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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 02 2014 01:38 SuperYo1000 wrote: .......man.....I was hoping proxy banshee would never come back to pvt....so now I guess i have to open robo everytime now oracle? I think it is already the goto for many professionals to open Stargate-->Oracle-->phoenix vs Banshee. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On December 02 2014 01:59 Big J wrote: oracle? I think it is already the goto for many professionals to open Stargate-->Oracle-->phoenix vs Banshee. I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Banshees are already very strong in TvT and TvZ, and can work in TvP really well. The problematic there in TvP is mainly Photon Cannon as it prevents aggresion for a minute, which is usually enough to let your tech structure finish and get some detection. With +1 range the banshee would already have a great micro potential in all matchups. Even if it's fairly common to go Stargate as a protoss, just take in account that: 1- The typical oracle will be at the enemy base most of the time, so it is fairly possible that you don't have detection available if a banshee hits. Without detection, phoenix and stalkers do nothing against them. 2 - By the time it hits, is very likely that the terran has enough units to defend the oracle, while the protoss may have 2 stalkers and maybe a MSC. If the banshee gets some free shots on the stalkers, it will destroy both. 3 - Oracles are going to have envision removed, so protoss aren't going to have passive detection on the oracle. Revelation is a skill shot and costs more (75) than envision, so a second banshee is potentially destructive. If you have attacked with oracle, you are likely to be too low on energy. 4- If you have managed to build 2 oracles before the banshee hits (1 attacking, 1 defending) energy timings need to be really accurate if you want to have a successful defense. Unit interactions are quite tight in SC2. There is many things to take in account if we have to argue about a buff like this one.If hydralisks were hatchery tech and envision moved to the Mothership core, I have no problem with banshees having cloak by default and +1 range. If not, not going for a 1/1/1 would be a no-brainer. Triple banshee for the rekt. I would prefer banshees having the Warhound missile ability (also affecting buildings) for 50 energy to give them more strength in TvP and giving some possibilities to TvT biomech than the Blizzard rework. Speed upgrade is completely fine, is something that it was needed for the terran air, some high speed air fighter. A change that has to be done (as a protoss I say it) it's the Photon overcharge dynamic. Cheaper, shorter. Emergency panic defense to reinforce and maybe pick some bad microed units that are poking the base. Not a 60s "immunity". | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2657 Posts
On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote: I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Banshees are already very strong in TvT and TvZ, and can work in TvP really well. The problematic there in TvP is mainly Photon Cannon as it prevents aggresion for a minute, which is usually enough to let your tech structure finish and get some detection. With +1 range the banshee would already have a great micro potential in all matchups. Even if it's fairly common to go Stargate as a protoss, just take in account that: 1- The typical oracle will be at the enemy base most of the time, so it is fairly possible that you don't have detection available if a banshee hits. Without detection, phoenix and stalkers do nothing against them. 2 - By the time it hits, is very likely that the terran has enough units to defend the oracle, while the protoss may have 2 stalkers and maybe a MSC. If the banshee gets some free shots on the stalkers, it will destroy both. 3 - Oracles are going to have envision removed, so protoss aren't going to have passive detection on the oracle. Revelation is a skill shot and costs more (75) than envision, so a second banshee is potentially destructive. If you have attacked with oracle, you are likely to be too low on energy. 4- If you have managed to build 2 oracles before the banshee hits (1 attacking, 1 defending) energy timings need to be really accurate if you want to have a successful defense. Unit interactions are quite tight in SC2. There is many things to take in account if we have to argue about a buff like this one.If hydralisks were hatchery tech and envision moved to the Mothership core, I have no problem with banshees having cloak by default and +1 range. If not, not going for a 1/1/1 would be a no-brainer. Triple banshee for the rekt. I would prefer banshees having the Warhound missile ability (also affecting buildings) for 50 energy to give them more strength in TvP and giving some possibilities to TvT biomech than the Blizzard rework. Speed upgrade is completely fine, is something that it was needed for the terran air, some high speed air fighter. A change that has to be done (as a protoss I say it) it's the Photon overcharge dynamic. Cheaper, shorter. Emergency panic defense to reinforce and maybe pick some bad microed units that are poking the base. Not a 60s "immunity". 1.- About free detection, 100 gas banshee already broke the TvT MU, free cloack is just ridiculous. 2.- NO, the only reason terrans have enough units some times (maybe most but not all) is because builds are made that way you either open with a lot of marines or die thus making the options very reduced or risky if done, if you open fast banshee theres no way you will have enough marines in time for an oracle let a alone 2 3.- banshee take longer to build than oracles because of chrono boost and are much faster, if you have 2 banshees in the enemy base the protoss will already have a lot of stuff including 2 (if not 3 oracles or 2 and phoenix) oracles, also a banshee can kill 1 stalker but it will be left with very low health 4.