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On December 02 2014 10:51 SidianTheBard wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 08:35 royalroadweed wrote:
Kas vs qxc showmatch was pretty good. Played mainly like wol TvT marine tank, only with cyclones to deal with banshees. Any youtube links? I'd be curious to take a look. Also, are there any good youtubers that have a ton of games played so we could check out all the different race combinations? I know Desrow has a few up, saw the Husky one, I know basetrade did some but I couldn't find them on youtube.
I'd love to double up on my LotV content. If you guys have any requests/ideas please let me know <3 The dreampool is more than boring right now hah
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I don't get why everybody is saying Herc's suck, they pretty good vs protoss. Really scary early game because they're fucking fast and if they get close to your mineral line you're in deep shit with them two shotting all your probes (guess I shouldn't FE so much lol).
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United States8301 Posts
On December 02 2014 11:06 b0ub0u wrote:I can't download any of them they all stuck at like 20% 
Problems with NA server. You have to log on to Europe to download the maps.
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On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 01:59 Big J wrote:On December 02 2014 01:38 SuperYo1000 wrote:
.......man.....I was hoping proxy banshee would never come back to pvt....so now I guess i have to open robo everytime now oracle? I think it is already the goto for many professionals to open Stargate-->Oracle-->phoenix vs Banshee. I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Have you played any matchup in LotV yet? Have pro players did so?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote:
I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup.
Disagree.
Protoss: open stargate to counter banshees. oracle can reveal cloaked banshees for some time. And you have phoenixes / stalkers.
Zerg: ravager, queens, merged hydralisk upgrades.
Terran: widow mines, cyclones, thors, marines.
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On December 03 2014 01:39 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote:
I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Disagree. Protoss: open stargate to counter banshees. oracle can reveal cloaked banshees for some time. And you have phoenixes / stalkers. Zerg: ravager, queens, merged hydralisk upgrades. Terran: widow mines, cyclones, thors, marines.
Timings & detection is the problem
BTW, so you are saying that if Terran goes for gas = Stargate opener? Gateway openers are dead if terran goes gas then.
Also take in account that with new revelation, protoss has only access to a reveal once every 2 minutes, so defense against successive banshees would make things tighter. Oracle cost is quite high, Stalkers are not that cheap and not that massable in the early game. Protoss AA early game is no way as powerful as other races, mainly because the units and turrets can't be emergency repaired. That's another reason that makes their turret (cannon) much weaker than Zerg's or Terran's.
Now banshees are already strong openers, but really easy to scout. But problably in LotV it won't be so easy as Terran has more gas units and vs a terran you can't count pylons to know is something is being proxied, neither press a button to reveal enemy base or cloaked units. And this applies to Zerg and Toss scouting.
As I said yesterday (see post), this banshee change should be reviewed once the economy is changed, so we can study timings. If ordinary builds allows all races to have a relatively easy time defending cloak banshees, there should be no problem. If not, maybe the advantage should be reviewed.
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banshee harass is so boring. Fly in, attack then fly out. Thats the interaction the banshee make.
Ultra boring if its necessary to go phoenix for protoss, mutas for zerg and vikings for terran to deal with this.
The way the unit adds to the armee is also usually lame.
Compare to a drop harass which has positional units involved. Lurkers, siegetanks, mines and more stuff such as the new statis and so on. Alot more fun to watch.
Even more normal units such as marauders/marines in dropships are alot more interesting. Hope in lotv it will be more interesting cuz of easier ways for other to micro and also overall more strategy involved for all races.
Mutas are better here over the banshee since the synergy with zerglings feels tactical and the unit is more "combat oriented", meaning it doesnt always have to run against everything.
Even the oracle is more interesting since its energy that needs to be used and the utlity the unit provides to the armee is unique and different. In lotv i assume the unit will provide utility to the protoss units/armee and doesnt limit terran builds/strategy against the unit.
Not sure why blizzard insists so much with the banshee. Maybe mech will be a thing and adding banshees can be cool, so maybe it will be a cool unit overall but as of right now it feels super lame to focus on this unit so much.
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On December 03 2014 02:51 Foxxan wrote:
banshee harass is so boring. Fly in, attack then fly out. Thats the interaction the banshee make.
Ultra boring if its necessary to go phoenix for protoss, mutas for zerg and vikings for terran to deal with this.
