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Learning curve. It's why this game is so beautiful at the highest level, the best spectator eSport there is and simultaneously, the albatross around the games neck that is slowly strangling it of oxygen. With the addition of more units, a faster start and more micro, LOTV looks set to push that even further. It's a potential disaster for the games playerbase, as SC2 is one of the most stressful and difficult games to play and even harder to get into now with each passing day. Except...
Archon mode. I played today and it blew my mind. It literally made SC2 twice as easy to play yet without sacrificing any of the complexity. It made the game less stressful and more fun. It added in the enjoyment of playing with a friend, a social element but without the additional stress of handling your own base and economy like 2v2. You share the mental load, you work together to defeat the opponents who can also do the same thing. There's more harass. I was playing with CranK today and I was harassing the main with warp prism immortal drops while he harassed multiple expansions simultaneously with Upgraded Adepts. This is nigh on impossible for one player to control themselves, even at the highest level, but we were able to do it and stay on top of our macro and we had a blast in the process.
The potential of Archon is huge. Think about the scenarios where it could be used.
1) Coaching. Archon mode makes coaching completely viable, you can bring a friend in and let them control a small number of units or gradually instruct them in a build order while handling scout, harass and early defense yourself.
2) Bringing an old player back up to speed. It's a great opportunity to bring an ex-SC2 player back into the fold and ease them in without the stress of having to handle everything themselves.
3) Just a great way for friends to play together. Less stressful than 2v2, yet just as complex as 1v1.
Archon mode has made a believer out of me. I don't want to play SC2 outside of this mode anymore. This lets me enjoy high level SC2 without the countless hours required to get to that level. It lets me learn at my own pace and focus on what I find enjoyable in the game while the other player handles the rest. It might very well be the magic bullet the game is looking for to make it accessible without sacrificing its complexity.
In short, try Archon mode when you get into the beta.
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Canada16217 Posts
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archon mode for coaching is really good. In wc3 I used archon mode a lot. For example when the player thinks the game is over and there is nothing they can do, you have them stop controlling everything and then show them how to win from that point in the game.
It is also good for the points you mentioned. 1v2 can be fun as well.
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Has this convinced you to showcase Archon mode in some future Shoutcraft clan wars?
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United States252 Posts
Sc2 needed something like this, I can't wait to try it out when I get into the beta.
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Groovy.
I have to say LotV is looking really good so far.
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"when you get into beta"
.....
Don't make me cry 
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I want the beta so bad! ;_;
Archon mode is going to be great with my friends! I'm seriously stoked about it!
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Was watching JP and djWheat play it, looked so fun. Can't wait to try it. Really think it will help the game.
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I'm really looking forward to introduce my friends to the game with this.
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Very insightful. I thought of archon mode as just another fun mode, but it could definitely be much more than that.
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United States1225 Posts
Archon mode is going to be brilliant. Before, you could always use shared control of units to help someone out in 2v2s, but it still put massive pressure on them. With Archon, you can give them one or two tasks to focus on each game. It's very much like in Dota when you do a tri lane with friends. Focus on last hits, denies, warding, etc. etc. This really lets you keep an eye on your pal but also forces them to work.
Super excited to introduce friends to the game with this. Paired with it being standalone, I think it'll cause a massive spike in player numbers.
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I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago.
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On April 01 2015 15:54 opisska wrote:
I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago.
Imagine how much these people would freak out over the introduction of the ability to play with other people via local area networks!
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On April 01 2015 15:54 opisska wrote:
I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago.
It's a fun mode, and bringing it out to be supported by the official matchmaking service is pretty nice. Any cool mode like this that can be brought out of the mediocre Arcade interface and exposed next to the other modes with matchmaking will get nice attention. A lot of other fun modes buried in the Arcade, like Peep Mode Maps, would probably get good attention if Blizzard gave them similar official support.
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On April 01 2015 16:08 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 15:54 opisska wrote:
I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago. It's a fun mode, and bringing it out to be supported by the official matchmaking service is pretty nice. Any cool mode like this that can be brought out of the mediocre Arcade interface and exposed next to the other modes with matchmaking will get nice attention. A lot of other fun modes buried in the Arcade, like Peep Mode Maps, would probably get good attention if Blizzard gave them similar official support.
I am not arguing otherwise and I AM looking forward to playing it. Only I would expect that people would give Blizzard some shit for not having it released already in WoL. But the list of such obvious features that are still missing is probably too long for that 
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I want this mode in proleague :D
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i frequent a lan center for my gaming, one that is open until 3 am at that. i am the lone starcraft player. everyone else plays LoL and DotA, and now heroes of the storm as well. starcraft's learning curve is the biggest wall for new players.
i really hope to magically get access on two accounts somehow. i want to share this with everyone there, and im sure i could make at least 3 people into regular players with this simple game mode. i wish i had more people irl to share this amazing game with...
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I've missed this mode, used to play team melee with some friends in BW, was always great fun :D
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On April 01 2015 16:11 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 16:08 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 01 2015 15:54 opisska wrote:
I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago. It's a fun mode, and bringing it out to be supported by the official matchmaking service is pretty nice. Any cool mode like this that can be brought out of the mediocre Arcade interface and exposed next to the other modes with matchmaking will get nice attention. A lot of other fun modes buried in the Arcade, like Peep Mode Maps, would probably get good attention if Blizzard gave them similar official support. I am not arguing otherwise and I AM looking forward to playing it. Only I would expect that people would give Blizzard some shit for not having it released already in WoL. But the list of such obvious features that are still missing is probably too long for that
SC2 has some features that BW didn't have and missing some features that BW had so it's not like it's a crime for them to not have all of the features. It's good they are adding more and more features.
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He probably played with Crank and is happy because they won every game.
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I can definitely see the appeal of Archon Mode. A great idea!
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Yeah I can't wait to play this with some friends that find 1v1 sc2 too stressful .
Oh and nice hat!
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It's a good idea but still, I don't get how do you share things to do? You should sit side by side or have a good Skype conversation, okey that's doable. But you also have to have a very good plan before game, what will we do? Who will control what?
If two bad players play archon mode, they will perform worse than playing alone. It can only work good, if both players are good and kinda know the correct thing to do in a situation, then you can share the workload. In two bad players' case this only leads to frustration.
It's the same case in 2v2, I quit playing with my 2 friends because we couldn't cooperate ingame. It can only be worse when controlling the same units.
I think there should be some ingame feature guiding players to share the workload, such as denying control of something for each player.
A little example: in the heat of the battle, I see that we are close to getting supply blocked. I make 2-3 pylons at home (1st base). I can't say every little thing I do and get confirmation. My friend was thinking of making those pylons at 3rd base. Without realizing I already made them, he makes 2-3 too. There we go, we are out of minerals making unnecessary pylons.
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China6329 Posts
On April 01 2015 19:10 mantequilla wrote:
It's a good idea but still, I don't get how do you share things to do? You should sit side by side or have a good Skype conversation, okey that's doable. But you also have to have a very good plan before game, what will we do? Who will control what?
If two bad players play archon mode, they will perform worse than playing alone. It can only work good, if both players are good and kinda know the correct thing to do in a situation, then you can share the workload. In two bad players' case this only leads to frustration.
It's the same case in 2v2, I quit playing with my 2 friends because we couldn't cooperate ingame. It can only be worse when controlling the same units.
I think there should be some ingame feature guiding players to share the workload, such as denying control of something for each player.
You can simply designate tasks, like one control army only one doing base management only. And to be fair a lot of the players are "bad" because they can't handle all the stuff at once, if one can solely focus on one part of the game it would only get better instead of worse.
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On April 01 2015 15:54 opisska wrote:
I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago.
Well this will have matchmaking, that's a big difference.
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On April 01 2015 19:10 mantequilla wrote:
It's a good idea but still, I don't get how do you share things to do? You should sit side by side or have a good Skype conversation, okey that's doable. But you also have to have a very good plan before game, what will we do? Who will control what?
If two bad players play archon mode, they will perform worse than playing alone. It can only work good, if both players are good and kinda know the correct thing to do in a situation, then you can share the workload. In two bad players' case this only leads to frustration.
It's the same case in 2v2, I quit playing with my 2 friends because we couldn't cooperate ingame. It can only be worse when controlling the same units.
I think there should be some ingame feature guiding players to share the workload, such as denying control of something for each player.
This is pretty much nonsense. If you have such experience, you are not playing with "bad players" but with outright idiots. It doesn't have much to do with how good someone is in the game - if he doesn't want to cooperate, he won't, bronze or masters.
Me and my wife we are pretty bad (I am gold, she doesn't play 1v1 at all but would be silver at best) yet we have some amazing games in 2v2 and routinely beat players with twice the combined APM and much better macro and micro, just because we do not lack the simple human ability to talk with each other.
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On April 01 2015 18:33 ilovegroov wrote:
He probably played with Crank and is happy because they won every game.
He did play with Crank, but only after playing 1v1, and he had so much more fun communicating with Crank and talking about the units to make and what to do with them than he did simply trying to beat some other individual. Even when they were getting frustrated at Tank drops bouncing from their main to their natural and back and evaporating mineral lines, they weren't having a bad time.
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On April 01 2015 19:24 digmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 19:10 mantequilla wrote:
It's a good idea but still, I don't get how do you share things to do? You should sit side by side or have a good Skype conversation, okey that's doable. But you also have to have a very good plan before game, what will we do? Who will control what?
If two bad players play archon mode, they will perform worse than playing alone. It can only work good, if both players are good and kinda know the correct thing to do in a situation, then you can share the workload. In two bad players' case this only leads to frustration.
It's the same case in 2v2, I quit playing with my 2 friends because we couldn't cooperate ingame. It can only be worse when controlling the same units.
I think there should be some ingame feature guiding players to share the workload, such as denying control of something for each player.
You can simply designate tasks, like one control army only one doing base management only. And to be fair a lot of the players are "bad" because they can't handle all the stuff at once, if one can solely focus on one part of the game it would only get better instead of worse.
That's very simplistic thinking. Base management and army control are part of a "strategy". You can't divide strategy unless 2 players see it with the same eye. 1 thinks that "we should get on a defensive posture, since opponent is rushing", other one thinks that they are ok, and does not place that supply depot on the wall, or does not pull scv's to repair the wall. Bam! lings are in your base and you lost the game. Don't forget that SC2 is too fast a game to tell and synchronize everything you are doing (or thinking).
Bad player + bad player = doesn't do any good. maybe even worse, leads to frustration. (gold + gold)
Bad player + good player = good player just have to decide and do pretty much everything. (gold + dia)
good player + good player = now you may just divide the apm. (dia + master)
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Israel2209 Posts
A fun way for friends to play TOGETHER is what this game needed the most.
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That's perfectly correct, but my point is "archon mode" does not solve the "learning curve" or "noob/casual friendliness" problem of the game. Those problems need a different solution.
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On April 01 2015 20:03 mantequilla wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 19:24 digmouse wrote:On April 01 2015 19:10 mantequilla wrote:
It's a good idea but still, I don't get how do you share things to do? You should sit side by side or have a good Skype conversation, okey that's doable. But you also have to have a very good plan before game, what will we do? Who will control what?
If two bad players play archon mode, they will perform worse than playing alone. It can only work good, if both players are good and kinda know the correct thing to do in a situation, then you can share the workload. In two bad players' case this only leads to frustration.
It's the same case in 2v2, I quit playing with my 2 friends because we couldn't cooperate ingame. It can only be worse when controlling the same units.
I think there should be some ingame feature guiding players to share the workload, such as denying control of something for each player.
