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On April 02 2015 23:54 Big J wrote:
OK, so I'm under the same impression of Grumbels that the corrosive bile right now had like 8-9range, but I haven't ever seen stats on it. If it was 12.5 currently, that would already be more than I'd be aiming for (which would be like 10-11... so less than a siege tank, but enough to pick off the outer tanks without being shot by the whole siege line).
Yeh when I was suggeting lower range it was based on my tests with it in the LOTV unit tester. I guess I can follow the idea that giving the current role it has, maybe it would be slightly better if it was balanced around a higher range (but not really sure - still don't see the big potential on it as a short range unit).
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Bomber is offracing as Zerg right now against MMA, MMA is laughing as he can't kill Ultralisks at all, they are literally immortal now rofl.
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On April 02 2015 23:59 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 23:54 Big J wrote:
OK, so I'm under the same impression of Grumbels that the corrosive bile right now had like 8-9range, but I haven't ever seen stats on it. If it was 12.5 currently, that would already be more than I'd be aiming for (which would be like 10-11... so less than a siege tank, but enough to pick off the outer tanks without being shot by the whole siege line). Yeh when I was suggeting lower range it was based on my tests with it in the LOTV unit tester. I guess I can follow the idea that giving the current role it has, maybe it would be slightly better if it was balanced around a higher range (but not really sure - still don't see the big potential on it as a short range unit).
I'm not really informed, but didn't people say that roaches had 4.75 movement speed when burrowed in the unit tester? (which turned out to be a bug obviously) The stats might not be perfectly correct there.
On April 02 2015 23:49 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 23:41 Hider wrote:I fear that's not going to happen. I'm trying to form my arguments as much as possible around working with the ravager. If we have any chance with forum discussions to influence what blizzard is doing, it is by giving specific suggestions and not so much by suggesting bigger reworks. If that was the case, I think everyone would have much stronger opinions what each and every unit should do and be changed into. I guess I am different here as I don't really care about solutions that can make the game 5-10% better. From my perspective, the game is very very far off from where I would consider playing this over League of Legends. You bring to the discussion preconceived notions of "fun interactions" or what "would make ME playing LotV". Absolutely pointless discussion.
So then argue with his perspective, nobody is stopping you.
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On April 03 2015 00:05 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Bomber is offracing as Zerg right now against MMA, MMA is laughing as he can't kill Ultralisks at all, they are literally immortal now rofl.
hahah i just tuned in, those ultras look so much better than they are in hots
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On April 03 2015 00:09 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 23:59 Hider wrote:On April 02 2015 23:54 Big J wrote:
OK, so I'm under the same impression of Grumbels that the corrosive bile right now had like 8-9range, but I haven't ever seen stats on it. If it was 12.5 currently, that would already be more than I'd be aiming for (which would be like 10-11... so less than a siege tank, but enough to pick off the outer tanks without being shot by the whole siege line). Yeh when I was suggeting lower range it was based on my tests with it in the LOTV unit tester. I guess I can follow the idea that giving the current role it has, maybe it would be slightly better if it was balanced around a higher range (but not really sure - still don't see the big potential on it as a short range unit). I'm not really informed, but didn't people say that roaches had 4.75 movement speed when burrowed in the unit tester? (which turned out to be a bug obviously) The stats might not be perfectly correct there.
I think Jakatak might have researched an upgrade that was in the unit tester but not in the actual game (or something like that). Roaches whne burrowed "only" have 2.75 speed in LOTV.
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4713 Posts
On April 02 2015 23:53 helius788 wrote:
Regarding the Ravager:
Is a bio-opener now viable against the ravagers? I feel like marauders don't cut it anymore and ravagers own bunkers.
Cyclones seems like a must have in TvZ vs. ravagers
And since Terran get's AA with the cyclone and Thor, y even build starports till the late game for Banshee/BCs?
Against Ravagers you either go Hellion Banshee openers or Tank drop openers. Of course both are vulnerable to 2 base mutas so diligent scouting and a appropriate follow up is required, no greedy 3 CC double Engi bay shenanigans.
Oh and from there you can go either bio or mech.
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Well the biggest fail of the beta thus far is no unit, it's the maps...
How can you mess up the mineral distribution on some of them? really blizzard?