The way the unit adds to the armee is also usually lame.
Compare to a drop harass which has positional units involved. Lurkers, siegetanks, mines and more stuff such as the new statis and so on. Alot more fun to watch.
Even more normal units such as marauders/marines in dropships are alot more interesting. Hope in lotv it will be more interesting cuz of easier ways for other to micro and also overall more strategy involved for all races.
Mutas are better here over the banshee since the synergy with zerglings feels tactical and the unit is more "combat oriented", meaning it doesnt always have to run against everything.
Even the oracle is more interesting since its energy that needs to be used and the utlity the unit provides to the armee is unique and different. In lotv i assume the unit will provide utility to the protoss units/armee and doesnt limit terran builds/strategy against the unit.
Not sure why blizzard insists so much with the banshee. Maybe mech will be a thing and adding banshees can be cool, so maybe it will be a cool unit overall but as of right now it feels super lame to focus on this unit so much.
Well, the speed upgrade is something to add use in latergame. Banhsees have potential to be more than harassers and claim a role in mech play as decent AG fighters. I think that they focus more on that other than making it a superopener.
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On December 03 2014 02:25 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2014 01:39 Existor wrote:On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote:
I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Disagree. Protoss: open stargate to counter banshees. oracle can reveal cloaked banshees for some time. And you have phoenixes / stalkers. Zerg: ravager, queens, merged hydralisk upgrades. Terran: widow mines, cyclones, thors, marines. Timings & detection is the problem
That is very true, with HotS the timing of anti air and detection was buffed by a huge margin for Zerg and Protoss. So the change comes an expansion to late. Especially the range increase.
TvT will be more of an Issue, since you just have to build a banshee and you will hurt the mineral eco. It is basically like a DT now, that actually opens up tech. Protoss might have problems if Photon Overcharge stays ground only, but I currently see no reason to not go Stargate against Terran. As for Zerg HotS Spore change was way to much, time they get scared of the sky again.
The only thing thats scary, you don't know if its a cloak Banshee or a Raven.
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On December 03 2014 05:26 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2014 02:25 JCoto wrote:On December 03 2014 01:39 Existor wrote:On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote:
I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Disagree. Protoss: open stargate to counter banshees. oracle can reveal cloaked banshees for some time. And you have phoenixes / stalkers. Zerg: ravager, queens, merged hydralisk upgrades. Terran: widow mines, cyclones, thors, marines. Timings & detection is the problem That is very true, with HotS the timing of anti air and detection was buffed by a huge margin for Zerg and Protoss. So the change comes an expansion to late. Especially the range increase. TvT will be more of an Issue, since you just have to build a banshee and you will hurt the mineral eco. It is basically like a DT now, that actually opens up tech. Protoss might have problems if Photon Overcharge stays ground only, but I currently see no reason to not go Stargate against Terran. As for Zerg HotS Spore change was way to much, time they get scared of the sky again. The only thing thats scary, you don't know if its a cloak Banshee or a Raven.
I dont really understand what you mean....Protoss should be confined to 1 tech tree openers? no thanks
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We are going to shake the map-pool a little bit in the next patch. Nothing too extreme , im sure you wont regret the changes.
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On December 03 2014 02:25 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2014 01:39 Existor wrote:On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote:
I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Disagree. Protoss: open stargate to counter banshees. oracle can reveal cloaked banshees for some time. And you have phoenixes / stalkers. Zerg: ravager, queens, merged hydralisk upgrades. Terran: widow mines, cyclones, thors, marines. Timings & detection is the problemBTW, so you are saying that if Terran goes for gas = Stargate opener? Gateway openers are dead if terran goes gas then. Also take in account that with new revelation, protoss has only access to a reveal once every 2 minutes, so defense against successive banshees would make things tighter. Oracle cost is quite high, Stalkers are not that cheap and not that massable in the early game. Protoss AA early game is no way as powerful as other races, mainly because the units and turrets can't be emergency repaired. That's another reason that makes their turret (cannon) much weaker than Zerg's or Terran's. Now banshees are already strong openers, but really easy to scout. But problably in LotV it won't be so easy as Terran has more gas units and vs a terran you can't count pylons to know is something is being proxied, neither press a button to reveal enemy base or cloaked units. And this applies to Zerg and Toss scouting. As I said yesterday (see post), this banshee change should be reviewed once the economy is changed, so we can study timings. If ordinary builds allows all races to have a relatively easy time defending cloak banshees, there should be no problem. If not, maybe the advantage should be reviewed.
