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On December 03 2014 11:23 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2014 05:57 Lexender wrote:On December 03 2014 02:25 JCoto wrote:On December 03 2014 01:39 Existor wrote:On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote:
I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Disagree. Protoss: open stargate to counter banshees. oracle can reveal cloaked banshees for some time. And you have phoenixes / stalkers. Zerg: ravager, queens, merged hydralisk upgrades. Terran: widow mines, cyclones, thors, marines. Timings & detection is the problemBTW, so you are saying that if Terran goes for gas = Stargate opener? Gateway openers are dead if terran goes gas then. Also take in account that with new revelation, protoss has only access to a reveal once every 2 minutes, so defense against successive banshees would make things tighter. Oracle cost is quite high, Stalkers are not that cheap and not that massable in the early game. Protoss AA early game is no way as powerful as other races, mainly because the units and turrets can't be emergency repaired. That's another reason that makes their turret (cannon) much weaker than Zerg's or Terran's. Now banshees are already strong openers, but really easy to scout. But problably in LotV it won't be so easy as Terran has more gas units and vs a terran you can't count pylons to know is something is being proxied, neither press a button to reveal enemy base or cloaked units. And this applies to Zerg and Toss scouting. As I said yesterday (see post), this banshee change should be reviewed once the economy is changed, so we can study timings. If ordinary builds allows all races to have a relatively easy time defending cloak banshees, there should be no problem. If not, maybe the advantage should be reviewed. I don't understand this post :|, yes bansee should be reviewed, but not only banshees, everything should be reviewed since we don't really know how this would play out, I thing overall your opinions are not well focused, we should focus on design and how the new things work, instead of timings and viability of strategies, as you should know everything is most likely already different in Blizzards testing to what we have at the mods, so talking about timings and openers is kinda silly, the stats can be reworked. You should focus on the concept more, what do you like or dislike about the banshee as it is, instead of saying how it will affect builds and timings that don't even exist yet. Again, I want to clarify that I'm not against the change, because we'll have to wait for a defined economy model to think about the impact and rush value of things. But I wanted to point that yes, times matter, because they also define the strength of a unit. Design not only involves theorical design, but also real application. If we have the idea of buffing a unit that it's already quite strong, we should also think how this could affect real game. I think that we should aim for flexibility and fun in LotV, making the game less rigid and strict (which is not the same as demanding). And thus I dislike everything that could be too rush-friendly/timing-friendly. I also think that oracles should have slightly higher energy consumption with the beam on to reduce a bit its aggresive use early, or reducing damage in exchange for more shields. And I also think that it coud be a reasonable time to introduce the Medium armor and rework some unit interactions.
What if this extension mod was combined with this extension mod - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/471776-mod-double-harvesting-better-saturation-curve so that we could forcibly test theories the community has about BW-esque mining and the value of expanding? From the few games I've watched of this extension, they seem to just stay on low economy and cycle through the bases, without having much dynamism to their play, or they just play defensive macro games and mine out the map and then do one final large battle, but maybe 10 to 15 minutes earlier than would happen in HotS. I'm interested to see if "the" solution can be tested via this unique opportunity that attracts so many players who wouldn't normally kowtow to extensions, but are excited by the prospect of playing with the announced LotV changes.
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On December 03 2014 16:11 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2014 11:23 JCoto wrote:On December 03 2014 05:57 Lexender wrote:On December 03 2014 02:25 JCoto wrote:On December 03 2014 01:39 Existor wrote:On December 02 2014 03:01 JCoto wrote:
I don't agree with banshees having the cloak upgrade built in and +range by default. Too much. It will be destructive in every matchup. Disagree. Protoss: open stargate to counter banshees. oracle can reveal cloaked banshees for some time. And you have phoenixes / stalkers. Zerg: ravager, queens, merged hydralisk upgrades. Terran: widow mines, cyclones, thors, marines. Timings & detection is the problemBTW, so you are saying that if Terran goes for gas = Stargate opener? Gateway openers are dead if terran goes gas then. Also take in account that with new revelation, protoss has only access to a reveal once every 2 minutes, so defense against successive banshees would make things tighter. Oracle cost is quite high, Stalkers are not that cheap and not that massable in the early game. Protoss AA early game is no way as powerful as other races, mainly because the units and turrets can't be emergency repaired. That's another reason that makes their turret (cannon) much weaker than Zerg's or Terran's. Now banshees are already strong openers, but really easy to scout. But problably in LotV it won't be so easy as Terran has more gas units and vs a terran you can't count pylons to know is something is being proxied, neither press a button to reveal enemy base or cloaked units. And this applies to Zerg and Toss scouting. As I said yesterday (see post), this banshee change should be reviewed once the economy is changed, so we can study timings. If ordinary builds allows all races to have