage output looks like (assuming 100% uptime for Righteous Fury) for when you start buying each item. If IE, you want a Pickaxe. If Wit's End + Malady, you want a Recurve Bow. If Gunblade, you want a Pickaxe too. Base autoattack damage: 74 Righteous Fury damage: 50 (+55 AP * 0.2) = 61 Attack speed: 1.381 (6.905 attacks per 5 seconds) Critical chance: 0% (0 crits per 5 seconds) DPS (against a 0 Armor, 0 MRes target): (74 + 61)*6.905 / 5 = 186.435 With Recurve Bow: Attack speed increases to 1.637 (8.185 attacks per 5 seconds). DPS increases to 220.995 With Pickaxe: Autoattack damage increases by 25. DPS increases to 220.96. That means, after you have your Nashor's Tooth and Zerk Greaves, you have enough Attack Speed that the Pickaxe and the Recurve Bow are almost equivalent. Now, let's look at the final picture: you need close to 4,000 g to complete these, so we'll assume you only get that by level 15. By level 15, Kayle will have: Base autoattack damage: 91 (+80 if IE, + 60 if Gunblade) Magic damage per hit: (62 if WE&M) Righteous Fury Damage: 60 (+11 if IE, +16 if WE&M, +26 if Gunblade) Attack speed: (1.484 if IE or Gunblade, 2.058 if WE&M) Attacks per 5 secs: (7.42 if IE or Gunblade, 10.29 if WE&M) Critical chance: (25% if IE, or 1.855 crits per 5 secs) DPS is calculated as: (Base autoattack damage + bonus AD + magic damage + Righteous Fury + AP coefficient of RF) * Attacks per 5 seconds / 5 + (Crits per 5 secs)*(Base autoattack damage + bonus AD)*(250% - 100%) / 5 IE DPS: [ (91+80+60+11) * 7.42 / 5] + [1.855 * (91+80) * 1.5 / 5 ] = 454.2895 WE&M DPS: [ (91+62+60+16) * 10.29 / 5] = 471.282 Gunblade DPS: [ (91+60+60+26) * 7.42 / 5] = 351.708 That is to say, DPS of Infinity Edge is almost on par with WE&M, while Gunblade is far (far) behind. Each of these items has a different set of advantages: - Infinity Edge has the best end-game scaling (add Last Whisper, Phantom Dancer, whatever); - WE&M provides MRes and suffers less from Thornmail; - Gunblade adds more to your heal and your nuke, provides a redundant nuke with a slow, and adds lifesteal. I think it isn't close to measuring up. - Bloodrazor deals % health damage, which is nice against high-HP teams. I didn't do the math for it here because its performance depends so much on who you're fighting. Pick whichever you need! | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Niton
United States2395 Posts
On July 30 2011 10:56 UniversalSnip wrote: if a hero's best build legitimately includes nashor's tooth that hero is not worth playing. Tooth is complete garbage, attack speed, cdr and mana regen are three of the least synergetic stats you could pile onto one item. They're synergistic on Taric's Q! ..except Taric doesn't want any of them to begin with. | ||
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Khelevaster
Ukraine34 Posts
On July 30 2011 10:19 Black Paper Moon wrote: Reposting this here from the patch discussion thread as requested. I've been looking at Kayle build options. Common wisdom so far is that you want to build attack speed to hell and back to take advantage of the damage on her Righteous Fury. I wasn't convinced by some of the item builds I've seen on her, though, so I ran some numbers on what goes well on her after the remake. 1) To start with: AP blows. Kayle used to be a hybrid that favoured AP because she could apply her AP to her attack damage (via Righteous Fury's AP coefficient), because AP also gave her bonus attack damage via her passive, and because AP strengthened both her heal and her nuke. The following things have now changed: + Show Spoiler + - RF's AP coefficient has been decreased from 0.3 to 0.2; - Kayle's passive no longer gives her bonus AD (in fact, it sucks now); - Divine Blessing's AP coefficient has been decreased from 0.5 to 0.35; - Reckoning's AP coefficient has been increased from 0.8 to 1.0. Old Kayle got the following for every 100 AP: - 45 bonus damage for her autoattack (30 from RF, 15 from her passive); - 80 damage for her nuke; - 50 health for her heal. New Kayle gets the following for every 100 AP: - 20 bonus damage for her autoattack (20 from RF); - 100 damage for her nuke; - 35 health for her heal. Considering that most of Kayle's damage is autoattack damage, AP isn't even half as good now as it used to be. If you look at damage output numbers, hybrid items like Gunblade are no longer good on her (I'll prove it with math in section 3). 