I don't understand this post :|, yes bansee should be reviewed, but not only banshees, everything should be reviewed since we don't really know how this would play out, I thing overall your opinions are not well focused, we should focus on design and how the new things work, instead of timings and viability of strategies, as you should know everything is most likely already different in Blizzards testing to what we have at the mods, so talking about timings and openers is kinda silly, the stats can be reworked. You should focus on the concept more, what do you like or dislike about the banshee as it is, instead of saying how it will affect builds and timings that don't even exist yet.
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On December 03 2014 01:39 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote:
I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Disagree. Protoss: open stargate to counter banshees. oracle can reveal cloaked banshees for some time. And you have phoenixes / stalkers. Zerg: ravager, queens, merged hydralisk upgrades. Terran: widow mines, cyclones, thors, marines.
Ravagers to counter cloacked super fast banshee ? This can't be serious..
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On December 03 2014 02:51 Foxxan wrote:
Not sure why blizzard insists so much with the banshee. Maybe mech will be a thing and adding banshees can be cool, so maybe it will be a cool unit overall but as of right now it feels super lame to focus on this unit so much.
Lol did you watch ForGG vs Life g3? Or any other mech vs SH game, honestly, but that one was the epitome of its funness.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On December 03 2014 07:08 sM.Zik wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2014 01:39 Existor wrote:On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote:
I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Disagree. Protoss: open stargate to counter banshees. oracle can reveal cloaked banshees for some time. And you have phoenixes / stalkers. Zerg: ravager, queens, merged hydralisk upgrades. Terran: widow mines, cyclones, thors, marines. Ravagers to counter cloacked super fast banshee ? This can't be serious..
Ravagers are hatchery-tech, speedshees are fusion-tech. See difference?
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I couldn't get this mod to load for the life of me last night. I spent probably about 30 minutes downloading an 8MB file (supposedly (I have 100MB/s up/down)) and another 30 minutes "Entering Lobby" before closing SC2 down. Maybe the maintenance fixed it today.
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On December 03 2014 05:57 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2014 02:25 JCoto wrote:On December 03 2014 01:39 Existor wrote:On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote:
I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Disagree. Protoss: open stargate to counter banshees. oracle can reveal cloaked banshees for some time. And you have phoenixes / stalkers. Zerg: ravager, queens, merged hydralisk upgrades. Terran: widow mines, cyclones, thors, marines. Timings & detection is the problemBTW, so you are saying that if Terran goes for gas = Stargate opener? Gateway openers are dead if terran goes gas then. Also take in account that with new revelation, protoss has only access to a reveal once every 2 minutes, so defense against successive banshees would make things tighter. Oracle cost is quite high, Stalkers are not that cheap and not that massable in the early game. Protoss AA early game is no way as powerful as other races, mainly because the units and turrets can't be emergency repaired. That's another reason that makes their turret (cannon) much weaker than Zerg's or Terran's. Now banshees are already strong openers, but really easy to scout. But problably in LotV it won't be so easy as Terran has more gas units and vs a terran you can't count pylons to know is something is being proxied, neither press a button to reveal enemy base or cloaked units. And this applies to Zerg and Toss scouting. As I said yesterday (see post), this banshee change should be reviewed once the economy is changed, so we can study timings. If ordinary builds allows all races to have a relatively easy time defending cloak banshees, there should be no problem. If not, maybe the advantage should be reviewed. I don't understand this post :|, yes bansee should be reviewed, but not only banshees, everything should be reviewed since we don't really know how this would play out, I thing overall your opinions are not well focused, we should focus on design and how the new things work, instead of timings and viability of strategies, as you should know everything is most likely already different in Blizzards testing to what we have at the mods, so talking about timings and openers is kinda silly, the stats can be reworked. You should focus on the concept more, what do you like or dislike about the banshee as it is, instead of saying how it will affect builds and timings that don't even exist yet.
We are discussing about timings because the proposed redesing of the banshee is directly related with that. Some ideas are good, but we have to think how strong they can be by the time they would appear (Translated: the strenght of them being rushed). An idea that affects lategame is not as capital as something that hurts openers, because it is probably something that is going to define the metagame and flexibility. It's like mines and templar openings. Bonus damage vs shields and bang, strategy unviable. Just think of Photon Overcharge. Why whas it added? Because early pushes/rushes against protoss expansions were really strong due to the low mobility/production the race has in the early game.