a relatively easy time defending cloak banshees, there should be no problem. If not, maybe the advantage should be reviewed. I don't understand this post :|, yes bansee should be reviewed, but not only banshees, everything should be reviewed since we don't really know how this would play out, I thing overall your opinions are not well focused, we should focus on design and how the new things work, instead of timings and viability of strategies, as you should know everything is most likely already different in Blizzards testing to what we have at the mods, so talking about timings and openers is kinda silly, the stats can be reworked. You should focus on the concept more, what do you like or dislike about the banshee as it is, instead of saying how it will affect builds and timings that don't even exist yet. Again, I want to clarify that I'm not against the change, because we'll have to wait for a defined economy model to think about the impact and rush value of things. But I wanted to point that yes, times matter, because they also define the strength of a unit. Design not only involves theorical design, but also real application. If we have the idea of buffing a unit that it's already quite strong, we should also think how this could affect real game. I think that we should aim for flexibility and fun in LotV, making the game less rigid and strict (which is not the same as demanding). And thus I dislike everything that could be too rush-friendly/timing-friendly. I also think that oracles should have slightly higher energy consumption with the beam on to reduce a bit its aggresive use early, or reducing damage in exchange for more shields. And I also think that it coud be a reasonable time to introduce the Medium armor and rework some unit interactions. What if this extension mod was combined with this extension mod - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/471776-mod-double-harvesting-better-saturation-curve so that we could forcibly test theories the community has about BW-esque mining and the value of expanding? From the few games I've watched of this extension, they seem to just stay on low economy and cycle through the bases, without having much dynamism to their play, or they just play defensive macro games and mine out the map and then do one final large battle, but maybe 10 to 15 minutes earlier than would happen in HotS. I'm interested to see if "the" solution can be tested via this unique opportunity that attracts so many players who wouldn't normally kowtow to extensions, but are excited by the prospect of playing with the announced LotV changes.
Yeah, I like the idea. I think that if you add maybe some mineral more patches and adjust gas mining, a BW like economy is not so bad. The problem is that low econ favors more some races in terms of felixiblity. But the concept just sounds fine, because it's a way to diversify economy and add the tactitcal benefit if having bases.
I think they should aim for that type of Broodwar/Starbow like economy, and of course, tweaking some unit costs to make the game more flexible according to a new econ. That's another problem they have to face: an already economy stablished meta. Maybe they could apply this type of mod with maybe some increase on mining per trip/mining/smart worker rotation time so in the end, you get a (quite) low reduction of total mining, but you get a benefit of having low cout of workers per base (around 12). I would even cut 1 worker per gas, mantaining more or less gas mining ratio, and reducing base building costs/times a bit. Let's play the RTS game.
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I massed the alpha last night with some of my gm terran and protoss friends.
Feels like a whole new game, in a good way (sc3)
There are brand new cheeses (my friend walled off with a 2 gate at nat choke, and was able to 2 gate rush me WHILE taking a nat and playing normally, Sick)
The game is VERY fast pace, feels like BW honestly, action all the time. in fact, I think I was on 5 base vs his 3, and I never got over 140 supply?
And the main runs dry, like around 12 min. So you can't just forever all in off 2 base.
The change is amazing
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When grouping Lurkers and Ravagers:
1. Lurkers have priority; not sure if this should be because...
2. The hotkey for both Lurkers' "hold fire" and Ravagers' "Corrosive Bile" is F. So if I have my both units in one group, I can accidentally hold fire, when I'm wanting to attack. Seems really counter intuitive. Maybe Hold Fire should be on a different key? Like H?
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Couple of things I noticed that seem like bugs:
I was playing on one of the maps, maybe it was the divide? And there is a small pillar near the 4th base or whatever above bottom right. You can land units up there, i dunno if this was on purpose.
Anyway, the bug was I put a lurker there. Then I started dropping all kinds of units up there. I found what I think is a bug where you can have multiple units burrowed in the same space (this is not a mechanic in sc2 even though it was in BW). Might have to do with the way a lurker is coded to burrow priority or something? Or maybe something to do with the ravager as well?
PS- the units dont all burrow and unburrow on the same press, you have to tab through them)
I put ravagers, infestors, lurker and some lings all burrowed up on that pillar, I probably could have done more.
The 2nd thing is what I think is a bug with the cyclone. The lock on attack says it's the same attack speed in the tooltip, however when you lock on it starts shooting super fast and you can basically kill anything early game for a few minutes before having to go home to repair.
PS- the way units burrow in this game has always been pretty retarded. They fumble around trying to find their own spot in the same way units fumble around when you target something large. Sometimes they don't even burrow in a timely manner.
I think blizzard needs to fix that issue and allow lurkers to burrow on top of anything and not block roaches burrow moving etc.