2) Kayle likes 40% CDR. To picture why, imagine you're playing Ashe and your ranged autoattack becomes a melee one for 1-2 out of every 16 seconds. Yeah. The biggest problem isn't that you're not dealing damage for those 1-2 seconds, it's that it can completely fuck up your positioning. Looking at the CDR items available you only have a few items that make sense on a carry that has little use for AP: Stinger with 10% (builds into Nashor's Tooth for 25%), Brutalizer for 10% (builds into Youmuu's for 15%) and Ionian Boots with 15%. You can also get 5.85% CDR from glyphs, 3% from offensive masteries, and 6% from utility masteries. That's what you have to work with. The best alternatives I've come up with are: Ionian Boots + Nashor's Tooth (no Runes or Masteries), Brutalizer + Nashor's Tooth (Offensive Masteries + 3 CDR glyphs), and Nashor's Tooth (Offensive and Utility Masteries + full CDR glyphs). I favour the last one because it's more efficient in item slots, because glyphs aren't that hot for you, because it frees you to purchase Zerk Greaves, and because the Utility tree works okay on you. My second choice would be MR or Mana/5 glyphs, full Offensive tree (Havoc is great) and Ionian Boots. 3) Full Attack Speed & Magic Damage Kayle is not the One True Build. Attack Speed & Magic Damage Kayle (combo pack of Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, Malady, Bloodrazor, all that jazz) has the problem that she doesn't scale very well. She has no synergy with Crit%, and you're going to be more affected by Armor and MRes stacking: Kayle's new passive blows, and she can't afford to purchase both a Last Whisper AND a Void Staff. My argument is that full AS & MD Kayle is a situational build for when Armor / MRes stacking is not going to be a problem (game doesn't last long enough), and for when some side-effects of the damage items you're buying become attractive (MRes from Wit's End if you're getting bursted down, % health damage from Bloodrazor against Warmog's stacking). You can build a competitive "standard carry" Kayle that scales better in late game (WARNING: MATH). + Show Spoiler + Let's assume you agree with me and build Zerk Greaves and Nashor's Tooth on Kayle. Total cost is 3,805 gold, which I'll assume you get by level 8. What do you buy after that, an Infinity Edge (3,830 g), a Wit's End + Malady combo (3,975 g), or a Gunblade (3,625 g)? First, let's see what your damage output looks like (assuming 100% uptime for Righteous Fury) for when you start buying each item. If IE, you want a Pickaxe. If Wit's End + Malady, you want a Recurve Bow. If Gunblade, you want a Pickaxe too. Base autoattack damage: 74 Righteous Fury damage: 50 (+55 AP * 0.2) = 61 Attack speed: 1.381 (6.905 attacks per 5 seconds) Critical chance: 0% (0 crits per 5 seconds) DPS (against a 0 Armor, 0 MRes target): (74 + 61)*6.905 / 5 = 186.435 With Recurve Bow: Attack speed increases to 1.637 (8.185 attacks per 5 seconds). DPS increases to 220.995 With Pickaxe: Autoattack damage increases by 25. DPS increases to 220.96. That means, after you have your Nashor's Tooth and Zerk Greaves, you have enough Attack Speed that the Pickaxe and the Recurve Bow are almost equivalent. Now, let's look at the final picture: you need close to 4,000 g to complete these, so we'll assume you only get that by level 15. By level 15, Kayle will have: Base autoattack damage: 91 (+80 if IE, + 60 if Gunblade) Magic damage per hit: (62 if WE&M) Righteous Fury Damage: 60 (+11 if IE, +16 if WE&M, +26 if Gunblade) Attack speed: (1.484 if IE or Gunblade, 2.058 if WE&M) Attacks per 5 secs: (7.42 if IE or Gunblade, 10.29 if WE&M) Critical chance: (25% if IE, or 1.855 crits per 5 secs) DPS is calculated as: (Base autoattack damage + bonus AD + magic damage + Righteous Fury + AP coefficient of RF) * Attacks per 5 seconds / 5 + (Crits per 5 secs)*(Base autoattack damage + bonus AD)*(250% - 100%) / 5 IE DPS: [ (91+80+60+11) * 7.42 / 5] + [1.855 * (91+80) * 1.5 / 5 ] = 454.2895 WE&M DPS: [ (91+62+60+16) * 10.29 / 5] = 471.282 Gunblade DPS: [ (91+60+60+26) * 7.42 / 5] = 351.708 That is to say, DPS of Infinity Edge is almost on par with WE&M, while Gunblade is far (far) behind. Each of these items has a different set of advantages: - Infinity Edge has the best end-game scaling (add Last Whisper, Phantom Dancer, whatever); - WE&M provides MRes and suffers less from Thornmail; - Gunblade adds more to your heal and your nuke, provides a redundant nuke with a slow, and adds lifesteal. I think it isn't close to measuring up. - Bloodrazor deals % health damage, which is nice against high-HP teams. I didn't do the math for it here because its performance depends so much on who you're fighting. Pick whichever you need! I would like to disagree on almost all of your points. 1. I don't know how the pro's played her, but my version of AP Kayle was Deathcap + Lich Bane. She had very nice burst from just Q + fwoosh. I feel that the nerfs have been targeting this type of build. So yes, her passive has been severely nerfed, but the AP ratio on Q has been buffed, so this build hasn't been nerfed out completely. 2. Yes she likes to have 40% cdr but it's not absolutely essential for her living. She can do OK with around 20% (boots+masteries). Nashor's sucks. So does Brutalizer on her. 3. Not sure about the 'standard' carry items. Why not just take MF or Ashe if you're going to build that? Kog'maw gets better mileage out of the Malady + Wit's End too. I think that Kayle has to be built with straight AP or hybrid. | ||
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