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On April 03 2015 02:35 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 00:58 StarStruck wrote:So basically this is what we knew as team melee in BW. or instead of being able to share control or resources with one another and having teams so you can focus on one race and army. we get this? this should have been in the game from day one. technically it was just two armies for the price of one. On April 03 2015 00:25 avilo wrote:"Archon Mode" was formerly known as "Team Melee" in SC1 (it was an official game mode, like melee was). It's amazing that blizzard is promoting this mode with the matchmaking as well, props to whoever at blizz decided to highlight this mode  I have a hard time giving props when such things date back to games like vanilla BW. It was fun back then, although very few people played the game setting back then unless it was a private game with friends. Matchmaking with it was imperative. If I were Blizzard I would go back to trying to reinvent the wheel. They don't really have any fresh ideas and that's why we're seeing old ideas come back to the forefront. Everything from units to game settings. I think it's very unfair to compare the implementation of Team Melee in BW to archon mode in SC2... Just because the expected standards of including a game mode in a like Sc2 are just soooooo much higher than they were back then. I'm sure they have a lot of ideas for things they'd like to include that just require too much work to easily put in without it being a hackjob (team melee replays can not be viewed in SC1, do you think that would fly in SC2, for example?).
There weren't any expectations for BW though. It's as Blizzard put it.. a complete fluke. There were many more modes in BW. However their popularity was limited due to the great UMS community who came up with things similar. Well aware you couldn't watch those replays back then. It makes perfect sense though for that mode to continue on and the whole replay thing attached to it is just logical.
You can say there was no time to implement everything. Look what they did with B.Net just to push the game out. We're used to delays but come on they knew it wasn't ready. This is just something that makes sense. Heck we might have played team melee rarely but that doesn't mean we didn't play it and had fun with it. We had a lot of other things to help coach players back then. I still think it would have been wild without replays. It changed the landscape so much when that came around.
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I absolutely HATED this in BW. It wasn't fun and just made the game feel awful. I'll obviously give it another shot in SC2 but I doubt it'll 'save esports'.
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i'm sorry but there's a "might" missing in the OP title
don't know if anyone already mentioned this but for some reasons it's getting on my NERVES
just in case i need some on topic material, totalbiscuit very well be right on this matter
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I think archon mode can be a useful tool to introduce new players to the game. No doubt. I'm afraid the best way to play it if there is a big skull difference is to have the better player play alone essentially, so the ranked mode may still be demoralising for noobs.
Regarding competitive play, I really don't see what this brings over 2 on 2. I'd much rather have my two favourite players each play their main race and make beautiful things together than being able to slightly better micro and macro at the same time. I think most people wouldn't see a difference from normal 1 on 1 most of the time.
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Actually, micro macro is better for new players, as the best way to play isn't too let the better player do the macro AND micro the major battles. With micro macro, the new player has to do important things by construction, but will not be overwhelmed by multitasking.
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On April 03 2015 08:32 Cascade wrote:
I think archon mode can be a useful tool to introduce new players to the game. No doubt. I'm afraid the best way to play it if there is a big skull difference is to have the better player play alone essentially, so the ranked mode may still be demoralising for noobs.
Regarding competitive play, I really don't see what this brings over 2 on 2. I'd much rather have my two favourite players each play their main race and make beautiful things together than being able to slightly better micro and macro at the same time. I think most people wouldn't see a difference from normal 1 on 1 most of the time.
I think there's two elements to this. One is to introduce an element of team communication. Being able to split up tasks efficiently at a higher level will be a challenge. Everyone knows that competitive 2vs2 in SC2 is a joke. The game is balanced around 1vs1 and it was like this in BW too. Maintaining the same 1on1 format that everyone enjoys while having the communication element makes it a lot more interesting imo.
The other thing is bigger for Blizzard probably. Lesser skilled players, myself included, often found it difficult to manage all tasks like the pros can. Sure, I can macro pretty well, but that means I'm not focused on my army as much. When I am, I tend to miss larva injects, etc. This can get very discouraging, especially when you start to lose. Having a partner to help you in this not only eases the difficulty of doing all your tasks(which is very important for newer players especially), it also introduces an element of being able to play with friends. Sure, you could play 4vs4 with your buddies on the matchmaking, but no one will say that that's a competitive mode. For someone who actively wants to get better at SC, grinding and improving on your own is a pretty lonesome experience. For lots of people, having a friend to do it with makes it a lot more enjoyable.
