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KingofdaHipHop
United States25602 Posts
On April 03 2015 00:44 JacobShock wrote: As a zerg player who has been watching stream constantly since launch, I think Ravager should be available at lair tech. its a little too powerful against pvz FE. it's not lair tech? i agree then yeah that is super good for hatch tech, probably should move it | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
But i also think you simply cannot expect to have microintensive counterplay to every single spell (you mentioned abduct) and unit in a rts which is very much about macro and multitasking. Too an extent I know what you mean, but I think Blizzard also needs to rethink how spellcassters are designed. When I experiemnted with changes to spellcasters I realized that it indeed was annoying if you didn't land you skills reliably. So then I thought, why isn't this an issue in LOL? Answer: Because you have lower cooldowns on your abiliites/higher mana regen. After some experimentation, I found that if you could cast your abilites once early on in the battle (even if you had max energy) and then cast it for the second time 5-15 seconds later, it actually made it feel more acceptable to be "outmicroed" (read: miss skillshot). But ofc if you just add lower CD/higher mana regen to spellcasters --> they are gonna feel more spamable in an RTS environemnt. That's true and it's why we should reconsider if spellcasters should be 2 supply. So from a general perspective, this is how spellcasters should be designed: - 100 max energy (from 200) - Higher energy regeneration - An increase in supply - Slower projectiles - Higher cast range (as a small compensation for the projectiles being slower). - Slow movement/lock-abilites imo doesn't feel good in an RTS, so I would like to see them replaced w/ abilites that synergizes with your own units (e.g. modified version of Dark Swarm). . (FYI, why are there no line-skillshots in Sc2???) As a quick example of one of those abilites that work on your own units that actually exist in Sc2, Guardian Shield. This is how it currently works: Sentry activates Guardian shield for + 2 armor .... .and that's the end of that interaction. Now let me propose a different solution. Tweaked Guardian Shield - Lower radius - 30% damage reduction vs everything - Sentry Model size increased significantly. - Sentry HP reduced to 30/30 from 40/40 - Sentry DPS increased by 10-20% - Sentry movement speed increased to 2.75 See what the effect of this Sentry would be? The damage reduction effect is actually really strong now and combined with the lower HP, higher DPS and larger model size --> Enemy is heavily rewarded for target firing the sentry. On the other hand, the Sentry is faster and more responsive now and can react to the focus fire by pulling away. But since the radius of this new Guardian Shield is very low, it cannot stay too far out of the battle for too long. Hence it needs to be part of the engagement to function optimally, but only the best players can keep their Sentries alive consistently. The above is a quick example of how you could create a unique microinteraction to protoss that furthermore would buff the Sentry (probably needed now) and help with protoss balance. TLDR; My point isn't that you should copy exactly what Riot does (there are large differences between an RTS and a MOBA). Instead, the point is that there are so many opportunites to add more micro everywhere into the game. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 03 2015 00:46 KingofdaHipHop wrote: it's not lair tech? i agree then yeah that is super good for hatch tech, probably should move it It's just straight up too good right now I think. It's like having 3/2*hydralisks for the price of 3/2*hydralisks, but they also have corrosive bile which is quite powerful. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On April 03 2015 00:49 Hider wrote: So from a general perspective, this is how spellcasters should be designed: - 100 max energy (from 200) - HIgher energy regeneration - Higher supply cost/cost overall - Slower projectiles - Slow movement/lock-abilites imo doesn't feel good in an RTS (even if they have a bit of counterplay), so get rid of them and replace them with abilites that synergizes with your own units (like a modified version of Dark Swarm). I think this is an artifact of the 90's. Energy for spell casters is essentially a resource, which you should carefully nurture and build up. This possibly fits for a slower paced game which can accommodate turtling and lengthy periods of doing nothing, but which falls apart in a more modern high-paced game since either the casters never have energy or you encourage turtling for more energy. A simple example is the sentry, which can gather quite a bit of energy during the early game as nothing is happening; this energy can then be leveraged into a powerful all-in. A more sinister example is the ghost circa 2011. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On April 03 2015 00:46 KingofdaHipHop wrote: it's not lair tech? i agree then yeah that is super good for hatch tech, probably should move it I dont think that would change much since you want roach speed for ravager/roach pushes anyway. It would take away the super quick 4:30 one/two base ravager timings, but do nothing for the unit in the long run. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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KingofdaHipHop
United States25602 Posts
