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Cricketer12
United States13990 Posts
On April 02 2015 14:29 ROOTFayth wrote: I'm still confused about the colossus change, shoudn't it be cheaper now with that massive a nerf? lol Terran zerg and me in PvP rage about collosus disruptor far more micro oriented | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
Hydras should be the main generalistic DPS. Don't focus excessively on stats here, and FYI Hydralisk still has 65% more DPS per cost (and more HP, so its overall stats are better. Instead, look at the concept here: (1) Decent DPS (compared to the high DPS of Hydra and low DPS of Roach) (2) High-range (compared to low range of Roach and mid range of Hydra) (3) Very fragile (compared to Hydra being kinda fragile and Roach being tanky) That's all there is in the idea for now. Now maybe its damage shouldnt be 24. As I wrote in my initial suggestin it might be better if it had higher damage vs light (or armored) with the skill being the reverse. I haven't figured out yet what creates the most fun interactions. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
My take would be: -7 attack range -doesn't have an active ability -around 30 damage with small AoE -2.5 attack speed(right now it is 0.8) and their attack has 1 second delay before it lands, opponent can evade it. -160-180 HP -2.25 movement speed(like unupgraded Roach), gains movement speed buff with Roach speed upgrade, but only to the 2.75 -can target ground with its attack to destroy force fields This way I think that they would feel a lot different from Roaches and Hydralisks, as they would be tanky, slow mortar-like units and you wouldn't want just to mass them as they would be terrible in straight engagements. They would support main armies of Roaches and Hydralisks, or Lings and Banelings, maybe even used later in the game if you don't want to go to the Ultralisks for Force Fields, or just to add a bit of AoE against Terran and force opponent to split even more. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
Hydralisk - 90 HP - Damage changed to 10 +2 vs armored - attack cooldown = 0.73 Ravager - 85 HP - 8 attack range - Damage = 16 + 10 vs light (attack cooldown = 1.3) - Skillshot damage = 35 vs light + 45 vs armored (doesn't oneshot workers) - Skillshot AOE radius = 20-30% larger. - Skillshot CD = 15 secs. - Skillshot range = 8-9 - Movement speed = Still undecided, but it needs to be relatively fast as it is fragile and intended to be repositioned a lot during engagements as it needs to get closer to the enemy armored units to land skillshots and then go back to safety again. Effect - Zerg without Ravager is slightly weaker vs light units now, while the Ravager - as long as it is protected - deal pretty solid damage through its core attack to light units. - In order to kill armored units on the other hand, you need to land your skillshot while the Hydralisk (in general) is signifciantly better vs armored units The implication here is that having both Ravagers and Hydras aren't dead neccesities if you consistently can land your skilshots. However, it's much more reliable to have both Hydras, Roaches and Ravagers vs Immortals/Maurauders. Especially since Ravagers are armored and thus esaily can get sniped against Immortals and Maurauders. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On April 02 2015 22:18 Elentos wrote: But with that, zerg has tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 siege options, is that really necessary? Would this not make lurkers obsolete? I think that the Ravager is quite a bit different from other "Siege" units. - Ravager is meant to break FF and deal lots of damage to single immobile units. Counters SiegeTank, Lurker, Forcefield. (Single Target Damage, AntiAir capabilities) - Lurkers are meant to deal lineal splash DPS, specially strong vs bio and balls of units. They are static when attacking ant don't have a big range until upgraded. (Antideathball, Splash Damage,) - SwarmHosts are teorically meant to add DPS to the army for free and be able to zone enemies out continously. With LotV changes, it's concieved to flank/harass by launching a wave to deal damage instead of continous launch of units. With flying locusts, they are siege breakers. (Harass, Siege breakers) - Broodlords are frontal Siege units, that deal big damage from the distance and can move. Can be present in direct engagements, is semi-mobile. Though units, good DPS (Siege, Siege Breakers) I only see overlapping between new SwarmHosts and Broodlords. Ravager is quite different. Also giving Zerg a ranged unit (6-7 range) that is not squishy is not a bad idea. That's why I think that it doesn't need to be really that efficient in direct fights. All in all, if you keep DPS/HP as a constant, fights tend to maintain results (obviously, shots to kill is also important, but that's the simplest version of this concept). We are supposed to be making a new version of StarCraft where fights aren't completed in 2 seconds. That's why I don't like the glass-cannon philosphy. What's more, the Ravager, which is a Roach morph and huge in size, should at least have some more HP than the roach. | ||
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Elentos
55566 Posts
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On April 02 2015 22:52 Elentos wrote: The question is, though, will that be balanced for something available before lair? Why should it be available before lair? How much damage has Photon Overcharge done to this game.... | ||
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Denmark9420 Posts
