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On April 03 2015 01:40 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah, but outside of this interaction the pick-up range seems broken. Kinda like medivacs with speed boost, where at first everyone will consider it ridiculous and then get used to it and marvel at Parting's awesome immortal harassment. But really, it will be not fun, because you can't stop it unless you build a viking. Yeh true, but I went from thinking "this is the dumbest thing ever" to "maybe this would work better if it was included along with the Warp Prism speed upgrade.
This is still the dumbest thing ever except cyclones. Including it with warp prism speed would maybe make a little sense, but I'm pretty adamant this is a bad idea that makes the warp prism something you just can't punish without air units, which is bad design.
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I am surely not jealous of the Blizzard Balance team. Their job must be hell, beta out for 2 days and everybody is already throwing out suggestions, how the game could get sooo much better.
From watching streams I am quite happy how things seem to be going. I stopped HotS basically a year ago because I found the gameplay stale and boring ( I play P and well, fuck Colossus and sentries, I used to play Broodwar--> I don't like that kind of lazy unit design). In my opinion a big shakeup was overdue.
From watching a bit of play, I have to say I really like the economy change so far, speeds up things a bit, encourages more little fights in midgame, because players tend to be more spread out on the map.
The combination of disruptor and prism looks a bit like shuttle+reaver. You will not do to much at once against a good opponent, becuase he will spread to minimze damage, but you can rescue the disruptor with the prism and try again at another location or a bit later at the same one. It encourages microing on both sides, attacker and defender, I like that. If you manage to get a good hit off, it seems to be very satisfying and devastating if you suffer one. Seems much more fun than Colossus+ a-move.
Adept seems to be like the HotS reaper, an early scouting tool, perhaps get a probe, but atleast get a bit of scouting info.
Perhaps even carriers can get useful again, but that is just a wild dream of me, I guess. But having stargate play as viable option over the course of a game would be awesome.
Cyclone looks a bit over the top right now, it just beats everything. I don't have a problem with the unit per se, but it would be nice if you would have to micromanage the lock on ability, auto lock on seems kinda boring. Combined with the tank drops, a revival of mech strategies seems to be possible.
Same with the "mortar" thing of the ravager, it would be nice if you would have to micromanage it. Overall I like the Zerg changes so far, it makes midgame of Zerg stronger and staying on roaches+hydras for longer time (because of lurker and ravager) more viable, perhaps you won't be forced to either go ling+bane+muta or T3. More options is a good thing and perhaps we'll even see a comeback of crackling+ultra because they are both better now.
Overall I think they want to get away from the hardcounters a bit (I just looove that). Ultras+lings stronger, immortal+colossus weaker, mech pushed. Just from watching streams a bit, it looks like units that tend to hardcounter shit were made weaker (immortal, colossus, marauder) while stuff we didn't see so much in HotS was pushed (T mech, Z midgame options, P non deathball play). Just my 2 cents without first hand experience, but I am definately interested in Starcraft 2 again.
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On April 03 2015 01:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 01:40 Hider wrote:Yeah, but outside of this interaction the pick-up range seems broken. Kinda like medivacs with speed boost, where at first everyone will consider it ridiculous and then get used to it and marvel at Parting's awesome immortal harassment. But really, it will be not fun, because you can't stop it unless you build a viking. Yeh true, but I went from thinking "this is the dumbest thing ever" to "maybe this would work better if it was included along with the Warp Prism speed upgrade. This is still the dumbest thing ever except cyclones. Including it with warp prism speed would maybe make a little sense, but I'm pretty adamant this is a bad idea that makes the warp prism something you just can't punish without air units, which is bad design.
Got me thinking. Why not make a top 5 ranking over dumest missteps ever (with extra weights to stuff that was in the game for way too long).
This is my personal top 5:
(1) Swarm Hosts --> Should never have gone from beta to release.
(2) Warhound --> The fact that this ever was part of internal testings for more than 10 minutes is a big failure.
(3) WOL infestors --> 2 years with this awfull ability, and especially during the last year it became very obvious that a change was needed.