You can simply designate tasks, like one control army only one doing base management only. And to be fair a lot of the players are "bad" because they can't handle all the stuff at once, if one can solely focus on one part of the game it would only get better instead of worse. That's very simplistic thinking. Base management and army control are part of a "strategy". You can't divide strategy unless 2 players see it with the same eye. 1 thinks that "we should get on a defensive posture, since opponent is rushing", other one thinks that they are ok, and does not place that supply depot on the wall, or does not pull scv's to repair the wall. Bam! lings are in your base and you lost the game. Don't forget that SC2 is too fast a game to tell and synchronize everything you are doing (or thinking). Bad player + bad player = doesn't do any good. maybe even worse, leads to frustration. (gold + gold) Bad player + good player = good player just have to decide and do pretty much everything. (gold + dia) good player + good player = now you may just divide the apm. (dia + master)
Again, the fact that you are just bad at communicating, doesn't mean that everyone has the same problem.
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On April 01 2015 14:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Learning curve. It's why this game is so beautiful at the highest level, the best spectator eSport there is and simultaneously, the albatross around the games neck that is slowly strangling it of oxygen. With the addition of more units, a faster start and more micro, LOTV looks set to push that even further. It's a potential disaster for the games playerbase, as SC2 is one of the most stressful and difficult games to play and even harder to get into now with each passing day. Except...
Archon mode. I played today and it blew my mind. It literally made SC2 twice as easy to play yet without sacrificing any of the complexity. It made the game less stressful and more fun. It added in the enjoyment of playing with a friend, a social element but without the additional stress of handling your own base and economy like 2v2. You share the mental load, you work together to defeat the opponents who can also do the same thing. There's more harass. I was playing with CranK today and I was harassing the main with warp prism immortal drops while he harassed multiple expansions simultaneously with Upgraded Adepts. This is nigh on impossible for one player to control themselves, even at the highest level, but we were able to do it and stay on top of our macro and we had a blast in the process.
The potential of Archon is huge. Think about the scenarios where it could be used.
1) Coaching. Archon mode makes coaching completely viable, you can bring a friend in and let them control a small number of units or gradually instruct them in a build order while handling scout, harass and early defense yourself.
2) Bringing an old player back up to speed. It's a great opportunity to bring an ex-SC2 player back into the fold and ease them in without the stress of having to handle everything themselves.
3) Just a great way for friends to play together. Less stressful than 2v2, yet just as complex as 1v1.
Archon mode has made a believer out of me. I don't want to play SC2 outside of this mode anymore. This lets me enjoy high level SC2 without the countless hours required to get to that level. It lets me learn at my own pace and focus on what I find enjoyable in the game while the other player handles the rest. It might very well be the magic bullet the game is looking for to make it accessible without sacrificing its complexity.
In short, try Archon mode when you get into the beta.
No, SC2 is not the most difficult game to play. At the highest level, it's the most physically demanding game due to the APM needed, but really, it's no more difficult to win than in CS:GO or any other esports that's not overly dependent on RNG. It's very unlikely that archon mode will be the savior of SC2. The general trend for esport games, unlike SC2, is a decreased emphasis on APM requirements as a precondition for success, and an increased emphasis on strategy, timing and twitch skills. So with that in mind, archon mode addresses the symptoms, but not the cause. Of course, another big turn off is the infuriating, seemingly arbitrary, deliberately vague and obfuscated ladder system.
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On April 01 2015 20:31 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 20:03 mantequilla wrote:On April 01 2015 19:24 digmouse wrote:On April 01 2015 19:10 mantequilla wrote:
It's a good idea but still, I don't get how do you share things to do? You should sit side by side or have a good Skype conversation, okey that's doable. But you also have to have a very good plan before game, what will we do? Who will control what?
If two bad players play archon mode, they will perform worse than playing alone. It can only work good, if both players are good and kinda know the correct thing to do in a situation, then you can share the workload. In two bad players' case this only leads to frustration.
It's the same case in 2v2, I quit playing with my 2 friends because we couldn't cooperate ingame. It can only be worse when controlling the same units.
I think there should be some ingame feature guiding players to share the workload, such as denying control of something for each player.
You can simply designate tasks, like one control army only one doing base management only. And to be fair a lot of the players are "bad" because they can't handle all the stuff at once, if one can solely focus on one part of the game it would only get better instead of worse. That's very simplistic thinking. Base management and army control are part of a "strategy". You can't divide strategy unless 2 players see it with the same eye. 1 thinks that "we should get on a defensive posture, since opponent is rushing", other one thinks that they are ok, and does not place that supply depot on the wall, or does not pull scv's to repair the wall. Bam! lings are in your base and you lost the game. Don't forget that SC2 is too fast a game to tell and synchronize everything you are doing (or thinking). Bad player + bad player = doesn't do any good. maybe even worse, leads to frustration. (gold + gold) Bad player + good player = good player just have to decide and do pretty much everything. (gold + dia) good player + good player = now you may just divide the apm. (dia + master) Again, the fact that you are just bad at communicating, doesn't mean that everyone has the same problem.
It may be just you are forgiving with each other's mistakes, and do not get salty at all when you lose Try playing with a more competitive friend.
Anyways my point is: Archon mode is not the solution to this game's learning curve or casual friendliness problems. It's just a fun alternative to 2v2.
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Did they implement the priority thing, so if 2 players control same units simultaneously, the prioritized player's control is dominant? Cuz I remember someone suggesting this at Blizzcon and apparently Blizzard had no been thinking about it by then.
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On April 01 2015 15:59 GoShox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 15:54 opisska wrote:
I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago. Imagine how much these people would freak out over the introduction of the ability to play with other people via local area networks!
I know people will bitch about this but LAN is honestly outdated. Most people don't even use ethernet cables anymore, the one thing it was good for was tournament settings. Of course it comes with its own down sides but that is the price you pay for convenience. But really bringing computers within feet of each other to transfer information is so 90's.
EDIT: yes wireless lan can still be used but at that point it isn't to different from battle.net
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On April 01 2015 20:12 Noam wrote:
A fun way for friends to play TOGETHER is what this game needed the most.
Yeah, if ONLY they had included support for a way for 2, or even 3 or 4 (!!!), friends to play cooperatively with matchmaking against other similar teams!!!! > : ( ... >_>
Snide remarks aside, I am really hyped for this! Gogo archon mode!! :D
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Hi Team Melee, your time to shine has finally come after 15 years.
Maybe there will be a 2v2 Archon Mode match in Proleague someday.
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On April 01 2015 20:52 Kazahk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 15:59 GoShox wrote:On April 01 2015 15:54 opisska wrote:
I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago. Imagine how much these people would freak out over the introduction of the ability to play with other people via local area networks! I know people will bitch about this but LAN is honestly outdated. Most people don't even use ethernet cables anymore, the one thing it was good for was tournament settings. Of course it comes with its own down sides but that is the price you pay for convenience. But really bringing computers within feet of each other to transfer information is so 90's. EDIT: yes wireless lan can still be used but at that point it isn't to different from battle.net
Anyone who takes playing seriously is connected by a cable. There is no practical reason (aside from "I am too lazy to spend half an hour to learn how to configure ethernet network") to use wifi for a desktop computer or even a laptop used at home most of the time (because you should spend most of the time with your laptop at home at a desk with external screen and input devices unless you really love your chiropractic).
edit: why am I even writing this? I got just too distracted by your ignorant remarks about wifi not really relevant for the question of LAN in SC2 (which I honestly think is not that important, at least not for me, because all I want to play is ladder anyway).
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none of my friends really play sc2 since wol and none want to come back. and im still on the fence about this mode since i hate to lose control of anything in sc2 guess ill try it out and hopefully it will be better than i expect 
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Could be great for people who feel the game mechanical requirements are overwhelming, but for hardcore players like me who like to have control over everything (hardcore doesn't mean good, just dedicated) this archon mode has 0 appeal. I'm OK with every way to bring new people to the player base though.
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While I'm not completely sold on Archon Mode to save SC2 I still believe it can bring a new fanbase or return an old one to the game to reduce the mechanically demanding side of StarCraft.
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i think its a great feature, but personally i'm more hyped for the campaign
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 01 2015 17:44 fenix404 wrote:
i frequent a lan center for my gaming, one that is open until 3 am at that. i am the lone starcraft player. everyone else plays LoL and DotA, and now heroes of the storm as well. starcraft's learning curve is the biggest wall for new players.
i really hope to magically get access on two accounts somehow. i want to share this with everyone there, and im sure i could make at least 3 people into regular players with this simple game mode. i wish i had more people irl to share this amazing game with...
Will the "Spawning" feature still work in LotV? As long as I buy LotV will I be able to spawn friends in for Archon Mode? Or is that only for Arcade/UMS?
+ Show Spoiler +On April 01 2015 20:52 Kazahk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 15:59 GoShox wrote:On April 01 2015 15:54 opisska wrote:
I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago. Imagine how much these people would freak out over the introduction of the ability to play with other people via local area networks! I know people will bitch about this but LAN is honestly outdated. Most people don't even use ethernet cables anymore, the one thing it was good for was tournament settings. Of course it comes with its own down sides but that is the price you pay for convenience. But really bringing computers within feet of each other to transfer information is so 90's. EDIT: yes wireless lan can still be used but at that point it isn't to different from battle.net
LAN eliminates the need for B.Net. There will be zero lag - ISP problems? Blizz getting ddos'd? Wouldn't matter if you had some buddies over because you could just disconnect and keep on playing...
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Katowice25012 Posts
The predecessor to Archon Mode, team melee in BroodWar, was one of my favorite aspects of that game. It was also mega awesome in TL Attack, and I'm super happy people are trying it out in LotV now. I don't know if I'd say its a magic bullet of any kind of but it is definitely crazy fun.
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Yeah this seems relly nice! Hope i get da Beta soon!
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Archon mode MAY very well be the magic bullet
Now it scans.
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They say the most important way to make a competitive game appeal to casual players is to put them in a team so that not every mistake is entirely their fault, implying they can put more blame on their allies, which is much less stressful.
I actually think that logic is flawed when it comes to online games. Because if you can effectively blame your allies, lots of people are going to blame their allies and that creates an awfull playing experience. The appeal of MOBA's and CS has much more to do with the actual game being a ton simpler to learnand less stresful to play (while maintaining a high skillcap) than the teamgame experience. At least in soloq, the social experience is really awfull.
Yes archon mode can have its charm. If you have 2 friends who are less skilled, they could now have fun playing vs you. And it does indeed reduce the mechanical entrance barrier to the game, which I believe is good.
But w/ regards to playing with random people as teammates, I don't see teamgames as the big solution here. I think its confusing correlation w/ causation.
Instead, the best solution is to make Starcraft a ton easier to learn while maintaining a very high skillcap.
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I am so excited for Archon Mode. I've had several friends who dropped SC2 a while ago who got REALLY EXCITED when I told them about Archon Mode. Can't wait to bring them back to the fold!
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I genuinely cannot wait to try this with friends. Combined with the popularity of recent 2v2 tournaments and we might see a comeback for SC2
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I'm totally ready to abandon 2v2 with my more causal friends and play this; sounds so much more interesting and fun.
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Honest opinion : Archon mode is a gimmick and will be forgotten about less than 2 months after release
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I still play team games every week with my AHGL team. For those who don't ever play team games anymore, it's probably easy to feel archon mode as a gimmick, but I think for those who actively play 2s this mode is going to be a lot of fun, especially for newer players.
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Was watching JP and djWheat play it
You mean the traitor game switchers, back for all the dirty esports money?
User was warned for this post
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You guys don't have to wait to play with each other like in Archon mode.
I made a SC1 Game modes Extension mod which has Team Melee as a mode.
Here are all the modes.