We are supposed to be making a new version of StarCraft where fights aren't completed in 2 seconds. That's why I don't like the glass-cannon philosphy. Imo the best way to accomplish this is to add more countermicro opportunities and getting rid of snowball scenarios. Moreover, notie that I am actually making the Hydra less of a glass cannon here and reducing its DPS? This is a role-swap change primarily, and there are tons of other ways you can effectively reduce DPS in the game while rewarding more micro. The whole tanky short-range Ravager just creates a missed opportunity for more micro to the game. That's not a good thing. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 02 2015 22:04 Hider wrote: The tough part of the Ravager is to make it both feel different micro-wise and role-wise from the Roach and the Ravager. From a micro-perspective, I think its an issue if it stays as a short-range/front-line unit like the Roach as the positional element is lost (and you a-move + spam the skillshot then). For that reason I prefer its more fragile and longer-range and you need to move it in position when you want to cast the skillshot and then quickly get it out of range against. Yup, the 6range with 4range roaches and 5-6range hydras makes it really hard to stand out currently. So far I have seen quite some roach/ravager armies and they feel much too homogenous. However, the glasscanon you are describing is already in the game in the form of the hydralisk. In particular, I think an important idea for the ravager should be that you do not reward making too many of them. Zerg has many other units for that, the ravager should remain somewhat of a specialist imo. Your micro idea is nice, but given the dodgable shot the unit already leads to very unique micro play. Whether you have to pull it forward or not. I do however agree that it feels to spamable right now. And I think this will always be the case unless the ravager is somehow limited in its existance, thus my suggestion to give it a weaker attack and a stronger bile. With that design you discourage massive usage of ravagers, because eventually your opponent will just have too many anti-ravager units on the field if you mass them. It however remains a valueable part of your army if used in smaller amounts to complement your core forces with its spell. On April 02 2015 22:04 Hider wrote: If the Ravager was balanced around very weak core stats, but a much better skillshot, there would be two different solutions: (1) Very low CD (7-12 seconds) + medium damage (25% more damage than it currently deals (2) Medium CD (15 secs) + very high damage (50-100% more damage) The issue with the former solution is that its gonna feel so spammy that its never properly rewarded to attempt to dodge individual skillshots. The issue with the latter is that it could create more "unforgiveable" moments. You look away for one moment and your entire mineral line is gone or 50% of you army value is lost. I think therefore one should try to heavily reward countermicro but be careful about not making splitsecond mistakes too punishable. For that reason I prefer that its core stats are pretty decent. I wouldn't fix on those two solutions to heavily. For example, it could have the medium CD but longer range than now instead of very high damage. Again, the spammy part of the abiltiy is imo best dealt with by punishing too heavy ravager play. E.g. in the case of Terran, you're just going to face too many tanks or bio that stims/drops forward if you make too many ravagers. In the case of Protoss I guess chargelots and blink stalkers would deal relatively easily with my ravager design, as well as air units like carriers. Or as zerg, just overwhelming amounts of roach/hydra or mutalisks or zerglings. But if you had a strong core roach/hydra force you could use those ravagers just to get rid of some pesky targets - tanks, forcefields, static defense - before/during combat, force some extra micro and use choke points to your advantage. Maybe we could even get a form of moving barrage micro from zerg like that. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
However, the glasscanon you are describing is already in the game in the form of the hydralisk. In particular, I think an important idea for the ravager should be that you do not reward making too many of them. Zerg has many other units for that, the ravager should remain somewhat of a specialist imo. I don't know if you've seen the most recent post, but I already highlighted how I would give them unique roles. For example, it could have the medium CD but longer range than now instead of very high damage I just don't see why you think a long-range skillshot on a beefy unit would create fun interactions. Isn't one of the flaws with the current Sc2 that some units never actual take part of the battle? E.g. Tempests and SH and all you attempt to do with those untis is to run away from actual engagements? I know your not proposing 15+ range here, but when you combine high range on a relatively beefy unit, it effectively reduces the risk-taking of the unit and I don't see that as being a good thing in terms of rewarding actual engagements. But okay, I don't know exactly what you mean by long range, but on the test map, 12.5 feels way too much for me. The only thing a long range skillshot could add to the game is to force someone that kites to split up his army (instead of just right clicking away). But I don't know if nerfing kiting is best done through the Ravager. Instead, I think interactions would be so much more fun if it was balanced the other way around: - Relatively modest range on the skillshot with high reward and medium cooldown - Longer range on the standard attack (so it is safe for the most part) but it is very fragile and needs to expose itself to a risk to realize its fullest potential. The point with the skillshot here is to reward skilled zerg players to utilize their Ravagers in situations where it's - given the core stats of the unit - pretty uncomfortable to use them optimally. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