(4) Cyclone --> I wonder who came up with that 14/15 max range idea?
(5) LOTV Swarm Hosts --> Okay I admit this one is not nearly as bad as the ones above, but this new SH looks pretty boring. It's all about avoiding actual unit interactions (even if it doesnt stall out games like its predessor). The reason it's included is because Blizzard could so easily just have scrapped it and replaced it with the Lurker, and noone would have shred a tear.
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On April 03 2015 01:55 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 01:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 03 2015 01:40 Hider wrote:Yeah, but outside of this interaction the pick-up range seems broken. Kinda like medivacs with speed boost, where at first everyone will consider it ridiculous and then get used to it and marvel at Parting's awesome immortal harassment. But really, it will be not fun, because you can't stop it unless you build a viking. Yeh true, but I went from thinking "this is the dumbest thing ever" to "maybe this would work better if it was included along with the Warp Prism speed upgrade. This is still the dumbest thing ever except cyclones. Including it with warp prism speed would maybe make a little sense, but I'm pretty adamant this is a bad idea that makes the warp prism something you just can't punish without air units, which is bad design. Got me thinking. Why not make a top 5 ranking over dumest missteps ever (with extra weights to stuff that was in the game for way too long).
This is my personal top 5: (1) Swarm Hosts --> Should never have gone from beta to release. (2) Warhound --> The fact that this ever was part of internal testings for more than 10 minutes is a big failtulre. (3) WOL infestors --> 2 years with this awfull ability, and especially during the last year it became very obvious that a change was needed. (4) Cyclone --> ... (5) LOTV Swarm Hosts --> Okay I admit this one is not nearly as bad as the ones above, but this new SH looks pretty !@#$%^&* dumb. It's all about avoiding actual unit interactions (even if it doesnt stall out games like its predessor). The reason it's included is because Blizzard could so easily just have scrapped it and replaced it with the Lurker, and noone would have shred a tear.
Top 5 for me :
1 and by far : the time they took to deal with broodlord infestor at the end of WoL.
2 : the oracle speed buff.
3 : swarm hosts in general.
4 and 5 tied : warhounds and cyclones.
I personally think another misstep was making P so reliant on sentries, but it's such an old one and I'm pretty sure something good could have been done with the sentry, so no cigar. Everything in my top 5 is just so retarded.
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On April 03 2015 01:11 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +With the immortal nerf (which is a good thing for the game as a whole) It seems like we need a tanky ranged unit that can deal with armored units early on without pigeon holing us into 1 tech path for the midgame. I keep thinking that the unit you are talking about here is the Immortal? Why are you happy that this has received an overall nerf? Is it because its boring to control? Is it becuase it is produced out of an expensive production facility? If so, aren't those issues easily adressed?
It has been up to this point. I support the nerf on the premise that hard counters to specific units stifle diversity and are bad for the strategic evolution of the game in the long run. I think the immortal played a large part in keeping mech pretty obscure in TvP, and softening it up might leave room for more reliable mech plays.
Even if we reverted the immortal changes, I'm not sure it would perform against the ravager pushes. Their cost and method of production means that you only really have time to get out 2-3 in preparation for that kind of a push, and before lotv they relied on force fields to keep them safe in their small numbers. By the time hydras were a threat, it was reasonable to have other tech developed to answer them, so it worked. But with the ravager attack, the zerg can force you to burn your force fields much more quickly, and the immortals become a lot more vulnerable. But that's just theorycraft. If someone who has played the game wants to put in their two cents on this that would be awesome, but I think the disruptor is pretty much necessary to deal with them based purely on what I've seen in the last day. Maybe storms or defensive stasis?
Either way, I don't think the adept is the unit we were asking for. Maybe a cheaper, weaker immortal from the gateway is. Maybe we don't need that kind of unit at all, if other options are good enough. A lot of shit is up in the air right now, but I think most people agree the ravager pushes look really strong, and I just don't want it to be one of those things where protoss has to open a specific way every game because the risk of dying to the push or the follow ups is too great.
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in SC2, it goes for the route that each spell casters can't spam a lot of spell, but you can build a lot of them so you will have enough available and even then, you have to make sure you have enough actual damage units.