The stronger something is in the early game, the more it can punish the game, because it reduces the flexibility of the meta. You won't make a unit like the DTwith some bonus stat (like + speed) requiring twilight council only, right? Because it could be really interesting to make it more common and usable in midgame, but it would be a devastating opener. We are reworking the game to be flexible and fun, not rush friendly. That's the point of the discussion. Time and strenght are two values that are closely related: this is an RTS.
What I was talking about is that a unit like the banshee with its buffed capabilities is something that has to be studied after the economy rework. Economy is the first thing that should be clarified before any buff to something that can be early on the field, because if we look at our actual references, it doesn't look very flexibility-friendly .
Okay, and now let's focus on design/ concept. What new mechanics are we introducing?
- Bonus speed for later game. Adds utility, micro possibilities, skirimishing capability in later game.
- Default cloak. Makes the unit cheaper (we don't pay for the bonus utility) and the unit is able to evade damage and forces the need of detection earlier. Adds the earlier need of an extra mechanism to be countered. By default, countering it would be harder.
We have to think that if ability upgrades exist is because they create progression and improve units over time. Think for exemple in the Widow mine upgrade, which is quite simple or "stupid" but so important.
- Bonus range. Makes the unit easier to micro, stronger against ground units that can counter them.
So behind the banshee change, there is almost no revolutionary concept other than lategame speed to make them more capable in fights, which is a weak spot that diserved to be covered and grants more utility throught the game - It adds progression value. The rest is a buff to its actual state that doesn't really change a lot the use of the unit other than making it harder to counter and a bit cheaper, AKA stronger. It's not a real "rework". Of course they will anounce and test some new ideas for it, but what we've got now is that.
Again, I want to clarify that I'm not against the change, because we'll have to wait for a defined economy model to think about the impact and rush value of things. But I wanted to point that yes, times matter, because they also define the strength of a unit. Design not only involves theorical design, but also real application. If we have the idea of buffing a unit that it's already quite strong, we should also think how this could affect real game.
Now returning to theorical "design concepts", the banshee is already a good unit, but lacks of some capabilities in later game and specially in TvP to use it as an efficient skirmisher/AG fighter. I think that if we walk around the concept of the banshee, we should think about something that adds viability and makes it more accessible/viable to participate in fights and diversificate compositions. Things like changing supply to 2, reducing build time, a mechanic that allows them being reactored in lategame, a new damage spell... Things that favor flexibility and dynamism over strength. New capabilities or scenarios. New uses.
Weren't we looking for more intensive micro, refined interactions and flexibility?
I think that we should aim for flexibility and fun in LotV, making the game less rigid and strict (which is not the same as demanding). And thus I dislike everything that could be too rush-friendly/timing-friendly. I also think that oracles should have slightly higher energy consumption with the beam on to reduce a bit its aggresive use early, or reducing damage in exchange for more shields. And I also think that it coud be a reasonable time to introduce the Medium armor and rework some unit interactions.
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Is it just me or does Corrosive Bile (the Ravager shot) seem much larger than what we saw in the Blizzcon showmatches? Seems utterly OP in the BaseTrade showmatches, but in the Blizzcon it seemed that even the Dong couldn't hit anything for beans.
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On December 03 2014 14:54 wcLLg wrote:
Is it just me or does Corrosive Bile (the Ravager shot) seem much larger than what we saw in the Blizzcon showmatches? Seems utterly OP in the BaseTrade showmatches, but in the Blizzcon it seemed that even the Dong couldn't hit anything for beans.
To be fair it was 2 players controlling 1 race, so very easy to dodge (one doesn't have to worry about macro at all). Another is no offense, but these players that are playing aren't the best either 
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On December 03 2014 08:24 Mistakes wrote:
I couldn't get this mod to load for the life of me last night. I spent probably about 30 minutes downloading an 8MB file (supposedly (I have 100MB/s up/down)) and another 30 minutes "Entering Lobby" before closing SC2 down. Maybe the maintenance fixed it today.
Hey buddy, try downloading it on the European or Korean servers and then going back to the American server. After it's downloaded it should plug and enter the lobby correctly.
btw your name is so ironic right now x_x
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