I think this is a step in the right direction for both the "casual" fanbase and the competitive. The fact that gameplay is easier and communication is encouraged makes it a lot more like LoL and Dota 2. Both of these are immensely popular with not just competitive players, but casual players. You can feel like you're playing well and you have your team to talk with. Yet, the gamemode doesn't sacrifice any of the complexity or depth that SC2 has. You still have the exact same game, just played slightly differently. I think if tournaments run with this, it could become the biggest thing to hit SC2 since it came out.
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If this is one magic bullet for LotV, I expect Allied Commanders to be the other. A sustainable coop experience (ala Diablo) would go a long way in growing the casual side of the fan base.
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On April 03 2015 05:58 prplhz wrote:
i'm sorry but there's a "might" missing in the OP title
don't know if anyone already mentioned this but for some reasons it's getting on my NERVES
just in case i need some on topic material, totalbiscuit very well be right on this matter
I mentioned it on page 3 but it seems nobody cares much.
On April 01 2015 14:09 TotalBiscuit wrote: This lets me enjoy high level SC2 without the countless hours required to get to that level.
Having now watched Archon mode on streams, I really do not think this will make it into 'high level play' any more than 2v2/3v3/4v4 has. I guess if it has ladders etc and has a Master league, then maybe that could be counted, though many would debate that.
Edit - It does look fun, something I'm sure I'll try with friends. I do think it could probably be quite rage inducing with all the 'why is that unit there, did you move it?' type stuff.
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Totally agree with TB, Archon mode is amazing, however I see it more like a necessary step towards improving your game, until you can ladder 1v1. I don't see Archon becoming competitive or anything, but its indeed an amazing way of gently introducing someone to the game and gradually learning stuff
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I think the best use is for a group of beginners, that'll allow them to pull off the moves they see the professionals do on stream themselves.
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Someone fix the title lol
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On April 03 2015 08:32 Cascade wrote:
I think archon mode can be a useful tool to introduce new players to the game. No doubt. I'm afraid the best way to play it if there is a big skull difference is to have the better player play alone essentially, so the ranked mode may still be demoralising for noobs.
Regarding competitive play, I really don't see what this brings over 2 on 2. I'd much rather have my two favourite players each play their main race and make beautiful things together than being able to slightly better micro and macro at the same time. I think most people wouldn't see a difference from normal 1 on 1 most of the time.
Sorry, now I am imagining two friends playing archon, one with a little head and the other with a HUGE one... real SKULL difference xDDDDDDDD
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I hope it will get more people to play, Events are starting to cut sc2 :X thats not okay!
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I'm curious. In BW Team Melee, you could see which player was controlling which units by the color of the selection thingy when you were speccing. Is this feature still available in Archon Mode? If it's going to be competitive, I think this will be one of the big things necessary so you can figure out who's doing what.
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Archon is overhyped and will never be played competitvely.
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Archon mode is amazing. I thought that too. Best for learning for new players.
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being matched with a novice player in team melee/archon mode is 100x more frustrating than teamed up with in 2v2.
i personally dont think it helps in training, biggest part of improving one's skill is being able to macro and micro at the same time, its an essential skill. like practicing build order isn't about just knowing when to build, but being able to scout, see other parts of the map while keeping track of what needs to be built without looking at the base. having to focus on one thing will bite back in an actual game.
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On April 04 2015 06:30 jinorazi wrote:
being matched with a novice player in team melee/archon mode is 100x more frustrating than teamed up with in 2v2.
i personally dont think it helps in training, biggest part of improving one's skill is being able to macro and micro at the same time, its an essential skill. like practicing build order isn't about just knowing when to build, but being able to scout, see other parts of the map while keeping track of what needs to be built without looking at the base. having to focus on one thing will bite back in an actual game.
I could see it being helpful in high level training. I could see this helping a lot of NA pro zergs in showing how effective it could be to efficiently split forces to deal with drops. Or using 2 slightly lesser (but well coordinated) players to simulate a Korean for training purposes.
I think the obviously fun thing to do would be to use it to put 2 NA pros against a top Korean.
I think it could have a competitive angle but I guess I would have to see a couple high level players (of the same race) play together to see some of the strategic potential.
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Canada11607 Posts
being matched with a novice player in team melee/archon mode is 100x more frustrating than teamed up with in 2v2.
Well, I don't really know why you would want to be matched with someone you didn't know. To me, the appeal of this sort of mode is to play with a friend in order to have a good time. I mean guess there is always solo queue like you have in mobas, but I never play LoL except with friends- I don't like solo queue. I'd much prefer to 1v1 then play with a stranger- mostly because I'd be more concerned about being the weak link. Playing with a friend takes away that stress because you have a connection outside of game performance.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
There's a couple of new folk in our Irish SC group who've just gotten the game. This would be handy as hell to show them how to play the game as well as have a good time.
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EPT