LoL is about no spamming in actual engagement, landing spell on right target that make or break your team battle.
I agree, and my point is that I think it's very doable to learn from LOL here. If you generally have less spellcasters (say 2-3 infestors instead of 5). If you can only get of one fungal initially at the start of the battle, and if fungal is balanced around purely being a damage spell and not a slow spell, you are gonna see a similar interaction here. You cast, and the enemy tries to react and doge it.
The major difference when it comes to skillshot interactions between MOBA's and RTS's are that the latter should be purely reaction-based while you can combine reaction with prediction in MOBA's. The projectiles must therefore be slower in an RTS (and balanced around this fact).
It has been up to this point. I support the nerf on the premise that hard counters to specific units stifle diversity and are bad for the strategic evolution of the game in the long run. I think the immortal played a large part in keeping mech pretty obscure in TvP, and softening it up might leave room for more reliable mech plays.
Even if we reverted the immortal changes, I'm not sure it would perform against the ravager pushes.
Look, I think your right here, but the Immortal can imo be changed to fulfill the needed roles pretty well. Imagine the effect of these changes;
(a) Make Immortal much less of a hardcounter unit (balanced around no hardened shield).
(b) make the Immortal alot more resposnsive/mobile (as the Dragoon is)
(c) Make it actually possible to produce them faster to boost the production speed of protoss (reduce cost of Robo to 150/50).
With increased mobility, the Immortal would also have an easier time doding skillshots of Ravagers and could kite a bit against them as well. And w/ the production boost --> You can have more Immortals in the midgame --> Increases cost-efficieny of your army --> You have a better chance of surviving a timing attack.
And this is a big issue. Toss already was very weak in midgame in HOTS, and with new changes to the economy, the lack of army strengt/mobility is further hurting protoss (and then you add Ravager on top of that). But I just don't see reasons to add new units here when you already have one unit to fulfill the needed role (but the unit just needs some stat changes).
the oracle speed buff.
Oh not just the Oracle in general? Such a dumb unit w/ or without speedbuff. It should definitely have replaced the LOTV-SH in my list.
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Ravagers seem too strong vs seige tanks. Mech also seems to have more problems expanding vs zerg and terran, albeit mma isn't the best mech player.
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On April 03 2015 02:08 Hider wrote:Oh not just the Oracle in general? Such a dumb unit w/ or without speedbuff. It should definitely have replaced the LOTV-SH in my list.
I think the oracle would actually have been tolerable without that buff. That buff broke it forever and sealed P to be unbeatable for half a year against T, alongside the dumb blink maps of the time. One of the biggest and less understandable mistakes they ever made, leading indirectly to the vanishing of templar chargelot in PvT and making it the stalest and most uninteresting non mirror match-up of all time.
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On April 03 2015 02:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 01:55 Hider wrote:On April 03 2015 01:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 03 2015 01:40 Hider wrote:Yeah, but outside of this interaction the pick-up range seems broken. Kinda like medivacs with speed boost, where at first everyone will consider it ridiculous and then get used to it and marvel at Parting's awesome immortal harassment. But really, it will be not fun, because you can't stop it unless you build a viking. Yeh true, but I went from thinking "this is the dumbest thing ever" to "maybe this would work better if it was included along with the Warp Prism speed upgrade. This is still the dumbest thing ever except cyclones. Including it with warp prism speed would maybe make a little sense, but I'm pretty adamant this is a bad idea that makes the warp prism something you just can't punish without air units, which is bad design. Got me thinking. Why not make a top 5 ranking over dumest missteps ever (with extra weights to stuff that was in the game for way too long).