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On April 02 2015 21:00 Hider wrote:This is nonsense. Balance isn't the only thing to take into account when releasing a game. They need to have proper models, removal of bugs, sounds, redeisgn of old units and the new units must be implemented properly as well. The point here is that these balance issues weren't unexpected, and Blizzard has had lots of months since Blizzcon to come up with ways to give toss a proper midgame in order to prepare them for a world where Forcefields can be countered and they need to take bases faster. All they have managed to do since then is create a shadow-unit that doesn't really fit in anywhere.... Exactly because this is a beta, they should have been experimented with more radical changes that potentially could be balanced, but would require testing to confirm (and tweak). Like why not reduce the cost of the Robo Facility to like 150/50 and/or make templar tech more accessible as well? These changes would boost toss in the midgame. Maybe it would result in unintended consequences or maybe it could actually result in giving toss a much more solid core army composition. But that's the point of the beta, you test out changes that theoretically could work, but which you are unsure of in practice. On the other hand, testing out stuff that's obviously imbalanced is wasting alot of playtesters time.
What the fuck? Wasting their time? They don't have to play test anything! My God. I honestly cannot believe the amount of Protoss players bitching in this thread. It's not even a constructive type of complaining, either. It's more of a "Wah Wah" complaining, which is annoying. Stop. Anyway, balance may not be the only thing Blizzard is looking to get feedback on from the beta, but I can tell you right now that it is certainly the most important thing. Anyway, stop crying about it. They've made some radical changes and I'm sure balances are to come soon. P.S. You're not the only one, by the way, but you're certainly one of them.
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On April 03 2015 00:09 KingofdaHipHop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 00:05 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Bomber is offracing as Zerg right now against MMA, MMA is laughing as he can't kill Ultralisks at all, they are literally immortal now rofl. hahah i just tuned in, those ultras look so much better than they are in hots
I can't join the stream now, but I can imagine that the effective HP of the Ultras has increased significantly against all sorts of units. Against units that do 10 HP per shot, this means their effective HP has DOUBLED, as does the efficiency of Transfuse when fighting against these units. Simply crazy.
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Oh pls, riot is totally unable to balance and design their game. How many champs are truly viable AND fun to play?
I am not talking about balance here (but atm it is generally accepted that there is a high amount of viability of different champs). The point is that Riot are masters at refining numers to get the best interactions. Over the years they have tweaked stats of projectile speed, model sizes and various damage-numbers to allow for great counterplay. Most champs needs to get into a "danger"-zone before they can utilize their fullest potential, which creates excitement.
Then lets look at changes Blizzard has made: Tempest and Lurkers are rewarded for staying at super long range and never actually being part of an actual "engagement":
Then they add an abduct where you can click on enemy units and there is no counterplay to it.... Or now: Creates Immortal where you press a button in order to "micro".
For each champion, Riot experiemtns with several variables where Blizzard is more like "hey let's add this cool new unit to the game" or "hey this cool guy should get an ability to be microable". Why is there no tweaks to damagepoint, range, projectile, turn rate, speed or movement speed for any of the units that desperetately needs it?
TLDR: I don't care about balance really. I care about interactions, and I wanna see Blizzard be ambitious and do whatever to improve them.
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On April 02 2015 18:17 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 18:06 Umpteen wrote:
Personally, I like the way it's going. It feels fast-paced, even though there are generally more bases. Are games over too quickly? I don't know. I think I'd rather have long games be rare, epic, memorable events than have casters desperately trying to fill while we wait for the one big decisive fight. wouldn't it be cool though if they at least tried to make most of the games not boil down to 1 deathball fight? unless adding stuff like super burrow roaches, protoss nuke-unit, super prisms and keeping sutff like muta balls and speedivacs actually supposed to be their attempts at it.
I think that's exactly what Blizzard is trying to do. And I think the resource change is how they are going to do it. LOTV is, for a few reasons, quite scrappy, which I'm enjoying. I think this is certainly better than big deathball fights and I hope the game stays that way. However, I think it's so scrappy right now because there is no resemblance of a meta game yet AND because of the resource change.