-Team Melee [ Teams share control and resources of 1 base, standard melee victory. Just like Archon mode, except you can have more than 2 players on a team. The only draw back is that you have to select a map that has slots for at least the number of players playing. ]
-Capture the Flag [ Capture a set amount of enemy flags to win. ]
-King of the Hill [ Each unit on the hill grants you 1 point, reach the point limit to win. Hill randomly moves around the map. ]
-Greed [ Mine a set amount of minerals first to win. ]
-Slaughter [ Be the first to reach a certain kill count to win. ]
Here's a link to the extension mod!
battlenet://starcraft/map/1/235631
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I think I can see an archon league happening. At least, a lot more than a 2v2 league lol.
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China6329 Posts
On April 01 2015 23:35 Noocta wrote:
Honest opinion : Archon mode is a gimmick and will be forgotten about less than 2 months after release
It was in Brood War 17 years ago and it is not forgotten. Move on.
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Of course it's okay when a community celebrity says it like Huk or Destiny ^^
Classy.
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United States97276 Posts
I'm pretty excited about archon mode. for a long time when playing 2v2 with one of my friends we would share unit control and play kind of a crappy version of archon mode with one person controlling the army and the other managing the game
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Awesome write-up Hoping to see some archon mode games cast, as it sounds like it would be inherently more balanced than standard 2v2.
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what if they added 2v2 archon mode? two sets of 2 people against another 2 sets?
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If anyone wants to watch, Naniwa and Sortof are queueing archon mode right now
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Archon Mode has been in the game since 2012. It's a custom game called MacroMicro. It actually infuriates me to see all these people pretend like Blizzard has made some kind of huge breakthrough or that it's going to change everything when all they did was jack some other dude's idea and sell + market it as their own. I'm aware that they have the ability to this legally but it still rankles me.
Yes, Blizzard propping up Archon mode will give it more visibility and allow more people to play with it. Yes, Archon mode is fun and will let lower level players enjoy the depth of StarCraft. But if that's been the case since 2011, what could possibly change that didn't before now?
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Literally the first response when Archon made was announced was to say it was exactly the same as team melee in BW. Not a single person has said this is some great invention by Blizzard. But people will say it is a nice addition.
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On April 02 2015 01:29 Vogue wrote:
Archon Mode has been in the game since 2012. It's a custom game called MacroMicro. It actually infuriates me to see all these people pretend like Blizzard has made some kind of huge breakthrough or that it's going to change everything when all they did was jack some other dude's idea and sell + market it as their own. I'm aware that they have the ability to this legally but it still rankles me.
Yes, Blizzard propping up Archon mode will give it more visibility and allow more people to play with it. Yes, Archon mode is fun and will let lower level players enjoy the depth of StarCraft. But if that's been the case since 2011, what could possibly change that didn't before now?
99% of the games happen in matchmaking
Archon will have matchmaking
1+1 = ?
Also as said multiples times by multiple people now, Archon mode has been around in BW as well, there's nothing new about it. It's the way they're approaching it.
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Archon matchmaker is the good beef. Archon ladder will let people test their skill. Custom map isn't the place for that.
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On April 02 2015 01:29 Vogue wrote:
Archon Mode has been in the game since 2012. It's a custom game called MacroMicro. It actually infuriates me to see all these people pretend like Blizzard has made some kind of huge breakthrough or that it's going to change everything when all they did was jack some other dude's idea and sell + market it as their own. I'm aware that they have the ability to this legally but it still rankles me.
Yes, Blizzard propping up Archon mode will give it more visibility and allow more people to play with it. Yes, Archon mode is fun and will let lower level players enjoy the depth of StarCraft. But if that's been the case since 2011, what could possibly change that didn't before now?
Welcome to a giant strawman, YOUR POST!
Comparing a custom game to an official mode with proper matchmaking is beyond stupid. Custom games dont get played, its that simple. The existence of micro/macro is completely irrelevant, most people dont even know about it. An official mode with a proper ranking system is essential.
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I truly hope so. As someone who watches a ton of StarCraft but can never make it past gold on ladder I am really looking forward to simply having fun in Archon Mode with my mate, instead of stressing as I fail to macro and micro like the pros I watch everyday in this truly wonderful eSport.
The game does have a hard skill curve and modes like this help to remedy that so I am really excited for it.
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On April 01 2015 21:26 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 20:52 Kazahk wrote:On April 01 2015 15:59 GoShox wrote:On April 01 2015 15:54 opisska wrote:
I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago. Imagine how much these people would freak out over the introduction of the ability to play with other people via local area networks! I know people will bitch about this but LAN is honestly outdated. Most people don't even use ethernet cables anymore, the one thing it was good for was tournament settings. Of course it comes with its own down sides but that is the price you pay for convenience. But really bringing computers within feet of each other to transfer information is so 90's. EDIT: yes wireless lan can still be used but at that point it isn't to different from battle.net Anyone who takes playing seriously is connected by a cable. There is no practical reason (aside from "I am too lazy to spend half an hour to learn how to configure ethernet network") to use wifi for a desktop computer or even a laptop used at home most of the time (because you should spend most of the time with your laptop at home at a desk with external screen and input devices unless you really love your chiropractic). edit: why am I even writing this? I got just too distracted by your ignorant remarks about wifi not really relevant for the question of LAN in SC2 (which I honestly think is not that important, at least not for me, because all I want to play is ladder anyway).
Seriously? You see "no practical reason to use wifi for a desktop computer"? Geez wonder how people with big houses and several computers (in different rooms) use the internet...
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On April 02 2015 01:53 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 21:26 opisska wrote:On April 01 2015 20:52 Kazahk wrote:On April 01 2015 15:59 GoShox wrote:On April 01 2015 15:54 opisska wrote:
I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago. Imagine how much these people would freak out over the introduction of the ability to play with other people via local area networks! I know people will bitch about this but LAN is honestly outdated. Most people don't even use ethernet cables anymore, the one thing it was good for was tournament settings. Of course it comes with its own down sides but that is the price you pay for convenience. But really bringing computers within feet of each other to transfer information is so 90's. EDIT: yes wireless lan can still be used but at that point it isn't to different from battle.net Anyone who takes playing seriously is connected by a cable. There is no practical reason (aside from "I am too lazy to spend half an hour to learn how to configure ethernet network") to use wifi for a desktop computer or even a laptop used at home most of the time (because you should spend most of the time with your laptop at home at a desk with external screen and input devices unless you really love your chiropractic). edit: why am I even writing this? I got just too distracted by your ignorant remarks about wifi not really relevant for the question of LAN in SC2 (which I honestly think is not that important, at least not for me, because all I want to play is ladder anyway). Seriously? You see "no practical reason to use wifi for a desktop computer"? Geez wonder how people with big houses and several computers (in different rooms) use the internet...
If they have any care about performance and reliability, they connect them using several cables and a router. It really is that simple. You should try to avoid sounding condescending if you lack the corresponding technical knowledge.
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On April 02 2015 01:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 01:29 Vogue wrote:
Archon Mode has been in the game since 2012. It's a custom game called MacroMicro. It actually infuriates me to see all these people pretend like Blizzard has made some kind of huge breakthrough or that it's going to change everything when all they did was jack some other dude's idea and sell + market it as their own. I'm aware that they have the ability to this legally but it still rankles me.
Yes, Blizzard propping up Archon mode will give it more visibility and allow more people to play with it. Yes, Archon mode is fun and will let lower level players enjoy the depth of StarCraft. But if that's been the case since 2011, what could possibly change that didn't before now? Welcome to a giant strawman, YOUR POST! Comparing a custom game to an official mode with proper matchmaking is beyond stupid. Custom games dont get played, its that simple. The existence of micro/macro is completely irrelevant, most people dont even know about it. An official mode with a proper ranking system is essential.
I'm glad to see that you're optimistic about Archon Mode, but it's equally important that everyone else manages their expectations around moving something that has existed all along into a more visible place. I personally don't think that Archon Mode will be anything more than a diversion akin the StarJeweled or StarCraft Master, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
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This may be even more fun to watch than 1v1s.
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On April 01 2015 14:23 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:"when you get into beta" ..... Don't make me cry
Indeed, looking forward to this the most about LotV!
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Great post TB, makes me want to play Archon mode with my friend even more when we get in the beta! He could probably learn how to macro better and I could multitask better as well!
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anyone want to play archon mode with me?
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On April 01 2015 14:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:With the addition of more units, a faster start and more micro, LOTV looks set to push that even further.
More micro, faster pace, quicker initial set up for battle.... sounds like all those ex-C&C devs at Blizzard are having an influence on the game design. its nice to see.
On April 01 2015 14:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:. It might very well be the magic bullet the game is looking for to make it accessible without sacrificing its complexity.
In short, try Archon mode when you get into the beta.
Blizzard is doing a great job breathing new life into the RTS genre. I'm sure LotV will be another great game.
However, the RTS genre will continue its decline no matter what Blizzard does.
When the general public wants the "big army fighting big army" experience they turn on their tablets and play games like Boom Beach, Game of War, and Clash of Clans. Nothing Blizzard can do will stop this trend.
The RTS Genre is in the same stage the dot-eating-maze-game genre was in 1990.. its tough to attract new players when the general public is spending less and less time on your platform of choice.
Archon mode should be fun though!
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Of course we don't all have the luxury to play Archon mode with Crank  .
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On April 02 2015 01:45 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 01:29 Vogue wrote:
Archon Mode has been in the game since 2012. It's a custom game called MacroMicro. It actually infuriates me to see all these people pretend like Blizzard has made some kind of huge breakthrough or that it's going to change everything when all they did was jack some other dude's idea and sell + market it as their own. I'm aware that they have the ability to this legally but it still rankles me.
Yes, Blizzard propping up Archon mode will give it more visibility and allow more people to play with it. Yes, Archon mode is fun and will let lower level players enjoy the depth of StarCraft. But if that's been the case since 2011, what could possibly change that didn't before now? Welcome to a giant strawman, YOUR POST! Comparing a custom game to an official mode with proper matchmaking is beyond stupid. Custom games dont get played, its that simple. The existence of micro/macro is completely irrelevant, most people dont even know about it. An official mode with a proper ranking system is essential.
And they had implemented it in bw, if memory serves, so it's not like they stole it from the micro macro guy.
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On April 02 2015 06:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 14:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:With the addition of more units, a faster start and more micro, LOTV looks set to push that even further. More micro, faster pace, quicker initial set up for battle.... sounds like all those ex-C&C devs at Blizzard are having an influence on the game design. its nice to see. Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 14:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:. It might very well be the magic bullet the game is looking for to make it accessible without sacrificing its complexity.
In short, try Archon mode when you get into the beta. Blizzard is doing a great job breathing new life into the RTS genre. I'm sure LotV will be another great game. However, the RTS genre will continue its decline no matter what Blizzard does. When the general public wants the "big army fighting big army" experience they turn on their tablets and play games like Boom Beach, Game of War, and Clash of Clans. Nothing Blizzard can do will stop this trend. The RTS Genre is in the same stage the dot-eating-maze-game genre was in 1990.. its tough to attract new players when the general public is spending less and less time on your platform of choice. Archon mode should be fun though!
I'm no video game market expert, but I don't think we can know the genre's interest is necessarily in decline. I think sc2 is stuck in an archaic pay model and no one else is trying to directly compete with the franchise. No other rts, besides wc3 (which was also really popular in the not too distant past), has tried very hard to be a high level competitive game. What you're saying doesn't account for any of the other variables that go into sc2's popularity, which have been talked about at length, and it doesn't account for the fact that in 4 and a half years sc2 has sold over six million copies. The only other PC game released in the last decade that has outsold it is minecraft. I don't think people mind the genre, I think people mind paying $60 for an esport title when they can play dota2 or lol for free.
Either way, lotv can only be a good thing and the places archon mode might take us are really exciting.
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I imagine playing archon mode with Crank is like riding a tandem bike with Bradley Wiggins.