What most of us are discussing here is that Zerg doesn't need another glass cannon. Hydralisk has that role, even if gets some +HP buffs and less DPS to compensate (that could be applied to almost all units in the game). In fact, hydralisks should have got that buffs long time ago. Hydraliks have been quite UP for a while (and I think that they still are a bit UP in fact). Ling/Hydralisk gets rolled even by VoidRay/Sentry/Stalker even when some infestors are mixed in. When they buffed the hydralisk 1 year ago, they simply increased the DPS by 10%, instead of giving +10/20 HP, 1 armor or some speed. +1 armor and +10 HP were ideal to give it some resistance vs burst damage (sentry, bio, phoenix, void ray). But no, they gave more DPS. So if Hydralisk is by definition the glass cannon "marine" of the Zerg, Ravagers should be another type of unit. Right now, if you look at the stats, they overlap a lot. If ravagers replace hydras in that DPS use, hydralisks get even more useless than now. Hydralisks are and should be good units, not only transitional state to become lurkers or dedicated AA while Ravagers get their job done. Personally, I think that shortening a bit the range of the bile but decreasing its time to land could work in a "beefy" Ravager. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
So if Hydralisk is by definition the glass cannon "marine" of the Zerg, Ravagers should be another type of unit. Your argument here is basically that becaue the Hydralisk is the glass cannon in HOTS, therefore it also must be the glass cannon in LOTV. That's a flawed way to look at the game, and instead I believe that we should look at how we can add the most fun interactions to the game and be open to most types of ideas. Based on my arguments presented above, I asses that the game is going to be better if the Hydra gets changed to the midranged glass cannon. If you think otherwise, that's fine, but you should instead try to argue what the disadvantages of a roleswap here (without being overly focussed on specific numbers). Right now, if you look at the stats, they overlap a lot. If ravagers replace hydras in that DPS use, hydralisks get even more useless than now. Hydralisks are and should be good units, not only transitional state to become lurkers or dedicated AA while Ravagers get their job done. I think the thing you keep forgetting here is that there is no easy way to fit Ravagers into the game (role-wise). If you don't change unit stats of Roaches or Hydras, they will either be considered a tanky unit along with the Roach or glass-cannon along with the Hydra here. If you keep it as a Roach-like beefy unit, it's gonna continue to be something you a-move and then you try to hit your skillshots. I don't see that as a terrible thing as I enjoy skillshots, however, I think its far more interesting if you also have to amove it while moving it around during engagements. This is the difference between a good and a potential great solution. FYI, I also believe that Roaches should be 1 supply and have slightly lower damage in order to strenghten their role as a beefy unit in the midgame while buffing their late game utility. Update 2: Just increased HP of Ravager to 85 so Ravagers doens't one shot each other ^^ | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 02 2015 23:03 Hider wrote: I don't know if you've seen the most recent post, but I already highlighted how I would give them unique roles. I fear that's not going to happen. I'm trying to form my arguments as much as possible around working with the ravager. If we have any chance with forum discussions to influence what blizzard is doing, it is by giving specific suggestions and not so much by suggesting bigger reworks. If that was the case, I think everyone would have much stronger opinions what each and every unit should do and be changed into. Specifically, your suggestion to the hydralisk isn't all that different to what it is currently. +10HP, -2/+2 vs armored, -0.02cooldown is all rather minor from a design perspective. On April 02 2015 23:03 Hider wrote: I just don't see why you think a long-range skillshot on a beefy unit would create fun interactions. understand the point of a long-range here. Isn't what you want to have units that gets closer to the battle to expose them selves to a risk-taking? Imo that's an issue with Tempests and SH, they can stay at a very high range and those never get into a danger situation. I know your not proposing 15+ range here, but when you combine high range on a relatively beefy unit, it effectively reduces the risk-taking and removes potential interactions. In this situation, it makes a ton more sense for me to do the reverse: - Relatively modest range on the skillshot with high reward and medium cooldown - Longer range on the standard attack (so it is safe for the most part) but it is very fragile and needs to expose itself to a risk to realize its fullest potential. The point with the skillshot here is to reward skilled zerg players to utilize their Ravagers in situations where it's - given the core stats of the unit - pretty uncomfortable to use them optimally. I don't think the ravager with 120HP/1armor is particulary beefy for a 100/100/3 price currently. The thing with the longer range is that there aren't just marines and marauders in the game that you are going to be fighting against. As I see it, you ideally are going to be massing Tanks and Cyclones and Disruptors when the opponent goes ravager, your design, my design or the current design. Furthermore it doesn't matter whether it is longer range or shorter range for the core micro interaction. There is a marker on the ground that you want to dodge, regardless from which position it was fired. Now you additionally want to bring in the element of exposing the ravager by making it short range, but in my opinion that would heavily cut into the ability to use ravagers against anything but short-mid ranged compositions. Which I feel like I don't need the ravager for, because that's what roaches and hydras (and the new lurker) do already. Amongst playing melee focused to begin with. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