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On April 03 2015 00:22 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Oh pls, riot is totally unable to balance and design their game. How many champs are truly viable AND fun to play? I am not talking about balance here (but atm it is generally accepted that there is a high amount of viability of different champs). The point is that Riot are masters at refining numers to get the best interactions. Over the years they have tweaked stats of projectile speed, model sizes and damage to allow for great counterplay. Then lets look at Blizzard: Adds an abduct where you can click on enemy units and there is no counterplay to it.... Or Immortal that has had the same low movement speed, and Blizzard's solutions is to add a button you active to get a shield...
Riot are masters to make the champs homogeneous (which is also the reason the meta in lol is EXTREMELY important, some champs are just way better at doing X than the other alternatives), that's it... TBF, i didn't play league in the last 2-3 months.
If Blizzard would go the same way and just make the races and units very much alike, you would be happy?
Also the genres are so different, it just makes NO SENSE to compare the two tbh, in league all you do is to "micro" that one champ, in starcraft there is so much more to do => some things just have to work with little "counterplay", otherwise it would be almost impossible to have different races AND balance.
But i guess this isn't the best place to argue about riot's design and balance philosophy ^^
I still hate the ravager btw
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Riot are masters to make the champs homogeneous (which is also the reason the meta in lol is EXTREMELY important, some champs are just way better at doing X than the other alternatives), that's it... TBF, i didn't play league in the last 2-3 months.
If Blizzard would go the same way and just make the races and units very much alike, you would be happy?
The whole homgoneous-thing is mostly a consequence of Riot priortizing counterplay over hardcounters.
In an RTS, the whole homogenous-thing doens't make sense at all. Like are Hydras and Marines homgenous and is that a cause for concern? This seems like an absolute weird place to move the direction at.
if anything, I feel your going on a strawman where you want to discredit Riot for some of the good thing it has done by moving the discussion to "stale meta", when I am talking about the fact that LOL has lots of counterplay/micro and Sc2 doesn't. (and explaining how that is a result of the fact that Riot tweaks more variables than Blizzard).
Also the genres are so different, it just makes NO SENSE to compare the two tbh, in league all you do is to "micro" that one champ, in starcraft there is so much more to do => some things just have to work with little "counterplay", otherwise it would be almost impossible to have different races AND balance.
Look, counterplay is counterplay. Yes counterplay works differently in an RTS and in a MOBA, but from the perspective of the developer, there is a common ground: TWEAK NUMBERS TO IMPROVE INTERACTIONS!!!!
The fact that Riot actually has managed to create lots of high skill champs with potential for outplay when you can only control one of them at once --> A sign they are tweaking the right variables.
The fact that there are so many still in Sc2 that are rewarded for amoving or pressing a simple button --> That's a sign that blizzard aren't tweaking the right variables.
TLDR: I want Blizzard to go through all the numbers of units in Sc2 (as Riot does) --> Find ways to make these micro interactions and unique roles as interesting as possible.
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On April 03 2015 00:19 ohmylanta1003 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2015 21:00 Hider wrote:They don't. If they did, that would be a release, not a beta. This is nonsense. Balance isn't the only thing to take into account when releasing a game. They need to have proper models, removal of bugs, sounds, redeisgn of old units and the new units must be implemented properly as well. The point here is that these balance issues weren't unexpected, and Blizzard has had lots of months since Blizzcon to come up with ways to give toss a proper midgame in order to prepare them for a world where Forcefields can be countered and they need to take bases faster. All they have managed to do since then is create a shadow-unit that doesn't really fit in anywhere.... Exactly because this is a beta, they should have been experimented with more radical changes that potentially could be balanced, but would require testing to confirm (and tweak). Like why not reduce the cost of the Robo Facility to like 150/50 and/or make templar tech more accessible as well? These changes would boost toss in the midgame. Maybe it would result in unintended consequences or maybe it could actually result in giving toss a much more solid core army composition. But that's the point of the beta, you test out changes that theoretically could work, but which you are unsure of in practice. On the other hand, testing out stuff that's obviously imbalanced is wasting alot of playtesters time. What the fuck? Wasting their time? They don't have to play test anything! My God. I honestly cannot believe the amount of Protoss players bitching in this thread. It's not even a constructive type of complaining, either. It's more of a "Wah Wah" complaining, which is annoying. Stop. Anyway, balance may not be the only thing Blizzard is looking to get feedback on from the beta, but I can tell you right now that it is certainly the most important thing. Anyway, stop crying about it. They've made some radical changes and I'm sure balances are to come soon. P.S. You're not the only one, by the way, but you're certainly one of them.