TB, if you read this, what do you think about a show (whimsically titled "Hard Carry") where Crank plays archon ladder (or 2v1 vs someone else from Ax) with a rotating set of subs (preferabbly sub-plat/total noob/ or maybe even people of LoL/Dota/CSGO/HS fame)? Imagine the hilarity of say, Richard Lewis and Crank executing a mass reaper strat / sieged tank medivac harass :D
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U just imagine early protoss preassure TvP in Archon, kiting stalkers and Morthership until death.
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8748 Posts
On April 02 2015 01:29 Vogue wrote:
Archon Mode has been in the game since 2012. It's a custom game called MacroMicro. It actually infuriates me to see all these people pretend like Blizzard has made some kind of huge breakthrough or that it's going to change everything when all they did was jack some other dude's idea and sell + market it as their own. I'm aware that they have the ability to this legally but it still rankles me.
Yes, Blizzard propping up Archon mode will give it more visibility and allow more people to play with it. Yes, Archon mode is fun and will let lower level players enjoy the depth of StarCraft. But if that's been the case since 2011, what could possibly change that didn't before now?
It's the same thing as Team Melee which was in SC1. The only differences as far as I can tell are that the supply limit isn't raised and it's not possible to have workers of different races. Those were more like quirks though. The basic concept of multiple people controlling the same base and army is the same. We used to play those games on TL Attack. There'd be three mediocre players versus the featured pro player and it'd always be very hard for the pro to win. I know I lost mine.
Blizzard can't just promote any game mode the way they are doing Archon mode. Choosing to promote something like Archon mode is making a decision about how they want SC2 to be perceived and played. There are a million possible mods out there. The hard part isn't coming up with the idea and making the mod. It's about knowing what's good for the game. I think TotalBiscuit makes good points about why Archon mode could be very satisfying and fill in an important gap for a portion of players.
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Cool beans. I always loved MacroMicro mod to play with a friend, can't wait to try this out with matchmaking!
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Katowice25012 Posts
The TL Attack team melee game was seriously the best shit. We had the IRC team of intrigue/rage/littlechava and they won almost every time, looking through some archives I think Dreiven might have been the only person to beat them (but for some reason they didn't play vs Sea[Shield]).
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On April 02 2015 06:59 d_runk wrote:
I imagine playing archon mode with Crank is like riding a tandem bike with Bradley Wiggins.
TB, if you read this, what do you think about a show (whimsically titled "Hard Carry") where Crank plays archon ladder (or 2v1 vs someone else from Ax) with a rotating set of subs (preferabbly sub-plat/total noob/ or maybe even people of LoL/Dota/CSGO/HS fame)? Imagine the hilarity of say, Richard Lewis and Crank executing a mass reaper strat / sieged tank medivac harass :D
I would absolutely watch this.
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TB showing off archon mode with Crank. Fun games
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Archon mode is so much fun, I'm laughing so much at this mode.
I really missed this from BW
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On April 01 2015 22:19 Heyoka wrote:
The predecessor to Archon Mode, team melee in BroodWar, was one of my favorite aspects of that game. It was also mega awesome in TL Attack, and I'm super happy people are trying it out in LotV now. I don't know if I'd say its a magic bullet of any kind of but it is definitely crazy fun.
Remember how in Team Melee it was possible to spawn with some workers belonging to a different race? I really hope they add such a feature to LotV. Think of the possibilities that would be allowed. Imagine thors and tanks using nydus worms (yes, that is possible).
Edit:
On April 02 2015 07:51 Heyoka wrote:
The TL Attack team melee game was seriously the best shit. We had the IRC team of intrigue/rage/littlechava and they won almost every time, looking through some archives I think Dreiven might have been the only person to beat them (but for some reason they didn't play vs Sea[Shield]).
Know where I can find vods of these? Or replays?
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 RedArchon is grinding out games pretty hard, looking forward to what he can achieve in LotV!
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On April 02 2015 11:52 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 22:19 Heyoka wrote:
The predecessor to Archon Mode, team melee in BroodWar, was one of my favorite aspects of that game. It was also mega awesome in TL Attack, and I'm super happy people are trying it out in LotV now. I don't know if I'd say its a magic bullet of any kind of but it is definitely crazy fun. Remember how in Team Melee it was possible to spawn with some workers belonging to a different race? I really hope they add such a feature to LotV. Think of the possibilities that would be allowed. Imagine thors and tanks using nydus worms (yes, that is possible). Edit: Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 07:51 Heyoka wrote:
The TL Attack team melee game was seriously the best shit. We had the IRC team of intrigue/rage/littlechava and they won almost every time, looking through some archives I think Dreiven might have been the only person to beat them (but for some reason they didn't play vs Sea[Shield]). Know where I can find vods of these? Or replays?
I'm sure mods of this could be done.. but I doubt it would generate much interest. Custom/arcade just takes a HUGE backseat to anything with matchmaking.
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Man, Crank really has decent English. Nice stuff, TB
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I'm loving watching archon mode and hope it takes off for show matches, bonus maps in tournaments and so on. I can see skilled archon players making for amazing watching.
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I think Archon mode has the potential to become a competitive format on its own. It combines the communication and teamwork aspects of games like CS:GO, TF2, Dota 2, etc with Starcraft's strategy.
I think someone should make a tournament of this. Who knows, maybe they'll expand archon mode to 3 or more players.
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Does Archon mode currently work in a "2 archons vs 2 archons" setting? Meaning four players on each team, two controlling the same base? Or is it just 1v1?
I have a few friends who want to try LotV and it would be fun to play with all of them at once without the intense APM required to manage a base all by yourself.
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On April 02 2015 11:52 Cheren wrote:RedArchon is grinding out games pretty hard, looking forward to what he can achieve in LotV!
I wish he was going to be playing Archon mode and never get the Red team color. It'd be fantastic to see him constantly defeat himself.
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I'd love to see ProLeague Ace matches happen in Archon mode.
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my sentiments when i heard about it exactly.
glad its working correctly
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On April 02 2015 02:33 Barrin wrote:Note: There are 2 players max per team in both Archon Mode(?) and MicroMacro, but not Team Melee.
Related: In Team Melee, you could potentially start with more than 1 race's workers (so maybe 2 scv's, a probe, and a drone) and you had up to 200 supply for each race, which probably isn't the case in Archon Mode.
Wow now I really want to see SC2 multi-race team melee, I hadn't thought about that. XD
It works out great too, you can have 4 of each worker at the start.
Now that would be a deep game. (Probably. maybeee.)
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Poland3748 Posts
Oh, TB good point. I was focusing a lot more on new units etc. and somehow overlooked possible fun Archon brings.
TB: do you think Archon is viable as an alternative tournament format?
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I'd watch the crap out of an Archon tournament. I think it has some incredible potential.
+ Show Spoiler +I am already dreaming of matches with my favorite players teamed together...
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I would just like to say that you had this in Age of Empires II when both players selected the same team colour. It was amazing and I can't wait to play Archon mode for FREE! Blizzard *wink-wink* Also think of all the custom games oh god YES!
+ Show Spoiler +I think the title is missing "may"
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I agree with this post, i want to see archon mode more than anything else.
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I watched Destiny and kaitlyn play for a few hours last night, and archon mode looks incredibly fun... although I could see it destroying a few friendships in the process lol.
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On April 02 2015 15:51 nimdil wrote:
Oh, TB good point. I was focusing a lot more on new units etc. and somehow overlooked possible fun Archon brings.
TB: do you think Archon is viable as an alternative tournament format?
I'd say its viable as an alternative tournament format, at least worth trying out.
Pros are amazing no doubt but they can't actually be in two places at once but it would be a different skillset at super high level with similar openers of course but vastly different mid and endgames.
At the moment for instance its difficult to effectively split your army, mainly because you can't effectively micro in two places. With two players you can, so now that MMM ball in both TvZ and TvP can be properly split and properly micro'd. Tanks could be constantly pushed forward whilst vikings and hellions prod, poke and defend against harassment.
The game could potentially open up to a huge variety of play.
Of course this isn't guarantee'd, if the game doesn't play that way it doesn't play that way so unless strategy does open with more eyes on the field its not going to really be worth it. On the flip side, too much going on could become a nightmare to spectate, one of SC2s greatest elements is the simplicity of spectating, sure you might not understand units and strategies but when a big army collides you generally see it, but with lots of small skirmishes it could become difficult to follow.
I'm still hopeful though, I'd love to keep the main 1v1 format for the kings of SC2 but it could be a good platform for solid B-teamers to really shine in archon mode, and maybe even level the Korean / Foreigner playing field so some of our creativity can start to shine through their mechanical dominance.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On April 02 2015 11:52 codonbyte wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 22:19 Heyoka wrote:
The predecessor to Archon Mode, team melee in BroodWar, was one of my favorite aspects of that game. It was also mega awesome in TL Attack, and I'm super happy people are trying it out in LotV now. I don't know if I'd say its a magic bullet of any kind of but it is definitely crazy fun. Remember how in Team Melee it was possible to spawn with some workers belonging to a different race? I really hope they add such a feature to LotV. Think of the possibilities that would be allowed. Imagine thors and tanks using nydus worms (yes, that is possible). Edit: Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 07:51 Heyoka wrote:
The TL Attack team melee game was seriously the best shit. We had the IRC team of intrigue/rage/littlechava and they won almost every time, looking through some archives I think Dreiven might have been the only person to beat them (but for some reason they didn't play vs Sea[Shield]). Know where I can find vods of these? Or replays?
You can find VODs and the various threads for the old BW TL:A episodes on Liquipedia here. I watched through some last night and it was a bit of a trip.
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On April 02 2015 06:56 robopork wrote:
I'm no video game market expert, but I don't think we can know the genre's interest is necessarily in decline. I think sc2 is stuck in an archaic pay model and no one else is trying to directly compete with the franchise. No other rts, besides wc3 (which was also really popular in the not too distant past), has tried very hard to be a high level competitive game. What you're saying doesn't account for any of the other variables that go into sc2's popularity, which have been talked about at length, and it doesn't account for the fact that in 4 and a half years sc2 has sold over six million copies. The only other PC game released in the last decade that has outsold it is minecraft. I don't think people mind the genre, I think people mind paying $60 for an esport title when they can play dota2 or lol for free.
Either way, lotv can only be a good thing and the places archon mode might take us are really exciting.
Blizzard acknowledges the genre's over all decline in this article
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/even-blizzard-isnt-sure-how-to-save-the-rts-genre-/1100-6423466/
TotalBiscuit and Blizzard's Tim Morten are both talking about "magic bullets". Furthermore, based upon TB's posting here it appears Blizzard has accomplished its stated goals with Archon mode.
the only major publisher making RTS games is Blizzard. EA and Microsoft have abandoned the genre.
It is true that a rising tide floats all boats higher. The opposite is also true.
All this said, none of this should have any impact on the fun a niche community can have playing a game they are enthusiastic about.
LotV will probably end up being amazingly great fun. Just as WoL, HotS, WC3, Brood War and WC2 all were.
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On April 02 2015 17:38 GreenHorizons wrote:I'd watch the crap out of an Archon tournament. I think it has some incredible potential. + Show Spoiler +I am already dreaming of matches with my favorite players teamed together...
I know. Imagine some ridiculous archons with the best macro and micro players of each race. E.g. Maru/Cure, Dream/INnoVation, Zest/herO, Rain/PartinG, Life/soO, Dark/Rogue. :O
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On April 02 2015 22:42 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 17:38 GreenHorizons wrote:I'd watch the crap out of an Archon tournament. I think it has some incredible potential. + Show Spoiler +I am already dreaming of matches with my favorite players teamed together... I know. Imagine some ridiculous archons with the best macro and micro players of each race. E.g. Maru/Cure, Dream/INnoVation, Zest/herO, Rain/PartinG, Life/soO, Dark/Rogue. :O
The fun thing about imagining a competitive archon mode is that you can't just pair good solo players together. You have to think about how good they are at communicating, how they can play well with their partner. It introduces the aspect of communication in competitive that SC never really had except when they had 2v2 in BW prologue.
