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my thoughts as a retired gm protoss are: im not a big fan of any of the new units tbh. i haven't used any of them but just watching the streams. ravager feels like it belongs in league of legends, adept is redundant imo, it doesn't do much different than a stalker imo. disruptor is dumb, it kills everything, the new terran unit is pretty ridiculous also.
what if the beta went a different route. you don't necessarily have to add units in order to balance a game. i think the game can benefit a lot from the removal of units and an over simplification of the game. take the sentry out, or remove ff and buff guardian shield and damage output etc, plenty of units in the game aren't necessary, tempest, swarm host.
i'm curious how the game would be if it was an exact replica of bw on a sc2 engine. often times people get too fancy and try to do too much. it took like 12 years for bw to become what it was. do you really need to go through another 12 years to get sc2 to that? if it ain't broke don't fix it.
another analogy would becall of duty 4. classic, arguably one of the best shooters of all time, definitely ahead of its time, it changed the game. now they have so much retarded crap in the game, all these kill streaks, attachments, the game just gets worse pretty much every time they release it.
edit:
the worker count is too high, it just feels forced, maybe try less workers? if you started with 8 workers you wouldn't even have to change the supply of each cc/nexus/overlord would you? and you would have a medium of immediate fast paced action and going through a thought process of what you're to do. scouting seems ridiculously hard with this.
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On April 03 2015 04:23 aBstractx wrote:
what if the beta went a different route. you don't necessarily have to add units in order to balance a game.
A little after HotS release, a dev said they were already at a very high number of units and would probably not be adding units in LotV, rather balancing the new ones or replacing old units, maybe adding new buildings. At that time, I had high hopes for the multiplayer because that gave me the sense they wanted to solve the issues the game would have instead of adding units for the sake of adding units and creating hypuuuuuuu.
In the end, it seems to me they're genuinely trying to solve the most blatant issues of the game -Blizzard intentions, good as always-, but in a very inelegant way and with so many additions that will create new problems they'll have to add bandaids over bandaids : it'll be such a mess we'll probably never achieve something great. LotV will probably be OK/good, but I don't foresee it being great. Which is sad, because if you look at WoL set of units, you could have tweaked it into something that would have stood the test of time, minus/plus one unit for each race at most.
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On April 03 2015 04:30 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 04:23 aBstractx wrote:
what if the beta went a different route. you don't necessarily have to add units in order to balance a game. A little after HotS release, a dev said they were already at a very high number of units and would probably not be adding units in LotV, rather balancing the new ones or replacing old units, maybe adding new buildings. At that time, I had high hopes for the multiplayer because that gave me the sense they wanted to solve the issues the game would have instead of adding units for the sake of adding units and creating hypuuuuuuu. In the end, it seems to me they're genuinely trying to solve the most blatant issues of the game -Blizzard intentions, good as always-, but in a very inelegant way and with so many additions that will create new problems they'll have to add bandaids over bandaids : it'll be such a mess we'll probably never achieve something great. LotV will probably be OK/good, but I don't foresee it being great. Which is sad, because if you look at WoL set of units, you could have tweaked it into something that would have stood the test of time, minus/plus one unit for each race at most.
basically. at some point does the community move back to vanilla sc2 or hots and just play it as it is? i grew up on starcraft bw but i never actually played bw. i was a bigger fan of vanilla, and i played fastest map possible on that. we had our own community, website, and league that was quite competitive.
the only thing that holds me back from being gm is the fact that i cant get myself to play the game. i'm not entirely sure the reason why, maybe it's just stale to me. I watch it all the time, but when it comes to playing i can't bring myself to it.
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I think that right now the Adept's role can be fitted best in:
-scouting: you can send his shade forward in order to make him move more quickly (since the shade is faster than the adept). Also you can use the shade to circumvent units, as long as they don't have enough dps to kill it before it teleports. This might be good in PvP where it's very hard to scout in the early game.
-proxy gateways/early pools : having bonus dmg vs light and lower gas cost than the stalker, it's definitely a good unit against this kind of cheese (which might not exist anymore though).