This is my personal top 5: (1) Swarm Hosts --> Should never have gone from beta to release. (2) Warhound --> The fact that this ever was part of internal testings for more than 10 minutes is a big failtulre. (3) WOL infestors --> 2 years with this awfull ability, and especially during the last year it became very obvious that a change was needed. (4) Cyclone --> ... (5) LOTV Swarm Hosts --> Okay I admit this one is not nearly as bad as the ones above, but this new SH looks pretty !@#$%^&* dumb. It's all about avoiding actual unit interactions (even if it doesnt stall out games like its predessor). The reason it's included is because Blizzard could so easily just have scrapped it and replaced it with the Lurker, and noone would have shred a tear. Top 5 for me : 1 and by far : the time they took to deal with broodlord infestor at the end of WoL. 2 : the oracle speed buff. 3 : swarm hosts in general. 4 and 5 tied : warhounds and cyclones. I personally think another misstep was making P so reliant on sentries, but it's such an old one and I'm pretty sure something good could have been done with the sentry, so no cigar. Everything in my top 5 is just so retarded.
1 the time they took to deal with broodlord infestor at the end of WoL.
2 Widow mine nerf at the end of 2013: took away the only reliable splash damage in tvz without adequate replacement. even blizzard admitted their mistake by now which has to mean something.
3 Widow mine + shield damage: killed the entertaining templar first style in favor of boring collossus turtle.
4 swarmhosts: well, swarmhosts are not always bad; especially in korea we have seen some action packed swarmhost games. but the fact that the unit has the potential to create hour long stalemates is definitely a huge issue.
5 tempests: boring hardcounter unit that renders all massive air units useless once they are on the field. also hardcounters mech.
edit: oracles would be at 6 if i would make a top 6. It's not the biggest issue but a unit that is built exclusively for cheese is certainly bad design.
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This thread just went full battlenet foruns. I'm out.
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On April 03 2015 03:08 Tiaraju9 wrote:
This thread just went full battlenet foruns. I'm out.
Yeah. It's pretty bad.
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Wow i did not understand how disruptors worked, i thought they couldnt move whole invulnerable which was what allowed you to micro against them. Apparently i was mistaken. Seems really strong combined with new warp prism. Gonna have to up my static defense game.
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On April 03 2015 01:43 AngryMag wrote:
Cyclone looks a bit over the top right now, it just beats everything. I don't have a problem with the unit per se, but it would be nice if you would have to micromanage the lock on ability, auto lock on seems kinda boring. Combined with the tank drops, a revival of mech strategies seems to be possible.
I've seen a lot of cyclone play and I have to say I love the unit, the only problema right now its the stats, a lot of HP, damage and range, wich makes them easy to use when massed, however they do require a lot of micro, the only problema is that with the range theres not much counter micro, plus the fact that you don't need visión to keep the lock on.
The cyclone is very versatile I think its a fun unit, opening hellion/cyclone allows for a mech player to be out on the map and that is pretty fun, not to mention something mech really needed.
If they make it more of a mobile map control unit, with some harras (but not a harras unit perse) it would be really good.
I think what they should do is:
- Nerf stats: HP, damage, range. (speed is fine I think,)
- Lock on is broken if unit is out of sight range: pretty obvious, gives good micro option and allows for maps to be used as a blance tool
- Reduce the cost: If they are nerfed heavily I think some 100/100 cost should be fine, cyclones shouldn't be used as a main army unit.
Of course I expect people to say that the cyclone is stupid that it should be removed and that theres is no fixing it (ie: going full b.net fórum), but I like the concept of the unit so far.
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On April 03 2015 03:37 Lobotomist wrote:
Wow i did not understand how disruptors worked, i thought they couldnt move whole invulnerable which was what allowed you to micro against them. Apparently i was mistaken. Seems really strong combined with new warp prism. Gonna have to up my static defense game.
This version is very strong, but a version that couldn't move while invulnerable would just be too easy to counter for 300 gas and totally useless. Finding the happy medium (especially for disruptor vs Z) should be the aim ; the invulnerability + extreme damage output should have some heavier drawbacks IMO, even for such a heavy gas cost.
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On April 03 2015 03:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 03:37 Lobotomist wrote:
Wow i did not understand how disruptors worked, i thought they couldnt move whole invulnerable which was what allowed you to micro against them. Apparently i was mistaken. Seems really strong combined with new warp prism. Gonna have to up my static defense game. This version is very strong, but a version that couldn't move while invulnerable would just be too easy to counter for 300 gas and totally useless. Finding the happy medium (especially for disruptor vs Z) should be the aim ; the invulnerability + extreme damage output should have some heavier drawbacks IMO, even for such a heavy gas cost.