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"Archon Mode" was formerly known as "Team Melee" in SC1 (it was an official game mode, like melee was). It's amazing that blizzard is promoting this mode with the matchmaking as well, props to whoever at blizz decided to highlight this mode
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Such maps already exists in arcade, perhaps it could have gotten popular without blizzard's arcade sorting.
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So basically this is what we knew as team melee in BW. or instead of being able to share control or resources with one another and having teams so you can focus on one race and army. we get this?
this should have been in the game from day one. technically it was just two armies for the price of one.
On April 03 2015 00:25 avilo wrote:"Archon Mode" was formerly known as "Team Melee" in SC1 (it was an official game mode, like melee was). It's amazing that blizzard is promoting this mode with the matchmaking as well, props to whoever at blizz decided to highlight this mode
I have a hard time giving props when such things date back to games like vanilla BW. It was fun back then, although very few people played the game setting back then unless it was a private game with friends. Matchmaking with it was imperative.
If I were Blizzard I would go back to trying to reinvent the wheel. They don't really have any fresh ideas and that's why we're seeing old ideas come back to the forefront. Everything from units to game settings.
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can archon mode be a legit tournament mode? Like a tournament just with full on archon mode or is it too gimmicky, meaning good for watching couple of matches every now and then but not quite what 1v1 is
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Team Melee was sadly a victim of (dare I say it) BW elitism.
'Real' teams played 2v2 because that took more coordination. And solo players were not interested in team games anyway.
I remember one clan league had three 1v1s, one 2v2 and one Team Melee early on. But even then the TM was more of a joker round, because nobody had dedicated practice or set pairs.
Unfortunately I see this happening with Archon Mode again, a fun game mode for casuals but no pro will take it serious. (Unless KeSPA comes out of left field and integrates it into Proleague.)
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PL already had gimmicks and no one took it seriously even in the 2v2s. Then again there were some god awful maps.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 03 2015 00:58 StarStruck wrote:So basically this is what we knew as team melee in BW. or instead of being able to share control or resources with one another and having teams so you can focus on one race and army. we get this? this should have been in the game from day one. technically it was just two armies for the price of one. Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 00:25 avilo wrote:"Archon Mode" was formerly known as "Team Melee" in SC1 (it was an official game mode, like melee was). It's amazing that blizzard is promoting this mode with the matchmaking as well, props to whoever at blizz decided to highlight this mode I have a hard time giving props when such things date back to games like vanilla BW. It was fun back then, although very few people played the game setting back then unless it was a private game with friends. Matchmaking with it was imperative. If I were Blizzard I would go back to trying to reinvent the wheel. They don't really have any fresh ideas and that's why we're seeing old ideas come back to the forefront. Everything from units to game settings.
I think it's very unfair to compare the implementation of Team Melee in BW to archon mode in SC2... Just because the expected standards of including a game mode in a like Sc2 are just soooooo much higher than they were back then. I'm sure they have a lot of ideas for things they'd like to include that just require too much work to easily put in without it being a hackjob (team melee replays can not be viewed in SC1, do you think that would fly in SC2, for example?).
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Canada11363 Posts
On April 03 2015 02:35 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 00:58 StarStruck wrote:So basically this is what we knew as team melee in BW. or instead of being able to share control or resources with one another and having teams so you can focus on one race and army. we get this? this should have been in the game from day one. technically it was just two armies for the price of one. On April 03 2015 00:25 avilo wrote:"Archon Mode" was formerly known as "Team Melee" in SC1 (it was an official game mode, like melee was). It's amazing that blizzard is promoting this mode with the matchmaking as well, props to whoever at blizz decided to highlight this mode I have a hard time giving props when such things date back to games like vanilla BW. It was fun back then, although very few people played the game setting back then unless it was a private game with friends. Matchmaking with it was imperative. If I were Blizzard I would go back to trying to reinvent the wheel. They don't really have any fresh ideas and that's why we're seeing old ideas come back to the forefront. Everything from units to game settings. (team melee replays can not be viewed in SC1, do you think that would fly in SC2, for example?).
This always makes me a sad panda. I've recently been using Team Melee with friends in BW just because it's a long time into playing games for most of them, and I think it's easier to divide control than to control everything. But not being able to watch the replay at the end is so sad
While I don't understand why they didn't include Team Melee to start with, Archon Mode is definitely Team Melee + when you consider automatchmaking. Having a ranking system is huge! I really hope they double down on promoting this mode because honestly I haven't been all that excited about SC2 for awhile, but this is actually intriguing to me.
Next up- they should really have 2v2v2v2 matchmaking. Sooo much more interesting thant 4v4.
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On April 03 2015 02:46 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 02:35 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On April 03 2015 00:58 StarStruck wrote:So basically this is what we knew as team melee in BW. or instead of being able to share control or resources with one another and having teams so you can focus on one race and army. we get this? this should have been in the game from day one. technically it was just two armies for the price of one. On April 03 2015 00:25 avilo wrote:"Archon Mode" was formerly known as "Team Melee" in SC1 (it was an official game mode, like melee was). It's amazing that blizzard is promoting this mode with the matchmaking as well, props to whoever at blizz decided to highlight this mode I have a hard time giving props when such things date back to games like vanilla BW. It was fun back then, although very few people played the game setting back then unless it was a private game with friends. Matchmaking with it was imperative. If I were Blizzard I would go back to trying to reinvent the wheel. They don't really have any fresh ideas and that's why we're seeing old ideas come back to the forefront. Everything from units to game settings. (team melee replays can not be viewed in SC1, do you think that would fly in SC2, for example?). This always makes me a sad panda. I've recently been using Team Melee with friends in BW just because it's a long time into playing games for most of them, and I think it's easier to divide control than to control everything. But not being able to watch the replay at the end is so sad While I don't understand why they didn't include Team Melee to start with, Archon Mode is definitely Team Melee + when you consider automatchmaking. Having a ranking system is huge! I really hope they double down on promoting this mode because honestly I haven't been all that excited about SC2 for awhile, but this is actually intriguing to me. Next up- they should really have 2v2v2v2 matchmaking. Sooo much more interesting thant 4v4.
I'd be interested to see the statistics of 1v1 vs Not-1v1 games played per day. I'm guessing 1v1 is probably hundreds if not thousands orders of magnitude larger. Which is nice because Archon is basically a flavor of 1v1. It is too hard to make a balanced game outside of the 1v1 environment so team games will always inherently be flawed.
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Canada11363 Posts
On April 03 2015 02:53 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 02:46 Falling wrote:On April 03 2015 02:35 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On April 03 2015 00:58 StarStruck wrote:So basically this is what we knew as team melee in BW. or instead of being able to share control or resources with one another and having teams so you can focus on one race and army. we get this? this should have been in the game from day one. technically it was just two armies for the price of one. On April 03 2015 00:25 avilo wrote:"Archon Mode" was formerly known as "Team Melee" in SC1 (it was an official game mode, like melee was). It's amazing that blizzard is promoting this mode with the matchmaking as well, props to whoever at blizz decided to highlight this mode I have a hard time giving props when such things date back to games like vanilla BW. It was fun back then, although very few people played the game setting back then unless it was a private game with friends. Matchmaking with it was imperative. If I were Blizzard I would go back to trying to reinvent the wheel. They don't really have any fresh ideas and that's why we're seeing old ideas come back to the forefront. Everything from units to game settings. (team melee replays can not be viewed in SC1, do you think that would fly in SC2, for example?). This always makes me a sad panda. I've recently been using Team Melee with friends in BW just because it's a long time into playing games for most of them, and I think it's easier to divide control than to control everything. But not being able to watch the replay at the end is so sad While I don't understand why they didn't include Team Melee to start with, Archon Mode is definitely Team Melee + when you consider automatchmaking. Having a ranking system is huge! I really hope they double down on promoting this mode because honestly I haven't been all that excited about SC2 for awhile, but this is actually intriguing to me. Next up- they should really have 2v2v2v2 matchmaking. Sooo much more interesting thant 4v4. I'd be interested to see the statistics of 1v1 vs Not-1v1 games played per day. I'm guessing 1v1 is probably hundreds if not thousands orders of magnitude larger. Which is nice because Archon is basically a flavor of 1v1. It is too hard to make a balanced game outside of the 1v1 environment so team games will always inherently be flawed.
Not to mention, I think it's much harder to figure how to make good maps for anything other than 1v1. I've been playing a bit of Wings with some friends and I think pretty much all the 3v3 and 4v4 maps suck- even with super basic crap like two double wide entrances front and back into the main. Or main minerals that can be hit by siege tanks or cannons built outside the base with a super long distance for workers to travel to kill proxy pylon at the bottom of the cliff. Archon mode, they can actually use proper tourney maps instead of crappy Blizzard maps *fingers crossed.
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On April 03 2015 02:35 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 00:58 StarStruck wrote:So basically this is what we knew as team melee in BW. or instead of being able to share control or resources with one another and having teams so you can focus on one race and army. we get this? this should have been in the game from day one. technically it was just two armies for the price of one. On April 03 2015 00:25 avilo wrote:"Archon Mode" was formerly known as "Team Melee" in SC1 (it was an official game mode, like melee was). It's amazing that blizzard is promoting this mode with the matchmaking as well, props to whoever at blizz decided to highlight this mode I have a hard time giving props when such things date back to games like vanilla BW. It was fun back then, although very few people played the game setting back then unless it was a private game with friends. Matchmaking with it was imperative. If I were Blizzard I would go back to trying to reinvent the wheel. They don't really have any fresh ideas and that's why we're seeing old ideas come back to the forefront. Everything from units to game settings. I think it's very unfair to compare the implementation of Team Melee in BW to archon mode in SC2... Just because the expected standards of including a game mode in a like Sc2 are just soooooo much higher than they were back then. I'm sure they have a lot of ideas for things they'd like to include that just require too much work to easily put in without it being a hackjob (team melee replays can not be viewed in SC1, do you think that would fly in SC2, for example?).
There weren't any expectations for BW though. It's as Blizzard put it.. a complete fluke. There were many more modes in BW. However their popularity was limited due to the great UMS community who came up with things similar. Well aware you couldn't watch those replays back then. It makes perfect sense though for that mode to continue on and the whole replay thing attached to it is just logical.
You can say there was no time to implement everything. Look what they did with B.Net just to push the game out. We're used to delays but come on they knew it wasn't ready. This is just something that makes sense. Heck we might have played team melee rarely but that doesn't mean we didn't play it and had fun with it. We had a lot of other things to help coach players back then. I still think it would have been wild without replays. It changed the landscape so much when that came around.
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I absolutely HATED this in BW. It wasn't fun and just made the game feel awful. I'll obviously give it another shot in SC2 but I doubt it'll 'save esports'.
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i'm sorry but there's a "might" missing in the OP title
don't know if anyone already mentioned this but for some reasons it's getting on my NERVES
just in case i need some on topic material, totalbiscuit very well be right on this matter
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I think archon mode can be a useful tool to introduce new players to the game. No doubt. I'm afraid the best way to play it if there is a big skull difference is to have the better player play alone essentially, so the ranked mode may still be demoralising for noobs.
Regarding competitive play, I really don't see what this brings over 2 on 2. I'd much rather have my two favourite players each play their main race and make beautiful things together than being able to slightly better micro and macro at the same time. I think most people wouldn't see a difference from normal 1 on 1 most of the time.
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Actually, micro macro is better for new players, as the best way to play isn't too let the better player do the macro AND micro the major battles. With micro macro, the new player has to do important things by construction, but will not be overwhelmed by multitasking.