On April 03 2015 00:57 Teoita wrote: I dont think that would change much since you want roach speed for ravager/roach pushes anyway. It would take away the super quick 4:30 one/two base ravager timings, but do nothing for the unit in the long run. well maybe it needs to be pushed back far enough so that Protoss can deal with a super strong early timing attack. | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On April 03 2015 00:36 DarkLordOlli wrote: As protoss: I don't mind ravager design at all, I think it's quite fun actually. Definitely needs tweaking though, it currently has WAY too much synergy with mass roach midgame attacks. We need forcefields or massively buffed early midgame options. Especially since even immortals got nerfed hard. What we need is for the adept to be the "core" unit we asked for. The idea they had for it is cool, and I was excited at first, but the more I watch the more it becomes apparent that it isn't something protoss needs at all right now. With the immortal nerf (which is a good thing for the game as a whole) It seems like we need a tanky ranged unit that can deal with armored units early on without pigeon holing us into 1 tech path for the midgame. Because the real issue isn't the ravager attacks, those will get solved. It's the muta switches that come later that look too strong when you have 900 gas in disrupters and a bunch of zealots left over from holding the ravager push. Then again, winding mutas back to WoL stats might be an option given the two new solid mid game units they have. Anyway I don't think they should change anything quite yet. All that could very well prove to be bullshit. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
With the immortal nerf (which is a good thing for the game as a whole) It seems like we need a tanky ranged unit that can deal with armored units early on without pigeon holing us into 1 tech path for the midgame. I keep thinking that the unit you are talking about here is the Immortal? Why are you happy that this has received an overall nerf? Is it because its boring to control? Is it becuase it is produced out of an expensive production facility? If so, aren't those issues easily adressed? I think this is an artifact of the 90's. Energy for spell casters is essentially a resource, which you should carefully nurture and build up. This possibly fits for a slower paced game which can accommodate turtling and lengthy periods of doing nothing, but which falls apart in a more modern high-paced game since either the casters never have energy or you encourage turtling for more energy. A simple example is the sentry, which can gather quite a bit of energy during the early game as nothing is happening; this energy can then be leveraged into a powerful all-in. A more sinister example is the ghost circa 2011. Yeh I guess so. It's just something that noone has ever questioned before. But when you look at it just seems so dumb that you only can have spellcasters where the enemy has no countermicro, as it would be too annoying to waste mana on something that the enemy can dodge. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
Tbh, the tuning for the disruptor seems a bit off. It's immune to things that maybe should counter it like forcefield and fungal, and it seems way too expensive and hit-or-miss. I don't think a unit this expensive should essentially be a suicide unit, but maybe synergy with the warp prism helps out in adding survivability. Also, this is a pet issue, but why is the disruptor immune to purification nova? It seems unnecessary. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On April 03 2015 01:11 Hider wrote: Yeh I guess so. It's just something that noone has ever questioned before. But when you look at it just seems so dumb that you only can have spellcasters where the enemy has no countermicro, as it would be too annoying to waste mana on something that the enemy can dodge. Even in Brood War the best spell casters were probably the medic and the defiler, which would always have energy. I think that might be a good point: if something is too expensive you can only use it in situations where there is no risk of your opponent avoiding it. On the other hand, there is something to be said about expensive spells that are highly impactful and that have strategic value rather than simply tactical value. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
I don't think a unit this expensive should essentially be a suicide unit, but I gotta give some credit to Blizzard here (after a long rant). The huge Warpprism pick-up range actually make this not a suicide-unit, but a really high-skill cap unit. If your good you can detonate and then have your WP postioned to pick it up afterwards. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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ETisME
12638 Posts