But it kind of looks like the WoL reaper. Very specific, useless past the first few minutes of the game. Needs a few buffs and it might become more interesting, like the HotS reaper.
Oh and other than that, I think it's pretty easy to stop ravager all ins if you open with a fast oracle and build up to 3-4 of them.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Idk, I think one thing BW economy has that SC2 doesn't is smooth transitioning between expansions - you can stay a lot of time on 1 base and still be efficient. Economies grow slowly in BW and bases saturate gradually and that leaves room for a lot of different economy playstyles. If anything, LotV not only does not remedy the situation, it makes it worse. Heck, you get full saturation minerals on your main in 4 workers from the start of the game now, from then on you're inefficient.
Frantic expansion is a poor solution to the game's economic problems that introduces more infrastructure management (which is not very fun to do or watch) without touching, for example, maxout problems. It has some lasting undesirable consequences such as, for example, SC2 becoming even more unfriendly to beginners. Expanding feels like one of the harder things to do in the macro department and idle worker management is extremely annoying, I definitely wouldn't want my hand forced there even more than now.
I'm sick of watching skyrocketing economies and 200/200 games, does LotV have the tools to get rid of that?
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So pretty much everyone agrees that the Ravager is a bit OP right now. And I'm actually kind of liking its fast attack speed, but its DPS against all targets is just way too high right now. Do you guys think it would be better with its attack changed to 8 + 8 armored, or 8 + 8 light?
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Mexico2170 Posts
With everything I've watched I've got the impression that...RIP Protoss xD
I frankly think they should Nerf the immortal more but make it way more masseable.
Although the problem.I see with that is that it could force to go robo every game because it would be necessary vs ravagers
I think they should actually then buff the stalker and th adept
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On April 03 2015 05:12 Pontius Pirate wrote:
So pretty much everyone agrees that the Ravager is a bit OP right now. And I'm actually kind of liking its fast attack speed, but its DPS against all targets is just way too high right now. Do you guys think it would be better with its attack changed to 8 + 8 armored, or 8 + 8 light?
You can always adjust numbers, but here Ravager's design is problematic... It overlaps way too much with Hydras and Roaches, it is literally one giant Hydra-Roach unit. They need to make them different from those units.
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On April 03 2015 05:12 Pontius Pirate wrote:
So pretty much everyone agrees that the Ravager is a bit OP right now. And I'm actually kind of liking its fast attack speed, but its DPS against all targets is just way too high right now. Do you guys think it would be better with its attack changed to 8 + 8 armored, or 8 + 8 light?
Yes change attack values up and give the skillshot the reverse damage values.
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On April 03 2015 05:12 Pontius Pirate wrote:
So pretty much everyone agrees that the Ravager is a bit OP right now. And I'm actually kind of liking its fast attack speed, but its DPS against all targets is just way too high right now. Do you guys think it would be better with its attack changed to 8 + 8 armored, or 8 + 8 light?
pretty much all the new units are OP right now. blizzard is doing that intentionally. make all the new units OP so people try them out and you can see what they are adding to the game.
Designwise i like most of the new unit except the disruptor and maybe the lurker. Especially cyclones and ravager really feel like something their races needed.
I hate the economy changes but at this point i sadly doubt that blizzard will revert them.
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I don't see how ravagers were needed at all.
A way to deal with forcefields? Yes
Ravagers? No
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You are absolutely dreaming if you think a blizzard expansion would ever reduce the number of units in the game or even leave it identical. RTS expansions have been justified by new multiplayer units since forever. Whichever Blizz person said that "they might not add units in LOTV" in public . . . well I'd like some of what he was smoking. I'd bet someone ripped him a new one for setting that bad expectation with the community. Also if you think the game will reach retail in the currently poor balance state . . . I mean the beta is like 2-3 days old. Chill out.
The community will never move backward en masse to play another variety of the game either. This game's community is driven by the pro scene and aspiring to be like the pro players, who will 100% be playing exclusively LOTV. You might have a splinter community of extreme grognards who decide they can't stand x y or z, but that's it.