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On April 03 2015 08:32 Cascade wrote:
I think archon mode can be a useful tool to introduce new players to the game. No doubt. I'm afraid the best way to play it if there is a big skull difference is to have the better player play alone essentially, so the ranked mode may still be demoralising for noobs.
Regarding competitive play, I really don't see what this brings over 2 on 2. I'd much rather have my two favourite players each play their main race and make beautiful things together than being able to slightly better micro and macro at the same time. I think most people wouldn't see a difference from normal 1 on 1 most of the time.
I think there's two elements to this. One is to introduce an element of team communication. Being able to split up tasks efficiently at a higher level will be a challenge. Everyone knows that competitive 2vs2 in SC2 is a joke. The game is balanced around 1vs1 and it was like this in BW too. Maintaining the same 1on1 format that everyone enjoys while having the communication element makes it a lot more interesting imo.
The other thing is bigger for Blizzard probably. Lesser skilled players, myself included, often found it difficult to manage all tasks like the pros can. Sure, I can macro pretty well, but that means I'm not focused on my army as much. When I am, I tend to miss larva injects, etc. This can get very discouraging, especially when you start to lose. Having a partner to help you in this not only eases the difficulty of doing all your tasks(which is very important for newer players especially), it also introduces an element of being able to play with friends. Sure, you could play 4vs4 with your buddies on the matchmaking, but no one will say that that's a competitive mode. For someone who actively wants to get better at SC, grinding and improving on your own is a pretty lonesome experience. For lots of people, having a friend to do it with makes it a lot more enjoyable.
I think this is a step in the right direction for both the "casual" fanbase and the competitive. The fact that gameplay is easier and communication is encouraged makes it a lot more like LoL and Dota 2. Both of these are immensely popular with not just competitive players, but casual players. You can feel like you're playing well and you have your team to talk with. Yet, the gamemode doesn't sacrifice any of the complexity or depth that SC2 has. You still have the exact same game, just played slightly differently. I think if tournaments run with this, it could become the biggest thing to hit SC2 since it came out.
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If this is one magic bullet for LotV, I expect Allied Commanders to be the other. A sustainable coop experience (ala Diablo) would go a long way in growing the casual side of the fan base.
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On April 03 2015 05:58 prplhz wrote:
i'm sorry but there's a "might" missing in the OP title
don't know if anyone already mentioned this but for some reasons it's getting on my NERVES
just in case i need some on topic material, totalbiscuit very well be right on this matter
I mentioned it on page 3 but it seems nobody cares much.
On April 01 2015 14:09 TotalBiscuit wrote: This lets me enjoy high level SC2 without the countless hours required to get to that level.
Having now watched Archon mode on streams, I really do not think this will make it into 'high level play' any more than 2v2/3v3/4v4 has. I guess if it has ladders etc and has a Master league, then maybe that could be counted, though many would debate that.
Edit - It does look fun, something I'm sure I'll try with friends. I do think it could probably be quite rage inducing with all the 'why is that unit there, did you move it?' type stuff.
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Totally agree with TB, Archon mode is amazing, however I see it more like a necessary step towards improving your game, until you can ladder 1v1. I don't see Archon becoming competitive or anything, but its indeed an amazing way of gently introducing someone to the game and gradually learning stuff
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I think the best use is for a group of beginners, that'll allow them to pull off the moves they see the professionals do on stream themselves.
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Someone fix the title lol
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On April 03 2015 08:32 Cascade wrote:
I think archon mode can be a useful tool to introduce new players to the game. No doubt. I'm afraid the best way to play it if there is a big skull difference is to have the better player play alone essentially, so the ranked mode may still be demoralising for noobs.
Regarding competitive play, I really don't see what this brings over 2 on 2. I'd much rather have my two favourite players each play their main race and make beautiful things together than being able to slightly better micro and macro at the same time. I think most people wouldn't see a difference from normal 1 on 1 most of the time.
Sorry, now I am imagining two friends playing archon, one with a little head and the other with a HUGE one... real SKULL difference xDDDDDDDD
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I hope it will get more people to play, Events are starting to cut sc2 :X thats not okay!
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I'm curious. In BW Team Melee, you could see which player was controlling which units by the color of the selection thingy when you were speccing. Is this feature still available in Archon Mode? If it's going to be competitive, I think this will be one of the big things necessary so you can figure out who's doing what.
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Archon is overhyped and will never be played competitvely.
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Archon mode is amazing. I thought that too. Best for learning for new players.
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being matched with a novice player in team melee/archon mode is 100x more frustrating than teamed up with in 2v2.
i personally dont think it helps in training, biggest part of improving one's skill is being able to macro and micro at the same time, its an essential skill. like practicing build order isn't about just knowing when to build, but being able to scout, see other parts of the map while keeping track of what needs to be built without looking at the base. having to focus on one thing will bite back in an actual game.
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On April 04 2015 06:30 jinorazi wrote:
being matched with a novice player in team melee/archon mode is 100x more frustrating than teamed up with in 2v2.
i personally dont think it helps in training, biggest part of improving one's skill is being able to macro and micro at the same time, its an essential skill. like practicing build order isn't about just knowing when to build, but being able to scout, see other parts of the map while keeping track of what needs to be built without looking at the base. having to focus on one thing will bite back in an actual game.
I could see it being helpful in high level training. I could see this helping a lot of NA pro zergs in showing how effective it could be to efficiently split forces to deal with drops. Or using 2 slightly lesser (but well coordinated) players to simulate a Korean for training purposes.
I think the obviously fun thing to do would be to use it to put 2 NA pros against a top Korean.
I think it could have a competitive angle but I guess I would have to see a couple high level players (of the same race) play together to see some of the strategic potential.
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Canada11363 Posts
being matched with a novice player in team melee/archon mode is 100x more frustrating than teamed up with in 2v2.
Well, I don't really know why you would want to be matched with someone you didn't know. To me, the appeal of this sort of mode is to play with a friend in order to have a good time. I mean guess there is always solo queue like you have in mobas, but I never play LoL except with friends- I don't like solo queue. I'd much prefer to 1v1 then play with a stranger- mostly because I'd be more concerned about being the weak link. Playing with a friend takes away that stress because you have a connection outside of game performance.
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Northern Ireland25530 Posts
There's a couple of new folk in our Irish SC group who've just gotten the game. This would be handy as hell to show them how to play the game as well as have a good time.
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On April 04 2015 06:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 06:30 jinorazi wrote:
being matched with a novice player in team melee/archon mode is 100x more frustrating than teamed up with in 2v2.
i personally dont think it helps in training, biggest part of improving one's skill is being able to macro and micro at the same time, its an essential skill. like practicing build order isn't about just knowing when to build, but being able to scout, see other parts of the map while keeping track of what needs to be built without looking at the base. having to focus on one thing will bite back in an actual game. I could see it being helpful in high level training. I could see this helping a lot of NA pro zergs in showing how effective it could be to efficiently split forces to deal with drops. Or using 2 slightly lesser (but well coordinated) players to simulate a Korean for training purposes. I think the obviously fun thing to do would be to use it to put 2 NA pros against a top Korean. I think it could have a competitive angle but I guess I would have to see a couple high level players (of the same race) play together to see some of the strategic potential.
i do recall there were two commentators/hosts playing vs 1 pro back in the day, they still had no chance :/
its meant for fun, not as improvement or to play better, that was never the case for me at least.
On April 04 2015 08:59 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +being matched with a novice player in team melee/archon mode is 100x more frustrating than teamed up with in 2v2. Well, I don't really know why you would want to be matched with someone you didn't know. To me, the appeal of this sort of mode is to play with a friend in order to have a good time. I mean guess there is always solo queue like you have in mobas, but I never play LoL except with friends- I don't like solo queue. I'd much prefer to 1v1 then play with a stranger- mostly because I'd be more concerned about being the weak link. Playing with a friend takes away that stress because you have a connection outside of game performance.
i'm not as engaged like i was in bw with clans and all and i seldom play these days to keep in touch with someone when im online, friends who did play were gold at most and none plays now. requiring a known partner to play is quiet the deterrent to play this mode, which im guessing it wont be, play for fun, not to win after all. match making in this mode should help with being matched up with similar caliber though.
just pointing out, its funny/frustrating when i just ask for mass marines and builder's macro still isnt good enough with floating 1000+ minerals or a bad controller that just gets all the units killed with bad micro. many times i could have done better just playing solo rather than splitting the tasks despite the anticipation, falsely assumed, of efficiency.
just saying, splitting the tasks doesnt mean the players will actually play better. it'll be a fun mode, i enjoyed it in the past and i'm sure i will in the future, but i dont think it helps in improvement as people say. playing a regular game will help more.
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One of the biggest reasons my friends stopped playing SC2 was not because of it being too hard.
It was not because it was too complicated
It was not because it lacked micro transactions.
It was not because you had to buy the game.
It was not because of game design issues.
It was because it lacked the social aspect.
Games are consumed in a different way than they were 10+ years ago.
Today, for the vast majority of gamers, the games are mostly another way to socially interact.
In LoL, dota, CS:GO you can be quite social. You round up a bunch of friends and just have fun.
SC2 doesn't really work that way.
I do think that Archon mode fits this aspect, which is good.
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On April 04 2015 15:35 JulDraGoN wrote:
One of the biggest reasons my friends stopped playing SC2 was not because of it being too hard.
It was not because it was too complicated
It was not because it lacked micro transactions.
It was not because you had to buy the game.
It was not because of game design issues.
It was because it lacked the social aspect.
Games are consumed in a different way than they were 10+ years ago.
Today, for the vast majority of gamers, the games are mostly another way to socially interact.
In LoL, dota, CS:GO you can be quite social. You round up a bunch of friends and just have fun.
SC2 doesn't really work that way.
I do think that Archon mode fits this aspect, which is good.
But...
It has Facebook integration! That is SOCIAL media! SURELY sc2 is a social game!
But to be serious, I think this is a good point. On that note, urns. It'd be com if they would allow any number of players in archon. No reason not to, as there will not be more units. I can see groups of 5 beginners playing together, specialising in their own things, one doing inject only, one doing creep spread, one muta micro, etc.
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Quite a serious suggestion: Transition the SC2 competitive scene to archon mode, WCS 2016 is archon mode. Meta will adapt as macro reaches perfection and micro intensifies. Blizzard wants a magic bullet? It needs the force of a bullet.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Literally no one ever played team melee in BW which was exactly the same thing as the advertised archon mode. Serious doubts.
Allied commanders sounds interesting though, there's a lack of things to do for players who want a less taxing experience than ladder grind.
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On April 05 2015 23:43 BluzMan wrote:
Literally no one ever played team melee in BW which was exactly the same thing as the advertised archon mode. Serious doubts.
Allied commanders sounds interesting though, there's a lack of things to do for players who want a less taxing experience than ladder grind.
custom games were big in bw but non-existent in sc2...
as stated, matchmaking makes a huge difference.
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On April 05 2015 23:43 BluzMan wrote:
Literally no one ever played team melee in BW which was exactly the same thing as the advertised archon mode. Serious doubts.
Allied commanders sounds interesting though, there's a lack of things to do for players who want a less taxing experience than ladder grind.
The mode will be fun for some time and maybe help attract new players that may find the mechanical requirements too heavy, but I don't see it going very further. RTS as a genre is 1v1, a battle of two minds and two wills, not teamwork.
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I have tried the custom but it is so very confusing
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On April 05 2015 23:52 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 23:43 BluzMan wrote:
Literally no one ever played team melee in BW which was exactly the same thing as the advertised archon mode. Serious doubts.
Allied commanders sounds interesting though, there's a lack of things to do for players who want a less taxing experience than ladder grind. custom games were big in bw but non-existent in sc2... as stated, matchmaking makes a huge difference.