I must be the only who doesn't find the Disruptor very strong since in a straight-up fight you're basically guaranteed to lose it d:
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On April 03 2015 04:01 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 03:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 03 2015 03:37 Lobotomist wrote:
Wow i did not understand how disruptors worked, i thought they couldnt move whole invulnerable which was what allowed you to micro against them. Apparently i was mistaken. Seems really strong combined with new warp prism. Gonna have to up my static defense game. This version is very strong, but a version that couldn't move while invulnerable would just be too easy to counter for 300 gas and totally useless. Finding the happy medium (especially for disruptor vs Z) should be the aim ; the invulnerability + extreme damage output should have some heavier drawbacks IMO, even for such a heavy gas cost. I must be the only who doesn't find the Disruptor very strong since in a straight-up fight you're basically guaranteed to lose it d:
I just read that disruptor doesn't damage burrowed units. Is that true ?
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On April 03 2015 04:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 04:01 OtherWorld wrote:On April 03 2015 03:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 03 2015 03:37 Lobotomist wrote:
Wow i did not understand how disruptors worked, i thought they couldnt move whole invulnerable which was what allowed you to micro against them. Apparently i was mistaken. Seems really strong combined with new warp prism. Gonna have to up my static defense game. This version is very strong, but a version that couldn't move while invulnerable would just be too easy to counter for 300 gas and totally useless. Finding the happy medium (especially for disruptor vs Z) should be the aim ; the invulnerability + extreme damage output should have some heavier drawbacks IMO, even for such a heavy gas cost. I must be the only who doesn't find the Disruptor very strong since in a straight-up fight you're basically guaranteed to lose it d: I just read that disruptor doesn't damage burrowed units. Is that true ?
I have seen it kill burrowed lurkers.
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On April 03 2015 04:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 04:01 OtherWorld wrote:On April 03 2015 03:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 03 2015 03:37 Lobotomist wrote:
Wow i did not understand how disruptors worked, i thought they couldnt move whole invulnerable which was what allowed you to micro against them. Apparently i was mistaken. Seems really strong combined with new warp prism. Gonna have to up my static defense game. This version is very strong, but a version that couldn't move while invulnerable would just be too easy to counter for 300 gas and totally useless. Finding the happy medium (especially for disruptor vs Z) should be the aim ; the invulnerability + extreme damage output should have some heavier drawbacks IMO, even for such a heavy gas cost. I must be the only who doesn't find the Disruptor very strong since in a straight-up fight you're basically guaranteed to lose it d: I just read that disruptor doesn't damage burrowed units. Is that true ?
I don't think so, no
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On April 03 2015 04:08 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 04:01 OtherWorld wrote:On April 03 2015 03:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 03 2015 03:37 Lobotomist wrote:
Wow i did not understand how disruptors worked, i thought they couldnt move whole invulnerable which was what allowed you to micro against them. Apparently i was mistaken. Seems really strong combined with new warp prism. Gonna have to up my static defense game. This version is very strong, but a version that couldn't move while invulnerable would just be too easy to counter for 300 gas and totally useless. Finding the happy medium (especially for disruptor vs Z) should be the aim ; the invulnerability + extreme damage output should have some heavier drawbacks IMO, even for such a heavy gas cost. I must be the only who doesn't find the Disruptor very strong since in a straight-up fight you're basically guaranteed to lose it d: I just read that disruptor doesn't damage burrowed units. Is that true ?
I have no idea, I never saw it in action against burrowed units. I don't think that it's the case since every single AOE unit in the game deals damage to burrowed units unless I'm mistaken?
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Will Terran get another unit ?
Cause warehound had been already removed from HOTS, now herc from LOTV, so Terran only get one new unit when protoss and zerg get 2.
I saw on boards a contest was organized for creating a new terran unit. When will we have the results ? I really hope one player will create such a cool and balanced unit for terran
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EPT