Blizzard often fails basic competency tests.
I think their motivations can be quite arcane and often based on complex business considerations. For instance, you'll notice that they didn't bother with even a single pure balance change in the beta. This probably leaves the beta in an imbalanced state. Now you could wonder whether they decided to save on internal playtesting resources by not bothering with balance changes, or maybe they felt that adding balance changes would be pointless given the limitations of internal testing, or maybe they wanted to focus purely on high level design or whatever. The explanations are endless, but it still leaves the players with an imbalanced game.
I think a company has a responsibility of basic competence to the people dependent on their product, and as such Blizzard should be called out for not living up to this.
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Austria24417 Posts
As protoss:
I don't mind ravager design at all, I think it's quite fun actually. Definitely needs tweaking though, it currently has WAY too much synergy with mass roach midgame attacks. We need forcefields or massively buffed early midgame options. Especially since even immortals got nerfed hard.
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On April 03 2015 00:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
As protoss:
I don't mind ravager design at all, I think it's quite fun actually. Definitely needs tweaking though, it currently has WAY too much synergy with mass roach midgame attacks. We need forcefields or massively buffed early midgame options. Especially since even immortals got nerfed hard.
I think Huk said it best yesterday: It doesn't really matter what tech protoss goes, zerg always should build ravagers.
The same should be true in ZvZ tbh.
Not sure about ZvT though
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Just saw MMA do drop micro with tanks. I originally didn't like the siege tank change, but that was awesome.
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On April 03 2015 00:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
Riot are masters to make the champs homogeneous (which is also the reason the meta in lol is EXTREMELY important, some champs are just way better at doing X than the other alternatives), that's it... TBF, i didn't play league in the last 2-3 months.
If Blizzard would go the same way and just make the races and units very much alike, you would be happy?
The whole homgoneous-thing is mostly a consequence of Riot priortizing counterplay over hardcounters. In an RTS, the whole homogenous-thing doens't make sense at all. Like are Hydras and Marines homgenous?? It just doesn't make sense to talk about stale meta and homogene stuff in the context of what Blizzard could learn from Riot. Show nested quote +Also the genres are so different, it just makes NO SENSE to compare the two tbh, in league all you do is to "micro" that one champ, in starcraft there is so much more to do => some things just have to work with little "counterplay", otherwise it would be almost impossible to have different races AND balance. Look, counterplay is counterplay. Yes counterplay works differently in an RTS and in a MOBA, but from the perspective of the developer, there is a common ground: TWEAK NUMBERS TO IMPROVE INTERACTIONS!!!! The fact that Riot actually has managed to create lots of high skill champs with potential for outplay when you can only control one of them at once --> A sign they are tweaking the right variables. The fact that there are so many still in Sc2 that are rewarded for amoving or pressing a simple button --> That's a sign that blizzard aren't tweaking the right variables. TLDR: I want Blizzard to go through all the numbers of units in Sc2 (as Riot does) --> Find ways to make these micro interactions and unique roles as interesting as possible.
Don't get me wrong, i also think there should be MORE interesting micro interactions in sc2.
But i also think you simply cannot expect to have microintensive counterplay to every single spell (you mentioned abduct) and unit in a rts which is very much about macro and multitasking.
Sometimes Unit/Spell X just HAS TO WORK without the fear of it doing almost nothign when the enemy microes well (counterplay) against it.
Different genres
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On April 03 2015 00:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
As protoss:
I don't mind ravager design at all, I think it's quite fun actually. Definitely needs tweaking though, it currently has WAY too much synergy with mass roach midgame attacks. We need forcefields or massively buffed early midgame options. Especially since even immortals got nerfed hard.
Well, Roaches have now burrow movement by default so I don't think that Force Fields are problem at all even without Ravagers. Funny thing is that Ravagers were supposed to be the solution to Force Fields that we finally got and instead they are used just for zoning out and their idiotic dps.
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As a zerg player who has been watching stream constantly since launch, I think Ravager should be available at lair tech. its a little too powerful against pvz FE.
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EPT