Well, there was no matchmaking in BW at all, so every game mode was equal and team melee pretty decisively lost the natural selection. Archon mode is hardly possible to play with strangers because of all the competition for control, so automated pairing is out of the picture, only premades. That immediately leaves us with only a small portion of players who already have someone to play with. I just can't see this going massive. Might have some uses for coaching, but I don't understand why they're advertising this as a major feature.
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David Kim confirms they were thinking about making Archon Mode professionally competitive (@ WCS).
Hope they have a debut match planned. It will only work if the players get to practice working together. I think semi-retired pros make the most sense (as they would have the time to spend focusing on Archon mode).
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Yea I think archon mode which is essentially micro / macro (I believe in BW) is really really amazing for teaching newer players, basically I would macro and let them control the units, to give them a better idea of what to do and when to do it. Thanks! Magic bullet confirmed.
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Was very interesting to hear that they used it as a testing tool first, and then realized it was a lot of fun lmao
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Katowice25012 Posts
On April 05 2015 23:43 BluzMan wrote:
Literally no one ever played team melee in BW which was exactly the same thing as the advertised archon mode. Serious doubts.
Allied commanders sounds interesting though, there's a lack of things to do for players who want a less taxing experience than ladder grind.
We played a ton of it in our community here, it was on every TL Attack and I have very fond memories of long sessions of it with people from irc.
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On April 06 2015 03:25 Heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 23:43 BluzMan wrote:
Literally no one ever played team melee in BW which was exactly the same thing as the advertised archon mode. Serious doubts.
Allied commanders sounds interesting though, there's a lack of things to do for players who want a less taxing experience than ladder grind. We played a ton of it in our community here, it was on every TL Attack and I have very fond memories of long sessions of it with people from irc.
I played it a lot, as well. More importantly, it has an actual matchmaking mode in LotV.
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your Country52797 Posts
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On April 04 2015 15:35 JulDraGoN wrote:
One of the biggest reasons my friends stopped playing SC2 was not because of it being too hard.
It was not because it was too complicated
It was not because it lacked micro transactions.
It was not because you had to buy the game.
It was not because of game design issues.
It was because it lacked the social aspect.
Games are consumed in a different way than they were 10+ years ago.
Today, for the vast majority of gamers, the games are mostly another way to socially interact.
In LoL, dota, CS:GO you can be quite social. You round up a bunch of friends and just have fun.
SC2 doesn't really work that way.
I do think that Archon mode fits this aspect, which is good.
Actually more and more want to play games on their own even on pc and want to avoid talking as much as possible, to avoid flame kiddies. Thats why people enjoy games that limit social interaction lately. The lack of social interaction was just the easiest excuse to not play sc2.
Sc2 never lacked the social aspect. It was just that 1v1 was appraised as the thing to play. And everyone was to lazy to search for the fun things. CS, Dota nothing comes close to the stuff you can do in Sc2 with friends.
But yes gaming has changed a little. People got extremely lazy. They just want to go with 1 button into the game. There was Archon mode since WoL. But now its 1 button !
So Blizzard should just hand pick custom games for 1-4 players and then depending on your group size do some matchmaking and give you a random 4 v 4 custom game if you happen to be 4 players. Have a weekly rotation of maps, so basically steal from Heroes.
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On April 06 2015 04:44 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 15:35 JulDraGoN wrote:
One of the biggest reasons my friends stopped playing SC2 was not because of it being too hard.
It was not because it was too complicated
It was not because it lacked micro transactions.
It was not because you had to buy the game.
It was not because of game design issues.
It was because it lacked the social aspect.
Games are consumed in a different way than they were 10+ years ago.
Today, for the vast majority of gamers, the games are mostly another way to socially interact.
In LoL, dota, CS:GO you can be quite social. You round up a bunch of friends and just have fun.
SC2 doesn't really work that way.
I do think that Archon mode fits this aspect, which is good. Actually more and more want to play games on their own even on pc and want to avoid talking as much as possible, to avoid flame kiddies. Thats why people enjoy games that limit social interaction lately. The lack of social interaction was just the easiest excuse to not play sc2. Sc2 never lacked the social aspect. It was just that 1v1 was appraised as the thing to play. And everyone was to lazy to search for the fun things. CS, Dota nothing comes close to the stuff you can do in Sc2 with friends. But yes gaming has changed a little. People got extremely lazy. They just want to go with 1 button into the game. There was Archon mode since WoL. But now its 1 button ! So Blizzard should just hand pick custom games for 1-4 players and then depending on your group size do some matchmaking and give you a random 4 v 4 custom game if you happen to be 4 players. Have a weekly rotation of maps, so basically steal from Heroes.
What? So that's why the three most popular games right now are all team games, I see.
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On April 04 2015 15:35 JulDraGoN wrote:
One of the biggest reasons my friends stopped playing SC2 was not because of it being too hard.
It was not because it was too complicated
It was not because it lacked micro transactions.
It was not because you had to buy the game.
It was not because of game design issues.
It was because it lacked the social aspect.
Games are consumed in a different way than they were 10+ years ago.
Today, for the vast majority of gamers, the games are mostly another way to socially interact.
In LoL, dota, CS:GO you can be quite social. You round up a bunch of friends and just have fun.
SC2 doesn't really work that way.
I do think that Archon mode fits this aspect, which is good.
Actually, I quite agree. The best time I had in SC2 ever is when a bunch of people including my friend joined a king of the hill match, that was so fun, so much more than the usual ladder. The reason I stopped playing SC2 was because that said friend also stopped and I couldn't bring myself to play more than once a few weeks.
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The more I think about it the more I want six player 2v2 archon mode.
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On April 04 2015 15:35 JulDraGoN wrote:
One of the biggest reasons my friends stopped playing SC2 was not because of it being too hard.
It was not because it was too complicated
It was not because it lacked micro transactions.
It was not because you had to buy the game.
It was not because of game design issues.
It was because it lacked the social aspect.
Games are consumed in a different way than they were 10+ years ago.
Today, for the vast majority of gamers, the games are mostly another way to socially interact.
In LoL, dota, CS:GO you can be quite social. You round up a bunch of friends and just have fun.
SC2 doesn't really work that way.
I do think that Archon mode fits this aspect, which is good.
I agree, I have a group of friends that played LoL very frequently, they play together, they talk about the game, etc.
And they suck, they do try to get better, but they still suck, so you can see they altough they really like the game, its pretty obvious thats not everything there is to that, being able to get in skype with somefriends to play some games is really good and probably the biggest factor.
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On April 06 2015 06:56 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 15:35 JulDraGoN wrote:
One of the biggest reasons my friends stopped playing SC2 was not because of it being too hard.
It was not because it was too complicated
It was not because it lacked micro transactions.
It was not because you had to buy the game.
It was not because of game design issues.
It was because it lacked the social aspect.
Games are consumed in a different way than they were 10+ years ago.
Today, for the vast majority of gamers, the games are mostly another way to socially interact.
In LoL, dota, CS:GO you can be quite social. You round up a bunch of friends and just have fun.
SC2 doesn't really work that way.
I do think that Archon mode fits this aspect, which is good. I agree, I have a group of friends that played LoL very frequently, they play together, they talk about the game, etc. And they suck, they do try to get better, but they still suck, so you can see they altough they really like the game, its pretty obvious thats not everything there is to that, being able to get in skype with somefriends to play some games is really good and probably the biggest factor. Replace "LoL" with "SC2" in your post and I don't see how it becomes unrealistic.
Or when JulDraGoN says:Today, for the vast majority of gamers, the games are mostly another way to socially interact.
In LoL, dota, CS:GO you can be quite social. You round up a bunch of friends and just have fun.
SC2 doesn't really work that way. Why doesn't it work that way? In SC:BW we were like kids at a playground just making up anything we wanted to do. My group of friends saw low money 1v1's as the real way to play the game, so we'd play 1v1's and everyone else would obs, or we'd set up team battles and have drafts, or we'd do a little king of the hill or a round robin or whatever. We'd go to other groups of friends' channels and challenge their best players. It was just making up whatever we wanted and we needed nothing more than a way to create a private game and a chat channel, both of which SC2 obviously has, as well as way more. I think if people wanted to be playing SC2 socially, they'd be doing it. The tools are there. The whole time the StarCraft community was freaking out about the social features in SC2, Riot was laughing their asses off becoming popular with the shittiest client ever.
I think a much easier observation to accept is that successful multiplayer games have flourishing social scenes sprout up around them. So when you see a popular game with a strong social scene, it's weird to think that the social scene caused the popularity. I can't imagine the social scene being anything but a product of other factors, not a cause itself. I can see how it eventually is a part of a mutually beneficial relationship, but not how it gets a game off the ground.
What I'm interested in is what group of friends actually really enjoyed SC2 and preferred to play SC2 and then went to another game because of some social aspect of it. What exactly did the other game provide that SC2 didn't that was worth playing a worse game?
I suspect that people actually preferred to play other games. And their friends preferred to play other games. And groups of friends just migrated to other games. People who preferred SC2 the whole time got sucked into another game cuz they'd rather play with friends than play SC2 alone or make new friends. If that's the case, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with SC2 socially except that it's not super popular. There's no way to provide better infrastructure socially to make the game more popular when the reason it's not popular is because it's actually not popular. There's no social feature that groups of friends are waiting on from Blizzard so that they can all go back to playing SC2 like they wanted to all along.
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To be honest, many people that complain about the social aspect of the game don't realize that it's right in front of them.
That chat channel Nony talked about? For me, it's BonjwaDE. [Or TeamLiquid sometimes]
I go there, challenge people to 1v1, coach some people on their replays, sometimes we get some other dudes in and play vs them. We even had Bunny once in there and challenge the whole channel(needless to say we all got rekt) and it was streamed for fun.
Everytime I read "SC2 is not social enough, thats why I don't play" I don't really believe that. While I agree the social features can be improved( do there really need to be 10 different general chats for example? or why does the chat channel cleanse after being IG etc?), they're not preventing you from being social.
It's out there, and if you don't have a community suitable for you(BonjwaDE is german as in the title), create one. Though there is the TL group as well.
But, as Nony said, it's probably more the game than the actual social features.
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On April 01 2015 15:54 opisska wrote:
I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago.
lol yeah seriously.. team mele was hella fun
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On April 07 2015 10:00 KeksX wrote:
To be honest, many people that complain about the social aspect of the game don't realize that it's right in front of them.
That chat channel Nony talked about? For me, it's BonjwaDE. [Or TeamLiquid sometimes]
I go there, challenge people to 1v1, coach some people on their replays, sometimes we get some other dudes in and play vs them. We even had Bunny once in there and challenge the whole channel(needless to say we all got rekt) and it was streamed for fun.
Everytime I read "SC2 is not social enough, thats why I don't play" I don't really believe that. While I agree the social features can be improved( do there really need to be 10 different general chats for example? or why does the chat channel cleanse after being IG etc?), they're not preventing you from being social.
It's out there, and if you don't have a community suitable for you(BonjwaDE is german as in the title), create one. Though there is the TL group as well.
But, as Nony said, it's probably more the game than the actual social features.
A big problem was no chat channels at release. That was a staple of Broodwar which helped make the game a huge event. We'd king of the hill, we'd float CCs to watch watch, we'd 3v3 top vs bottom in map, but it was always social. We played it on Kali in Maven's Haven and it was as much chatting as playing.
No chat channels at release really hurt the game in a way that it probably didn't recover from in some ways. Never the less, the excitement around the game with the early GSLs and MLGs was out of this world...
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On April 04 2015 15:35 JulDraGoN wrote:
One of the biggest reasons my friends stopped playing SC2 was not because of it being too hard.
It was not because it was too complicated
It was not because it lacked micro transactions.
It was not because you had to buy the game.
It was not because of game design issues.
It was because it lacked the social aspect.
Games are consumed in a different way than they were 10+ years ago.
Today, for the vast majority of gamers, the games are mostly another way to socially interact.
