EPTTB: do you think Archon is viable as an alternative tournament format?
Archon mode may very well be the magic bullet - Page 6
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nimdil
Poland3751 Posts
TB: do you think Archon is viable as an alternative tournament format? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23515 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I am already dreaming of matches with my favorite players teamed together... | ||
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ethox
Finland57 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I think the title is missing "may" | ||
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SpikeStarcraft
Germany2095 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45174 Posts
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adwodon
United Kingdom592 Posts
On April 02 2015 15:51 nimdil wrote: Oh, TB good point. I was focusing a lot more on new units etc. and somehow overlooked possible fun Archon brings. TB: do you think Archon is viable as an alternative tournament format? I'd say its viable as an alternative tournament format, at least worth trying out. Pros are amazing no doubt but they can't actually be in two places at once but it would be a different skillset at super high level with similar openers of course but vastly different mid and endgames. At the moment for instance its difficult to effectively split your army, mainly because you can't effectively micro in two places. With two players you can, so now that MMM ball in both TvZ and TvP can be properly split and properly micro'd. Tanks could be constantly pushed forward whilst vikings and hellions prod, poke and defend against harassment. The game could potentially open up to a huge variety of play. Of course this isn't guarantee'd, if the game doesn't play that way it doesn't play that way so unless strategy does open with more eyes on the field its not going to really be worth it. On the flip side, too much going on could become a nightmare to spectate, one of SC2s greatest elements is the simplicity of spectating, sure you might not understand units and strategies but when a big army collides you generally see it, but with lots of small skirmishes it could become difficult to follow. I'm still hopeful though, I'd love to keep the main 1v1 format for the kings of SC2 but it could be a good platform for solid B-teamers to really shine in archon mode, and maybe even level the Korean / Foreigner playing field so some of our creativity can start to shine through their mechanical dominance. | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
On April 02 2015 11:52 codonbyte wrote: Remember how in Team Melee it was possible to spawn with some workers belonging to a different race? I really hope they add such a feature to LotV. Think of the possibilities that would be allowed. Imagine thors and tanks using nydus worms (yes, that is possible). Edit: Know where I can find vods of these? Or replays? You can find VODs and the various threads for the old BW TL:A episodes on Liquipedia here. I watched through some last night and it was a bit of a trip. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17148 Posts
On April 02 2015 06:56 robopork wrote: I'm no video game market expert, but I don't think we can know the genre's interest is necessarily in decline. I think sc2 is stuck in an archaic pay model and no one else is trying to directly compete with the franchise. No other rts, besides wc3 (which was also really popular in the not too distant past), has tried very hard to be a high level competitive game. What you're saying doesn't account for any of the other variables that go into sc2's popularity, which have been talked about at length, and it doesn't account for the fact that in 4 and a half years sc2 has sold over six million copies. The only other PC game released in the last decade that has outsold it is minecraft. I don't think people mind the genre, I think people mind paying $60 for an esport title when they can play dota2 or lol for free. Either way, lotv can only be a good thing and the places archon mode might take us are really exciting. Blizzard acknowledges the genre's over all decline in this article http://www.gamespot.com/articles/even-blizzard-isnt-sure-how-to-save-the-rts-genre-/1100-6423466/ TotalBiscuit and Blizzard's Tim Morten are both talking about "magic bullets". Furthermore, based upon TB's posting here it appears Blizzard has accomplished its stated goals with Archon mode. the only major publisher making RTS games is Blizzard. EA and Microsoft have abandoned the genre. It is true that a rising tide floats all boats higher. The opposite is also true. All this said, none of this should have any impact on the fun a niche community can have playing a game they are enthusiastic about. LotV will probably end up being amazingly great fun. Just as WoL, HotS, WC3, Brood War and WC2 all were. | ||
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Elentos
55561 Posts
On April 02 2015 17:38 GreenHorizons wrote: I'd watch the crap out of an Archon tournament. I think it has some incredible potential. + Show Spoiler + I am already dreaming of matches with my favorite players teamed together... I know. Imagine some ridiculous archons with the best macro and micro players of each race. E.g. Maru/Cure, Dream/INnoVation, Zest/herO, Rain/PartinG, Life/soO, Dark/Rogue. :O | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On April 02 2015 22:42 Elentos wrote: I know. Imagine some ridiculous archons with the best macro and micro players of each race. E.g. Maru/Cure, Dream/INnoVation, Zest/herO, Rain/PartinG, Life/soO, Dark/Rogue. :O The fun thing about imagining a competitive archon mode is that you can't just pair good solo players together. You have to think about how good they are at communicating, how they can play well with their partner. It introduces the aspect of communication in competitive that SC never really had except when they had 2v2 in BW prologue. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