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The ravager seems overpowered.
You can fit 4 of them in an overlord and the spell it casts is on a short cool down. So you can constantly harass with them and explode units every 3 seconds almost indefinitely. Best application is on the refinery/workers going in/out since even if it misses you will eventually burn it down.
back in the alpha on WOL reapers had a similar spell where they would throw a timed bomb. I think I saw boxer or someone using this and just annihilating everything. It got changed shortly there after.
Proposed changes: 2 per overlord, increase the cooldown or change it to a mana cost. So as to not get owned by feedback too much, perhaps make the mana cap on them like 45 or something and the spell cost 15. As it is now, it hard couters Forcefields too much anyway. FF cost way more and 1 ravager can absorb infinite mana from sentries without tiring out.
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Tempest seem to be broken, Way too much life for their move speed and that ability has no mana cost and a short cooldown, as well as being able to be used to snipe bldgs and ground units.
Guy can snipe your queens and spire before it finishes, kill your spores for his oracles that came earlier, etc.
Hydras are no use because it just outruns them with it's 500 HP or whatever.
Even if you tried to get burrow and ambush him or something he could just come with an ob if he's smart.
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Also carriers are pretty hard for zerg to deal with if they just throw their interceptors out and run away. Zerg has no darkswarm like they had in bw to deal with mass air from protoss.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On December 04 2014 20:23 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Also carriers are pretty hard for zerg to deal with if they just throw their interceptors out and run away. Zerg has no darkswarm like they had in bw to deal with mass air from protoss.
But they have agressive mutation to give +5 damage to hydralisks.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On December 04 2014 16:03 MarlieChurphy wrote:
The ravager seems overpowered.
You can fit 4 of them in an overlord and the spell it casts is on a short cool down. So you can constantly harass with them and explode units every 3 seconds almost indefinitely. Best application is on the refinery/workers going in/out since even if it misses you will eventually burn it down.
back in the alpha on WOL reapers had a similar spell where they would throw a timed bomb. I think I saw boxer or someone using this and just annihilating everything. It got changed shortly there after.
Proposed changes: 2 per overlord, increase the cooldown or change it to a mana cost. So as to not get owned by feedback too much, perhaps make the mana cap on them like 45 or something and the spell cost 15. As it is now, it hard couters Forcefields too much anyway. FF cost way more and 1 ravager can absorb infinite mana from sentries without tiring out.
Ravager was already fixed in next patch. Current aoe radius of corrosive bile is wrong and not same as on blizzcon. And no, we are not doing any proposed, suggested, fanmade, etc changes. Only those that we're trying to extract from the videos, playtesting at Blizzcon build and showmatches.
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i cant download any of them and get stuck at 11%...
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On December 05 2014 01:27 cpower wrote:
i cant download any of them and get stuck at 11%...
change to EU server, download it there, then come back to NA....unless your playing on EU already, then I cant help you. NA server has trouble with downloading
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Glad that Blizzard acknowledged this and are spreading the "news" about this mod. 
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Yay Blizzard!
Any news when they are releasing the Beta version?
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I was playing with Desrow. On game 4, he massed disruptors. On my end, they look the same when activated and when they are in DEATH MODE.
Is that how they were in Blizzcon? Because I had to guess to to attack and split, which is nearly impossible.
There was one halarious moment when I ganked one into my army with a viper... T T
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On December 05 2014 03:34 EndOfLineTv wrote:
I was playing with Desrow. On game 4, he massed disruptors. On my end, they look the same when activated and when they are in DEATH MODE.
Is that how they were in Blizzcon? Because I had to guess to to attack and split, which is nearly impossible.
There was one halarious moment when I ganked one into my army with a viper... T T
at the very least there is a speed change (2.75 to 3.75 I believe) but I would imagine its not intended for the animation to be unseen in death mode
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On December 05 2014 03:34 EndOfLineTv wrote:
Is that how they were in Blizzcon? Because I had to guess to to attack and split, which is nearly impossible.
No, current disruptors are not exactly same as they were in videos and showmatches. But I can say that next update will recorrect many stats so they will look and act closer to what we saw whenever they were shown.
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On December 05 2014 03:34 EndOfLineTv wrote:
I was playing with Desrow. On game 4, he massed disruptors. On my end, they look the same when activated and when they are in DEATH MODE.
Is that how they were in Blizzcon? Because I had to guess to to attack and split, which is nearly impossible.
There was one halarious moment when I ganked one into my army with a viper... T T
Can you tell me your graphic settings? You should at least see the plates around the Disruptor change from gold to transparent blue. This is the first report of this problem so I'll try to run a few tests and see what I can improve.
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Hey guys, weren't the hydralisk speed and range upgrades merged together in the Blizzcon build? Because I'm sure I read that somewhere.
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EPT