On April 03 2015 00:49 Hider wrote: Too an extent I know what you mean, but I think Blizzard also needs to complete rethink how spellcassters are designed. When I experiemnted with changes to spellcasters I realized that it indeed was annoying if you didn't land you skills reliably. So then I thought, why isn't this an issue in LOL? Answer: Because you have lower cooldowns on your abiliites/higher mana regen. But ofc if you just add lower CD/higher mana regen to spellcasters --> they are gonna feel more spamable in an RTS environemnt. That's true and it's why we should reconsider if spellcasters should be 2 supply. So from a general perspective, this is how spellcasters should be designed: - 100 max energy (from 200) - Higher energy regeneration - Higher supply cost/cost overall - Slower projectiles - Slow movement/lock-abilites imo doesn't feel good in an RTS (even if they have a bit of counterplay), so get rid of them and replace them with abilites that synergizes with your own units (like a modified version of Dark Swarm). FYI, why are there no line-skillshots in Sc2 Also, let's look at Guardian Shield: Sentry activates Guardian shield for + 2 armor .... .That's the end of that interaction. Now let's imagine this Guardan Shield thing was completely tweaked: - Lower radius - 30% damage reduction vs everything - Sentry Model size increased significantly. - Sentry HP reduced to 30/30 from 40/40 - Sentry DPS increased by 10-20% - Sentry movement speed increased to 2.75 See what the effect of this Sentry would be? The damage reduction effect is actually really strong now and combined with the lower HP, higher DPS and larger model size - Your really rewearded for target firing the sentry now. On the other hand, the Sentry is faster and more responsive now and can react to the focus fire by pulling away. But since the radius of this new Guardian Shield is very low, it cannot stay too far out of the battle for too long. Those it needs to be part of the engagement to function optimally, but only the best players can keep their Sentries alive consistently. The above is just an exmaple of how you could create a unique microinteraction to protoss that furthermore would buff the Sentry (probably needed now) and help with protoss balance. in LoL, timing the spells are far more important than spamming, until you reach the mid to late game with enough mana regen and some cdr items and your spells are safe to spam in long distance with short cool down like ezreal. Spamming spells in mid late game in general is only for zoning and poking and clearing minion push, in the actual engagement, the most critical skills must be landed, even more so than SC2. in SC2, it goes for the route that each spell casters can't spam a lot of spell, but you can build a lot of them so you will have enough available and even then, you have to make sure you have enough actual damage units. LoL is about no spamming in actual engagement, landing spell on right target that make or break your team battle. LoL is in an environment that you can start as a viking fighting against an ultra, eventually after level-ing and map control etc, you can help your total 5 men terran team to win against the zerg. SC2 is an environment where you should be having the right unit dealing the right amount of damage at the right time and so on. And for SC2, you only really have so much time for micro that you have to place priorities. Making one unit more important will simply mean less micro for another. Look at bio mine in TvZ, no terran has time to target fire the mines in an engagements because they need to split the bio. making your sentries that strong will only mean less blink stalkers (or some other micro protoss will be giving up) in the engagement. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On April 03 2015 01:27 Hider wrote: I gotta give some credit to Blizzard here (after a long rant). The huge Warpprism pick-up range actually make this not a suicide-unit, but a really high-skill cap unit. If your good you can detonate and then have your WP postioned to pick it up afterwards. I wonder how it would have worked if it was opposite. That is, its has a very fast base movement speed, and activating its ability slows it down. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
If not, i think it should tbh | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On April 03 2015 01:27 Hider wrote: I gotta give some credit to Blizzard here (after a long rant). The huge Warpprism pick-up range actually make this not a suicide-unit, but a really high-skill cap unit. If your good you can detonate and then have your WP postioned to pick it up afterwards. Yeah, but outside of this interaction the pick-up range seems broken. Kinda like medivacs with speed boost, where at first everyone will consider it ridiculous and then get used to it and marvel at Parting's awesome immortal harassment. But really, it will be not fun, because you can't stop it unless you build a viking. On April 03 2015 01:31 royalroadweed wrote: I wonder how it would have worked if it was opposite. That is, its has a very fast base movement speed, and activating its ability slows it down. It'll be useless and never hit anything? Units should be able to execute their basic functions (explode close to a target in this case), that's the starting point for design. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
Yeah, but outside of this interaction the pick-up range seems broken. Kinda like medivacs with speed boost, where at first everyone will consider it ridiculous and then get used to it and marvel at Parting's awesome immortal harassment. But really, it will be not fun, because you can't stop it unless you build a viking. Yeh true, but I went from thinking "this is the dumbest thing ever" to "maybe this would work better if it was included along with the Warp Prism speed upgrade. | ||
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JacobShock
Denmark2485 Posts
On April 03 2015 00:57 Teoita wrote: I dont think that would change much since you want roach speed for ravager/roach pushes anyway. It would take away the super quick 4:30 one/two base ravager timings, but do nothing for the unit in the long run. I am just saying its a start. The ravager shouldn't be hatch tech regardless, its just crazy. | ||
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