In LoL, dota, CS:GO you can be quite social. You round up a bunch of friends and just have fun.
SC2 doesn't really work that way.
I do think that Archon mode fits this aspect, which is good.
Yeah good point. But by design SC is a 1v1 game with a 2v2+ mode as an extra feature so it doesnt get the natural 2+ player benefits. its real time 1 on 1 chess
also blizzard made the sc2 menus seem like a black void on launch which didn't help (is that why they named it lotv??? )
that being said I've got 3 friends hooked on sc2 in the last six months so theres still hope!
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On April 06 2015 08:17 NonY wrote:
I suspect that people actually preferred to play other games. And their friends preferred to play other games. And groups of friends just migrated to other games. People who preferred SC2 the whole time got sucked into another game cuz they'd rather play with friends than play SC2 alone or make new friends. If that's the case, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with SC2 socially except that it's not super popular. There's no way to provide better infrastructure socially to make the game more popular when the reason it's not popular is because it's actually not popular. There's no social feature that groups of friends are waiting on from Blizzard so that they can all go back to playing SC2 like they wanted to all along.
This is so spot on...
I stopped playing Broodwar regularly when I'd log on to bnet and Soso, Cross, Hurkyl, Aquanda, Fenix, and Khalsa et all were not on...well if they weren't on I'd play with Jim, Giggles, Bongo or I'd log over to Kali and play with the Maven's Haven clan...but gradually people started not being around (okay not gradually mostly because of EVERQUEST!)
Then War3 came out...I remember playing 2v2s with Pillars, Grrr, and Dudey the first week...suddenly people were back and around (even if all three were living in Korea at the time) and we were playing again, but when my regular 2v2 partner (Hurkyl) stopped playing due to grad school and the other social friends stopped showing up...I stopped playing regularly. Its funny...I loved the game but without the people to play you just don't play.
From my perspective there are a lot of people who get a new game and enjoy it for 3 months to a year.
After that there are hardline genre players that go in popularity from MMOs, to MOBAs, to FPS, to Strategy and StarCraft is only a subset of Strategy. Most people simply aren't going to stick around forever but will enjoy the new hot thing for awhile or will play what their close friends are playing.
Yeah, Broodwar had a social scene that was beyond just gaming. I remember having dinner with Khalsa (nobody remembers him but he happened to be involved in sending 4 "foreigners" over to Korea in Broodwar) in New York after a "pro circuit broodwar tournament", having ilnp/Dudey's dad help me on my home mortgage to buy my house, etc etc etc
Now though...the people I play with are people I know IRL or have played with since 1998...something about StarCraft 2 not having a good social channel set up and having way more focused popularity (Uhm team liquid would have like 5 channels when they finally added channels) really caused the social aspect to fail and honestly I'll log over to Heroes because I have 3 RL friends playing there, I'll play Diablo with the wife because that's what she likes...its about the social aspects and spending time with your friends. BW connected a generation that hadn't been connected...but now everybody is on the internet and its different.
Sorry for the long meaningless post
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Archon Mode was already in broodwar if I remember right?
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The tournament I really want to see: Proleague stars (playing solo) Vs NA players paired up in archon mode. Solo players don't have to share their winnings, archons do. Get fun casters, see who turns up, I'm sure it would be a blast.
It might turn out that an archon of low NA masters can go blow for blow with the best Koreans playing solo, once they get the hang of how to effectively work together. If so, that's a whole new universe of very competitive, fun, high-level matches.
Anyway, if Archon Mode doesn't catch on, you know what we'll try next: PENTACHON! Apparently, that's what all the kids want to watch these days.
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On April 07 2015 11:17 j4vz wrote:
Archon Mode was already in broodwar if I remember right?
Brood War had team melee which could be the same or completely different
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On April 07 2015 11:43 lump1 wrote:
The tournament I really want to see: Proleague stars (playing solo) Vs NA players paired up in archon mode. Solo players don't have to share their winnings, archons do. Get fun casters, see who turns up, I'm sure it would be a blast.
It might turn out that an archon of low NA masters can go blow for blow with the best Koreans playing solo, once they get the hang of how to effectively work together. If so, that's a whole new universe of very competitive, fun, high-level matches.
Anyway, if Archon Mode doesn't catch on, you know what we'll try next: PENTACHON! Apparently, that's what all the kids want to watch these days.
Ever since the LotV Fan Alpha came out we have been hosting viewer vs pro archon mode games on stream. It's a lot of fun but even with teams of grandmasters we have very rarely gotten viewer victories vs the pros (Although some of the most exciting games have been when the viewers do win!)
If you want to check out some of the games we have the VODs on our Youtube Channel
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On April 07 2015 14:44 Bacon_Infinity wrote:Ever since the LotV Fan Alpha came out we have been hosting viewer vs pro archon mode games on stream. It's a lot of fun but even with teams of grandmasters we have very rarely gotten viewer victories vs the pros (Although some of the most exciting games have been when the viewers do win!) If you want to check out some of the games we have the VODs on our Youtube Channel
Very interesting! Thank you for the links, and for doing what you do. I have a feeling the grandmaster Archons will improve with time and practice and start beating the pros. Also, I suspect that this will introduce new race imbalances for David Kim to worry about - as in: I can imagine Protoss benefits less from teamwork than Zerg, making Archon Zerg OP. As long as it's all for shits and giggles, that's not a big deal, but if we're to have Archon tournaments for real stakes, these balance issues will become dealbreakers. To fix this LotV should make sure that all the races have units that benefit equally from babysitting by a dedicated microer.
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On April 07 2015 14:44 Bacon_Infinity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 11:43 lump1 wrote:
The tournament I really want to see: Proleague stars (playing solo) Vs NA players paired up in archon mode. Solo players don't have to share their winnings, archons do. Get fun casters, see who turns up, I'm sure it would be a blast.
It might turn out that an archon of low NA masters can go blow for blow with the best Koreans playing solo, once they get the hang of how to effectively work together. If so, that's a whole new universe of very competitive, fun, high-level matches.
Anyway, if Archon Mode doesn't catch on, you know what we'll try next: PENTACHON! Apparently, that's what all the kids want to watch these days. Ever since the LotV Fan Alpha came out we have been hosting viewer vs pro archon mode games on stream. It's a lot of fun but even with teams of grandmasters we have very rarely gotten viewer victories vs the pros (Although some of the most exciting games have been when the viewers do win!) If you want to check out some of the games we have the VODs on our Youtube Channel
Any specific games you would recommend?
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On April 08 2015 00:09 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 14:44 Bacon_Infinity wrote:On April 07 2015 11:43 lump1 wrote:
The tournament I really want to see: Proleague stars (playing solo) Vs NA players paired up in archon mode. Solo players don't have to share their winnings, archons do. Get fun casters, see who turns up, I'm sure it would be a blast.
It might turn out that an archon of low NA masters can go blow for blow with the best Koreans playing solo, once they get the hang of how to effectively work together. If so, that's a whole new universe of very competitive, fun, high-level matches.
Anyway, if Archon Mode doesn't catch on, you know what we'll try next: PENTACHON! Apparently, that's what all the kids want to watch these days. Ever since the LotV Fan Alpha came out we have been hosting viewer vs pro archon mode games on stream. It's a lot of fun but even with teams of grandmasters we have very rarely gotten viewer victories vs the pros (Although some of the most exciting games have been when the viewers do win!) If you want to check out some of the games we have the VODs on our Youtube Channel Any specific games you would recommend?
The first one with The_Templar and SetGuitars was pretty funny. That 10 min ling speed OP lol .
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I'd love to see Archon mode have its own rankedmatchmaking, I mean if 4v4 has it, why shouldnt Archon mode? I think it'd be quite successful!
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On April 08 2015 06:25 SnowfaLL wrote:
I'd love to see Archon mode have its own rankedmatchmaking, I mean if 4v4 has it, why shouldnt Archon mode? I think it'd be quite successful!
I think that's the main point of archon mode. You could always play stuff like this in the arcade. Now with the matchmaking available hopefully more people will find a fun way to play with matchmaking vs sitting around in a lobby never knowing who you will get.
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I think a much easier observation to accept is that successful multiplayer games have flourishing social scenes sprout up around them. So when you see a popular game with a strong social scene, it's weird to think that the social scene caused the popularity. I can't imagine the social scene being anything but a product of other factors, not a cause itself. I can see how it eventually is a part of a mutually beneficial relationship, but not how it gets a game off the ground.
I agree with this. I think all of the "social is the solution"-advocats are confusing correlation with causation.
In fact, I played LOL for the last 6 months (700 games or so) and I made zero friends and only had shitty soloq teampartners. Could I have made friends if I really wanted too??? Sure, exact same thing can be said about Sc2.
But in the end, LOL is just a much more accessible game and is much more foccused on "micro" interactioans than in Sc2 where you - tbh - have to do alot of stupid stuff.
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On April 08 2015 00:09 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 14:44 Bacon_Infinity wrote:On April 07 2015 11:43 lump1 wrote:
The tournament I really want to see: Proleague stars (playing solo) Vs NA players paired up in archon mode. Solo players don't have to share their winnings, archons do. Get fun casters, see who turns up, I'm sure it would be a blast.
It might turn out that an archon of low NA masters can go blow for blow with the best Koreans playing solo, once they get the hang of how to effectively work together. If so, that's a whole new universe of very competitive, fun, high-level matches.
Anyway, if Archon Mode doesn't catch on, you know what we'll try next: PENTACHON! Apparently, that's what all the kids want to watch these days. Ever since the LotV Fan Alpha came out we have been hosting viewer vs pro archon mode games on stream. It's a lot of fun but even with teams of grandmasters we have very rarely gotten viewer victories vs the pros (Although some of the most exciting games have been when the viewers do win!) If you want to check out some of the games we have the VODs on our Youtube Channel Any specific games you would recommend?
Some of the best games happened in the episodes with Hydra, MC, CranK and Kane but there are great moments in every episode
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On April 01 2015 15:44 peanuts wrote:
Archon mode is going to be brilliant. Before, you could always use shared control of units to help someone out in 2v2s, but it still put massive pressure on them. With Archon, you can give them one or two tasks to focus on each game. It's very much like in Dota when you do a tri lane with friends. Focus on last hits, denies, warding, etc. etc. This really lets you keep an eye on your pal but also forces them to work.
Super excited to introduce friends to the game with this. Paired with it being standalone, I think it'll cause a massive spike in player numbers.
exactly, couldnt have said it better
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On April 01 2015 18:25 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2015 16:11 opisska wrote:On April 01 2015 16:08 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 01 2015 15:54 opisska wrote:
I still can't quite grasp how this is now introduced as the greatest invention of all times when the same feature was available in BW 15 years ago. It's a fun mode, and bringing it out to be supported by the official matchmaking service is pretty nice. Any cool mode like this that can be brought out of the mediocre Arcade interface and exposed next to the other modes with matchmaking will get nice attention. A lot of other fun modes buried in the Arcade, like Peep Mode Maps, would probably get good attention if Blizzard gave them similar official support. I am not arguing otherwise and I AM looking forward to playing it. Only I would expect that people would give Blizzard some shit for not having it released already in WoL. But the list of such obvious features that are still missing is probably too long for that SC2 has some features that BW didn't have and missing some features that BW had so it's not like it's a crime for them to not have all of the features. It's good they are adding more and more features.
It's not a crime.
It's just being Steve Jobs, taking away features so that they can be "released" or " introduced" later
ie - a hole
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And to think the idea came from the arcade.
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This sounds good!
Also, add a Zealot Hockey Ladder!!! (just kidding) ^^
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On April 08 2015 20:30 Disengaged wrote:
And to think the idea came from the arcade.
It's been around since Brood War.
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Naniwa is hilarious when playing Archon mode.
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EPT