And is the proposed cooldown in blizz-time or in real-time? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
I fear that's not going to happen. I'm trying to form my arguments as much as possible around working with the ravager. If we have any chance with forum discussions to influence what blizzard is doing, it is by giving specific suggestions and not so much by suggesting bigger reworks. If that was the case, I think everyone would have much stronger opinions what each and every unit should do and be changed into. I guess I am different here as I am not particularly focused on solutions that at most can make the game 5-10% better (if more ambitios changes can make it 25% better). From my perspective, the game is very very far off from where I would consider playing this over League of Legends (exactly becasue there are so many stats Blizzard hasn't tweaked over 6 years, while Riot constantly tests numerous variables in order to get the best interactions). I don't think the ravager with 120HP/1armor is particulary beefy for a 100/100/3 price currently. The thing to consider when deciding on HP and range (+ movement speed) is whether it creates interesting counterplay. So if the Ravager can fire its skillshot at 13 range and it has high HP, what does that really add to the game? I just don't imagine a scenario where I think - wow its so awesome it has a high range here, now XXX type of micro possible (is my imagination bad here?). but I'm not sure whether to believe that. 12.5 seems quite high, are you sure it's correct? On the custom map its 12.5 (unless I changed that number yesterday and forgot I did that). | ||
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Magnifico
1958 Posts
On April 02 2015 23:41 Hider wrote: I guess I am different here as I don't really care about solutions that can make the game 5-10% better. From my perspective, the game is very very far off from where I would consider playing this over League of Legends. You bring to the discussion preconceived notions of "fun interactions" or what "would make ME playing LotV". Absolutely pointless discussion. | ||
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helius788
New Zealand74 Posts
Is a bio-opener now viable against the ravagers? I feel like marauders don't cut it anymore and ravagers own bunkers. Cyclones seems like a must have in TvZ vs. ravagers And since Terran get's AA with the cyclone and Thor, y even build starports till the late game for Banshee/BCs? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On April 02 2015 23:41 Hider wrote: I guess I am different here as I don't really care about solutions that at most can make the game 5-10% better (if more ambitios changes can make it 25% better). From my perspective, the game is very very far off from where I would consider playing this over League of Legends (exactly becasue Blizzard has so many stats they haven't tweaked for 6 years, while Riot constantly tweaks and tests lots of variables). The thing to consider when deciding on HP and range (+ movement speed) is whether it creates interesting counterplay. So if the Ravager can fire its skillshot at 13 range and it has high HP, what does that really add to the game? And you compare that to the Ravager at 85 HP and 8 casting range. This Ravager needs to take a risk to fire off its skillshot where it can be killed if the enemy tries to focus fire it. But again, if what your looking for here is just very small tweaks (so it becomes an amove unit + skillshotter) you can indeed increase the range and balance it around that. On the custom map its 12.5 (unless I changed that number yesterday and forgot I did that). From my perspective, the game is very very far off from where I would consider playing this over League of Legends (exactly becasue Blizzard has so many stats they haven't tweaked for 6 years, while Riot constantly tweaks and tests lots of variables). Oh pls, riot is totally unable to balance and design their game. How many champs are truly viable AND fun to play? They have over 100 champs, all they do is rotating the meta (and thus the viable champs) every few months, very good design choice indeed... About the Ravager: As long as this unit has a high dps autoattack AND the spell it's simply too good not to build. Change one of them and this might change | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
On April 02 2015 23:49 Tiaraju9 wrote: You bring to the discussion preconceived notions of "fun interactions" or what "would make ME playing LotV". Absolutely pointless discussion. Is it a pointless discussion to look at ways which the Ravager can fit into the game while creating unique micro interactions and giving it a unique role? In a forum where LOTV is discussed? I disagree there, but I respect that other people are satifised with less ambitious changes. In terms of what Blizzard is most likely to implement, I don't think it matters whether its ambitious or not. The chance of Blizzard looking at this thread and actually being inspired by anything is <1%. So everyone is probably wasting your time if you think your ideas actually are going to contribute positvely to the development of the game. This is simply a discussion for the sake of enjoying a discussion about gamedesign. But anyway, my point here is that I want a very ambitous project from Blizzard here, and I think there are tons of other people like me, who no longer play the game and only really wants to come back if something incredibly awesome (rather than decent) is added. The Disruptor is incredibly awesome, and I want more of that standard into the game. The Ravager is an ambitious idea but with a mediocore implementation. | ||
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