- Yes maybe but thats not different with postioning your marines and WM to defend an oracle Overall I don't like the free cloack, not sure about the range, but I like that they are buffing them, different to what you say banshees are actually pretty awful in TvP | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote: I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Banshees are already very strong in TvT and TvZ, and can work in TvP really well. The problematic there in TvP is mainly Photon Cannon as it prevents aggresion for a minute, which is usually enough to let your tech structure finish and get some detection. With +1 range the banshee would already have a great micro potential in all matchups. Even if it's fairly common to go Stargate as a protoss, just take in account that: 1- The typical oracle will be at the enemy base most of the time, so it is fairly possible that you don't have detection available if a banshee hits. Without detection, phoenix and stalkers do nothing against them. 2 - By the time it hits, is very likely that the terran has enough units to defend the oracle, while the protoss may have 2 stalkers and maybe a MSC. If the banshee gets some free shots on the stalkers, it will destroy both. 3 - Oracles are going to have envision removed, so protoss aren't going to have passive detection on the oracle. Revelation is a skill shot and costs more (75) than envision, so a second banshee is potentially destructive. If you have attacked with oracle, you are likely to be too low on energy. 4- If you have managed to build 2 oracles before the banshee hits (1 attacking, 1 defending) energy timings need to be really accurate if you want to have a successful defense. Unit interactions are quite tight in SC2. There is many things to take in account if we have to argue about a buff like this one.If hydralisks were hatchery tech and envision moved to the Mothership core, I have no problem with banshees having cloak by default and +1 range. If not, not going for a 1/1/1 would be a no-brainer. Triple banshee for the rekt. I would prefer banshees having the Warhound missile ability (also affecting buildings) for 50 energy to give them more strength in TvP and giving some possibilities to TvT biomech than the Blizzard rework. Speed upgrade is completely fine, is something that it was needed for the terran air, some high speed air fighter. A change that has to be done (as a protoss I say it) it's the Photon overcharge dynamic. Cheaper, shorter. Emergency panic defense to reinforce and maybe pick some bad microed units that are poking the base. Not a 60s "immunity". That depends a lot on the timings of the units which we can't say too much about because we don't know how exactly BOs can look like with the changed ecnomoy. But the current situation is that a proxy oracle reaches the Terrans base before the first banshee of a gas first opening is halfway done. You can start your second stargate unit with the first starport unit of a terran in that scenario. If you were too lazy to scout the gas first opening which already gives away that you need detection (mine drop or banshee) you will now see it with the oracle and can return home to your base. Even a proxied banshee can't really do a lot now, because your phoenix+oracle will be home in time as well as a stalker. If you turn of the pulsar canon instead you made a mistake and got punished, that is your own fault. If you needed it you could have a second oracle when the second banshee arives. Since in LotV the Oracle has an amazing spell for combat/delay usage in form of the stasis ward it won't even be a real waste to have 2oracles in the longrun. The banshee might still be really good, but I don't expect it to even have half of the impact that Oracles have on current Terran builds unless the timing relations also change. For TvT this is a completely different story... | ||
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marine63
43 Posts
Carrier - "Moves quicker. 90sec build time. Can release interceptors all instantly and keep fighting even if carrier dies." Link | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On December 02 2014 03:30 marine63 wrote: Was the Carrier build time also decreased? I thought someone said the carrier build time was down from 120 to 90 sec Carrier - "Moves quicker. 90sec build time. Can release interceptors all instantly and keep fighting even if carrier dies." Link As I remember, Tempest now moves quicker. Carrier got only release interceptor and decreased build time. 90 second build-time carrier is already in the mod. Feel free to test | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On December 02 2014 03:44 Existor wrote: As I remember, Tempest now moves quicker. Carrier got only release interceptor and decreased build time. 90 second build-time carrier is already in the mod. Feel free to test If they don't improve the micro, that change is not going to be really THAT important. Just look at what Ahli (one of the Starbow main modders) has done to the carrier. He has polished it a lot, over and over, doing workarounds to allow retarget, internal repairing with behaviours/validators, smart control (auto retreat), following mechanics with interceptors being deployed, realistic interceptor launch (not linear) and more things that he is still working into. It's about time they rework the micro of that unit too. | ||
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Ctone23
United States1841 Posts
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On December 02 2014 06:35 Ctone23 wrote: I'm having trouble downloading/getting into a lobby. Hopefully that means a lot of people are trying it out! If not I hope it works soon! EU Servers seem to download better. NA ones get hung up. Switch over and it should work out better for you | ||
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duckk
United States622 Posts
Banshees are a bit silly with cloak and range that will be reduced in some way for sure ravagers should have an added cooldown to their ability or something(48-6 vs topp 100 kr gm terrans 38-1 vs na gm terrans) every single game a walkover because of the ravager. The only losses occured because my macro is awful. Would like to see the lurker den morph time or range changed in some way. Have yet to really play vs protoss, but the disruptor seems kind of dumb, need more games to test i guess. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On December 02 2014 03:28 Big J wrote: That depends a lot on the timings of the units which we can't say too much about because we don't know how exactly BOs can look like with the changed ecnomoy. But the current situation is that a proxy oracle reaches the Terrans base before the first banshee of a gas first opening is halfway done. You can start your second stargate unit with the first starport unit of a terran in that scenario. If you were too lazy to scout the gas first opening which already gives away that you need detection (mine drop or banshee) you will now see it with the oracle and can return home to your base. Even a proxied banshee can't really do a lot now, because your phoenix+oracle will be home in time as well as a stalker. If you turn of the pulsar canon instead you made a mistake and got punished, that is your own fault. If you needed it you could have a second oracle when the second banshee arives. Since in LotV the Oracle has an amazing spell for combat/delay usage in form of the stasis ward it won't even be a real waste to have 2oracles in the longrun. The banshee might still be really good, but I don't expect it to even have half of the impact that Oracles have on current Terran builds unless the timing relations also change. For TvT this is a completely different story... Yep, as you say, it's all about timings. We'll have to see economy. However, if we make building times math, timings could be nearly the same. The triple building time (when rushing it) is 180s + unit building time is very close (65+55+60 for protoss+50s (+chronoboost) for oracle, and 65+60+50+60 for terran). And oracles have to recharge 25 energy for revelation (additional 45 seconds). I think that a good point is viability rather than direct countering (eliminating early oracle). Also take in account that we are going to see gas heavy builds because of Hercs and maybe Cyclones (they are both gas expensive) so it's not like it is going to be that easy (for any race) at all with the range, the micro possibilities, its native DPS and now cloak. In HotS, we know easily that 1/1/1 is coming. In LotV, with more gas heavy units, it's not likely we are knowing this so easily. What worries me is that in TvP, it punishes Gateway openers completely and somehow Robo openers too. It is also very dangerous in TvZ and a world in TvT. I think that the banshee change has to be thought and reviewed once economy is reworked and confirmed, and then study it from that point, which is basically the point we have in common. BTW I don't like the new economy, something which makes 2nd worker mine less efficiently and 3rd mining much less is something I prefer, maybe with slightly faster mining times/ reworked microtimings on gathering times. Also I would like to have this applied to gas too, but maybe I'm asking too much. Making bases should be a little bit more rewarding. It probably would need base building times reworked, too (because of hatches mainly). | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On December 02 2014 06:51 duckk wrote: hercs honestly are terrible units and dont 1 shot lings or drones and will NEVER kill a unit vs a good player Banshees are a bit silly with cloak and range that will be reduced in some way for sure ravagers should have an added cooldown to their ability or something(48-6 vs topp 100 kr gm terrans 38-1 vs na gm terrans) every single game a walkover because of the ravager. The only losses occured because my macro is awful. Would like to see the lurker den morph time or range changed in some way. Have yet to really play vs protoss, but the disruptor seems kind of dumb, need more games to test i guess. Hercs are meant to be supports, not mega destroyers for lings. That's the role of the hellbat. Hercs are designed to mess with banelings lines/zerg micro making the terran less reliant on mines and adding some micro. But the idea of giving it a big damage with splash and meele range basically makes it a gas/charge hellbat. Sure they can improve things about that and make it a distinctive unit. Also its damage ouput is nothing to be neglected in the early game, as they are supports but also harrasers. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
ep, as you say, it's all about timings. We'll have to see economy. However, if we make building times math, timings could be nearly the same. The triple building time (when rushing it) is 180s + unit building time is very close (65+55+60 for protoss+50s (+chronoboost) for oracle, and 65+60+50+60 for terran). And oracles have to recharge 25 energy for revelation (additional 45 seconds). I think that a good point is viability rather than direct countering (eliminating early oracle). The difference though is that the factory costs 100gas and the Cybercore 0. Which is why just looking at the build time doesn't work out, because a Terran cannot build a standard 12rax and then add the factory immidiatly, while the Protoss can start the Cybercore the moment the Gateway finishes. The only way to circumvent that is by going gas first as Terran, which then still delays the barracks quite a bit. Which is why an oracle will be done when the banshee just starts as I said. The economy changes will play a huge role - and from my testings everything but a fast expand is a bad build in LotV so far, because you start the game with enough workers to afford anything that doesn't need tech, but not enough tech to fast attack (you start the game like you are 1:30 in the game economywise, but technologically you are at 0:00 because you have no supply depot/pylon yet). I think something like 1-1-1 will absolutly get stomped by a Nexus first into 1gate+robo, so the moment your 12scout (you can scout at 0:00 with no real drawbacks, as Protoss you can even harass the SCVs) and see anything that could lead to a 1-1-1 (like agasbuild without reaper) you should just be able to put down the robo and comfortably take a victory. The only way to make early aggression possible is buffs to it like the banshee buffs imo. | ||
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b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On December 02 2014 10:46 b0ub0u wrote: I cannot find the game in the SC2 custom games. How do I look for it. You can find it in Arcade. In Custom games you can use it via Extension mods (Create with mod) | ||
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b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
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SidianTheBard
United States2475 Posts
On December 02 2014 08:35 royalroadweed wrote: Kas vs qxc showmatch was pretty good. Played mainly like wol TvT marine tank, only with cyclones to deal with banshees. Any youtube links? I'd be curious to take a look. Also, are there any good youtubers that have a ton of games played so we could check out all the different race combinations? I know Desrow has a few up, saw the Husky one, I know basetrade did some but I couldn't find them on youtube. | ||
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b0ub0u
Canada445 Posts
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