Make the best of this time in beta and give Blizz as much constructive feedback as you can . . . wishing for this extreme blue-sky scenario where the devs make your wishlist of massive changes is pointless. If they were going to listen to that type of thing, there's a huge list of stupid bullshit that would have been changed ages ago (Sentries, Swarm Hosts, Warp Gates, high-ground vision, etc.).
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Canada8157 Posts
Looks like they weren't kidding when they said they'd take down the beta 24 hours later
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On April 03 2015 05:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't see how ravagers were needed at all.
A way to deal with forcefields? Yes
Ravagers? No
With their size, couldn't ravagers just be massive units with more HP than the roach and roughly same DPS ? They would in the end fulfill the same role but that mortar ability that honestly feels like a spammable and not very tactical MOBA ripoff would be gone.
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On April 03 2015 05:44 theqat wrote:
You are absolutely dreaming if you think a blizzard expansion would ever reduce the number of units in the game or even leave it identical. RTS expansions have been justified by new multiplayer units since forever. Whichever Blizz person said that "they might not add units in LOTV" in public . . . well I'd like some of what he was smoking. I'd bet someone ripped him a new one for setting that bad expectation with the community.
http://www.pcgamer.com/starcraft-2-legacy-of-the-void-could-have-less-units-than-heart-of-the-swarm/
It's obviously quite old, but that was the general idea at some point.
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On April 03 2015 05:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't see how ravagers were needed at all.
A way to deal with forcefields? Yes
Ravagers? No
-adds firepower to the roach hydra composition which makes it more viable in the later stages of the game
-a way to deal with forcefields without making forcefiels completely useless
-improves zerg AA
-rewards good micro (from both players)
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On April 03 2015 05:39 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 05:12 Pontius Pirate wrote:
So pretty much everyone agrees that the Ravager is a bit OP right now. And I'm actually kind of liking its fast attack speed, but its DPS against all targets is just way too high right now. Do you guys think it would be better with its attack changed to 8 + 8 armored, or 8 + 8 light? pretty much all the new units are OP right now. blizzard is doing that intentionally. make all the new units OP so people try them out and you can see what they are adding to the game. Designwise i like most of the new unit except the disruptor and maybe the lurker. Especially cyclones and ravager really feel like something their races needed. I hate the economy changes but at this point i sadly doubt that blizzard will revert them.
I don't think lurkers and adpets are broken though.
Cyclones, yeah they are pretty strong and I'm not a big fan of the "infinite kite you can't do shit about it" design, but just from a balancestandpoint I'd rather have blizzard power up Protoss early game against them then nerf them too much at this point. They aren't that dominant in the other matchups beyond early game I think and they are quite expensive early. And Protoss needs something anyways now.
I think disruptor (+prism), ravager and tank drops are the big ones to be watched at the moment. And ultras, they are silly against marines and zerglings and I don't understand why they did the marauder nerf and the ultra buff at once, since those are pure balance changes this is not for design reasons. it's just a big "fuck you bio". Not that I complain about Terran having to transition a bit more, but it feels like blizzard doesn't understand their own engine. Marines going from 3-->1 damage against them, and marauders from 20-->10 (assumption, not sure how the new upgrades work) is just stupid...
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On April 03 2015 05:54 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 05:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't see how ravagers were needed at all.
A way to deal with forcefields? Yes
Ravagers? No -adds firepower to the roach hydra composition which makes it more viable in the later stages of the game -a way to deal with forcefields without making forcefiels completely useless -improves zerg AA -rewards good micro (from both players)
- Hydras are the dmg dealers in hydra roach
- i agreed that the forcefield interaction is reasonable, funnily enough i didn't see a single zerg using the ravager that way
- not really though, the spell should never hit a air unit
- the spell is spamable atm, the only good micro it promotes is for the enemy (and even then, right now you have to dodge the spell so often it isn't all that rewarding)
The unit is absolutely bs and extremely uninspired as well.
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Canada8157 Posts
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Sick! So time to migrate to a "Patch 2"-thread? :D
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EPT