this should have been in the game from day one. technically it was just two armies for the price of one. On April 03 2015 00:25 avilo wrote: "Archon Mode" was formerly known as "Team Melee" in SC1 (it was an official game mode, like melee was). It's amazing that blizzard is promoting this mode with the matchmaking as well, props to whoever at blizz decided to highlight this mode I have a hard time giving props when such things date back to games like vanilla BW. It was fun back then, although very few people played the game setting back then unless it was a private game with friends. Matchmaking with it was imperative. If I were Blizzard I would go back to trying to reinvent the wheel. They don't really have any fresh ideas and that's why we're seeing old ideas come back to the forefront. Everything from units to game settings. | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
'Real' teams played 2v2 because that took more coordination. And solo players were not interested in team games anyway. I remember one clan league had three 1v1s, one 2v2 and one Team Melee early on. But even then the TM was more of a joker round, because nobody had dedicated practice or set pairs. Unfortunately I see this happening with Archon Mode again, a fun game mode for casuals but no pro will take it serious. (Unless KeSPA comes out of left field and integrates it into Proleague.) | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On April 03 2015 00:58 StarStruck wrote: So basically this is what we knew as team melee in BW. or instead of being able to share control or resources with one another and having teams so you can focus on one race and army. we get this? this should have been in the game from day one. technically it was just two armies for the price of one. I have a hard time giving props when such things date back to games like vanilla BW. It was fun back then, although very few people played the game setting back then unless it was a private game with friends. Matchmaking with it was imperative. If I were Blizzard I would go back to trying to reinvent the wheel. They don't really have any fresh ideas and that's why we're seeing old ideas come back to the forefront. Everything from units to game settings. I think it's very unfair to compare the implementation of Team Melee in BW to archon mode in SC2... Just because the expected standards of including a game mode in a like Sc2 are just soooooo much higher than they were back then. I'm sure they have a lot of ideas for things they'd like to include that just require too much work to easily put in without it being a hackjob (team melee replays can not be viewed in SC1, do you think that would fly in SC2, for example?). | ||
Falling
Canada11379 Posts
On April 03 2015 02:35 Liquid`Jinro wrote: (team melee replays can not be viewed in SC1, do you think that would fly in SC2, for example?). This always makes me a sad panda. I've recently been using Team Melee with friends in BW just because it's a long time into playing games for most of them, and I think it's easier to divide control than to control everything. But not being able to watch the replay at the end is so sad  While I don't understand why they didn't include Team Melee to start with, Archon Mode is definitely Team Melee + when you consider automatchmaking. Having a ranking system is huge! I really hope they double down on promoting this mode because honestly I haven't been all that excited about SC2 for awhile, but this is actually intriguing to me. Next up- they should really have 2v2v2v2 matchmaking. Sooo much more interesting thant 4v4. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On April 03 2015 02:46 Falling wrote: This always makes me a sad panda. I've recently been using Team Melee with friends in BW just because it's a long time into playing games for most of them, and I think it's easier to divide control than to control everything. But not being able to watch the replay at the end is so sad While I don't understand why they didn't include Team Melee to start with, Archon Mode is definitely Team Melee + when you consider automatchmaking. Having a ranking system is huge! I really hope they double down on promoting this mode because honestly I haven't been all that excited about SC2 for awhile, but this is actually intriguing to me. Next up- they should really have 2v2v2v2 matchmaking. Sooo much more interesting thant 4v4. I'd be interested to see the statistics of 1v1 vs Not-1v1 games played per day. I'm guessing 1v1 is probably hundreds if not thousands orders of magnitude larger. Which is nice because Archon is basically a flavor of 1v1. It is too hard to make a balanced game outside of the 1v1 environment so team games will always inherently be flawed. | ||
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Falling
Canada11379 Posts
On April 03 2015 02:53 Tenks wrote: I'd be interested to see the statistics of 1v1 vs Not-1v1 games played per day. I'm guessing 1v1 is probably hundreds if not thousands orders of magnitude larger. Which is nice because Archon is basically a flavor of 1v1. It is too hard to make a balanced game outside of the 1v1 environment so team games will always inherently be flawed. Not to mention, I think it's much harder to figure how to make good maps for anything other than 1v1. I've been playing a bit of Wings with some friends and I think pretty much all the 3v3 and 4v4 maps suck- even with super basic crap like two double wide entrances front and back into the main. Or main minerals that can be hit by siege tanks or cannons built outside the base with a super long distance for workers to travel to kill proxy pylon at the bottom of the cliff. Archon mode, they can actually use proper tourney maps instead of crappy Blizzard maps *fingers crossed. | ||
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